“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

Thinking of swiping right on a colleague? Find out with Kelli and Nolan if workplace romance is worth the potential awkward elevator rides and why mixing power and passion is a recipe for corporate disaster.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

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KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro

(01:16) Workplace Relationships

(03:01) Why Dating Within Reporting Chain is Improper

(05:17) Company Policies on Office Relationships

(09:15) Hypothetical: CEO Dating a Junior Employee

(09:33) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(13:31) Leaders Dating Employees from Different Departments

(16:18) Disclosing Relationships Between Colleagues

(18:29) Handling Unwanted Advances from Coworkers

(19:02) The One-Ask Rule

(20:04) Codifying Relationship Policies

(21:38) Wrap

You've got your daily team, the folks you work with every day, but then there's the executive squad. Patrick Lencioni’s "Five Dysfunctions of a Team" says that should be your true loyalty, but how does that translate into practice? Nolan and Kelli talk about navigating those tricky waters and avoiding toxic team vibes when the big boss throws down some tough choices.

Explore how HR pros can keep things from blowing up when the executive team calls the shots.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED BOOK:

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable by Patrick M. Lencioni

https://www.amazon.com/Five-Dysfunctions-Team-Leadership-Fable/dp/0787960756

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The "First Team" Concept

(01:09) Balancing Executive and Functional Teams

(03:07) Importance of Organizational Alignment

(05:58) Handling Team Disagreements with Executive Decisions

(07:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:02) Avoiding Toxic Leadership Behaviors

(11:44) Explaining Decisions to Teams

(13:52) Value of Transparency in Leadership

(15:11) Addressing Team Members' Concerns

(17:01) Managing Team Turnover and Succession Planning

(18:06) Preventing and Addressing Team Toxicity

(18:36) Wrap

Is context switching hurting your HR productivity? Kelli and Nolan talk about how leaders effectively navigate multiple roles and explore practical techniques for maximizing productivity in HR to build an adaptable team.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED:

Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) Challenges of Multiple Roles

(01:45) Navigating Different Relationships

(03:14) Setting Boundaries in Conversations

(04:49) Balancing Work and Personal Life

(05:36) Building a Strong, Adaptable Team

(07:52) Maximizing Meeting Effectiveness

(08:50) Prioritizing Tasks and Self-Care

(09:00) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:36) Reducing Digital Distractions

(11:33) Better Meetings

(12:14) The Power of Phone Calls

(14:33) Walking and Talking

(15:45) Wrap

US white-collar promotions are down 24% in Q1 2024, with a near 50% drop since 2022. What does this mean for employees and the job market?

Kelli and Nolan discuss causes, including pandemic effects and company restructuring, and talk about strategies for retention and career growth in a restructured, doer-focused workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK:

Report: Promotions disappeared in Q1 2024

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction and Welcome

(00:16) Promotion Data Analysis

(01:15) Discussion on Promotion Trends

(03:49) Impact of Economic Changes on Promotions

(06:39) Future of Job Market and AI

(07:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(09:55) Continued Discussion on AI and Job Market

(16:27) Final Thoughts and Advice

(16:43) Wrap

Guissu Baier, a talent expert at General Catalyst who navigated the treacherous waters of startup equity compensation at Instacart, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich challenging conventional wisdom about refresh grants, and revealing that most companies lack a clear strategy.

Is it time to ditch the old-school "wait and see" approach and embrace a more performance-driven model?

Listen to Guissu, Kelli and Nolan as they offer insights into how to bridge the gap and foster collaboration between legal and HR teams.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network:

https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH GUISSU, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Guissu: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guissu/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

General Catalyst:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/

General Catalyst's Equity Refresh Survey:

https://www.generalcatalyst.com/perspectives/equity-refresh-survey-2024

Related Podcast:

How Big Should Your Org Grow

https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/how-big-should-your-org-grow

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Key Findings of the Equity Refresh Survey

(06:03) Treating Equity as Carefully as Cash

(07:11) Vesting Schedules and Equity as a Long-Term Incentive

(08:23) The Debate on Vesting Cliffs in Refresh Grants

(09:46)The Logic and Challenges of Refresh Grants

(11:43) The Importance of Paying for Performance

(14:34) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:40) Challenges in Designing Equity Refresh Programs

(19:07) Different Approaches to Refresh Grants

(25:24) Retaining Top Performers

(28:51) Connecting New Hire and Refresh Ranges

(29:25) Equity Choice and Fairness

(30:49) Equity Trade-Offs and Innovation

(32:57) Collaboration between HR and Other Departments

(37:11) Facilitation as a Key Skill for HR Leaders

(40:28) Branding and Executive Involvement in Training

(43:30) The Reputation of Lawyers in the HR Profession

(44:54) Risk Calculus and Cultural Risk

(46:02) Communication as a Key to Problem Solving

(47:37) One-Way Door and Two-Way Door Decisions

(47:55) Wrap

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk about ‘Founder Mode’ a concept coined by YC founder Paul Graham in a recent essay — based on a talk by Brian Chesky, founder of Airbnb. They discuss how founders feel gaslit by advice to delegate without micromanaging, and that the right approach IS a ruthlessly hands-on approach. The hosts explore the tension founders face between maintaining control and trusting hires, emphasizing the need for empathy. This is a sign that the paradigm is shifting, and all business leaders need to adjust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK:

Founder Mode https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) What is Founder Mode?

(03:59) Empathy for Founders

(04:54) The Role of Executives and Operators

(07:19) Blending Founder and Manager Mindsets

(09:56) Defensiveness and Personal Growth

(11:45) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:50) Kelli’s Best Take Ever?

Dr. Vijay Pendakur, DEI expert, author, and principal and founder of Vijay Pendakur Consulting, joins Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich to discuss the current pushback against DEI, the future of the movement, and how companies can find success in a shifting landscape.

How can companies foster inclusion while avoiding divisiveness and proving business value?

Vijay, Kelli and Nolan candidly discuss the future of corporate diversity initiatives amid pushback and the search for measurable ROI, and exchange ideas for how to evolve diversity initiatives for impact.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

🔥 Apply to join over 400 Founders and Execs in the Turpentine Network: https://www.turpentinenetwork.co/

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VIJAY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Vijay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaypendakur

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

“Closing the Opportunity Gap”

https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Opportunity-Gap-Identity-Conscious-Strategies/dp/1620363127

Watch out for “The Alchemy of Talent: Leading Teams to Peak Performance” available for pre-order: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Talent-Leading-Teams-Performance/dp/B0DCHB9RYZ/ref=sr[…]d=1724904614&refinements=p_27%3AVijay+Pendakur&s=books&sr=1-1

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:28) Current state of DEI and recent pushback from various sectors

(03:12) Analysis of DEI investment timeline and systemic unfairness

(05:26) Higher education's response to DEI legislation and demographic shifts

(08:38) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(09:58) Challenges in measuring DEI progress and impact

(12:48) Misunderstandings and Semantics

(17:55) Corporate vs. Social DEI

(22:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(26:38) Scope of care in corporations and how COVID impacted DEI initiatives

(35:12) Challenges in measuring DEI impact and focus on hiring metrics

(40:41) Team effectiveness and the role of inclusion in high-performance teams

(45:00) Impact of diversity on team performance and manager effectiveness

(50:25) Future of DEI programs and evolving role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

(53:38) Reframing DEI for business performance and organizational effectiveness

(55:00) Discussion on colorblindness and meritocracy in business contexts

(57:03) Critique of MEI framework and the need for ongoing DEI interventions

(58:10) Wrap

Today Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich tackle knowing when it's time to leave a job -- considering factors such as energy levels, learning opportunities, and impact. They cover the art of giving notice, protecting your financial interests, and nurturing professional connections when moving to a new opportunity.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:55) Recognizing It's Time to Leave(03:54) The Importance of Networking and Taking Recruiter Calls(06:57) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo(09:59) Job Tenure and Career Narratives(12:53) How to Put in Notice(16:55) Sponsor: Metaview(18:55) Vesting and Financial Considerations When Leaving(19:53) Maintaining Relationships After Leaving a Company(22:53) Closing Thoughts and Lessons Learned(23:01) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church sits down with Valentina Gissin, former Head of Talent at Bridgewater and current Chief People Officer at Garner.

Valentina shares the lasting lessons and people practices from working under Ray Dalio at Bridgewater, Garner's unique approach to the interview process, and her approach to hybrid work, manager training, L&D, and performance reviews. Valentina offers an absolute masterclass in innovating hiring and people strategies.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

KEEP UP WITH VALENTINA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Valentina: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinagissin

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Garner Health: https://www.getgarner.com/

Principles by Ray Dalio: https://www.principles.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Valentina's Experience at Bridgewater

(01:27) Dot Collector and Feedback System

(09:38) Managing Hybrid Work Environments

(11:27) Commitment to Remote Work and Hybrid Teams

(16:21) Managing Global and Synchronous Work

(18:15) Sponsor: Planful | Workvivo

(20:03) Improving Interview Training through Recording

(22:06) Getting and Giving Signal in the Interview Process

(25:38) The Correlation Between Structured Critical Thinking Questions and Successful Performance

(28:18) Creating a Feedback Culture at Garner

(30:49) Sponsor: Metaview

(31:03) The Role of Performance Reviews in Compensation and Data Gathering

(36:21) Using Real-World Simulations in Manager Training

(45:55) Designing a Function for Difficult Performance Situations at Garner

(46:16) Wrap

In this HR Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about "back channels" in the hiring process.

They dive deep into this controversial practice and how back channels can impact candidate selection, emphasizing the need for a thoughtful, mature approach that considers the full context of a candidate's experience and potential.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to http://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) - Intro

(00:54) - Defining back channels as "underground mafia" of feedback 

(01:52) - The right way to do back channeling 

(03:03) - Maturity in back channeling conversations 

(04:12) - When to do back channeling

(05:43) - Avoiding the "back channeling frenzy" 

(06:42) - Timing of back channeling in the hiring process 

(07:55) - Sponsors - Planful | Workvivo

(10:48) - How to properly conduct a back channel inquiry 

(12:04) - Sponsor - Metaview

(13:40) - Typical back channel communication methods 

(14:50) - Real example of a nuanced back channel situation 

(15:59) - The "family reunion" analogy for bias in back channels 

(17:18) - Importance of considering human growth in back channels 

(18:31) - Handling negative back channel feedback 

(20:05) - Using back channel feedback as a litmus test for candidates 

(20:53) - Criticism of board members' approach to back channels 

(21:51) - Shallowness in high-level back channel feedback 

(22:45) - Wrap