This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NEIL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Neil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-frye-he-him-54755319/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Dotmatics:

http://www.dotmatics.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) Neil's Executive Search Journey

(02:46) The Candidate Perspective: Why Neil Withdraws from Searches

(04:18) Using AI to Level Up Interview Confidence

(05:18) The Danger of Always Having Answers

(06:30) Executive Search as Matchmaking

(08:25) Defining Non-Negotiables Before You Start

(10:50) Don't Mistake Polish for Fit

(13:25) Pushing Back on Development Stories

(13:35) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:00) Building Executive Search from the CPO Side

(18:56) Internal vs External Search: The 90% Rule

(20:38) The Network Test for External Firms

(22:00) Conscious Leadership Framework

(25:25) Style Compatibility in Executive Hiring

(29:32) The Tactile Learning CEO Pattern

(33:18) Candidate Due Diligence Strategies

(34:21) Requesting More Interview Panel Members

(36:12) Real-World Work Examples

(37:14) Time and Relationships Trump Speed

(39:26) Building Budgets Before Accepting Offers

(40:48) Final Advice: Stop Waiting to Be Picked

(41:22) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in corporate environments, offering rare insider perspective on Silicon Valley's operational realities.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BAZ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Baz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Electric Capital:

https://www.electriccapital.com/

Link to Baz’s LinkedIn post about getting demoted in Facebook:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767_7-years-into-my-time-at-facebook-i-was-demoted-activity-7321208807441731587-8SYh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:59) The Demotion Story Begins

(04:00) The Emotional Reality

(06:00) Finding the Right Replacement

(07:59) Learning What You Love vs. Loathe

(10:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:58) Demoting Yourself Again: The Christine Ellis Story

(19:03) What Makes Great Leaders

(22:21) The Reality Check: Not Everyone Can Do This

(27:59) Self-Awareness and Ego Management

(35:24) Meta's COVID Hiring Spree

(42:08) The Layoffs: What Really Happened

(51:37) DEI Programs: From Helpful to Distracting

(57:41) Wrap

This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives.

NOTE: Kelli is away this week spending time with family

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Link to Glen’s LinkedIn Post:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/glenevans_startups-leadership-workculture-activity-7328919826930814976-pEy7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:31) 996 Culture Invades Silicon Valley

(01:23) Greylock's Brutal Take

(04:06) Does More Hours Equal More Productivity?

(05:35) No Substitute For Time

(07:18) My DoorDash Grind Days

(08:30) Why I Can't Do It Anymore

(10:06) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:06) The 24-Year-Old Founders Story

(14:15) "Don't Hire Me, I'm Too Old"

(15:30) I Actually Miss Those Days

(16:33) Life Is Trade-offs

(16:55) The In-Person Only Founder

(18:47) Humans Need Pain To Grow

(19:12) Rule Breakers Build The Future

(19:30) Appreciate Founder Honesty

(19:53) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.

Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing as a separate "nice-to-have" function.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH Fidelma, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Fidelma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidelmabutler/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Couchbase:

https://www.couchbase.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) The L&D Challenge at Scale

(01:19) Tailoring L&D to Your Organization

(03:00) Defining Good Leadership

(06:00) Creating Leadership Language and Framework

(08:00) Why L&D Struggles - Making Squishy Things Tangible

(10:00) Meeting People Where They Are

(12:00) Optimizing L&D for Top Performers

(16:32) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(19:30) Engagement Surveys Done Right

(25:00) When Surveys Conflict with Leadership Vision

(28:00) Leaders Teaching Leaders

(31:30) Coaching Strategy and Deployment

(35:30) The Future of L&D Roles

(39:30) Getting Career Development Wrong

(42:30) The Promotion Obsession Problem

(46:00) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Forshay: https://forshay.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:58) What Forge Does

(02:33) Trust Barriers in Fractional Work

(03:25) The Relational Approach

(04:36) Buyer Mindset Challenges

(06:10) Marketplaces vs. Agents

(10:00) The Adverse Selection Problem

(10:56) The Dirty Secret of Fractional

(11:45) Different Interview Approach

(13:03) Consulting Background Advantage

(13:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:57) The Ideal Buyer

(17:26) Early vs. Late Stage Company Challenges

(18:24) CFOs Make Better Clients

(18:59) Transparent Pricing Model

(21:41) Hourly Rate Guidelines

(22:41) W2 vs. 1099 Considerations

(23:27) The Honeymoon Phase

(24:52) Managing Client Expectations

(26:46) Beyond Filling Open Roles

(29:08) The Assessment Process

(34:29) Evolution from Interim to Fractional

(37:05) Advice for New Fractional Execs

(38:15) The Black Hole Complaint

(40:11) Career Self-Management

(42:11) Sustaining a 15-Year Business

(43:06) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional status influence our responses to professional missteps

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK TO NOLAN’S POST:

Community Regulation When People Break Social Etiquette

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:16) When LinkedIn Goes Nuclear: The Time Management Debate

(02:05) How Your Day Affects Your Tolerance

(04:14) Different Cultures, Different Rules: Looker vs Google Time Ethics

(07:48) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:48) The Mother Test: When Accountability Matters Most

(11:21) Calendar Hijacking: When Professional Boundaries Get Crossed

(13:08) Societal Rot or Personal Standards? The Unwritten Rules Debate

(15:34) Finding Your Boundary Line

(16:14) What's Your Unwritten Rule?

(16:22) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com, who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully designed retreats drive organizational alignment, build trust between teammates, and provide measurable business value beyond just logistics.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH JARED, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jared: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredkleinert

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Offsite: https://marketplace.offsite.com/inquiry?utm=hrheretics

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:47) Offsite's Business Model and Vision

(02:17) Remote Work Trends and Offsite Planning

(04:49) Elements of a Successful Offsite

(09:38) Measuring Offsite ROI and Effectiveness

(14:00) Adapting Offsites During Economic Downturns

(16:26) Sponsors Planful | Metaview

(19:52) Strategic Offsite Planning and Best Practices

(26:46) Balancing Team Building and Business Performance

(30:34) Executive Offsite Tactics and Trust Building

(34:04) Pre-Offsite Preparation and Intention Setting

(37:15) Wrap

In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:52) Being Smart about Equity

(01:46) Nolan's $8 Million Mistake

(03:05) Understanding Share Count

(04:44) Strike Price Explained

(06:00) Preferred Price vs. Strike Price

(07:43) Net Value Calculation

(08:42) Golden Handcuffs Reality

(10:31) Exercise Windows

(12:00) Negotiation Opportunities

(12:26) Tax Implications

(14:07) Early Exercise Benefits

(15:09) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(18:09) Additional Negotiation Tactics

(19:57) Executive Liquidity Options

(21:32) Double Trigger Provisions

(23:12) Vesting Schedule Negotiation

(24:00) Key Takeaways

(24:37) Personal Responsibility

(26:08) Resources & Research

(27:01) Final Thoughts

(27:23) Wrap

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:33) The CEO AI Mandate Trend

(01:22) Siadhal's Take on AI Mandates

(02:35) AI Orchestration as a Career Necessity

(03:00) Headcount Management in the AI Era

(04:04) AI Leverage vs. Team Size

(06:03) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(08:13) AI Upskilling and Education

(09:21) Personal AI Tuition in Organizations

(10:18) The Reflexive AI Problem-Solving Approach

(11:27) Show and Tell: Learning from Power Users

(12:00) Knowing What's Possible as Motivation

(13:22) Carrot vs. Stick: Recognizing AI Adoption

(14:38) Beyond AI as a Metric: Performance is the Goal

(15:34) Wrap

(15:58) Sponsor: Metaview

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan unpacks the intricacies of 360 reviews from a management perspective, offering pragmatic approaches to synthesizing overwhelming feedback data. They contrast methodical theme-based analysis with modern AI-assisted solutions, emphasizing that meaningful feedback isn't an annual crucible but a continuous conversation peppered with five compliments per criticism.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:36) Dear Heretics - 360 Reviews Question

(00:52) Good vs Bad 360 Reviews

(06:34) Sponsors - Planful | Metaview

(09:34) Using AI for 360 Reviews

(11:38) On Using AI Tools

(13:27) Sports Analogy Break

(14:45) Getting the Ball Rolling

(15:22) Continuous Feedback Approach

(17:21) 5:1 Positive Ratio

(17:59) Explaining the Why in Feedback

(19:20) Making Feedback Enjoyable

(19:26) Wrap