Dear Heretics is back! Kelli and Nolan explore strategic board engagement for people leaders, covering presentation frameworks, relationship building, and navigating the delicate balance between board influence and CEO loyalty.

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talk to David Heinemeier Hansson (aka DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-owner & CTO of 37signals. He critiques DEI implementation and workplace wokeness, advocates political neutrality at work, and outlines his organizational philosophy emphasizing minimal management, creative constraints, and HR as leadership firewall.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:48) Dear Heretics: The Board Question

(01:15) There Is No Best Practice

(02:38) Know Your Level (Don't Be 27 at DoorDash)

(03:49) If You Don't Set Strategy, Someone Else Will

(05:34) The Carta Framework: Show Value, Ask for Help

(06:30) Earn the Right Through Your CEO

(07:28) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:00) Board Presentation Framework

(11:00) Run It Like a Business: The QBR Method

(11:51) Building Board Relationships: Start Early

(13:00) They're Just F*cking People

(14:00) Board Members Are Your Career Funnel

(15:50) Start With One: The Relationship Strategy

(17:16) The Loyalty Warning: Team CEO, Period

(19:32) Wrap

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talk to David Heinemeier Hansson (aka DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-owner & CTO of 37signals. He critiques DEI implementation and workplace wokeness, advocates political neutrality at work, and outlines his organizational philosophy emphasizing minimal management, creative constraints, and HR as leadership firewall.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH DHH, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

DHH: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-heinemeier-hansson-374b18221/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Ruby on Rails: https://rubyonrails.org/

37signals: https://37signals.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:34) "I Want My Code to Sing": Why Programming Is Poetry

(04:35) How We Built a Company That Runs Itself

(07:34) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(08:34) The 40-Hour Work Week That Silicon Valley Hates

(11:05) The Remote Work Wars: Why Both Sides Are Wrong

(15:14) "No Politics at Work": The Two Weeks That Changed Everything

(17:00) How Wokeness Held Corporate America Hostage

(22:16) The Hardest Two Weeks of My Professional Life

(25:28) The DEI Deception: Why Equity Isn't Equality

(27:40) Why HR People Don't Suck (And Founders Need Them)

(31:00) Final Thoughts: People Go Crazy When Work Is Everything

(33:35) Wrap

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talked to Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's first hired CHRO. Steve dissects LinkedIn's hypergrowth challenges, contrarian HR principles, and the fundamental shift from acquiring to developing talent internally.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Steve: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cadigan

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Metaview 10x Podcast: https://www.metaview.ai/resources/10x-recruiting

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) LinkedIn's Identity Crisis: When Your Product Is Your Problem

(02:40) The Million-Dollar Question: "Why Would Anyone Want to Work Here?"

(04:35) HR's Only Two Products: Judgment and Credibility

(05:00) The Performance Review Rebellion

(05:16) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(07:21) Jeff Weiner's Intensity Philosophy: "I Live Off Chaos"

(08:10) The Vulnerability Breakthrough: How a CEO Learned to Inspire

(10:15) The Ownership Revolution: Why Leadership Teams Must Own HR

(11:15) Remote Work Reality Check: "We Don't Know Yet"

(12:00) Blitz Scaling Failures: Inheritors vs. Builders

(13:43) The Perfectionist's Trap: "Do You Hear All Those Balls Dropping?"

(14:20) Why He'll Never Return: The Six-Year-Old's Question That Changed Everything

(15:27) Future of Work: From Buy Talent to Build Talent Economy

Kelli and Nolan critically examine employee engagement surveys, arguing they're performative exercises for disconnected executives rather than meaningful tools for understanding and improving workplace sentiment.

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Dave Margulius discussing Quizlet's remarkable 18-year journey from a bootstrapped startup founded with teenage co-founders to a globally successful education platform, sharing insights on building company culture, managing young talent, transitioning from founder to board member, and maintaining mission-driven values while achieving sustainable growth.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Related article:https://www.businessinsider.com/att-ceo-memo-workplace-loyalty-dead-employees-job-security-2025-8

Nolan's Linkedin post:https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nolan-church_when-can-we-eliminate-employee-engagement[…]m=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:50) The 73% Response Rate That Changed Nothing

(02:18) Devil's Advocate: Why Companies Think They Need Surveys

(03:34) The Second Order Problem: Getting Data, Doing Nothing

(04:30) "Get Out of the Ivory Tower"

(05:28) Exit Interviews vs. Real Conversations

(06:41) The Employee Perspective: Anonymous Survey Skepticism

(07:37) The Performative Dance Exposed

(08:43) Surveys as Substitutes for Real Leadership

(09:13) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:41) Better Alternative: Executives in the Dirt

(13:25) The Venture Capital Leadership Model

(14:49) The Small Minority That Actually Cares

(15:40) The Semantics Problem: Stop Saying "Engagement"

(17:00) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Dave Margulius discussing Quizlet's remarkable 18-year journey from a bootstrapped startup founded with teenage co-founders to a globally successful education platform, sharing insights on building company culture, managing young talent, transitioning from founder to board member, and maintaining mission-driven values while achieving sustainable growth.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH DAVE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Dave: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davemargulius

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Quizlet: https://quizlet.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:00) The $5 Trillion Education Opportunity

(04:06) Meeting Andrew - The 17-Year-Old Co-Founder

(06:04) CEO Transitions and Early Career

(09:11) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(12:10) Building a Teenage Team

(16:03) Managing Young Talent and Pure Adrenaline

(19:17) The Shift to VC Funding

(22:15) Company Culture and Values

(26:19) Mission vs ROI Balance

(29:05) 18-Year Journey and Staying Competitive

(32:01) Employee Value Proposition and Liquidity

(35:00) Competition and Market Position

(36:06) Closing Thoughts

(37:27) Wrap

Today on HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli critically examine the effectiveness and limitations of traditional exit interviews as organizational diagnostic tools, questioning their performative nature and strategic value.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:42) The Performative Checkbox Problem

(01:38) The Fear Factor: Why Employees Won't Tell the Truth

(02:39) The Real Exit Interview

(04:06) The Drug Story: When Exit Interviews Actually Work

(06:06) The Diagnostic Fallacy

(07:18) The Neutral Feedback Myth

(08:47) The Art of Information Filtering

(10:35) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:43) The Future People Leader Debate

(16:49) Captain vs. Crew: Who Should Own These Problems?

(18:11) The Completely Incomplete Nature

(18:27) Wrap

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talk to Casey Woo, founder of Operators Guild, and explore the evolution of elite business operators—generalist executives who transcend traditional titles to solve complex problems at high-growth companies, featuring insights on AI disruption, and community building.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH CASEY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Casey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywoo

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Operators Guild: https://operators-guild.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:15) WeWork Experience: Working with Adam Neumann

(02:52) Key Lessons from WeWork

(04:18) Current Market Climate & AI Impact

(05:21) The AI Revolution in Customer Support

(07:00) AI Management & the "Iron Man" Approach

(07:31) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(10:38) The Unstoppable Nature of AI Adoption

(11:31) The Rise of the Operator: Casey's Personal Journey

(14:02) Operators Guild: From 9 to 900 Members

(14:20) The Four Operator Personas

(15:17) Why Titles Have "Screwed Us"

(15:35) The Navy SEALs Analogy

(16:27) Building Successful Communities

(17:55) Do You Ever Miss Operating?

(18:43) The Future Path: From Operator to Founder

(19:10) Breaking the Retirement Mindset

(19:56) Advice for Operators: Have Confidence

(21:28) The Power of Team Building

(22:00) The Next Level: Capital & Founding

(22:31) Wrap

Today on HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan analyze the controversial Windsurf acquisition prompted by Windsurf employee #2's explosive social media post about receiving only 1% equity payout despite Google's $2 billion deal, highlighting Silicon Valley's eroding compensation norms.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Prem's Bombshell Tweet

(01:32) The DeepMind vs Cognition Choice

(02:16) Clarifying the Exploding Offer

(04:15) Kelly's Google Looker Experience

(05:00) Why Contract Protections Don't Matter

(06:07) Leadership Accountability

(07:16) Silicon Valley's Broken Unwritten Rules

(08:38) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(11:37) Culture vs Money in Acquisitions

(13:00) First Principles: The New Acquisition Reality

(14:56) Gary Tan's Tone-Deaf Response

(15:41) The Chaos of Modern Tech

(17:00) The Power of Social Media Transparency

(17:49) Wrap-Up

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan do a deep dive into executive recruiting mastery with VC Andy Price, covering why exec hires fail, back-channeling strategies, post-hire support, and building scalable leadership teams.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH ANDY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Andy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyprice1/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:02) Why Executive Hit Rates Are So Low

(04:01) The Artisanal Process: "Soaking" with Companies

(05:21) Back-Channeling Strategy

(07:11) Recruiters Are Overpaid: The Real Work Happens After Hire

(08:24) When Not to Hire - Too Early Stage Warning Signs

(09:01) Sponsors: Planful & MetaView

(12:46) How to Vet Search Firms

(14:00) Experience vs. Trajectory

(16:17) Scaling Up and Comers

(17:30) Executive Career Management

(20:25) Executive Tenure: Why the "One Year BS" Doesn't Work

(22:36) The Authenticity Generation

(23:52) Wrap

Nolan and Kelli dive deep into the viral Astronomer scandal where the CEO and Chief People Officer were exposed having an affair during a Coldplay concert kiss cam moment. They examine the hypocrisy of executive leadership, the responsibilities that come with high-profile roles, and how this incident damages trust in HR leadership across the industry.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.

Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.

It only takes minutes to get up and running. Check it out!

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Opening & Context

(01:51) Initial Reactions

(05:11) The Hypocrisy Factor

(08:23) Leadership Responsibility

(10:00) Work-Life Integration

(15:58) Modern Visibility

(18:00) Hypothetical Solutions

(21:26) The Gwyneth Paltrow Response

(25:00) Impact on Employees

(26:00) Industry Implications

(30:14) Wrap