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What if faith and queerness weren’t at odds? What if a vibrant, affirming Christian life was not only possible for queer folks and their families, but deeply sacred? This week, In the Den, Sara continues a conversation with special guest Reverend Brandan Robertson,  a dynamic pastor, author, and thought leader at the forefront of LGBTQ+ inclusion in Christian spaces.

Special Guest: Reverend Brandan Robertson

Rev. Brandan Robertson is a noted author, activist, and public theologian, dedicated to exploring the intersections of spirituality, sexuality, and social justice. He serves as the Pastor of Sunnyside Reformed Church in New York City and is the founder and Executive Director of The Devout Foundation. Known as the "TikTok Pastor," Robertson's inclusive theological content reaches over 250,000 followers and has garnered 6 million views. He has authored 23 books, including the INDIES Book of the Year finalist True Inclusion. Robertson acquired a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry and Biblical Studies from Moody Bible Institute, an Master of Theological Study from Iliff School of Theology, and a Master of Arts in Political Science and Public Administration from Eastern Illinois University. He's presently pursuing a PhD in Biblical Studies at Drew University. He currently resides in New York City.

Links from the Show:

• Find Brandan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@revbrandanrobertson 
• Find Brandan’s website here: https://www.brandanrobertson.com/ 
• Gay Church: www.gaychurch.org 
• Find Brandan’s books in the Mama Dragons bookstore here: https://bookshop.org/beta-search?keywords=brandan 
• Brandan’s new book Queer & Christian: https://bookshop.org/p/books/queer-christian-reclaiming-the-bible-our-faith-and-our-place-at-the-table-brandan-robertson/21752396?ean=9781250321343&next=t 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

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Parenting a queer kid comes with so many questions. How do we support them? How do we help them find their community? And how do we make sure they know that no matter what, they are loved and they belong? Since 2010, the It Gets Better campaign has been a beacon of hope for LGBTQ+ youth, reminding them that they are not alone and that a brighter future is possible. What started as a viral video campaign has grown into a global movement, funding life-changing projects and empowering young people to create change in their own communities. This week In the Den, Sara visits with Brian Wenke, the Executive Director of It Gets Better, about empowerment, advocacy, and making sure the next generation of LGBTQ+ youth know they are seen, valued, and powerful.

Special Guest: Brian Wenke

Brian Wenke is the Executive Director of It Gets Better, the world’s largest storytelling effort for LGBTQ+ youth and a leading LGBTQ+ youth empowerment organization. Since 2016, he has led the global effort to uplift and inspire LGBTQ+ young people through storytelling, education, and community-building. Under his leadership, It Gets Better has expanded its reach across four continents and six major languages, leveraging corporate and institutional partnerships to connect with LGBTQ+ youth where they live, learn, and socialize.

Prior to It Gets Better, Brian raised over $25 million to address healthcare disparities (American Cancer Society), global conservation efforts (Greater Los Angeles Zoo Association), and affordable housing and access to the arts (Art Share LA). Brian is a proud alumnus of the University of Cincinnati, College-Conservatory of Music (BFA) and Brandman University (MBA). He currently resides in Los Angeles, California.

Links from the Show:

• It Gets Better on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@itgetsbetter
• It Gets Better on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/itgetsbetterproject 
• It Gets Better on IG: https://www.instagram.com/itgetsbetter/ 
• It Gets Better on FB: https://www.facebook.com/itgetsbetterproject/ 
• Apply to the It Gets Better Grant Program here: https://www.itgetsbetterchangemakers.org/ 
• Join Mama Dragons here: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.

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Today In the Den, we’re diving into a deeply personal and courageous journey—one that bridges faith, family, and the fight for LGBTQ+ equality. Gary and Millie Watts, parents to six children, were devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when their son Craig came out as gay. They chose to affirm and support their gay son in a time when there was no internet, no church support, and very little understanding.  They became forces for change on many fronts, including a years-long letter writing effort between Gary and top leaders of the LDS (Mormon) Church. Theirs is a beautiful story of love of faith and family. 

Special Guests: Gary and Millie Watts 

Gary Watts was born in 1940 in Logan, Utah, into a committed Mormon family. He attended Utah State University, where he was captain of the basketball team. After serving a two-year church mission in New Zealand, he married Mildred ‘Millie’ Cragun, his sweetheart since middle school. Gary then attended the University of Utah College of Medicine, graduating in 1968.

Millie Watts was born in 1941, also in Logan. Her dad was a well-known and popular family practice physician.

Gary worked for 35 years as a radiologist at the Utah Valley Regional Medical Center in Provo, Utah. He was president of the UVRMC medical staff in 1981-82, and president of the Utah Medical Foundation in 1988-89. Millie was involved in many activities, serving as president of the Provo PTA, president of the Utah County Medical Auxiliary, and president of her church’s primary education program three times. They have six children, two of whom are gay. 

Links from the Show: 

• Find Gary’s book Rainbow Letters here: https://bookshop.org/p/books/rainbow-letters-the-temerity-to-believe-gary-m-watts/18520161?ean=9798449218995&next=t
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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For many in our Mama Dragons community—and for queer folks in general—it can be hard to imagine a place for themselves within religion, and Christianity specifically, especially for those who have been shunned or hurt by their religious communities. Many have chosen to leave religion behind altogether, because it felt impossible to reconcile the theology you were taught with the deep love and support you feel for your queer kids. This week, In the Den, Sara visits with special guest Reverend Brandan Robertson about what it means to reclaim faith, challenge exclusionary narratives, and build a church that fully embraces authenticity, love, and belonging.

Special Guest: Reverend Brandan Robertson

Rev. Brandan Robertson is a noted author, activist, and public theologian, dedicated to exploring the intersections of spirituality, sexuality, and social justice. He serves as the Pastor of Sunnyside Reformed Church in New York City and is the founder and Executive Director of The Devout Foundation. Known as the "TikTok Pastor," Robertson's inclusive theological content reaches over 250,000 followers and has garnered 6 million views. He has authored 23 books, including the INDIES Book of the Year finalist True Inclusion. His work has been featured in TIME Magazine, CNN, and The Washington Post. Robertson is a sought-after speaker who regularly presents at prestigious platforms like The White House and Oxford University, continuing to inspire and challenge audiences around the world. Robertson acquired a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry and Biblical Studies from Moody Bible Institute, an Master of Theological Study from Iliff School of Theology, and a Master of Arts in Political Science and Public Administration from Eastern Illinois University. He's presently pursuing a PhD in Biblical Studies at Drew University. He currently resides in New York City.

Links from the Show:

• Find Brandan on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@revbrandanrobertson 
• Find Brandan’s website here: https://www.brandanrobertson.com/ 
• Gay Church: www.gaychurch.org 
• Find Brandan’s books in the Mama Dragons bookstore here: https://bookshop.org/contributors/brandan-robertson
• Brandan’s new book Queer & Christian: https://bookshop.org/p/books/queer-christian-reclaiming-the-bible-our-faith-and-our-place-at-the-table-brandan-robertson/21752396?aid=108866&ean=9781250321343&listref=in-the-den-podcast-featured-authors
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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Coming out as a transgender man in the late 1980s—before the internet, before mainstream conversations about gender identity, and before widespread access to information and affirming healthcare—Jamison Green found himself navigating a world where resources were scarce, and community was hard to find. Instead of being deterred, he became a guiding light and a leader in the fight for trans visibility and rights. Now, with his latest book, A History of Transgender Medicine, he takes us on a journey through the evolution of trans healthcare—chronicling the struggles, victories, and ongoing battles for equitable medical care. Today In the Den, we’ll explore Jamison’s incredible journey, the legacy of those who came before him, and the future he envisions for transgender rights and healthcare. 

Special Guest: Jamison Green

Jamison Green, Ph.D. is an author, educator, public speaker, independent legal scholar, and expert policy consultant in transgender health and employment discrimination litigation. He is best known for his influential book Becoming a Visible Man, first published in 2004 and updated in 2020. This work is considered a classic in transgender literature, offering valuable insights into the experiences of trans men. Dr. Green began working for transgender visibility and rights in San Francisco in 1994 when a newly implemented non-discrimination ordinance (which he co-authored with city attorneys) placed the city in violation of its own Equal Benefits Ordinance. It took until 2000 to win on the issue, and a trans-inclusive policy went into effect in 2001.

Links from the Episode: 

• Find Dr. Green here: https://www.jamisongreen.com/about
• Buy Becoming a Visible Man here:  https://bookshop.org/p/books/becoming-a-visible-man-second-edition-jamison-green/14031840?ean=9780826522870&next=t
• Find A History of Transgender Medicine here: https://www.amazon.com/History-Transgender-Medicine-United-States/dp/B0DBT6PZCX 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org.

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Creating spaces where everyone feels safe, valued, and seen is a critical task in today’s world, but inclusion has become a political battleground. Policies are being written to erase identities, restrict access, and make belonging conditional. Instead of celebrating diversity, some lawmakers and leaders seem afraid of it. The very idea of making space for all people—especially LGBTQ+ individuals—has been weaponized, leaving many wondering: How do we push forward when inclusion itself is under attack? In this week’s episode of In the Den, Sara talks with special guest CB Beal of Justice and Peace Consulting about proactively creating spaces where safety and affirmation are not just reactions, but the starting point.

Special Guest: CB Beal

CB Beal, M.Div. (they/them/theirs) specializes in facilitating learning experiences that involve issues of marginalization, oppression, and privilege, helping participants hold the complexities of our lives in perspective, to co-create a safe[r] brave[r] space within which people can be challenged to learn and grow. They are a dynamic and humorous speaker and frequent presenter and consultant in congregations and schools in the northeast in Preemptive Radical Inclusion, safer communities/congregations, and supporting gender creative and transgender/non-binary children and youth in schools and youth-serving organizations. They also support organizations, groups and individuals doing change work. CB is a white, non-binary/genderqueer, queer, mostly able-bodied fat person.

Links from the Show:

• Justice and Peace Consulting: https://justiceandpeaceconsulting.com/ 
• More about CB and Preemptive Radical Inclusion: https://justiceandpeaceconsulting.com/about/ 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 
• Mama Dragons on FB: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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Content Warning: This episode contains brief mentions of rape and talks about addiction. 

Special Guest: Rikki West

Rikki West is a former spiritual seeker and UC Berkeley–trained scientist who spent decades trying to reconcile scientific explanations of existence with her ordinary, real-life awareness. One adventure at a time, she found her way to a peace and beauty that changed all the questions. Her book Rootlines, a memoir of family healing, was published by She Writes Press in 2020. Mother of Noli and Godmother of Morgan, Rikki loves being outside in the alpine desert of northern New Mexico, where she lives with her wife Jill and an old Yamaha. 

Links From the Show: 

• Rikki’s website: https://www.rikkiwest.com/
• Rikki’s book Rootlines: https://bookshop.org/p/books/rootlines-a-memoir-rikki-west/kYAoarHCdMZ3yJHg?ean=9781631527548&next=t&digital=t  
• Rikki’s book The Empty Bowl: https://www.rikkiwest.com/the-empty-bowl
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 
• Mama Dragons on FB: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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In today’s episode of In the Den, we confront a reality that far too many of our trans children are facing–relentless attacks from state legislatures and federal policies, bans on gender affirming care, restrictions targeting identity and expression, bathrooms, and pronouns. Trans people are under siege like never before, but there are also amazing champions for trans rights, including today’s special guest Carl Charles, senior attorney for Lambda Legal. 

Special Guest: Carl Charles

Carl Charles is an experienced LGBTQ civil rights attorney focused on trans justice. He is currently serving as a Senior Attorney with Lambda Legal in their Southern Regional Office. Before working with Lambda Legal, Carl was a staff attorney at A Better Balance, the New York City Commission on Human Rights, and was a Skadden Fellow with the ACLU LGBT and HIV Project. Outside of work, Carl can be found cuddling and giving treats to his two dogs, Pipa and Lila, and sometimes also to his spouse, Chris, in their home in Atlanta, GA. 

Links from the Show:

• Lambda Legal: https://lambdalegal.org/ 
• More from Carl: https://www.aclu.org/bio/carl-charles 
• Chase Strangio film: https://festivalplayer.sundance.org/sundance-film-festival-2025/play/675dd267f71df2a4f630f99c 
• Lou Sullivan article: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/lou-sullivans-diaries-are-a-radical-testament-to-trans-happiness 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 
• Mama Dragons on FB: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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Supporting our queer kids and learning together about all the ways we can show up for them and ourselves is central to our Mama Dragons community. This week’s episode of In The Den dives deep into how we can support and show up for our transgender children from a place of self-reflection and joy!

Special Guest: Ben Greene

Ben Greene is a transgender advocate and educator who has spoken internationally on topics surrounding transgender inclusion. After coming out at 15 in a small town, Ben has devoted his career to spreading empathy, education, and storytelling around the trans experience, and has spoken for companies, hospitals, schools, religious organizations, and government entities sharing what it means to be transgender and how to show up as an ally. He is a fierce advocate for transgender youth, regularly speaking in their defense at the Missouri State Capitol, and is the author of the book "My Child is Trans, Now What? A Joy Centered Approach to Support". He is also the creator of the "Good Queer News" Newsletter, and regularly shares LGBTQ+ stories worth celebrating from around the world. He is passionate about educating others from a place of compassion—no matter where they’re starting from. 

Links from the Show:

• Ben’s website: https://www.bgtranstalks.com/ 
• Find Ben’s book My Child is Trans, Now What here: https://bookshop.org/p/books/my-child-is-trans-now-what-a-joy-centered-approach-to-support-benjamin-greene/20173140?ean=9781538186459&next=t&next=t
• One-on-one mentorship available here: https://www.bgtranstalks.com/virtual-mentorship 
• Join Mama Dragons today: www.mamadragons.org 
• Mama Dragons on FB: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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Drag Story Hour is a global movement that brings the magic of storytelling, the art of drag, and the power of inclusion to libraries, schools, and community spaces, creating environments where kids can celebrate diversity, explore their imaginations, and embrace the beauty of self-expression. This week In the Den, Sara and Drag Story Hour’s Jonathon Hamilt discuss everything from the joy drag story  hour brings to children and families to addressing the challenges it faces to the ways in which drag story hours are changing the narrative about drag and LGBTQ+ representation in ways that are educational, empowering, and downright fun.

Special Guest: Jonathan Hamilt

Jonathan Hamilt (he/him) is with Drag Story Hour and co-founder of the NYC Chapter in 2016. Hamilt was the first Executive Director of the organization, taking it from a loose string of a few state's events to a national 501 c 3 with an international chapter network. He has spoken at Harvard, Yale, the Medical Library Association, the American Library Association, Public Library Association, School Library Journal, and SXSWEDU Conference. His activism spreads outside the work with Drag Story as his Drag persona "Ona Louise" hosts drag charity bingos across NYC. Ona Louise's personal goal is healing her inner child by offering affirming and accepting programming for kids which teaches them that it's more than okay to be different and they are loved no matter what!

Links from the Show:

• Drag Story Hour’s website: https://www.dragstoryhour.org/ 
• Join Mama Dragons here: www.mamadragons.org
• Mama Dragons on FB: https://www.facebook.com/mamadragons 
• Mama Dragons on IG: https://www.instagram.com/themamadragons/ 

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

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