Faith Matters

This week, we're bringing you a special episode with Brian Mclaren on his new book, Life after Doom: Wisdom and Courage for a World Falling Apart. Though we recorded this conversation weeks ago, it feels especially timely now in light of the horrific violence we witnessed this last weekend in the attempt on former President Trump's life, the deadly heat waves and hurricanes happening across the world, and so much else.  

This book is an empowering call to action and an invitation to do the kind of inner work that makes us brave in the face of real fear and uncertainty. Brian asks, "What if it doesn't turn out? How will we face the future if things get worse instead of better?" He offers gentle encouragement to reach deeper into ourselves and find a stronger, more resilient type of hope: the kind that, as Václav Havel said, “is not the certainty that things will turn out as we wish, [but] is the conviction that some things are worth doing, no matter how they turn out.”

Brian's insights challenged us to rethink our understanding of end-times, to explore what is worth doing no matter what, and to see the concept of chosenness not as a privilege for a select few, but as a call to loving service for all. 

For those of you who have heard Brian before, you already know you're in for a treat. For those who haven't, Brian is a former pastor turned author and public theologian. He's a truly special teacher and someone who's affected the way we live in lasting ways. He seems to see the world and everything in it through the eyes of a "mystic"—in its real interconnectedness and deep spiritual beauty. We're incredibly grateful he came back on the show, and you can find out more about Brian on his website at brianmclaren.net.

We think this episode offers real wisdom and a fresh perspective on how we can navigate these challenging times with faith, hope, and love. And with that, we'll jump right into our conversation with Brian McLaren.

Today, we're resharing an interview we loved with Astrid Tuminez, who we're excited to be hosting as a speaker at Restore this year. Astrid is the President of Utah Valley University and an absolute delight to talk with and listen to. She’s full of stories, humor, and deep insights that made our time with her pass way too quickly.

This interview actually came about because Astrid wrote an essay in Melissa Inouye and Kate Holbrook’s new book Every Needful Thing. We loved Astrid’s essay and knew we wanted to get to know her better.

Astrid has an absolutely fascinating and unique story. She grew up in the slums of the Philippines, but along with her siblings, was discovered to have an exceedingly bright intellect and was offered a free place at one of the most prestigious and expensive Catholic schools in the area. As a child, she was, religiously, a Catholic, but felt that she was always brimming with questions that were being hushed. When she eventually met the Latter-day Saint missionaries, it was a different experience — they gave her a new framework to think about the world, and weren’t afraid to at least try to answer her questions.

Astrid’s pursuit of education eventually took her to the United States, where she graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor's degree in international relations and Russian literature from Brigham Young University. She later earned a master's degree from Harvard University in Soviet Studies and a Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in political science. Before becoming President of UVU, Astrid spent many years in leadership in the corporate, non-profit, and academic worlds.

What we maybe loved most about Astrid was that her unique perspectives make the world of faith and intellect seem expansive, exciting, and adventurous — even full of mystery. She’s found spiritual insight and even practice well outside of Mormonism while simultaneously keeping that “fixed foot,” in the Restored Gospel. In a real way, she’s living Joseph Smith’s injunction to “receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”

We want to send Astrid a huge thanks for coming on the show, and we really think you’re going to love this one. And with that, we’ll jump right in.

Today, we’re thrilled to welcome therapist and podcaster Valerie Hamaker.

In his book Falling Upward, Franciscan priest Richard Rohr uses the metaphor of a container to elaborate on what he calls “the two halves of life.” The first half of life, he says, is for building the structure of the container; the second is for filling it and sharing from it. This concept has been foundational for us in our faith journey over the last 10 years, and today with Valerie, we delved into how everyone’s faith evolves over time, the necessity of structure and identity in early faith development, and the importance of embracing complexity, depth, and paradox as we grow.

One of the tricky parts about faith evolution is that not everyone’s faith evolves in the same way; and because so many of us have built our lives on or around our faith, it can be hard when we see loved ones’ and family members’ beliefs diverge significantly from our own, in any direction. This is a real area of expertise for Valerie in her own practice, and we found her insights on managing complex relationships and spiritual growth super helpful—she helped us see that genuine curiosity can be crucial in navigating complex conversations around beliefs, and explained why we can, and should, let go of any belief that engenders fear. 

Valerie is a licensed therapist specializing in marriage and couples work. She owns a private counseling practice in Kansas City, Missouri, and is the host of the Latter Day Struggles Podcast, where she helps Latter-Day Saints understand and navigate their spiritual growth.

This conversation is packed with practical advice for anyone experiencing or supporting others through faith transitions. We hope you find Valerie's insights as enlightening and encouraging as we did. And with that, we’ll jump right into this conversation with Valerie Hamaker.

Note: the research Valerie refers to in this interview was done by Liz Macdonald.

This is part two of our conversation with Michael Wilcox, and if you haven’t heard part one yet, it helps set up some important context for this episode. This is really not an interview so much as a story Michael tells: the story of his father, who navigated life in the mid-20th century as a gay man and a Latter-day Saint.

This story delves into the messy and painful predicaments his family faced, when reality failed to fit the predictable ideal. It also offers a glimpse into the experience of an LGBTQ member of the church several decades ago, before we became accustomed to talking about it as a community. And we want to emphasize that we’re not sharing this story because of its outcome, and in fact, quite the opposite: we found in this story the beautiful insight that we can release ourselves completely from judging others and love without an agenda—and it’s the relationships free of judgment and agendas that become celestial in and of themselves.

We want to thank Michael for being incredibly honest and vulnerable here, and for coming on to share so generously with us again.

This week, we're thrilled to welcome back Dr. Michael Wilcox to the podcast. Michael is an esteemed author and longtime Institute teacher, and his previous episodes, which we released in two parts as "God's Many Voices" in episodes 85 and 86, have been some of the most listened to in Faith Matters' history. It's been three years since we last had him on, and we're excited to dive into another meaningful conversation.

In this episode, Michael shares his profound insights on the topic of the marginalized, particularly focusing on the experience of the LGBTQ community. Michael's wisdom draws from his own life experiences, wisdom traditions he deeply loves, and great literature. 

Michael also addresses the challenge of navigating differing beliefs and values, urging us to avoid calling down "fire from heaven" on those who worship on different mountaintops. He speaks about the importance of forgiveness, and what he calls the "Lazarus Law," reminding us that every individual has a name and a story, deserving of respect and compassion.

Throughout the conversation, Michael's anecdotes and reflections encouraged us to approach the marginalized with love, humility, and a genuine desire for understanding. We found Michael, as always, to be filled with transformative insights that we thought could really help us build more inclusive and compassionate communities.

We’re also releasing an additional conversation as a companion to this episode. In it, Brother Wilcox shares a really personal story that highlights some of these principles, and if you’d like to hear more from Brother Wilcox, it’s on the feed right now. 

Thanks so much as always for listening, and with that, we’ll jump right in.

This week, we are honored to share with you a conversation with Rabbi Sharon Brous, author of the The Amen Effect: Ancient Wisdom to Mend Our Broken Hearts and World. From the moment we started reading Sharon’s book, we knew that she had a special message, and that she would be an incredible guest. Sharon’s book is a beautiful blend of ancient Jewish wisdom, contemporary science, and deep personal experience that shows how humans throughout history have taken up the responsibility to sit with each other as sacred witnesses to life’s most vulnerable and most joyous moments.

Sharon makes the case that when we sit with each other in “celebration, sorrow, and solidarity,” we are connecting in ways that not only forge deep and lasting relationships, but contribute to a larger healing in our communities and in the world. One of the things we loved about Sharon’s book and the conversation with her was that she shared experience from her own life in which she’s succeeded here as well as where she’s failed. None of us do this perfectly, and so often we feel like we don’t even know how to—Sharon was wise and generous in giving herself and all of us grace for now always showing up for people the way we could have, but also practical advice that help us see how we can do this better.

Sharon’s speaking from the perspective of a Jewish Rabbi, but her work reminds us of our own sacred texts and our promises to be willing to “mourn with those that mourn.”  We loved that Sharon explained that these principles of connection and solidarity really are universal, and we all get at them in our own languages and through our own rituals and traditions.

This episode cuts straight to the heart of what it feels like to be human; it was impossible for it not to get personal, since we all know grief, joy, and connection intimately. We absolutely loved talking with Sharon and consider this a special episode. We hope that you enjoy it as much as we did!

This week, we’re sharing an episode from Proclaim Peace, a podcast we proudly co-sponsor in collaboration with Mormon Women for Ethical Government. Proclaim Peace is hosted by Jennifer Thomas, Co-Executive Director of MWEG, and Patrick Mason, Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, and longtime friend and advisor of Faith Matters.

In this episode, Patrick and Jennifer chat with Eboo Patel, the founder and president of Interfaith America and a powerful bridge-builder in the United States. Eboo has spent a lifetime trying to harness the passion and loyalty people feel towards their religions and use it for good by encouraging interfaith collaboration and civic engagement. He shares with us some of his insights from several decades of speaking with religious and civic leaders across many different faiths, and some of the special opportunities he sees for our Latter-day Saint community.

We encourage you to subscribe to Proclaim Peace to hear fascinating conversations with Latter-day Saint bridge builders and peacemakers working all over the world in creative, gospel-inspired ways. We’d also love for you to register for Restore, which will be held on September 5-7 at the Mountain American Expo Center, where Eboo will be, in-person, along with Patrick, Jennifer, and many other incredible speakers for a weekend of spiritual rejuvenation. You can register at faithmaters.org/restore

We hope you’ll join us! In the mean time, please enjoy this episode of Proclaim Peace with Eboo Patel.

This week we’re bringing you a conversation on a subject that we’re always thinking about, but that has taken on a special urgency over the last two months—the role of women in the Church. 

A large survey recently released showed a societal shift with regard to women and religion. In a reversal of trends from prior generations, young women are now leaving religion at significantly higher rates than men. Social issues and patriarchal structures are oft-cited reasons. Are there signs of trouble within our own faith? 

To explore this question, we invited two brilliant women; Neylan McBaine and Bethany Brady Spalding. Neylan is the author of Women at Church, which turns ten years old this summer. Bethany is the co-author of the Girls who Chose God series, which highlights the powerful stories of women in scripture and Church history. 

First, a little background on things we reference in this conversation.

In  March, the Church’s Instagram account posted a quote from a talk by Anette Dennis, of the Relief Society general presidency.  The post claimed, “There is no other religious organization in the world, that I know of, that has so broadly given power and authority to women.” This one post generated 18 thousand comments, mostly from Latter-day Saint women pushing back against this claim and expressing how their own experience feels quite different.  

We also reference something that happened a few months prior when a church area authority in the San Francisco area instructed stakes and wards to discontinue their long-standing practice of having some women leaders sit on the stand during sacrament meetings. Over 3,000 women and men signed an open letter to the general women’s leaders of the church in protest. 

We make brief reference in the conversation to a book by BYU Religion Professor Barbara Morgan Gardner, The Priesthood Power of Women published by Deseret Book. Gardner distinguishes between the temporal ecclesiastical priesthood to which now only men are ordained and the eternal familial priesthood, to which both men and women are ordained, and in which they act as full partners.

We tried to get honest about the tension, while approaching some potential paths forward. Is this just about the Priesthood, or is there something deeper going on? What  practical things can both women and men can do to allow women and their spiritual gifts to shine? Does it require “change from the top” or is there an inner work that anyone could choose to do to change the experience just as profoundly? What might it look like for women to truly act as priestesses in their homes, whether as a single person or side-by-side with a spouse?

This is all tricky territory. Some will worry that we can’t consider how to improve women’s experience in the Church while sustaining Church leaders, while others believe that pushing until there is change is the only way forward. We hope this conversation honors all of those voices. We have deep love and empathy for our community and our leaders. 

We’re grateful if you choose to spend your time with us on this topic. With that, we’ll jump right in.

Why Heavenly Mother is Essential for Women Understanding their Eternal Destiny by McArthur Krishna and Bethany Brady Spalding

“This Is a Woman’s Church”

This week, we're excited to have Bob Rees on the podcast. Bob is a true "long-haul hero" (to use Pete Davis's term) -- a Latter-day Saint who has been studying and writing on Latter-day Saint topics for more than fifty years. To us, Bob exhibits the best of what we have to offer theologically, and practically, to the world. 

Bob believes that the deepest power of the Book of Mormon, even more than its remarkable origin story, is its ultimate message of love. After a lifetime of serious study and contemplation, he says, the goodness of the Book has simply changed his life. In addition to the profound effect it's had on him, he's also endlessly fascinated by it. We could feel Bob's enthusiasm as he shared ideas for making our reading of the Book of Mormon come alive–for example, by doing midrash—imagining elaborations and spin-offs that help us flesh out the stories we find in the text. In many ways, Bob models how to have fun with scriptures, even as we learn from or wrestle with them—and allow that work to transform us.

Bob has taught in humanities and Mormon Studies at UCLA, UC Berkeley, Graduate Theological Union, and other institutions. He's also the co-founder and Vice President of Bountiful Children, which fights child malnutrition worldwide.

If you'd like to hear more from Bob on the topic of The Book of Mormon, we'd really encourage you to check out his book of essays A New Witness to the World, which was published in 2020, or The Reader’s Book of Mormon, which Bob co-edited with Eugene England. 

Thanks as always for listening, and we're excited to share this conversation with Bob Rees.

This week, we’re sharing a fascinating conversation we had with Josh Coates, a computer scientist, entrepreneur, and founder of the BH Roberts Foundation. The BH Roberts Foundation is the non-profit behind Mormonr, a producer of Latter-day Saint media that tackles hard questions about the faith, as well as "LDSBot," an AI-driven chatbot that is able to handle just about any question about Latter-day Saint culture and theology shockingly well. 

In February of this year, Josh and his colleague, Steven Cranney, published the results of yet another project: a survey of a representative sample of active and former Latter-day Saints that the BH Roberts Foundation conducted. The survey found that among active Latter-day Saints, two "clusters" emerged: 80% of the sample had fairly orthodox beliefs around God, the Church, and the historicity of the Book of Mormon, while 20% expressed more uncertainty and held less traditional views. The survey also integrated questions from Jonathan Haidt's Moral Foundations theory, which attempts to suss out how different kinds of people build their ethical perspectives. This part of the survey found some really fascinating differences here between active Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints that we think could help us understand each other better.

We spent some time with Josh talking about the different values and gifts these two clusters of practicing members can bring to the Church. In Josh's view, neither group alone can bring to bear the full gifts of the community on its own: cluster one could help our community grow deep, strong roots, while cluster two could help us branch out, expand, and explore. 

We're super grateful to Josh, Steven, and the rest of their team for their work on this survey, and to Josh for sharing more about it with us. There's a lot to dig into here, and as always, we hope that discussing differences can actually help see each other with more empathy and love.