It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Arsène Wenger series by tracing his leap from youth coaching at Strasbourg to assistant work under Jean-Marc Guillet at Cannes, where his scouting and relentless workload stood out, before taking his first major job at Nancy with Aldo Platini as director. They discuss Wenger’s early innovations—psychologists, stretching, diet, massage and “invisible training”—and his severity, detail-obsession and frugality, alongside the loneliness and intensity he describes after defeats. Despite Nancy’s limited means and eventual relegation, Wenger earned the Monaco job in 1987, where the glamorous setting contrasted with his ascetic focus. With signings like Glenn Hoddle and Mark Hateley, he introduced advanced recovery and professionalism, won Ligue 1 in 1988, and later built teams featuring Claude Puel, while developing talents such as George Weah, Lilian Thuram and Emmanuel Petit, amid disillusionment about French football’s corruption.

00:00 Hoddle Meets Modern Training

00:47 Wenger Series Returns

01:37 Cannes Assistant Breakthrough

02:50 Motorway Scouting Story

04:08 Workaholic Coaching Routine

05:27 First Team Taste of Power

06:37 Nancy Job and Platini Link

08:03 Invisible Training Revolution

12:21 Youth Development and Frugality

15:09 Severity and Dark Obsession

19:49 Monaco Move and Glamour

23:23 Royals and Monaco Memories

25:46 Why Hoddle and Hateley Fit

26:54 Hateley Meets Wenger

27:46 Hoddle Hijacked From PSG

30:17 Training Revolution In Monaco

33:28 Beer Smoking And Culture Clash

34:46 Tactics And Touchline Temper

38:00 Monaco Glory And Marseille Shadow

43:17 Annie And Private Life

44:48 Weah Thuram Petit Talent Spotting

49:03 Highbury Encounter With Dein

52:31 Next Episode And Wrap

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin a four-part series marking 30 years since Arsène Wenger’s arrival at Arsenal, framing him—alongside David Dein—as a key catalyst for the Premier League’s shift toward foreign managers, multicultural squads, and modern nutrition and sports science. They trace Wenger’s roots in rural, war-scarred Alsace on the French-German border: his parents’ hard-working life, his father’s forced Nazi conscription, the Catholic village culture, and Wenger’s intense, self-aware obsession with football. The episode explores how he learned the game through unsupervised street football and bistro conversations, a serious illness at 14, and his desire to escape village life. Wenger’s breakthrough came at 19 after being spotted in a heavy defeat and joining Mutzig, leading to university studies in Strasbourg, a stint learning English in Cambridge, a squad role in Strasbourg’s 1979 title win, and an early move into coaching—already using a psychiatrist with youth players.

00:00 Wenger Obsession Intro

01:23 Why Wenger Changed England

03:41 Alsace War Shadow

07:30 Village Roots and Work Ethic

10:49 French Football Culture Explained

16:18 Street Football and Brother Guy

18:59 Faith Philosophy and Le Professor

24:32 Illness Growth and Escape

27:19 Bistro Lessons La Croix d'Or

28:53 Wine and Bistro Roots

29:37 Bar Talk and Escape

30:09 Football Dreams in Dittlingen

33:00 Mutzig Breakthrough

34:13 Max Hild Mentor

36:44 Dancing and Philosophy

39:55 University and Class Divide

42:10 Strasbourg Squad Years

43:29 Cambridge English Leap

46:47 Coaching Begins at Strasbourg

47:31 Total Football Influences

50:11 Holistic Coaching Mindset

51:30 Wrap Up and Next Episode

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson examine Kwame Nkrumah’s state-backed club Real Republicans and why it became widely unpopular despite winning trophies, after being created by taking top players from existing clubs without compensation and reinforcing regional and ethnic tensions, particularly in Ashanti. They track criticism in the Evening News and Ashanti Pioneer, Kotoko’s protests, and the club’s lack of public support even at its peak. The episode argues the project nonetheless helped the Black Stars by building cohesion, highlighted by a 3–3 draw with Real Madrid in 1962 and Ghana’s AFCON triumphs in 1963 and 1965 under C.K. Gyamfi, with key players drawn from Republicans. The discussion then links football to Nkrumah’s growing authoritarianism, economic strain from cocoa price swings, and his 1966 CIA-backed coup, after which Real Republicans were dissolved, while Ghana’s club and national successes continued briefly before declining with reduced state support.

00:00 Why Fans Reject Republicans

01:33 Nkrumah Builds a Model Club

05:09 Player Raids Spark Backlash

09:05 Trophies Without Love

16:32 Politics and Regional Resentment

21:34 Cocoa Prices and Ashanti Nationalism

25:41 Break and Reset

26:07 Golden Era for Black Stars

26:55 Real Madrid Draw and FIFA Fight

29:24 World Cup Qualifiers Reality Check

30:12 FIFA Spots Ghana

32:08 Real Republicans Core

33:18 Baba Yara Tragedy

34:00 1963 AFCON Triumph

36:03 Ethiopia Tangent

41:10 1965 AFCON Away Win

43:38 Ghana Legacy Debate

45:37 Nkrumah Turns Authoritarian

50:27 Coup Ends Era

51:37 Aftermath and Wrap

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss how Kwame Nkrumah used football to build Ghana’s national identity and promote Pan-African unity after independence (1957) and becoming a republic (1960). They trace Ghana’s colonial background as the Gold Coast, Nkrumah’s education and political radicalization in London and the US, his leadership of the CPP, and the push to independence amid postwar unrest and cocoa blight riots. Nkrumah backed football as a tool for unity, sponsoring the Nkrumah Gold Cup and founding the African Club Championships (Osagyefo Cup), a precursor to today’s African Champions League. The episode then profiles Ghana star C.K. Gyamfi (“Magic Feet”), his rise through local clubs, a 1951 UK tour, and a breakthrough spell at Fortuna Düsseldorf in 1960 before returning to play for Ghana.

00:00 Nkrumah and Football Nationhood

03:04 Ghana Under Empire

04:53 Nkrumah Abroad and Ideas

06:38 London Debates and Mentors

12:33 Return and Rising Unrest

15:15 CPP and Road to Independence

18:43 Republic and Cult of Leader

20:05 Sport as National Unity

23:11 Pan African Tournaments Begin

25:30 Gold Cup Wins and Wider Wave

26:53 Osagyefo Cup Club Vision

27:13 Osagyefo Cup Origins

27:58 First African Club Final

28:17 Unity Through Football

30:01 Ghana Golden Era Focus

31:07 Meet CK Gyamfi

33:14 Early Life And Clubs

35:00 Mysterious Dwarves Tangent

38:41 Kotoko And UK Tour

41:55 Germany With Fortuna

48:06 Called Back To Ghana

49:31 Part One Wrap Up

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper conclude their three-part series on Kevin Keegan by tracing his managerial career and the idealism behind his “why not?” philosophy. They cover his post-playing retreat in Marbella, a 1991 roadside attack that sparked unfounded rumours, and his surprise return to rescue near-bankrupt Newcastle in 1992 despite having barely watched football. Keegan’s early chaos, promotion to the Premier League, and “entertainers” era are explored, including the Andy Cole sale and his famous address to angry fans. The episode revisits the 1995–96 title collapse, his exit amid Newcastle’s flotation plans, spells at Fulham and England, a steadier period at Manchester City, and a final, acrimonious Newcastle return under Mike Ashley, ending with reflections on his legacy and farewell tour.

00:00 Dreamers Welcome

01:39 Marbella Escape

02:49 Celebrity Golf Circuit

04:52 M25 Attack Rumors

08:10 Lightbulb Moment

09:34 Sir John Hall Calls

14:02 Return of the King

17:03 Unprepared New Boss

20:29 Great Escape Finale

22:13 Promotion Blueprint

24:53 Entertainers Era

26:32 Newcastle Goldfish Bowl

28:41 Keegan in the City

30:22 Keegan Tea Reception

32:14 Andy Cole Fallout

33:24 Calming The Mob

36:31 Title Charge Collapse

39:03 Shearer And Glory

41:43 Flotation Clash Exit

44:52 Fulham And England Call

47:24 Poisoned Chalice England

52:56 City Comeback Era

55:36 Third Newcastle Breakdown

58:54 Final Farewell Legacy

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool.

00:00 Keegan Cashes In

01:06 Hamburg Move Explained

01:39 The Bubble Perm Era

03:40 Frosty Dressing Room

06:36 Lübeck Punch Up

09:46 Backlash and Doubts

10:58 Turning Point Return

12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival

14:03 Pop Star in Germany

17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate

21:12 European Cup Heartbreak

23:14 Shock Southampton Switch

25:07 Saints Reality Check

27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally

28:27 England Captain Burden

30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak

31:47 Belgrade Police Beating

34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos

35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout

36:51 IRA Threats Belfast

40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury

43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move

46:52 Robson Drops Keegan

49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle

55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement

55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

*The full three-part series is available on Patreon now*

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory.

00:00 Tribute to Keegan

01:09 Charisma and Kindness

06:19 Roots in Doncaster

09:14 Mining Heritage

15:22 School and Sweetheart

22:21 Rejected Then Spotted

24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough

28:18 Move to Liverpool

30:03 Negotiating His Worth

33:34 Late Arrival Debut

35:22 Toshack Partnership

35:47 Sweat Box Fitness

37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax

40:12 Shankly Mind Games

41:46 Celebrity Endorsements

47:26 Superstars Bike Crash

49:48 Trophies And Turning Point

54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout

57:34 European Peak Exit Plan

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign.

Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel.

Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak.

But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat.

The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age.

They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system.

The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together.

Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona.

This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football.

You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

*You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon*

Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .

Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.

They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.