"Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off."

About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company.

Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies.

In this conversation, Jennifer reveals:

• Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures
• The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?"
• Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him
• How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split
• The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism
• Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them
• The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together
• Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves
• How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit
• Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather

Chapters 00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams 02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection 04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away 05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in 07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad 16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist 19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure 24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture 27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great

(Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.)

About the Host Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen

About the Guest Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions," and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026). Link: https://www.jenniferachatman.com

About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.

This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.

Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Making Organizational Culture Great, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com

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