🔑 Summary:

In this insightful conversation, Daria Love unpacks the often-blurred boundaries between product marketing and product management. She shares practical frameworks for collaboration, the importance of go-to-market (GTM) roadmaps, and how product managers and marketers can set each other (and the product) up for success. The episode is packed with strategic and tactical takeaways for PMs looking to deepen partnerships with product marketers.

⏱️ Key Topics & Timestamps:

01:45 – Daria’s BackgroundDaria shares her 14+ years in B2B SaaS and how she found her niche in product marketing.

03:39 – Her Favorite Area in PMMGo-to-market strategy and product launches—why she loves the unpredictable, cross-functional work.

06:22 – AI and RepositioningThe impact of market waves like AI on positioning and the tension between PM and PMM around messaging.

07:55 – Dual Roadmaps: Product vs. GTMDaria advocates for separate product and GTM roadmaps to avoid unrealistic launch expectations.

10:51 – Internal Stakeholder CommunicationClarifying responsibilities between PMs and PMMs when communicating launch plans internally.

12:34 – Product Adoption OwnershipWhy adoption is a shared responsibility and how PMMs help segment, enable, and message for different audiences.

17:04 – Avoiding Siloed Customer ResearchCollaboration between PM, PMM, and CS when interviewing customers, collecting feedback, or creating case studies.

22:35 – The Importance of SegmentationDaria and the host dive into how segmentation influences prioritization, measurement, and strategy.

26:42 – Building for the Wrong CustomersA cautionary tale: companies evolving past SMB but still building for them.

30:08 – Releases vs. LaunchesDaria breaks down tactical coordination between code readiness and marketing readiness.

33:24 – Early Involvement in the RoadmapHow PMs can benefit from involving PMMs at the ideation stage for better market alignment.

36:51 – Code Is Only 30% of the WorkWhy launch readiness requires internal training, customer education, and coordinated campaigns.

40:07 – Risks of Premature Feature ReleasesReleasing to production without internal enablement can erode trust and hinder adoption.

44:12 – Empathy for Internal PartnersPMs must support and enable internal teams like they do engineers to ensure successful product rollouts.

🎙️ Guest: Irene Yu Founder & CEO of SkipLevel – a company helping PMs become more technical without needing to code.

Skiplevel article on how AI is changing the PM role

🔑 Key Topics & Timestamps

• [00:00 - 02:25] Irene's BackgroundIrene shares her transition from software engineer to starting SkipLevel.

• [02:26 - 04:45] Identifying the Technical GapsHer early software development experience revealed a lack of technical knowledge in PMs which created communication issues with engineers.

• [04:46 - 07:15] Why PMs Should Learn Tech FundamentalsShe explains how better technical understanding helps PMs ask better questions and write clearer requirements.

• [07:16 - 10:30] PMs Don’t Need to Code, but…Irene stresses PMs don’t need to be coders, but they should understand system architecture, APIs, databases, etc.

• [10:31 - 13:20] Creating SkipLevelIrene talks about how she turned her insights into a business – a learning platform that bridges the tech gap for PMs.

• [13:21 - 16:40] Common Challenges for PMsShe highlights issues like vague communication with devs and over-reliance on engineering for feasibility assessments.

• [16:41 - 20:00] How SkipLevel WorksOverview of the course structure – from foundational topics to applied learning on APIs and backend logic.

• [20:01 - 24:15] Advice for PMsIrene encourages curiosity, asking “how” and “why” behind technical choices, and building confidence through structured learning.

• [24:16 - End] Final ThoughtsImportance of continuous learning, especially in bridging gaps between business and tech for better product outcomes.

Summary:

In this episode of Lessons in Product Management, John discusses the importance of developing into a T-shaped product manager — someone who has deep expertise in one area but broad knowledge across many disciplines. He explains how the expectations of PMs are evolving, particularly with the rise of generative AI, and gives tactical advice on building a career growth roadmap.

Timestamps:

00:09 – Introduction to the episode and topic.

00:23 – What is a T-shaped PM? (Depth and breadth explained)

01:10 – Defining the core responsibility of a PM: creating customer value that drives business objectives.

02:00 – Key PM tasks: Working with teams, getting buy-in, prioritizing, synthesizing information.

03:26 – Areas PMs can go deep in, and the need for broad competency across adjacent fields.

03:57 – Technical competency: Importance for PMs without technical backgrounds (mention of Skip Level course).

04:41 – Gaining competence in UX and research.

04:58 – Understanding go-to-market functions: marketing, sales, customer success, and product marketing.

05:30 – Importance of data and analytics skills: SQL proficiency, telling stories with data.

06:05 – Compliance, legal, and regulatory knowledge for PMs in heavily regulated industries.

06:30 – Product ethics: distinguishing between what you can do and what you should do.

06:55 – Financial acumen: revenue models, ROI, and understanding value vs. cost.

07:43 – PMs are at the center of organizations: Why speaking multiple "languages" matters.

08:07 – Embracing a long-term career journey rather than sprinting to learn everything at once.

08:35 – How to identify strengths and weaknesses to focus learning efforts.

09:23 – Real-world examples of technical and regulatory knowledge gaps PMs need to address.

09:42 – The need for PMs to evolve in the era of generative AI and automation.

10:34 – The shift away from traditional PM roles focused only on backlogs and PRDs.

11:28 – A call to action: Take ownership of your learning to remain competitive.

12:08 – Summary: Developing breadth and depth will determine your ability to land jobs, get promoted, and grow.

12:44 – John offers coaching help: Listeners can email him for a career growth roadmap session. [email protected]

13:00 – Closing remarks: "Go out and kill it!"

If you're trying to break into product management, come join us at Path2Product to get the experience you need!

Lessons in Product Management - Working & Communicating with Engineers

Guest: Paul Lunow
Host: John Doe
Episode Duration: ~28 min

[00:00 - 01:37] Introduction

• John welcomes Paul Lunow to the podcast.
• Paul previously hosted John on Product and Cake.

• Founded Nepos, a startup building a tablet for elderly users.

• Moved to eBay to experience corporate innovation.

• The importance of psychological safety in teams.

• Engineers need a space to fail, ask questions, and collaborate.

• PMs don’t need to code but must deeply understand the product.

• The worst thing: a PM who pretends to know coding but doesn’t use the product.

• Overworked and stressed PMs create pressure and disconnection.

• Avoid last-minute changes and unclear expectations.

• Split work into offense (strategic work) and defense (reactive tasks).

• Prioritize one key task per day instead of juggling everything at once.

• Be a sparring partner, not just a requirement-pusher.

• Never throw engineers under the bus—own decisions as a team.

• Mistakes happen—focus on developing strong personal values as a PM.

• Paul’s new novel about an engineer in Big Tech (available in German).

• Subscribe to Product and Cake & Lessons in Product Management.

• See you next week!

Podcast Summary: Megan Shulby on Post-Launch Product ManagementIntroduction & Megan’s Background

• 01:24 - 02:01 – Megan Shulby is introduced; she and John connected via LinkedIn due to her content on underrated product management topics.
• 02:01 - 04:39 – Megan shares her journey from Hollywood entertainment (e.g., The Biggest Loser) to digital marketing, leading to product management. She pursued graduate studies in Information Systems and Marketing to gain technical expertise.
• 04:40 - 05:47 – She discusses how her media background, especially storytelling, plays a role in product management by aligning teams and ensuring a human-centered approach.

• 05:48 - 08:59 – Megan emphasizes the importance of balancing technical and interpersonal skills in product management. While technical foundations are necessary, storytelling is key in aligning stakeholders, engineering, and sales.
• 09:00 - 11:37 – Discussion on the differences between film production and software development, highlighting the lack of post-launch iteration in film versus continuous improvement in software.
• 11:38 - 13:51 – John and Megan discuss how B2B product teams can adopt a controlled introduction approach similar to film test screenings, mitigating reputational risk through phased rollouts.

• 13:52 - 16:24 – Megan explains why post-launch is critical, yet often overlooked. Many PMs shift focus to new features rather than optimizing existing ones.
• 16:25 - 17:22 – Importance of tracking feature success post-launch, ensuring shipped products meet their intended impact.
• 17:23 - 19:46 – Key elements of post-launch management: stakeholder alignment (sales, customer support, finance), defining success metrics, and monitoring usage.

• 19:47 - 22:32 – Importance of measurement and data tracking, with a focus on ensuring product success metrics are defined pre-launch and monitored post-launch.
• 22:33 - 25:49 – Challenges in data collection, particularly in "digital adaptive" businesses transitioning from legacy systems, making it difficult to track clear success indicators.

• 25:50 - End – Key lesson: Not all businesses have perfect data, and product managers must work with what’s available, making informed correlations where necessary.

Connect with Megan on LinkedIn

Join us on Path2Product to gain hands-on product management experience and build a PM Portfolio to land your first PM job!

Episode Summary:

In this episode, John Fontenot explores a thought-provoking topic: the potential consolidation of Product Management (PM) and User Experience (UX) roles due to advancements in Generative AI. He examines the overlap between these two disciplines, the evolving responsibilities of PMs and UX designers, and how organizations may react to increased efficiency through AI.

Key Takeaways:

1. Understanding the Unique Roles of PM and UX Designer (00:25 - 02:32)

• PMs focus on business objectives, prioritization, roadmaps, stakeholder management, and go-to-market strategies.

• UX designers specialize in information architecture, interaction design, prototyping, and usability testing.

• Despite distinct roles, there is a significant overlap, particularly in customer research, solution ideation, and user flow testing.

2. Will AI Eliminate the Need for Both Roles? (02:35 - 06:50)

• AI can increase efficiency, but does it replace UX or PM roles entirely?

• Many organizations underutilize UX designers, treating them primarily as visual designers.

• AI efficiency gains should ideally allow both roles to focus on higher-level strategic work rather than replacing either.

3. The Risk of Role Consolidation (06:55 - 09:25)

• Companies with limited UX investment might see AI as an opportunity to eliminate UX roles, shifting responsibilities to PMs.

• Similarly, strategic UX professionals who engage with stakeholders and business objectives could replace PMs in certain organizations.

• PMs focused only on execution (e.g., writing JIRA tickets) may find their roles at risk in the future.

4. The Need for Cross-Skilling (09:30 - 13:40)

• PMs should develop UX skills (e.g., using Figma, understanding usability principles) to become better collaborators and future-proof their careers.

• UX designers should engage more in strategy, business alignment, and product thinking to solidify their role.

• Organizations benefit when both disciplines embrace AI efficiencies while maintaining their unique expertise.

5. Future-Proofing Your Career (13:40 - End)

• PMs and UX designers should leverage AI as a tool rather than fearing replacement.

• Developing cross-functional skills ensures career longevity and adaptability.

In this episode ofLessons in Product Management, host John Fontenot tackles a listener's question:How can a product manager succeed in a waterfall environment? He acknowledges that while Agile is often the preferred framework, many industries and organizations still operate in waterfall models, making adaptability key.

Fontenot offers two approaches:

1. The Ideal Scenario – Where leadership is open to change, product managers can integrate discovery into waterfall planning by validating key assumptions upfront, treating specifications as hypotheses rather than rigid plans, and advocating for continuous learning.
2. The Less-than-Ideal Scenario – When change is difficult, PMs should still find ways to gather feedback on in-flight projects, document assumptions, and leverage data to push for iterative improvements.

His key message: Regardless of methodology, success lies in how PMs use the time between releases to refine strategies and make data-driven decisions.

If you're an aspiring PM looking to gain real, hands-on product management experience OR if you're a current PM looking to augment your current experience in other domains, come join us atPath2Product where you'll solve real problems from real users of real products.

Do you feel constantly pressured to ship new features? Do you get the space you need for proper discovery?

Most Product Managers feel this pressure, and I was recently asked on LinkedIn why this is the case. What about our company cultures or human nature drives this desire for more new stuff? In this episode, I attempt to break down the top 3 reasons why I believe Product culture drives outputs over outcomes, even we say we want the opposite.

Linkedin Post

If you're looking to get your shot at a job in product management and not sure how to get the experience you need to make that leap, come join us onPath2Product where over 1,200 aspiring PMs are not only learning what the job is really like, but they are gaining hands-on experience and developing their portfolio to stand out in the job market.

On today's Lesson in Product Management, this one is for the perfectionists out there.

If you consider yourself a "creative" or an artist, you might be tempted to hide your work until you deem it "perfect" - but that could be hurting you more than you know. On this episode we break down why perfectionism hurts you and those around you and ultimately will set you back in your career and the progress you seek to make for customers.

If you're looking to get into product management but lack the years of experience you need to get in, look no further than Path2Product where we help you bridge the gap in product management experience, build a portfolio to prove your skills and prepare you for interviews and empower you to hit the ground running once you land that first PM job.

It's easy to get overly focused on "doing your job" as a product manager. Unfortunately, we risk taking too narrow of a view of what our job actually is.

When it comes to working with PMMs (product marketing managers), it's no different. And it's about time we start treating them like partners rather than someone we throw releases over the wall to and expect them to make our products sell.

If you're looking to get into product management and want the training and experience you need to get there, join us at Path2Product where we bridge the gap in product management experience for aspiring product managers.