For a long time, fire research in the moist forests of the Pacific Northwest was dominated by two main assertions: that wildfires in the West Cascades are typically "high-severity, low frequency" (in other words, primarily characterized by stand-replacing fires that don't happen very often), and that Indigenous burning largely took place in prairies, river valleys and low-lying oak ecosystems.

But extensive tree ring sampling over the last decade has shown that, in fact, these long-held assertions aren't telling the entire story.

Our guest for this episode is Dr. Andrew Merschel, who is a post-doc at Oregon State University and lead scientist/co-director of the Tree Ring Lab at OSU. Andrew has spent years studying fire histories in the moist, doug fir, hemlock and cedar-dominated forests of the West Cascades by analyzing stumps and tree core samples across the PNW. His work with the Tree Ring Lab has called to question many of our longest-held assumptions about how fires burned in the Pacific Northwest prior to colonization—and the takeaway is that it's not nearly as straightforward as we once thought. 

Andrew spoke about how fire "edits" forests over time, how these "edits" are crucial to the development of biodiversity, mature trees and old growth stands, and how we can use what we now know about "Westside" fire histories to inform management practices and wildfire resilience measures. We also spoke about how fire history on the Westside is not spatially or temporally stable, and that it doesn't operate on a cyclical basis; he and his team of research assistants and grad students have found, time and again, that fire histories can change based on what side of a ridge they're on, what part of a watershed they're in, what aspect they're at—making it a fascinating place to research how fire has interacted with the landscape over the last millennia. As Andrew says in this episode: "[In the East Cascades], I can tell you we'll find fire every 15 years at every site we go to. On the Westside it's an adventure, you don't know the story of each place until you get out there." 

We also spoke about how this research intersects with Indigenous history, how it can be used to inform management decisions, and how Andrew's team collaborates with community groups, tribes, land management agencies and others to help them establish a better understanding of fire history in specific areas. 

If you've ever had questions about how research can inform forest management decisions, about how researchers discern between Indigenous fire use and lightning-caused fires, or how we come to understand a place's relationship with fire over time, this is the episode for you. 

To learn more about the Tree Ring Lab, check out their website and consider reading up on some of their recent (and fascinating!) research from the West Cascades. 

To support Life with Fire, consider donating to our Patreon, writing us a review on Apple Podcasts, or telling a friend about us! 

Today's episode is about our favorite topic of all: wildfire information! Guest Noah Baker—the Wildfire, Climate and Community Health Specialist for the City of Flagstaff—guided us through the social science behind communicating about wildfire, the ways in which we need to modernize our communication pathways with the public, and why it has never been more important for wildland firefighters to talk about their work. Noah's done some great work in his role with Flagstaff, and has some solid recommendations for other folks who work at the city/county/state level and want to improve their relationships and trust with the public while communicating about wildfire risk. And whether you work in public information/comms/public affairs or not, you'll likely glean something insightful from this episode—not only did we talk about on-the-ground initiatives to improve relationships with the public, but we also went down some bigger-picture rabbit holes related to how we can improve our messaging and thinking around wildfire. 

One of Noah's biggest suggestions (one that Amanda very much agrees with) is that firefighters need to feel more empowered to not only share their story, but consider pathways in the communications/information space after they leave operational fire. To this end, if you're currently in fire and interested in the public information path, Amanda would be happy to answer any questions you might have about it—she's been a PIO for six summers now, please feel free to shoot her an email about it!

To support Life with Fire, please consider sharing this episode with someone who might like it, leaving an Apple Podcast review, or contributing to our Patreon! Patrons are currently keeping this ship afloat by covering our monthly costs for hosting and software—any support, via Patreon or otherwise, is deeply appreciated! 

Note: This episode was recorded in Spanish and primarily covers the resources and trainings that Manuel Machado and his colleagues at the Oregon State University Extension Program have created for Latine forestry workers. If you know anyone who could benefit from hearing about these programs and resources, please share this episode with them. 

En el tercer episodio de nuestra serie sobre la Fuerza Laboral Forestal Latina, la presentadora invitada Gaby Eseverri conversa con Manuel Machado, el Coordinador del Programa de la Fuerza Laboral de Recursos Naturales del Programa de Extensión de la Universidad Estatal de Oregón. Este episodio fue posible gracias al apoyo de Rivershed SPC, y estamos agradecidos por su ayuda para hacer realidad esta serie.

Manuel trabaja con organizaciones comunitarias en todo el Noroeste del Pacífico para desarrollar materiales educativos bilingües, centrados en el aprendizaje, dirigidos a trabajadores forestales con visas H-2B y a trabajadores inmigrantes del sector forestal. Al mismo tiempo, desarrolla programas que crean conciencia sobre la mano de obra de la fuerza laboral forestal. Su trabajo tiene como objetivo hacer que este empleo sea más seguro y equitativo, particularmente a través del involucramiento de la fuerza laboral forestal latina en Oregón.

Gaby Eseverri es una periodista ubicada en Missoula, Montana. Ella también colabora en la producción del podcast del Parque Nacional Glacier, Headwaters, el cual recomendamos ampliamente.

En este episodio, Gaby y Manuel conversan sobre la fuerza laboral forestal latina en el Noroeste del Pacífico, incluyendo la historia de esta fuerza laboral, cómo el estatus H-2B y la condición migratoria contribuyen a una cultura de explotación arraigada en el miedo a la deportación. También analizan los riesgos físicos, económicos y sistémicos que enfrenta esta fuerza laboral, y cómo el modelo y la creciente demanda de trabajos de resiliencia forestal dependen en gran medida de trabajadores H-2B e inmigrantes que con frecuencia reciben salarios bajos y son fácilmente explotados. Además, reflexionan sobre por qué la solidaridad no solo es importante, sino necesaria en estos tiempos.

Una nota: Este episodio fue grabado en noviembre de 2025, apenas unos meses después del incidente en el estado de Washington en el que dos bomberos forestales fueron detenidos por la Patrulla Fronteriza (la migra) mientras trabajaban en un incendio forestal activo. Puede encontrar más información sobre este incidente en el enlace.

https://abc7.com/post/patrulla-fronteriza-arresta-2-bomberos-mientras-combatian-incendio-forestal-en-el-estado-de-washington/17685497/

In the second episode of our Latino Forestry Workforce series, guest host Gaby Eseverri speaks with Manuel Machado, who is the Natural Resource Workforce Program Coordinator for the Oregon State University Extension Program. This episode was made possible with support from Rivershed SPC, and we are immensely grateful for their help in making this series happen. 

Manuel works with community-based organizations across the Pacific Northwest to develop bilingual learner-centric educational materials for H-2B and immigrant forestry sector workers, while developing programming that raises awareness of the labor-intensive forest workforce. His work aims to make this work safer and more equitable, particularly through engagement with the Latine forestry workforce in Oregon.

Gaby Eseverri is a journalist based in Missoula, Montana, and originally from Miami. In addition to print journalism, she also helps produce Glacier National Park's Headwaters Podcast, which we highly recommend you check out. 

In this episode, Gaby and Manuel spoke about the Latine forestry workforce in the Pacific Northwest, including the workforce's history, how H-2B and immigrant status contributes to a culture of exploitation rooted in a fear of deportation, as well as the nature of forestry and fire work. Gaby and Manuel also discuss the physical, economic and systemic risks faced by this workforce, and how the model and increasing demand for forest resilience work—which includes post-fire restoration, thinning/wildfire risk reduction, and other essential forestry tasks—relies heavily on often underpaid and easily-exploited H-2B and immigrant workers. 

Please note that we will be releasing a third and final episode on this topic in a few days. This final episode—also hosted by Gaby with guest Manuel— will be published in Spanish, and will focus more on the resources, training and educational materials Manuel has created and made available for the Latine workforce on Oregon and beyond. 

Another note: This episode was recorded in November 2025, just a few months after the incident in Washington State when two wildland firefighters were detained by Border Patrol on an active wildfire. More information about this incident can be found at the links below. 

https://utahnewsdispatch.com/2025/08/30/immigration-raid-at-washington-blaze-stokes-fear-in-wildfire-crews-nationwide/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-agents-arrest-fire-crew-members-washington-wildfire-rcna227797

A few highlights from the conversation (full transcript can be found here): 

"So a lot of the work that the Latine workforce is involved in what land management agencies refer to as forestry services. So this includes everything from planting work, hazardous fuels reduction work, tree thinning, forest restoration, pesticide application. Also, increasingly they're doing more work in fire suppression. So working on the fire line, much of that labor intensive work."

"Many of these contractors are based in Southern Oregon, and although they're based here in Medford, in the Rogue Valley, and they travel all over the Pacific Northwest and the US, the workers themselves are brought primarily from Mexico and increasingly from Guatemala and Central America as h-2b visa workers. So the amount of h-2b visa workers is increasing."

"The way the forest service handles contracting often awards the lowest bidder, and although this does ensure a lower price per acre, often means that the workers don't get paid as much as I believe they deserve."

"With undocumented workers, you know there's that added layer of vulnerability, because they face deportation, and although they can change employers because they have specified documents which allow them that flexibility to change employers, if the employer, at any time, finds out that they are documented, they face that added risk of using that as a threat against them. Given the policies that we're seeing, there's likely to be an increase in labor violations and just less enforcement due to these policies we're seeing under the Trump administration."

"It's really just an entire system that's turned on them at a time when I think their work so important, right? They are literally the ones planting trees after fire, or the ones who are fighting fire, the ones who are implementing those treatments that reduce fire risk and restore our forests."

"I think a good example (of something actionable) could be for firefighters. We often hear them advocating for better pay and working conditions…but it's important for them to understand that, you know, if an increasing portion of the firefighting workforce is reliant on h-2b visa workers that don't have the same rights, well, then what can they do to build solidarity with those H-2b visa workers? A rising tide will lift all boats, so they have to really consider all of these different segments of the workforce if they want to be more effective at actively bargaining for those working conditions and better pay."

"So I always ask the workers themselves, what's something that you would like the general public or policymakers or decision makers to know? What would you tell them, if you had the opportunity to speak with them? The most common responses that I've gotten is that they just want more for the important work that they do." 

We all hear a lot about the need to significantly scale up our forest adaptation and resilience work—that is, thinning, replanting, prescribed burning and other tasks that are essential in preparing for and recovering from wildfire.

But what's often lost in this conversation is *who* is doing this work, and the future of that—at times, fraught—workforce in the face of increasing ecosystem needs in the West. It's one thing to say we need to get something done, but another thing entirely to know where that work is coming from, and the conditions those workers are facing. How can we ensure these folks are supported and being treated equitably in often unsafe, fast-paced and high-exposure jobs?

In the Pacific Northwest, a not-insignificant portion of forestry sector workers are Latine, many on H2B visas, which are temporary, non-agricultural working visas. Today's guest Emily Jane (E.J) Davis—along with co-authors Carl Wilmse, Manuel Machado and Gianna Alessi—aimed to learn more about these workers in a paper published in 2023 called Multiple Stories, Multiple Marginalities: The Labor Intensive Forest and Fire Stewardship Workforce in Oregon. 

What they found is that this type of employment leaves workers vulnerable to exploitative labor practices and working conditions, a lack of training and resources that result in critical leadership and safety gaps on site, and a lack of power or ability to organize or unionize to improve conditions. Recent ramping up of immigration enforcement is also having an impact on this workforce, as evidenced by the DHS raid on a fire in Washington State this summer. Rigoberto Hernandez Hernandez, one of the two firefighters who were detained, was released four weeks later. The other—José Bertín Cruz-Estrada, who'd worked in fire since 2019 but was undocumented—was deported to Mexico after two months of detainment.  Both worked on Oregon-based contract fire crews. 

In this episode, EJ—who is an associate professor at Oregon State University and the fire program director for the OSU extension—and I dive more deeply into some of the key takeaways of her research, some of the practical applications of that research through her extension position, and what the future of this research looks like. We discussed labor issues more broadly in the forestry and fire workforces, and how these challenges are often amplified considerably for marginalized communities in these positions, and particularly for the Latine workforce. 

E.J.'s biggest takeaway? If we truly hope to increase forest treatments and recovery work to the scale needed to make a meaningful difference, we need to not only acknowledge the challenges of the folks who are actually doing that work, but do everything we can to address those challenges and develop a more sustainable forest sector workforce for the work that awaits us.

Welcome to our second episode with women and non-binary firefighters who have written books about their experiences working both in fire and on hotshot crews more specifically. Our guest for this episode is HOTSHOT author River Selby (they/them), who spent seven years as a wildland firefighter—four of which were as a hotshot—from 2000 to 2010. They've since gotten their undergrad and MFA (in fiction) at Syracuse, and are currently working towards a PhD in Nonfiction with an emphasis in postcolonial histories, North American colonization, and postmodern literature and culture. This unique background allowed River to create a phenomenally in-depth book that covers not only their own experiences of working on crews and personal vignettes of life on and off the fireline, but it also paints a rich history of different fire ecologies across the American West (and world), and how colonization and fire suppression in the Western US (and elsewhere!) have set the stage for our modern relationship with fire. 

In our conversation, River and I talked about how firefighting allowed them to heal and grow, in a way, from the addiction, homelessness and violence that they had experienced in their youth. We spoke about some of the more academic themes of the book, including how colonization really informed our modern culture of fire suppression and—by extent—the culture of hotshotting. We spoke about the importance of Indigenous practices and land stewardship in righting this ship, as it were, and chatted a bit about our own experiences with hotshot culture and how it framed our experiences on fire crews. 

Click here to buy River's book HOTSHOT: A Life on Fire!

Click here to read an excerpt of HOTSHOT, which was published in High Country News in August.

Click here for River's book tour dates over the next few weeks. 

Click here to support Life with Fire's Patreon, which is helping keep this ship afloat while Amanda is in grad school. 

We're bringing you two, count em TWO, episodes with women and non-binary firefighters and writers who have written books about their experiences working both in fire and on hotshot crews more specifically. The first in this short series is with author Kelly Ramsey, whose book WILDFIRE DAYS was released in June. Kelly and I spoke about some of the emotional toll of fighting fire—including the terrifying feeling of not feeling like you belong, especially in such an intense work environment—as well as the process of writing a book (including the nearly 50,000 words she wrote in her Notes app during her time in fire). A large part of our conversation centered on the many intricacies of hotshot culture that we both witnessed (and which, in some cases, left us both confounded). Many anecdotes, laughs and shared experiences ensued. This was a fun one to record and hopefully it's just as fun to listen to!

Here's another link to Kelly's book in case you missed the first one ;) 

Here's the Life with Fire Patreon, in the event you'd like to support me through the transition to grad school (where I will continue to publish podcast episodes, and will have much more access to lots of smart fire people as I'll be in Missoula!)

Welcome to our second episode with THE Stephen Pyne! Stephen is a renowned author and fire historian who, in addition to his academic life, also spent over a decade working on a fire crew on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon early in his career. Given this background, he seemed like quite possibly the perfect person to chat with about the recent Dragon Bravo Fire in Grand Canyon National Park. 

For a quick primer, the Dragon Bravo Fire started three miles north of the North Rim of the Grand Canyon during a lightning storm on July 5th. On Sunday, it destroyed the historic Grand Canyon Lodge and dozens of other buildings in the adjacent complex. It was being managed for resource benefit, or was in other words a "managed fire". I’m not going to go into all the details on the fire itself, but here’s a thorough, measured analysis from my friend Zeke at the Lookout regarding what took place over the week or so that the fire was being “managed for resource benefit” (I’ll get into what this means in a minute). Zeke also provides some of the behind the scenes context on wildfire decision making and some other educated thoughts that are very deserving of your time.

Stephen, as you'd expect, had some great perspective to share about this event. While we avoided armchair quarterbacking the decision making on the fire, Stephen was able to speak a bit about the decades of precedent for this kind of wildfire tragedy in the Southwest, about the background of managed fire use in the National Parks, and how important managed fire can be to reducing wildfire risk—but only if we acknowledge the limitations of managed fire policy and take more strides to improve our processes and learn from our mistakes. 

One of the improvements Stephen advocates for is being more forthcoming about managed fire with the public, which would include agencies being very clear about what managed fire is and isn't, what the objectives of managed fire typically are, what preparations have been made to make managing a fire the right decision and also—importantly—that mistakes can happen and how we can better prepare in the event that they do. 

The biggest takeaway from this episode is that we've done a poor job of building trust with the public, and especially so around the practice of managed fire. Perhaps now is a good time to have that conversation, and to figure out how we can reframe this conversation so that people get more of a glimpse at managed fire when it goes right?

For more background on Stephen, check out his TED Talk on how fire shapes everything, or this great essay he published in Scientific American last spring.

Welcome to the third and final episode of our Community Wildfire Resilience Series, supported by Fire Aside!

In this episode, we spoke with Butte County Fire Safe Council Executive Director Taylor Nilsson. Butte County, CA has seen more catastrophic fire in the last eight years than most places in the West, possibly even the world. Starting with the Camp Fire in 2018 (85 killed, 14,000 homes lost), then the North Complex in 2020 (16 killed, 2,300 structures lost), then the Park Fire in 2024 (700+ structures destroyed), Butte County has seen 50% of its Wildland Urban Interface impacted by wildfire in the last seven years, and over 90% of its WUI impacted since 1999. This being the case, folks in this area have a deep understanding not only of preparing for wildfire, but of the long process of recovering from it—while knowing from experience that they simultaneously need to be preparing for the next one. 

Taylor spoke about the challenges of preparing for more fire while also recovering from—in Butte County's case—multiple deeply impactful wildfires that communities are still reeling from. In what has become an increasingly common occurrence in California, communities can still be deep in the recovery phase as a fire scar cycles back into susceptibility to wildfire. The Camp Fire scar, for example, is becoming increasingly at risk to more wildfire, particularly as these previously forested landscapes have become more brush-dominated post-fire. 

Reforestation and restoration in such landscapes (particularly those undergoing a vegetation type conversion) is tricky, and Taylor speaks to this too—to the realities of salvage logging and how this practice can fit into sound restoration planning, as well as to the lack of technology to handle the significant biomass that needs to be removed to make recently un-burned landscapes in Butte County more resilient to future fire. We talked about the immense community trauma, and how Taylor and the Butte County staff have worked through their own healing processes while facing this community trauma firsthand. 

Above all, this episode highlighted the critical work that Fire Safe Councils in California do, in part because they are working one-on-one with community members in many cases and can therefore be a consistent, guiding presence through the wildfire preparedness, response and recovery phases. Communities and residents recovering from wildfire need a sustained, familiar presence like this, and this is exactly the type of thing that reduces recovery timelines and helps communities heal. 

As we wrap up this series, we want to once again thank Fire Aside for their support of the last three episodes of the podcast. Support like this allows us to keep this thing rolling, and we can't express how grateful we are to our supporters—past and present, including on Patreon! Thank you, thank you, thank you for believing in what we're doing!

Check out Butte County FSC on their socials (linked below)! Whether you live in Butte County or not, I think their website and some of their programming is very replicable elsewhere, so give them a follow and remember—imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/buttefiresafe

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/buttefiresafe/?hl=en

Website: https://buttefiresafe.net

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/butte-county-fire-safe-council/

Time Stamps: 

00:00 - Episode Start
00:42 - Amanda Intro
07:39 - Taylor's Background
09:45 - Recent Fires In Butte County
12:08 - Dealing with Hazard Trees
14:56 - Trauma-Informed Care Post-Fire
17:36 - Recovery Takes Multiple Years
18:52 - Current Butte County Work On Burn Areas
21:45 - Cost Of Removing Hazard Trees
22:41 - Presence of Blue Stain In Recently Burned Areas
24:56 - Salvage Logging as Part of Restoration Planning
25:45 - Mill Infrastructure In Butte County
28:26 - Butte County Population Response
29:47 - Participation Rates in Fire Safe Council Programming
31:35 - How Fire Aside Has Bolstered The Work the Butte County FSC Is Doing
38:04 - Communities Are Struggling With Staffing—What Does This Mean For Recovery?
40:12 - Fire Safe Council In Collaboration with Other Local Entities
41:06 - Butte County Collaborative Group
43:51 - The Importance of Sharing Lessons Learned 
45:43 - Prioritizing the Knowledge and Practices Of Local Indigenous Tribes
46:45 - Amanda Outro
47:32 - End Of Episode

Welcome to the second episode in our series about community-level wildfire resilience, supported by Fire Aside! We spoke with Fire Aside CEO and co-founder Jason Brooks about how Fire Aside—a home assessment platform that allows agencies to have direct 1:1 engagement with residents on resilience actions they can take—fits into bigger picture policy, data and decision making around community wildfire resilience in California and beyond.

Fire Aside was developed in Marin County, CA alongside the county fire department there, a partnership that was spurred by Jason's own interest in improving the wildfire resilience of his own property and not knowing exactly where to start. That was in 2020—now, Fire Aside is being used by over 100 departments in nine states to increase the efficiency of their home assessment processes and improve engagement with residents who want to improve their defensible space and home hardening. 

It's become clear that increasing resilience actions at the neighborhood level, rather than just the homeowner level, is the best way to meaningfully reduce risk in the WUI, where fires often spread home to home rather than via vegetation; this scale piece is a huge part of what Fire Aside does, and is what makes it such a compelling technology in an era of urban conflagrations like those in LA this winter (or Boulder, Lahaina, Paradise etc before). Jason and I spoke about the impetus for developing the platform, as well as how it can potentially be utilized to help inform decision making and even funding needs at the city or county level. Down the road, the data procured from Fire Aside may even be useful in informing state policy or other big picture decision making. (Disclaimer: Fire Aside does not own any of the data that is compiled through the app/platform. Residents and departments using the platform own this data.)

We appreciate Fire Aside's work and their support of this series on community resilience—if you or your organization are responsible for wildfire risk assessments, we really can't recommend this technology enough. 

A few action items!

Consider following Fire Aside on Linkedin. 

Check out some Fire Aside testimonials on Youtube. 

Slightly unrelated but please consider supporting justice and exoneration for firefighter Brian "Hakiym" Simpson. You can read about the case here. You can sign the petition here, or donate to a local mutual aid organization supporting Hakiym here.