Love in Action

Episode Recap:

Career development is broken, and our expectations have not kept pace with the reality of today’s workplace, according to today’s guest, Julie Winkle Giulioni. Julie co-authored the classic bestseller Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go, which has been re-released in an expanded version. Julie argues that career development is the single most powerful tool managers have for driving retention, engagement, productivity, and results, and she provides managers with the types of conversations they must have with their employees. Today, we’re talking about developing and growing employees.

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Quotes:

• Treating development as an annual checkmark, an “I don’t have time” mentality, and talent scarcity—these are all common mistakes managers make when it comes to career development. Guest Julie Winkle Giulioni explains the challenges in organizational career development. “There are assumptions that lie under the surface, that drive behavior that is not in the leader, nor the employee, nor the organization's best interest.” [13:07]
• Development is driven by relationships and conversations—small pockets of time already enveloped in the time we’re spending with our team. It’s all about conversation. Julie profoundly exclaims that it’s not about something on your to-do list; it's about who you are. “The key is to underburden ourselves as leaders when it comes to development.” [15:58]
• It’s no secret that organizations have gone through a lot of changes since the pandemic. With more people working remotely, productivity and performance have continued to be maintained—but what about development? Julie dedicated an entire chapter to this quandary. After surveying, she found it’s all about intentionality—something as simple as weekly one-on-ones with five minutes centered on development. “There is no silver bullet. What you need to do is everything you would do with people who are co-located but do it with greater intention.” [22:40]
• Straight up is not the only path for your development. Julie shares an analogy that compares the career ladder to rock climbing—the challenge and experience that comes from stretching out and trying something new right where you are, with *and* without support. “We are always feeling like growth looks like going somewhere else, when the truth is the only thing we have full control over in our work is our work... and there is so much room for improvement there.” [32:19]
• The world is changing, and we are all aware of it. Roles are changing, jobs are changing, so how can we future-proof our careers? When Julie looks into her “crystal ball,” she shares her vision for the future of career development over the next decade. “Less of a focus on pathways, and more of a focus on possibilities.” [37:12]
• Hopes, dreams, fears, aspirations… these are all parts of development and represent a truly intimate way we interact with our teams. Leaders who embody this—it’s love in action. “Attending someone's development is the most loving way we interact as leaders with those around us.” [40:00]
• Key Takeaway: Julie brings home the episode with a final thought and the idea behind all her work: “Development is not a to-do. Development is a to-be. It’s a relationship. It’s how we show up day in and day out.” [40:40]

Mentioned in this episode:
Website: Julie Winkle Giulioni

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Episode Recap:

Marcel and guest Mitch Warner discuss the impact of Arbinger Institute’s work, particularly the book "Leadership and Self-Deception," on organizational transformation and the importance of self-awareness and humility in leadership. They also explored the concept of self-deception and its impact on decision-making and relationships, emphasizing the need for accurate perception and the ability to see oneself and others clearly for effective leadership. Lastly, they discussed strategies for overcoming self-deception and improving workplace relationships, including adopting an “outward mindset.”

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Quotes:

• “This new need in my life is all-consuming; it’s the need to be justified for not seeing you and responding to you truthfully, as a person. So how do I get that justification? In the very way I got it in that moment—by seeing you and me falsely, by deceiving myself.” [14:20] Guest Mitch Warner discusses self-deception across both the workplace and personal life. Self-deception is essentially lying to ourselves, often resulting in misplaced blame and sacrificing our happiness, success, and results. 
• “We will never see the lie that we’re telling ourselves, even though we’re the ones telling it. Because we need it and want it to be true, so we have to look for the red flags.” [19:10] Mitch emphasizes that we rarely recognize our own self-deception. Instead, we must stay vigilant for warning signs in our behavior. These red flags may appear in various forms, such as internally “lawyering up” to justify actions or avoiding others entirely. These signals suggest that something may be amiss, and we need the courage to follow them.
• “Anytime I, as a leader, walk around with an image of myself, that will undermine and undercut my effectiveness in every single leadership situation.” [22:29] Holding onto a particular self-image limits effective leadership, as Mitch explains. True leadership is about being present with and responsive to those around us without the interference of ego.
• “Anytime we encounter dysfunction, we find what we call collusion... groups that are mutually in self-destructive self-deception.” [30:24] This damaging behavior often permeates organizations at every level, creating a destructive “dance” in which self-deception feeds on itself across teams.
• “Once I’ve regained a sense of the humanity of the people around me, then I regain my effectiveness. Because now we’re just together in a different kind of connected way.” [32:45] Mitch illustrates how adopting an “Outward Mindset” changes our behavior by enabling us to see people as inherently valuable, as we see ourselves.
• Key Takeaway: “Go meet to learn, NOT meet to get.” [39:23] Mitch challenges listeners to schedule one meeting with no agenda—just genuine curiosity. This non-agenda conversation offers a chance to identify and address self-deception, fostering better understanding and collaboration

Mentioned in this episode:
Leadership and Self-Deception - Get the book from Arbinger
Arbinger Institute
Matt Warner on LinkedIn

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Quotes:

• “This Venn diagram has been the story of my life. How do I achieve really cool, hard stuff and at the same time be the best human I can be?” [11:16] Urs Koenig has a diverse background in endurance sports and intense careers. Whether ultra biking or working as a NATO military peacekeeper, the most impactful part of his life was finding balance in being a good person—this inspired his book, Unlock Leadership’s Secret Weapon: Radical Humility.
• “People often tell me, ‘If I show up with humility, I’m a pushover; I have no spine; I have no confidence.’” [22:28] Dispelling myths about humble leadership and moving away from the "heroic leader" model, Urs explains that humility is actually a prerequisite for confidence and a strong sense of self. It allows leaders to be vulnerable and open to feedback—critical components of humility.
• “The soft stuff—building more self-awareness, showing up with vulnerability—it’s not soft. The soft stuff is tough.” [30:25] Urs shares a powerful story of vulnerability from the CEO of Intuit. Leading with humility requires immense courage, as well as the work involved in developing these "soft skills": journaling, reflection, accepting feedback, and applying the necessary focus and thought.
• “The Platinum Rule requires me to really know my people on a meaningful level, so I can treat them the way they want to be treated.” [35:04] Urs contrasts the Golden Rule, "treat others the way you want to be treated," which he calls selfish, with the Platinum Rule. The latter encourages leaders and teams to have conversations about how they want to be treated and receive feedback.
• “Humble leadership sometimes means raising your voice or giving clear, direct orders. Let me be very clear—this is not about name-calling or yelling. It's about being firm, direct, and inviting feedback, all with the goal of raising performance.” [46:23] Urs shares a story from his time as a NATO Peacekeeper Commander, explaining how strong, safe workplace cultures thrive on openness and feedback. It’s not about agreeing on everything, but about being receptive to criticism.
• “Schedule one 'deepening the relationship’ meeting with one of your teammates.” [51:22] Marcel and Urs discuss humble leadership throughout the episode. To make the shift to Radical Humility, Urs suggests starting with a first step: strengthen the relationship with one teammate this week.
• Key Takeaway: Urs Koenig closes the episode with this message: “Be tough on results, tender on people. The notion that we either have to be a good human or a tough leader is a false dichotomy. We can all courageously do hard things in a human way.” [53:52]

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Mentioned in this episode:
Urs Koenig
Urs Koenig on LinkedIn
Radical Humility: Be a Badass Leader and a Good Human: Urs Koenig
Marcel Schwantes
Ma

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Quotes:

• “Othering is not according to someone else for expression, for dignity, for mutuality of their humanness. In some ways you’re saying they can be less than, conditional, or completely invisible and some way they don’t count.” [14:44] What is othering? john powell defines this important term and explains these expressions on a vast spectrum, from not acknowledging to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Othering happens on a gradient, being by one single person or entire groups like organizations and governments.
   
• “Those that can fit into the environment, those species actually thrive. But what happens when the environment changes? Can those species adapt? When the change is slow, inevitably yes. When the change is fast, it's not clear. [19:12] In 2024, it's clear that while in many ways we have become more accepting, the world is changing rapidly, causing anxiety and stress that increases instances of an expanding othering.
   
• “The driver is fear, and fear can be manipulated. Fear is not rational... How do you talk to the lizard brain? When fear is activated, it's not the prefrontal cortex; it's the amygdala, the part of the brain we share with the lizard…what this lizard is most afraid of? Not belonging. [50:43] As Marcel and john’s conversation shifts from othering to belonging, john explains that irrational part of our brain, “the lizard,” as the barrier we most often find to creating belonging.
   
• “A leader has many roles. But one role is to hold the container that holds everybody else... and tell the story. What does the company stand for?” [56:20] How can leaders create more belonging in their organization? The answer is to reflect the values of the institution as a priority. Create an atmosphere that makes it clear that human dignity is at the forefront.
   
• “Be hard on structures, and soft on people” [1:01:00] john brings attention to the need for systems and structures for harmony in the workplace, noting that too often it's the people we are hard on and the structures we let off softly.

Key Takeaway: Guest john a. powell closes out with a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” Commenting that it doesn’t just bend on its own; WE bend it, and even more so, we bend it toward belonging. As we move forward in history, we will move forward to a world where everyone belongs. 

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Mentioned in this episode:

Book: Belonging without Othering How We Save Ourselves and the World
Othering & Belonging Institute
john a. powell
Eddie Pate and Jonathan Stutz: How to Build a Culture of Belonging with Small Daily Actions (Ep #226)
Marcel Schwantes on LinkedIn
Marcel Schwantes

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Quotes:

• “This research is not to vindicate the bad apples; it is in fact to tell leaders you have to look inward and decide…is it me or my employees?” [14:25] As Marcel and his guests dive into the research, Charn explains the introspection required by good leaders to understand if their leadership might be causing workplace deviance and the necessary steps from that point instead of just passing blame. 
• “Are you socially aware enough of what is happening at work? The relationship between you and your employees? The relationship between the employees themselves? …If you’re really politically skilled, and if you’re a really good leader, you should be able to see the matrix.” [22:01] Parker Ellen discusses one of the foundations of political skill in a leader: social astuteness. This is all about taking a step back and seeing a different picture and how you may even be contributing to deviant behavior.
• “This is a time of transition in the workplace; if we can come at it from a collaborative place, we’ll have a lot of success.” [33:35] Katie Alexander touches on the coach and team mindset that younger generations are longing for in the workplaces that can provide feedback when needed but also create growth. This idea promotes the importance of a caring, hands-on, and dedicated leader that in many ways prevents workplace deviance. 
• “Are they appearing like a ‘bad apple’ because I’m highlighting that aspect of them in the way that I lead?” [39:14] Parker challenges the idea that there are either good or bad ‘apples’ and extends the thought that there are tendencies to either have both deviant and compliant actions in many people. Moreover, on how your own tendencies to not be the best leader can react with that. 
• “Take a second to listen to your employees and recognize why something might be happening. Sometimes on small affronts, we can attribute major things, but it might not be anything. That doesn't mean we can’t correct the behavior, but it also means we’ll have the ability to give them grace as a leader because we spent that time upfront. ”[46:55]  As all three guests share what love in action means to them, Charn shares a story from his time in the military exemplifying the need to give grace and again take a step back and see the whole picture in order to lead with love.  

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Mentioned in this episode:

MIT Sloan Management Review article: Bad Apples or Bad Leaders?
Charn McAllister on LinkedIn
[email protected]
Charn McAllister: It’s Important To Be Likable (Episode #50)
Katie C. Alexander onLinkedIn
B. Parker Ellen III on LinkedIn
[email protected]

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Quotes:

• “The mind-heart connection is essential; we can’t expect that we’re just going to exercise, eat right, and be healthy, and run a multimillion dollar business and not avoid having a heart attack from all the stress we’re ignoring.” [11:45] Guest, Dr. Jonathan Fisher, describes the core message behind Just One Heart. Caring for the mind-heart connection within yourself AND between our peers with our physiological responses and influences.
• “If I have to face you [a cardiologist], that means I’m having heart issues. But if I can manage the heart through those 4 dimensions—physical, emotional, social and spiritual—and live the kind of life, having the proper balance that addresses those 4 areas...this is life-changing.” [17:34] Host Marcel Schwantes responds to Dr. Fisher’s explanation on how cardiologists should be gauging heart health with their short 7 minutes of face-to-face time in the patient exam room.
• “People who don't have a sense of their core purpose and meaning and transcendent sense of belonging in life... Those people are at higher risk of dying young from heart diseases.” [26:02] Dr. Fisher elaborates on the heart crisis of today riddled with obesity, depression, anxiety, loneliness, and loss of purpose. This ‘Doom and Gloom’ only proves to emphasize the extreme need to focus on multidimensional heart health. 
• “I didn’t want to just avoid being sick. I wanted to live a good life.” [30:55] As he sets up the support for the message in his book, Dr. Fisher explains the 7 traits of a healthy heart that go beyond physical health. All listed in an intentional and meaningful order: Steadiness, Wisdom, Openness, Wholeness, Courage, Lightness, and Warmth.
• “We are often so harsh with ourselves... that it spills over and affects others negatively, and we don't know it until people tell us. So it begins by examining the way we speak to ourselves and treat ourselves. And we begin by treating ourselves with love and kindness.” [44:25] Working his way through the 7 traits from the book, Dr. Fisher poses step-by-step questions to assess and work on your heart. 
• “If I can just pause and be a little gentler to myself and treat myself with some ease and lightness, there’s this amazing spillover effect that everyone else around me can feel.” [48:12] As Marcel and Dr. Fisher close out their conversation, Dr. Fisher reminds and encourages listeners to be kind to yourself. It goes a long way. 

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Mentioned in this episode:

Jonathan Fisher, MD, FACC
Instagram - @happyheartMD
Jonathan Fisher on LinkedIn
Just One Heart: A Cardiologist’s Guide to Healing, Health, and Happiness
Episode 223: Dr. James Doty: The Neuroscience of Manifestation

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• “If you focus on just hiring a diversity of folks and you don’t focus on creating a culture of belonging, with inclusive leadership, people are going to come right in the front door and go right out the back door.” [20:03] That's what Jonathan Stutz calls a ‘leaky bucket’ when it comes to flipping the DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) to ID&E, putting the priority on inclusion. Jonathan and Eddie Pate discuss why inclusivity in the workplace is so important. They take an important stance on the nuance of race and gender inclusion.
   
• “The whole notion of micro inequities and micro advantages are these subtle actions, statements, or comments that significantly influence the way a person feels or how much they feel they belong. These are often targeted towards people who are underestimated—racial minorities, LGBTQ, and women in situations.” [37:45] Alongside micro vulnerabilities, microaggressions, and microinequities are actions that mute and remove talented individuals from a position of contribution. Eddie discusses how understanding these can help you and others around you see how micro-inequities and micro-advantages are being used and turn them around. He highlights The Platinum Rule, where instead of treating people how YOU want to be treated, treat them how THEY want to be treated.
   
• “You’re always going to hire the best candidate for the job, but having that diversity is something that needs to be there.” [53:10] What is candidate slating? How can you have an inclusive hiring process? Jonathan shares some tips on how to create effective diverse hiring, like creating a diverse hiring board as well as casting a wide net, including multiple outgroups or minorities, and removing tokenistic diversity from the equation. Eddie reaffirms the importance of this process by adding the need for inclusive hiring training for leadership.
   
• “How do we turn a meeting into a more inclusive meeting?” [56:21] Host Marcel Shwantes seeks ‘everyday pebbles’ tips to turn moments that everyone has across their workday into a more inclusive place, creating ripples through the organization. Eddie shares the ‘pause button’ as an agreed-upon process in a meeting to further discussion and slow down when it comes to hot topics. Jonathan dives into the importance of 1:1 meetings, a place to grow trust between manager and employee.
   
• “You have to be very clear: you are not going to drive this yourself. ID&E is not a top-down endeavor, and that’s how this works. It's top-down, middle-out, bottom-up.” [1:04:20] Eddie State CEOs need to not call out but call in, opening up to learning and taking accountability. Jonathan chimes in that inclusion is a daily endeavor with lots of little things, changing processes like SMART goals to SMARTIE—adding inclusion and equity to the consideration of everything.
  
  
• “This is a journey, not a destination. Inclusive leadership is leadership.” [1:10:55] As the three close out the episode, Jonathan and Eddie share their number one takeaways that drive home the point that inclusion is a non-negotiable priority as a leader of an organization, and the pebbles ripple throughout every employee's life. 

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Mentioned in this episode:

Daily Practice of Inclusive Leaders
Eddie Pate
Jonathan Stutz : Global Diversity Partners
Marcel

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• “The stories we tell are as, if not more, important than what happened” [8:29] As Peter Kim,  introduces his research on trust, he discusses how the narratives we portray and the reasons behind actions are the key pieces behind trust. This couldn't be a more critical point when society is so divided. 
  
  
• “If I’m to take the stance, 'no, my initial trust should be 0’... that would have had an enormous effect on my life to a degree where I wouldn't have been able to enjoy the vast number of experiences I’ve been able to have.” [17:30] Where does trust start and build? Peter explains how a higher level of trust as a baseline is crucial to life experiences, whether that be to travel and try new foods or to build relationships. With no trust comes no experience. He says we are better off with a high level of trust because, in general, it ends up to our benefit by self fulfilling prophecy.
  
  
• “What I’ve found is that as soon as you see it as a violation of integrity or an indication that they lack integrity… it’s almost impossible to repair that relationship.” [28:40] Is it possible to rebuild and repair trust? Peter explains that people in general do not believe that integrity can improve, but if they switch the lens of the reason for that breach of trust to be a competence issue like a lack of understanding or pressure from another factor, it is more likely for the trust to be repaired because we can see and believe that people can learn and increase competence. 
  
  
• “We see those in positions of power differently. We believe for example, that CEOs, if they are involved in a transgression, it’s more intentional.”[36:46] Similar to the way trust is perceived between outside groups, trust is more divided between positions of power and the people below them. CEOs face a difficult challenge of perception where people question their integrity and, even more so, the genuineness of their remorse when trying to correct transgressions. Peter explains how CEOs can rule out the idea or challenge of a ‘lack of integrity’ through their actions and the relationships they create with their followers and employees. 
  
  
• “Most people do want to do the right thing; [Netflix] has found [their HR policy] has been an extraordinarily helpful way of reducing bureaucracy, enabling freedom, creativity, and productivity at the organization. That is an approach based on seeing the good in people, believing people are trustworthy, and creating the atmosphere that allows that to flourish.” [42:02] Peter shares an example from the company Netflix in which their policy embodies the act of trust. Other organizations can also create this really effective environment of natural trust.

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Mentioned in this episode:

Peter H. Kim, PhD, Author
Peter Kim - Professor - University of Southern California - Marshall School of Business | LinkedIn
Marcel Schwantes on LinkedIn
Marcel Schwantes

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Quotes:

• “The heart has a causal role in modulating perception…how we think, how we feel.” [24:56] After Dr. Rollin McCraty walks us through his background and what brought him to HeartMath, we dive into the science of the heart. We all know the popular phrase I love you with all of my heart… It’s not I love you with all of my brain. In fact, there is a natural, scientific reason behind this simple expression of love. We have this sense that there is more to the heart, and science supports that.
• “What we feel, whether we’re frustrated or angry or impatient OR we’re more calm, or compassionate, appreciative, these emotions are directly reflected in the rhythmic pattern that the heart is beating.” [29:53] Dr. McCraty gets into the science of how the heart transports information through the thalamus to the brain, and what it means for this rhythm to be incoherent disruption is transmission through the thalamus.
• “The heart is carrying emotional state information…so what I’m saying, quite literally, is that we are broadcasting; we are radiating our emotions into the field. It doesn’t stop at the skin.” [42:57]  You can feel the tension in the room. This is a familiar phrase that has more truth than we might realize. The truth is, we are emanating our feelings, and others can feel them too. The power this has over the energy of a room is palpable.
• “You can learn a heart math technique on how to shift into coherence in minutes when you practice it, but how do you bring that in and sustain it within an organization?" [55:09] McCraty comments that it is not usually a culture shift that's needed, it's a climate shift. After today’s discussion about the way our emotions emanate around us, this makes perfect sense.
• “This is a technique called Shift and Lift; it’s something you can do with your eyes open ( no one needs to know you’re doing it), right when you’re in a meeting or dealing with a difficult client to create a more coherent environment. This is where we are taking responsibility for what we are putting into that energetic field.” [58:45] McCraty walks Marcel through this exercise from a Heart Math program that involves breathing and shifting your thoughts to kindness, love, and appreciation. Marcel shares how he visualized his way through this exercise.
• “If enough of us as individuals start taking that responsibility and adding that love, care, compassion, and kindness into the field, that makes it easier for others around us and globally to wake up their next level.” [1:10:33] As we close out our conversation, Dr. McCraty urges us to pause throughout the day and examine the feelings and emotions we’re holding onto. Are we putting out anger and frustration? Focus on how you can make that shift to love and care. The impact is one that will radiate around the world. 

Mentioned in this episode:
HeartMath Institute
Science of the Heart | HeartMath Institute
Rollin McCraty - Research Director - HeartMath Institute | LinkedIn
The Business Plan for Peace: Building a World Without War: Elworthy, Dr Scilla: 9781999816438
Marcel Schwantes on LinkedIn
Marcel Schwantes

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• “You’re the only person that can accept yourself, forgive yourself, and understand that we are all frail, fragile human beings and nonetheless, we all deserve to be loved.” [18:58] Jim Doty, author of “Mind Magic” starts the episode with the story of how he was helped to overcome his childhood trauma by the woman from the magic shop. He explains how, in many ways, trauma and unconscious baggage cause people to lose their Self agency seeking external affirmation. This validation seeking becomes an unconscious driver of your behavior, even manifesting perhaps the “bad” things that happen to you. 
• “I realized my actions were fear based because of what I felt my deficiencies were, and I was masking them by showing off to other people. Once I reoriented myself after this period of reflection, I realized its not about me and what really makes a life is to be of service to others.” [25:38] As a seriously successful neurosurgeon with a plethora of high value material possessions, one might think Jim ‘had it all’, but left with an emptiness inside even among his success, he entered a period of reflection that pointed him in a new direction. He shares later in the episode that even though he had manifested everything he wanted, he had not manifested what he needed.
• “When you don’t believe you deserve it, that limits you in achieving.” [36:40] What are you already manifesting? Jim explains how all of our habits and beliefs make up all of our decisions and actions, for good and for bad. You can use the power of the mind to change your life, whether that's your physiology or your intentions. 
• “Using these techniques, and the right mental framework greatly increases the likelihood of something manifesting if its going to manifest at all.” [43:47] Value Tagging is a technique Jim explains that acts as a filing system of your subconscious to assign value to your desires, dreams, and goals in the forefront of your mind. This isn’t a 100% ticket to reaching success, but it is highly more effective than living in a fear state or focusing and assigning mental value to things you don’t actually want.
• “The electromagnetic energy [from your heart] emanates about 3 to 5 feet outside of your body, and people are attuned to that.” [49:28] There are far more electromagnetic energies that contribute to human presence than most of us realize. Jim uses the example of being able to understand how your partner is feeling without saying a word, or how you can sense kindness from a stranger after only being around them briefly. These electromagnetic energies are processed and sent to the brain, so that when you train your brain intentionally, it not only affects you physiologically but also how you actually walk and interact in the world. 
• “You have to love yourself to give love to others. There is this fear of being your authentic self, and when that fear is the driver, it blinds you.” [1:19:24] As Marcel and Jim wrap up this conversation, Jim speaks to the leaders about love and authenticity and the powerful impact they have on an organization.

Mentioned in this episode:
James Doty
Mind Magic by James R. Doty, MD: 9780593541142 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books
CCARE Stanford
[email protected]
Happi.ai
Marcel Schwantes on LinkedIn
Marcel Schwantes

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