From one perspective, rituals are pure silliness. They might involve us waving our hands in a certain way and saying these exact words, in this exact order; we might put on a funny costume, or eat specific foods, or even subject ourselves to considerable amounts of pain. And we don't just perform these rituals once either—we tend to do them over and over again, year after year. Seen in this way, rituals are frivolous, expendable, and mind-numbingly repetitive. And yet they're also central. Rituals are found in abundance in all human cultures; they're a fixture of every historical period. So what's the story? How can we reconcile the apparent silliness of rituals with their centrality to our species? My guest today is Dr. Dimitris Xygalatas. He is Associate Professor in the Departments of Anthropology and Psychological Sciences at the University of Connecticut. He's also the author of the new book, <a href= "https://bookshop.org/books/ritual-how-seemingly-senseless-acts-make-life-worth-living/9780316462402"> Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living</a>. In the book, Dimitris makes the case that rituals are far from extraneous sideshows: they're enormously valuable, both for individuals and for groups, and they form a core part of what it means to be human. Here, Dimitris and I talk about some of the extreme rituals that he's studied, in particular, fire walking. We discuss the methods he uses to study these kind of traditions, especially unobtrusive physiological measures like heart rate monitoring. We also touch on: ritual-like behaviors in other species; what OCD behaviors have in common with certain ritual behaviors; why collective traditions often involve pain and synchronized movement; and how rituals serve to strengthen social bonds and enhance our well-being. If you enjoy this convo, be sure to check out Dimitris's book—I can recommend it heartily. And if you're enjoying Many Minds, perhaps consider <a href= "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/many-minds/id1499167824">posting a review or leaving us a rating</a>. Or maybe telling a friend, or three. Alright folks, on to my chat with Dimitris Xygalatas. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href= "https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XmUXhZ1A3XnsTIjGc6XBY70yqILw9BHC/view?usp=sharing"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:30 – Dr. Xygalatas wrote <a href= "https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315728711/burning-saints-dimitris-xygalatas"> a previous book</a> about firewalking in Greece. For his papers on various aspects of firewalking, see <a href= "https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1016955108">here</a>, <a href= "https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088355"> here</a>, and <a href= "https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cib.17609">here</a>, among others. 14:00 – The <a href= "https://www.experimentalanthropology.com/">website</a> for the Experimental Anthropology lab at UConn. 20:00 – A <a href= "https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1016955108">paper</a> in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues examined heart-rate synchrony in the context of a fire-walking ritual. 26:00 – A <a href= "https://www.science.org/content/article/kids-overimitate-adults-regardless-culture#:~:text=The%20findings%20suggest%20that%20overimitation,was%20a%20human%2Dspecific%20quirk."> popular article</a> about the concept of "over-imitation"—the idea that children will copy adults' actions with high fidelity, even if those actions have no clear causal effect. 27:00 – A <a href= "https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2009.0069">research article</a> discussing imitation and over-imitation in chimpanzees and human children. 28:00 – A <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709651042"> research article</a> about children's ritualistic behaviors and obsessive compulsive disorder. 31:00 – A <a href= "https://nautil.us/chimps-and-the-zen-of-falling-water-235527/">popular article</a> on the "waterfall display" originally described by Jane Goodall. A <a href="https://vimeo.com/18404370">video</a> about the display, put out by the Jane Goodall Institute. 34:00 – A <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027721002420"> recent study</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about pre-free-throw rituals in basketball players. 36:00 – A <a href= "https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-8721.2009.01649.x"> theoretical article</a> on the "compensatory control model." 40:00 – See <a href= "https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797612472910">this paper</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about the Thaipusam festival and how it promotes prosociality. 45:00 – For a classic exploration of synchronized movement, see the book, <a href= "https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674502307">Keeping Together in Time</a>, by the historian William H. McNeill. 48:00 – A <a href= "https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cib.17609">study</a> in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues explored the phenomenon of "collective effervescence" in the context of fire-walking. 50:00 – A <a href= "https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/705665">recent article</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about ritual and well-being. 51:50 – A <a href= "https://theconversation.com/burning-man-highlights-the-primordial-human-need-for-ritual-189967"> recent popular article</a> by Dr. Xygalatas about Burning Man as an example of modern collective ritual. Dr. Xygalatas recommends: <a href= "https://bookshop.org/books/the-sweet-spot-the-pleasures-of-suffering-and-the-search-for-meaning/9780062910561"> The Sweet Spot</a>, by Paul Bloom <a href= "https://bookshop.org/books/drunk-how-we-sipped-danced-and-stumbled-our-way-to-civilization/9780316453387"> Drunk</a>, by Edward Slingerland (featured in an earlier episode!) You can read more about Dr. Xygalatas's work on his <a href= "https://www.xygalatas.com/">website</a> and follow him on <a href= "https://twitter.com/xygalatas">Twitter</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href= "https://disi.org">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href= "http://kensycooperrider.com/">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href= "https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href= "https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href= "https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&id=9a24015789"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href= "https://disi.org/manyminds/">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href= "https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

From one perspective, rituals are pure silliness. They might involve us waving our hands in a certain way and saying these exact words, in this exact order; we might put on a funny costume, or eat specific foods, or even subject ourselves to considerable amounts of pain. And we don't just perform these rituals once either—we tend to do them over and over again, year after year. Seen in this way, rituals are frivolous, expendable, and mind-numbingly repetitive. And yet they're also central. Rituals are found in abundance in all human cultures; they're a fixture of every historical period. So what's the story? How can we reconcile the apparent silliness of rituals with their centrality to our species? My guest today is Dr. Dimitris Xygalatas. He is Associate Professor in the Departments of Anthropology and Psychological Sciences at the University of Connecticut. He's also the author of the new book, Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living. In the book, Dimitris makes the case that rituals are far from extraneous sideshows: they're enormously valuable, both for individuals and for groups, and they form a core part of what it means to be human. Here, Dimitris and I talk about some of the extreme rituals that he's studied, in particular, fire walking. We discuss the methods he uses to study these kind of traditions, especially unobtrusive physiological measures like heart rate monitoring. We also touch on: ritual-like behaviors in other species; what OCD behaviors have in common with certain ritual behaviors; why collective traditions often involve pain and synchronized movement; and how rituals serve to strengthen social bonds and enhance our well-being. If you enjoy this convo, be sure to check out Dimitris's book—I can recommend it heartily. And if you're enjoying Many Minds, perhaps consider posting a review or leaving us a rating. Or maybe telling a friend, or three. Alright folks, on to my chat with Dimitris Xygalatas. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:30 – Dr. Xygalatas wrote a previous book about firewalking in Greece. For his papers on various aspects of firewalking, see here, here, and here, among others. 14:00 – The website for the Experimental Anthropology lab at UConn. 20:00 – A paper in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues examined heart-rate synchrony in the context of a fire-walking ritual. 26:00 – A popular article about the concept of "over-imitation"—the idea that children will copy adults' actions with high fidelity, even if those actions have no clear causal effect. 27:00 – A research article discussing imitation and over-imitation in chimpanzees and human children. 28:00 – A research article about children's ritualistic behaviors and obsessive compulsive disorder. 31:00 – A popular article on the "waterfall display" originally described by Jane Goodall. A video about the display, put out by the Jane Goodall Institute. 34:00 – A recent study by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about pre-free-throw rituals in basketball players. 36:00 – A theoretical article on the "compensatory control model." 40:00 – See this paper by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about the Thaipusam festival and how it promotes prosociality. 45:00 – For a classic exploration of synchronized movement, see the book, Keeping Together in Time, by the historian William H. McNeill. 48:00 – A study in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues explored the phenomenon of "collective effervescence" in the context of fire-walking. 50:00 – A recent article by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about ritual and well-being. 51:50 – A recent popular article by Dr. Xygalatas about Burning Man as an example of modern collective ritual. Dr. Xygalatas recommends: The Sweet Spot, by Paul Bloom Drunk, by Edward Slingerland (featured in an earlier episode!) You can read more about Dr. Xygalatas's work on his website and follow him on Twitter. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://disi.org), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (https://disi.org/manyminds/), or follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

From one perspective, rituals are pure silliness. They might involve us waving our hands in a certain way and saying these exact words, in this exact order; we might put on a funny costume, or eat specific foods, or even subject ourselves to considerable amounts of pain. And we don't just perform these rituals once either—we tend to do them over and over again, year after year. Seen in this way, rituals are frivolous, expendable, and mind-numbingly repetitive. And yet they're also central. Rituals are found in abundance in all human cultures; they're a fixture of every historical period. So what's the story? How can we reconcile the apparent silliness of rituals with their centrality to our species? My guest today is Dr. Dimitris Xygalatas. He is Associate Professor in the Departments of Anthropology and Psychological Sciences at the University of Connecticut. He's also the author of the new book, <a href="https://bookshop.org/books/ritual-how-seemingly-senseless-acts-make-life-worth-living/9780316462402" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Ritual: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living</a>. In the book, Dimitris makes the case that rituals are far from extraneous sideshows: they're enormously valuable, both for individuals and for groups, and they form a core part of what it means to be human. Here, Dimitris and I talk about some of the extreme rituals that he's studied, in particular, fire walking. We discuss the methods he uses to study these kind of traditions, especially unobtrusive physiological measures like heart rate monitoring. We also touch on: ritual-like behaviors in other species; what OCD behaviors have in common with certain ritual behaviors; why collective traditions often involve pain and synchronized movement; and how rituals serve to strengthen social bonds and enhance our well-being. If you enjoy this convo, be sure to check out Dimitris's book—I can recommend it heartily. And if you're enjoying Many Minds, perhaps consider <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/many-minds/id1499167824" rel="noopener noreferrer">posting a review or leaving us a rating</a>. Or maybe telling a friend, or three. Alright folks, on to my chat with Dimitris Xygalatas. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XmUXhZ1A3XnsTIjGc6XBY70yqILw9BHC/view?usp=sharing" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:30 – Dr. Xygalatas wrote <a href="https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/9781315728711/burning-saints-dimitris-xygalatas" rel="noopener noreferrer"> a previous book</a> about firewalking in Greece. For his papers on various aspects of firewalking, see <a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1016955108" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>, <a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088355" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>, and <a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cib.17609" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>, among others. 14:00 – The <a href="https://www.experimentalanthropology.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">website</a> for the Experimental Anthropology lab at UConn. 20:00 – A <a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1016955108" rel="noopener noreferrer">paper</a> in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues examined heart-rate synchrony in the context of a fire-walking ritual. 26:00 – A <a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/kids-overimitate-adults-regardless-culture#:~:text=The%20findings%20suggest%20that%20overimitation,was%20a%20human%2Dspecific%20quirk." rel="noopener noreferrer"> popular article</a> about the concept of "over-imitation"—the idea that children will copy adults' actions with high fidelity, even if those actions have no clear causal effect. 27:00 – A <a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2009.0069" rel="noopener noreferrer">research article</a> discussing imitation and over-imitation in chimpanzees and human children. 28:00 – A <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709651042" rel="noopener noreferrer"> research article</a> about children's ritualistic behaviors and obsessive compulsive disorder. 31:00 – A <a href="https://nautil.us/chimps-and-the-zen-of-falling-water-235527/" rel="noopener noreferrer">popular article</a> on the "waterfall display" originally described by Jane Goodall. A <a href="https://vimeo.com/18404370" rel="noopener noreferrer">video</a> about the display, put out by the Jane Goodall Institute. 34:00 – A <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027721002420" rel="noopener noreferrer"> recent study</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about pre-free-throw rituals in basketball players. 36:00 – A <a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-8721.2009.01649.x" rel="noopener noreferrer"> theoretical article</a> on the "compensatory control model." 40:00 – See <a href="https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797612472910" rel="noopener noreferrer">this paper</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about the Thaipusam festival and how it promotes prosociality. 45:00 – For a classic exploration of synchronized movement, see the book, <a href="https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674502307" rel="noopener noreferrer">Keeping Together in Time</a>, by the historian William H. McNeill. 48:00 – A <a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.4161/cib.17609" rel="noopener noreferrer">study</a> in which Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues explored the phenomenon of "collective effervescence" in the context of fire-walking. 50:00 – A <a href="https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/705665" rel="noopener noreferrer">recent article</a> by Dr. Xygalatas and colleagues about ritual and well-being. 51:50 – A <a href="https://theconversation.com/burning-man-highlights-the-primordial-human-need-for-ritual-189967" rel="noopener noreferrer"> recent popular article</a> by Dr. Xygalatas about Burning Man as an example of modern collective ritual. Dr. Xygalatas recommends: <a href="https://bookshop.org/books/the-sweet-spot-the-pleasures-of-suffering-and-the-search-for-meaning/9780062910561" rel="noopener noreferrer"> The Sweet Spot</a>, by Paul Bloom <a href="https://bookshop.org/books/drunk-how-we-sipped-danced-and-stumbled-our-way-to-civilization/9780316453387" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Drunk</a>, by Edward Slingerland (featured in an earlier episode!) You can read more about Dr. Xygalatas's work on his <a href="https://www.xygalatas.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">website</a> and follow him on <a href="https://twitter.com/xygalatas" rel="noopener noreferrer">Twitter</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href="https://disi.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href="http://kensycooperrider.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href="https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href="https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href="https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&amp;id=9a24015789" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href="https://disi.org/manyminds/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod" rel="noopener noreferrer">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

The ritual species

And we're back. We're rested, we're rejuvenated, and we're ready for Season 4 of Many Minds! We're also, frankly, a bit hot. As I am recording this there is a heat dome parked over California and there is sweat under my headphones. But, more to the point, we've got a great episode to kick the new season off. My guest today is <a href= "https://alexfoundation.org/about/dr-irene-pepperberg/">Dr. Irene Pepperberg</a>. For more than forty years now, Irene has been doing groundbreaking research on parrots, with a focus on how they think and communicate. She is best known for her work with an African Grey parrot named Alex. Alex learned English words for numbers, shapes, colors, and more; he asked questions and talked to himself; he sometimes even invented words of his own. He was, in short, pretty remarkable. In this conversation, Irene and I talk about Alex, as well as his successors in the lab, Griffin and Athena. We talk about these animals' histories and personalities and their most impressive feats. We discuss how parrots are like human children in some ways—and unlike them in others. And while we talk a lot about verbal abilities, we also discuss visual working memory, delayed gratification, and optical illusions. Finally, we touch on the power of symbols, parrot communication and cognition in the wild, and the future of animal communication research. One quick production note: there are just couple of patches of fuzzy audio here. Please do stick with it though—things get smooth later on and this conversation is just too chock full of cool stuff, really wouldn't want you to miss it. Alright friends, a very warm welcome back, and on to my chat with Dr. Irene Pepperberg. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href= "https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hwRVUeH6fxKV3T34HOR3ppNcnbVrL5qz/view?usp=sharing"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:00 – For some reflections on the early days of "animal language studies," see Dr. Pepperberg's recent paper '<a href= "https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.647841/full">Nonhuman and nonhuman-human communication: Some issues and questions</a>.' 5:00 ­– Dr. Pepperberg is the author of two influential books about her research with Alex. The first is <a href= "https://www.harpercollins.com/products/alex-me-irene-pepperberg?variant=32205934002210"> The Alex Studies: Cognitive and Communicative Abilities of Grey Parrots</a>; the second <a href= "https://www.harpercollins.com/products/alex-me-irene-pepperberg?variant=32205934002210"> Alex & Me</a>, which was a New York Times bestseller. 6:15 – One of the <a href= "https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1439-0310.1975.tb00907.x"> original studies</a> on parrot vocal abilities by Dietmar Todt. For more on the "modelling" technique that Dr. Pepperberg adapted, see her <a href="https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/11/9/2479">recent paper</a>. 9:00 – Read <a href= "https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/science/10cnd-parrot.html">an article</a> that the New York Times published about Alex upon his death in 2007. 10:00 – Photos of Alex, Griffin, and Athena can be found on the <a href="https://alexfoundation.org/">Alex Foundation website</a>. 17:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about shape and color, see <a href= "https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03199646">here</a>. For one of her more recent studies on shape learning, see <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027716301020"> here</a>. 19:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about numbers, see <a href= "https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1439-0310.1987.tb00641.x"> here</a>. For a review of numerical concepts in the parrots, see <a href= "https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-006-0034-7">here</a>. 24:00 – Alex originally learned "none" in the context of learning the concepts of same and different. For the original paper, see <a href= "https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1901/jeab.1988.50-553">here</a>. 28:30 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent work on delayed gratification, see <a href= "https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2015-33094-001.html">here</a> and <a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2022-16663-001">here</a>. For a recent effort to "revisit" the classic Marshmallow Task in human children, see <a href= "https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6050075/">here</a>. 33:00 – For a recent study by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues on "inference by exclusion", see <a href= "https://brill.com/view/journals/beh/156/5-8/article-p409_2.xml">here</a>. 35:30 – A <a href= "https://www.science.org/content/article/wild-parrot-chicks-babble-human-infants"> popular article</a> about recent research showing that baby parrots babble. For discussion of babbling in baby bats, see our <a href= "https://manyminds.libsyn.com/bat-signals">earlier interview</a> with Dr. Mirjam Knörnschild. 37:00 – An <a href= "https://ketabak.org/sites/default/files/premack.pdf">older article</a> in Scientific American describing some of David Premack's work teaching apes to use symbols. 38:00 – A <a href= "https://jov.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2750448">recent paper</a> by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues involving a "shell game on steroids" (to test "visual working memory manipulation"). 41:00 – A <a href= "https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-10466-001?doi=1">recent paper</a> by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues looking at the parrots' ability to reason about probabilities. 43:30 – For the "transformative power of symbols" idea as it applies to humans, see <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661317300487"> here</a>. 45:00 – See Dr. Pepperberg's <a href= "https://www.animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/16/AB&C_2017_Vol4(3)_Pepperberg.pdf"> recent article</a> reviewing her research on visual perception in parrots, including work using optical illusions. 48:00 – A recent <a href= "https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1517131113">research article</a> comparing birds' and primates' brains. 51:00 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent reflections on the past and future of "animal language studies," see <a href= "https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-016-1101-y">here</a>. 54:00 – A short animated <a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YY4qxkqm3o&ab_channel=SRFKulturSternstunden"> video</a> explaining the "gavagai problem," which is associated with the issue of the "<a href= "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_of_translation">indeterminacy of translation</a>." You can read more about Dr. Pepperberg's work and collaborators—human and parrot!—at the <a href= "https://alexfoundation.org/">Alex Foundation website</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href= "https://disi.org">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href= "http://kensycooperrider.com/">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href= "https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href= "https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href= "https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&id=9a24015789"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href= "https://disi.org/manyminds/">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href= "https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

And we're back. We're rested, we're rejuvenated, and we're ready for Season 4 of Many Minds! We're also, frankly, a bit hot. As I am recording this there is a heat dome parked over California and there is sweat under my headphones. But, more to the point, we've got a great episode to kick the new season off. My guest today is Dr. Irene Pepperberg. For more than forty years now, Irene has been doing groundbreaking research on parrots, with a focus on how they think and communicate. She is best known for her work with an African Grey parrot named Alex. Alex learned English words for numbers, shapes, colors, and more; he asked questions and talked to himself; he sometimes even invented words of his own. He was, in short, pretty remarkable. In this conversation, Irene and I talk about Alex, as well as his successors in the lab, Griffin and Athena. We talk about these animals' histories and personalities and their most impressive feats. We discuss how parrots are like human children in some ways—and unlike them in others. And while we talk a lot about verbal abilities, we also discuss visual working memory, delayed gratification, and optical illusions. Finally, we touch on the power of symbols, parrot communication and cognition in the wild, and the future of animal communication research. One quick production note: there are just couple of patches of fuzzy audio here. Please do stick with it though—things get smooth later on and this conversation is just too chock full of cool stuff, really wouldn't want you to miss it. Alright friends, a very warm welcome back, and on to my chat with Dr. Irene Pepperberg. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:00 – For some reflections on the early days of "animal language studies," see Dr. Pepperberg's recent paper 'Nonhuman and nonhuman-human communication: Some issues and questions.' 5:00 ­– Dr. Pepperberg is the author of two influential books about her research with Alex. The first is The Alex Studies: Cognitive and Communicative Abilities of Grey Parrots; the second Alex & Me, which was a New York Times bestseller. 6:15 – One of the original studies on parrot vocal abilities by Dietmar Todt. For more on the "modelling" technique that Dr. Pepperberg adapted, see her recent paper. 9:00 – Read an article that the New York Times published about Alex upon his death in 2007. 10:00 – Photos of Alex, Griffin, and Athena can be found on the Alex Foundation website. 17:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about shape and color, see here. For one of her more recent studies on shape learning, see here. 19:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about numbers, see here. For a review of numerical concepts in the parrots, see here. 24:00 – Alex originally learned "none" in the context of learning the concepts of same and different. For the original paper, see here. 28:30 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent work on delayed gratification, see here and here. For a recent effort to "revisit" the classic Marshmallow Task in human children, see here. 33:00 – For a recent study by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues on "inference by exclusion", see here. 35:30 – A popular article about recent research showing that baby parrots babble. For discussion of babbling in baby bats, see our earlier interview with Dr. Mirjam Knörnschild. 37:00 – An older article in Scientific American describing some of David Premack's work teaching apes to use symbols. 38:00 – A recent paper by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues involving a "shell game on steroids" (to test "visual working memory manipulation"). 41:00 – A recent paper by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues looking at the parrots' ability to reason about probabilities. 43:30 – For the "transformative power of symbols" idea as it applies to humans, see here. 45:00 – See Dr. Pepperberg's recent article reviewing her research on visual perception in parrots, including work using optical illusions. 48:00 – A recent research article comparing birds' and primates' brains. 51:00 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent reflections on the past and future of "animal language studies," see here. 54:00 – A short animated video explaining the "gavagai problem," which is associated with the issue of the "indeterminacy of translation." You can read more about Dr. Pepperberg's work and collaborators—human and parrot!—at the Alex Foundation website. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://disi.org), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (https://disi.org/manyminds/), or follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

And we're back. We're rested, we're rejuvenated, and we're ready for Season 4 of Many Minds! We're also, frankly, a bit hot. As I am recording this there is a heat dome parked over California and there is sweat under my headphones. But, more to the point, we've got a great episode to kick the new season off. My guest today is <a href="https://alexfoundation.org/about/dr-irene-pepperberg/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Dr. Irene Pepperberg</a>. For more than forty years now, Irene has been doing groundbreaking research on parrots, with a focus on how they think and communicate. She is best known for her work with an African Grey parrot named Alex. Alex learned English words for numbers, shapes, colors, and more; he asked questions and talked to himself; he sometimes even invented words of his own. He was, in short, pretty remarkable. In this conversation, Irene and I talk about Alex, as well as his successors in the lab, Griffin and Athena. We talk about these animals' histories and personalities and their most impressive feats. We discuss how parrots are like human children in some ways—and unlike them in others. And while we talk a lot about verbal abilities, we also discuss visual working memory, delayed gratification, and optical illusions. Finally, we touch on the power of symbols, parrot communication and cognition in the wild, and the future of animal communication research. One quick production note: there are just couple of patches of fuzzy audio here. Please do stick with it though—things get smooth later on and this conversation is just too chock full of cool stuff, really wouldn't want you to miss it. Alright friends, a very warm welcome back, and on to my chat with Dr. Irene Pepperberg. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hwRVUeH6fxKV3T34HOR3ppNcnbVrL5qz/view?usp=sharing" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:00 – For some reflections on the early days of "animal language studies," see Dr. Pepperberg's recent paper '<a href="https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.647841/full" rel="noopener noreferrer">Nonhuman and nonhuman-human communication: Some issues and questions</a>.' 5:00 ­– Dr. Pepperberg is the author of two influential books about her research with Alex. The first is <a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/alex-me-irene-pepperberg?variant=32205934002210" rel="noopener noreferrer"> The Alex Studies: Cognitive and Communicative Abilities of Grey Parrots</a>; the second <a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/alex-me-irene-pepperberg?variant=32205934002210" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Alex &amp; Me</a>, which was a New York Times bestseller. 6:15 – One of the <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1439-0310.1975.tb00907.x" rel="noopener noreferrer"> original studies</a> on parrot vocal abilities by Dietmar Todt. For more on the "modelling" technique that Dr. Pepperberg adapted, see her <a href="https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/11/9/2479" rel="noopener noreferrer">recent paper</a>. 9:00 – Read <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/science/10cnd-parrot.html" rel="noopener noreferrer">an article</a> that the New York Times published about Alex upon his death in 2007. 10:00 – Photos of Alex, Griffin, and Athena can be found on the <a href="https://alexfoundation.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Alex Foundation website</a>. 17:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about shape and color, see <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03199646" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. For one of her more recent studies on shape learning, see <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027716301020" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. 19:00 – For an example of Dr. Pepperberg's classic work teaching the parrots to talk about numbers, see <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1439-0310.1987.tb00641.x" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. For a review of numerical concepts in the parrots, see <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-006-0034-7" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. 24:00 – Alex originally learned "none" in the context of learning the concepts of same and different. For the original paper, see <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1901/jeab.1988.50-553" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. 28:30 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent work on delayed gratification, see <a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2015-33094-001.html" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a> and <a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2022-16663-001" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. For a recent effort to "revisit" the classic Marshmallow Task in human children, see <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6050075/" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. 33:00 – For a recent study by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues on "inference by exclusion", see <a href="https://brill.com/view/journals/beh/156/5-8/article-p409_2.xml" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. 35:30 – A <a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/wild-parrot-chicks-babble-human-infants" rel="noopener noreferrer"> popular article</a> about recent research showing that baby parrots babble. For discussion of babbling in baby bats, see our <a href="https://manyminds.libsyn.com/bat-signals" rel="noopener noreferrer">earlier interview</a> with Dr. Mirjam Knörnschild. 37:00 – An <a href="https://ketabak.org/sites/default/files/premack.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer">older article</a> in Scientific American describing some of David Premack's work teaching apes to use symbols. 38:00 – A <a href="https://jov.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2750448" rel="noopener noreferrer">recent paper</a> by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues involving a "shell game on steroids" (to test "visual working memory manipulation"). 41:00 – A <a href="https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-10466-001?doi=1" rel="noopener noreferrer">recent paper</a> by Dr. Pepperberg and colleagues looking at the parrots' ability to reason about probabilities. 43:30 – For the "transformative power of symbols" idea as it applies to humans, see <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661317300487" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. 45:00 – See Dr. Pepperberg's <a href="https://www.animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/16/AB&amp;C_2017_Vol4(3)_Pepperberg.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer"> recent article</a> reviewing her research on visual perception in parrots, including work using optical illusions. 48:00 – A recent <a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1517131113" rel="noopener noreferrer">research article</a> comparing birds' and primates' brains. 51:00 – For Dr. Pepperberg's recent reflections on the past and future of "animal language studies," see <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-016-1101-y" rel="noopener noreferrer">here</a>. 54:00 – A short animated <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YY4qxkqm3o&amp;ab_channel=SRFKulturSternstunden" rel="noopener noreferrer"> video</a> explaining the "gavagai problem," which is associated with the issue of the "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminacy_of_translation" rel="noopener noreferrer">indeterminacy of translation</a>." You can read more about Dr. Pepperberg's work and collaborators—human and parrot!—at the <a href="https://alexfoundation.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Alex Foundation website</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href="https://disi.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href="http://kensycooperrider.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href="https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href="https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href="https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&amp;id=9a24015789" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href="https://disi.org/manyminds/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod" rel="noopener noreferrer">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

Birds with words

The world is bigger than you think. I don't mean geographically, though maybe that too. I mean in terms of its textures and sounds and smells; I mean in terms of its hues and vibrations. There are depths and layers to the world that we don't usually experience, that we might actually never be able to experience. Our senses just aren't wired to take it all in. We're simply not tuned to all the dimensions of reality's rich splendor. But there is a way we can appreciate these hidden dimensions: with a flex of the imagination, we can step into the worlds of other creatures; we can try out different eyes and noses; we can voyage into different perceptual universes. Or at least we can try. My guest today is Ed Yong, author of the new book <a href= "https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/616914/an-immense-world-by-ed-yong/"> An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Arounds Us</a>. Ed is a science writer for The Atlantic and the author of an exceptional earlier book on the microbiome called <a href="https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes">I Contain Multitudes</a>. This new book tours the wide diversity of animal senses. It asks what it's like to be a bat, sure, but also what it's like to be a star-nosed mole, a manatee, or a mantis shrimp. Informed by some truly extraordinary science, the book considers how it might feel to electrolocate around the ocean, to hear through the threads of a web, or to be tugged by the earth's magnetic field. There's a lot of praise I could lavish on this book, but I'll just say this: it really makes you feel more alive. Reading it makes everything, in fact, seem more alive. It makes the world seem richer, more vivid, somehow more technicolor and finely textured. It makes you realize that every organism, all the creatures we share this planet with, possesses a kind of vibrant genius all their own. After this episode we will be on a short holiday, and then we'll be gearing up for Season 4. If you have guests or topics you want us to cover, please send us a note. And, of course: if you've enjoyed the show so far, we would be most grateful if you would leave us a rating or a review. I know I say this all the time, and it's probably a bit annoying: but it really, truly helps, and I would personally, very much appreciate it! Alright friends, now to my conversation with Ed Yong. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href= "https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QB878BqylHIGpWxTVu6RJeuM1O6hwdaR/view?usp=sharing"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:30 – One of our earlier audio essays—<a href= "https://manyminds.libsyn.com/me-my-umwelt-and-i">'Me, my umwelt, and I'</a>—profiled von Uexküll and his concept of an Umwelt. 6:00 – The classic Nagel article '<a href= "https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/study/ugmodules/humananimalstudies/lectures/32/nagel_bat.pdf">What is it like to be a bat</a>?'; Mike Tomasello's recent variant, '<a href= "https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11229-022-03574-5">What is it like to be a chimpanzee</a>?', which we discussed just <a href="https://manyminds.libsyn.com/of-chimps-and-children">last episode</a>. 10:00 – <a href= "https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/delta-has-changed-pandemic-endgame/619726/"> One</a> of many articles by Ed about COVID-19. He was awarded a <a href= "https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/ed-yong-atlantic">Pulitzer prize</a> for his coverage of the pandemic. 14:30 – A <a href= "https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/11/22/20920762/proprioception-sixth-sense"> popular article</a> on proprioception. 19:00 – A <a href= "https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2011.1819"> research article</a> on the evolution of opsin proteins. 20:00 – A <a href= "https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(05)00686-X.pdf"> primer</a> on echolocation. 25:00 – A <a href= "https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-blogs/news-posts/pit-vipers-can-detect-prey-via-heat"> brief article</a> on heat-sensitive pits in snakes. 26:30 – An academic <a href= "https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s003590050396">article</a> about the "star" of the star-nosed mole. A <a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fio1NUxszhY&ab_channel=BBCEarthUnplugged"> video</a> showing the star-nosed mole in action. 31:00 – A <a href= "https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140107-starfish-sea-star-eyes-coral-reef-ocean-animal-science"> popular article</a> about the eyes of starfish. 32:00 – A <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/ampullae-of-lorenzini"> collection</a> of research articles about the Ampullae of Lorenzini. 35:00 – A very <a href= "https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2122789119">recent article</a> about spider webs as "outsourced" hearing. 38:00 – A <a href= "https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003347216302615"> research article</a> about aspects of bird song that humans can't hear. 40:00 – A <a href= "https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2412944/">study</a> by Lucy Bates and colleagues about how elephants operate with a spatial model of where their kin are. You can read more about Ed's work at <a href= "https://edyong.me/">his website</a>, catch up on his stories in <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/author/ed-yong/">The Atlantic</a>, or follow him on <a href= "https://twitter.com/edyong209">Twitter</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href= "https://disi.org">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href= "http://kensycooperrider.com/">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with help from assistant producer Cecilia Padilla. Creative support is provided by DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href= "https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href= "https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href= "https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&id=9a24015789"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href= "https://disi.org/manyminds/">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href= "https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

The world is bigger than you think. I don't mean geographically, though maybe that too. I mean in terms of its textures and sounds and smells; I mean in terms of its hues and vibrations. There are depths and layers to the world that we don't usually experience, that we might actually never be able to experience. Our senses just aren't wired to take it all in. We're simply not tuned to all the dimensions of reality's rich splendor. But there is a way we can appreciate these hidden dimensions: with a flex of the imagination, we can step into the worlds of other creatures; we can try out different eyes and noses; we can voyage into different perceptual universes. Or at least we can try. My guest today is Ed Yong, author of the new book An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Arounds Us. Ed is a science writer for The Atlantic and the author of an exceptional earlier book on the microbiome called I Contain Multitudes. This new book tours the wide diversity of animal senses. It asks what it's like to be a bat, sure, but also what it's like to be a star-nosed mole, a manatee, or a mantis shrimp. Informed by some truly extraordinary science, the book considers how it might feel to electrolocate around the ocean, to hear through the threads of a web, or to be tugged by the earth's magnetic field. There's a lot of praise I could lavish on this book, but I'll just say this: it really makes you feel more alive. Reading it makes everything, in fact, seem more alive. It makes the world seem richer, more vivid, somehow more technicolor and finely textured. It makes you realize that every organism, all the creatures we share this planet with, possesses a kind of vibrant genius all their own. After this episode we will be on a short holiday, and then we'll be gearing up for Season 4. If you have guests or topics you want us to cover, please send us a note. And, of course: if you've enjoyed the show so far, we would be most grateful if you would leave us a rating or a review. I know I say this all the time, and it's probably a bit annoying: but it really, truly helps, and I would personally, very much appreciate it! Alright friends, now to my conversation with Ed Yong. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available here. Notes and links 3:30 – One of our earlier audio essays—'Me, my umwelt, and I'—profiled von Uexküll and his concept of an Umwelt. 6:00 – The classic Nagel article 'What is it like to be a bat?'; Mike Tomasello's recent variant, 'What is it like to be a chimpanzee?', which we discussed just last episode. 10:00 – One of many articles by Ed about COVID-19. He was awarded a Pulitzer prize for his coverage of the pandemic. 14:30 – A popular article on proprioception. 19:00 – A research article on the evolution of opsin proteins. 20:00 – A primer on echolocation. 25:00 – A brief article on heat-sensitive pits in snakes. 26:30 – An academic article about the "star" of the star-nosed mole. A video showing the star-nosed mole in action. 31:00 – A popular article about the eyes of starfish. 32:00 – A collection of research articles about the Ampullae of Lorenzini. 35:00 – A very recent article about spider webs as "outsourced" hearing. 38:00 – A research article about aspects of bird song that humans can't hear. 40:00 – A study by Lucy Bates and colleagues about how elephants operate with a spatial model of where their kin are. You can read more about Ed's work at his website, catch up on his stories in The Atlantic, or follow him on Twitter. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (https://disi.org), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from assistant producer Cecilia Padilla. Creative support is provided by DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (https://disi.org/manyminds/), or follow us on Twitter: @ManyMindsPod.

The world is bigger than you think. I don't mean geographically, though maybe that too. I mean in terms of its textures and sounds and smells; I mean in terms of its hues and vibrations. There are depths and layers to the world that we don't usually experience, that we might actually never be able to experience. Our senses just aren't wired to take it all in. We're simply not tuned to all the dimensions of reality's rich splendor. But there is a way we can appreciate these hidden dimensions: with a flex of the imagination, we can step into the worlds of other creatures; we can try out different eyes and noses; we can voyage into different perceptual universes. Or at least we can try. My guest today is Ed Yong, author of the new book <a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/616914/an-immense-world-by-ed-yong/" rel="noopener noreferrer"> An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Arounds Us</a>. Ed is a science writer for The Atlantic and the author of an exceptional earlier book on the microbiome called <a href="https://edyong.me/i-contain-multitudes" rel="noopener noreferrer">I Contain Multitudes</a>. This new book tours the wide diversity of animal senses. It asks what it's like to be a bat, sure, but also what it's like to be a star-nosed mole, a manatee, or a mantis shrimp. Informed by some truly extraordinary science, the book considers how it might feel to electrolocate around the ocean, to hear through the threads of a web, or to be tugged by the earth's magnetic field. There's a lot of praise I could lavish on this book, but I'll just say this: it really makes you feel more alive. Reading it makes everything, in fact, seem more alive. It makes the world seem richer, more vivid, somehow more technicolor and finely textured. It makes you realize that every organism, all the creatures we share this planet with, possesses a kind of vibrant genius all their own. After this episode we will be on a short holiday, and then we'll be gearing up for Season 4. If you have guests or topics you want us to cover, please send us a note. And, of course: if you've enjoyed the show so far, we would be most grateful if you would leave us a rating or a review. I know I say this all the time, and it's probably a bit annoying: but it really, truly helps, and I would personally, very much appreciate it! Alright friends, now to my conversation with Ed Yong. Enjoy! A transcript of this episode is available <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QB878BqylHIGpWxTVu6RJeuM1O6hwdaR/view?usp=sharing" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>. Notes and links 3:30 – One of our earlier audio essays—<a href="https://manyminds.libsyn.com/me-my-umwelt-and-i" rel="noopener noreferrer">'Me, my umwelt, and I'</a>—profiled von Uexküll and his concept of an Umwelt. 6:00 – The classic Nagel article '<a href="https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/study/ugmodules/humananimalstudies/lectures/32/nagel_bat.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer">What is it like to be a bat</a>?'; Mike Tomasello's recent variant, '<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11229-022-03574-5" rel="noopener noreferrer">What is it like to be a chimpanzee</a>?', which we discussed just <a href="https://manyminds.libsyn.com/of-chimps-and-children" rel="noopener noreferrer">last episode</a>. 10:00 – <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/delta-has-changed-pandemic-endgame/619726/" rel="noopener noreferrer"> One</a> of many articles by Ed about COVID-19. He was awarded a <a href="https://www.pulitzer.org/winners/ed-yong-atlantic" rel="noopener noreferrer">Pulitzer prize</a> for his coverage of the pandemic. 14:30 – A <a href="https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/11/22/20920762/proprioception-sixth-sense" rel="noopener noreferrer"> popular article</a> on proprioception. 19:00 – A <a href="https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2011.1819" rel="noopener noreferrer"> research article</a> on the evolution of opsin proteins. 20:00 – A <a href="https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(05)00686-X.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer"> primer</a> on echolocation. 25:00 – A <a href="https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-blogs/news-posts/pit-vipers-can-detect-prey-via-heat" rel="noopener noreferrer"> brief article</a> on heat-sensitive pits in snakes. 26:30 – An academic <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s003590050396" rel="noopener noreferrer">article</a> about the "star" of the star-nosed mole. A <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fio1NUxszhY&amp;ab_channel=BBCEarthUnplugged" rel="noopener noreferrer"> video</a> showing the star-nosed mole in action. 31:00 – A <a href="https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/140107-starfish-sea-star-eyes-coral-reef-ocean-animal-science" rel="noopener noreferrer"> popular article</a> about the eyes of starfish. 32:00 – A <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/ampullae-of-lorenzini" rel="noopener noreferrer"> collection</a> of research articles about the Ampullae of Lorenzini. 35:00 – A very <a href="https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2122789119" rel="noopener noreferrer">recent article</a> about spider webs as "outsourced" hearing. 38:00 – A <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003347216302615" rel="noopener noreferrer"> research article</a> about aspects of bird song that humans can't hear. 40:00 – A <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2412944/" rel="noopener noreferrer">study</a> by Lucy Bates and colleagues about how elephants operate with a spatial model of where their kin are. You can read more about Ed's work at <a href="https://edyong.me/" rel="noopener noreferrer">his website</a>, catch up on his stories in <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/author/ed-yong/" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Atlantic</a>, or follow him on <a href="https://twitter.com/edyong209" rel="noopener noreferrer">Twitter</a>. Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute (DISI) (<a href="https://disi.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org</a>), which is made possible by a generous grant from the Templeton World Charity Foundation to UCLA. It is hosted and produced by <a href="http://kensycooperrider.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Kensy Cooperrider</a>, with help from assistant producer Cecilia Padilla. Creative support is provided by DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd (<a href="https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.mayhilldesigns.co.uk/</a>). Our transcripts are created by Sarah Dopierala (<a href="https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://sarahdopierala.wordpress.com/</a>). You can subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. **You can now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter <a href="https://disi.us8.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=f2f9dcb9dcef045d4d11ee6f9&amp;id=9a24015789" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>!** We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website (<a href="https://disi.org/manyminds/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://disi.org/manyminds/),</a> or follow us on Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/ManyMindsPod" rel="noopener noreferrer">@ManyMindsPod</a>.

A smorgasbord of senses

Welcome to 'Many Minds,' a podcast about the curious ways that mind manifests—in humans, animals, and machines. We spotlight the findings, theories, and phenomena that are changing how we think about minds. A text version of this episode is available <a href= "https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ru2AWr9XnYS4N_RkWCaVLm0Q7Uxeu6bH/view?usp=sharing"> here</a>.

Welcome to 'Many Minds,' a podcast about the curious ways that mind manifests—in humans, animals, and machines. We spotlight the findings, theories, and phenomena that are changing how we think about minds. A text version of this episode is available here.

Welcome to 'Many Minds,' a podcast about the curious ways that mind manifests—in humans, animals, and machines. We spotlight the findings, theories, and phenomena that are changing how we think about minds. A text version of this episode is available <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ru2AWr9XnYS4N_RkWCaVLm0Q7Uxeu6bH/view?usp=sharing" rel="noopener noreferrer"> here</a>.

Introducing 'Many Minds'

Our world is brimming with beings—human, animal, and artificial. We explore how they think, sense, feel, and learn. Conversations and more, every two weeks.

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