In this special crossover episode of Men of Steel, we kick off a two-part team-up with the Long Live the Legion podcast!

We’re diving into “Foundations,” the early 2000s arc from The Legion—with special guests Jim and Jay from LLtL and the artist of the arc himself, Chris Batista! Together, we explore Superman’s legacy in the 31st century, the evolving identity of the Legion, and what it was like illustrating this future-forward storyline.

Part 2 continues on Long Live the Legion—don’t miss it!

Overview

Case Aiken introduces crossover episode, featuring Jmike Folson, Jim Fetters, Jay McKiernan, and Chris Batista discussing the Legion of Superheroes 'Foundations' arc, celebrating its 45th anniversary. The plot centers on Darkseid snatching people from time to harness dark matter, with the Legion uncovering Superboy during the investigation. DNA (Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning) established as the core writing team; their earlier success with Marvel's cosmic stories enhances credibility. Chris Batista expresses concern over technology portrayal, advocating for a more advanced depiction of the Legion compared to Justice League. The Legion World headquarters is praised for its futuristic elements like replicated home worlds and teleportation gates. Despite rising sales and positive fan response, the series faced cancellation, causing frustration as issue 25 became the second-best selling of the series with a 25% readership increase. Character designs for the Servants of Darkness were mostly created by Chris Batista, with a conscious effort to maintain Kirby's aesthetic. Superboy's dual role as both Legion member and connection to Titans was anticipated, reflecting long-time fan expectations for character involvement. Kid Quantum is recognized as the first female leader of color in the Legion, showcasing character dynamics and development alongside Cosmic Boy. The evolution of Superboy's design aimed to match Teen Titans appearances, highlighting editorial influence on character aesthetics.

 

Notes

️ Podcast Introduction and Setup (00:00 - 02:09)

• Case Aiken introduces the Men of Steel podcast crossover episode with Long Live the Legion podcast, featuring co-host Jmike Folson and guests Jim Fetters, Jay McKiernan, and artist Chris Batista.

• Discussion focuses on Legion of Superheroes 'Foundations' arc, specifically issue 25 which serves as both story continuation and 45th anniversary celebration.

• Chris Batista reveals behind-the-scenes details about working as lead artist on the arc, noting DC doesn't produce this Legion continuity anymore so he can speak freely.

Story Overview and Context (02:09 - 09:54)

• Jmike Folson summarizes the Foundations plot: people being snatched from time by Darkseid to steal dark matter for restarting Apokolips, with Legion discovering Superboy during investigation of warp phantoms.

• DNA (Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning) established as the writing team, with connections drawn to their later successful Marvel cosmic work including Guardians of the Galaxy.

• Legion Lost miniseries and Legion Worlds established crucial backstory, with 25 issues of world-building leading to this commemorative arc.

️ Technology and World-Building Discussion (09:54 - 16:05)

• Chris Batista expresses frustration with Paul Levitz rejecting advanced technology concepts for Legion, arguing they should appear far more advanced than Justice League.

• Legion World headquarters praised as major advancement - a planet with replicated home worlds and teleportation gates, making Legion feel appropriately futuristic.

• Discussion of how DNA run embraced technological advancement while previous runs kept Legion at similar tech level to 20th century heroes.

Character Design and Development (01:01:03 - 01:24:10)

• Chris reveals Servants of Darkness designs were largely his creation except for Orion, with specific mentions of including Firestorm, White Martian, Lobo, Green Lantern, and Big Barda.

• Orion design intentionally modeled after Destroyer from Thor, maintaining Kirby aesthetic while creating intimidating servant appearance.

• Invisible Kid and Brainiac 5 romantic moment revealed as editor Steve Wacker's spontaneous addition 'just to mess with fans' - became lasting fan discussion point.

Publishing History and Cancellation (01:24:16 - 01:59:06)

• Series cancellation explained as sudden higher-up decision despite rising sales and positive fan response to Superboy addition.

• Issue 25 was second-best selling of entire series with 25% increase in readership, making cancellation timing particularly frustrating.

• Original plans included Superboy remaining in both Legion and Titans simultaneously, with extensive story arcs planned for Element Lad return and Lightning Lad separation.

Artist Collaboration and Creative Process (20:40 - 01:19:06)

• Chris describes working relationship with DNA as collaborative, with writers trusting him to design new characters like Legion cadets and including Easter eggs like Kent Shakespeare and Polar Boy.

• Multiple pencillers used for issue 25 to handle commemorative scope, with each artist assigned specific character groups to avoid overlap.

• Coloring technology evolution discussed, with modern computer coloring providing more tools but potentially reducing creative necessity of older 64-color process limitations.

• ⏳ Superman Connection and Time Travel Elements (34:02 - 01:54:06)

• Clark Kent and 90s Superboy both featured as characters pulled from time, with Clark becoming servant of darkness while Superboy joins Legion.

• Superboy wears classic costume with Legion belt buckle addition, fulfilling long-time fan expectations while serving story purposes.

• Time dilation plot involves universe getting smaller and past being erased, though hosts acknowledge the temporal mechanics don't fully make sense.

Character Relationships and Dynamics (46:03 - 01:30:24)

• Mech (Lightning Lord) rehabilitation storyline discussed as more complex than typical villain treatment, showing struggle between evil nature and love for siblings.

• Kid Quantum established as Legion's first female leader of color, with organic romantic relationship with Cosmic Boy developing throughout arc.

• Livewire/Element Lad fusion creates extremely powerful character combining lightning abilities with matter transmutation in crystalline body.

Technical and Production Details (01:36:23 - 01:51:38)

• Secret Files issue placement in continuity questioned due to timeline inconsistencies with main story events.

• Chris notes Superboy's physical design evolution throughout arc as editorial mandated size increases to match Teen Titans appearance.

• Force field technology and advanced Legion equipment discussed as properly futuristic elements that should distinguish team from contemporary heroes.

This week on Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by writer and critic Jesse Fresco to dig into the early 2000s series Cla$$War. We unpack the political fury, superhero deconstruction, and lasting relevance of this overlooked gem from the Bush-era boom in gritty, socially charged comics. #MenOfSteelPod #Cla$$War #RobWilliams #SupermanAdjacent #JesseFresco #ComicsPodcast   Support us on Patreon! patreon.com/CertainPOVMedia   Men of Steel Full Episode Originally aired: August 15, 2025 Edited by Sophia Ricciardi Scored by Geoff Moonen   Certain Point Of View is a podcast network brining you all sorts of nerdy goodness! From Star Wars role playing, to Disney day dreaming, to video game love, we've got the show for you!   Learn more on our website: https://www.certainpov.com Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/wcHHer4   Overview

• Class War comic serves as a political commentary on post-9/11 America, initially conceived as a 12-issue series but only 6 issues were published between 2002 and 2004.
• Writer Rob Williams influenced by Bill Hicks and Marvel's Miracle Man, blending humor with serious themes of government superhero programs.
• Characters feature a Superman-like hero and an Enola Gay team reflecting various archetypes, but backstory is minimal focusing more on action.
• The commentary emphasizes American superheroes as 'deterrents' entangled in corruption and drug operations rather than showcasing true class conflict.
• Artwork utilized innovative computer coloring for the early 2000s, with notable scenes praised for their intensity and execution.
• The series is linked to broader cultural events, including the Patriot Act and militarized entertainment, creating a lasting impact on the genre.
• Story arcs reveal escalating tensions, ending ambiguously without showing direct conflict or resolution in the finale.
• Hosts reflect on the comic's themes feeling 'adolescent' today, yet resonate with current events like rising political tensions and violence.
• Class War recommended alongside classics like The Authority and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, highlighted for its unfinished nature and mystique.
• The discussion underscores a shift in superhero portrayals, questioning the effectiveness of traditional heroes in the current socio-political landscape.

 

Notes ️ Introduction and Setup (00:00 - 09:36)

• Discussion of Class War comic as political commentary on post-9/11 America, described as 'what if Superman was pissed off about 9/11'.
• Jesse Fresco returns after Jaguar Sharks podcast ended in January, currently working on a novel after crossing 200 pages.
• Class War intended as 12-issue series but only 6 issues published - first 3 in 2002, final 3 in 2004 by Com X publisher.
• Notable art style change between Trevor Harrison (issues 1-3) and Travel Foreman (issues 4-6), both considered high quality for indie publication.

Historical Context and Influences (09:36 - 18:49)

• Comic written before 9/11 but published after, coincidentally capturing post-9/11 American sentiment perfectly.
• Received major attention from Wizard magazine and early comic websites despite being small indie publication.
• Writer Rob Williams heavily influenced by comedian Bill Hicks, directly copying Kennedy assassination joke in comic.
• Williams cited Marvel Man/Miracle Man as major influence, both featuring government superhero programs with Nazi scientist connections.

‍️ Character Analysis and Comic Structure (18:49 - 27:56)

• Superman-type character design with mostly white bodysuit, blue stripe, and star pattern - described as 'patriotic Apollo'.
• Minimal backstory provided beyond brief flashback showing protagonist's brother died of heroin overdose.
• Enola Gay superhero team includes The American, Heavyweight (Luke Cage-type), Icon (Wonder Woman analog), and Confusion (psychic character).

️ Political Commentary and Themes (27:56 - 38:02)

• Reveals American superheroes used as 'deterrents' rather than weapons, involved in drug trafficking operations.
• Despite title 'Class War,' actual class conflict rarely shown - more focused on government corruption than economic inequality.
• Problematic portrayal of Black character written by British creators, described as 'Mike Tyson as super soldier'.

Art and Production Quality (38:02 - 48:12)

• Utilized cutting-edge computer coloring and gradients that were revolutionary for early 2000s comics.
• Heavyweight vs American battle particularly praised, featuring brutal jaw-punching scene later parodied by Garth Ennis.
• Com X publisher folded after initial run, Image Comics later acquired reprint rights.

Cultural Impact and Comparisons (48:12 - 58:18)

• Frequently compared to Warren Ellis's Authority series despite Williams claiming unfamiliarity.
• Influenced Garth Ennis's The Boys, Warren Ellis's Black Summer, and Mark Millar's War Heroes.
• Part of broader cultural shift including 'freedom fries,' Patriot Act, and militarized entertainment.

Story Structure Analysis (58:19 - 01:08:43)

• Issue 1 - Superman burns 'LIAR' into President's forehead; Issue 2 - Heavyweight fight; Issue 3 - Bridge episode; Issues 4-6 - Government conspiracy revelation.
• Series ends with American and Isaac preparing for civil war, never showing actual conflict or resolution.
• Heavyweight confirmed killed by shield weapon, Jefferson transforms into monster.

️ Modern Relevance Discussion (01:08:44 - 01:18:51)

• Comic feels 'adolescent' and 'naive' when read today, but captured appropriate anger for its time.
• Hosts discuss how recent events (CEO shooting, political tensions) make comic's themes more relevant.
• Question whether Superman-type heroes work in current political climate versus Punisher-style vigilantes.

Conclusion and Recommendations (01:18:52 - 01:25:43)

• Recommended alongside The Authority, Garth Ennis's 303, and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies.
• Better remembered as unfinished work with mystique than potentially disappointing completion.
• Plugs for CPOV Media Patreon, Movie Struck podcast, and Discord community.

On this heartfelt installment of Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez (One Track Mind, Reels of Justice) to discuss the powerful documentary Super/Man: The Christopher Reeve Story. We reflect on Reeve’s legacy as both a performer and a real-life hero, unpack the emotional depth of the film, and celebrate the enduring impact of the Man of Steel.

#ChristopherReeve #Superman #SuperManDocumentary #MenOfSteelPod #ReelsOfJustice #OneTrackMind

Find Ryan at: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/one-track-mind-with-ryan-luis-rodriguez/id1431611476 and https://www.patreon.com/onetrackmindpodcast

Overview

• Episode 150 of the Men of Steel podcast celebrates hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson's significant milestone, with guest Ryan Luis Rodriguez joining in the discussion.
• Ryan Luis Rodriguez boasts a 4-0 record on the Reels of Justice podcast, with an upcoming Frozen 2 prosecution case highlighting his expertise.
• The hosts shared personal memories of the impact of Christopher Reeve's 1995 horseback riding accident, shaping their childhood experiences at ages 9 and 11.
• A well-edited documentary chronicling Reeve's life compiles 40 years of footage, avoiding melodrama while effectively communicating emotional depth.
• Christopher Reeve's casting as Superman faced doubts; his physical presence and several life factors contributed to his iconic portrayal of the character.
• The documentary discusses the deep emotional bond between Reeve and Robin Williams, revealing their supportive friendship nurtured during their Juilliard days.
• Following Reeve's accident, Dana Reeve emerged as a dedicated caregiver, transforming their tragedy into advocacy for disability rights and research funding.
• The podcast notes Reeve's advocacy for stem cell research and his collaboration with John Kerry, which marked him as a significant political figure in this area.
• Reeve's legacy is sustained through the Christopher Reeve Foundation, which continues to advance research funding for spinal injury treatment.
• New Patreon initiatives were introduced, with gratitude extended to executive producers supporting the Men of Steel podcast and connected shows.

 

Notes ️ Episode Introduction & Guest Background (00:00 - 04:36)

• Episode 150 milestone celebration of Men of Steel podcast, marking significant achievement for hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson
• Ryan Luis Rodriguez joins as guest, known from Reels of Justice podcast where he serves as prosecutor/defender in fake movie court format
• Ryan's current 4-0 record on Reels of Justice, with upcoming Frozen 2 prosecution case
• Ryan also hosts One Track Mind podcast focusing on film through audio commentaries, featuring Case as previous guest

‍️ Personal Memories of Christopher Reeve's Accident (06:01 - 08:33)

• 1995 horseback riding accident deeply impacted all hosts as children - Case was 11, Jmike was 9, Ryan was 9 years old
• Case recalls watching news coverage at grandparents' house, vivid memories of the media coverage
• Jmike remembers his mother explaining 'Superman is paralyzed' while he was watching Superman animated series
• Ryan's emotional reaction as 'very feeling autistic child' to learning Superman would never walk again

Documentary Structure & Production Quality (31:52 - 37:15)

• 40 years of footage compiled into remarkably well-edited documentary that feels like 55 minutes despite being 1 hour 40 minutes
• Stone Christopher Reeve statue used as visual metaphor throughout, starting pristine then showing cracks from kryptonite after accident
• No narrator approach - uses interviews with children and friends to weave story together organically
• Documentary avoids being 'tragedy porn' while still being emotionally impactful

Christopher Reeve's Early Life & Career (12:35 - 48:44)

• Difficult relationship with father Arthur, described as 'douchebag' socialite poet who disapproved of Superman role
• Juilliard training alongside Robin Williams as roommates, establishing lifelong friendship
• Superman casting process involved auditioning 'everybody including the casting director's dentist' - Reeve wasn't obvious choice
• Arrogance during Superman production - some friction with cast/crew, though sources questioned

Superman Performance & Legacy (44:37 - 50:09)

• Transformational acting in famous scene where Clark almost reveals identity to Lois - complete physical and vocal transformation
• Instinctive banking during first flying scene showed natural acting choices that made role work
• Height and physical presence key factors, though not initially seen as obvious Superman type

️ Personal Relationships & Family (19:26 - 25:47)

• First relationship with Gae Exton, mother of his first two children, ended after Superman IV failure
• Walking away from family after Superman IV disappointment, described as blindsiding them
• Dana Reeve entered life after separation, not as 'homewrecker' but as supportive partner
• Strong relationships with theater community including Susan Sarandon, Whoopi Goldberg, Jeff Daniels

The Accident & Immediate Aftermath (09:56 - 38:42)

• May 1995 horseback riding accident during equestrian competition, paralyzed from neck down
• Life-threatening complications including potential suffocation from tubes, intense anxiety in early days
• Mental health struggles openly discussed, showing fears and adaptation process through rehabilitation

‍️ Dana Reeve's Role & Sacrifice (25:47 - 27:16)

• Incredible caretaker burden - being sole caregiver to paralyzed person described as 'herculean task'
• Transformative advocacy work - turned tragedy into hope for disabled community, advanced research funding
• Death from lung cancer at age 44 despite never smoking, tragically dying shortly after Christopher
• Will Reeves orphaned - lost both parents, overheard phone call about mother's death while pretending to sleep

Advocacy & Political Impact (25:47 - 40:15)

• 1996 Oscar appearance - standing ovation moment showing his continued cultural influence
• Stem cell research advocacy - became major political figure, worked with John Kerry on legislation
• Christopher Reeve Foundation continues work through his children, funding research that has helped people walk again
• Federal funding advancement for spinal injury research and surgical procedures

Robin Williams Connection (16:47 - 16:47)

• Juilliard roommates and lifelong close friends, surprising depth of relationship revealed
• Emotional documentary moment - suggestion that 'if Chris was still alive, Robin would be too'
• Mutual support system throughout both their careers and challenges

Superman Film Legacy (22:16 - 47:26)

• Superman IV personal project - Reeve wrote the story, making its failure particularly devastating
• Anti-nuclear message in Superman IV, though film was commercial failure
• Production challenges of original Superman films, including Salkinds' questionable business practices
• Salkind Clause in actor contracts resulted from producers splitting one movie into two without additional pay

Podcast Network Updates (55:58 - 57:26)

• Patreon launch at patreon.com/certainpovmedia covering Another Pass and Men of Steel productions
• Executive producers thanked: Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, Adam Samtur, Keith Lehtinen
• New network shows: Long Live the Legion (Legion of Superheroes podcast) and We Have Issues (Keith Lehtinen's show)

There’s a new Superman movie out so OBVIOUSLY we’re covering it! It’s a big enough deal that we even got CPOV Founder Addy Thomas to come out of podcast retirement and join us for the main discussion! On top of that we solicited feedback from our listeners and, boy, did they deliver! 

Tune in for our thoughts and the thoughts of:

Alex Ramsey

Ben Haslar

Derek Van Dyke

Ed Gross

JD Martin

Jesse Fresco

Jim Fetters

Keith Lehtinen

Lee Greger

Logan Crowley

Matt aka Stormageddon

Michael Stumbo

Nic Woolfe

Richard Snyder

Ryan Luis Rodriguez

 

On this episode of Men of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by nerd about town Adam Lance Garcia to dive into one of the perenial crossovers of the '70s: Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man! We talk tabloid-sized team-ups, Bronze Age bravado, and what happens when DC and Marvel let their icons share a skyline. Who wins? … I mean… It’s Superman. It’s obviously Superman. But that said, it’s a blast of a conversation, so tune in, True Believers!

Check out Adam's Stuff:

The Green Lama: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-green-lama/id1593061792 From A Certain Point of View: https://a.co/d/fiY396f   Overview

• Adam Lance Garcia, an established Star Wars author, shares his early fandom of Superman sparked by the 1976 Christopher Reeve film and its lasting influence on his work.
• The 1976 Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man marks the first DC/Marvel superhero crossover with a creative team that includes Gerry Conway and Stan Lee, highlighting its historical significance in comic book history.
• The story features a 92-page length with 36 pages dedicated to prologues to set character dynamics effectively, a considerable feat for comics at that time.
• Character interactions are facilitated by a news convention setting, notably altering the traditional roles of Superman as he works as a TV anchor at GBS.
• Lex Luthor emerges as the primary villain, while Doc Ock's role remains secondary, demonstrating the power dynamics within the narrative.
• Unique plot devices, such as a red sun ray that allows Spider-Man to challenge Superman, illustrate creative solutions for character conflicts.
• The discussion reveals dated elements in the narrative, particularly an Africa sequence deemed problematic, albeit 'well-intentioned' for its time.
• Comparisons to superior crossovers like JLA/Avengers emphasize shortcomings in Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man, particularly regarding character integration and narrative depth.
• Iconic moments in the comic, including Spider-Man’s ineffective punches and Peter Parker saving Lois Lane, highlight successful character interactions that resonate with fans.

Notes ️ Podcast Introduction & Guest Background (00:00 - 03:10)

• Case Aiken and Jmike Folson host Men of Steel podcast discussing Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man
• Adam Lance Garcia joins as guest, established Star Wars author with extensive comic book background
• Superman was Garcia's first fandom, introduced through 1976 Christopher Reeve film, called it 'Super S' as child

Comic Book Historical Context (04:31 - 53:25)

• Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man (1976) - first DC/Marvel superhero crossover, technically second collaboration after Wizard of Oz project
• Creative team: Gerry Conway (writer), Ross Andrew (artist), Dick Giordano (inker), Carmine Infantino and Stan Lee (editors)
• Neal Adams uncredited for redrawing Superman panels, John Romita Sr. redrew Marvel character faces for house style consistency
• 92-page story with 36 pages of prologues - significant length for 1976 comic

Story Structure Analysis (11:49 - 24:04)

• Three prologues establish characters: Superman vs. giant robot, Spider-Man vs. Doc Ock, villains team up in prison
• Main story set at news convention in New York, allows natural meeting of characters
• Superman working as TV anchor at GBS (not Daily Planet reporter) creates awkward dynamic for classic Superman storytelling

️ Character Dynamics & Plot Elements (47:12 - 01:44:08)

• Lex Luthor dominates as alpha villain, Dr. Octopus relegated to secondary role throughout story
• Red sun ray device allows Spider-Man to physically fight Superman by weakening him
• Plot contrivances include fake Superman kidnapping Lois Lane and Mary Jane to force hero conflict

️ Problematic Elements Discussion (01:49:59 - 01:30:03)

• Africa sequence identified as dated and problematic, though noted as 'well-intentioned' for its era
• Ms./Miss distinction scene between Mary Jane and Lois Lane reflects 1970s women's liberation discourse
• Various plot holes and inconsistencies discussed, including gravity fight scene logic

Crossover Comparisons (01:05:02 - 01:20:54)

• JLA/Avengers by Busiek and Perez cited as superior crossover example with lasting consequences
• Superman/Hulk crossover praised for using iconic character versions rather than current continuity
• Batman/Captain America crossover noted for better integration of characters' respective worlds

Positive Aspects Highlighted (01:06:14 - 01:19:30)

• Iconic moments: Spider-Man punching ineffectively at Superman, two-page spread of first encounter
• Peter Parker saving Lois Lane scene appreciated as natural universe mixing
• J. Jonah Jameson and Morgan Edge drinking scene shows potential for character interactions

Historical Significance (53:53 - 01:38:37)

• Comic serves as important archaeological artifact showing evolution of crossover storytelling
• Earth Dollar Sign - joking designation for shared universe setting
• Foundation for future DC/Marvel collaborations despite narrative shortcomings

Supergirl crashes to Earth, and we’re ready to talk fashion, fights, and Fourth World politics. Joined by Alex and Amanda from Night of the Batman, we revisit the iconic Superman/Batman arc “The Supergirl From Krypton” and its animated adaptation “Superman/Batman: Apocalypse”, but which version flies higher?

Check out Alex and Amanda’s stuff: SSYSK LINK: https://www.youtube.com/@SuperheroSYSK

FLASHBACKS FLASH REWATCH POD: youtube.com/@flashbacksflashrewatchpod?si=y_c_SHnI9bKwu-Qz

NIGHT OF THE BATMEN: open.spotify.com/show/1od04JzRbU9OrePOyVbeOx?si=qRzXtTAcSjWholUYhjLRpw

OUR CROSSOVER WITH MEN OF STEEL: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/night-of-the-batmen-podcast/id1663635355?i=1000674213822

REVIEWMORE GIRLS GILMORE GIRLS REWATCH POD: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zhmdEqCNHiBqptKLpMuD8?si=qdTx5-D4QNa6T0NGs5fKRw

TANGENTIAL EXCHANGE POD: https://youtube.com/@thetangentialexchange6469?si=w2V6sZ2meB6ANLqQ

  Overview

• Case criticized the decompressed storytelling in the comic, contrasting it with the more engaging 'Many Happy Returns' Supergirl story from 2022.
• Discussion highlighted Michael Turner's art style, emphasizing the influence of early 2000s teenage fashion depicted in character designs.
• Hosts noted that the first issue could have been condensed significantly, criticizing its pacing and structure.
• Superman's omitted kryptonite quarantine subplot from the movie adaptation raised concerns about character depth.
• Tim Daly and Kevin Conroy received praise for reprising their iconic roles, while mixed reviews were given to Ed Asner and Andre Brauer's performances.
• A debate on Wonder Woman's training methods questioned the conflict resolution techniques used within the storyline.
• Criticism arose over the implausibility of Batman defeating a Doomsday clone in the action sequences, situating him against a powerful foe.
• The significance of Superman’s kryptonite ring was analyzed, noting its implications on comic book continuity.
• The final Darkseid battle was deemed as unnecessary padding, detracting from the story's overall quality.
• Overall assessment categorized the comic as "mid" quality, recommending it over the movie for improved pacing and dialogue.

 

Notes ️ Opening & Introduction (00:00 - 11:18)

• Podcast introduction and guest welcome from Night of the Batman podcast
• Discussion of second major Superman Batman story arc following their previous crossover episode on Public Enemies
• Case's initial criticism of the comic's decompressed storytelling, comparing it unfavorably to the earlier 'Many Happy Returns' Supergirl story that came out 1.5 years prior
• Analysis of Jeph Loeb's writing style and tendency to retell existing stories, with comparison to Long Halloween vs. Eye of the Beholder

Art Style & Character Design Discussion (06:02 - 22:24)

• Michael Turner's artwork analysis, particularly his portrayal of Supergirl and the male gaze perspective in character design
• Debate over teenage fashion authenticity in early 2000s, with specific mention of Degrassi character Manny's influence on style choices
• Case's personal reflection on aging out of the target demographic at 22-23 years old when the comic was released
• Discussion of Batman's visual design and 'toyetic' appeal of his various gear throughout the story

Story Structure & Pacing Analysis (15:32 - 33:23)

• Critique of first issue's extreme decompression - could have been condensed to 5 pages according to hosts
• Analysis of Superman's quarantine subplot from kryptonite exposure, which was omitted from the movie adaptation
• Discussion of Batman's characterization and his collection of various colored kryptonite
• Comparison of Supergirl's introduction sequence between comic and movie versions

Character Development & Voice Acting (33:23 - 44:32)

• Praise for Tim Daly and Kevin Conroy reprising their animated series roles in the movie
• Mixed reactions to Ed Asner as Granny Goodness and criticism of Andre Brauer's rushed Darkseid performance
• Analysis of Krypto's characterization as more aggressive than traditional versions
• Discussion of Superman's uncharacteristically irrational behavior throughout the story

️ Plot Development & Action Sequences (44:32 - 01:06:47)

• Wonder Woman and Amazons' training approach debate, including the problematic conflict resolution method
• Analysis of the Doomsday army sequence and its implausibility - criticism of Batman defeating a Doomsday clone
• Discussion of Big Barda's introduction and her height representation differences between comic and movie
• Trinity argument analysis, particularly Superman's inappropriate Jason Todd/Donna Troy comment

Apocalypse Arc & Final Battle (01:06:48 - 01:18:02)

• Female Furies fight sequence comparison between mediums
• Batman's confrontation with Darkseid using hellspore threat as leverage
• Analysis of Superman's kryptonite ring usage and its comic book continuity
• Critique of final Darkseid battle as unnecessary padding for story length
• Discussion of ending differences between comic (heroic sacrifice) vs. movie (extended fight)

Final Analysis & Recommendations (01:18:02 - 01:24:29)

• Overall assessment: story is 'mid' quality, overly decompressed for the content
• Recommendation to read comic over watching movie due to better pacing and dialogue
• Acknowledgment that 4 issues would have been optimal length instead of 6
• Recognition of story's influence on modern Supergirl characterization going forward

Marvel's The Incredible Hulk wanders around the desert and then stumbles into the middle of a barbecue and that interferes with Superman getting a milkshake. Hilarity ensues. But in all seriousness, this is a great comic! Join us for our discussion about it with Logan Crowley!

Men of Steel Full Episode

Originally aired: June 6, 2025

Edited by Sophia Ricciardi

Scored by Geoff Moonen

Overview In this episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike welcome back guest Logan Crowley to delve into the thrilling crossover comic "The Incredible Hulk vs. Superman" from the DC vs. Marvel omnibus. They explore the art, storytelling techniques, and character dynamics within this blended comic universe, noting the pivotal roles of Hulk and Superman, and their contrasting origins. The narrative unfolds with Superman investigating seismic disturbances caused by the rampaging Hulk, leading to their first explosive encounter at a barbecue, and further complications arise with Lex Luthor's scheming. As the plot escalates, viewers witness an emotional crescendo culminating in a heart-wrenching conclusion. The hosts highlight the depth of the story and its portrayal of classic characters, while also inviting listeners to engage in their Patreon, follow Crowley's upcoming podcast "Single Bound," and join the community on Discord.

 

Notes ️ Podcast Introduction (00:00 - 10:26)

• Case Aiken announces the launch of Patreon for Certain POV Media
• Patreon location: patreon.com/certainpovmedia
• Executive producer acknowledgments: Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, and Adam Samtur (and Keith Lehtinen)
• Case and Jmike welcome returning guest Logan Crowley
• The episode focuses on 'The Incredible Hulk versus Superman' from the DC vs Marvel omnibus
• The hosts establish this crossover as a masterpiece that perfectly blends both comic universes

️ Comic Analysis: Structure & Setting (10:26 - 20:19)

• The story uses a blended universe with a framing device set in present day and flashback to the past
• Steve Rude's art praised for perfectly capturing both Jack Kirby and Joe Shuster styles
• The comic includes numerous Easter eggs (like 'Otisburg' reference)
• Story plugs a continuity hole in Hulk's history regarding his transformation method
• Timeline placement: for Hulk, after Metal Master story in Tales to Astonish; for Superman, between issues 4-5 of Man of Steel
• The omnibus includes extra material with notes and original art sketches

Character Dynamics & Story Setup (20:20 - 30:00)

• Discussion of Hulk's varying intelligence levels throughout comic history
• Rick Jones identified as a crucial character in Hulk stories
• Story begins with a documentary on Hulk that Superman and Lois watch
• The narrative compares Superman and Hulk's origins (rockets and explosions)
• Flashback story begins with Hulk hiding in a cave and spontaneously transforming
• Superman described as being in his early years as a hero during this story

️ Plot Progression: First Half (30:01 - 39:33)

• Hulk goes on a rampage while Clark Kent interviews a seismologist
• Superman investigates unusual seismic activity caused by Hulk
• Their first meeting occurs at a barbecue Hulk interrupts
• Superman is battered by Hulk and thrown into space
• General Ross appears with corporate VIP Lex Luthor (with hair, Boss Hogg outfit)
• Lois Lane tracks down Rick Jones to get information about the Hulk

Character Interactions (39:33 - 49:43)

• Rick Jones refuses to talk to Lois about the Hulk, showing his loyalty
• Superman meets Lois outside a drive-in, establishing the classic love triangle dynamic
• Banner and Kent meet without realizing each other's secret identities
• Lex Luthor flirts with Betty Ross while watching Hulk footage
• Lois wants to warn Betty about Luthor's questionable character
• Betty and Lois bond over having general fathers

Conflict Escalation (49:43 - 59:15)

• Luthor creates a fake Hulk robot to frame the real Hulk
• Betty Ross appears to be kidnapped by 'Hulk'
• Bruce Banner transforms into Hulk to save Betty
• Superman arrives, sees Hulk standing over Betty, misinterprets the situation
• Epic fight sequence begins with Superman throwing Hulk into a cactus ravine
• Military fires on both heroes during their battle
• Luthor attempts to gain access to the gamma gun

Resolution & Reflection (59:16 - 01:12:24)

• Superman and Hulk team up to destroy the dangerous gamma gun
• Fastball special scene: Superman throws Hulk at the gamma gun
• Luthor escapes consequences due to his wealth and status
• The story ends with a sad conclusion in the present day
• Betty Ross dies of radiation poisoning; Banner returns to his lonely existence
• Superman reflects on his missed opportunity to help Banner
• The hosts praise the emotional depth of the story and its perfect capture of both characters
• Logan shares information about his upcoming podcast 'Single Bound'
• The hosts provide links to their social media and recommend other podcasts

Action items Unassigned

• Listeners should check out the Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia for more content (01:00)
• Interested listeners should consider supporting Peter David's GoFundMe
• Listeners should follow Logan Crowley on Instagram at Token Hillbilly (01:08:02)
• Listeners can contact Logan about his new podcast at [email protected] (01:08:30)
• Listeners can join the Discord server through links at certainpov.com (01:10:00)
• Listeners should check out the 'Books that Burn' podcast recommended by Case (01:11:05)

 

Marvel's Most Wanted are here to deliver some Justice like Lightning! Case and Jmike reflect on the latest MCU entry, Thunderbolts*, with friend of the show, Joe Mastropiero.

Overview

In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, along with guest Joe Mastropiero, delve into Marvel's Thunderbolts movie, connecting its themes to the recently released Superman trailer. They discuss the film's characters, including Yelena, Bucky, and the controversial Sentry, addressing how the characters' darker backstories lend themselves to a redemption arc that deviates from their comic origins. The hosts explore the movie's structure, its exploration of trauma through the lens of the Void character, and the significance of the Superman archetype in modern storytelling, highlighting a potential cultural shift towards more hopeful narratives. The episode concludes with updates about the podcast, including upcoming episodes and ways for listeners to engage through Discord and Patreon, while emphasizing the importance of community interaction in discussing these themes.

Notes

Introduction and Superman Trailer Discussion (00:00 - 15:45)

• Hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome guest Joe Mastropiero to discuss Marvel's Thunderbolts movie

• The hosts explained the Superman connection to Thunderbolts: the Sentry character is a Superman analog

• The group discussed the recently released Superman trailer featuring David Corenswet

• Logan Crowley provided audio commentary praising the trailer's rural American portrayal of the Kents

• The trailer shows Lois Lane interviewing Clark Kent and Superman's moral conflict with authority figures

• Group discussed potential Justice Society appearance and Nicholas Hoult as Lex Luthor

Thunderbolts Team History and Setup (15:46 - 29:34)

• Original Thunderbolts comic (1996) featured villains disguised as heroes after mainstream heroes disappeared

• The comic team was led by Baron Zemo with members including Moonstone, Atlas, Mach 1, and Songbird

• The team evolved over time from redemption-seeking villains to government ops team (similar to Suicide Squad)

• The movie roster differs significantly from comic versions, causing initial fan confusion

• The Sentry character is a controversial Superman analog with bipolar disorder and a dark alter ego called 'The Void'

• The Sentry has extreme power levels that create storytelling challenges in the Marvel universe

Movie Characters Review: Part 1 (29:35 - 49:41)

• Yelena (Florence Pugh): Burned-out assassin who serves as the audience viewpoint character

• Bucky (Sebastian Stan): Former Winter Soldier, moved away from his congressman storyline

• Red Guardian (David Harbour): Soviet super-soldier who brings enthusiasm and comic relief

• Ghost (Hannah John-Kamen): Character with phasing abilities who had plot elements removed

• Taskmaster: Briefly appears in the film but is killed early to establish stakes

• All characters are government-created weapons now without masters, seeking purpose

Movie Characters Review: Part 2 (49:42 - 01:00:08)

• US Agent (Wyatt Russell): Portrayed as a physically powerful but unlikeable douchebag

• Val (Julia Louis-Dreyfus): Manipulative politician/spymaster who brings the team together

• Mel: Character who unexpectedly survives despite seeming setup for death

• Bob/Sentry (Lewis Pullman): Mild-mannered man who transforms into the golden-costumed Sentry

• The Void manifestation was effectively portrayed through shadow effects and 'Hiroshima-style shadows'

• The film effectively handles Sentry's extreme power levels by keeping him sidelined for most of the story

️ Movie Structure and Themes (01:00:10 - 01:10:23)

• Film has strong setup and payoff elements with well-structured action sequences

• Team is brought together when 'they are the evidence' that needs to be eliminated

• The movie differs from expectations of being a Suicide Squad-type government contract story

• The Void serves as vehicle for showing characters' trauma and psychological issues

• Despite differences from comics, film maintains core theme of redemption for characters with dark pasts

• Characters take on 'New Avengers' name by the end, connecting to comic history

Superman Archetype Discussion (01:10:26 - 01:21:42)

• Discussion about why both dark and hopeful Superman archetypes resonate with audiences

• Joe highlighted importance of Superman's moral compass coming from supportive family/community

• Dark Superman versions explore 'what if' scenarios without those support structures

• The group noted a possible cultural shift toward desiring more hopeful superhero stories after a period of darker interpretations

• Century briefly shows Superman-like qualities before reverting to darker nature

• Film effectively portrays the burden of power on someone with mental health issues

Show Updates and Promotion (01:21:43 - 01:27:49)

• Case announced upcoming Men of Steel episodes (#146-150) including Hulk vs Superman and Supergirl from Krypton

• The hosts promoted their Discord community as the best way for listeners to interact with them

• Men of Steel now has a Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia with various support tiers

• Case thanked their first ten executive producer-level supporters by name

• Carter Hallett

• Sean Muir

• Lee Greger

• Memento Young

• Logan Crowley

• Joe Mastropiero

• Casey Aiken

• Nancy Aiken

• Adam Samtur

• Keith Lehtinen

• Case mentioned writing essays for Patreon subscribers (even at free tier)

• Final promotion for 'We Have Issues' podcast reviewing weekly comic releases

Action items

Listeners

• Join the Men of Steel Discord to interact with hosts and discuss the Superman trailer and Thunderbolts (01:21:42)

• Check out and possibly support the show's new Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia (01:23:07)

Case Aiken

• Schedule essay releases more consistently on Patreon going forward (01:25:57)

• Complete and release the Naomi episode that was previously mentioned

Case and Jmike are joined by Logan Crowley to discuss one of the few times where Superman is the underdog in the story, when he crossed over with the Silver Surfer!   Overview In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome guest Logan Crowley to discuss the recently published DC versus Marvel omnibus, centering on the 90s crossover story featuring Silver Surfer and Superman. The hosts delve into character power dynamics, plot setups, and the comic's creative team while highlighting their appreciation for artists like Ron Lim and writers like George Perez. As the discussion unfolds, they explore the narrative twists involving characters like the Impossible Man and Mr. Mxyzptlk, engaging in debates about iconic character matchups and the significance of their unique abilities. The episode concludes with reflections on the crossover's implications, Logan's upcoming podcast launch, and an invitation for listeners to engage with their online community.

 

Notes Introduction and DC vs Marvel Omnibus (00:00 - 09:43)

• Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome Discord community member Logan Crowley as guest
• Discussion focuses on recently published DC versus Marvel omnibus
• The group plans to discuss Silver Surfer Superman crossover from the 90s
• Logan mentions it feels surreal to be on the podcast as a fan
• Ron Lim highlighted as perfect artist for Silver Surfer comics
• George Perez noted as writer for this issue (though the hosts prefer his art to his writing)
• Logan shares touching personal story about meeting George Perez at a convention

Comic Setting and Character Power Levels (09:43 - 19:59)

• The comic features 90s 'Triangle era' Superman (post-Crisis, post-death)
• Superman is at his weakest power level compared to extremely powerful Silver Surfer
• Creative team: George Perez (writer) and Ron Lim (artist)
• Comic establishes two separate realities (Marvel and DC as different multiverses)
• The Contessa appears instead of Lex Luthor (specific to this Superman era)
• Silver Surfer's immense power emphasized - 'strides light year after light year in mere seconds'
• Silver Surfer discovers mysterious, rapidly evolving planet that shouldn't exist

Plot Setup and Character Situations (19:59 - 29:44)

• Superman finds himself apparently on Krypton (with John Byrne-style mushroom dress designs)
• Silver Surfer crash lands in Metropolis and causes destruction with his powers
• Superman's powers begin to fade due to mental blocks related to the red sun
• Superman realizes he's not actually on Krypton and his powers return
• Introduction of Klert the Super Skrull as Superman's opponent (though it's a fake-out)
• Discussion of how the 90s-era Superman depiction differs from other versions

Surfer in the Fortress and Character Revelations (29:44 - 39:35)

• Silver Surfer enters what appears to be Superman's Fortress of Solitude
• The Fortress attacks Surfer, first formally then with humor
• Mix of Fortress of Solitude and Batcave elements (dinosaur robot, giant coin)
• Superman realizes he's not actually fighting the real Super Skrull
• Brief glimpse of 'spaghetti-headed aliens' reveals the deception
• Superman punches 'Super Skrull' while shouting 'Game over imp' - suspecting Mr. Mxyzptlk
• Silver Surfer discovers Metropolis is bottled like the city of Kandor
• 🃏 Villain Reveal and Confrontation (39:35 - 49:00)
• Reveal of Impossible Man as the trickster (Marvel's equivalent to Mr. Mxyzptlk)
• Discussion of the Impossible Man's character origin and powers (shapeshifter from a world with many threats)
• Hosts theorize about possible connection between Impossible Man and Mr. Mxyzptlk
• Possible timeline where they could be the same fifth-dimensional being at different points
• Discussion of various incarnations of Mr. Mxyzptlk across different DC comics
• Impossible Man reveals his 'prank' of pretending to be Mr. Mxyzptlk to Superman

Imp Battle and Universe Crossover (49:00 - 58:37)

• Skrull armada now attacking the planet (plot point feels unexplained)
• Mr. Mxyzptlk reveals he didn't follow the 'rules' Impossible Man thought they had
• The imps begin transforming sections of reality into Marvel vs DC character battles
• Notable matchups include Hulk vs Doomsday, Thing vs Lobo, Wolverine vs Wonder Woman
• These are the only official comic panels of some of these matchups
• The hosts discuss which matchups they'd most want to see in full comics
• Debate about whether Wolverine or Wonder Woman would win their fight

Conflict Resolution and Farewell (58:37 - 01:08:10)

• Superman and Silver Surfer end up in same room together, fulfilling Mxyzptlk's conditions
• Silver Surfer uses Power Cosmic to restore Metropolis to full size (beyond Superman's abilities)
• Metropolis citizens initially cheer Superman but want to 'kill the alien' (Silver Surfer)
• Superman promises to set the record straight about Surfer's help
• Surfer returns to the alien planet where he's seen as a hero despite his reputation
• Superman and Silver Surfer part ways, appreciating meeting someone of similar power levels
• Their memories of the encounter will fade (allowing for story to exist despite contradicting other crossovers)

️ Analysis and Show Wrap-up (01:08:10 - 01:19:28)

• Hosts note it's unusual that Superman and Silver Surfer never fight each other in the comic
• Superman doesn't have top billing in this crossover (or the Hulk crossover)
• Discussion of Ron Lim's excellent art, particularly the kinetic quality of action scenes
• Logan shares details about his upcoming podcast 'Single Bound' focusing on individual comic issues
• J. Mike and Case provide their social media information and other podcast recommendations
• The hosts promote their YouTube channel and Discord community

Case and Jmike are joined by Ed Gross to talk about his books on Superman!  

Voices From Krypton

Superman: The Definitive History

  Overview   In this engaging podcast interview, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike welcome Ed Gross, a prolific author known for his in-depth oral histories, particularly focusing on Superman. The conversation begins with an exploration of Ed’s background and his extensive work, including the recently released 'The Definitive History of Superman' and the ambitious 'Voices from Krypton,' which features insights from 250 interviews. Ed shares the intricate process behind creating oral histories, akin to piecing together a jigsaw puzzle, while delving into the complex history of Superman’s creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. The dialogue highlights Ed's personal connection to Superman and discusses the legacy of the character, as well as his experiences interviewing various actors who have portrayed Superman. The episode concludes with an announcement of a book giveaway to the listeners, further engaging the audience with Ed's work.

 

Notes   Introduction to Ed Gross and His Superman Projects (00:00 - 11:37)

• Case Aiken and Jmike welcome guest Ed Gross to discuss his Superman books.
• Ed wrote 'Voices from Krypton,' an oral history of Superman that includes interviews with Case.
• Ed recently completed 'The Definitive History of Superman.'
• Ed explains his background in oral histories, starting with Star Trek's 50th anniversary in 2015.
• Oral histories allow presentation of multiple perspectives, including conflicting views.
• Ed has written 14 books in 9 years, including oral histories of Star Trek, Star Wars, James Bond.
• 'Voices from Krypton' was a dream project that utilized 40 years of Ed's interviews.

Creating Oral Histories and Superman's Legacy (11:37 - 22:26)

• Ed explains his process for creating oral histories, comparing it to assembling a jigsaw puzzle.
• Interviews are structured to tell a coherent story while maintaining authentic voices.
• The book includes 250 interviews in total, creating a 333,000-word, 750-page tome.
• The Siegel and Shuster story was the most challenging section to research and balance.
• Ed spent four months researching court papers and interviewing relatives to tell their story fairly.
• Ed discusses how the creators eventually received credit for Superman before they died.
• Superman has appeared in some form of production every decade since 1938.

️ Superman's Creation and Complex History (22:26 - 32:30)

• Ed compares Siegel and Shuster's work-for-hire situation to actors in Gilligan's Island and Star Trek.
• Despite selling rights for 130, Siegel and Shuster made equivalent of 6 million in first nine years.
• Ed highlights Neil Adams' significant role in advocating for Superman's creators.
• Ed discusses his personal connection to Superman since age 5.
• Superman remains one of Ed's lifetime obsessions alongside Star Trek, Beatles, James Bond.
• Ed notes he can trace his lifelong interests to a five-year period in his childhood (1967-1972).
• Ed expresses gratitude for being able to write about his childhood passions professionally.

Superman: The Definitive History Book (32:30 - 43:07)

• Ed was approached to create official Superman history after 'Voices from Krypton' success.
• Initial deadline was only four months but was extended.
• Ed co-wrote with Bob Greenberger, who handled comic book history sections.
• The official book features extensive artwork including comics, production art, storyboards.
• Book is oversized (16 pounds) and retails for 175 (Amazon 157).
• Kindle version available for $19.99.
• Ed discusses his interactions with Brandon Routh, who wrote the foreword.
• Brandon embodies Superman's principles in real life, especially when interacting with fans.

Superman Actors and Future Projects (43:07 - 54:25)

• Ed has interviewed numerous Superman actors including Dean Cain, George Newbern, Tim Daly.
• Shares story of meeting Henry Cavill before Man of Steel and being struck by his Superman-like appearance.
• Ed is currently working on second volume of Planet of the Apes oral history.
• Ed mentions working on more Superman projects but can't discuss specifics yet.
• Every person interviewed was enthusiastic about discussing Superman.
• Ed shares anecdote about Kevin Smith's enthusiasm regarding a childhood Superman game.
• People recognize being part of Superman's 86-year legacy.
• Podcast hosts announce giveaway of Ed's book to Discord members.

 

Action items Case Aiken

• First three people to DM Case on Discord will receive copies of Ed's book (52:22)