Modern Marketers with Blake Beus and Greg Marshall

We’re seeing an impact the smaller businesses that that maybe are a little bit less established, or maybe don’t have a full marketing team, or like a holistic we use the summer for a holistic marketing strategy that includes multiple channels.

We’re gonna talk about testing. Yes, yeah, yeah. And because we bring it up a lot, but we kind of realize we haven’t talked specifically how to test and testing is one of those things, at least I’ve noticed that it’s really easy to go way overboard on and stress about every little intricacy of the test, or to just say, Screw it, am I gonna test and I tend to be the kind of person that when I first started, I want to go overboard. Sure. But I’ve realized that’s not helpful. So let’s just talk about testing. And it doesn’t have to be just ads, you can test in other ways, as well. So so let’s let’s dive into.

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Blake Beus  0:01  And we're good ready to go? Let's do this. Alright, so I'm going to start off with just Yes. Just asking you asking you this directly.

Blake Beus  0:12  We've all had this clients come to us say I want the cheapest traffic possible. I like where can I get my cost per click as low as possible? And and how can I spend the least on ads as possible? And that seems like a simple question with a simple answer, but it's not. We were talking about that and why?

Greg Marshall  0:35  You just told me. Yeah, this may be not a good idea to look for the cheapest traffic it Yeah. So in fact, I think it's a, in most cases, it's a bad strategy. Not every case. But most and the reason for and I think it also depends on your industry, but usually there's a direct correlation with the costs for traffic or cost per lead, and the quality of leads. So think of it like this, if you want, because I get this from clients a lot. And I know you have to where clients will say, I want to only target people with money. Right? Okay. You go. Yeah, well, of course, so does the rest of the world. Yeah, business. Everyone wants that client that will spend the most money without thinking about it. Right. So what what does that mean? That means everyone's going after that person, which means all these work and auction, you're going to be spending more money, yeah, per click. And your CPM, your cost for the actual impressions will be much higher. With that being said, you should actually look at that as a positive side. Yeah. Because if you can make those higher cost per clicks, higher CPMs work, you're going to I mean, your conversion rate is going to be high. And if you have a good lifetime value and customer is going to be worth it. The math works out. It's just a lot of times we become obsessed with the cost per whatever we're doing right? At almost at the detriment of how quality those are. Right, right. If I got you 100 leads for $1. Or I got you two leads for $50. You spent 100 bucks on each, but one of them gets zero conversions, and the other one gets one for $10,000. Which, which one would you prefer the one for $10,000 every time every time but what happens and this goes into something that we've talked about? What happens is businesses don't know their numbers. And so they actually just use other people's kind of results to like gauge them on what they should be doing. But they don't even know their own business numbers. Yeah. On whether they should be trying to scale or if they're winning if they're losing.

Blake Beus  2:50  Right. Right. Well, I think one of the key things I want to pull out one, one phrase you said in there is, you basically said if if you have a high lifetime value for your customer, and that's, in my mind, whenever I've had this conversation with any clients, or anybody talking about advertising, it always boils down to lifetime value. And usually, people aren't thinking super long term when they're when they approached me with this specific question, I want the lowest cost traffic, lowest cost per click possible. They're not, they're usually not thinking long term. And I oftentimes will tell them, well, it's usually easier, more profitable and less stressful to increase the lifetime value of your customer base than it is to go try to find the cheapest traffic possible and make that profitable. Yep. And, and so people tend to have that backwards just a little bit. So one of the things I liked to talk about with them was depending on the model, how can we increase that lifetime value, so that we can spend the most per click out of anybody out there out there in the industry? Because if we can be insanely prospect profitable to a point where we can spend more money than anybody else on each click, then you win every pain out there.

Greg Marshall  4:12  Well, and the

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Blake Beus  0:06  All right. All right. So Greg, I want to dive in, I just start asking you questions. So you brought up this thing to me, that was super, super interesting. And I feel like this is a really important topic. So I'm glad. I'm glad we're covering it. So it's no secret that Facebook specifically has been under a lot of fire for the last few years over like political advertisements, or politically charged narratives and their ads. And so one of the things they've done is stripped out some targeting options, made a bunch of adjustments to their algorithm. But it seems like there's an unintended consequence. That is, is impacting certain business. Yeah. So tell me what, tell me what you've been finding?

Greg Marshall  0:50  Well, certain segments. So I mean, the main one, I have a lot of African American clients that target the African American audience right now. They're selling cultural items and things that are going to resonate more with the African American than maybe a Caucasian. Right, right. And one of the things that I've noticed with a lot of the changes, and I think this has to do with there were so many issues politically, just a few years ago, and you know, people may be profiting off things that they shouldn't be, is Facebook kind of did the knee jerk reaction. So my guess could be they might bring it back. But anyways, what I mean is, Facebook took away a lot of targeting options that would go after or be able to target the African American community, or other, you know, other ethnicities. So you can kind of target your ad. So it's been a progressive checkoff from maybe what, two, three years ago, you could actually target. People like it was a target option, people that are most likely African American, most likely Hispanic, or whatever those options got taken away, then they slowly started to take away some of the interest targeting that you can go after that would imply that the audience may be of a certain race or ethnicity. For example, they took away a lot of the publications that were used for targeting to target the African American community. And they have taken off, I've even seen, I've got other clients that some other even deeper niches that they've taken away those interests that would target that culture. And so what's interesting is, during these changes, the knee jerk reaction seems to be over time, they're taking away more and more targeting towards those types of groups, which I think is a little bit challenging. If you're trying to sell cultural items. And broad targeting may not be the best option. It may be it could be right, but it may not be the best option, because you're not able to start to talk to the people that you're scientists or culture.

Blake Beus  3:07  Right. Right. So, so, um, I find this super interesting, because I mean, I'm also seeing publications in, you know, just broad publications. Well, let me let me talk about what we mean by publications, right? A lot of people may or may not realize this, but you used to be able to say, target a magazine, and say, you know, I want to go after people that are interested in this magazine, or target, even like a TV show or something like that. And those targeting options have been kind of removed. But when you started talking with me about that, I knew that those targeting options had been removed. But when you start talking with me about that, I didn't realize how much of an impact that had on, you know, special interest groups, minority groups, ethnic groups, because I, I've never targeted like that. It's, it's one of the things that I bump into, because, you know, I'm white, I don't I don't it that stuff doesn't come across my awareness a whole lot. Because I'm, I'm white, but yeah, do you have a lot of other people in those ethnicities targeting specifically to those ethnic

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Greg Marshall  0:03  All right. Well, Blake, I guess I got a lot of questions for you. Yeah, let's let's go deep into I think this this episode is gonna go heavy into E commerce. Yeah. And, you know, I'm just gonna open up to you to essentially start the questions.

Blake Beus  0:18  Yeah. So all right. So most people when they think about e commerce is like a business or whatever, almost everybody thinks, well, Amazon's out there. They're, they're doing this thing. And Amazon's his whole ecosystem and everything. But I mean, in my eyes, I feel like we're seeing a shift of companies moving over to their own platforms. Like it's like, it's like, what things were 1012 years ago, companies seem to be moving back towards that, because they're kind of getting sick of having things on Amazon and dealing with everything that's going on there. But I wanted on that, on that high level, what are like, are you seeing the same thing? Is that just me reading into things? Like, what are you thinking?

Greg Marshall  0:58  Yeah, so I am seeing the exact same thing. And to explain why I believe people are doing that is people that own these shops, are learning, you know, they don't want their payments frozen or controlled by another third party. But most importantly, I actually just had a conversation yesterday with one of my clients, saying, even with the Facebook, Instagram, check out they're being treated similar to Amazon, which is they're not able to get their name, email phone number, they just check out through Facebook, Instagram.

Blake Beus  1:31  Okay, so people are making sales, but they're not able to make repeat customers, because they can't continue to market to them correct. After the purchase? Correct.

Greg Marshall  1:39  And I was actually unaware of that part. She she brought this up to me. And I thought, okay, so it's similar to Amazon, what basically, the short answer is, people are kind of smartening up and realizing, well, yeah, it's great. If I can sell on these platforms, the problem is, I don't have any control, and I don't own my customer, therefore, I don't own anything, right. So I don't really have a business because the business is all about you owning your customers. And if the other platform, Amazon, Facebook, Instagram, makes you check out and doesn't give you that information, then they still own your customer, therefore, you don't have a real business.

Blake Beus  2:15  So they're basically just consolidating all the customers for themselves and giving you basically giving you some of that revenue for their customer. And essentially what it is that they're basically saying you have you have products and all these things that you're selling, but these are our customers correct. And so we'll we'll let you make purchases and things and we'll give you some money. So it feels like exactly, you have a business, but in all reality, you're just giving us customers, and we're using your products to gain more customers for us.

Greg Marshall  2:42  Exactly, exactly. So that's where I think there's there's a big shift, because people are realizing, you know, 3456 years down the road, especially if you're selling like on Amazon, all these other platforms, is when they sell on there, they really end up feeling stuck, like how do I grow my business? Because I don't have a customer list. Right? So I literally have to rely on these third party platforms, Facebook, Amazon, Instagram, to generate my sales,

Blake Beus  3:10  right? And if they change anything that could be have a huge impact on the business even just like Amazon changing the algorithm for their search. Correct, right? Like, or if some big player comes in and says, Oh, hey, I like that this company's this small company over here selling widgets, they're selling a bunch of them, so are going to bulk order from China

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Greg Marshall  0:02  Okay, we're good. All right.

Blake Beus  0:06  So it's funny you You and I both had an idea to talk about something today. We hadn't talked with discuss before. And it was the exact same topic

Greg Marshall  0:16  as the same top 100%, the same topic. And I was curious, because I was going to actually ask you if you heard about this, right, yeah. So why don't you reveal what this topic was?

Blake Beus  0:28  Google announced, what they call privacy sandboxes. And and

Greg Marshall  0:34  what's the translation for that translation log interactive?

Blake Beus  0:40  Well, they're kind of light on detail. But let me let me just talk about sandboxes really quick, because this is not a new concept. This is a concept that's used quite a bit from, like a security standpoint. So quick, super simple example is there's there are people out there security experts that research computer viruses, but they don't want to infect the computer with the viruses, but they need to run that virus on a computer to see what it's doing and see how to write their software to remove it or detect it or whatever like that. And so they put it in what's called a sandbox, which is basically a walled off area of the computer, that when something is inside, that it can't escape and get out. So that's like what a sandbox is. So Google, Google's privacy sandboxes would be would be something along those lines where things would run in isolation. And it sounds like I mean, they're kind of light on details, but it sounds like, they're going to either give people the option or enable the option by default to make sure that your apps are running in isolation. And so what you're doing in the app is stays within the app. And then the tracking doesn't bleed over out outside of the app or data aggregation or gathering data doesn't, doesn't, you know, can't get into the the app from outside the sandbox or whatever. So yeah, that's, that's the topic well, and

Greg Marshall  2:03  essentially, what that means, you know, the what caught my attention, because, you know, always good headlines always fear tactics work. And I saw the picture of the head of Mark Zuckerberg face. And I said, you know, something along the lines of like, you know, Facebook's in serious trouble, because now Android is doing what Apple did, which is taking away. What is the third party tracking? Is that what it's technically called? What is it called?

Blake Beus  2:31  Yeah, it would it would be called third party tracking, basically, Facebook's ability to track information outside of the Facebook app. Yep. And and apply that information to advertising strategies inside the Facebook app.

Greg Marshall  2:44  And what do you think? So what are your thoughts? I have a couple of thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours. What are your thoughts on how this will impact digital advertising? Particularly? Facebook? I feel like it impacts everyone. Yeah, like every platform no matter what. Yeah. It seems like Facebook, for whatever reason, is like the target.

Blake Beus  3:03  Yes. Well, I mean, a report came out last week or the week before that talked about how iOS his privacy changes, impacted Facebook's bottom line by about 20 billion in the last 18 months. Wow. So clearly, I mean, that's a number big enough that everybody, every executive, Facebook is worried about it. Yes. So this could also have another massive impact. Because what is something like 95% of people that use Facebook, or the time spent on Facebook happens inside of a mobile app? Yeah. And the two platforms are iOS and Android. Yeah. Right. And so this clearly is going to be causing them concerns. What it means from a practical standpoint from advertisers and things like that is that most likely Facebook is only going to be able to use reliably use data gathered within the pl

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Greg Marshall  0:03  And ladies and gentlemen, we got our audio is actually working on this one this last time. We forgot to double check it. And and I thought it was a good one.

Blake Beus  0:13  Yeah. It's good. It's it's good to be back. I think this is the first one we're actually recording in the new year. I mean, we've recorded some Yeah, before the new year and they launched after the new year, but now we're actually recording in the new year. So all of the holiday season is over now. 2022 Yeah, especially for us. And advertising is going to, I think advertising is going to take a big bunch of changes are going to, and you were just telling me right before Yeah, yeah. This this big, big admission?

Greg Marshall  0:46  Yeah. Facebook, I couldn't believe it. That's why That's why I think I had to like do a double take, because I thought I was like, Is this real? So there was like a big notification on one of the ad accounts when I when I went on there. And essentially, it was Facebook saying we understand that tracking is not is accurate. And you know, and I'm paraphrasing here, basically, that you're you're seeing worse results tracking wise than you ever have. That's essentially what it was saying in a very nice, nice way.

Blake Beus  1:17  Or they ran through a whole team of PR people or something but not opened ourselves up to any sort of legal acts. Yeah, having a terrible product.

Greg Marshall  1:27  And that's, you know, and that's basically what it felt like, right is I was reading it, and I was saying, but we're working very hard to fix this. And so, with that being said, I think a lot of customers and people that are using ads are are coming to the realization, which was something that I felt like, I will communicate with clients a lot, which is, and we've done this for years, right? Where even when we thought Facebook was super accurate, it still wasn't no 100% accurate. And so it's just now less accurate. Which, you know, is, you know, what are your thoughts on that? Like, for me, I know what I see. And like, it doesn't really bother me that much. Because there's there's a way around, then yeah, it actually makes it a little bit more, where you have to, I guess be a little more skilled at what you're doing. But what are your thoughts?

Blake Beus  2:21  Yeah, I'm gonna have a couple thoughts here for first and foremost, I feel like it's a little bit like Reagan in the Cold War when he said trust, but verify. Yeah. Except for I don't even know if I would entirely trust reported data into ad platforms. In fact, none of the ad platforms, right, just just the nature of how data works. It's never 100% accurate. So you always need to kind of verify it with with some hard data, right? So if, say hard data, yeah, if Facebook is saying you got 10 purchases, you look into your actual purchase system and see did you get 10 purchases that day, right. And so it's hard to pair up those purchases with a Facebook ad from your, from your purchase system, unless you're maybe dumping some traffic tracking codes into your purchase purchasing system, then you can but but you just want to kind of double double check. The second thing, the second thought that comes to my mind is, is I think we're gonna start seeing a lot more companies turn more and more to good media buyers and advertiser advertisers, because Facebook used to be a very easy platform for an entrepreneur to hop in there and kind of do their own thing. But so many things are changing with how tracking works, and how everything works, that media buyers are going to have to step up their game and the media buyers that are fastest at learning, the new things and fastest testing things are going to be the media buyers that are going to succeed in 2022. And beyond. And more companies are going to hold their media buyers to hi

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Blake Beus  0:00  We're recording now. And it is moving now.

Greg Marshall  0:03  All right. We just had a wonderful experience where we record a beautiful podcast for you guys. But for whatever reason, technology just paused on us. So

Blake Beus  0:12  I was the best one. It's, but it's gone. It's it's gone forever. But But we got this and we'll, we'll do it again. And I think we'll we'll make it even better.

Greg Marshall  0:22  Oh, yeah. 100% agree. So basically, our last podcast was about essentially, you know, when people people want to change, what they do that's already working? Well, you shouldn't write like, a challenge that I have, with a lot of clients, as I actually talked to them about, I have to talk them into not changing what's already working, because they're becoming bored with their own marketing campaigns. And so they want to, like, shift them, or let's try something new, or everyone in the whole world is seeing this, or my customers are too bombarded, which that typically is more about, we're thinking about ourselves too much right thing like, because I saw this 20 times, because I'm on the back end of my business that everyone else saw 20 times. But trust me they have. Yeah, because you got to spend a lot of money.

Blake Beus  1:13  Yeah, well, and what kind of sparked the whole conversations before we started recording the first time that didn't record correctly? You made a statement to me that kind of just really caught my attention. You said, I can't tell you how many times I have to have conversation with clients telling them not to change things not to make changes that that things are working. But they they want to like keep switching steps. Right. And we went off on a big tangent about why people do Yeah, some of that is never going to never going to be heard ever. Yeah. But I do remember some some bits of it. And one of them we were talking about? Well, let me let me tell you, you have some great ideas on why you think people want to change something that's working. They're spending, you know, $500 a day and they're getting $2,000 A day back. Yeah. And they want to shut the campaign down and try something.

Greg Marshall  2:08  Yeah, yeah. So those are basically the reasons why people want to do that. It's fear based, right. And we all run run into this, we're not excluding us, we're just saying, this is something that we all have to constantly, you know, be aware of, are we making decisions based off fear, or actual data, a lot of times, people present data in a way where they think it's data, but it's actually fear based. And they've just come up with a great argument, right. But really, it's two fears of fear. Number one is the fear of kind of looking like played out, like people see your stuff too much. Or like, you know, they've already done that there's no creativity in that. And, you know, creators pride themselves on having new stuff and coming up with new ideas. So it goes against their internal kind of makeup, to keep showing the same thing over and over again. And so one is they don't want to look like, you know, they're played out or going out of style, because they keep doing the same thing. And number two, is the fear of lack of resources, right? So they believe that, well, if I add on to what I'm already doing, I may not have the money, the mental capacity or the time to actually do this. So they want to cut things off. And another kind of reason for that is, when there's more things happening, there tends to be a feeling of loss of control. So the fastest way to kind of feel like you're back in control, is to stop something, or cut it off. And so that's, that's where I think a lot of that comes from,

Blake Beus  3:29  yeah, do you? Do you think that sometimes there's like this pressure from peers, or even a perceived pressure or pres

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Blake Beus  0:00  Okay, we are live. Greg, I want to start off first and foremost, asking you about you. You said you had some some, some feedback, some results based on what we talked about, in our last episode about success signals, soft signals. I can't remember all of them. But

Greg Marshall  0:18  well, basically, it was an idea of remember, and I'm gonna make sure I give them credit. Depeche. Yes. And I don't know how to say his last name correctly, man, Dahlia

Blake Beus  0:26  maendeleo. I think I think that's what it is. Yeah.

Greg Marshall  0:29  But basically, he was talking about a concept that I've thought of before and have tried and had success with. But everywhere you go, and look, you're told to not do right, which is, if you're not getting enough conversion events, which Facebook says you need to get 50 or more, then in a week, in a week. They, they're maybe you should optimize for the next highest step that's closest to what you want. And in a lot of cases, you know, the Facebook, you know, gurus or experts will say, Never optimize for those, because that's just poor quality traffic. But in my experience, I've never had that really happen. It's more so of it seems to give me better results when I'm optimizing for softer conversions if I'm not getting enough of like, let's say the purchase version in that week.

Blake Beus  1:22  Yeah. Well, and we even talked about optimizing simultaneously. Yes. For softer conversion, yes. The the the purchase conversion, the add to cart conversion, and the view cart conversion, at the same time with different campaigns.

Greg Marshall  1:38  Yep. And one of the campaigns the the account that I'm utilizing it on right now, in fact, that day that we implemented it, they actually did end up getting, what is it, we spent 50 and got $200 back, and I optimized for each event, the day that we implement it, which was kind of interesting, because then two days later, they almost repeated not to $200, they got to about like 170, or whatever, when previously on that particular like product that they're trying to push, we're spending 40 $50 a day and getting virtually I mean, just maybe a couple add to carts here and there, and no sales,

Blake Beus  2:18  really, so a huge increase in ROI from zero to 200. Correct. And I'm assuming you're only spending $50 a day because you're testing strategies to before you ramp it up.

Greg Marshall  2:29  Correct? Correct. So obviously, we don't want to go there, you know, dropping three, four hours a day on unproven right, you know, tests, right. And so then the another account that I've launched is with, they also so they stopped advertising for like about a month, which we all know, when you do that. It's almost like you have to like revamp your ad account. So what we did was we optimize for add to cart, and now simultaneously optimizing for purchase. Now previously, we launched a campaign just for purchase, and was getting $90 cost per purchase, whatever very expensive for the for the product, because it's the, the average order value is only 35. Okay, so

Blake Beus  3:12  now I need to look at cost per purchase is not is terrible, that's not sustainable.

Greg Marshall  3:17  So what we did was then I used the method of RM optimize for add to cart and then I'm going to go ahead and simultaneously once we get enough Add to Cart, duplicate the ad set, keep both of them running side by side and optimize the next one for purchase. And lo and behold, that day we got a $20 cost per purchase, the very day that we launched those simultaneous account wide, right? Because account why? Because Facebook's not going to give you this blended cost per purchase or if you're running multiple campaigns, correct. They're only going to give you a cost per purchase on each campaign. Correct? Correct. And so basica

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Greg Marshall  0:00  Let's talk about right before we always we almost get our topics from our pre talk, basically before we hit record, so they were talking about algorithms and bundles, and you know, just kind of do things differently. So let's kind of first start off with, let's actually talk about the bundles that you're telling him with Gary Vee. Oh, okay. Let's actually start with that. Okay. I think that that's super important, because there's a huge lesson and what he did, which was, he made an unbelievable unique, exclusive offer to accomplish a certain goal. Now go ahead and share with us. Yeah, that was

Blake Beus  0:40  Yeah, so so if you don't know who Gary Vee is, you're living under a rock, but that's okay. It's fine. He's He's a social media guy. He's got a bunch of books and things like that. He's got a new book launching that I honestly don't even know the name of the book. It's like 1212 and a half something. Yeah, and has something to do with business and marketing. But I've seen a lot of news articles talking about how Gary Vee sold a million dollars worth of his books book in 24 hours, because he offered an NFT to two people that that bought the book. And if you're not familiar with an NFT, not to go to off in the deep end, but it's basically a digital asset. It could be a video or an image or something like that, and your ownership is is granted through blockchain technology. And there's several different marketplaces out there. And I don't want to dive in deep to the technicalities of that, but that's essentially what it is. But it's a digital good. And so what how he structured his offer is if you you bought 12 books, you he would give you one of his new NF T's, which I think is literally just an image. Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's all it is. NFT is you would get one of these NF T's for free and your ownership would be verified through again the blockchain. So it's like an image plus this like blockchain thing. And it's a buzz buzz phrase. So but I've seen a ton of people just gush over Gary Vee for for using a new way to use NF T's and yada yada, yada, yada, but, but for me, I don't feel like that was the magic of the offer. And I feel like the magic of the offer was, he sat down and thought, I want to sell more books. But people usually only buy one book at a time. Like how many how many times? Have you bought more than one of the exact same book Greg like never I never do. I never never I mean, maybe maybe I'll buy an extra a year later and give it to someone

Greg Marshall  2:34  as a gift. Or I'll do maybe an audio that yeah, full extent. That's the full

Blake Beus  2:39  extent, right. And that's what that's how most people consume books because their books, Gary Vee came up with a plan to get the same person to buy not one or two or three books, but 12 at a time, by giving them something, this digital asset that literally costs him nothing to give them. Yep. That's the magic to me. And I feel like that magic can happen to many, many, many other businesses without having to dive into the NFT space, because that can be kind of overwhelming for some people or whatever. But I thought that was fascinating. Like, yeah, I

Greg Marshall  3:16  think, kind of the uniqueness of that offer is it's obviously well thought, as far as wanting to hit the number one book selling lists, right, knowing the knowing the rules of the game. Yeah, right. That's what I think he's very good at is dissecting the rules of the game, and then maximizing his opportunities within those rules, right. So number one, he's gonna sell even more books, because not only did he do pre order of 12 books at a time, right, which gets him a million copies. But those numbers will also impact his, you know, near Times bestseller list, which will place him number one, in all the