What is the value of music? We often think of this question in economic terms, but it doesn’t always have to do with money. After all, there’s a value difference between someone strumming a guitar at home, playing in a band, or trying to land a major label deal in that band. Each has its own kind of “value,” but these values are not the same.

Parsing out these different kinds of values is the focus of Making Value: Music, Capital and the Social, a recent book by our guest, Timothy D. Taylor, Professor of Ethnomusicology at UCLA. In the book, Taylor takes a novel approach, using anthropological value theory to examine how people’s ideas about value shape both the production and consumption of music while theorizing on the relationship between music’s economic and noneconomic forms. The result is a more a more comprehensive and complicated look at life and music under capitalism, one in which supposedly non-commodified, utopian spaces outside the market turn out to be far messier and more entangled within its overarching structures that we’d often like to admit.

Sam and Taylor dive deep into this topic, tracing threads from Echo Park’s indie scene of the 2010s to Franz Liszt’s 19th-century star power to broad conceptions of gift-giving through the work of Marcel Mauss.

Daniel Ek, overlord of Spotify, recently lead an investment round of $600+ for a private German defense tech company. Despite Ek having invested in this kind of military technology since 2021, it seems to have suddenly reached everyone’s attention. As a result, lovable indie weirdos Deerhoof are leading Ek’s recent round of bad press with claims that they’ll be pulling their music off Spotify because they don’t support war, drones, American imperialism, A.I. and a number of other things detailed in multiple text-only posts on Instagram (whose parent company Meta definitely doesn’t invest in anything terrible that’s also accelerating the rise of T-1000s coming soon to a battlefield near you.)

Ironic joking aside, it’s an interesting and unique case of music intersecting with geopolitics which feels ….rare? After all, since the commodification of music, have fans ever faced so many ethical quandaries? And how to even begin dissecting Ek’s investment under the shadow of Trump demanding Europe start footing more of their defense bill? And what difference would getting off Spotify actually make in the world (none), but maybe we should do it anyways (sure)?

Sam and Saxon bring out that ole dog and pony show of ethical consumerism and consider that maybe those nice music listeners who are just trying to do right in a wrong world should strain to rethink where they locate politics.

In the end, Sam gets hopeful, Saxon remains skeptic and both consider the real potentials of a federated streaming service that includes both Cyndi Lauper and Sun City Girls …plus blockchain.

Money4Nothing is a podcast and newsletter on music and capitalism produced solely by Sam Backer and Saxon Baird. If you dig what we do, consider a (very cheap) subscription.

This past week saw the passing of legendary musicians Sly Stone and Brian Wilson at the (relatively) ripe age of 82. While both men had grappled with the challenges of fame and mental health over their long careers, their deaths weren’t the result of these struggles—but rather the inevitable march of time. And they aren’t alone. The stars of the 60s and 70s are all slowing down: Aerosmith, Kiss, Billy Joel, Elton John…the list of musical pillars hanging up the spandex and rhinestones suggests the true end of an era. But what does our inevitable future look like as we come to what is beginning to feel like the final close of a generation? We think through the economic implications, but settle on the totemic possibilities. When did we last agree on anything the way we agreed on the greatness of Sly and Brian? And what will mass culture look like in the wake of those shared touchstones?

In the second-half, an alternate possibility is demonstrated by the (former?) hardcore (rock?) superstars-in-training Turnstile, who just released their long-awaited 5th album—but not before playing an absolutely massive free show in Sam’s beloved Wyman Park Dell in Baltimore. This is a band you either are sick of hearing about or have literally never come across—a dichotomy that reflects our contemporary musical landscape…particularly in comparison with the era of the ‘60s and ‘70s. We try and wrap our head around the phenomenon, figuring what it means to be a “big” band in 2025, who cares about whether or not anyone is a “sellout,” and….if this music makes literally any sense to us. Come for the breakdowns. Stay for the Bluenotes.

Money4Nothing is a podcast and newsletter on music and capitalism produced solely by Sam Backer and Saxon Baird. If you dig what we do, consider a (very cheap) subscription.

On our latest episode, Sam and Toby Bennett talk about how the major labels have transformed themselves in the digital era. But, while the UMG, Warner, and Sony are continent-spanning IP behemoths, they are also made of people: people with ideas about themselves, and the work they do, and the industry they do it in. And if the industry was changing between, say, 2000 and 2010, then the people within it were too—a shift in ideology and outlook absolutely integral to the contemporary culture industry.

Understanding this relationship between large-scale business practices and the intimate social transformations that both reflected AND caused them is the subject of the fantastic new book, “Corporate Life in the Digital Music Industry: Remaking the Major Label from the Inside Out” by Toby Bennett. An ethnographic analysis of bleary-eyed mornings and iPod diplomacy, it sheds light on what was going on inside the major label machine as it struggled to navigate the streaming revolution—and began to repaint itself in millennial pink. Sam and Toby Bennett discuss the social geography of major-label London, the complex hierarchies of office work, and the tightrope debates over what it means to “respect” pop. Also, don’t miss the lightly conspiratorial discussion of habitus-forming corporate education that will change the way you look at those “creative economy” college courses forever.

As you might have noticed, the global economic system has hit a bit of a…snag—namely, the United States upending almost 80 years of foreign policy with little-to-no clarity on process, structure, or medium-term aims. That’s right, baby…We’re talkin' tariffs! Now, some of the impacts are, to be honest, pretty straightforward: Those Mexican strats? Those Roland 808s? Those T-Shirts at the merch table? Tariffed!

But, in typical Money 4 Nothing fashion, we look past the headlines and try to think through the broader implications of the New World Order. What could a recession do to an industry that’s already seeing a slowdown in streaming growth? How might a stock market crash impact the balance of power between tech firms and “counter cyclical” major labels? Will travel bans hit superfans? And, perhaps most importantly—just how much of our contemporary culture industry is based on the world’s century-long embrace of American identity? Come for a quick tour through “recession pop.” Stay for our totally justified gloating about predicting, not ALL of this, but definitely a LOT of this.

Money4Nothing is a podcast and newsletter on music and capitalism produced solely by Sam Backer and Saxon Baird. If you dig what we do, consider a (very cheap) subscription.

What is a band? Think about it for a second, and it becomes less obvious. What you see is a couple of people on stage rocking out. But think about it more and it gets more complex. Actually, bands really aren’t really like anything else—part business, part social club, part artistic partnership, part job…operating at the interstitial zone between disciplined employment and liberatory self-expression. This strange, cobbled-together structure—and the conflicts, hierarchies, pleasures, and intimacies it creates—is at the heart of “Band People: Life and Work in Popular Music,” a revelatory new book from Franz Nicolay (who…has been in one or two bands himself). To learn more, we dig into everything from the complexity of (musical) democracy to the political economy of expression—not to mention how local unions might be the answer, the dangerous effects of Romanticism, and how there’s never a escape from the problem of power.

Money4Nothing is a podcast and newsletter on music and capitalism produced solely by Sam Backer and Saxon Baird. If you dig what we do, consider a (very cheap) subscription.

Late last year, Universal Music shelled out 775 million dollars to snap up Downtown Music, a “global music company” that manages “over 50 million music assets”. Perhaps famously, Downtown owns Cd Baby—a digital distributor that, along with peers like Tunecore and Distrokid, has become central to the infrastructure of the streaming economy. These companies enable artists to upload their music to platforms like Spotify, and their influence has grown alongside the ever-increasing flood of “independent” artists bypassing the label system to share their music directly with the people.

But…is this kind of market-based independence really all it’s cracked up to be? Or is it another example of music serving as a microcosm for the broader structures of capitalism. And if so—what are the potential implications of the biggest of all majors stepping into the distribution fray? To try and understand it all, Saxon and Sam dive into the history of distributors, from their decades schlepping vinyl to their more recent focus on herding ones-and-zeros. We talk streaming 1.0 vs. streaming 2.0, debate the economic purpose of community, and fret about the vast tubes of data that lead directly to Lucian Grange’s voracious maw. What, after all, could possibly go wrong?

Listen to “Digital Distribution and the Ideology of Being Indy” wherever you get your podcasts.

Money4Nothing is a podcast and newsletter on music and capitalism produced solely by Sam Backer and Saxon Baird. If you dig what we do, consider a (very cheap) subscription.

This week? Heavy Hitters. As you may (or may not) have heard,  journalist/Daniel Ek tormenter/friend-of-the-pod Liz Pelly is making waves with her wonderful new book “Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist.” It’s easily the best thing yet written about the company at the center of modern music, insightfully reconstructing how Spotify’s shifting interests and policies have remade how we listen, who we listen to, and what they get paid.

To get a deeper perspective on both the book and the histories it emerges from, we also called up David Turner—of the late (lamented) Penny Fractions—pulling him out of retirement for one last big music + capitalism score. Together Liz, David, and Sam dive into everything from the economics of ghost artists and the aesthetics of vibes-based listening to the intentional destruction of cultural context in the streaming age. It’s a conversation that helps clarify the singularity of Spotify culture—and allows us to better detach its operations from the meaning of digital music. Come for the playlists. Stay for what they’ve done to you.

Buy Liz Pelly's book "Mood Machine"

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Look. Times are dark. So this week, we decided to tackle a somewhat lighter topic and look into Drake’s remarkably tone-deaf lawsuit against Universal Music Group—the label to which both he and (beef opponent) Kendrick Lamar are signed. In essence, Drake alleges that UMG used all their influence to make Kendrick’s Grammy-winning diss track “Not Like Us” a viral mega-hit. Which, like…yeah. Of course they did. They are in the business of producing viral mega-hits.

While the context of the lawsuit—namely, multiple violent attacks on Drake’s house—is quite serious, it’s hard not to find the whole thing ridiculous. After over a decade of industry machinations, Aubrey really had the nerve to sue UMG for…hurting his feelings? [Yes, it’s actually for defamation of character, but in the court of public opinion, those two are pretty much synonymous] Despite this, the actual content of the legal filing is fascinating—offering readers a guided tour of exactly what UMG is doing out there, hosted by someone who really knows how the sausage gets made. Payola? Selective copyright enforcement? Contract negotiation hardball? You betcha. THEN: Saxon and Sam get a little loose and take a jog through the Grammys. Album Of The Year? Sure. But also…who did you have for Immersive Audio?  

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The second Trump administration will impact pretty much everything, but we decided to take some time and focus on the specific conjecture of industry + culture + technology that is AI. After all, when Biden came to office, LLMs were just really starting to get going—while the last 12 months have seen a mind-bending set of developments, both in terms of corporate activity and technical possibility. Given the rate of both change and adoption, the next 4 years will almost certainly be crucial, potentially locking us into a long-term pathway with both these machines AND the companies that make them.

So…what might happen? And how will it impact music, given the massive copyright lawsuits currently working their way through the courts? Saxon and Sam put on their tinfoil hats, got out their crystal ball, and…did their best. The resulting conversation moves from big (contradictory impulses between protectionism and libertarianism within the Trump coalition?) to bigger issues (War? Stock market crash?) to the generally intangible (shifting relationships between Americans and the ideologies of cultural authority?) Come for a connect-the-dots conversation that links Elon Musk and AGI to the possibility of earning a living by making art. Stay because at least we’re all doomed together.

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For more background, check our our episode on AI + Copyright Lawsuits in Music.