More Than A Lawyer with Holly Cope

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In this episode, I'm talking with Joey Irwin, Co-Founder of Kyra Law, an AI-native law firm for startups. Joey shares his journey from Linklaters and Monzo to spending a year experimenting with AI and building the foundations of a new legal business.

We explore how Kyra combines AI agents, shared institutional knowledge and experienced lawyers to deliver legal services with upfront fees and responsive communication. Joey explains how the firm captures each client’s preferences, checks work before it leaves the business, and uses automation to create more space for judgment, relationships and flexible working.

We also discuss winning clients, moving towards more complex work, and why the most useful question lawyers can ask about AI is: how will this improve my client’s experience?

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

01:00 What is an AI-native law firm?

04:00 Training programme

06:19 Upfront fees, responsiveness and better client communication

09:38 Inside Kyra: AI agents and a second brain for clients

16:37 Quality control, governance and client data

20:14 Building the platform and taking on more complex work

22:56 Joey’s journey from Linklaters and Monzo to Kyra

24:37 A year of vibe coding and building without external funding

28:58 Winning clients and earning repeat business

31:46 The admin iceberg: automation, judgment and strategy

32:42 Making legal work more enjoyable and flexible

35:17 AI skills, agents and putting clients first

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In this episode, I'm talking with Marcelo Moura, a dual-qualified associate in Mishcon de Reya’s Commercial Litigation team, co-founder of AI2L, and UK Ambassador of the Brazilian Legal Tech Association (AB2L). He has worked in law since 2005 and has been involved in AI, innovation, and legal-tech initiatives since 2017.

We compare Brazil’s high-volume, increasingly digitised courts with the UK’s legal system and explore how different rules shape legal technology. Marcelo also shares why he once feared AI would replace lawyers, how to use LLMs without outsourcing human judgment, and what thoughtful AI adoption means for law firms, lawyers, and students.

Chapters

00:00 Meet Marcelo Moura and explore Brazil’s legal-tech story

02:42 Why Marcelo calls Brazil “the largest legal-tech laboratory in the world”

05:15 The Newsletter

05:32 Paperless courts and how legal systems shape legal technology

08:26 Brazil’s legal-tech market: predictive analytics and online dispute resolution

14:06 The risks of automating court filings and the limits of court efficiency

16:05 Why so many Brazilian consumer disputes become individual cases

19:44 Brazil’s legal market and untapped business potential

21:40 Why legal-tech markets should learn from each other

28:13 Automation and the value of bespoke legal work

33:17 How fear of AI shaped Marcelo’s career and led him to speak up

36:06 How AI became part of everyday legal practice

37:26 Will AI mean fewer lawyers, and how can lawyers prepare?

40:18 AI in legal education and the value of learning by doing

42:21 What a law firm’s AI strategy needs to consider

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Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I'm joined by leaders working at the highest levels of corporate legal practice, big law, and public service:

• Sonia Cisse, Tech, Cybersecurity, Privacy, E-Commerce, and Fintech Partner at Linklaters.

• David Mazur, Vice President, General Counsel, and Compliance Officer for Research and Development at Nestlé.

• Alexandre Verrien, Legal Executive and former Legal Director of France for Dell Technologies.

• Peter Boyce, Legal Deputy Director in the UK Civil Service and AI lead for his agency.

• Amy Cronin, Senior Director of Legal at Skyscanner.

We explore one of the biggest questions facing the legal profession: where should AI stop and human judgment begin?

From algorithmic bias and verification to governance, legal risk, and team culture, this conversation goes far beyond productivity tools. We discuss why human empathy, negotiation nuance, and strategic thinking remain the legal system's greatest strengths, and what core skills lawyers must build to thrive in the age of AI.

You'll hear perspectives on AI literacy, prompt engineering, legal data hygiene, and future-proof skill sets that most lawyers aren't talking about yet.

In this episode:

00:00 - Sonia Cisse: Adaptability & Legal Mindset Shifting

00:38 - AI Risk Assessment & Data Security Governance

01:01 - Generative AI Literacy & Operational Fluency

02:01 - AI-Augmented Career Positioning for Junior Lawyers

04:16 - Cross-Disciplinary Hybridization (Legal Data Science)

04:42 - The Newsletter

05:13 - Introduction David Mazur

05:23 - High-Level Strategic Legal Thinking & Deal Structuring

05:59 - Visual Legal Communication & Stakeholder Influence

06:27 - Scientific Experimentation & Applied Curiosity

07:40 - Secure Contextual Research & AI Thinking Partnership

08:55 - Strategic Regulatory Oversight & Ethical AI Governance

09:49 - Introduction Alexandre Verrien

10:08 - Complex Negotiation & Strategic Human Judgment

11:27 - "Human-in-the-Loop" Quality Control & Output Verification

11:55 - Advanced Prompt Engineering & Context Framing (Avoiding GIGO)

12:40 - Legal Data Hygiene & Corporate Information Architecture

13:33 - Legal Process Optimization & Change Leadership (PPT Framework)

14:58 - Introduction Peter Boyce & Amy Cronin

15:38 - Critical Thinking, Advocacy & High-Order Soft Skills

16:11 - Technical LLM Literacy & Vendor Evaluation

16:46 - Continuous Upskilling & Structured Innovation Management

17:23 - No-Code Legal Engineering & AI Agent Building

18:01 - AI Liability Ownership & Adaptive Growth Mindset

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Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today I'm sitting down with Raffi Isanians, a former BigLaw M&A lawyer (with experience at Kirkland & Ellis, Gunderson, and Goodwin), Y Combinator alum, and founder of Mage Legal.

Mage Legal helps law firms and in-house legal teams automate legal due diligence by scanning data rooms, flagging risky clauses, generating reports, and producing follow-up questionnaires. Alongside building Mage, Rafi runs Coding for Lawyers, an initiative that helps legal professionals develop technical skills to build with AI better.

We talk about why AI won't replace human lawyers, but will radically alter how law firms operate, price, and compete.

You’ll hear fresh perspectives on why today's top law firms are becoming technology companies, why treating AI like a "smart associate" changes how you prompt, and what attorneys need to do now if they want to stay relevant in an AI-first world.

Timestamps:

00:00 — Intro

02:08 — Why AI Won't Replace Lawyers (But Will Reshape Everything)

03:40 — Why Lawyers Should Be Worried About Being Left Behind

05:38 — The Newsletter

06:10 — Overcoming Risk-Aversion & Investing in Tools

09:29 — "Vibe Coding" & The Shift in Legal Mindset

11:01 — AI-Native Law Firms: Recipe for Disaster or Future Necessity?

13:24 — Case Study: Cleary Gottlieb & Cleary X

14:08 — Debunking the Myth: Are Lawyers Training AI to Replace Them?

18:16 — Prompting Best Practices: Treat AI Like a Smart Associate

20:56 — Skills for the Future: Do Lawyers Need Technical Depth?

22:52 — Over-Reliance on Legal Tech & Vendor Dynamics

26:33 — How Legal Tech Companies Survive: Bridging Tech & Legal Expertise

31:02 — What AI Can't Replace: Human Connection & Emotional Labor

34:33 — Building the Law Firm of the Future

39:09 — Outro

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Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One of the biggest concerns about AI in law is that if AI does all the junior work, how will junior lawyers learn? I've discussed this many times on my podcast. After all, legal careers have traditionally been built through repetition, reviewing documents, researching, drafting, making mistakes, and getting feedback.

I'm repeating this cycle thousands of times.

The assumption is that if AI removes some of that work, it removes the learning. But what if the opposite is true?

Today I'm sitting down with Mike Kochkin, founder at BeSavvy, an AI-powered legal training platform helping law firms rethink how lawyers learn, develop judgment, and build practical skills in an AI-first world.

Mike is one of the most thoughtful voices I've spoken to on the future of legal education. Rather than focusing on AI as a productivity tool, he explores how it can transform the way junior lawyers develop expertise, confidence, and professional judgment.

We discuss how AI is reshaping legal training and why many of the assumptions law firms have about developing junior talent may no longer hold true.

Mike shares a fascinating perspective: AI isn't creating a training gap. It's solving a century-old problem.

You'll hear perspectives on legal education, professional development, and AI adoption that most lawyers aren't talking about yet.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why AI may dramatically shorten legal learning and feedback cycles

• The difference between a "training gap" and a "shift in focus"

• Why first-principles thinking matters more than learning legal tech tools

• How AI-powered simulations can accelerate professional development

• The hidden problem with traditional legal training models

• Why junior lawyers are becoming afraid to use AI

• How law firms can create safe environments for learning and experimentation

• The future of virtual vacation schemes and AI-driven legal education

• Why product builders and relationship builders will both thrive in law firms

• How AI could generate personalised legal training experiences on demand

• The role of judgment, risk assessment, and critical thinking in an AI-first profession

• Why legal tech skills may be less important than most lawyers think

• How law firms should prepare their training programmes for the next generation of lawyers

If you're a lawyer, law student, legal innovator, or simply interested in how AI will reshape professional expertise, this conversation offers a glimpse into what legal education could look like over the next decade.

---

Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I'm joined by three leaders working at the highest levels of legal practice and regulation.

Brett Dixon, Vice President of the Law Society of England and Wales and a long-time advocate for access to justice, legal innovation, and procedural reform.

William Findlay, Head of Legal Regulatory at Revolut.

James Smither, Global Head of Risk Management at Freshfields. James is a self-described "risk geek" dedicated to redefining how law firms perceive uncertainty as both a massive upside and a critical downside.

We explore one of the biggest questions facing the legal profession: where should AI stop and human judgement begin?

From algorithmic bias and hallucinations to governance, legal risk, and the future of common law, this conversation goes far beyond productivity tools. We discuss why the flexibility of human judgement remains one of the legal system's greatest strengths and what could be lost if we hand too much decision-making to machines.

You'll hear perspectives on AI, justice, legal ethics, risk management, and the future of legal practice that most lawyers aren't talking about yet.

---

Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I'm talking with Alexandre Verrien.

He used to be the legal director of France for Dell Technologies, but now he works for himself as a legal executive.

With decades of experience at the intersection of law and technology, Alex offers a unique perspective on how AI is reshaping legal departments, law firms, and the future role of lawyers themselves.

We explore what an AI-first legal future actually looks like and why many legal teams still aren't prepared for the transformation already underway.

Alex shares practical insights on legal tech adoption, the mindset barriers holding teams back, and why successful AI implementation is far more about people and processes than technology alone.

Key Topics Discussed:

Why the future of law will be increasingly technological and AI-driven.

The mindset challenges preventing legal teams from embracing change.

Whether AI will replace lawyers and where human judgment remains irreplaceable.

How AI is already reducing workloads and reshaping legal team structures.

Why junior lawyers are still essential despite automation.

New roles emerging inside legal departments, including Legal AI Engineers and Legal Data Analysts.

The importance of clean data and "human-in-the-loop" review processes.

Why many legal departments lack a clear AI strategy.

The risks of a "wait and see" approach to legal technology.

How legal leaders can prepare their teams for the next decade

Alex argues that while AI can accelerate drafting, review, and administrative work, it cannot replace negotiation skills, business judgment, or the human understanding required in complex legal situations.

The Legal Department of 2030 Will Look Very Different.

---

Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyse the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I'm talking with Brett Dixon, Vice President of the Law Society of England and Wales and a long-time advocate for access to justice, legal innovation, and procedural reform.

Brett brings a unique perspective from both frontline legal practice and legal policymaking, offering a thoughtful view on how AI should - and shouldn’t - be integrated into the justice system.

We explore one of the biggest questions facing the legal profession today: can AI strengthen access to justice without undermining trust in the legal system?

Brett shares why integrity, transparency, and human oversight must remain at the centre of any AI-driven future, and explains why he prefers to think of AI as augmented intelligence rather than artificial intelligence.

In this episode, you'll learn:

Why the UK legal system's reputation depends on maintaining transparency and accountability.

The dangers of AI hallucinations in legal practice and how lawyers can spot them.

Why human judgment remains essential in courts and legal decision-making.

How AI can improve access to justice without replacing lawyers.

The risks of bias in AI systems and how training data shapes outcomes.

Why common law relies on human creativity and legal evolution.

What regulation of legal AI may look like in the coming years.

The growing divide between large firms adopting AI rapidly and smaller firms struggling with resources.

Why the future of legal services is likely to be AI-assisted rather than AI-replaced.

How law firms can approach AI strategically while protecting client trust.

The future of legal AI isn't about removing humans from the process.

It's about using technology to enhance human expertise while preserving the principles that make justice work: integrity, transparency, accountability, and access for everyone.

As Brett argues, the legal profession has always been full of problem-solvers and innovators. The challenge now is ensuring AI serves those values rather than replacing them.

---

Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this special compilation episode, I am joined by a powerhouse lineup of legal innovators, practitioners, and tech leaders who are actively reshaping the industry:

Zack Shapiro, founder of an AI-native law firm, Rains LLP. 

Alexander, Co-lead of AI Research at Thomson Reuters.

Sandy MacDonald, the Senior Director and Head of Legal Operations at DocuSign.

Dharshi Harindra, a tech lawyer, Assistant General Counsel, and Executive Coach.

We talk about the profound shift toward agentic AI in the legal sector and how mastering detailed prompting, continuous feedback, and custom workflows creates an unassailable competitive advantage for forward-thinking lawyers. You’ll hear perspectives on overcoming the legal trust gap, avoiding "AI slop," and leveraging entrepreneurial mindsets that most traditional law firms are completely missing.

We dive into:

The Tech-Lawyer Trust Gap: Why legal tech companies miss the mark by pitching software features rather than understanding the granular, day-to-day challenges and cultural mindsets of practicing lawyers. 

The Blueprint for Custom AI "Skills": How to move past simple one-line prompts and instead use an essay-length context or voice rants to build hyper-specific digital assistants that compound in value through continuous feedback. 

The Breaking Leverage Model: Why traditional firms relying on bloated billable hours face an existential threat from lean, entrepreneurial, AI-native practitioners. 

The "Half-Lawyer, Half-AI" Evolution: How junior lawyers and trainees can create massive, unprecedented value by stepping up as the bridge between pure computer science and legal practice. 

AI Slop vs. Human Judgment: The critical importance of keeping your brain turned on, verifying citations, and using AI for heavy cognitive lifts rather than as an excuse for lazy output. 

Compliance and Regulation Blind Spots: Why rushing into technology without understanding data protection boundaries - like using WhatsApp groups for firm operations - creates massive regulatory red flags.  

---

Each week I take what I'm hearing in conversations with legal leaders.

I analyze the market and track emerging trends in this AI era.

In my newsletter called The Future Lawyer Market Intel for the AI era

I'm focused on:

What AI is exposing

The opportunities

The blind spots

And the shifts shaping the next five years.

This is how you see the chessboard before everyone else does:

https://hollycope.my.canva.site/thefuturelawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode, I'm talking with Anna Popowicz - Pazdej, Global Senior Data Privacy Lawyer at Dentons.

Anna walks us through the heavy-lifting required to move a firm from a "proof of concept" to full operational readiness, ensuring that innovation never comes at the cost of client confidentiality.

We talk about the meticulous process of implementing AI—starting with the Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) and ending with firm-wide AI literacy. You’ll hear perspectives on why your architectural diagram is your best defense against data leaks and how to prevent your client’s trade secrets from becoming part of a vendor’s training set. 

The Compliance Blueprint: Why the Data Protection Impact Assessment (DPIA) is your primary tool for assessing data residency and encryption risks. 

Architecture Matters: Understanding the data flow between models and the importance of encryption both in transit and at rest. 

The Hallucination Fix: How Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) databases can minimize AI errors by grounding responses in your own secure data. 

The "Shadow AI" Threat: The dangers of using unassessed AI tools that may retrain their models using your sensitive client data. 

Operational Readiness: Balancing innovation with policy through specific guidelines, retention periods, and tiered training for junior vs. senior lawyers. 

Vendor Warranties: Essential clauses for your Data Processing Agreements (DPA) to ensure vendors and subprocessors do not use your data for their own model training.  

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.