In this episode of Next in Media, I sit down with Kiri Masters, host of the Retail Media Breakfast Club podcast, to explore the biggest shifts happening in retail media advertising. We dive into the recent announcement about ads coming to ChatGPT and what that means for brands trying to meet consumers where they are. Kiri shares her perspective on whether AI-powered shopping will truly disrupt the retail media landscape - and why she's optimistic that LLM-based ads could actually be more relevant and less annoying than traditional formats. We also unpack the Walmart-Google partnership and discuss what it signals about the future of conversational commerce.

Beyond the AI conversation, we tackle some of the industry's most pressing questions. Will we see consolidation in retail media networks this year? Can shoppable TV finally gain traction? And what happens when offsite retail media faces competition from platforms with their own transactional data? Kiri brings both historical context - including a fascinating story about Piggly Wiggly's self-service revolution - and forward-looking insights about how brands and retailers need to collaborate differently. Whether you're a marketer navigating this space or just curious about where AI and commerce intersect, this conversation offers a clear-eyed look at what's real, what's hype, and what's coming next.

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🤖 Ads in AI Assistants: Kiri explains why she's optimistic that ads in LLMs like ChatGPT could actually enhance the user experience rather than detract from it - as long as they're contextually relevant and leverage the deep personal insights these platforms have.

🛒 The Walmart-Google Partnership: Why retailers want to maintain control as the merchant of record even as they experiment with AI-powered shopping surfaces, and what this means for the competitive landscape between retailers and tech giants.

📊 Amazon's Retail Media Dominance: How Amazon has trained brands to expect exceptional reporting and data-driven insights, creating a high bar that other retailers struggle to match - and why CFOs love the platform's transparency.

🔄 Consolidation is Coming: With over 250 retail media networks globally but brands only wanting to work with 5-7 partners, Kiri predicts we'll see more partnerships like Macy's and Amazon this year as the market rationalizes.

💡 The Piggly Wiggly Lesson: A fascinating historical parallel about how the first self-service grocery store in 1916 got consumers to change behavior by passing savings directly to them - a lesson for how AI shopping might need to work.

⚠️ Offsite Media at Risk: If AI-powered shopping takes off, offsite retail media networks could face serious competition as LLMs gain access to transaction and intent data that retailers previously controlled.

🎯 Back to Category Growth: Kiri advocates for retailers and brands to move beyond performance-focused land grabs and return to collaborative trade marketing strategies that grow entire categories together.

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🎙️ Follow Kiri Masters and subscribe to Retail Media Breakfast Club

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Introduction - Ads in AI assistants

00:40 This week on Next in Media

01:00 Meet Kiri Masters of Retail Media Breakfast Club

01:40 Ads coming to ChatGPT and conversational search

02:10 How brands follow consumers to new platforms

03:30 Will AI commerce disrupt retail media?

04:00 Will ads in LLMs work like Google and Facebook?

04:40 The importance of trust in AI assistants

05:00 Why AI ads could be better than traditional ads

06:00 Context and relevance in LLM advertising

07:00 The trust equation in conversational AI

08:00 Understanding AI ads won't necessarily suck

08:10 Walmart and Google partnership announcement

08:30 Are people ready to shop through AI interfaces?

09:00 Building trust through repeated exposure to LLMs

09:40 Story time - buying an iPod on eBay in 1999

11:00 Testing Instacart on ChatGPT

11:40 Sao CTV ad

12:40 Why Walmart partnered with Google

13:20 Retailers want to remain merchant of record

14:40 Can every retailer integrate with AI platforms?

15:20 Consumer choice and retailer selection criteria

16:00 The Piggly Wiggly story - self-service revolution

17:00 Consumer behavior change requires value proposition

17:40 State of retail media today

18:20 Amazon's dominance in retail media

19:20 Offsite retail media and in-store opportunities

20:00 How AI threatens offsite retail media networks

20:40 Open web and retail media advertising

21:30 Competition for audience data between retailers and LLMs

22:20 Could LLMs build offsite media businesses?

23:10 Will we see consolidation in retail media networks?

24:00 The Macy's and Amazon partnership example

24:40 Shoppable TV and CTV shopping outlook

26:00 How AI shopping might impact retail media

26:30 Moving beyond land grabs to category growth

27:20 Wrap-up and thanks

In this week's episode of Next in Media, I sat down with Ian Trombetta, SVP of Social Influencer and Content Marketing for the NFL. We dove deep into how the league is winning the creator economy by building long-term partnerships with rising stars like Kai Cenat, Sketch, and Mr. Beast. Ian shared how his team identifies talent before they blow up, creating authentic relationships that benefit both the creators and the NFL's global reach. What struck me most was how the NFL isn't just throwing money at big names - they're investing in momentum and cultural relevance, finding creators who genuinely connect with the next generation of fans.

Ian also walked me through the challenges of scaling this strategy globally, the lessons learned from his time at Red Bull and Activision, and what it takes to work with YouTube on their first-ever NFL broadcast. We discussed the NFL's massive Super Bowl creator activation - with over 150 creators on the ground in San Francisco - and how they're using everything from cooking competitions to fashion shows to showcase the culture around the game. Ian's philosophy is clear: let creators be themselves, provide them with massive value and exposure, and the authentic engagement will follow. It's a masterclass in modern brand building.

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🎯 Finding Creators Early: The NFL identifies rising talent before they explode - working with Kai Cenat for 5-6 years before he became a household name. Ian's team stays ahead of dashboards and media coverage by staying deeply connected to culture and momentum.

🤝 Long-Term Relationships Over One-Offs: The NFL's strategy focuses on building sustained partnerships with creators, offering them massive exposure through linear TV, streaming platforms, and owned channels in exchange for authentic engagement with their communities.

🌍 Global Creator Strategy: With international growth as a major priority, the NFL works with global creators like Mr. Beast and IShowSpeed, plus local creators in markets like Brazil and Dublin to introduce football to new audiences worldwide.

🏆 Super Bowl Creator Takeover: Over 150 creators will be on the ground in San Francisco for Super Bowl week, participating in cooking competitions (NFL Season), fashion shows, and cross-promotions with NBC and the Olympics - the biggest creator activation yet.

🎮 Gaming Lessons from Activision: Ian emphasized that brands underestimate the quality bar required for gaming platforms like Roblox and Fortnite - you need dedicated studios creating sustained content, not just one-time pop-ups.

📺 Let Creators Be Themselves: The NFL's philosophy is to never force creators into a box. Great content comes from letting them engage their audiences authentically while naturally weaving in the NFL, not force-feeding promotional content.

🚀 YouTube's First NFL Broadcast: Ian shared insights from working with YouTube on their inaugural NFL game broadcast, highlighting the collaboration between traditional sports media and digital platforms.

🤖 Navigating the AI Challenge: Ian acknowledged that AI's impact on content creation is evolving daily, and staying ahead of how platforms and creators use AI is one of the biggest ongoing challenges for the league.

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🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Cold open - Creator opportunities and AI evolution

00:38 Episode intro and playoff season context

01:02 Meet Ian Trombetta - SVP of Social Influencer and Marketing at NFL

01:36 Ian's role - Social media, influencer marketing, and content creation

02:52 Why the NFL needs creators beyond traditional TV

04:20 Creators as entry points for casual and younger fans

05:15 Global creator strategy - No borders with Mr. Beast and IShowSpeed

06:30 How to find the right creators for your brand

07:45 Building long-term relationships with rising creators

08:40 The Kai Cenat story - 5-6 years of partnership

10:12 The secret sauce - Getting in early and offering value

11:30 Letting creators be themselves for authentic engagement

13:05 Understanding creator momentum and culture

14:20 The Sketch example - Catching viral moments early

16:40 Live streamers and the endurance of daily content creation

18:25 Brand partnerships and measuring ROI from organic reach

20:10 Red Bull background - Building communities and content

22:30 Activision lessons - Community is everything in gaming

24:29 Parallels between gaming communities and NFL fandom

25:23 The gaming challenge - Quality bar and sustained presence

26:23 Roblox and Fortnite - You need a full studio operation

27:14 Flag football, mobile games, and the Olympics opportunity

27:26 Super Bowl preview - 150+ creators on the ground

28:12 NFL Season cooking competition and fashion shows

28:53 Cross-promotion with NBC and the Olympics

29:13 Showcasing culture and music around the NFL

29:27 Working with YouTube on their first NFL broadcast

29:59 Biggest challenge - Navigating AI in content and platforms

I never thought I'd be running a 70-employee media company built around two guys who started making Pokemon sketches in their bedroom. But here we are. When I stepped into the role of CEO of Smosh in early 2023, I wasn't just taking on a business - I was stewarding a 20-year legacy that spans five active YouTube channels, a 15-person cast, and millions of fans worldwide. My background in talent management taught me to think about creators as brands, and that's exactly how I approach Smosh today. We're not just making content - we're building a sustainable entertainment company that respects both the comedy at our core and the business fundamentals that keep us growing.

What excites me most is how we're redefining what digital-first entertainment looks like. We've invested heavily in 4K production to meet the demands of YouTube's living room experience, and we're launching ambitious projects like Hospital - a semi-scripted improv show that blends SNL-style comedy with Grey's Anatomy parody. But beyond the content itself, I'm passionate about changing how brands work with creators. Too many advertisers still treat us like we're amateurs in bedrooms, when the reality is we have the infrastructure, the talent, and the audience insights to deliver campaigns that traditional media can't match. We're proving that collaboration over competition and authenticity over scripts is the future of entertainment - and the future is happening right now.

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🚀 From Talent Manager to CEO: How working with Anthony Padilla at Press Alike and 15 years in the creator economy led to becoming CEO of a 70-employee media company with five active YouTube channels and 15 cast members.

📺 YouTube's Living Room Revolution: Why Smosh invested heavily in 4K production, upgraded cameras and servers, and how YouTube is slowly separating TV-viewing experiences from search engine content - with bold predictions about the platform's future.

🎭 Hospital Launches in January: A groundbreaking semi-scripted improv show where cast members play doctors who must swap out when they break character - blending SNL-style comedy with Grey's Anatomy parody, designed for viewers who've never heard of Smosh.

🤝 Collaboration Over Competition: Why Smosh's social team gets lunch with Mythical, their production manager grabs coffee with Dropout, and the entire creator economy thrives when digital entertainment companies share tips instead of treating each other as enemies.

💰 Owning Your CMS is Power: Lessons from the MCN era about the importance of maintaining your own content management system, controlling sales processes, and working directly with Google to craft bespoke advertising deals around major programming events.

📢 The Brand Partnership Problem: Why traditional TV commercials are terrible, how marketing agencies waste millions on creative that doesn't convert, and why Smosh only partners with brands they sincerely use - building authentic campaigns instead of following scripts.

⏰ Treat Creators Like Studios: The frustrating reality that brands still don't understand production schedules, kill fees, or professional timelines - and why the same respect given to Fox or NBC should apply to digital-first media companies.

🎯 Accessible Content Strategy: How shows like Do You Know Your Duo and Culinary Crimes are designed so new viewers can jump in without knowing Smosh's 20-year history - making great improv and comedy accessible to superfans and first-time watchers alike.

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🎥 Watch Smosh on YouTube

🔗 Follow Alessandra Catanese on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Introduction - Smosh's evolution from bedroom to boardroom

00:38 Early days of covering Smosh at Media Week

01:25 Meet Alessandra Catanese - from talent manager to CEO

02:01 The Maker Studios era and YouTube economy origins

03:14 15 years of experience leading to this role

03:43 Working with Anthony and Ian on the vision

05:37 Smosh 101 - five channels and 15 cast members

07:04 Full-fledged merch business and cast-driven products

07:51 Making content accessible without knowing the lore

08:51 Hospital show - the January improv comedy launch

09:20 SNL meets Grey's Anatomy with character breaks

10:22 YouTube on TV and the living room experience

11:05 Investing in 4K production for Summer Games

12:10 Honoring traditional TV conventions on YouTube

12:46 Predicting YouTube's TV vs search engine split

14:40 Digital and traditional becoming the same thing

15:26 The MCN era and owning your CMS

18:07 Google's special care and bespoke deals

19:14 MCN collaboration lessons and creator networks

20:11 YouTube was founded on collaboration

20:50 We don't have competition, we have collaborators

21:36 No monopoly on the internet

22:34 Growing the creator advertising economy

23:48 Educating advertisers on metrics that matter

24:19 Sincere representation philosophy with brands

24:52 Brands need smarter creative strategies

26:59 Why TV commercials are terrible today

27:40 YouTube provides instant, rich data

28:40 Working with newer vs legacy brands

29:09 Brands still see creators as bedroom amateurs

29:50 Production costs and treating creators professionally

30:29 Progress in podcast ad reads and trust

31:07 Wrap-up and final thoughts

I sat down with Evan Shapiro, the legendary media cartographer and author of the must-read substack Media War and Peace, to kick off 2026 with bold predictions about where our industry is heading. Evan didn't hold back as he unpacked the tension between AI-driven automation and the raw authenticity that makes creators so powerful. We explored how scale and reach are becoming vanity metrics, while fandom and engagement are what truly matter now. From Under Armor to Procter & Gamble, major brands are launching their own content channels and becoming creators themselves rather than just renting influencers. This isn't your typical brand content strategy, this is a fundamental shift in how marketing dollars flow.

We also tackled the elephant in the room: YouTube's dominance and whether anyone can challenge it, the explosive growth of retail media networks like Walmart and Amazon, and why traditional media companies like Disney and Warner Brothers are finally embracing platforms they once feared. Evan predicts the AI bubble will burst in 2026, not because the technology isn't valuable, but because it won't be the sexy revolution everyone's hyping. Instead, AI will improve things behind the scenes with targeting optimization and efficiency gains. Plus, we discussed the rise of social media politicians and how $2.5 billion in political ad spending could fundamentally change addressable TV advertising. This conversation is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

🎯 Engagement Over Reach: Scale and reach are now vanity metrics. The biggest shift in the creator economy is toward fandom and deep engagement rather than pure subscriber counts. Mr. Beast is the exception, creators like Amelia Dimoldenberg and Sean Evans prove that smaller, highly engaged audiences drive better business results.

🏢 Brands Become Creators: Under Armor, Procter & Gamble, and L'Oreal are launching their own content channels and production companies. Instead of hiring influencers, brands will convert ad spend into creating their own entertainment channels, following the Barbie and LEGO model of becoming lifestyle brands.

📺 Traditional Media's Creator Problem: Disney still treats YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok as brochure ware with trailers and promotional content. In 2026, major studios will finally go all-in on real content for these platforms, similar to how they eventually launched Disney+ after years of resistance.

🤖 The AI Bubble Will Burst: The hype around AI making movies, commercials, and scripts will deflate in 2026. AI's real value lies in boring but crucial improvements to targeting, optimization, and efficiency, not in replacing creative talent. Disney's $1.5 billion investment in OpenAI signals they're getting ahead of this shift.

🛍️ Retail Media's Next Wave: We're in the first half of the first inning of shoppable TV. Walmart's integration of Vizio will make them the second-largest retail media network after Amazon. This enables a whole new class of TV advertisers and unlocks budgets that never intersected with traditional media spending.

📱 Instagram and TikTok Launch CTV: Evan predicts both Instagram and TikTok will launch connected TV platforms in 2026. When Oracle takes control of TikTok in the US, a television product is inevitable. YouTube's success with shorts on TV proves short-form content can work on the big screen.

💰 YouTube's Branded Content Explosion: Branded deals embedded in YouTube videos grew over 50% in the first half of 2025, becoming the fastest-growing segment of YouTube's ad economy. With dynamic insertion launching for branded content in 2026, this will dramatically accelerate and become more scalable.

🗳️ Political Ads Transform CTV: The $2.5 billion political ecosystem will spend on hyper-local, outcome-based ads in 2026. This wave of aggressive buyers targeting at the neighborhood level will change television advertising at the genetic level and unlock the true promise of addressable TV.

🔗 Follow Evan Shapiro on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

This week on Next in Media, I sat down with Shane Atchison, CEO of Zaaz Collective, and Seth Gordon, a film director and co-founder of Zaaz. We dove into their mission to help micro and mid-level creators (those with 5,000 to 100,000 followers) think and act like media companies. With 96% of creators making minimum wage or less, Shane and Seth saw an opportunity to build a collective where creators could access the data, tools, and intelligence typically reserved for top-tier talent. They shared how Zaaz is using AI-powered analytics, audience insights, and comments-to-commerce strategies to help creators maximize their impact and earnings.

I was fascinated by their approach to solving the creator-brand disconnect. Shane explained how most creators have no idea what to charge for brand deals and often feel they get screwed on their first partnerships. Zaaz addresses this with transparent pricing data, engagement rate benchmarks, and personalized AI language models trained on each creator's unique content and audience. Seth brought a compelling perspective from the traditional entertainment world, noting how the $50 million ad model is dying and the future is much more atomized and creator-led. We also explored their plans for Q1 2025, including creator-to-creator events in Brazil and launching new tools for content transcription and multi-platform analytics.

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💡 The Creator Economy Gap: 96% of creators are making minimum wage or less despite the industry growing to $500 million by 2030 with 35% year-over-year growth in media spend.

🤝 The Collective Model: Zaaz operates as a membership-based collective where creators share anonymized data on brand deals, pricing, and engagement rates so everyone can learn what's a fair deal.

📊 Audience Intelligence: The platform unifies analytics across all social platforms in one dashboard and uses AI to analyze comments for purchase intent, brand opportunities, and genuine engagement.

💬 Comments to Commerce: Zaaz filters through thousands of comments to surface the ones that matter, like when someone asks "what shirt are you wearing?" turning those into affiliate link opportunities.

🤖 Personalized AI Language Models: Each creator gets their own AI agent trained on their content, comments, and audience data, plus access to collective intelligence from other creators' successful strategies.

🎯 Brand Discovery Done Right: Zaaz pushes dynamic media kits to discovery platforms so creators are represented with real-time data on momentum, engagement rates, and audience quality.

🎬 The Future is Atomized: Seth Gordon explained how the traditional $50 million ad campaign model is dying, and the future belongs to niche, specialized creator-led content reaching targeted audiences.

🚀 Launching in 2025: Zaaz is hosting creator-to-creator events in Brazil and the U.S., launching AI-powered content transcription tools, and helping creators who "don't realize they're creators" move into the space.

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🌐 Explore Zaaz Collective

🔗 Connect with Shane Atchison on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Cold open - Building Zaaz for creators

00:36 Introducing Shane Atchison and Seth Gordon

02:02 What is Zaaz Collective?

03:00 How the collective model works

04:32 The "I got screwed" problem for creators

06:07 Seth on protecting creators in the wild west

07:07 Who are the target creators? (5K-100K followers)

08:32 Audience analytics across platforms

10:52 Comments to commerce strategy

13:04 Brand discovery and connecting the two sides

15:19 Seth on knowing your audience

18:32 The value of micro influencers

20:23 Seth on Warner Bros and the dying $50M ad model

22:10 Streamlining media spend in the creator economy

24:51 Personalized AI language models for creators

27:00 Q1 plans: Launching in Brazil and creator events

28:29 Wrap-up and thanks

This week I had the chance to sit down with two fascinating guests who are at the forefront of bridging the worlds of digital performance marketing and traditional television advertising. Nick Fairbairn, VP of Growth Marketing at Chime, and Andy Schonfeld, CRO at Tatari, walked me through how they've transformed Chime from a pure digital-first, DTC neobank brand built on social and search into a sophisticated advertiser that runs television campaigns with the same performance mindset they apply to Meta and Google. Their partnership has evolved from small linear TV tests six years ago to a comprehensive full-funnel TV strategy that blends brand building with direct response metrics.

Nick and Andy shared incredible insights into the evolution of performance TV, from navigating the COVID-era inventory opportunities to understanding why linear TV still matters even as streaming dominates the conversation. They explained how Chime approaches television with a portfolio strategy, balancing premium reach moments like live sports with more targeted direct response placements, and why creative and media planning have become the "new targeting" in a world where precise one-to-one identification remains expensive and imperfect. We also dove into the challenges of measuring TV in a fragmented landscape, the role of AI-driven creative, and whether shoppable TV will actually move the needle or remain a marginal innovation.

Here's a shorter version:

📺 From Walled Gardens to TV: Chime shifted from 80% Facebook/Google spend to treating TV as a performance channel, not just brand awareness.

🚀 COVID's Opportunity: The pandemic opened premium TV inventory at discounts as major advertisers exited, accelerating streaming adoption for performance marketers.

🎯 Performance TV Defined: Measuring full-funnel impact from awareness to account openings using spike attribution, MMM, and Tatari's platform.

⚡ Linear Still Works: Live sports and big moments deliver results at 75% off rate card for brands buying real-time through platforms like Tatari.

💰 The DR Valley of Death: Pure direct response TV hits limits, requiring investment in premium brand moments with longer attribution windows for growth.

🤖 AI and Creative Over Targeting: Paying 2-3x CPMs for precise targeting isn't worth it—creative and smart placement beat perfect identity resolution.

📱 Shoppable TV Reality: Interactive ads and QR codes show promise but remain marginal in business impact; AI-generated creative variations offer more upside.

🔗 Learn more about Chime

📊 Explore Tatari's performance TV platform

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

00:00 Opening - Performance TV and Chime's evolution

00:55 Introducing Nick Fairbairn (VP Growth Marketing at Chime)

01:00 Introducing Andy Schonfeld (CRO at Tatari)

01:10 Chime's historic media mix - born on social and search

02:00 The classic DTC journey - 80% in Facebook and Google

02:20 Bringing a portfolio approach to acquisition

02:40 Meeting Tatari and starting the TV journey (2019)

03:00 Initial barriers - cost, creative, and optimization concerns

03:40 Running TV like Meta from day one

04:10 Linear focus in the early days (2016-2019)

04:40 Small doses of TV with incrementality and attribution

05:00 How COVID accelerated streaming adoption

05:40 Major brands exiting created inventory opportunities

06:00 Fire sale opportunities on premium inventory

06:30 Nick's resistance to streaming at first

07:00 The linear purist becomes a 50/50 believer

07:40 Defining performance in TV advertising

08:20 Full funnel measurement - awareness to enrollments

09:00 Getting efficient on walled gardens to fund brand TV

09:40 The DR valley of death explained

10:10 How performance TV measurement has evolved

11:00 Starting lower funnel, then expanding upward

11:40 The $10-15M threshold where DR hits limits

12:10 Going premium - live sports and big moments

12:40 The commitment required to unlock TV's power

13:10 TV driving IPOs and acquisitions

13:40 Helping startups scale through TV

14:00 The state of CTV today - better or more complex?

14:40 Linear vs streaming buying challenges

15:10 Cost prohibitive targeting on streaming

15:50 Creative differences between linear and streaming

16:20 What's missing - the dashboard fantasy

17:00 Why linear still matters - 50% of viewership

17:40 Yankees playoff game example - 75% discount

18:30 You can't buy big moments programmatically

19:10 Relationships still matter in TV buying

19:50 Programmatic CTV limitations

20:30 Media mix modeling and holistic measurement

21:30 Identity and targeting in TV - does it matter?

22:10 Creative as the new targeting

22:50 Why paying 2-3x CPM for precision isn't worth it

23:30 You can't measure it all - need multiple approaches

24:00 Shoppable TV and interactive ads - bullish or not?

24:40 QR codes and send-to-phone - still marginal

25:10 Pause ads opening new real estate

25:40 Amazon remote ads and early testing

26:00 Dynamic AI creative - 100 variations vs two

26:30 Local market creative optimization

27:00 Something's brewing with device and TV convergence

27:30 Wrap-up and thanks

I had the incredible opportunity to bring together some of the brightest minds in the creator economy for an evening of candid conversation about where this industry is headed. From ad tech innovations to creator authenticity, we covered the full spectrum of what it takes to turn creator content into scalable, revenue-generating partnerships. Conor McKenna from Luma and Zoe Soon from the IAB kicked things off with a macro view of the space, discussing how fragmented media is creating massive opportunities for technology to step in. We explored why brands are shifting budgets at unprecedented rates, with Unilever committing 50% of marketing spend to creator-related initiatives.

The evening featured deep dives into brand integration strategies with Ali Parish from Blue Hour Studios and Jeremy Stewart from VuePlanner, followed by an eye-opening discussion with Arthur Leopolod from Agentio about how AI and automation are revolutionizing creator advertising. Perhaps most compelling was hearing directly from Sydney Jo, the creator behind the viral Group Chat series, and her manager Haley Friedman from Made By All about the reality of building a creator business. From navigating brand negotiations to maintaining creative authenticity, this conversation revealed both the opportunities and challenges facing the next generation of digital storytellers.

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🚀 The Walled Garden Shift: Meta and Google are evolving from social platforms to entertainment platforms, opening up competitive dynamics that allow ad tech to capture margin in the previously closed creator ecosystem.

📈 Explosive Growth Trajectory: The creator economy is projected to reach $37 billion this year, growing 400% faster than average digital media, with Agentio raising $40 million to help brands scale from $50K to over $1 million in creator spend without additional bandwidth.

🎯 The Authenticity Challenge: Brands are treating creators like Hollywood storytellers but expecting them to perform like programmatic ad units, creating a disconnect that requires better infrastructure, measurement, and understanding of the creator-first approach.

🤖 AI as the Creative Multiplier: While AI enables scalability and reduces production costs to zero, the real winners will be creators with established trust and parasocial relationships, as audiences increasingly seek authentic voices in a sea of AI-generated content.

💡 Partnership Over Performance: Long-term brand relationships like Sydney's multi-season deal with Hilton outperform transactional campaigns, with brands that engage in comments and understand social media culture seeing significantly better integration and results.

📊 The Measurement Gap: Over 50% of US buyers consider creators a must-buy (second only to search and social), yet the industry lacks standardized metrics beyond engagement and reach, requiring brands to rely heavily on first-party data and brand-specific goals.

🎬 Platform Dynamics: YouTube and Meta provide strong creator support with dedicated reps, while TikTok remains uniquely difficult to work with despite its massive scale, and creators intentionally maintain cross-platform presence to avoid giving control to any single platform.

⚡ From Viral to Viable: Sydney's journey from 250K to 1.7 million followers in one week (and a Today Show appearance) reveals both the opportunity and challenge of monetizing virality, highlighting the critical importance of having the right management team to navigate brand negotiations and maintain creative control.

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🌐 Learn more about VuePlanner

🌐 Learn more about Agentio

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Opening remarks and industry momentum

01:10 Introducing Connor McKenney and Zoe Soon

03:00 The ad tech opportunity in creator economy

05:40 Walled gardens becoming distribution platforms

07:00 Why brands are shifting to creators

08:30 The infrastructure and measurement challenge

12:00 AI and algorithm control concerns

13:00 Standardization vs. authenticity debate

17:10 Ali Perish and Jeremy Stewart on brand integration

18:40 Evolution of Blue Hour Studios

20:40 View Planner's role in creator measurement

24:00 YouTube Creator Partnerships Hub

26:00 The lifetime value of creators

28:00 Arthur Leopold introduces Agentio

30:00 The $10 billion to $800 billion opportunity

32:00 How Agentio automates creator advertising

35:30 Bidding model and AI strategy creation

37:40 Creators as micro creative agencies

40:00 The Cambrian explosion of AI creativity

42:40 Sydney and Hailey from Made By All

44:00 Sydney's viral Group Chat origin story

46:30 Navigating early brand deals

49:00 The importance of saying no

51:40 Long-term brand relationships

54:00 When brands don't understand social media

56:00 Working with platform partners

58:30 Advice for brands and creators

01:00:00 Closing thoughts and thank you

I sat down with Tusar Barik, the SVP of Marketing at the New York Times, who's just past his first year in this newly created role. We explored how the Times has transformed from a traditional newspaper into a multifaceted media company spanning news, games, podcasts, cooking, sports, and more. Tusar leads a comprehensive team managing everything from measurement and data insights to product marketing, editorial advertising opportunities, and traditional communications. What struck me most was learning that the Times now reaches over 150 million registered users with 50 to 100 million weekly engagers, seeing the highest growth among Gen Z adults and audiences in the Midwest and South. The digital advertising business delivered over 20% year-over-year growth, proving that quality journalism and a direct relationship with readers creates a powerhouse advertising platform.

We dove deep into how the Times is meeting consumers where they are through video-forward strategies, producing over 75 hours of professional video monthly and transforming podcasts into multimodal shows available as both audio and video. Tusar shared insights on their Brand Match generative AI product that delivers 30% improvements in both click-through rates and brand lift by intelligently matching advertiser briefs with the right content. We explored how games like Wordle have been part of the Times' DNA since the 1940s crossword, how The Daily creates deeply personal connections with millions, and why the Times sees itself as a solar system with news at the center. The conversation revealed a company that's successfully balanced subscription-first strategy with a thriving advertising business by staying true to its mission while innovating how it reaches and serves audiences.

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• 📈 Unprecedented Scale & Growth: The Times now has over 12 million subscribers, 150 million registered users, and 50-100 million weekly engagers, with the highest growth coming from Gen Z adults and the Midwest/South, driving 20% digital advertising growth year-over-year.
• 🤖 AI-Powered Brand Match: Tusar revealed their generative AI product that ingests advertiser RFPs and dynamically matches campaigns with the right content as it's produced, delivering 30%+ improvements in both click-through rates and brand lift.
• 🎥 Video-First Evolution: The Times produces over 75 hours of professional video content monthly and has transformed audio podcasts into multimodal shows, recently launching a Watch tab in the app that creates new premium advertising inventory.
• 🎮 Games as Core DNA: Gaming has been part of the Times since the 1940s crossword during World War II. Today, over 2,000 people per minute share their Wordle scores, and games advertising drives 21% awareness lift and 30%+ brand consideration growth when combined with news.
• 🎙️ The Daily's Emotional Connection: Tusar shared a touching story about how Michael Barbaro's voice became a source of comfort for a reader who listened every morning while visiting her ailing father in the hospital for months, illustrating the deep personal relationships the Times builds.
• 📊 Measurement Playbook Approach: The Times developed a comprehensive measurement strategy offering everything from MMM models for large advertisers to trending metrics for smaller campaigns, with solutions packages that span audio, video, and display inventory.
• 🌐 Portfolio Beyond News: The Times has evolved into a solar system with news at the center, expanding into The Athletic (largest sports newsroom globally), Cooking, Games, Wirecutter, and more, each creating unique advertising entry points and audience segments.
• 💼 Programmatic Done Right: The Times views programmatic as workflow pipes to reduce friction, not as a race to the bottom on CPMs. They've invested significantly in the past 18 months while maintaining quality standards and brand safety for advertisers.

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🔗 Follow Tusar Barrick on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Elemental TV ad

00:48 Introduction and guest overview

01:50 Welcome to Next in Media

02:03 Tor's role and first year at the Times

04:19 The Times' evolution beyond news

05:07 Core mission and solar system approach

06:25 Audience scale: 150M registered users

07:39 20% digital ad growth and earnings

08:58 AI and Brand Match product

10:46 Brand Match performance results

11:31 Podcasting and The Daily's impact

13:06 Michael Barbaro's emotional connection story

14:02 Audio and video evolution

15:31 Video production stats and strategy

16:14 Navigating agency relationships

17:44 Solutions-based approach to advertising

18:01 Measurement playbook and strategies

19:47 Outcome-based measurement approach

20:59 Sabio ad

21:05 Talent and newsletter strategy

23:48 Gaming portfolio and DNA since 1940s

26:03 The Athletic and portfolio expansion

27:04 Games advertising opportunities

28:28 Programmatic strategy and philosophy

30:29 Video strategy and Watch tab launch

33:49 Video advertising opportunities

34:12 Closing thoughts and wrap-up

34:24 Outro and thanks

Summary:
This week on Next in Media, Mike Shields talks with Erick Opeka, President & Chief Strategy Officer at Cineverse and board member at the startup Micro Co. Opeka breaks down how short-form “micro-dramas”—already attracting hundreds of millions of daily viewers in China—are taking shape in the U.S. and why they could become a $20 billion category.

He explains how Cineverse’s 22 streaming services, proprietary Matchpoint technology, and deep ad-tech stack position it to lead this wave. From Quibi’s missteps to AI-driven efficiencies, Opeka shares how the next generation of vertical video could transform storytelling, advertising, and the very idea of television.

• 🎥 Cineverse 101: Operates a full-service film & TV studio plus 22 streaming platforms with under 200 employees—powered by its Matchpoint operating system.
• 💡 Tech meets storytelling: Built its own ad-tech stack (C360) and data tools to monetize efficiently while controlling creative output.
• 📱 Rise of micro-dramas: Already a $1 billion U.S. market and mainstream in China, drawing 600 million daily viewers.
• 🧠 Why it works: Each 3-minute story triggers anticipation loops in the brain—more rewarding than endless scrolling.
• 🌍 Cultural crossover: Format expected to reach 13–15% of all video consumption at maturity—larger than the entire U.S. theatrical market.
• 🧩 Creative power team: Lloyd Braun, Susan Rovner, and Jana Winograde join Opeka to build a U.S.-based micro-drama studio.
• 📺 Beyond romance: Expanding from steamy love stories to game shows, thrillers, and reality formats.
• 💰 Business model: Starts with premium and pay-per-view, evolves toward ad-supported models—echoing the broader streaming trend.
• 🤝 Brand opportunity: Advertisers aren’t yet in but white-space potential mirrors early anime and TikTok stages.
• 🔮 Looking ahead: Launch slated for Spring 2026, combining platform tech + top-tier creatives to redefine mobile storytelling.
   

• Follow Erick Opeka on LinkedIn 🔗 
• Learn more about Cineverse → cineverse.com
• ⭐ Rate & Review to help more listeners discover the show
• 🎧Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts
   

00:00 – Intro and Erick Opeka’s role at Cineverse
01:00 – How Cineverse runs 22 streaming services with Matchpoint
04:00 – Ad-tech integration and C360 audience platform
05:00 – The micro-drama trend and China’s 600 million viewers
07:30 – Why micro-dramas hook audiences psychologically
09:30 – U.S. market potential and viewer behavior
11:00 – Genres evolving beyond romance
13:00 – Demographics and comparison to K-drama boom
14:30 – Business models: subscription vs ad-supported
17:00 – Early lessons from China and U.S. adoption curve
18:00 – Formation of Micro Co and the creative team
21:00 – Building a U.S. platform with better UX and production quality
26:00 – Quibi comparisons and why this time is different
29:00 – Timeline for launch and platform strategy
32:00 – Brand building and sustainable growth vs CAC race
34:00 – CTV integration and cross-screen potential
35:40 – Advertising ecosystem and brand interest
37:40 – TERRIFIER franchise and Cineverse’s studio approach
40:00 – Final thoughts on innovation and industry future

Why Brands Should Stop Avoiding News with Jack Marshall

Brands have long shied away from advertising in news, fearing controversy or association with “negative” stories; but that hesitation is costing them results. This week, Mike Shields talks with Jack Marshall, Head of News at DoubleVerify, about why avoiding news is a missed opportunity and how advertisers can take a smarter, more nuanced approach to brand safety and suitability.

Jack shares insights from DV’s research, which shows that news content drives 16% more engagement than non-news media, and explains how AI-driven tools are helping advertisers target responsibly while supporting trusted journalism. The conversation covers the shifting perceptions of news advertising, AI’s role in brand safety, and why authentic reporting may soon stand out as the antidote to AI-generated “slop.”

Highlights:

📰 The News Opportunity – DV data shows that news content generates 16% more engagement than non-news, yet many advertisers still block it.

🔒 Brand Safety vs. Suitability – Safety covers truly unsafe content (malware, spam, copyright infringement); suitability is where nuanced strategy is needed.

🧠 Educating the Industry – Jack’s role includes helping advertisers, agencies, and publishers understand how to unlock news environments safely.

🛠️ Smarter Tools, Less Risk – DV’s AI-driven keyword optimization helps reduce false blocks and allows brands to use a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer.

⚙️ Product Innovation – DV’s News Accelerator initiative and contextual categories like News+ and News+ Light make it easier to advertise in quality news at scale.

📉 Myth-busting Fear – Consumers can separate ads from content; most don’t associate a brand with a nearby tough headline.

🤖 AI & Trust – As AI-generated misinformation spreads, real journalism becomes more valuable — “the real connections stand out among the weirdness.”

💬 Shift in Attitude – Advertisers are realizing they’ve been too conservative and are reopening budgets for trusted news environments.

🪶 Publishers Adapting – From the New York Times’ strong ad growth to the rise of news creators, publishers are learning to leverage trust, voice, and engagement.

🌍 Future Outlook – Expect closer ties between news brands and influencers, merging authenticity with scale in ad models.

Resources and links:

🔗 Follow Jack Marshall on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackmarshall/

🌐 Learn more about DoubleVerify’s News Accelerator → doubleverify.com

Explore Sabio’s platform: sabioctv.com

⭐ Rate & Review to help more listeners discover the show

🎧Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

Chapters:

00:00 Research shows advertisers miss out by avoiding news

00:40 Introducing Jack Marshall, Head of News at DoubleVerify

02:00 Why DV created a Head of News role

03:20 Educating advertisers and publishers on news investment

04:50 The CMO vs. junior buyer disconnect

06:00 Brand safety vs. brand suitability explained

07:30 When it’s reasonable to exclude content — and when it’s not

08:20 Modern tools vs. blunt keyword blocking

09:20 Overgeneralizations and nuanced strategies

10:00 The myth of “negative adjacency”

11:10 How consumers actually perceive ads near news

12:10 DV research: news drives 16% higher engagement

13:30 Why advertisers should rethink “news avoidance”

15:40 The DV News Accelerator and new AI keyword tools

17:10 Cutting bloated keyword lists with automation

18:30 Helping brands use a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer

19:30 Making nuance easy for media buyers

20:20 Is the pendulum swinging back toward openness?

21:30 AI slop and why real news stands out

23:00 Publishers finding optimism amid change

24:20 Diversifying revenue and growing brand trust

25:20 The rise of news creators and influencer-style partnerships

26:00 Closing thoughts — supporting real journalism and connection