In this episode of Next in Media, I sit down live at the Kochava Summit in Sandpoint, Idaho, with Charles Manning, founder and CEO of Kochava. We go deep on one of the most pressing questions facing the industry right now: how profound is the shift to agentic advertising and AI-driven workflows? Charles argues it is not a decade-long evolution like programmatic was. It is breathtakingly faster, and the companies that understand how to use their first-party data as a competitive kernel, rather than leaking it to the walled gardens, are the ones that will come out ahead. He draws a compelling analogy: if programmatic changed the auction, AI is about to change the workflow.

We also dig into Kochava's CTV journey, from its mobile app roots to building measurement tools adopted by LG, Samsung, Vizio, and Roku, and how the view-and-do combo between the TV screen and the mobile device is creating powerful new outcome-based measurement opportunities for brands. Charles breaks down what holding companies should fear (and fix), why the ad tech supply chain is due for serious consolidation, and why he predicts a wave of take-privates and roll-ups followed by a bonanza of public offerings over the next two years. He also introduces Station One, Kochava's integrative AI hub that acts like a Slack for AI workflows, designed to help teams transform how they work without giving up control of their data.

⚡ AI vs. Programmatic: Charles explains why the shift to agentic advertising is moving breathtakingly faster than programmatic did. While programmatic took over a decade to fully reshape the auction, AI is set to transform the entire workflow within the next 16 months.

🔒 Protect Your Data: Charles identifies the two biggest risks brands face in the AI era. First, leaking proprietary data to platforms like Meta and making them smarter without benefiting your own organization. Second, failing to develop a unique "how" that cannot be replicated when everyone has access to the same AI tools.

📺 CTV Measurement Evolution: Kochava's Atlas Performance product now powers CTV measurement for LG, Samsung, Vizio, and Roku by connecting the view on the television screen with the action on the mobile device, giving brands a clear picture of real business outcomes from their CTV spend.

🤖 Station One, a Slack for AI: Charles introduces Kochava's Station One platform, an integrative AI hub that lets teams connect models, codify skills, build knowledge bases, and containerize workflows into shareable workspaces, all while keeping data ownership firmly in the hands of the brand.

📉 Ad Tech Consolidation Is Coming: Charles predicts a significant collapse in the ad tech supply chain, with SSPs and DSPs already moving into each other's territory. He also foresees a wave of take-privates and roll-ups over the next 16 months, as companies use the cover of private ownership to restructure for the AI era, followed by a major IPO bonanza.

💼 The Future Workforce: As AI handles more of the analytical grunt work, Charles argues the most valuable skill in the industry is shifting away from data science and toward clear communication. The ability to articulate your goals to an AI model is becoming the defining talent of the next generation of media professionals.

🌐 Explore Kochava and learn more about Atlas Performance and Station One

🔗 Follow Charles Manning on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

00:00 Cold open - AI disruption and the next 16 months

01:00 Welcome and introducing Charles Manning of Kochava

01:20 Revisiting a past conversation and what has changed

01:45 Setting the stage - agentic advertising and the metaverse PTSD problem

02:20 The next decade is really the next 16 months

03:10 How fast is this vs. the programmatic shift?

03:50 MCP, APIs, and how AI wraps the workflow

05:20 Machine learning from reach optimization to business outcomes

06:10 From post-campaign briefs to real-time workflow automation

07:20 Why big platforms like Meta and Google got even stronger with AI

08:00 The two biggest risks brands face in the AI era

09:00 The "how" is as important as the "what" - competitive differentiation

09:50 Can agencies avoid being commoditized by AI?

10:20 Vertical AI and why domain expertise matters

12:00 Measurement as an odometer vs. measurement as a decision engine

13:20 The racing clutch analogy - agile measurement for agile goals

14:00 Who fills the seats next? The shift from data scientists to communicators

15:00 Tasks that get reallocated and skills that become more valuable

16:00 How far away is autonomous agentic media buying?

16:30 Guardrails, budget constraints, and agent managers

17:10 Introducing Station One - Kochava's AI workflow hub

18:10 How teams transition from human workflows to AI-assisted execution

19:00 Kochava's CTV journey - from mobile app roots to the living room

20:10 The 80-inch mobile device and why OEMs saw the pattern

21:20 Why OEMs pushed back and how Atlas Performance was born

22:10 LG, Samsung, Vizio, Roku - how they became Kochava customers

23:00 Is CTV performance TV? How should we measure it?

23:40 The view-and-do combo - TV impressions and mobile actions

24:10 QSR and loyalty programs - CTV driving real consumer behavior

25:00 Why AI optimization has not hit CTV the way it has Meta and Google

26:00 Station One as the connective tissue for CTV and the broader ecosystem

27:20 Will more ad dollars flow to television? Charles says yes, and soon

28:30 Audience Q&A - how to prove CTV incrementality to your CFO

29:00 The Machine Zone story and what it taught Charles about media mix

31:30 Why media mix modeling finally works in the AI era

32:10 What happens to ad tech? The daisy chain gets disrupted

33:00 SSPs and DSPs are already moving into each other's territory

34:00 More money in media, less ad tax - where the dollars go next

35:00 Premium inventory, exclusive access, and the sports betting parallel

36:10 IO-level programmatic guaranteed - a bold prediction

37:00 The biggest obstacle ahead - take-privates, roll-ups, and an IPO bonanza

38:30 Wrap-up and closing thoughts

This week on Next in Media, I sat down with Matt Spiegel, EVP of Marketing Solutions Growth Strategies at TransUnion, to unpack one of the most pressing questions in advertising right now: what's actually changed since cookies started disappearing and privacy laws started piling up? And just as importantly, what hasn't changed? Matt brings a refreshingly practical perspective to the conversation, explaining how disconnected data infrastructure remains the biggest obstacle for most brands, even as everyone races to adopt AI-powered marketing. He breaks down why walled gardens still have an inherent advantage, how signal loss is forcing marketers to rethink their strategies, and why the industry's obsession with the "easy button" might be holding progress back.

We also tackled some uncomfortable truths about where the industry is headed. Matt shared his thoughts on agentic advertising and whether bots will really replace media planners, the noisy MarTech landscape that's overwhelming CMOs, and why he believes the next economic downturn could trigger massive layoffs in marketing and advertising. Throughout our conversation, Matt emphasized that while the tools and technology are evolving rapidly, the fundamentals of good marketing haven't changed. It's about understanding your customers, connecting your data, and applying that intelligence at scale. This is a conversation for anyone trying to make sense of the chaos in modern marketing, wondering how to navigate identity resolution in a post-cookie world, or just trying to figure out which AI tools are actually worth the hype.

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🔌 The Infrastructure Problem: Most brands lack connected data ecosystems. Their CRM, transaction records, and marketing databases exist in silos, making it nearly impossible to achieve the precision marketing everyone's chasing.

🏰 Walled Gardens Still Win: Large platforms have a scaled, dimensional view of consumers that few brands can match. The "easy button" appeal is real, but it comes at the cost of transparency and cross-platform measurement.

🤖 AI Won't Replace Humans (Yet): Agentic advertising is coming and will automate significant portions of media buying, but Matt believes we'll keep humans in the loop. The idea that bots will fully control everything is overdone, at least for now.

📊 Data Hygiene Still Matters: Simple things like ensuring "Matt" and "Matthew" are recognized as the same person remain real obstacles. Many organizations are still working through basic data cleaning before they can even think about advanced AI applications.

📉 Layoffs Are Coming: Matt predicts the next economic downturn will trigger massive job losses in marketing and advertising as automation takes over manual tasks. New roles will emerge, but there will be a painful transition period.

📈 The Measurement Mess: Between attribution debates, walled garden metrics, and inconsistent cross-platform views, CMOs are struggling to prove ROI. The complexity isn't just technical, it's political inside organizations.

🎯 Outcomes Over Tactics: Despite all the noise around cookies, signal loss, and AI, the fundamentals haven't changed. Great marketing still comes down to understanding consumers holistically and applying that intelligence strategically.

⚡ It's a Noisy Time: Marketers are juggling CIOs demanding new tech, CFOs questioning results, platforms promising exclusive deals, and measurement reports that don't add up. It's chaotic, but navigable with the right analytical mindset.

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🌐 Learn more about TransUnion Marketing Solutions

🔗 Follow Matt Spiegel on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Intro -- Consumer insights and AI limitations

00:35 The complexity of modern marketing

01:00 Episode introduction and Matt Spiegel

01:34 Where we are in the identity and data landscape

02:15 The marketer's challenge -- Disconnected data

03:45 Why data infrastructure is the core problem

05:20 The reality of data hygiene issues

06:30 Signal loss and privacy regulations

07:45 Platform advantages in identity resolution

09:10 Walled gardens vs transparency

11:00 The programmatic ecosystem revisited

12:40 How agencies are investing in data capabilities

14:20 The measurement and attribution challenge

16:00 AI's impact on marketing decisions

17:30 Why consumer insights still matter

18:45 The current state of MarTech noise

20:15 Startup consolidation and hype cycles

21:50 Will agentic advertising replace media planners?

23:20 Keeping humans in the loop

24:40 The coming wave of marketing layoffs

26:10 New opportunities emerging from automation

27:30 The complexity brands face daily

28:50 CMO tenure and pressure

29:40 Final thoughts and wrap-up

In this episode, I sit down with David Freeman, who just launched Kynetic Media Partners after an incredible 15-year run at CAA. David was one of the first executives I knew who truly understood the business impact of digital talent and the creator economy - back when most people in Hollywood were still asking "why do you care about that?" He walks us through his journey from starting CAA's digital department in 2010 (when they were the "redheaded stepchildren" of the agency) to today, where the creator economy is tracking toward $37 billion by 2027. Now he's building the infrastructure to turn fandom into real enterprise value.

We dive deep into how tech companies have become Hollywood, the rise of mega-creators like MrBeast who are building billion-dollar businesses, and how AI is about to revolutionize content creation in ways we can barely imagine. David shares insights on creators who are successfully building mini media empires (think Dude Perfect, Rhett & Link, Jesser), the critical need for proper operators and infrastructure around talent, and why we're likely to see consolidation and big exits in the creator space. It's a masterclass in understanding where media, culture, and commerce are headed.

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🚀 The Big Leap: After 15 years building and leading CAA's digital talent division, David left to launch Kynetic Media Partners - focused on turning fandom into enterprise value with infrastructure, strategic capital, and expertise.

💡 From Stepchildren to Stars: In 2010, digital departments were "redheaded stepchildren" at agencies. Today, the creator economy is tracking toward $37 billion by 2027, and tech companies have become Hollywood.

🎬 The MrBeast Phenomenon: David breaks down how Jimmy Donaldson built a billion-dollar business with deeper engagement than traditional media, and why he represents the future of entertainment.

🤖 AI Revolution Ahead: The potential for AI to transform content creation is massive - from animation that rivals Pixar to community-driven development cycles that release new episodes in weeks, not years.

🏢 Mini Media Empires: Creators like Dude Perfect (with their $100M investment), Rhett & Link, Dahr Mann, and Jesser are building real media companies - but success requires proper operators, not just talent.

📊 Infrastructure Matters: The biggest gap in the creator economy isn't talent or fandom - it's the lack of infrastructure, operators, and strategic capital to help creators scale into sustainable businesses.

🔮 Consolidation Coming: Expect to see legacy media companies acquire creator businesses, channel aggregation (like old cable models), and agencies potentially hosting their own upfronts with talent networks.

🎯 Where Culture Lives: The creator space isn't just about entertainment - it's where culture is being born, and brands need to understand that talent is now distribution.

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🔗 Follow David Freeman on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Cold open - Keyman risk and YouTube dominance

00:55 Episode intro - David Freeman and Kynetic Media Ventures

01:24 Meet David Freeman, founder of Kynetic Media Ventures

01:49 Why David left CAA after 15 years

02:26 The creator economy arbitrage moment

04:00 Turning fandom into enterprise value

05:30 The evolution from digital talent to creator economy

06:32 How tech became Hollywood

07:50 YouTube vs traditional talent discovery

08:30 Legacy media in the early innings of YouTube

09:00 Madison Avenue grapples with YouTube's TV dominance

10:20 Creators must build IP and brands

11:30 Netflix vs YouTube - the talent war

13:00 IShowSpeed's Speed Goes Pro - ownership over distribution

14:30 Mr. Beast and the Amazon deal

16:10 Amazon's creator strategy beyond Prime

18:20 Making creator partnerships easier at scale

20:00 CMOs admit 20-30% of spend lacks attribution

21:20 The most dynamic time in media history

23:20 AI hype vs AI reality

25:00 AI as a tool controlled by humans

26:00 The CAA Vault and name, image, likeness

27:10 How many creators can become media moguls?

28:20 Building teams - good operators win

30:00 Will legacy media buy creator companies?

31:10 The rebirth of networks and agency upfronts

32:10 Wrap-up and what's next

In this episode of Next in Media, I sit down with Kiri Masters, host of the Retail Media Breakfast Club podcast, to explore the biggest shifts happening in retail media advertising. We dive into the recent announcement about ads coming to ChatGPT and what that means for brands trying to meet consumers where they are. Kiri shares her perspective on whether AI-powered shopping will truly disrupt the retail media landscape - and why she's optimistic that LLM-based ads could actually be more relevant and less annoying than traditional formats. We also unpack the Walmart-Google partnership and discuss what it signals about the future of conversational commerce.

Beyond the AI conversation, we tackle some of the industry's most pressing questions. Will we see consolidation in retail media networks this year? Can shoppable TV finally gain traction? And what happens when offsite retail media faces competition from platforms with their own transactional data? Kiri brings both historical context - including a fascinating story about Piggly Wiggly's self-service revolution - and forward-looking insights about how brands and retailers need to collaborate differently. Whether you're a marketer navigating this space or just curious about where AI and commerce intersect, this conversation offers a clear-eyed look at what's real, what's hype, and what's coming next.

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🤖 Ads in AI Assistants: Kiri explains why she's optimistic that ads in LLMs like ChatGPT could actually enhance the user experience rather than detract from it - as long as they're contextually relevant and leverage the deep personal insights these platforms have.

🛒 The Walmart-Google Partnership: Why retailers want to maintain control as the merchant of record even as they experiment with AI-powered shopping surfaces, and what this means for the competitive landscape between retailers and tech giants.

📊 Amazon's Retail Media Dominance: How Amazon has trained brands to expect exceptional reporting and data-driven insights, creating a high bar that other retailers struggle to match - and why CFOs love the platform's transparency.

🔄 Consolidation is Coming: With over 250 retail media networks globally but brands only wanting to work with 5-7 partners, Kiri predicts we'll see more partnerships like Macy's and Amazon this year as the market rationalizes.

💡 The Piggly Wiggly Lesson: A fascinating historical parallel about how the first self-service grocery store in 1916 got consumers to change behavior by passing savings directly to them - a lesson for how AI shopping might need to work.

⚠️ Offsite Media at Risk: If AI-powered shopping takes off, offsite retail media networks could face serious competition as LLMs gain access to transaction and intent data that retailers previously controlled.

🎯 Back to Category Growth: Kiri advocates for retailers and brands to move beyond performance-focused land grabs and return to collaborative trade marketing strategies that grow entire categories together.

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🎙️ Follow Kiri Masters and subscribe to Retail Media Breakfast Club

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Introduction - Ads in AI assistants

00:40 This week on Next in Media

01:00 Meet Kiri Masters of Retail Media Breakfast Club

01:40 Ads coming to ChatGPT and conversational search

02:10 How brands follow consumers to new platforms

03:30 Will AI commerce disrupt retail media?

04:00 Will ads in LLMs work like Google and Facebook?

04:40 The importance of trust in AI assistants

05:00 Why AI ads could be better than traditional ads

06:00 Context and relevance in LLM advertising

07:00 The trust equation in conversational AI

08:00 Understanding AI ads won't necessarily suck

08:10 Walmart and Google partnership announcement

08:30 Are people ready to shop through AI interfaces?

09:00 Building trust through repeated exposure to LLMs

09:40 Story time - buying an iPod on eBay in 1999

11:00 Testing Instacart on ChatGPT

11:40 Sao CTV ad

12:40 Why Walmart partnered with Google

13:20 Retailers want to remain merchant of record

14:40 Can every retailer integrate with AI platforms?

15:20 Consumer choice and retailer selection criteria

16:00 The Piggly Wiggly story - self-service revolution

17:00 Consumer behavior change requires value proposition

17:40 State of retail media today

18:20 Amazon's dominance in retail media

19:20 Offsite retail media and in-store opportunities

20:00 How AI threatens offsite retail media networks

20:40 Open web and retail media advertising

21:30 Competition for audience data between retailers and LLMs

22:20 Could LLMs build offsite media businesses?

23:10 Will we see consolidation in retail media networks?

24:00 The Macy's and Amazon partnership example

24:40 Shoppable TV and CTV shopping outlook

26:00 How AI shopping might impact retail media

26:30 Moving beyond land grabs to category growth

27:20 Wrap-up and thanks

In this week's episode of Next in Media, I sat down with Ian Trombetta, SVP of Social Influencer and Content Marketing for the NFL. We dove deep into how the league is winning the creator economy by building long-term partnerships with rising stars like Kai Cenat, Sketch, and Mr. Beast. Ian shared how his team identifies talent before they blow up, creating authentic relationships that benefit both the creators and the NFL's global reach. What struck me most was how the NFL isn't just throwing money at big names - they're investing in momentum and cultural relevance, finding creators who genuinely connect with the next generation of fans.

Ian also walked me through the challenges of scaling this strategy globally, the lessons learned from his time at Red Bull and Activision, and what it takes to work with YouTube on their first-ever NFL broadcast. We discussed the NFL's massive Super Bowl creator activation - with over 150 creators on the ground in San Francisco - and how they're using everything from cooking competitions to fashion shows to showcase the culture around the game. Ian's philosophy is clear: let creators be themselves, provide them with massive value and exposure, and the authentic engagement will follow. It's a masterclass in modern brand building.

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🎯 Finding Creators Early: The NFL identifies rising talent before they explode - working with Kai Cenat for 5-6 years before he became a household name. Ian's team stays ahead of dashboards and media coverage by staying deeply connected to culture and momentum.

🤝 Long-Term Relationships Over One-Offs: The NFL's strategy focuses on building sustained partnerships with creators, offering them massive exposure through linear TV, streaming platforms, and owned channels in exchange for authentic engagement with their communities.

🌍 Global Creator Strategy: With international growth as a major priority, the NFL works with global creators like Mr. Beast and IShowSpeed, plus local creators in markets like Brazil and Dublin to introduce football to new audiences worldwide.

🏆 Super Bowl Creator Takeover: Over 150 creators will be on the ground in San Francisco for Super Bowl week, participating in cooking competitions (NFL Season), fashion shows, and cross-promotions with NBC and the Olympics - the biggest creator activation yet.

🎮 Gaming Lessons from Activision: Ian emphasized that brands underestimate the quality bar required for gaming platforms like Roblox and Fortnite - you need dedicated studios creating sustained content, not just one-time pop-ups.

📺 Let Creators Be Themselves: The NFL's philosophy is to never force creators into a box. Great content comes from letting them engage their audiences authentically while naturally weaving in the NFL, not force-feeding promotional content.

🚀 YouTube's First NFL Broadcast: Ian shared insights from working with YouTube on their inaugural NFL game broadcast, highlighting the collaboration between traditional sports media and digital platforms.

🤖 Navigating the AI Challenge: Ian acknowledged that AI's impact on content creation is evolving daily, and staying ahead of how platforms and creators use AI is one of the biggest ongoing challenges for the league.

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🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Cold open - Creator opportunities and AI evolution

00:38 Episode intro and playoff season context

01:02 Meet Ian Trombetta - SVP of Social Influencer and Marketing at NFL

01:36 Ian's role - Social media, influencer marketing, and content creation

02:52 Why the NFL needs creators beyond traditional TV

04:20 Creators as entry points for casual and younger fans

05:15 Global creator strategy - No borders with Mr. Beast and IShowSpeed

06:30 How to find the right creators for your brand

07:45 Building long-term relationships with rising creators

08:40 The Kai Cenat story - 5-6 years of partnership

10:12 The secret sauce - Getting in early and offering value

11:30 Letting creators be themselves for authentic engagement

13:05 Understanding creator momentum and culture

14:20 The Sketch example - Catching viral moments early

16:40 Live streamers and the endurance of daily content creation

18:25 Brand partnerships and measuring ROI from organic reach

20:10 Red Bull background - Building communities and content

22:30 Activision lessons - Community is everything in gaming

24:29 Parallels between gaming communities and NFL fandom

25:23 The gaming challenge - Quality bar and sustained presence

26:23 Roblox and Fortnite - You need a full studio operation

27:14 Flag football, mobile games, and the Olympics opportunity

27:26 Super Bowl preview - 150+ creators on the ground

28:12 NFL Season cooking competition and fashion shows

28:53 Cross-promotion with NBC and the Olympics

29:13 Showcasing culture and music around the NFL

29:27 Working with YouTube on their first NFL broadcast

29:59 Biggest challenge - Navigating AI in content and platforms

I never thought I'd be running a 70-employee media company built around two guys who started making Pokemon sketches in their bedroom. But here we are. When I stepped into the role of CEO of Smosh in early 2023, I wasn't just taking on a business - I was stewarding a 20-year legacy that spans five active YouTube channels, a 15-person cast, and millions of fans worldwide. My background in talent management taught me to think about creators as brands, and that's exactly how I approach Smosh today. We're not just making content - we're building a sustainable entertainment company that respects both the comedy at our core and the business fundamentals that keep us growing.

What excites me most is how we're redefining what digital-first entertainment looks like. We've invested heavily in 4K production to meet the demands of YouTube's living room experience, and we're launching ambitious projects like Hospital - a semi-scripted improv show that blends SNL-style comedy with Grey's Anatomy parody. But beyond the content itself, I'm passionate about changing how brands work with creators. Too many advertisers still treat us like we're amateurs in bedrooms, when the reality is we have the infrastructure, the talent, and the audience insights to deliver campaigns that traditional media can't match. We're proving that collaboration over competition and authenticity over scripts is the future of entertainment - and the future is happening right now.

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🚀 From Talent Manager to CEO: How working with Anthony Padilla at Press Alike and 15 years in the creator economy led to becoming CEO of a 70-employee media company with five active YouTube channels and 15 cast members.

📺 YouTube's Living Room Revolution: Why Smosh invested heavily in 4K production, upgraded cameras and servers, and how YouTube is slowly separating TV-viewing experiences from search engine content - with bold predictions about the platform's future.

🎭 Hospital Launches in January: A groundbreaking semi-scripted improv show where cast members play doctors who must swap out when they break character - blending SNL-style comedy with Grey's Anatomy parody, designed for viewers who've never heard of Smosh.

🤝 Collaboration Over Competition: Why Smosh's social team gets lunch with Mythical, their production manager grabs coffee with Dropout, and the entire creator economy thrives when digital entertainment companies share tips instead of treating each other as enemies.

💰 Owning Your CMS is Power: Lessons from the MCN era about the importance of maintaining your own content management system, controlling sales processes, and working directly with Google to craft bespoke advertising deals around major programming events.

📢 The Brand Partnership Problem: Why traditional TV commercials are terrible, how marketing agencies waste millions on creative that doesn't convert, and why Smosh only partners with brands they sincerely use - building authentic campaigns instead of following scripts.

⏰ Treat Creators Like Studios: The frustrating reality that brands still don't understand production schedules, kill fees, or professional timelines - and why the same respect given to Fox or NBC should apply to digital-first media companies.

🎯 Accessible Content Strategy: How shows like Do You Know Your Duo and Culinary Crimes are designed so new viewers can jump in without knowing Smosh's 20-year history - making great improv and comedy accessible to superfans and first-time watchers alike.

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🎥 Watch Smosh on YouTube

🔗 Follow Alessandra Catanese on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Introduction - Smosh's evolution from bedroom to boardroom

00:38 Early days of covering Smosh at Media Week

01:25 Meet Alessandra Catanese - from talent manager to CEO

02:01 The Maker Studios era and YouTube economy origins

03:14 15 years of experience leading to this role

03:43 Working with Anthony and Ian on the vision

05:37 Smosh 101 - five channels and 15 cast members

07:04 Full-fledged merch business and cast-driven products

07:51 Making content accessible without knowing the lore

08:51 Hospital show - the January improv comedy launch

09:20 SNL meets Grey's Anatomy with character breaks

10:22 YouTube on TV and the living room experience

11:05 Investing in 4K production for Summer Games

12:10 Honoring traditional TV conventions on YouTube

12:46 Predicting YouTube's TV vs search engine split

14:40 Digital and traditional becoming the same thing

15:26 The MCN era and owning your CMS

18:07 Google's special care and bespoke deals

19:14 MCN collaboration lessons and creator networks

20:11 YouTube was founded on collaboration

20:50 We don't have competition, we have collaborators

21:36 No monopoly on the internet

22:34 Growing the creator advertising economy

23:48 Educating advertisers on metrics that matter

24:19 Sincere representation philosophy with brands

24:52 Brands need smarter creative strategies

26:59 Why TV commercials are terrible today

27:40 YouTube provides instant, rich data

28:40 Working with newer vs legacy brands

29:09 Brands still see creators as bedroom amateurs

29:50 Production costs and treating creators professionally

30:29 Progress in podcast ad reads and trust

31:07 Wrap-up and final thoughts

I sat down with Evan Shapiro, the legendary media cartographer and author of the must-read substack Media War and Peace, to kick off 2026 with bold predictions about where our industry is heading. Evan didn't hold back as he unpacked the tension between AI-driven automation and the raw authenticity that makes creators so powerful. We explored how scale and reach are becoming vanity metrics, while fandom and engagement are what truly matter now. From Under Armor to Procter & Gamble, major brands are launching their own content channels and becoming creators themselves rather than just renting influencers. This isn't your typical brand content strategy, this is a fundamental shift in how marketing dollars flow.

We also tackled the elephant in the room: YouTube's dominance and whether anyone can challenge it, the explosive growth of retail media networks like Walmart and Amazon, and why traditional media companies like Disney and Warner Brothers are finally embracing platforms they once feared. Evan predicts the AI bubble will burst in 2026, not because the technology isn't valuable, but because it won't be the sexy revolution everyone's hyping. Instead, AI will improve things behind the scenes with targeting optimization and efficiency gains. Plus, we discussed the rise of social media politicians and how $2.5 billion in political ad spending could fundamentally change addressable TV advertising. This conversation is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

🎯 Engagement Over Reach: Scale and reach are now vanity metrics. The biggest shift in the creator economy is toward fandom and deep engagement rather than pure subscriber counts. Mr. Beast is the exception, creators like Amelia Dimoldenberg and Sean Evans prove that smaller, highly engaged audiences drive better business results.

🏢 Brands Become Creators: Under Armor, Procter & Gamble, and L'Oreal are launching their own content channels and production companies. Instead of hiring influencers, brands will convert ad spend into creating their own entertainment channels, following the Barbie and LEGO model of becoming lifestyle brands.

📺 Traditional Media's Creator Problem: Disney still treats YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok as brochure ware with trailers and promotional content. In 2026, major studios will finally go all-in on real content for these platforms, similar to how they eventually launched Disney+ after years of resistance.

🤖 The AI Bubble Will Burst: The hype around AI making movies, commercials, and scripts will deflate in 2026. AI's real value lies in boring but crucial improvements to targeting, optimization, and efficiency, not in replacing creative talent. Disney's $1.5 billion investment in OpenAI signals they're getting ahead of this shift.

🛍️ Retail Media's Next Wave: We're in the first half of the first inning of shoppable TV. Walmart's integration of Vizio will make them the second-largest retail media network after Amazon. This enables a whole new class of TV advertisers and unlocks budgets that never intersected with traditional media spending.

📱 Instagram and TikTok Launch CTV: Evan predicts both Instagram and TikTok will launch connected TV platforms in 2026. When Oracle takes control of TikTok in the US, a television product is inevitable. YouTube's success with shorts on TV proves short-form content can work on the big screen.

💰 YouTube's Branded Content Explosion: Branded deals embedded in YouTube videos grew over 50% in the first half of 2025, becoming the fastest-growing segment of YouTube's ad economy. With dynamic insertion launching for branded content in 2026, this will dramatically accelerate and become more scalable.

🗳️ Political Ads Transform CTV: The $2.5 billion political ecosystem will spend on hyper-local, outcome-based ads in 2026. This wave of aggressive buyers targeting at the neighborhood level will change television advertising at the genetic level and unlock the true promise of addressable TV.

🔗 Follow Evan Shapiro on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

This week on Next in Media, I sat down with Shane Atchison, CEO of Zaaz Collective, and Seth Gordon, a film director and co-founder of Zaaz. We dove into their mission to help micro and mid-level creators (those with 5,000 to 100,000 followers) think and act like media companies. With 96% of creators making minimum wage or less, Shane and Seth saw an opportunity to build a collective where creators could access the data, tools, and intelligence typically reserved for top-tier talent. They shared how Zaaz is using AI-powered analytics, audience insights, and comments-to-commerce strategies to help creators maximize their impact and earnings.

I was fascinated by their approach to solving the creator-brand disconnect. Shane explained how most creators have no idea what to charge for brand deals and often feel they get screwed on their first partnerships. Zaaz addresses this with transparent pricing data, engagement rate benchmarks, and personalized AI language models trained on each creator's unique content and audience. Seth brought a compelling perspective from the traditional entertainment world, noting how the $50 million ad model is dying and the future is much more atomized and creator-led. We also explored their plans for Q1 2025, including creator-to-creator events in Brazil and launching new tools for content transcription and multi-platform analytics.

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💡 The Creator Economy Gap: 96% of creators are making minimum wage or less despite the industry growing to $500 million by 2030 with 35% year-over-year growth in media spend.

🤝 The Collective Model: Zaaz operates as a membership-based collective where creators share anonymized data on brand deals, pricing, and engagement rates so everyone can learn what's a fair deal.

📊 Audience Intelligence: The platform unifies analytics across all social platforms in one dashboard and uses AI to analyze comments for purchase intent, brand opportunities, and genuine engagement.

💬 Comments to Commerce: Zaaz filters through thousands of comments to surface the ones that matter, like when someone asks "what shirt are you wearing?" turning those into affiliate link opportunities.

🤖 Personalized AI Language Models: Each creator gets their own AI agent trained on their content, comments, and audience data, plus access to collective intelligence from other creators' successful strategies.

🎯 Brand Discovery Done Right: Zaaz pushes dynamic media kits to discovery platforms so creators are represented with real-time data on momentum, engagement rates, and audience quality.

🎬 The Future is Atomized: Seth Gordon explained how the traditional $50 million ad campaign model is dying, and the future belongs to niche, specialized creator-led content reaching targeted audiences.

🚀 Launching in 2025: Zaaz is hosting creator-to-creator events in Brazil and the U.S., launching AI-powered content transcription tools, and helping creators who "don't realize they're creators" move into the space.

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🌐 Explore Zaaz Collective

🔗 Connect with Shane Atchison on LinkedIn

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Cold open - Building Zaaz for creators

00:36 Introducing Shane Atchison and Seth Gordon

02:02 What is Zaaz Collective?

03:00 How the collective model works

04:32 The "I got screwed" problem for creators

06:07 Seth on protecting creators in the wild west

07:07 Who are the target creators? (5K-100K followers)

08:32 Audience analytics across platforms

10:52 Comments to commerce strategy

13:04 Brand discovery and connecting the two sides

15:19 Seth on knowing your audience

18:32 The value of micro influencers

20:23 Seth on Warner Bros and the dying $50M ad model

22:10 Streamlining media spend in the creator economy

24:51 Personalized AI language models for creators

27:00 Q1 plans: Launching in Brazil and creator events

28:29 Wrap-up and thanks

This week I had the chance to sit down with two fascinating guests who are at the forefront of bridging the worlds of digital performance marketing and traditional television advertising. Nick Fairbairn, VP of Growth Marketing at Chime, and Andy Schonfeld, CRO at Tatari, walked me through how they've transformed Chime from a pure digital-first, DTC neobank brand built on social and search into a sophisticated advertiser that runs television campaigns with the same performance mindset they apply to Meta and Google. Their partnership has evolved from small linear TV tests six years ago to a comprehensive full-funnel TV strategy that blends brand building with direct response metrics.

Nick and Andy shared incredible insights into the evolution of performance TV, from navigating the COVID-era inventory opportunities to understanding why linear TV still matters even as streaming dominates the conversation. They explained how Chime approaches television with a portfolio strategy, balancing premium reach moments like live sports with more targeted direct response placements, and why creative and media planning have become the "new targeting" in a world where precise one-to-one identification remains expensive and imperfect. We also dove into the challenges of measuring TV in a fragmented landscape, the role of AI-driven creative, and whether shoppable TV will actually move the needle or remain a marginal innovation.

Here's a shorter version:

📺 From Walled Gardens to TV: Chime shifted from 80% Facebook/Google spend to treating TV as a performance channel, not just brand awareness.

🚀 COVID's Opportunity: The pandemic opened premium TV inventory at discounts as major advertisers exited, accelerating streaming adoption for performance marketers.

🎯 Performance TV Defined: Measuring full-funnel impact from awareness to account openings using spike attribution, MMM, and Tatari's platform.

⚡ Linear Still Works: Live sports and big moments deliver results at 75% off rate card for brands buying real-time through platforms like Tatari.

💰 The DR Valley of Death: Pure direct response TV hits limits, requiring investment in premium brand moments with longer attribution windows for growth.

🤖 AI and Creative Over Targeting: Paying 2-3x CPMs for precise targeting isn't worth it—creative and smart placement beat perfect identity resolution.

📱 Shoppable TV Reality: Interactive ads and QR codes show promise but remain marginal in business impact; AI-generated creative variations offer more upside.

🔗 Learn more about Chime

📊 Explore Tatari's performance TV platform

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

00:00 Opening - Performance TV and Chime's evolution

00:55 Introducing Nick Fairbairn (VP Growth Marketing at Chime)

01:00 Introducing Andy Schonfeld (CRO at Tatari)

01:10 Chime's historic media mix - born on social and search

02:00 The classic DTC journey - 80% in Facebook and Google

02:20 Bringing a portfolio approach to acquisition

02:40 Meeting Tatari and starting the TV journey (2019)

03:00 Initial barriers - cost, creative, and optimization concerns

03:40 Running TV like Meta from day one

04:10 Linear focus in the early days (2016-2019)

04:40 Small doses of TV with incrementality and attribution

05:00 How COVID accelerated streaming adoption

05:40 Major brands exiting created inventory opportunities

06:00 Fire sale opportunities on premium inventory

06:30 Nick's resistance to streaming at first

07:00 The linear purist becomes a 50/50 believer

07:40 Defining performance in TV advertising

08:20 Full funnel measurement - awareness to enrollments

09:00 Getting efficient on walled gardens to fund brand TV

09:40 The DR valley of death explained

10:10 How performance TV measurement has evolved

11:00 Starting lower funnel, then expanding upward

11:40 The $10-15M threshold where DR hits limits

12:10 Going premium - live sports and big moments

12:40 The commitment required to unlock TV's power

13:10 TV driving IPOs and acquisitions

13:40 Helping startups scale through TV

14:00 The state of CTV today - better or more complex?

14:40 Linear vs streaming buying challenges

15:10 Cost prohibitive targeting on streaming

15:50 Creative differences between linear and streaming

16:20 What's missing - the dashboard fantasy

17:00 Why linear still matters - 50% of viewership

17:40 Yankees playoff game example - 75% discount

18:30 You can't buy big moments programmatically

19:10 Relationships still matter in TV buying

19:50 Programmatic CTV limitations

20:30 Media mix modeling and holistic measurement

21:30 Identity and targeting in TV - does it matter?

22:10 Creative as the new targeting

22:50 Why paying 2-3x CPM for precision isn't worth it

23:30 You can't measure it all - need multiple approaches

24:00 Shoppable TV and interactive ads - bullish or not?

24:40 QR codes and send-to-phone - still marginal

25:10 Pause ads opening new real estate

25:40 Amazon remote ads and early testing

26:00 Dynamic AI creative - 100 variations vs two

26:30 Local market creative optimization

27:00 Something's brewing with device and TV convergence

27:30 Wrap-up and thanks

I had the incredible opportunity to bring together some of the brightest minds in the creator economy for an evening of candid conversation about where this industry is headed. From ad tech innovations to creator authenticity, we covered the full spectrum of what it takes to turn creator content into scalable, revenue-generating partnerships. Conor McKenna from Luma and Zoe Soon from the IAB kicked things off with a macro view of the space, discussing how fragmented media is creating massive opportunities for technology to step in. We explored why brands are shifting budgets at unprecedented rates, with Unilever committing 50% of marketing spend to creator-related initiatives.

The evening featured deep dives into brand integration strategies with Ali Parish from Blue Hour Studios and Jeremy Stewart from VuePlanner, followed by an eye-opening discussion with Arthur Leopolod from Agentio about how AI and automation are revolutionizing creator advertising. Perhaps most compelling was hearing directly from Sydney Jo, the creator behind the viral Group Chat series, and her manager Haley Friedman from Made By All about the reality of building a creator business. From navigating brand negotiations to maintaining creative authenticity, this conversation revealed both the opportunities and challenges facing the next generation of digital storytellers.

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🚀 The Walled Garden Shift: Meta and Google are evolving from social platforms to entertainment platforms, opening up competitive dynamics that allow ad tech to capture margin in the previously closed creator ecosystem.

📈 Explosive Growth Trajectory: The creator economy is projected to reach $37 billion this year, growing 400% faster than average digital media, with Agentio raising $40 million to help brands scale from $50K to over $1 million in creator spend without additional bandwidth.

🎯 The Authenticity Challenge: Brands are treating creators like Hollywood storytellers but expecting them to perform like programmatic ad units, creating a disconnect that requires better infrastructure, measurement, and understanding of the creator-first approach.

🤖 AI as the Creative Multiplier: While AI enables scalability and reduces production costs to zero, the real winners will be creators with established trust and parasocial relationships, as audiences increasingly seek authentic voices in a sea of AI-generated content.

💡 Partnership Over Performance: Long-term brand relationships like Sydney's multi-season deal with Hilton outperform transactional campaigns, with brands that engage in comments and understand social media culture seeing significantly better integration and results.

📊 The Measurement Gap: Over 50% of US buyers consider creators a must-buy (second only to search and social), yet the industry lacks standardized metrics beyond engagement and reach, requiring brands to rely heavily on first-party data and brand-specific goals.

🎬 Platform Dynamics: YouTube and Meta provide strong creator support with dedicated reps, while TikTok remains uniquely difficult to work with despite its massive scale, and creators intentionally maintain cross-platform presence to avoid giving control to any single platform.

⚡ From Viral to Viable: Sydney's journey from 250K to 1.7 million followers in one week (and a Today Show appearance) reveals both the opportunity and challenge of monetizing virality, highlighting the critical importance of having the right management team to navigate brand negotiations and maintain creative control.

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🌐 Learn more about VuePlanner

🌐 Learn more about Agentio

🎧 Subscribe to Next in Media on Apple Podcasts

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00:00 Opening remarks and industry momentum

01:10 Introducing Connor McKenney and Zoe Soon

03:00 The ad tech opportunity in creator economy

05:40 Walled gardens becoming distribution platforms

07:00 Why brands are shifting to creators

08:30 The infrastructure and measurement challenge

12:00 AI and algorithm control concerns

13:00 Standardization vs. authenticity debate

17:10 Ali Perish and Jeremy Stewart on brand integration

18:40 Evolution of Blue Hour Studios

20:40 View Planner's role in creator measurement

24:00 YouTube Creator Partnerships Hub

26:00 The lifetime value of creators

28:00 Arthur Leopold introduces Agentio

30:00 The $10 billion to $800 billion opportunity

32:00 How Agentio automates creator advertising

35:30 Bidding model and AI strategy creation

37:40 Creators as micro creative agencies

40:00 The Cambrian explosion of AI creativity

42:40 Sydney and Hailey from Made By All

44:00 Sydney's viral Group Chat origin story

46:30 Navigating early brand deals

49:00 The importance of saying no

51:40 Long-term brand relationships

54:00 When brands don't understand social media

56:00 Working with platform partners

58:30 Advice for brands and creators

01:00:00 Closing thoughts and thank you