One God Report

We continue our discussion with Troy Salinger on the “Pre-incarnate Appearances of the Son of God in the OT: Truth or Myth”.

In this episode Salinger leads us in a discussion about the “Commander of the LORD’s Armies” who appeared with a drawn sword in Joshua 5:13-15, just before the Israelites attacked and conquered Jericho. The Trinitarian world strongly suggests, sometimes insists, that this Commander of the LORD’s Army was a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus.

But was it?

Salinger gives good reasons why the answer is no, and suggests who this person really may have been.

See more in this article by Troy Salinger

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2019/03/03/pre-incarnate-appearances-of-the-son-of-god-in-the-ot-truth-or-myth-part-3/

Troy Salinger’s blog

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/

We continue our discussion with Troy Salinger on the supposed pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the Old Testament. In this episode we look at three events which Trinitarians have claimed to be a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament.

1. The burning bush incident in Exodus 3 (did Jesus claim in John 8:58 to be the God that appeared there?).

2. Melchizedek – was he a pre-incarnate Jesus?

3. Did Jesus appear “like one of the sons of God” in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

The podcast is based on Salinger’s article:

Pre-incarnate Appearances of the Son of God in the OT: Truth or Myth, Part 3

In this episode we ask the dual-natured, “100% God 100% man” Jesus some questions and find him to be at best a double-minded person, at worst a schizophrenic liar.

Traditional Christianity has maintained for centuries that Jesus is one person but has two natures, that Jesus is a God-man. 

The claim that “Jesus is God” or that Jesus is a “God-man” is thought to honor and exalt Jesus Christ, but actually denigrates him. The unbiblical “God-man” claim tries to turn the Jewish Jesus Christ into a two-faced liar.

In this second episode we continue to discuss the claim that Jesus the Son of God made pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament period.  We focus in this episode on the angel of the LORD.

No New Testament author claimed that Jesus made pre-incarnate appearances as the angel of the Lord. The claim begins in the AD 2nd century, with Justin Martyr being the first one on record to make such a claim.

Why is it that the angel (or Messenger) of Yahweh in the Old Testament is sometimes clearly said to be an angel, but then at other times actually seems to be Yahweh God? Is Jesus the angel of the Lord who is distinct from the Father but is someone still God?

Salinger first shows that the angel of the Lord is by no means always the same person or being in every case the angel/messenger appears. In fact, there are human beings in the Old Testament who are specifically called the angel(s) of the Lord.

Salinger explains that the key to understanding the passages about the angel of the Lord being distinct from Yahweh but sometimes speaking in the 1st person as Yahweh, or whose works are attributed to Yahweh, is AGENCY. The angel/messenger carries the authority and resources of God who sent him. God is considered to be personally present in the presence of the messenger He sent.

Some examples of agency, where the agent is considered to be the one who sent him, are given from both the Old and New Testaments.

There is no need for mysterious speculation about an angel who both is and isn’t God.

Resource links for this episode:

Salinger article: Pre-incarnate appearances in the OT: Truth or Myth Part 1

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/pre-incarnate-appearances-of-the-son-of-god-in-the-ot-truth-or-myth-part-1/

Troy Salinger blog home:

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/

Bill Schlegel YouTube channel

Interview with painter and theologian Troy Salinger.

Troy Salinger's blog is Let the Truth Come Out:

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/

In this first episode of a series, we discuss motivations for why some Christians feel the need to find pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in the OT. Their motivation is based on the pre-supposition that Jesus was more than a human being. That he was a spirit emanation out of God, a created being like an angel, or God himself, or one member of a godhead.

No one in the NT goes to the OT to find evidences of the pre-incarnate God the Son, so those who believe in a pre-incarnate son look for clues themselves to find him.

Justin Martyr was the first Christian writer on record to propose the idea that certain appearances of God in the Old Testament were actually Jesus.  Justin Martyr lived in the middle of the 2ndcentury, some 100 years after Jesus was on earth.

At least three places in the New Testament say that God can’t be seen. The Trinitarian assumes this refers to the Father (or the Trinity?), but for some reason maintains that the second person of the godhead can be seen. But how is it that the Father can not be seen, but the son who is fully God exactly the same as the Father in every way, can be seen?

We discuss three New Testament verses (1 Cor. 10:3-4, 9 and Jude 5) that Trinitarians claim show that Jesus was literally alive in the Old Testament period and involved in the Israelite Exodus from Egypt.

In the next episode, God willing, we discuss if the Angel of the Lord who appeared in the New Testament was a pre-incarnate appearance of the Son of God.

Links for this episode:

Troy Salinger blog home: https: //letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/

Pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the OT: Truth or Myth, Part 1

Refutation of the Master’s University Document on the Deity of Christ and the Trinity(8 articles)

https://letthetruthcomeoutblog.wordpress.com/?s=Refutation+master%27s+university

(Biblical) Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference, Oct. 15-17, 2012

https://www.unitarianchristianalliance.org/conference/

In this episode (Part 2 of a 2 part episode) we continue to examine and comment on John 5, where Jesus healed a lame man at the Pools of Bethesda in Jerusalem.  

In Part 1 (One God Report Podcast episode #52) we discussed the meaning of what it means biblically to be sent by God, and how a sent agent of God is given by God a defined equality to God, and represents God.

In this podcast we continue to show that all of John 5 is to be understood in the context of agency: Jesus is the sent human Son of God, and as God's agent has an equality of God.

We show that the phrase "equal with God" is best understood in the biblical, Hebraic concept of "agency", an equality between the one sent and his sender.  "The one sent is equal to his sender".  The equality of the Messiah Jesus to God is as God's sent agent, not an equality of divine essence or nature.  

The Christology of the Gospel of John is not "incarnation" (God taking on flesh, or becoming human) but "agency", God being represented and granting His authority to His appointed human Messiah Jesus.  

For full written text of this episode and episode 2, see here:

https://landandbible.blogspot.com/2021/09/john-518-but-he-was-also-calling-god.html

In this episode (Part 1 of a 2 part episode) we examine and comment on John 5, where Jesus healed a lame man at the Pools of Bethesda in Jerusalem.

https://landandbible.blogspot.com/2021/09/john-518-but-he-was-also-calling-god.html

·  More New Creation in the Gospel of John: Why John’s Prologue Should be Interpreted in the Context of New Creation

·  The Gospel of John, the Historical Context of the New Creation and New Testament Context

Pakistani Haroon Gulzar was studying in a Catholic seminary when he began to understand that God is not a Trinity, but is one, and that Jesus is God's human Messiah.

https://www.facebook.com/haroon.gulzar.1481

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https://www.facebook.com/Unitarian-Christian-Fellowship-Pakistan-111037450371592

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Maryam Haroon

https://www.facebook.com/maryam.younas.31

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World Remit money transfer to Pakistan

https://www.worldremit.com/en/pakistan?fbclid=IwAR1LMb_a5IIZVXx31_woI7QDUcp4MFaNRQ8LXwIhESRcs0m848gpeOR_74U&transfer=bnk&selectto=pk&amountfrom=100.00¤cyto=pkr¤cyfrom=usd

Account holder:

First name: Haroon

Last name : Gulzar

Account type: Allied Express

Bank name: Allied Bank

City/Town: Islamabad

Pakistan Address: House no. 56, Street No. 9B, Sector G8-2, Islamabad

Swift Code: ABPAPKKA

IBAN: PK27ABPA0010072822400019

Mobile # : +92 311 0056 922

Gabriel, a relatively knew Christian, asks Trinitarians five questions:

1. Where does Jesus teach that God is a three person being, a Trinity?

Compare John 18:20

2. Where do the apostles teach Jesus is God after he leaves earth?

Compare Acts 2:22

3. Where do the apostles teach that God is a three person being, a Trinity?

Compare Ephesians 4:6

4. Where does the Bible teach that we must believe that God is a three person being to be a Christian or to be saved?

Compare Deuteronomy 6:1, Galatians 3:20

5. Where does the Bible say that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

Compare John 20:31

Bonus question: Where does God teach that he is a three person being?

Jesus said “I am the Root of David” (Rev. 5:5, 22:16, cf. "Root of Jesse", Isaiah 11:1, 10, Romans 15:12).

Being the Root of Jesse and the Root of David does not mean that Jesus is God, but rather that Jesus is a descendant of Jesse and David.

Some Trinitarians claim that since Jesus is called the Root of Jesse and the Root of David, Jesus must have preceded both Jesse and David, and is the source of their lives and is therefore God.

This podcast will explain why this Trinitarian claim is wrong. We will see that being the root of Jesse or the root of David, like being a branch from David, means that Jesus is a physical descendant of Jesse and David. The roots below ground, like the branches above ground, physically extend from the trunk of Jesse and David.

Being the root of Jesse or the Root of David has nothing to do with being God.