Trinities

In videos like this one and this one, trinitarian apologists continue to push false narratives about the history of mainstream Christian theologies, like these (ordered from least to most plausible):

In this historical presentation, focusing on passages from Tertullian, Origen, and Novatian, I explain the actual early history of mainstream Christian theologies. Each of these three authors is a logos theorist, and I explain how they think God and the Logos (aka “the second god”) differ. “Subordinationism” is a feature, not a bug of these theologies; it is how they stay monotheistic despite positing multiple “divine” beings–only one “god” is strictly speaking a god. Each writer implies that logos theory was in their day a minority view; it seems that logos theories were at first popular among the “elite” and were widely rejected by other Christians. Each of these writers describes Christians who disagree with their Logos speculations. Since Harnack historians have called these Dynamic Monarchians and Modalistic Monarchians. Using the stick figures first deployed here, I explain the differences between these three mainstream Christian theologies, and between each of them and the trinitarian theology that was demanded by the mainstream starting in 381. Finally, I take a stab out outlining the actual early history of Christian theologies, starting with Dynamic Monarchianism and ending with the hegemony of trinitarianism.

Because of the many slides (and stick figures) I recommend the video version:

Thanks to Brandon Duke for editing the video and to Mark Cain for expertly cleaning up the lecture audio! Finally, my sincerest thanks to the tireless UK International Conference committee whose hard work made this encouraging meeting possible. Watch the UCA blog for an announcement of the next UK international conference!

Links for this episode:

Thomas Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: the Earliest Christology?

Unitarian Christian Alliance

podcast 281 – Introducing the Unitarian Christian Alliance

Clarifying Catholic Christologies

podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God”

von Harnack on logos theories and mystery

Evolution of the Trinity – with Bill Schlegel

podcast 262 – The Trinity before Nicea?

Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus

Craig: how Nicene orthodoxy rules out the full deity of Christ

Origen on the Challenge to Jesus is God Apologists

trinitarian or unitarian? 7 – Origen uncensored

Origen, Paul, and Peter: Christians worship the Jews’ god

Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 1

Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 2

podcast 24 – How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian

This week’s thinking music is “Blood (Instrumental)” by Anthem of Rain.

To understand a book as its author intended, you don’t look to its future, but rather to its past. What has this author read, and what could he presuppose his audience to have read? These other pieces of literature are like tools in the author’s hands.

The biblical book of Proverbs famously features a vivid personification, Lady Wisdom. She pleads with people to seek and find her, and she even appears alongside God when he is creating. As Dr. Dustin Smith explains, this character appears in a number of later ancient Jewish writings in various ways, and can even be described as “incarnate” in certain people. Many of these would have been accessible both to the author of John and his audience.

Paul famously writes that Christ is “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24). But as James Dunn has observed, this idea of Christ as God’s wisdom is more prominent in John than in any other New Testament book. Drawing on an impressive array of recent scholarship, in Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John Dr. Dustin Smith argues that “the Johannine Jesus is incarnate Wisdom and that this christological presentation permeates all twenty-one chapters of the Fourth Gospel” (p. 213).

In this new discussion we focus on the basics of “wisdom christology” and on how that idea sheds light on the famous opening to the fourth gospel, John 1:1-18.

Links for this episode:

Smith, Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John

Smith, The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus

Transfigured: Dr. Dustin Smith – Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John

previous trinities podcast episodes with Dustin Smith

Unitarian Christian Alliance

podcast 301 – Dr. Daniel Boyarin on John 1

podcast 295 – James Martineau on John 1

John A. T. Robinson on “the Word” of John 1

How John 1 was intelligible in the first century

podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant

This week’s thinking music is “Spacedust” by airtone.

The way to evaluate a debate is to actively chart and compare the arguments made by each side. Debaters call this “flowing” a debate.

I sat down and did this, working carefully all the way through my recent debate with James White on the question “Is Jesus Yahweh?”

In this episode I’ll give you my evaluation of the debate, with an assist from the cutting edge Chat Debate Beta AI. She and I even go so far as to declare a winner!

Do you agree? Why or why not? How would you have argued one side or the other differently

I’ve been interviewed several times about the debate; see the videos below.

Links for this episode:

the fully produced video of the debate

Who Should Christians Worship?

Microsoft Copilot

Identity

Restitutio 451 Wisdom Christology in Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille) July 8, 2022

Restitutio 450 Seven Interpretive Options for Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille) June 30, 2022

Restitutio 449 Intertextuality and Interpretation of Hebrews 1 (Jerry Wierwille) June 23, 2022

This week’s thinking music is “Dit it and Quit It” by Van Loon.

In this episode: mutual interrogations, closing statements, and audience questions and answers.

You be the judge.

In the next episode I’ll share some of my thoughts about this debate.

Thanks to James White and to the co-sponsors of the debate: First Lutheran Houston and the Unitarian Christian Alliance.

Links for this episode:

podcast 377 – Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh? White vs. Tuggy – Part 1

Restitutio 539 Dale Tuggy’s Thoughts on the James White Debate: Is Jesus Yahweh?

UCA Podcast

the fully produced UCA version of the debate video

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Restitutio 450 Seven Interpretive Options for Hebrews 1.10-12 (Jerry Wierwille)

This week’s thinking music is “Badoobap” by Van Loon.

This episode contains the Pro and Con opening statements and rebuttals from the debate on March 9, 2024 between James White and Dale Tuggy in Houston, Texas. The debate question is “Is Jesus Yahweh?”

Which side makes the stronger opening arguments? Which side does a better job at rebutting the other’s opening arguments?

Because of our many slides, the fully edited video version below is recommended. (However, the above podcast audio-only version above has some groovy Thinking Music in between the segments.)

My thanks to the host Pastor and Moderator Evan McClanahan of First Lutheran Houston, James White, the UCA Podcast‘s host and producer Mark Cain, who masterfully cleaned up the source audio, and UCA Board Member Brandon Duke, who produced the video above.

Links for this episode:

pdf of Tuggy’s opening Con statement

A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me (Revised)

podcast 344 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 2

podcast 343 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 1

podcast 341 – Reflections on my debate with Dr. Andrew Loke

podcast 340 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 2

podcast 339 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 1

podcast 87 – Kermit Zarley on the deity and preexistence of Jesus

podcast 332 – Emlyn’s Humble Inquiry

Debate – “Is Jesus Human and not Divine?” – Dr. Dale Tuggy vs. Chris Date

podcast 144 – Dr. Timothy Pawl’s In Defense of Conciliar Christology – Part 2

podcast 143 – Dr. Timothy Pawl’s In Defense of Conciliar Christology – Part 1

This week’s thinking music is “Tuff” by Van Loon.

This is the final part of my response to some recent podcast episodes by Dr. William Lane Craig here and here.

Dr. Craig accuses me of being disingenuous in claiming that his minimal, so-called “biblical” doctrine consisting of two sentences is not enough to count as a trinitarian theology. I stand by that claim, and point out that it is unclear why Dr. Craig thinks that those sentences say anything about a tripersonal God.

I also discuss his claim that his rival hypothesis, that the New Testament authors assumed those two sentences, explains the 20 facts I build my case on in the forthcoming debate book. I don’t discuss all 20 facts here, but I describe the 5 facts that I presented in the recent book panel session, and point out that Craig’s hypothesis in fact doesn’t explain any of those, in contrast to the hypothesis I call “U,” that the New Testament authors assume that the one God just is the Father and that neither the Son nor the Spirit are fully divine.

In his recent podcast Dr. Craig also seems to suggest that I think there is one doctrine of the Trinity, and that in the debate book I attacked a straw man theology which no trinitarian holds. I point out that both claims are mistaken. I also discuss the two different Trinity theories he has presented, pointing out that one could be true while the other is false.

Finally, I summarize the shortcomings of our recent interactions and I challenge Dr. Craig to a full-length, face to face public debate, suggesting four topics:

Links for this episode:

podcast 375 – The Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and the Best Craig – Part 1

podcast 374 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 3

podcast 373 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 2

podcast 372 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 1

Reasonable Faith Podcast: Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism Part One

Reasonable Faith Podcast: Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism Part Two

“Craig’s Contradictory Christ”

“Trinity,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

This week’s thinking music is “Hi as Hats” by Van Loon.

In this episode I first explain what I mean by “the best Craig” and why in my view we’re not getting that in some recent responses to my arguments. I then respond to some recent podcast episodes by Dr. William Lane Craig here and here, where Craig is not engaging with my arguments, instead dismissing me as a fringe kook who can be safely ignored.

I note how quickly he jumps from the Trinity to the Incarnation, and I challenge him to explain why, on biblical grounds, a doctrine of the Trinity is essential for Christianity. I also point out some mistakes and misunderstandings, as well as his failure to engage with my published critique of his Neo-Apollinarian christology and my views on the fourth gospel.

We again revisit what Craig calls “the modern relation of identity” (really: a modern understanding of identity) and I point out what is now an area of agreement about the concept of identity. Yet based on his recent remarks, Craig doesn’t understand what I think about the identity of God and the Father in the New Testament.

I refute his recent allegation that no New Testament scholar thinks that nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus taught to be fully divine; my counterexample is the famous and influential James Dunn. I then offer a few thoughts on his fallback objection that the vast majority of New Testament scholars would disagree.

Lastly, I respond to his brief argument from divine providence and the fourth gospel. Am I committed to God failing in his promised post-resurrection revelation?

Links for this episode:

podcast 374 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 3

podcast 373 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 2

podcast 372 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 1

Reasonable Faith Podcast: Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism Part One

Reasonable Faith Podcast: Trinitarianism vs Unitarianism Part Two

Craig, In Quest of the Historical Adam: A Biblical and Scientific Exploration

Craig and van Inwagen, Do Numbers Exist?

4 views on the Trinity – William Lane Craig, Dale Tuggy, Beau Branson, William Hasker

the arguments Dr. Craig didn’t want his podcast audience to hear

UCA YouTube channel

podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God”

Does God Exist? William Lane Craig vs. Christopher Hitchens – Full Debate

Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology?

Restitutio Podcast 528 Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology (Thomas Gaston)

podcast 176 – Photinus of Sirmium

podcast 286 – Is the Trinity Essential? – Three Views

podcast 291 – From one God to two gods to three “Gods” – John 1 and early Christian theologies

podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant

“Craig’s Contradictory Christ”

podcast 344 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 2

podcast 343 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 1

the pythagorean theorem

How much did Aristotle understand about numerical sameness (identity)?

Debating Dale Starter Pack

James Dunn

Dunn, Christology in the Making

Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?

SEP “Trinity” 1.4 The Trinity as Incoherent

Molinism, a.k.a. Middle Knowledge

A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me

This week’s thinking music is “Lan Voon” by Van Loon.

This episode is the final portion of the EPS session devoted to the forthcoming book, One God, Three Persons, Four Views, edited by Dr. Chad McIntosh. You’ll hear the entire Q&A portion of the session, plus my commentary thereupon. Topics include:

There is also a question about and some more discussion of Dr. Craig’s controversial claim that it is an anachronism to suppose that New Testament authors could make claims involving the concept of numerical identity. I point out that any normal adult, then or now, can wonder, after twice referring, if they’ve referred to the same thing twice or rather to two things in succession. I also point out that the anti-modalist plank of trinitarian confessions, even ancient ones, employs the concept of same-thing-as when it denies that any “Person” of the Trinity is numerically the same with any of the others (i.e. that all of these are false: f = s, s = h, h = f).

For his part, Dr. Craig asks me if I accept a Socinian account of atonement, and you’ll also hear the humorous end of this panel session, as the editor Dr. McIntosh hands out clever gifts to each of the four authors.

In the final segment I critique some answers Dr. Craig has recently given on his podcast to some listener questions about the Bible and “the Trinity,” also offering my own answers.

Links for this episode:

podcast 373 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 2

podcast 372 – Book Session Identity Crisis – Part 1

Reasonable Faith Podcast: Questions on Morality, the Trinity, and Retirement, December 11, 2023

1 Chronicles 20:29; Philippians 2:9-11; Romans 5; Matthew 1:23; John 1:1; Mark 12:28-34; Deuteronomy 6:4; Deuteronomy 4:35; John 14:28; John 1:18; John 20:28; John 20:17; John 10:31-36; John 20:30-31; John 14:9; Acts 17:11.

Identity

How much did Aristotle understand about numerical sameness (identity)?

Craig, Atonement and the Death of Christ

fulfillment fallacy: the Bible teaches that David is God

fulfillment fallacy: the Bible on another previous life of Jesus

Jesus’s argument in John 10

podcast 235 – The Case Against Preexistence

podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant

podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?”

podcast 70 – The one God and his Son according to John

podcast 146 – Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament

podcast 92 – Dr. Joshua Thurow on objections to atonement theories

podcast 91 – Dr. Joshua Thurow on theories of the atonement

podcast 189 – The unfinished business of the Reformation

This week’s thinking music is “Run Hard” by Mr. Smith.

In this second part (part 1 here) you’ll hear the mutual interrogation portion of the EPS session on book One God, Three Persons, Four Views, with plenty of commentary by me and some extra relevant audio. This portion of the session contains a number of interesting exchanges. Among them:

Craig urges, as he did in part 1, that most ancient people either lacked a concept of numerical identity (represented in modern logics by the symbol =) or at least that they did not have a modern grasp of that concept, so that they could explain it like this. You will hear in this episode how he came to this conviction. In his view this is a simple argument by which to show that any unitarian interpretation of the New Testament (i.e. any one on which the authors hold that the unique God and the Father are one and the same), is an historical anachronism, and so needn’t be taken seriously.

I push back both in the session and in the commentary here, urging via a thought-experiment and via examination of a couple of New Testament passages (John 7:41-42 and Luke 24:13-35), that ordinary ancient people did have a concept of same-thing-as or numerical identity. I also show, using some additional conference audio, that Craig is committed to their having that concept by the view he attributes to the authors of Scripture and to the Pre-Nicene “fathers” that God is the creator of absolutely everything else.

Links for this episode:

Part 1

Reasonable Faith podcast episode: Dr. Craig’s Health Update

Tuggy, “Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection“

podcast 248 – How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible

McIntosh review of Craig, God Over All and Craig, God and Abstract Objects (website)

Craig, Cadbury Lectures: “God Over All” (2015) playlist

Papers by Peter van Inwagen

This week’s thinking music is “Cardboard Engineering” by Jesse Spillane.

In this episode you’ll hear the four opening speeches in a book session at the Evangelical Philosophical Society conference in San Antonio, Texas in November of 2023. The book is One God, Three Persons, Four Views, edited by Chad McIntosh, forthcoming probably deep into 2024. (See UCA podcast #77 for the back story about the book.)

The speakers are the co-authors William Hasker (his paper presented by Dr. McIntosh), Beau Branson, William Lane Craig, and Dale Tuggy. Each one is supposed to explain what is distinctive about his approach to the Trinity. Dr. Hasker presents the basics of his three-self theory, focusing on his claim that the “Persons” really are “centers of consciousness” (selves). Dr. Branson explains his “Monarchical Trinitarianism,” focusing on a number of linguistic distinctions, such as different meanings of “god.” Dr. Craig briefly explains what he claims is a minimal and biblical Trinity theory and what he claims is an unproblematic model of the doctrine of the Trinity amounts to. He also urges that I have failed to rebut his case that Jesus “is God” (i.e. not identical with God, but rather that he has divine-Person divinity, as opposed to god-divinity). Finally, I present my unitarian Christian view, focusing on five of my twenty facts which favor the thesis that the New Testament authors are unitarian over the thesis that those authors are trinitarian.

I provide an opinionated running commentary on the presentations . . . and a few sound effects.

Next time: interactions between the four panelists, and some extra information about Craig’s claim that the New Testament authors had no concept (or no clear grasp of the concept) of identity, which is how he hopes to refute any understanding of New Testament theology on which the one God and the Father are one and the same.

Links for this episode:

Tim Stratton and Free Thinking Ministries

Reading comprehension quiz: Johann 17:1-3

podcast 227 – Who Should Christians Worship?

podcast 28 – Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God – Part 2

podcast 27 – Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God – Part 1

podcast 78 – Mr. Chad McIntosh on the Trinity as a Functional Person

God as a functional Person

Kapusta, Scripturae Contra Trinitatem – The Epistle to the Hebrews: An Anthology of Quotations, Alternative Expositions, and Critical Commentaries on Common Trinitarian Proof-Texts

podcast 351 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 2

podcast 350 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 1

podcast 349 – Craig-Tuggy dialogue on trinitarian vs. unitarian theologies

Mahaparinibbana Sutta

podcast 246 – Response to Branson Part 4 – the shortcomings of “monarchical trinitarianism”

podcast 245 – Response to Branson Part 3 – Dueling Definitions

podcast 244 – Response to Branson Part 2 – Early Orthodox Trinitarians

podcast 243 – Response to Branson Part 1 – The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity

This week’s thinking music is “Into the J” by Admiral Bob.