When you’re from a trinitarian Christian tradition, whether or not a doctrine of the Trinity is really in the Bible is more than an intellectual question. For one thing, there is the fear: am I angering God by asking these questions? And another huge factor is the peer pressure: it’s part of catholic traditions to harshly exclude, with little to no discussion, people who will not pay lip service to “the doctrine of the Trinity.”

On the other hand, there are Christians who’ve always had the blessing of being in a biblical unitarian group like the Christadelphians or the Church of God General Conference.

And then there are those who are blessed to be in a unitarian Christian group, but it is a high-control one, and they have to carefully work their way free from it.

In this new book, you’ll read the testimonies of eight unitarian Christians, each with a unique story. If you’re on any of these journeys, you’ll find things to relate to here. This episode is my interview with contributor and instigator Seneca Harbin, my wife Candise Tuggy, who contributed a chapter, and Anna Brown, who helped in the publication of this book for Living Hope International Ministries.

The subject is heavy, but as you’ll hear Seneca and his co-authors approach it with faith, hope, love, and a good sense of humor.

Links for this episode:

The Cost of Truth: Stories of Biblical Unitarian Christians

Unitarian Christian Alliance

UCA 2025 UK International Conference

Converge

Restitutio Podcast 569 The Cost of Truth (Seneca Harbin)

Church of God General Conference

Seth Ross @ Church of God General Conference

Christian Centered Counseling

UCA Podcast 33 My Trinitarian Best Friend – Amanda Dunn (Part 1)

UCA Podcast 34 My Homeschooling Nail-biter – Amanda Dunn (Part 2)

podcast 357 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 2

podcast 356 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 1

podcast 333 – The Arguments of “God’s Death”

Susanne Lakin – Biblical Anthropomorphism – Evidence of a Unipersonal God

Anna Brown – No Mere Man: Biblical Anthropology as Response to Psilanthropism – UCA Conference 2022

John Schoenheit @ Spirit & Truth

podcast 232 – Trinity Club Orientation

Bill Schlegel’s blog Land and Bible

Bill Schlegel’s podcast: The One God Report

Compass Christian Church in Louisville, KY

Pastor Will Barlow’s blog Study Driven Faith blog

Restitutio 313 Questioning Way International Doctrines (William Barlow)

Living Hope Community Church in Latham, NY

Dale Tuggy – 10 Ways to Kill Unitarian Christianity

This week’s thinking music is “Peaceful” by Mr. Smith.

In this second part (part 1 here) I interact with the rest of this discussion between Dr. Sean McDowell and Dr. Fred Sanders.

I do register some significant agreements with them, but on the whole, my criticism from last time stands: their apologetic defense of “the doctrine of the Trinity” is not anywhere near sufficient to rebut or refute the arguments presented by today’s unitarian Christians.

I also explain some historical problems with various things they’re saying. Detailed knowledge of early Christian theologies and Christologies disrupts a number of common trinitarian narratives and assumptions.

Questions addressed include:

At the end I offer to help.

Links for this episode:

Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“

podcast 115 – the aborted council at Serdica in 343

podcast 114 – the recycled creed (342-359)

podcast 113 – the council at Antioch in 341

podcast 31 – Dr. William Hasker on the “Arian” Controversy

podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea

podcast 29 – Arius

Prestige, God in Patristic thought

podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God”

Tuggy, What is the Trinity?

10 steps towards getting less confused about the Trinity 

Clarke, The Scripture-Doctrine of the Trinity

Biddle, The Apostolical and True Opinion Concerning the Holy Trinity

podcast 348 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 2 – Two Thieves and Three Arguments

Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God

Unitarian Christian Alliance

Church of God General Conference

Spirit and Truth

podcast 357 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 2

podcast 356 – Seminary student takes Trinity class, becomes unitarian – Part 1

Dustin Smith’s The Biblical Unitarian Podcast

Sean Finnegan’s Restitutio Podcast

McIntosh, ed. – Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy – One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity

This week’s thinking music is “Discipline” by Mr. Smith.

In this episode I, a Biola University alum (B.A., Philosophy) interact with this video by two current Biola University professors, Dr. Fred Sanders, and Dr. Sean McDowell.

Their goals are to show that the doctrine of the Trinity is coherent (not self-contradictory) and that it fits well with Scripture.

Issues they discuss include:

In my commentary I point out that Dr. McDowell and Dr. Sanders are for the most part avoiding harder objections and issues pressed by unitarian Christians like me. When harder objections are brought up, their answers are lacking. In particular, the biblical problems are much, much harder then they are assuming. How does the Bible teach that the one God is the Trinity when it seems to clearly teach that the one God is the Father, the one formerly called “Yahweh”? How does the Bible teach the full deity of Jesus when it straightforwardly presents him as having limitations which God must lack?

They also ignore that different, incompatible doctrines, such as one-self and three-self Trinity theories all offer the same traditional language–thus, repeating that language does not suffice to clearly communicate a trinitarian theology. Their talk of “the doctrine of the Trinity” mistakenly presupposes that theologians loyal to trinitarian traditions are teaching the same things. They are not.

In the next episode I interact with the remainder of their presentation.

Links for this episode:

podcast 252 – Fred Sanders on Seeing the Trinity in Scripture, and his Secret

podcast 193 – Review of Sanders’s The Deep Things of God – Part 2

podcast 192 – Review of Sanders’s The Deep Things of God – Part 1

podcast 194 – God: One Person or Three? Sanders vs. Buzzard debate

Dustin Smith’s The Biblical Unitarian Podcast

Sean Finnegan’s Restitutio Podcast

Sanders, The Deep Things of God: How the Trinity Changes Everything (2nd ed.)

Tuggy, “Trinity,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Baber, “Trinity,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Dustin Smith – The Plural of Majesty

podcast 11 – Tertullian the unitarian – Trinities

Cartwright, “On the Logical Problem of the Trinity”

Date and Tuggy, Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?

Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“

podcast 330 – Dr. Joshua Sijuwade on the monarchy of the Father

McIntosh, ed. – Craig vs. Hasker vs. Branson vs. Tuggy – One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity

podcast 189 – The unfinished business of the Reformation

Craig, “Is God the Son Begotten in His Divine Nature?”

podcast 248 – How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible

How Trinity theories conflict with the New Testament

Loke-Tuggy debate: Does the NT Teach that Jesus is Truly Divine?

The Tuggy-Brown debate: Dale’s opening statement

podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?”

podcast 260 – How to Argue that the Bible is Trinitarian

podcast 384 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the Late 100s – Early 200s and Early Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold”

podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know

the concept of a triune God an anachronism in the first three centuries

podcast 26 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 2

podcast 25 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 1

podcast 271 – Does your Trinity theory require relative identity?

the apologetics blind-spot on numerical identity

This week’s thinking music is “Ridgeway Drive” by Mr. Smith.

In this second part (first part here) we hear the rest of this podcast by Cold Case Christianity apologist and former cold case detective J. Warner Wallace.

In this part he tries to define “the doctrine of the Trinity” by quoting a portion of the so-called “Athanasian Creed.” He then argues that this doctrine is necessary for understanding the atonement, and gives his version of the philosophical argument that God could not be a single someone because then he would fail to be perfect in love.

I critique these arguments, then share four of the many facts which led me to reconsider my position on the Bible and “the doctrine of the Trinity.” I end by recommending four good sources for a student of Scripture who is trying to figure out whether or not the Bible teaches a Trinity doctrine: biblicalunitarian.com, the REV translation, and Dr. Dustin Smith’s Biblical Unitarian Podcast. I also discuss Mr. Wallace’s habit of referring to “the triune nature of God,” explaining why some trinitarians affirm and others deny that divinity implies tripersonality.

Has Wallace shown that the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine? Let us know what you think in the comments below or in the trinities podcast Facebook Group.

Links for this episode:

podcast 2 – the “Athanasian Creed”

J.N.D. Kelly, The Athanasian Creed

Tuggy, “Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection” – a general refutation of a whole range of arguments from divine perfections, e.g. love, against unitarian theologies.

podcast 286 – Is the Trinity Essential? – Three Views

podcast 63 – Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58 – Trinities

McIntosh, Ed., One God, Three Persons, Four Views – a four way debate between Branson, Craig, Hasker, and Tuggy.

Kermit Zarley on “My Lord and my God.”

This week’s thinking music is “Bad Guys” by Dirk Dehler.

In this and the next episode I engage with an episode by Cold Case Christianity apologist J. Warner Wallace called “Why is the Trinity an Essential Doctrine?“ (Also here. Alternate title: “Is the Trinity Contradictory?“)

We first hear him explain how crime-solving police detectives reason using Inference to the Best Explanation, or what some call abductive reasoning. This is an approach I endorse; among other places I have made use of it here and here and here. But as you’ll hear, Mr. Wallace abandons this method entirely when it comes to “the doctrine of the Trinity.”

Topics in this first part include:

Links for this episode:

Cold Case Christianity

God’s Crime Scene: A Cold-Case Detective Examines the Evidence for a Divinely Created Universe

What is the Trinity?

the evolution of my views on the Trinity

Dale’s publications at PhilPapers, Academia.edu, and Google Scholar

podcast 126 – What is an evangelical? With Kermit Zarley

“Trinity,” Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Dale Tuggy and James White debate: “Is Jesus YHWH?”

McIntosh, ed., Branson, Craig, Hasker, and Tuggy: One God, Three Persons, Four Views

podcast 232 – Trinity Club Orientation

Dale Tuggy – Trinitarian “Fool’s Gold” – Mainstream Christian Theologies – Late 100’s to Early 200’s

Dale Tuggy – Christian theologies in the year 240John 17 posts

podcast 227 – Who Should Christians Worship?

Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?: The New Testament

proskuneo

podcast 259 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 2

podcast 258 – Who is the one Creator? – Part 1

podcast 26 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 2

podcast 25 – Pastor Sean Finnegan on “the Holy Spirit” – Part 1

What John 1 Meant lecture (blog post)

a reading of Philippians 2:5-11

podcast 224 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 – God and “God” in the Bible

Scriptures discussed include: Acts 5:3-5; Mark 12:28-34; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 8:40; John 17:1-3; Matthew 2:11; Isaiah 44:24; John 1:1-3; Job 33:4; Mark 13:32; Matthew 24:36; John 4:25; John 16:30; 2 Samuel 20:14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; 1 Kings 8:27; Matthew 18:20; Psalm 139:7-12; Romans 15:30.

This week’s thinking music is “Bad Guys” by Dirk Dehler.

In this episode you’ll hear my presentation from the October 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock, Arkansas. In it I explain the theological landscape from the late 100s through the early 200s using the words of some writers in that era: the author of the Refutation of All Heresies (attributed by some to Hippolytus), Theodotus of Byzantium (as quoted by Epiphanius), Noetus of Smyrna and Zephyrinus (as reported in the Refutation).

I discuss gnostic “possessionist” Christologies, Dynamic Monarchianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Logos Theories, a.k.a. unitarian subordinationism, and the fallacy committed by trinitarian apologists who appeal to pre-Nicene authors as being trinitarian. I then discuss the views of some “early” authors which trinitarian apologists often appeal to: Athenagoras of Athens and Melito of Sardis.

I show you how to refute any claim that some early author is a trinitarian using these three requirements for being trinitarian:

Each and every known theologian in this period fails to have at least one of these requirements for being trinitarian. That is why the trinitarian “gold” projected onto these early texts by trinitarian apologists ends up being non-trinitarian “fool’s gold.”

Finally, when you realize that our surviving sources from this era are by Logos theorists, you may infer that most Christians in this era were Logos theorists. I explain why this is a mistake.

Here is AI-image-riddled video version at the UCA YouTube channel:

Links for this episode:

podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know

Video version of podcast 381: Dale Tuggy at the 2024 UK International Conference

Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology?

Litwa, trans., Refutation of All Heresies

Thomas Gaston, at the 2024 UK International Conference: “Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology”

Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in New Zealand: “An Honest Evaluation of Evidence for the Deity of Christ”

Susanne Lakin at the 2024 UCA Conference in Arkansas: “Biblical Anthropomorphism – Evidence of a Unipersonal God”

Sean Finnegan at the 2024 UCA Conference in Little Rock: “Isaiah 9:6 Explained: A Theophoric Approach”

This week’s thinking music is “I Got to Go Now (Instrumental)” by Anthem of Rain.

At the start of this episode I have a very important announcement! Then you’ll hear day 2 – November 24, 2024 – of pastor Sean Finnegan and I fielding church history questions for New Zealand conference attendees.

Topics include: the only really trinitarian-sounding text in the New Testament (Matthew 28:19), the formation of the biblical canon, some ancient books which are not in any current-day Christian canon, books in the Catholic and Orthodox Bible but not in the Protestant ones, why some of these non-Protestant books can be useful for New Testament interpretation, the influences of Greek philosophy of catholic theologies, whether or not the idea of a tripersonal God is in pre-Christian pagan religions, the conservative nature of so-called fourth-century “Arianism” and where that name comes from, Arianism and Islam, how it came to be that “Arian” Christianity died out, present-day apologists’ demonstrably false claim that Christians have always been trinitarian and how we can know from the primary sources that this it is false,

Links for this episode:

Videos from the 2024 UK Internation UCA conference in Windsor

Restitutio podcast

Sean Finnegan, “Is Matthew 28.19 a Forgery?”

The Shepherd of Hermas

1 Clement

Barnabas

The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE)

The Development of the Canon of the New Testament

The Apocrypha

The Muratorian Fragment

McIntosh, ed. One God, Three Persons, Four Views: A Biblical, Theological, and Philosophical Dialogue on the Doctrine of the Trinity

Codex Vaticanus

Codex Sinaiaticus

a scholarly article on the Ethiopian Canon(s)

Sirach 24

Wisdom of Solomon 9

What John 1 Meant

How John 1 was intelligible in the first century

Dr. R.T. Mullins on “classical” (i.e. too Platonized) theism

Rowan Williams, Arius: Heresy and Tradition

Dale’s university lectures on Islam:

podcast 31 – Dr. William Hasker on the “Arian” Controversy

podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea

podcast 29 – Arius

Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome

Hanson, The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God: The Arian Controversy, 318-381

Clovis I

Emperor Justinian I

podcast 175 – Marcellus of Ancyra

Plotinus

podcast 5 – Anglicans Defending “Athanasius”

podcast 4 – Anglicans vs. “Athanasius”

podcast 3 – making Abelard cry

podcast 2 – the “Athanasian Creed”

Augustine

podcast 12 – the Apostles’ Creed

This week’s thinking music is “Red Dirt” by Mr. Smith.

This episode is a live Q&A session from the first ever UCA Conference in New Zealand, held in a beautiful lakeside conference center in Cambridge. The venue was a 15-minute walk from where I stayed. The view from there was this!

Topics discussed include: unitarians throughout church history, Eusebius of Caesarea and his Church History, Theodotus of Byzantium, Artemon, Paul of Samosata, Photinus of Sirmium, the biblical canon in the early church, Athanasius, Arius and the so-called “Arian” controversy, the 325 council at Nicea, alternate readings of Matthew 28:19 in the works of Eusebius, Origen’s doctrine of God’s eternal generation of the Logos, Novatian of Rome, the influences of Platonic thought on early theology, pre-Nicene subordinationism, Plato’s Timaeus and his idea of the Demiurge (Craftsman), the idea of creation through one or more intermediaries, gnostic ideas about creation, Irenaeus and his Against Heresies, whether the idea of the Trinity comes from Greek philosophy, pagan and early Christian triadological speculations, changing meanings of the word “Trinity” (Greek: trias, Latin: trinitas) and when the term became popular, ancient subordinationists as unitarian Christians, the trinitarian idea that they were sort of trying to express belief in the Trinity, American congregationalist unitarians, William Ellery Channing, the idea of dividing unitarian Christians into “Socinians” and “Arians,” the historical events leading up to the Nicene Creed, the new controversial word homoousios (same essense or substance), the decree of Theodosius I and the 381 council which ended the Nicene controversy, the 381 “Nicene Creed” as the first implicitly trinitarian creed, the mainstream theological scene in the 100s and 200s, the idea that purely Hebraic apostolic thought was superseded by Greek thought, divine impassibility, timelessness, and simplicity, Numenius, first and second century crises in Israel, Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho, Epiphanius of Salamis, ancient Jewish Christians, and the idea of Restorationism.

The opinions expressed here are only those of the presenters, and do not represent official positions of the UCA. For those, see this.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

restitutio.org

Living Hope International Ministries – LHIM

Williams, The Radical Reformation, 3rd edition

Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: The Earliest Christology? (video)

podcast 176 – Photinus of Sirmium – Trinities

McDonald, The Biblical Canon

Text and Canon Institute

Eusebius, The Church History, Ecclesiastical Theology, Oration in Praise of Constantine

Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament

podcast 347 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 1 – Almost Pope

podcast 348 – Novatian’s On the Trinity – Part 2 – Two Thieves and Three Arguments

Origen, On First Principles

Brakke, The Gnostics: Myth, Ritual, and Diversity in Early Christianity

podcast 167 – Lamson’s History of The Unitarian Congregationalists

podcast 308 – Channing’s “Unitarian Christianity” – Part 1

podcast 309 – Channing’s “Unitarian Christianity” – Part 2

podcast 30 – The Council of Nicea

Tuggy, What is the Trinity?

Tuggy, “When and How in the History of Theology Did the Triune God Replace the Father as the Only True God?“

Dale’s 2024 presentation at the UK International Conference: podcast 381 – Mainstream Christian Theologies in the year 240: What Trinitarian Apologists Don’t Know

History of the Early Christadelphians

This week’s thinking music is “for the glory of” by Dirk Dehler.

In videos like this one and this one, trinitarian apologists continue to push false narratives about the history of mainstream Christian theologies, like these (ordered from least to most plausible):

In this historical presentation, focusing on passages from Tertullian, Origen, and Novatian, I explain the actual early history of mainstream Christian theologies. Each of these three authors is a logos theorist, and I explain how they think God and the Logos (aka “the second god”) differ. “Subordinationism” is a feature, not a bug of these theologies; it is how they stay monotheistic despite positing multiple “divine” beings–only one “god” is strictly speaking a god. Each writer implies that logos theory was in their day a minority view; it seems that logos theories were at first popular among the “elite” and were widely rejected by other Christians. Each of these writers describes Christians who disagree with their Logos speculations. Since Harnack historians have called these Dynamic Monarchians and Modalistic Monarchians. Using the stick figures first deployed here, I explain the differences between these three mainstream Christian theologies, and between each of them and the trinitarian theology that was demanded by the mainstream starting in 381. Finally, I take a stab out outlining the actual early history of Christian theologies, starting with Dynamic Monarchianism and ending with the hegemony of trinitarianism.

Because of the many slides (and stick figures) I recommend the video version:

Thanks to Brandon Duke for editing the video and to Mark Cain for expertly cleaning up the lecture audio! Finally, my sincerest thanks to the tireless UK International Conference committee whose hard work made this encouraging meeting possible. Watch the UCA blog for an announcement of the next UK international conference!

Links for this episode:

Thomas Gaston, Dynamic Monarchianism: the Earliest Christology?

Unitarian Christian Alliance

podcast 281 – Introducing the Unitarian Christian Alliance

Clarifying Catholic Christologies

podcast 270 – Origen’s “one God”

von Harnack on logos theories and mystery

Evolution of the Trinity – with Bill Schlegel

podcast 262 – The Trinity before Nicea?

Hurtado on the early worship of Jesus

Craig: how Nicene orthodoxy rules out the full deity of Christ

Origen on the Challenge to Jesus is God Apologists

trinitarian or unitarian? 7 – Origen uncensored

Origen, Paul, and Peter: Christians worship the Jews’ god

Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 1

Rufinus’s corruption of Origen’s On First Principles – Part 2

podcast 24 – How to be a Monotheistic Trinitarian

This week’s thinking music is “Blood (Instrumental)” by Anthem of Rain.

To understand a book as its author intended, you don’t look to its future, but rather to its past. What has this author read, and what could he presuppose his audience to have read? These other pieces of literature are like tools in the author’s hands.

The biblical book of Proverbs famously features a vivid personification, Lady Wisdom. She pleads with people to seek and find her, and she even appears alongside God when he is creating. As Dr. Dustin Smith explains, this character appears in a number of later ancient Jewish writings in various ways, and can even be described as “incarnate” in certain people. Many of these would have been accessible both to the author of John and his audience.

Paul famously writes that Christ is “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24). But as James Dunn has observed, this idea of Christ as God’s wisdom is more prominent in John than in any other New Testament book. Drawing on an impressive array of recent scholarship, in Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John Dr. Dustin Smith argues that “the Johannine Jesus is incarnate Wisdom and that this christological presentation permeates all twenty-one chapters of the Fourth Gospel” (p. 213).

In this new discussion we focus on the basics of “wisdom christology” and on how that idea sheds light on the famous opening to the fourth gospel, John 1:1-18.

Links for this episode:

Smith, Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John

Smith, The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus

Transfigured: Dr. Dustin Smith – Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John

previous trinities podcast episodes with Dustin Smith

Unitarian Christian Alliance

podcast 301 – Dr. Daniel Boyarin on John 1

podcast 295 – James Martineau on John 1

John A. T. Robinson on “the Word” of John 1

How John 1 was intelligible in the first century

podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant

This week’s thinking music is “Spacedust” by airtone.