Trinities

In this second part (part 1 here) you'll hear the mutual interrogation portion of the EPS session on book One God, Three Persons, Four Views, with plenty of commentary by me and some extra relevant audio. This portion of the session contains a number of interesting exchanges. Among them:

Craig urges, as he did in part 1, that most ancient people either lacked a concept of numerical identity (represented in modern logics by the symbol =) or at least that they did not have a modern grasp of that concept, so that they could explain it like this. You will hear in this episode how he came to this conviction. In his view this is a simple argument by which to show that any unitarian interpretation of the New Testament (i.e. any one on which the authors hold that the unique God and the Father are one and the same), is an historical anachronism, and so needn't be taken seriously.

I push back both in the session and in the commentary here, urging via a thought-experiment and via examination of a couple of New Testament passages (John 7:41-42 and Luke 24:13-35), that ordinary ancient people did have a concept of same-thing-as or numerical identity. I also show, using some additional conference audio, that Craig is committed to their having that concept by the view he attributes to the authors of Scripture and to the Pre-Nicene "fathers" that God is the creator of absolutely everything else.

Links for this episode:

Part 1

Reasonable Faith podcast episode: Dr. Craig's Health Update

Tuggy, "Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection"

podcast 248 – How Trinity theories conflict with the Bible

McIntosh review of Craig, God Over All and Craig, God and Abstract Objects (website)

Craig, Cadbury Lectures: "God Over All" (2015) playlist

Papers by Peter van Inwagen

This week's thinking music is "Cardboard Engineering" by Jesse Spillane.

In this episode you'll hear the four opening speeches in a book session at the Evangelical Philosophical Society conference in San Antonio, Texas in November of 2023. The book is One God, Three Persons, Four Views, edited by Chad McIntosh, forthcoming probably deep into 2024. (See UCA podcast #77 for the back story about the book.)

The speakers are the co-authors William Hasker (his paper presented by Dr. McIntosh), Beau Branson, William Lane Craig, and Dale Tuggy. Each one is supposed to explain what is distinctive about his approach to the Trinity. Dr. Hasker presents the basics of his three-self theory, focusing on his claim that the "Persons" really are "centers of consciousness" (selves). Dr. Branson explains his "Monarchical Trinitarianism," focusing on a number of linguistic distinctions, such as different meanings of "god." Dr. Craig briefly explains what he claims is a minimal and biblical Trinity theory and what he claims is an unproblematic model of the doctrine of the Trinity amounts to. He also urges that I have failed to rebut his case that Jesus "is God" (i.e. not identical with God, but rather that he has divine-Person divinity, as opposed to god-divinity). Finally, I present my unitarian Christian view, focusing on five of my twenty facts which favor the thesis that the New Testament authors are unitarian over the thesis that those authors are trinitarian.

I provide an opinionated running commentary on the presentations . . . and a few sound effects.

Next time: interactions between the four panelists, and some extra information about Craig's claim that the New Testament authors had no concept (or no clear grasp of the concept) of identity, which is how he hopes to refute any understanding of New Testament theology on which the one God and the Father are one and the same.

Links for this episode:

Tim Stratton and Free Thinking Ministries

Reading comprehension quiz: Johann 17:1-3

podcast 227 – Who Should Christians Worship?

podcast 28 – Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God – Part 2

podcast 27 – Interview with Dr. William Hasker about his Metaphysics and the Tripersonal God – Part 1

podcast 78 – Mr. Chad McIntosh on the Trinity as a Functional Person

God as a functional Person

Kapusta, Scripturae Contra Trinitatem - The Epistle to the Hebrews: An Anthology of Quotations, Alternative Expositions, and Critical Commentaries on Common Trinitarian Proof-Texts

podcast 351 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 2

podcast 350 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 1

podcast 349 – Craig-Tuggy dialogue on trinitarian vs. unitarian theologies

Mahaparinibbana Sutta

podcast 246 – Response to Branson Part 4 – the shortcomings of “monarchical trinitarianism”

podcast 245 – Response to Branson Part 3 – Dueling Definitions

podcast 244 – Response to Branson Part 2 – Early Orthodox Trinitarians

podcast 243 – Response to Branson Part 1 – The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity

This week's thinking music is "Into the J" by Admiral Bob.

In this episode Dr. Nemes and I discuss chapter 6 of his new book Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology.

Clearly the Jesus of the New Testament is supposed to be special, indeed, unique, and in some sense he must be "divine." But in what sense, exactly? And what if anything does this have to do with God's giving Jesus his spirit?

Topics include:

Links for this episode:

podcast 370 – Dr. Steven Nemes’s formal challenge to Trinity theories

Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology

Dr. Nemes’s homepage

A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me

podcast 334 – “Who do you say I am?”

podcast 338 – What John 1 Meant

podcast 291 – From one God to two gods to three “Gods” – John 1 and early Christian theologies

Racovian Catechism

podcast 188 – Dr. Paul W. Newman’s Spirit Christology – Part 2

podcast 187 – Dr. Paul W. Newman’s Spirit Christology – Part 1

Clarifying Catholic Christologies - by Dr. Dale Tuggy

podcast 235 – The Case Against Preexistence

a reading of Philippians 2:5-11

podcast 268 – Another look at Philippians 2 with Dr. Dustin Smith

podcast 145 – ‘Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!

Date & Tuggy, Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?

This week's thinking music is "Blood (Instrumental)" by Anthem of Rain.

The thing about objecting to Trinity theories is that they are many and different, and generally speaking mutually inconsistent, so that an objection which applies to one Trinity theory will not apply to others.

But in chapter 3 of his new book Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology, Dr. Steven Nemes gives a destructive tetralemma argument which applies to Trinity theories generally. This argument appeals only to the idea of ontological priority, then asking questions about the one ousia (substance, essence, nature) and the three hypostases ("Persons"): is (1) the ousia prior to the hypostases, or (2) are the hypostases prior to the ousia, or (3) are these all distinct but none is "before" or "after" any other, or (4) are the ousia and the hypostases not distinct (and so none is "before" or "after" any other)?

These are arguably all the options. But whichever way the trinitarian turns, it looks like his choice results in inconsistency with something else he's committed to, such as divine simplicity or divine "processions."

Dr. Nemes in effect is issuing a challenge to catholic theologians: how can you pick one of those four options and yet not contradict other theses to which you're committed?

At the end of the episode, we discuss another argument, which is a 2-case dilemma. Does the divine nature imply or include tripersonality, or not? Either way, there would seem to serious problems for the trinitarian!

Links for this episode:

Dr. Nemes's homepage

Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology

Orthodoxy and Heresy

Theological Authority in the Church: Reconsidering Traditionalism and Hierarchy

Theology of the Manifest: Christianity without Metaphysics

Eating Christ’s Flesh: A Case for Memorialism

podcast 355 – Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories – Part 2

podcast 354 – Dr. Steven Nemes on Trinity theories – Part 1

Brower and Rea, "Material Constitution and the Trinity"

Tuggy, "Constitution Trinitarianism: An Appraisal"

Tuggy, "Divine deception, identity, and Social Trinitarianism"

Tuggy, "Antiunitarian Arguments from Divine Perfection" (on arguments that if there is one divine Person then there must be exactly three)

This week's thinking music is "PHENIX" by Koi-Discovery.

Biblical unitarians often face the stock objection that according to us Jesus is a "mere man"--that is, a human who is not also divine, disparagingly described as "mere." This objection assumes that a human only Jesus couldn't possibly do all that is ascribed to him in the New Testament.

But as Anna Shoffner Brown shows in this insightful original presentation from the 2022 UCA Conference in Ohio, the biblical teaching that humankind is made in God's image means that we, and so the human Jesus, can represent God and work on his behalf on the earth.

We mustn't think too highly of human beings, but also, we mustn't think too lowly of a race of beings who are made in God's image.

Links for this episode:

the original video (other videos from the 2022 UCA Conference)

UCA Podcast 6. Working at the Colson Center - Anna Brown (all UCA Podcast episodes)

The 2023 UCA Conference in Springfield, Ohio

Compass Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky

LHIM - Living Hope International Ministries

Christ Before Creeds - Dale Tuggy, Sean Finnegan, Anna Brown & Jeff Deuble

podcast 335 – Pastor Jeff Deuble’s Christ Before Creeds

Restitutio Podcast 408 Christ before Creeds Book (Jeff Deuble)

This week's thinking music is "Southfolk 1st Division" by Marco Trovatello.

In the famous creation scene in Genesis God says,

"Let us make man in our image and likeness."

Genesis 1:26

About such passages trinitarian theologian Dr. Fred Sanders writes,

Outside of the New Testament’s revelation of the Trinity, it’s hard to make sense of the singular/plural dichotomy in these passages. Engaging them with a trinitarian understanding sheds new light on their possible implications.

(source)

Sanders also notes something surprising about the main word we translate as "God" in the Hebrew Bible:

While the word Elohim has the distinct im ending that marks it as plural, Elohim seems to be an agent of singular verb actions. It would be irresponsible to translate Elohim as gods as in “In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.” So it seems that this name of God that is plural in nature could also point to the coming New Testament revelation of the Trinity.

(source)

Is Dr. Sanders correct? Or is there something else going on here?

In this illuminating presentation from the 2022 UCA Conference, Dr. Dustin Smith explains that there is something else going on here: a general linguistic device found in ancient Hebrew and in some other ancient languages. In light of this information, these (to us) unexpected plural forms neither demand nor even hint at multiple persons in God.

If you want to hear more quality presentations like this, meet and fellowship with other unitarian Christians, and take part in practical workshops, please join us at the 2023 Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference in Springfield, Ohio October 19-21, 2023.

Links for this episode:

Dr. Smith's Biblical Unitarian Podcast

the original UCA video of this lecture

videos from the 2022 UCA Conference

podcast 268 – Another look at Philippians 2 with Dr. Dustin Smith

podcast 119 – The Son of God 3 – Dr. Dustin Smith’s “Socinian” view of Jesus

podcast 62 – Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John

podcast 61 – Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought

Unitarian Christian Alliance

This week's thinking music is "We are now" by Marco Trovatello.

In this episode you'll hear my edit of the second, longer half of this excellent debate: two rounds of cross-examinations, closing statements, and audience Q&A.

Which side surprised you? What arguments here struck you as important? Did either side make important mistakes? Which side made the overall strongest case? Leave us a comment below.

And after you listen you can check out the post-debate reflections of Barlow and Smith on Transfigured:

And see the first two links below, where Sean Finnegan and Brandon Duke continue the argument on the Restitutio podcast, rebutting the arguments of the "pro" side in this debate.

Links for this episode:

491 Refuting Kyle Essary’s Case That Jesus Is Yahweh

492 Refuting Samuel Nesan’s Case That Jesus Is Yahweh

Marlon Wilson’s YouTube channel The Gospel Truth

the original debate video: Dustin Smith/William Barlow Vs Samuel Nesan/Kyle Essary: Jesus is Yahweh? EP 263

Biblical Unitarian Podcast

Samuel Nesan

Dr. Kyle Essary

Compass Christian Church in Louisville

Will Barlow – Biblical Unitarian Church Planter

Jude 5: Did Jesus deliver the people out of Egypt?

Montana

A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me

podcast 264 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 2

podcast 263 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 1

Unitarian Christian Alliance

podcast 124 – a challenge to “Jesus is God” apologists

This week’s thinking music is "Strength of Knowing" by Jesse Spillane.

Is the Jesus of the Bible Yahweh himself? That's the question of this excellent debate.

It's two vs. two, with the pro side being Dr. Kyle Essary and Samuel Nesan, and the con side being Dr. Dustin Smith and pastor Will Barlow.

If you're trying to make up your mind, it will help you to work through this debate, evaluating each side's arguments for yourself.

This episode is roughly the first half of the debate: the rest of it will be episode 367.

Links for this episode:

Marlon Wilson's YouTube channel The Gospel Truth

the original debate video: Dustin Smith/William Barlow Vs Samuel Nesan/Kyle Essary: Jesus is Yahweh? EP 263

Biblical Unitarian Podcast

Samuel Nesan

Dr. Kyle Essary

Compass Christian Church in Louisville

Will Barlow - Biblical Unitarian Church Planter

A letter from the Lord Jesus: About God and Me

podcast 264 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 2

podcast 263 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 1

Unitarian Christian Alliance

This week's thinking music is "Admiral funk" by sparky.

This episode is a short informal talk I gave in October of 2019 at a missions conference put on by Kingdom of God Ministry and Missions.

After explaining some ways that theological debates relate to evangelism, I then discuss some "ear closers," factors which prevent the unitarian Christian perspective from being heard. Debates, I suggest, bypass those.

I also explain the usefulness of debates, and why they can help some people, even while being detrimental to other people.

In Q&A following my talk I field mostly practical questions.

Below are links to most of my previous debates, as well as to some other things mentioned in this episode.

Links for this episode:

Kingdom of God Ministry and Missions

Dale's college lectures on Islam

podcast 232 – Trinity Club Orientation

Evolution of the Trinity – with Bill Schlegel

podcast 9 – post-debate interview with Pastor Steve Katsaras

podcast 8 – post-debate interview with Mr. Shahir Naga

podcast 7 – post-debate interview with Dr. Bernie Power

podcast 6 – the “Jesus: Prophet, Messiah, God?” Debate in Melbourne, Australia

podcast 300 – Does the New Testament teach Trinity Monotheism? – with Dale Glover – Part 2

podcast 299 – Does the New Testament teach Trinity Monotheism? – with Dale Glover – Part 1

podcast 351 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 2

podcast 350 – Thoughts on my Dialogue with Craig on the Trinity and the Bible – Part 1

podcast 349 – Craig-Tuggy dialogue on trinitarian vs. unitarian theologies

podcast 340 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 2

podcast 339 – Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is truly divine? – Loke vs. Tuggy – Part 1

podcast 119 – The Son of God 3 – Dr. Dustin Smith’s “Socinian” view of Jesus

podcast 118 – The Son of God 2 – Mr. Danny Andre Dixon’s “Arian” view of Jesus

podcast 117 – The Son of God 1 – Dr. Lee Irons’s trinitarian view of Jesus

podcast 122 – 7 Christians on 4 questions in the “same god” controversy

podcast 121 – Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? Part 2

podcast 120 – Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? Part 1

podcast 250 – Tuggy vs. Brown debate – audience Q&A

podcast 249 – Tuggy vs. Brown debate – The God of the Bible is the Father alone

podcast 264 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 2

podcast 263 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 1

This week's thinking music is "The Blue Remix File" by JGSH616.

In a thought-provoking recent episode released before this Easter, analytic theologian Dr. R.T. Mullins suggested three reasons God would have to become incarnate, building on work by Swinburne and McConnell.

The one he focuses the most on in the idea that God would be obligated to become incarnate so that he can suffer along with us, his beloved creatures.

In this episode I evaluate those three reasons using Scripture and reason. I argue that we can have the theological goods Dr. Mullins wants at a better price.

Which case did you find more convincing, and why?

Links for this episode:

Dr. Mullins's website

The Reluctant Theologian Podcast Ep. 118. Why Did God Become Incarnate?

The Reluctant Theologian Podcast

his publications

Richard Swinburne @ trinities

Swinburne, The Resurrection of God Incarnate

Swinburne, Was Jesus God?

Francis J. McConnell, The Diviner Immanence

three-self Trinity theories

one-self Trinity theories

podcast 226 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 3 – post-biblical uses of biblical words, and new words

podcast 225 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 2 – Old “Lord” vs. New “Lord”

podcast 224 – Biblical Words for God and for his Son Part 1 – God and “God” in the Bible

podcast 277 – Was Christ tempted in every way?

TheoLogica

podcast 344 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 2

podcast 343 – Craig’s Contradictory Christ – Part 1

"What John 1 Meant"

a reading of Philippians 2:5-11

podcast 264 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 2

podcast 263 – Tuggy vs. Date debate – Jesus is human and not divine – Part 1

podcast 323 – Did God die on the cross?

podcast 333 – The Arguments of “God’s Death”

podcast 146 – Jesus as an Exemplar of Faith in the New Testament

"Jesus as an exemplar of faith in the New Testament"

podcast 145 – ‘Tis Mystery All: the Immortal dies!

John 1:1-14; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 12:2; Revelation 5:1-14; Romans 5:1-10; Hebrews 2:17; John 3:34; Philippians 2:6-10; 1 Corinthians 15:12-58; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; Isaiah 41:8; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 5:1-10; Matthew 10:29; Matthew 3:17; Matthew 17:5; Romans 1:18-32; Revelation 5:9; Ephesians 3:12; John 8:40; John 1:29.

This week's thinking music is "What's on my Mind" by Ivan Chew.