Jeff Guntzel and Christina Warren, along with guest Bryan Guffey, dive deep into a capella groups, vibe coding, and AI tools. Mental health journeys and new therapies, plus tech tips, including the use of granola and the Limitless pendant for recording conversations. This is what happens when Brett’s not around.

Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at [macaudio.com/overtired][2]!

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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

In a hilariously ADHD (or just friendly chat) episode of Overtired, Christina wants everyone to know she’s definitely not an anarchist, while Brett and Jeff dive deep into the world of tech and political activism. Amid laughs and nostalgia, they discuss everything from the pitfalls of memory at work, lock boxes for protests, and the anarchist vs. black bloc debate, all while petting cats and reflecting on TV shows that keep them sane. Tune in for tech tips on carabiner and Kali Linux, and find out why Jeff treasures his time in the car with his sons. It’s chaotic, heartfelt, and genuinely overtired.

Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired!

You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network

BackBeat Media Podcast Network

Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

Undiagnosed Dialog

Introduction and Reunion

[00:00:00]

[00:00:04] Christina: Well, hello again. You’re listening to Overtired and the three of us are back. I’m Christina Warren and I’m joined. Yay. By all three of us, uh, or by my other two co-hosts, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns. Guntzel. Hey guys.

[00:00:17] Jeff: Hello.

[00:00:18] Brett: episodes in a row have we had? Three of us. Is it just two?

[00:00:22] Christina: I think this is

[00:00:22] Brett: like a bunch,

[00:00:24] Christina: I think this is just two.

[00:00:26] Jeff: Not enough

[00:00:27] Brett: have such, I have such a short memory.

Memory Lapses and Work Challenges

[00:00:30] Brett: Like as far as I’m concerned, we’ve never missed an episode with all three of us. Like I, I don’t wanna talk too much about work, but that’s bitten me at work. The fact that I don’t remember, like last week,

[00:00:43] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I have to, like, I, I, I tend to have a good memory, but sometimes I’ll forget certain things. And so in that regard, I have to like, um. Like write things down, like keep like a running list of like, these are things you need to do, these are things you [00:01:00] have done. Like these are things you didn’t get to do.

[00:01:02] Christina: Whatever.

[00:01:03] Brett: This is not my gratitude pick, but I’ve started making liberal use of timing the app. Um, ’cause it tracks like what document I have open for how long. And I can, like, I can just, I can drag a whole bunch of different, uh, stuff like, uh, documents, websites, et cetera, into one task. Um, because I am currently in a position where I have to report my, my workday to people and, um, so I can, I can easily scrap together, uh, a daily report and then I, it pops up and asked me what I was doing when I was away from my computer so I can write like, surprise visit from the utilities company that took half an hour.

[00:01:55] Brett: Um.

Utility Guy Story

[00:01:56] Brett: Dude showed up at my house, just pulled into the [00:02:00] driveway and started banging on shit. And I walked out and I was like, Hey, what’s up? And he said that the meter reader had reported tight wires.

[00:02:15] Jeff: That sounds like an amazing code in like the Cold War. Cold War, the meter reader has recorded tight wires. Got it. I’ll meet you at the place

[00:02:25] Brett: So he was, he was pulling on shit, banging shit. And,

[00:02:30] Jeff: to loosen the wires.

[00:02:31] Brett: and ultimately he said, and I quote, I’m not gonna fuck with it. Um,

[00:02:37] Jeff: just, you just bang on it for a.

[00:02:40] Brett: well, he was like seeing like, are these wires tight? Um, and like I, my, my, uh, power comes in. I have like a rooftop, not an antenna, but like a post. That it’s all overhead, uh, power that comes in from the [00:03:00] cables on the street into the top of my house and down in, and that mast, I guess we would call it, um, has started to lean.

[00:03:08] Brett: It’s at about a 15 degree angle and it is not currently pulling up any roofing tiles. Um, but he said, you should probably keep an eye on that. And I said, oh, it’s been in that angle since I moved in, so I never gave it a second thought. But yeah, that’s not a great sign.

[00:03:29] Jeff: That’s not a great sign.

[00:03:30] Christina: No, not at all. Not at all. I just shared this thing in our chat. Um, ma made me think of this not so much about, you know, like the, uh, utility guy, like banging on your door and just being like random and like, I’m just checking stuff out and you’re like, what the fuck?

Flipper Zero and Productivity Tools

[00:03:42] Christina: Um, but, but in terms of keeping track of time and like busy things, there’s, uh, so you guys are familiar with Flipper Zero, right?

[00:03:49] Jeff: Well, what’s funny yes. Is you, you sent this, I looked at it, I’m like, it looks like a flipper. And then saw that it was a flipper device.

[00:03:54] Christina: Yeah, so, so, so, so the flip,

[00:03:56] Brett: this before.

[00:03:57] Christina: So the Flipper Zero people just launched like [00:04:00] two days ago, like this new thing called, um, a busy bar. And, and it’s a little expensive, um, but it’s, you know, fully open and hackable and whatnot, so that’s pretty cool. Um, but it’s basically, it’s, it’s like, um, it’s, they’re calling it like a, a productivity multi-tool with like an LED pixel display.

[00:04:18] Christina: And so it can integrate with software both on the desktop where that you write for it. And it includes like an offline API and stuff, JavaScript and Python, so that you can, it can be like an on air sign, um, and, and do shit like that. So like, if you’re recording a podcast, you could have it like outside your office and it would show like, Hey, I’m like.

[00:04:33] Christina: Recording, but you can also have like, has like a button on it that you can like press and start and pause to have like a, a pdo, you know, type of thing. But it can also, I guess, probably work with other types of tools where you’re customizing things so you could like, you know, show like how much time you have left of a task or whatever.

[00:04:50] Christina: I don’t necessarily know if this would be useful for you, Brett, but I saw this the other day

[00:04:54] Brett: it’s a fun toy.

[00:04:55] Christina: it’s a fun toy. Yeah.

ADHD Conversations and Podcast Dynamics

[00:04:57] Brett: For, for the listeners, I [00:05:00] will, um, acknowledge that our topic list this week has zero items on it. We all showed up

[00:05:07] Jeff: I don’t think people need to know that it’s not it.

[00:05:09] Brett: I, I feel like, I feel like it’s, I feel like it’s fair warning that this is gonna be just an a DHD conversation with zero limitations, zero guidance. We’re just gonna, we’re, we’re gone with the flow.

[00:05:23] Jeff: I’m gonna argue with calling in an A DHD conversation ’cause I think it’s just gonna be a chat between friends.

[00:05:28] Christina: Yeah, I think so.

[00:05:30] Jeff: We don’t have to, we don’t have to diagnose

[00:05:32] Brett: it’s like

[00:05:33] Christina: I was

[00:05:33] Brett: it’s not a gay wedding, it’s just a wedding.

[00:05:36] Christina: well, exactly, exactly, because like every conversation with like the three of us, it’s gonna be an a DH ADHD conversation. You should just know that going in. So this is just a convo amongst friends. Like, I don’t feel like we need to, again, like to, to, to Jeff’s point, we don’t need to diagnose this.

[00:05:49] Christina: We don’t need to like pathologize it like just a fucking convo. Um.

[00:05:54] Jeff: podcast. It will be bullshitting. Welcome to

[00:05:56] Brett: So here’s, here’s what makes an A DHD [00:06:00] conversation to me is my partner is autistic and is all about deep dives. Um, they like to, if a topic comes up that they’re interested in, they wanna drill down on it and they want to, like, they could talk about the same thing for the length of the party, like all the way through.

[00:06:22] Brett: And for me as an A DHD person, I’m much more surface level. Like I wanna, like a topic reminds me of another topic, reminds me of a personal experience, reminds me of something I wanted to tell somebody. And like I just kind of skim along the surface. And it’s not to say I don’t enjoy like depth to things, but my mode of conversation is much more skimming and I guarantee you.

[00:06:52] Brett: That unless Christina goes down a K hole for some reason, which could happen, um, UN unless that [00:07:00] happens, we’re just gonna jump around. It’s gonna be a bunch of topics and to me that’s an A DHD conversation versus maybe a normal or autistic conversation.

[00:07:11] Jeff: It’s, it’s such a limited spectrum of options. Like I, I am just gonna say that I am gonna sit in my, I like to talk about a lot of things and whether I have a diagnosis or not, that’s just me talking about a lot of things. But it’s fine. It’s fine, it’s fine. Let’s do it.

[00:07:27] Christina: have interest. It’s fine. Um,

[00:07:29] Jeff: call this, let’s have it.

[00:07:30] Christina: yep. All right.

Mental Health Corner: Brett’s Turn

[00:07:32] Christina: Let’s start with, uh, with, with Mental Health Corner. Who wants to go first?

[00:07:35] Jeff: Hmm. Rock, paper, scissors.

[00:07:38] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:38] Brett: I can kick it off.

[00:07:39] Christina: All right. Kick us off Brett.

[00:07:40] Brett: Overall life is really hard right now. Um, I have found solace in, um, so I’ve been writing a, uh, Lauren Ipsum generator that is easily, um, adapted [00:08:00] to different styles.

[00:08:02] Brett: Like there used to be like a bacon lipson generator and a hip sum, uh, like a hipster lips sum generator.

[00:08:10] Jeff: someone that made one outta Metallica lyrics.

[00:08:13] Brett: can do that. I just made a 19 84 1 this morning. Um, it’s super

[00:08:19] Jeff: outta transcripts of this podcast.

[00:08:21] Christina: Oh my

[00:08:21] Brett: you go.

[00:08:22] Christina: I was gonna say, I was like, I was, I was like, I’m gonna make a tailor of some gen. I’m sure. I’m sure someone already has, but Yeah, I should, yeah.

[00:08:28] Brett: Yeah, like I, I’ve been using chat GPT, I’m, I’m just like, give me 100 plural nouns related to this topic and then like pacing them into the configuration files. And it’s a, it’s a pretty damn good Lauren MSO generator. I’m publishing it as a gem, um, um, that can be used as a library, but also comes with a binary and I’m incorporating it into my MD Lipsom project that outputs [00:09:00] markdown Laura sso.

[00:09:01] Brett: Um, but I have found solace in that. That’s like, I wake up at between two and four in the morning and I code on that and it’s like the only comfortable part of my day while I’m coding that I can forget about. Um, I can forget about the last email from my manager, and it is, it’s all I have right now.

[00:09:32] Jeff: That’s awesome. You caused me to look up, uh, a list of Lauren Ipsum, uh, generators, and I’d like to just, I’d like to just share a few, if that, if that’s, uh, okay. We’ve got the, um, Obama Ipsum, which, which fills out a paragraph as that is the true genius of America, A faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles.

[00:09:52] Jeff: Okay, that’s one. We’ve got a, uh, busi as in Gary Busi,

[00:09:56] Christina: in Gary.

[00:09:57] Jeff: uh, which is [00:10:00] Busi Ipso. Ah, met. Have you urinated, have you drained your bladder? Are you free? Because if you haven’t, it will only come out later. I’m giving you some information that your bodily fluids may penetrate your clothing fibers without warning.

[00:10:10] Jeff: That’s that

[00:10:10] Brett: that’s very thematic.

[00:10:13] Jeff: Let’s, uh, let’s pick, let’s just pick one more please. Hold on, please. Hold on. Um, let’s see. We got Sagan, uh, we got Heisenberg. Um, we’ve got, uh, tuna journo. Okay. Anyway, you get it. It’s a lot of fun. Uh, I’ll put this list in the,

[00:10:30] Brett: So, yeah, and I made this, I made this tool that I’m making, you can add user dictionaries to it. So anything that you can compile, you have to each, there, there are a bunch of text files and each one is a part of speech. You get your articles, you get your, uh, verbs, your plural verbs, your singular verbs, et cetera.

[00:10:55] Brett: And, um, and you just, you fill in all of those [00:11:00] files and you’ve created a dictionary that then you can call by its directory name and. This is outside of the GEM Configuration directory, so it’s completely static for the user

[00:11:14] Jeff: Can I.

[00:11:15] Brett: anyone who makes a good, a good one. I’ll add to the default repo

[00:11:21] Jeff: So the question is what makes, uh, an app cross the line into being a Brett turp app? And the answer is, it starts with the sentence I made it so you can add your own blank.

[00:11:33] Brett: that is, that is a principle I learned from TechMate up until I switched to Mac and started using TechMate. I had never. Really experienced the idea of extensibility. I had used Home Seer and I had developed like visual basic scripts for home automation, and that was, that was technically a extensibility, but this idea that you could [00:12:00] actually change the way an app functions and add your own features to an app blew me away.

[00:12:06] Brett: Um, like a ogar became my hero because like his whole focus was extensibility. It was the giving power to his, admittedly very technical user base. But

[00:12:21] Christina: Right.

[00:12:22] Brett: I just got a review on set about basically how it was too complicated to configure, marked and set up. Set only allows a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Um, so it, it was a thumbs down.

[00:12:40] Brett: Um, and he, dude, in this review, he listed at least four bugs that I wish he had reported through the bug tracker, but they were admittedly real bugs, so I’m not mad at him.

[00:12:56] Christina: Well, no, I mean, and honestly, I’m sorry. We can’t [00:13:00] expect users to go through official bug reporting channels. Like, unless you make it super fucking easy. Like where people know, like as part of onboarding where a bug

[00:13:08] Brett: when you’re on Set App or the Mac App store, it just, it isn’t easy

[00:13:13] Christina: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. And, and frankly, like book reporting is a hard problem to solve and like you, and you

[00:13:19] Brett: If you go to

[00:13:20] Christina: you can.

[00:13:21] Brett: if you go to the help menu and Mark, there’s a submit a, uh, submit an issue item that will take you directly to the ticket site. But yeah, that’s not obvious to your average end user, so yeah, I get it. The most common review I get on Set App is, um, when I create a new file, it’s just a blank page and I can’t type into it, even though the Descript is very clearly, clearly this is a previewer, not an editor,

[00:13:56] Christina: Right, right. Well, but the

[00:13:58] Brett: in the title [00:14:00] of

[00:14:00] Christina: no, and, and, and I, and, and you’re not wrong, but you know, people don’t read. It might have to be one of those things that, like, even as a popup, like if you’re getting enough of that, even on the setup version where you can say, you know, note

[00:14:13] Brett: Yeah, there’s a whole splash intro screen. There’s a, there’s like a whole first time you launch it, it explains all of this. These people are clearly just canceling out of the splash intro screen. And then trying to do what they, for some reason, assume it should do because they saw the word markdown in it and just plus it’s set up.

[00:14:37] Brett: You didn’t pay for this shit, like, not directly. Anyway.

[00:14:42] Christina: Yeah. I mean, never underestimate how entitled people are about stuff, right? Because in their mind they’re like, well, I pay for setup and everything I get on this should be valuable, otherwise I’m gonna cancel my, you know what I mean? Like,

[00:14:53] Brett: I don’t, I don’t hate that idea. I, I think setup should be a curated set of [00:15:00] apps that should work and do what they say. You just should read what they say they do. If, and this, this last review that I’m talking about, he clearly knew what Mark did. And like I said, I’m not mad at him. He,

[00:15:16] Christina: No, he reported a bunch of bugs, which are good. Yeah.

[00:15:18] Brett: Um, and it’s useful information. Uh, it does bum me out to get negative reviews in general, but yeah, as far as negative reviews go, this one was legit.

[00:15:30] Christina: Are you able to, um, uh, respond and at least be like, thank, thank you for the, you know, the, the, the, the bug reports. Um, I’d like to.

[00:15:39] Brett: I always wait a day before I respond to a negative review just so I can like, absorb and like what I’m telling you right now is what I should reply with. Um, when I first got the review, my response was, yeah, it’s a complicated app. Of course it’s complex to set [00:16:00] up.

[00:16:00] Jeff: Is this a good time to talk about your text expander expansion for, for responding to people who complain about the app?

[00:16:06] Brett: Yeah, I feel like this, we have no topics. This whole thing could be one weird long mental health corner. I

[00:16:13] Jeff: the story. Tell the story of that. I don’t know if that’s been talked about in a long time

[00:16:16] Brett: Wait, which one?

[00:16:17] Jeff: you used to have a text expander snippet when you had to respond to somebody writing you and being mean about the app that I think you typed like fuck right off and then it expanded to a very like, diplomatic response.

[00:16:29] Jeff: I’m not sure

[00:16:30] Brett: Yeah. I don’t have that one anymore. I’ve lost it, but yeah, uh, I can, I had it so that I could type my instantaneous reaction and it would expand to you. Thank you for your feedback,

[00:16:45] Jeff: it’s a really, I mean that’s like a kind of a powerful move.

[00:16:49] Christina: Honestly, I was gonna say, like, I was gonna say like, so I, I can’t use Text Expander, um, at, at work, but I, I could probably use like the, the built-in, um, macros [00:17:00] thing, or I could find another, you know, macro tool to, to, to use. Um, we just can’t use other people cloud stuff. Um, on, on a

[00:17:08] Jeff: can use a Mac.

[00:17:09] Christina: Yes, yes. Can use a Mac, but it’s just third party.

[00:17:13] Brett: a Chrome pc,

[00:17:14] Jeff: Well, Chromebook.

[00:17:15] Christina: no. They, they, I mean, I, I mean they, they would like that I’m sure, but no, I, I was able to get a a, an M four, um, pro with 48 gigs of ram, um, only, um, 16 inch only, um, five 12 SSD, so that’s, you know, uh,

[00:17:32] Brett: My work computer is a 256 gigabyte Intel 12 inch MacBook Pro. Yeah.

[00:17:40] Jeff: Wow. Yeah.

[00:17:43] Christina: Um, yeah,

[00:17:45] Brett: Christina, you were saying you couldn’t use text

[00:17:48] Christina: Yeah, I couldn’t use, but I could use something similar and No, but that, that could be like a useful thing where like sometimes you see stuff and you’re like, okay, I’m just gonna type in like my default reaction and it’ll, you know, expand to something nicer. [00:18:00] Like, um, and, and that would be useful in, in certain like, actually plenty of non-work scenarios too.

[00:18:07] Christina: Like, I, I, I like that idea of being like, okay, go fuck yourself, can become I’m here. Your feedback and you know, I’ll take this

[00:18:15] Brett: I, uh, I mentioned this last episode, um, but I shadowed this person who currently administers the AI and data science blog and no longer, I now administer the AI and data science blog, and they had a Confluence page with all of their response snippets,

[00:18:41] Christina: yes,

[00:18:41] Brett: and it takes, like, it takes that page, I’m not kidding, 20 to 30 seconds to load.

[00:18:49] Brett: So you have to go to your bookmark. You wait 20 to 30 seconds, and then you manually copy the response out of the page, add it to [00:19:00] Wrike, which also takes 20 to 30

[00:19:02] Jeff: But gives you the time you need to breathe and settle down.

[00:19:07] Christina: Yeah. Cc?

[00:19:09] Brett: and then you paste it, and then you edit it. But with I, I copied that entire page into text. Expender

[00:19:15] Christina: Yep.

[00:19:16] Brett: added a bunch of fill-ins so that I could modify, like, based on the context of the reply. And I feel like this is exactly what text expander and text plays were made for is customer service replies,

[00:19:32] Christina: Oh, no, totally.

[00:19:34] Brett: what I’m doing.

[00:19:35] Christina: No. No, totally. I mean, and I think that’s why like text expander, like pivoted, like to the enterprise market and, and some of those other, you know, things have too because, and, and consumers always get pissed off about that ’cause they’re like, what do I have to pay for a subscription and why do I have to do this and that?

[00:19:48] Christina: And you’re like, I, I mean, I get it. Um, and, and there are, um, like there’s, um, who, who makes it text? Uh, it’s not text place. It’s, uh,

[00:19:56] Brett: Um, type ator.

[00:19:57] Christina: type in inter Yeah. Type it, which, um, if [00:20:00] I were going to use one, probably would be the one that I would be able to use at work. Like I, because I could make that work locally.

[00:20:05] Brett: no, there’s no cloud.

[00:20:07] Christina: Right. And so, and, and I have a license for it and it’s a great app. Um, also it’s lower resources, which sometimes matters like, it doesn’t matter like on my stuff, but it is lower resources. But like text expander. Yeah, you’re exactly right. Like for a customer service scenario where you have like a kind of a internal shared set of snippets that people can edit or just like take definition of an add to, like, you can imagine that if you’re in a call center or something, you have to have a tool like that, you know, in your responses.

[00:20:38] Christina: Well, who am I kidding? Is all about to be AI soon, but like, assuming you still have a call center staffed by, you know, pseudo humans. Like this is totally, whether you’re doing email responses or chat or tickets or whatever, like if you know that you have, you know, the, the top like, like 30 or 50 most, you know, common things like having [00:21:00] like that library of stuff that you can just auto insert, you know, with a few keys has to be very useful.

[00:21:07] Brett: I would like to take this opportunity to say that Text Blaze is a very good product and is very low resource. Um, I. Like, it doesn’t even show up on my activity monitor. It’s way down at the bottom and it has a few, I’ve like, it can’t expand after Whitespace the way text expander can, which has taken a lot of getting used to and it can’t run scripts, which is why I have been developing so many different APIs, like the Markdown Lipsom, API, because if I wanna, if I wanna alarm Ipso snippet, that’s truly dynamic.

[00:21:48] Brett: I need, it can, it can pull from a web API, but it can’t run a script locally. So I just build web

[00:21:56] Christina: So you, so you just, okay, so you’re, so basically

[00:21:58] Brett: which is not accessible to [00:22:00] every user.

[00:22:01] Christina: not at all. Not at all. Because most, most, most users are gonna be like, well, where am I hosting this? Or where is this being done? Or Do I have these API keys in my environment? Yeah. Um, but like, yeah. ’cause at that point, yeah. Um, is, is that like a design decision?

[00:22:13] Christina: Do you know, from their like perspective or?

[00:22:17] Brett: I think it’s just a shortcoming. Maybe they’ll get to it eventually. Um, I, the, the expand after spaces thing, I think is just a shortsighted,

[00:22:29] Christina: Yeah.

[00:22:29] Brett: um,

[00:22:30] Christina: That seems like a

[00:22:31] Brett: design. I think it seems like a design decision, but I think it was shortsighted, whatever it

[00:22:37] Jeff: Is there anything about it that you would say it does, that text expander doesn’t, that you like?

[00:22:45] Brett: Um, I had an answer to this question previously, but like when I, so Text Expander sponsored my blog for like a decade and, and I would [00:23:00] never use anything other than text Expander because they were so supportive of my work. Um, but then like Greg was. Greg left, retired, left the company, and when they reevaluated all their sponsorships, I didn’t make the cut and I don’t think they’re doing many sponsorships

[00:23:21] Christina: No, no, I, no, I, I, I think, yeah. ’cause yeah, they used to, you know, sponsor like my podcast back in the day and things like that too. Like, and it,

[00:23:28] Brett: then I started, yeah, I started exploring like other topics and a former employee of Text Expander was now working for Text Blaze and he got me in with a free, like enterprise level account. And at that time I felt it was important to let my readers know why I was even trying out text Blaze after a decade of evangelizing text expander.

[00:23:58] Brett: And I had all the [00:24:00] reasons, but I’ve forgotten them.

[00:24:03] Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think the resource thing is probably a good one. Like, again, like it’s not, it’s not a problem for a lot of people. I think the fact that, um, yeah, I mean, similar to me, like, like I use, well, so, and actually, you know what I could use ’cause we, ’cause people have it set up. What I could use at work and what I should use at work is, uh, Alfred, um, just, just set up Alfred, um, stuff for, for text expansion.

[00:24:26] Christina: Right?

[00:24:26] Brett: Yeah, well, launch Bar has

[00:24:28] Christina: launch part does too. Yeah. Launch

[00:24:30] Brett: or snippets anyway.

[00:24:31] Christina: Exactly. And, and, and, um, uh, like Alfred’s allowed, um, Raycast is allowed, albeit not with the AI stuff. Um,

[00:24:40] Brett: about keyboard Maestro, which can expand based on regular expressions.

[00:24:44] Christina: Oh yeah. All that stuff is allowed. The, the, the only thing.

[00:24:46] Jeff: keyboard.

[00:24:47] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. The only, the only thing that is, is kind of like band at work is like if it’s, you know, relying on kind of like a, a, a third party cloud.

[00:24:54] Christina: And even then, like, it’s not as if they, so the way I have mine configured it so that I is, is [00:25:00] that I have an exception because I’m a package managed user, which means that I use home brew. So I don’t have to like, go through this process of getting apps approved or not approved, like whether they’re allowed to run in your system or not.

[00:25:11] Christina: And it, and it’s not that heavyweight of a process in comparison to how it could be, like, they actually do it pretty well, but they take security seriously. And like, I don’t wanna ever have anything that would be work related, stored in any cloud that is not like the corporate cloud that we use. Right.

[00:25:27] Christina: Like, so, so like obsidian is allowed to be used, but you can’t use it. Um, like you can’t sync with your mobile device unless you have like a a, a

[00:25:37] Brett: What about like,

[00:25:38] Christina: device.

[00:25:39] Brett: oh, you could use Google Drive to

[00:25:41] Christina: Yes, yes. But it would have to be corporate drive.

[00:25:44] Brett: Yeah,

[00:25:45] Christina: Which, which the problem with that is, is that corporate drive then, like, I, I couldn’t use it on any other computer, but I could use it like, just on

[00:25:52] Brett: what’s the point then?

[00:25:54] Christina: Right.

[00:25:54] Christina: Right, exactly. So, well, I mean, the point would be, I guess that if, if, if I needed to set up a new computer or if I used [00:26:00] multiple machines, right. So, which, which, which I don’t. So, but, but again, that, this kind of goes back to like, what’s the point? So like, you know, but, but at GitHub we didn’t have the same level of restrictions.

[00:26:11] Christina: Um, because I mean, I think they would’ve liked to, they’re just the IT team’s not that big and, you know, they’re not gonna have the resources to, to be able to put that stuff in place. Um, but yeah, but I used, I used Ator, frankly, more for the resource usage stuff than kind of anything. Because if I had a lot of stuff running, like I did note that, you know, and I, I pay for tax expander.

[00:26:33] Christina: I still do out of kind of loyalty. But, you know, it, it, it can, it, it can, um. Be kind of a resource hog where it’s like type data. Not having that wasn’t an issue. And then I, and then with the add additional thing, I’m like, okay, I know that I’m never going to have this, you know, um, I’m not syncing across multiple machines and I, I don’t need a cloud aspect.

[00:26:57] Brett: you know, so, okay [00:27:00] vs. Code is a resource hog, but what shocked me last time my computer froze up. Um, and this is a computer with 128 gigabytes of Ram and it froze. And I got the, the force quit dialogue that listed all of the apps that were Resource hogs, Flo Todo, which I used to run like a Facebook SSBA single slate browser.

[00:27:28] Brett: Um, so I just have a single Facebook app that is sandbox from everything else, and it was taking up 128 gigabytes of Ram.

[00:27:39] Christina: So, so clearly has a bug. Yeah.

[00:27:41] Brett: It has a leak, and it was ob, it was paging out, and it, it locked up my system. So negative for Flo Tado.

[00:27:51] Jeff: That’s crazy.

[00:27:52] Christina: Yeah. That is sense. I’ve, when that happens, I always, when we’re talking about like bug reports and like I try to be like the good [00:28:00] user who’s like, okay, if I notice that that this has happened, like yeah, there’s clearly a memory leak or there’s some sort of other thing going on if this is happening. And I usually try to report it and sometimes it gets responses and sometimes it doesn’t.

[00:28:11] Christina: But Yeah,

[00:28:12] Brett: I will, I will report it to Flo Tado, even though I’m not sure that app is actively, uh, in development right now,

[00:28:21] Christina: Yeah, that’s always the hard thing about stuff like that. Yeah. Um, and um, yeah, um, SSBs are actually the hard thing at Google because obviously we can create progressive web apps. But we can’t, at least for work resources, um, for, for non-work resources, you can use whatever browser you want. And some people who do testing, which I don’t, can do testing on other browsers.

[00:28:43] Christina: Right. If like that’s what their job is. But like, work stuff can only be used in Chrome, like period

[00:28:50] Brett: Are you allowed to add extensions to Chrome?

[00:28:53] Christina: Yes, yes. Now there are some that are going to be like, that are like unilaterally banned that they like, you know, full [00:29:00] on like block, but that’s few and far between. And then they do have like a curated Chrome store.

[00:29:07] Christina: Stuff that maybe they’ve altered. Right? So there might be like, like versions, like people maintain forks. Sometimes it’s part of their job. Sometimes it’s just people wanting to do it because they’re, you know, committed to it, who will maintain a fork of a popular Chrome extension internally only. Right.

[00:29:22] Christina: So that it doesn’t exfiltrate anything. Yeah, no, I mean, the, it, it’s weird ’cause like I, I go through this process of being both frustrated sometimes by the, the, the barriers that are set up, even though I understand why they are, and also being insanely impressed at like how much infra, like is internally built up.

[00:29:42] Christina: Like, the fact that like so much, so many internal tools exist, or, or, you know, whether they’re recreations of things that exist elsewhere or not, is, I’ve never seen anything like it, like in, at least in terms of competence, like Microsoft. For has like internal versions of a lot of stuff, but [00:30:00] most of it is very similar to the, the stuff that they sell externally.

[00:30:04] Christina: Um, and, and GitHub, um, obviously develops GitHub on GitHub but uses a lot of third party tools. Google like, does a tremendous amount of stuff all internally and sometimes they, there are like external versions and sometimes there’s not, and you’re just like, oh shit. Like, a lot of people way smarter than me work at this place and maintain

[00:30:26] Brett: that’s so much cooler than working at Oracle.

Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba

[00:30:29] Brett: This episode is sponsored by one of our favorite developers, RBA makers of powerful audio software for the Mac. They’ve been developing audio focus apps for the Mac for over 20 years, going all the way back to OS. So Harold, Chris, Harold corrected me.

[00:30:49] Brett: I always say iOS apparently, and this time I’m going to get it right, going all the way back to OS 10.2, which is Jaguar, since [00:31:00] it’s been a while. Their latest versions make it a snap to get started with. No need to restart your Mac. I personally love Sound Source and loop back and use them all the time.

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[00:31:32] Jeff: All praise. All praise. Audio hijack.

[00:31:36] Brett: It can do just about anything with application audio or microphone input and has a ton of automation possibilities. Learn more about all of Rogue Amiga [email protected] slash Overtired. That’s mac audio.com/ Overtired. Listeners of Overtired can save 20% off any [00:32:00] purchase through the end of May with the coupon code Overtired.

[00:32:04] Brett: Just go to mac audio.com/ Overtired and use the coupon code Overtired.

[00:32:11] Jeff: Yes, you should.

[00:32:12] Christina: Hell yeah.

Mental Health Corner: Jeff’s Turn

[00:32:14] Brett: Fucking A. All right, so we’re half an hour in and we’re still on what is technically my mental health corner. So how are you guys doing?

[00:32:25] Christina: Jeff, go ahead.

[00:32:26] Jeff: abdicating your mental health corner? Is that what we call it? Abdicating? Um, I’m doing good. It’s, you know, it’s sunny and warm. It, it makes everything go away for a minute. Um, but there isn’t too much to go away. Uh, yeah, I’m doing, I’m doing well. I’m, I had a really nice, I feel like I always report this when it happens, but I had a nice trip.

[00:32:46] Jeff: It took my youngest son to spend a couple days alone with his older brother at college. Uh, it got to and stay in his dorm ’cause there was an empty bed there and stuff. And so it was really, it was really cool to be able to do that. And he went to some classes and [00:33:00] they went and saw a movie and hung out and who knows what else.

[00:33:03] Jeff: I mean, I actually don’t think there was much else, but it’s not my business anyhow. Um, so it was really sweet. Uh, and, and just nice to have that time. My, you know, it’s like an 11 hour drive to where my son goes to college and I’ve found that those are just the best. Times with my kids because you’re not, it’s nothing’s forced.

[00:33:24] Jeff: You’re not asking them to answer a question at the end of the day that, you know, they just don’t wanna talk about school. Whatever it is. It’s like you can just sit there. I always let them DJ the whole 11 hours, like, and you can just kind of sit there and like let things come up. And I find that to be an amazing way to just be with either of them.

[00:33:42] Jeff: So that’s always just like, I just feel really good after that and kind of carry that with me. Um, other thing I, I just realized this is so dumb, but. I don’t read ever. Like, I mean I don’t read books ever. I love to read books, but I just cannot, I can’t read ’em when I’m laying down in bed ’cause I fall asleep right [00:34:00] away.

[00:34:00] Jeff: And I had a book club, we had this book club for a while. I’ve probably talked about. That was kind of amazing ’cause the whole premise was to read the books that like you kind of were interested in that you feel like if it was 1940, uh, you would’ve read it in high school. But, um. But you don’t have any reason to read it.

[00:34:16] Jeff: It’s how we read, like War and Peace. It’s how I read Donkey Hte, all these books, Moby, Dick, whatever. Um, and uh, and it was an amazing thing, but it just kind of fell apart for reasons that groups fall apart. Um, but this morning I woke up and I’m like, obviously been reading so much news and everything, all the obvious stuff that we’re all going through and, and how much space it takes up in our head.

[00:34:36] Jeff: And I read, I don’t, nobody has to read, uh, Donte, but I highly recommend reading the prologue because it’s fucking amazing. Um, and so I just read the prologue ’cause I get a kick out of it. And then like the very beginning of the setup of Donte, which is also hilarious. Um, and it was not only delightful to read and laugh at something that definitely had nothing to do with this moment.

[00:34:58] Jeff: I mean, you can make stretches and [00:35:00] metaphors or whatever, but, um, but what happened was then I, you know, I stopped reading and I started my day. I took my kid to work like whatever. But like, I. My head was filled with the book, like my head was not filled with the tariffs and everything else. And that was like the first time for a long time.

[00:35:16] Jeff: Like I just had like echoes of impressions from just this very short bit I read this morning and I was like, huh, this, I think I just may have discovered an important, uh, durability tool for me, um, uh, in this, in this day. So that was kind of, that was really nice. Felt really good. Felt like an unburdening.

[00:35:35] Jeff: Yeah. ’cause I can’t, I was like, ah, I’m not gonna even look at the news for a couple days, which I think is a good thing to do. I don’t think there’s any reason not to look at the news for a couple days. You’re not a bad advocate, you’re not a bad carer about the rights of people in the world. You’re not a bad anything.

[00:35:49] Jeff: It’s just something you need to do. And I often can’t do it. Not in a, I’m not an obsessive news reader, but like I do, well I guess, I mean, like the way I read news is [00:36:00] I do open the New York Times app a few times a day and I tell. My dingus to tell me the news. Even sometimes, even though sometimes it means she tells me about the history of the juice.

[00:36:09] Christina: right.

[00:36:10] Jeff: I do ask her to tell me the news a few days, uh, a few times a day, but I’m not like crazy obsessive about it. But man, it’s a constant flow. It’s like constant, constantly flowing through my, my bloodstream. So anyway, that was, uh, it was a funny revelation to have, but it’s also just a very, like, nowadays revelation to have.

[00:36:28] Jeff: And so again, I will say, read the prologue, Don Kte, if you love novels, like at all, if you love reading fiction, like you have never read a prologue and you won’t believe that this was written in like the fucking 16 hundreds or whatever is the 17 hours. I forget. So that was, that was nice. That, and the sun today has got me feeling pretty good.

[00:36:49] Christina: I love

[00:36:49] Brett: Jeff, do, do you get, uh, do you subscribe to Means tv?

[00:36:54] Jeff: I don’t know what that is.

[00:36:55] Brett: It’s a, we’ll call it an anti-capitalist network.

[00:36:59] Jeff: Okay.

[00:36:59] Brett: [00:37:00] Um, they just added some anarchist content, but it’s mostly socialist content. Um, and they have a means daily news. That is, if you wanna get, like, news that includes, like, successes in labor movements, you know, instead of just like what the tariffs are gonna do to the economy.

[00:37:25] Brett: Um, it’s a, it’s a fun place to get news.

[00:37:27] Jeff: you’re one of these guys that likes good news. See, I’m not even, I’m not attracted, I’m not even attracted to good news. I can’t even say

[00:37:35] Christina: I’m, I’m, I’m exactly like you Jeff. Like, it, it, it, it doesn’t like, I don’t actually like, in some ways, like, it’s cool if it’s there, but like, I don’t want to curate that way personally.

News Consumption and Mental Health

[00:37:45] Christina: Like, I like my, my news addiction and it’s gotten a lot better and I’ve had to do it because it’s been, and sorry if I took over your mental health corner, um, uh, is that like, for my own mental health, I have to, like, I’ve had to disconnect and [00:38:00] disengage with news and, um, even though I haven’t been a reporter, uh, as my full-time job for a long time now, like, it, it took years and years.

[00:38:10] Christina: Like it, I, I’ve, I’ve said this on the p before, like it was, um, it was January 6th. That was like the moment that kind of broke me because it was, I realized one of the first big, like. Massive, like mass casualty, kind of like real time, like scenario, well, not mass casualty, but like, you know what I mean?

[00:38:28] Christina: Like, like one of those like, like felt at the time, like world changing

[00:38:32] Jeff: There were things that died that day.

[00:38:34] Christina: Right, right. Exactly.

[00:38:36] Jeff: and a lot of things died.

[00:38:37] Christina: right. And, and I had to process it like not a reporter, which was really fucked for me because I, it, it, it, you know, I had become so desensitized to having to process that sort of stuff in, in real time.

[00:38:53] Christina: And you think about it as, okay, what are the stories that we’re assigning? What angles are we doing? How are we getting the news [00:39:00] out? What are the important facts? What is real, what is not, what is gossip? Like you, you just, you handle the, the trauma frankly, of it all in a different way. And, and I had to like process it like a regular person and, and that really fucked me.

[00:39:13] Christina: But it was also kind of a good reminder for me to be like, okay, since this is not the sort of stuff that you’d live with day in and day out anymore. You don’t have to be part of this all the time. And I know that for you it’s different because sometimes you have to be connected to stuff for your job and you

[00:39:29] Jeff: I don’t anymore.

[00:39:31] Christina: right?

[00:39:31] Christina: Well, but, but, but you have, but you know what I mean, but like, even some of your research, right? There might be things you’re like, okay, I need to be plugged in on this. And so I have to be aware. And, um, and, and certainly from my job now, like I need to be plugged in with like AI announcements and stuff.

[00:39:44] Christina: And like, that can obviously go into lots of complicated, you know, like different ways to process things. But it’s not the same as like the world is ending, you know what I mean? Or, or, or, or democracies and shambles and like the terrible stuff [00:40:00] that’s happening around us. And so for my own, like mental health, I fully agree with you.

[00:40:05] Christina: Like, it doesn’t make you a bad person, doesn’t make you anything. If you’re like, you know what? I don’t wanna fucking look at this right

[00:40:11] Jeff: Because you’re not helping anybody by reading the news. There are things you can do out of having read the news that you can do to help people. It actually doesn’t help anybody that you’re reading the news,

[00:40:18] Christina: Well, and the thing is, is I think that there’s a difference, right? Like there’s a difference between being like obstinate and willfully, like, uh, refusing to acknowledge what’s happening around you and refusing to do it and actively engaging in it, right? Like, like, like, like I feel like it’s a problem if you just, you know, put your fingers in your ears and you’re like, I don’t see it.

[00:40:41] Christina: I don’t know it, it’s not happening,

[00:40:43] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:43] Christina: right? Like, I feel like that can actually be problematic. And, and, and if people need to do that for short term periods, you know, you do. You. But I feel like long term that is actually a problem. People don’t acknowledge the reality around them and, and, and the suffering and, and the bad things.

[00:40:57] Christina: Like I feel like that’s a problem. But there’s a difference [00:41:00] between being like, I know how bad things are and I need to actively read every New York Times, or Wall Street Journal, or Bloomberg or whatever, headline, right? Like

[00:41:08] Brett: there’s the, it’s possible to be aware of all the bad things that are happening without dwelling on it in an obsessive way.

[00:41:18] Christina: Totally, totally. And, and like this is one of the reasons why, like, I’m not really posting about politics or anything else anymore on social media. And, and I think some people think that it’s because like, you know, it’s directives from bosses or whatever. No, that’s not at, although I’m sure that they would prefer that I not speak about political things.

[00:41:35] Christina: Right. And fair enough. But like, that’s not what it is. It’s that it’s frankly that at this stage of the things that are happening, like I’ve had kind of a, a come to Jesus moment with myself where I’m like, my opinion doesn’t matter and I’m not helping anybody by like, I know what I mean. Like in some cases it does, I look back at like my, my past actions and I don’t regret them or anything, but I’m like, okay, [00:42:00] what were you accomplishing?

[00:42:01] Christina: And, and, and at a certain point it does sometimes feel like, and people again, like other people can. Process and, and can comment and can do whatever they want, however they wanna do it. And I won’t judge that. Like I, I really do my best not to judge that. But like for me, it’s just kind of a thing where I’m like, okay, like what am I accomplishing by commenting and continuing to reify how bad this shit is?

[00:42:23] Christina: Like, is this making me feel any better? Is this doing anything for me? And if it is great, right? For some people, like that could be a way of getting through some of the trauma and getting through some of the stuff would just be to talk about how bad it is. And I respect that. I just feel like, you know, we, we’ve gone through a really difficult last eight years and now things are just the point where I’m like, I don’t have it in me to do it anymore.

[00:42:50] Christina: I just don’t.

[00:42:52] Jeff: yeah. Yeah. I feel, I think a lot about like, um, seasons in life too. Like our lives have seasons, like they [00:43:00] have long seasons, but then there are little short seasons and like, I often think, I can’t help but think back to like a season of my life where I was willing to get like shot or blown up and almost did for my convictions and in order to care about a thing, an issue, a people, whatever.

[00:43:15] Jeff: And I think that that was great. And I’m, I’m proud of myself for having, I’m proud of younger me for having done that.

Finding Meaningful Ways to Help

[00:43:20] Jeff: But like what I’ve settled into as an old man in this moment, and I learned this from the George Floyd uprising or, or sort of encoded it into my brain is like, I am very comfortable knowing that.

[00:43:35] Jeff: I will see an opportunity at some point for a way I can help and I will help. And, and it may be, it may take me longer than other people. It may take me longer than some people think it should. But there is no too long because at some point you come into the game and the people that came in the first wave have burned out.

[00:43:53] Jeff: And you do need a second wave. You do need new people. You always need people. And, and if I, I mean, if I waited [00:44:00] until I was 72 to do something meaningful again, um, will have, it will be meaningful that I’ve done it. And, and like one of the things I, I still think back to a lot, um, is like, so during the uprisings, like the first night.

[00:44:16] Jeff: When everyone was outside the police precinct, the one that ultimately burned down and was, was abandoned. Um, I went out there ’cause I felt like I had to, and it was fucking scary. Like everything was off balance. Like, um, you know, everybody was, everybody on both sides was. Behaving in a way, and this isn’t a judgment, this is just what happens to humans when something is that elevated.

[00:44:40] Jeff: Because what happened was so incredibly fucked. Um, everybody was just, it was, you know, it’s one of those things like any protest, and especially once the National Guard was here, the idea you, you, you look and see is a million protesters and a and a hundred, you know, national Guard. But actually what’s happening here, even if it’s basically [00:45:00] under control, is, is the line between chaos and, and great harm And whatever state you’re looking at now is just one person’s decision.

[00:45:08] Jeff: And that decision could be, I threw a bottle and instead of hitting a, an officer’s. Or a National guards person’s helmet, it hit their face. And that national guards person then reacted as however they were always gonna react when they got their face hit right with a, with a bottle or whatever, like it was, that it’s that fine of a line.

[00:45:25] Jeff: It’s true for things going well too, right? Like, it’s true for things that inspire movements, whatever. It’s often one person’s decision. It’s, it’s in the context of a movement and, and all these things, but it’s often one person makes one little decision. You may never know what that person was, who that person was, or what that decision was.

[00:45:42] Jeff: Anyway, I, in all of that and that chaos, and it was scary. And, and you know, you’d have the windows open and you’d smell the smoke and hear the, you know, non-lethal rounds that, you know, would take people’s eyes out but wouldn’t kill them. Um, I got a call from a friend who was working as a medic [00:46:00] at the protests every night, and she knew I had a workshop.

[00:46:04] Jeff: And she said, Hey, do you have respirators? And I was like, do I? And, and so what she did is on her way down to meet up with the medics before that night’s stuff really ramped up. She came over and like it was James Bond movie with the guy that has all the special weapons. I had laid out every kind of respirator on a picnic table.

[00:46:21] Jeff: And she came by and was able to go, this one, this one, this one. And then she brought it down and they were tear gassing the shit out of people at this point. She brought it down and, and a handful of medics had had these respirators and were able to help because someone knew to ask me. I knew that that was an opportunity in a way I could help.

[00:46:37] Jeff: And it felt really meaningful. And I think that in these times it can be so easy to beat yourself up ’cause you’re not doing this or that or to judge actions, whatever it is. But like. The only way movements or change happens is everyone kind of finds their place.

Personal Protest Experiences

[00:46:53] Jeff: And we’ve talked about this a million times.

[00:46:55] Jeff: For me, the place was never holding a sign. I was at protest, but I could never hold a sign. I just [00:47:00] couldn’t do it. I could be a body there. I can’t hold a sign. I’m too much like, well, that just doesn’t say everything.

Transition from Journalism

[00:47:04] Jeff: I mean, well, you know, I, I just don’t know, not to mention copy editing signs, but, um, but like, the last thing I’ll say about this, ’cause it was something you, you triggered for me, Christina, when you were talking about ha like either having to, or also being able to process something not as a journalist, I still, there’s such a crystal clear point at which I knew I was not a journalist anymore.

[00:47:27] Jeff: And it’s true ’cause I haven’t been one since then, but it was awesome. So I had been laid off from public radio and public radio is like so funny ’cause it’s so clearly like liberal and left leaning. But it, it works so hard to just, even in how voices are to just seem very reasonable, whatever else. And I always like, I both appreciate that and it drives me fucking crazy.

[00:47:47] Jeff: Um. Yeah, it mostly drives me crazy. But, um, but anyway, there was a march commemorating the, the murder of Philando Castile here who

[00:47:57] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:57] Jeff: by a police officer. Um, [00:48:00] and this march was destined to make its way down a entrance ramp to highway 94 and, and to shut it down. And I was there. This was still the point at which when I attended protests, I put a long skinny notebook in my back pocket just ’cause I don’t know why, like, partly I just, that helped me.

[00:48:15] Jeff: ’cause I would take, I would just take, write things down for myself ’cause it’s how I’ve always been. But also sometimes I knew I was going to see other journalists. I saw what the hell. Um, but this time I just had one because I, I wanted to be able to document ’cause those are great. No, those are great notebooks to put in your hand and document.

[00:48:30] Jeff: And, uh, and I’m walking and, and it becomes clear. People are starting to go down to 94 and I’m not really a, like lead the way and shut down the freeway guy, but I totally will go and watch but stand in the middle and recognize that I’m both a witness and a participant in that sense. And so. The whole march starts, like veering down the, the entrance ramp and, and at the, at, just at like the sort of pivot point where it’s very clear who’s going down and who’s not.

[00:48:56] Jeff: I run into two journalists I know, and one of them had, had never met me. [00:49:00] And, and the one goes, Hey Jeff. And then he says the other one, Hey, this is Jeff ler. You know, he used to work for NPR and all these say whatever the guy’s like, oh, I’ve always wanted to meet you. And they go, what are you doing here?

[00:49:09] Jeff: And I was like, just checking it out. And I said, and I just kind of proceeded down to 94 and participated in the shutdown of the freeway. And, uh, and that felt amazing. I was just like, nah, just checking it out. And, uh, but, but I’m also walking down here as you can see, and I have no press pass. So I was like, all right, I’m not a journalist anymore.

[00:49:27] Jeff: And that’s awesome. Not that I couldn’t still be a journalist, I wanna be really clear about that. But like, that was just like a, I think I wanna be on the other side of this now.

[00:49:35] Christina: Which honestly is kind of freeing in a sense.

Protest Dynamics and Personal Involvement

[00:49:37] Christina: Like, I don’t know, like what the, what the, um, like rules and requirements were for the places you worked, but that was always a really hard thing for me. Like I remember. Um, uh, covering like some of the, um, like the protests like, uh, you know, in, in, in 2015 and stuff.

[00:49:52] Christina: And like, I had to be really careful. Like, you know, I had like, I, I would cover them and, but I had to be removed in a [00:50:00] certain sense. Right. And obviously you can’t be, like, I would be, you know, shouting along with folks and like, if I needed to make an argument, I could that like, well I need to fit in so that, you know, people don’t like look at you weird or whatever, you know, and you’re documenting things in like a, you know, reasonable way.

[00:50:14] Christina: And, you know, you go and you like have like the lawyer’s numbers, like written on your like arm and stuff, you know, in case you get arrested and, and, and, and all that. Um. Which never happened, but you know, there, you never know what it’s going to be like. And, but like there did always feel like there had to be like this separation to a certain sense.

[00:50:33] Christina: Like even though I frequently what would happen is I would go just to go myself and then I would find out that I was the only reporter from my publication there. And then I’d be like, well, fuck, well now I can’t just be here for me now I have to be like less involved. You know what I mean? Like, I am no longer

[00:50:49] Jeff: Seeing the news value. Just so you know, I’m here now and I can report back.

[00:50:53] Christina: Right.

[00:50:53] Christina: Well, well, right. And, and so, so it would be almost, the inverse would be like, I went at first like to maybe be involved and like, oh, I’m separate from this. This isn’t like my main [00:51:00] beat. This is me as a, as a, you know, citizen. And then it becomes, okay, now I have to shift him to being an observer. Right. And, um, and so I imagine like, I don’t know, like what the lines were for you, that there has to be something like, even though it’s weirder to not have the press badge and whatnot, there’s also something freeing about being like, well, no, I can participate however I see fit, and I don’t have to like, hold up, like those lines of like journalistic, like, you know, integrity or ambiguity or, or whatever, you know?

[00:51:27] Jeff: Yeah, it’s true. I mean, I always, and, and even when I was a journalist, the thing I think I always considered myself secretly was a participant observer in research terms. ’cause like I knew that whether I was there as a reporter or not, if I’m a body in the crowd, I’m a body in the crowd. And, and that felt meaningful, uh, to me.

[00:51:44] Jeff: But

[00:51:46] Brett: The, uh, the best article I read in the last week was about how to make lock boxes. Are you familiar with lock

[00:51:53] Jeff: yes, I grew up in the nineties.

[00:51:54] Brett: Yeah. Um, like. Tools to [00:52:00] lock yourself to objects or to other people to impede anything from the downing of a tree to traffic on a busy street. And this article fascinated me because it talked about how to like build it with carabiners so you could quick release if you needed to run, but no cop could get their arm in how to add multiple midline bolts so that the cops wouldn’t know which ones to cut to get you out of it.

[00:52:33] Brett: How to reinforce it with fucking Kevlar. It was, it was funny. It was funny, but also it felt, it felt pertinent because I also can’t carry signs. I just, I won’t do it because it feels like going to protest in general feels somewhat futile to me. Like the average protest doesn’t make [00:53:00] any difference at all.

[00:53:01] Brett: A well-behaved stay within the fenced area, protest doesn’t make a difference. Um, but a protest that is, um, obtrusive, can make a difference, uh, can make a statement. And to me, like the idea of lock boxes of really like fucking shit up that I can get into.

Debate on Protest Tactics

[00:53:27] Jeff: I would just, I’ll, I’ll say one thing about protests. I never feel particularly great at like very kind of mainstream feeling protests, but if they don’t happen, then the slide goes faster. Like it’s important that they happen. But I’m with you. Like I don’t, I’m rarely at a protest and really inspired, but, but I am inspired by the fact that this is still a community that’s,

[00:53:50] Brett: I wanna be a part, I want to be a part of the crew that enables the protest to be fully what it can be. I wanna be [00:54:00] the person that stops traffic. I want to be the person that distracts the cops. I wanna be the person that makes it possible for that protest peacefully to be all it can be. Um, being the protester doesn’t appeal to me.

[00:54:17] Brett: I used to carry a lot of signs in my early twenties, late teens, um, and it, it, it grew on me that it was futile. Like we weren’t making a difference. But the black block, as much as protestors often fear, uh, what the black block does. Often provides cover and ability to your protest.

[00:54:47] Christina: Yeah.

[00:54:47] Jeff: Don’t get me started on black block. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll just have a fight.

[00:54:51] Brett: No, it’s okay.

[00:54:53] Jeff: I think that it’s. It’s literally masquerading as something more meaningful than regular protests. [00:55:00] Like I have watched so many black, black people, I’ve known them. There are people in my life I care about who are black block.

[00:55:04] Jeff: I know people that have been, there are people in my life who are prosecuted by other people in my life for being black block, and I support them a thousand percent. Uh, you know, like someone’s indicted, like I know what side I’m on. Um, I have experienced black block in my life and in my long life as an activist, as spoiled kids who are looking for a fix of some sort.

[00:55:27] Jeff: And easy cover, easy cover for provocateurs. Like

[00:55:30] Christina: I, yes, no, I, I fully agree with

[00:55:32] Brett: but I would say that the primary complaint about the black block is that they cause property damage.

[00:55:39] Jeff: Oh yeah. That’s not a complaint of mine.

[00:55:41] Brett: yeah,

[00:55:42] Jeff: I mean, it’s, it’s like, it’s, I think that

[00:55:44] Brett: is not people.

[00:55:45] Jeff: it’s true. I will say, actually I’m gonna retake, I’m take my thing back. I have seen the property damage and looked at it and gone. You actually didn’t help. You only heard at this

[00:55:54] Christina: Yeah, I was, I was

[00:55:55] Jeff: broke a window of that small business over here, which happened a ton here.

[00:55:59] Jeff: Like

[00:55:59] Christina: I [00:56:00] was. I was

[00:56:00] Jeff: That probably felt good, but it didn’t help anything. And if anything it ratchets up. I, this is what I don’t like doing things like that while masked to me. I’m not gonna say it’s like cowardice ’cause I

[00:56:10] Christina: I am

[00:56:11] Jeff: a whole philosophy. Yeah. I’m just saying like, uh, before I get to that, right, like to me, and this is what I found, find powerful about nonviolent action, and I might very specifically say nonviolent action because people think of nonviolence as, as passivity, is that when you hide and when you then do things hidden, it creates a sort of tension and a ramping up and a sort of calculus in a, in a crowd that I have only ever seen lead to near disaster for everybody.

[00:56:42] Jeff: Whereas when you are locking yourself up to a tree or whatever else and you have no mask on and you are saying, this is a risk I’ve decided to take and I’m doing it. Masks are a tricky thing now because of surveillance and AI and everything, but like, I, I do not, I, it’s like property damage. Yeah. If I’m not like, oh my God, my heart [00:57:00] hurts because this capitalist entity got its window broken or something.

[00:57:04] Jeff: But I don’t, I’ve only experienced it be as a threat to myself as an activist doing serious work. It’s only way I’ve ever experienced it is that now, now everything is ratcheted up a little bit, and now we’re in the land of you do that just a little differently than maybe would’ve happened and all of a sudden they’re shooting or there’s

[00:57:22] Christina: I, well, this is what I was gonna say.

[00:57:24] Jeff: for everybody when you do that.

[00:57:26] Christina: I was gonna say, ’cause that’s what ha that, that, that’s my problem with it. Like I, I’m not a fan of property damage and it’s not because I care so much about the property. Um, although I think you make a great point about, yeah, there are small businesses and individuals and people like, who have their cars messed up, who like, might not have the type of insurance and stuff, you know what I mean?

[00:57:43] Christina: Like, there are like people who didn’t do anything and you’re fucking up their stuff because okay, great. It made you feel better, but what did it do? But, but my, my biggest thing is exactly what you said, that second part, which is that I think leads to two things. One, I think it embodies people sometimes.

[00:57:58] Christina: And I, and I agree with this [00:58:00] also with, with like sometimes the black box type thing. Is that, um, is that it? Um, black blocks, whatever, um, is that it like, uh, can enable and encourage, um, this comes with poverty, damage to people who aren’t involved and aren’t part of the whole thing to just take part in the melee.

[00:58:18] Christina: And, and then the movement gets tainted by that, right? Like you see that a lot with looting, like people who loot stuff are usually not like the people who were part of the protest, but the people who came around and were like, well, we might as well, you know, like, if, if this stuff is here for free for all and then everyone gets tagged by it.

[00:58:35] Christina: And then the secondary thing is that, yeah, this now creates an environment where law enforcement can go in and can and can take action because they, they can make a claim that things were at risk or that things were getting dangerous to, to a certain degree. And it can go into a much more, um, like

[00:58:52] Brett: is pacifying law enforcement your goal though?

[00:58:55] Christina: Well, I, I think that I don’t really care about pacifying law enforcement. I’m saying I don’t [00:59:00] want people to get shot. I, I don’t want people to get shot and killed. And if you are going there and you’re going with the understanding that, yeah, I’m gonna be willing to get shot and killed for my protest, all power to you.

[00:59:12] Christina: But I don’t think that’s how most people are doing things. And, and I don’t think, and I, I think a lot of times some of your most vocal people are the, to your point, like what you said earlier, Jeff, are the fucking like spoiled like kids who don’t have any experience, who have places to go back to who don’t really, aren’t even there for the convictions.

[00:59:30] Christina: They’re just there for like the surface stuff. It’s like the, it’s the fucking Occupy Wall Street bullshit. It’s, it’s the fucking like, like Chaz and, and chop bullshit. And it doesn’t accomplish anything. Like we had a lot of people who genuinely died, like in, in Chap and cha, uh, chop and Chaz and fuck law enforcement.

[00:59:48] Christina: I’m not here for any of that. But like, when you create a kind of an environment that people try to portray as being like this, you know, like. Like great [01:00:00] kind of idyllic, uh, community environment. And it wasn’t that. And then three people got shot and died, like, fuck off. Like, you know, like it wasn’t a, a good environment.

[01:00:09] Christina: Like it wasn’t some sort of like utopia sort of thing. It was, it was a bunch of people who might’ve had some good intentions and I supported them. Like we, we gave water and we were like in support of what they were trying to do. And then it just morphed into this thing that wasn’t, and I don’t think it was helpful.

[01:00:25] Christina: And I think that it, you know, hurt a lot of things more ultimately than it helped. Um, I’m fully in favor of people if they wanna, you know, fight the system that way. And they wanna do it if they feel like violence is the only way to get it across. Maybe sometimes it is, but I don’t have to participate in that.

[01:00:41] Christina: And, and I don’t necessarily think that always, um, furthers what the goals are. But I’m also, I wanna be very clear and I don’t have any problems with people who are this.

Reflections on Anarchism and Activism

[01:00:51] Christina: I’m not an anarchist and I have absolutely no desire to be an anarchist. That is not my bag. If that’s how people wanna, wanna associate and do things all power to [01:01:00] you, you have that right?

[01:01:01] Christina: That is not my, my position or like my affinity. So

[01:01:08] Jeff: This is

[01:01:08] Brett: So Christina, how are you?

[01:01:10] Jeff: wait, I just wanna point out what people can’t see is that through all the, all this conversation, Brett is leaned back, you know, pretty, pretty well in his chair, probably as far as it goes. And he has a, a beautiful, beautiful, furry cat, uh, up to his neck and he’s just slowly stroking the cat’s neck.

[01:01:27] Jeff: And the nat the cat is so happy and it, you don’t even look like a mobster. You look like a, you know, something far nicer. Um,

[01:01:33] Christina: little bit like a mobster.

[01:01:34] Jeff: that’s a, that’s a layer in this conversation right now that nobody

[01:01:38] Brett: I’m a very nice anarchist.

[01:01:40] Christina: No. And I, and,

[01:01:41] Jeff: of very nice

[01:01:42] Christina: And again, like I, I wanna be very clear, like I respect like that, that, that is like the stuff that you follow and like, support, like I really do. Um, that’s just not my position. But like I don’t have any problem with people who do that. It’s just not like how I choose to, you know, express my, my beliefs.

[01:01:56] Christina: But I have no problem with people who do do that. And I feel like we need people like [01:02:00] that who are out there. I’m just not one of them. Like,

[01:02:02] Brett: You said

[01:02:02] Jeff: don’t conflate. Don’t conflate anarchists with black block

[01:02:05] Christina: oh, I’m not. I’m

[01:02:06] Jeff: not you. I’m talking to Brett, like I feel like I have a lot of lovely anarchists in my life and some of them

[01:02:12] Brett: Yeah. Well that’s

[01:02:13] Jeff: black block, but they do. It’s not fair to anarchism

[01:02:15] Brett: the people with the lock boxes, the people without the mask, those are often anarchists.

[01:02:21] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

[01:02:22] Brett: not saying like you have to be black block

[01:02:25] Jeff: yeah, totally. I know you’re not, yeah, yeah. What does the cat

[01:02:28] Christina: No. And, and, and to be clear, like I feel like people, like if you’re willing to put your own face and your own like, like name and stuff on top of it, like that is brave as fucking hell. And I think that’s amazing, right? Like if you’re willing to actually take the consequences to it, like that to me is incredible.

[01:02:43] Christina: Um,

[01:02:44] Jeff: what’s tricky now is like there are, I understand and I can hear someone saying as they’re listening or like banging their head against their, uh, I don’t know what, if you’re listening to this on your phone that like there are anew, there are reasons for people to wear masks and so it’s not mask wearing [01:03:00] that I think either of us is coming down on.

[01:03:01] Jeff: It’s the sort of like, I am specifically, I’ll be honest, thinking of a kind of mostly young white activist who is masking up and breaking shit as kind of what I have in mind. And I also recognize that I am probably over overly narrow in how I describe it. Partly because I have a bo, I have a. Bodily response to it.

[01:03:21] Jeff: Having watched that stuff draw people who have come to a protest without, um, without being prepared to get hurt, having watched people in that position get drawn into the risk of being hurt, including children in strollers. Um, because of what if I’m being really cruel and ungracious because of what feels like daddy issues, not anarchism.

[01:03:42] Jeff: I mean, the black guys,

[01:03:43] Brett: that’s

[01:03:44] Jeff: I just, I look at like, oh yeah, that’s a daddy issue right there. That’s not anti-capitalist

[01:03:49] Christina: Right, right, right. And

[01:03:51] Jeff: dads can.

[01:03:53] Christina: No, and, and totally like people, there are very valid reasons to have masks and stuff, but I feel like sometimes it, I, but [01:04:00] I will still say even then, like it’s one of those things where I’m like, I really respect, like, um, like there was this, uh, uh, employee protest, um, at, uh, at Microsoft, uh, last week, like on the fricking 50th anniversary, which is ballsy.

[01:04:12] Christina: And look, I wouldn’t have done it and I don’t think it accomplished anything, but I respect the hell out of the people who did that, did that under their own faces and under their own names. And, and I’m like, you know what I mean? Well, I mean, look, if you’re going to, you know, interrupt like a, a major event or whatever, and, and you’re doing it for those reasons and you’re gonna do it for the things you claim, like, I’m sorry, I think you do need to do that with your own face and with your own name.

[01:04:35] Christina: I think that if you do it, otherwise, I, I think it’s fucking cowardly. Um, uh, because it’s not like anybody was at risk for getting. You know, shot or anything like that wasn’t a risk there. Um, if you, but if you, like, if you’re gonna do that stuff and you know that you’re gonna get fired, and of course you’re gonna get fired, like, that’s really brave.

[01:04:52] Christina: But do that under your name and your face. I think, again, I wouldn’t have done that and I don’t think it accomplished anything, but I really respect the people who did it, did it [01:05:00] like openly, you know what I mean? Like, that’s, that’s bravery. That’s bravery that I certainly don’t have. Um, I mean, I, I, I don’t know.

[01:05:08] Christina: I guess if it was something I had strong enough convictions about, maybe right? But like, I would never pretend that like I have it in me, like I’m too risk averse to do a lot of that type of stuff. Um, but I respect people who, we do need people who will do that. You know, we do.

[01:05:26] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. We need all types for sure. Brett and Christina, just because Brett brought up the nineties, uh, and, and the sort of direct action days, the, like the, really the beginning of the lockbox era in our generation, I have put a link to young child Jeffy interviewing Noam Chomsky in the, in the WTO protest era.

[01:05:48] Christina: Oh wow.

[01:05:49] Jeff: in the, a link in the show notes. I, I think I was, was, what is it, like 99 or

[01:05:55] Christina: Yeah, that that was the

[01:05:56] Brett: I was, I saw Noam Chomsky at the U of M in 99.[01:06:00]

[01:06:00] Jeff: Did you? Yeah. I got to go to his office and interview him.

[01:06:03] Brett: Oh, wow.

[01:06:04] Jeff: It was awesome. And I, and there’s even a great scene at the end when he pulls down a couple of photos of his children and grandchildren that, that I really, that I

[01:06:13] Brett: All right.

[01:06:13] Jeff: So, and he says the word Pokemon, which was a goal of mine because I talked to a friend who was his literary agent.

[01:06:19] Jeff: I’m like, look, I’m interviewing him. Chomsky One, I’m terrified. Two, gimme something, uh, that I can ask him about that isn’t gonna be an every other Noam Chomsky interview. Which of, as you remember, was like one a day if you were counting. And he is like, he’s fascinated with Pokemon and the, and the naming of it and the linguistics of it.

[01:06:36] Jeff: I was like, got it. Thanks. So I did get him to say Pokemon at one

[01:06:39] Christina: Which is freaking awesome. Awesome. Honestly, like I would be so proud of myself. I’d be like, I got him

[01:06:43] Jeff: I was, I wasn’t even like, by the end, I wasn’t even like, I interviewed Noam Cho. I’m like, I got Noam Chomsky to say Pokemon.

[01:06:50] Christina: which

[01:06:50] Brett: was the same year I met Jello. B Alpha,

[01:06:53] Jeff: Awesome. Oh man. My son just discovered Jello opera and, and just listened to one of

[01:06:58] Brett: like spoken word. Yeah. Okay.

[01:06:59] Jeff: well, [01:07:00] no, first Dead Kennedy’s

[01:07:01] Brett: Yeah.

[01:07:01] Jeff: and then, um, ’cause he is in a punk rock band. And then, uh, I was like, have you heard his spoken word? He is like, well, yeah, I was just wondering. I don’t really like poems.

[01:07:08] Jeff: I was like, oh brother, these are not poems. You’re gonna love it.

[01:07:12] Brett: I don’t remember what I said to Joe Biafra. I just remember like, this was at Little Tijuana’s before it was like a,

[01:07:20] Jeff: Everybody, everybody in, in the nineties, if you, uh, if you had just left a punk rock show and you needed food, it didn’t matter if you were high or not high straight edge or not, you were going to little tiwan as, and you were in love with one of

[01:07:33] Brett: For dollar pitchers of beer. I dated most of those waitresses, um,

[01:07:39] Jeff: Oh

[01:07:39] Brett: but I don’t remember what I said to him, but his reply was, don’t be an asshole. And I wore that as a badge of honor for so long.

[01:07:49] Jeff: J Pi Alfred, who’s almost definitely an asshole, but I love him to death. Awesome. Christina, we we, uh, we gotta roll around

[01:07:58] Christina: Yeah. No, and I [01:08:00] already, I already kind of talked about mine, I guess. I

[01:08:01] Jeff: Yeah, you did. You

[01:08:02] Christina: Um, yeah, I mean, so, uh, yeah, no, we’re good.

TV Shows and Entertainment

[01:08:05] Christina: Um, I, how one of the ways like talking about like disconnecting from like the news and stuff is like, I’ve been watching a lot more TV and um, ’cause it TV has been good. Uh, the last, uh, little bit like we had.

[01:08:18] Christina: We had severance, um, which, which obviously ended was great. We had White Lotus, which I very much enjoyed. I don’t think it landed the ending. Um,

[01:08:26] Jeff: still so fun

[01:08:27] Christina: it was still so fun. Exactly. And, and, uh, and the drama now around that season that, that Jason Isaacs just being like a shit stir and just like giving these interviews where he’s just making it worse and you know that he knows it.

[01:08:39] Christina: ’cause he’s like, I read everything about this. And I’m like, wow, man. Who would’ve thought that? Like, the guy that plays the dad, like, like the, like the doped up dad also, he’s British and he did such a great southern accent, like,

[01:08:50] Jeff: Andy’s Daddy Malfoy,

[01:08:52] Christina: yeah, yeah.

[01:08:53] Jeff: took me halfway through the

[01:08:55] Christina: Oh my God.

[01:08:55] Jeff: I know this fucking face?

[01:08:57] Christina: Yes, yes, you’re right. Daddy Malfoy. But like, he did such [01:09:00] a fucking good job, like playing like the Rich Southern guy.

[01:09:04] Christina: And I know that, I know the rich Southern guy incredibly well. And like, he fucking like, nailed it, like, like the acts and everything, but then he’s just being such a shitster, so I’m like, I’m, I’m here for it. Um, the, uh, the last of us, uh, season two, uh, premieres, um, this week, I’m looking forward to that Hacks just came back.

[01:09:24] Christina: Um, that’s one of my favorite shows. I don’t know if either of you have watched that, but

[01:09:27] Jeff: No.

[01:09:28] Christina: so, it’s a, it’s a, I think you both would really like it. It’s on, it’s on HBO Max whatever. Um, it’s, uh, stars, uh, gene Smart and um, uh, Hannah Eve. And it is, um, uh, created and written by um, two of the people who were heavily involved with Broad City.

[01:09:47] Christina: Um, and um, and it’s, uh, but, but it’s um, and I love Broad City. Like I’m a broad city like all the way. ’cause it was my. You know, I wasn’t single, but like every other aspect help really did relate a lot to [01:10:00] my life at that time. It is a much better show. Um, it is, um, it, it’s, and it has a broader appeal, so it’s about this, um, woman who is a, a Las Vegas like standup comedian, like she’s in this universe.

[01:10:13] Christina: Uh, I guess she maybe would be kind of like an Elaine Stitch type, although I guess younger, but like very famous, well known. Um, has like a, a show like on, on the strip, uh, at one of the biggest Dinos, um, is also a QVC person and they’re wanting to kind of. Kick her out. Um, and there’s this, uh, gen Z um, uh, bisexual writer from Los Angeles who got in trouble because of some stuff that she tweeted and they share an agent.

[01:10:40] Christina: And the agent is like, you have to like write, she should write jokes for you. And they have kind of a, you know, love hate relationship with one another. And, um, and it’s going into its fourth season and, and the show has shifted a lot since then, but it’s, it’s a comedy and it’s, you know, one Emmy’s for being a comedy, but even though it’s like a half hour, like there’s a lot of heart [01:11:00] to it.

[01:11:00] Christina: And it’s one of those things where it’s almost like, it’s like a comedy that it’s kind of a drama underneath and in some ways, but the acting is so good and it’s very funny. And, um, and season four already is really good. So watching that. Um, and uh, yeah, and like I said, I’m looking forward to the last of us, uh, season two, like very here for that.

[01:11:22] Christina: Um.

[01:11:23] Jeff: So here for it. I’m re I’m almost done rewatching season

[01:11:26] Christina: same, same. I’m trying to like remind myself and I’ve played the game, so like I know the whole

[01:11:30] Jeff: I have not, my kids have, but I, and I’ve not played, uh, the second game, so I don’t know anything about what’s about to happen, which is very exciting. Although I kind of bet it’s amazing to have played the game and then watch the

[01:11:41] Christina: Yeah, no, the adaptation is so good. Like, I, I think I said this last year, I was more impressed by the fallout adaptation because they had so much less to work with. Like they had to capture the vibes of the game, and they did perfectly, like speaking of White Lotus and Walton Goggins, like, he was great on Fallout, but like, and I, I loved [01:12:00] Fallout for that reason.

[01:12:00] Christina: But the last of us is like taking what, in my opinion, is like one of like the best like video games like ever and turning that into tv. And then in some ways, like there were some episodes in the first season that like transcended the source material, which you never see with adaptations. And very rarely do.

[01:12:21] Christina: Right. Like the Godfather would be one of them. Right. But like, it, it’s, it’s

[01:12:24] Jeff: Definitely better than the book.

[01:12:26] Christina: well, I mean, I think the book is good, but like the, the movie is like other level and then like the, the sequel is like, you know, other level. Right. But like, you know, it, it’s rare that you have things that transcend the source material and like, it definitely did.

[01:12:39] Christina: So, um,

[01:12:40] Jeff: My godson is a kid in the next season of Fallout

[01:12:44] Christina: oh, that’s awesome.

[01:12:45] Jeff: it’s just, he’s in some scenes here and there, but he got to be in one scene that was just him and an actor that is not yet, uh, known to be in this season, and he didn’t know who it was gonna be, but the actor takes off his helmet and reveals himself in this scene.

[01:12:59] Jeff: And, and I just [01:13:00] say it, it was like, holy fuck. Yeah. It was amazing.

[01:13:03] Christina: That’s so

[01:13:04] Jeff: He showed me all these scenes of getting his makeup set up and like all this amazing stuff. It was so cool. He is just like, uh, he’s about 10, you know? He is like a little

[01:13:12] Christina: Nice. Well that’s, that’s fantastic for him.

[01:13:15] Jeff: Shit, Danny Glamour. Did I get the age of my godson wrong?

[01:13:18] Jeff: It’s Danny Glamour’s son. I, I take it, I

[01:13:21] Brett: Friend of the show, Danny Gl, we haven’t heard from for

[01:13:25] Jeff: He is gonna be in my house. He listens to every episode. He, he like basically live tweets, but on messaging to me when he is

[01:13:32] Christina: Nice. Nice. I love that. Um, uh, the other of, and I just will mention it real quickly. Neither of you have seen it, but I will recommend it, um, that the pit just ended its first season.

[01:13:45] Jeff: Looks good.

[01:13:45] Christina: It’s really good. So a lot of people have made comparisons to er, which is completely fair because it is from, it stars, no.

[01:13:52] Christina: Wiley as an ER doctor. Um, and, and, and, um, and, but this time they’re not in Chicago. They’re in, they’re in Pittsburgh. Um, hence like the [01:14:00] name is kind of a double entendre. ’cause like, they, they call the pit, like where like the, the ER is, and then it’s with two T’s because Pittsburgh, um, and the, the, uh, executive producer is John Wells, who was.

[01:14:11] Christina: One of the main people behind ER and also the West Wing and the creator was a long time writer on er. Um, but the shows other than both being in emergency rooms, like they’re different, right? Like there are obviously it’s 30 years, you know, after er, so a lot has changed in emergency medicine and stuff, but it’s, it’s a really good show.

[01:14:31] Christina: And the concert I think is really clever. And this is how they were able to, to have it to be a relatively low budget, like probably four and a half million an episode or so, which in these days is fairly low budget, is that they basically do an hour from each shift. So like, it starts at like 8:00 PM and then like, uh, or like 7:00 AM or something, and then like ends like.

[01:14:54] Christina: Like midnight or whatever. So it’s like 15 hours of, [01:15:00] um, a whole shift in the er. So

[01:15:02] Jeff: Oh,

[01:15:02] Christina: what, so what’s cool about that is that you see like some of the same patients, like from episode to episode, because that’s one of the underlying things is that, that are 40 million, you know, people that health insurance and who use the ER as their primary doctor.

[01:15:17] Christina: And so you have people who are like waiting all day and then you have like big, you know, events happen and like other stuff and like, you know, doctors kind of come in and off shifts, although most of them are throughout the whole time. It’s, it’s really good. It’s really well done. The acting is incredible.

[01:15:30] Christina: Like the acting is so good and the writing is really good. And, um, and it’s already been renewed for a second season. They’ve already committed. They’re like, we’re going to. Um, do this once a year. It’s kind of like traditional tv. So like they’re already starting to write the next season and it’s gonna be back in January and like that.

[01:15:48] Christina: I also appreciate, ’cause a, it’s like 15 episodes is almost like a network TV length series, right? Like it’s certainly better than what you, what we get in streaming for the most part and b, for them to be [01:16:00] like, no, this can be something you can count on, you know, to come back every year versus having to wait like however many years it’s been since the last of us, or, or whatever, you know?

[01:16:09] Jeff: yeah. That’s all I should probably get to that. By the way, my godson is 13, I mean 12, sorry. 12. 12. But, but was a rockstar long before

[01:16:18] Brett: Did you just text?

[01:16:19] Jeff: fallout. Yes, I did. Yeah.

[01:16:21] Christina: well, you know what, in fairness, in fairness to you, like if he’s 12, he’s probably pa, he’s probably playing 10.

[01:16:26] Jeff: Hmm. Yeah, that’s right. That’s what I meant.

[01:16:29] Brett: Yeah. Yeah,

[01:16:30] Jeff: I was like, these are Hollywood rules. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Hollywood rules. Uh, last TV recommendation. Well, one, my wife and I are watching Season Two of Bad Sisters, which is just an awesome

[01:16:41] Brett: That’s so good.

[01:16:42] Jeff: So good. But we also are just finishing up. We got it took us forever to get to it, but season three of Sex Lives of College Girls, which by the way, when it’s up when my kids pass, I feel a little whatever, but, but I love, it’s a, Mindy Kaling is behind that show, but I love how afterschool special that show

[01:16:58] Christina: Oh, totally. Totally.

[01:16:59] Jeff: [01:17:00] so awesome.

[01:17:01] Christina: No, totally. Although I will say like, after Renee rap left, like I knew it wasn’t getting renewed. I was like, your star is, I was like, your star is gone. Like,

[01:17:09] Jeff: her so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, it’s a fun,

[01:17:13] Christina: It’s a fun

[01:17:14] Jeff: It’s stupid as

[01:17:15] Christina: So dumb. But it’s, I

[01:17:16] Jeff: it’s, but that’s what makes it like an afterschool special, but with sex, like it’s so awesome. Anyway. Also, Timothy Chala Me’s sister is, could not be more, more different than Timothy Chalamet and is fucking amazing.

[01:17:31] Jeff: Better than Bob Dylan.

[01:17:33] Brett: We’re an hour and 15 in, do you guys still wanna do a

[01:17:37] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:17:38] Christina: Yeah,

[01:17:38] Jeff: got time.

[01:17:40] Brett: All right,

[01:17:41] Jeff: We’re just hanging out, having a conversation. Brett, having a, we’re just having a regular non diagnose. Uh

[01:17:48] Christina: a conversational

[01:17:49] Brett: Yeah.

grAPPtitude

[01:17:50] Brett: Alright, I will kick off. Um, uh, gratitude Mine is a well-known app among, I think our listeners and [01:18:00] you guys, uh, carabiner. Um, it is a, an app that at as close to system level as you can get, um, on Mac Os, will, uh, change the way your keys behave. And I have for a long time only use carabiner to create my hyper key, which is when you hold down caps lock and it functions as shift control, alt or option and command all as one key.

[01:18:34] Brett: And I’ve done a lot of stuff with that. What I recently got into, like going a little crazy with it and my favorite current keyboard assignment is I can hold down, um,

[01:18:50] Jeff: we fucking go

[01:18:51] Brett: my, I can hold down semicolon with my right pinky, which is right where it is on the home row.

[01:18:58] Jeff: while doing a [01:19:00] Kegel.

[01:19:01] Brett: Then HIJK become, I’m sorry, H-I-J-I-K-L-I tried it with HJKL for a while, so I’m confused.

[01:19:11] Brett: But, but JIKL become arrow keys for me. So I just hold my pinky down and then use my three remaining fingers to move my cursor around. And with carabiner, that still functions with like command and options. So I can do or, and shift, so I can do selections and everything with, uh, with just my right hand, never leaving the home.

[01:19:39] Brett: So CERs my pick.

[01:19:42] Jeff: I’d like to, I’d like to claim, claim a little bit of my time back. Uh, I don’t know. Is that what they

[01:19:48] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’d like, I’d like to, I’d like to reclaim my time.

[01:19:50] Jeff: I’d like to, I’d like to give a joke I made there a little more space, um, and contextualize it, which is that for anybody that doesn’t already know, and I’m sure all you know, Brett has some of the [01:20:00] craziest fucking keyboard shortcuts ever and can somehow remember them despite claiming or, or not being able to remember last week.

[01:20:08] Jeff: He and I just suggested that one element of your, um, your keyboard shortcut is that you have to be doing kegels while you, while you press these buttons. And I wanna point out that men should also do cables. I, I is what I understand, which

[01:20:21] Brett: Exercising the PC muscle can give you way stronger orgasms.

[01:20:25] Jeff: oh, thank you sponsor. That was not even why I was told it was good. It’s an, it’s incontinence as you get older, that is actually the thing. But, um. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out, get that joke back in there, make a little space for it

[01:20:38] Brett: Well done.

[01:20:39] Jeff: yeah. Brett, I’m sure most of the listeners have Overtired know about carabiner because of you as of like 13, 14 years ago.

[01:20:46] Brett: Yeah,

[01:20:46] Jeff: ’cause you have been pitching that one hard for so long. You’re the reason I had a hyper key,

[01:20:50] Brett: Back so, so it’s currently carabiner elements, but. Like back when I started using it 13, 14 years ago, it was carabiner. [01:21:00] Um, so carabiner elements is actually my pick for the week, but I’m done

[01:21:07] Christina: Nice.

[01:21:08] Jeff: All right, Christina.

[01:21:09] Christina: So mine and I, okay, I feel bad saying this because, um. Regular people can’t use it right now, although they are starting to issue out invites, which is how I got it. But No, but, but, but I mentioned it just because I, I think they’re gonna start rolling it out more. Um, uh, actively. So Arc, the browser company, uh, the company behind arc, they have a, a new AI focused browser that they are calling Dia DIA and it is WebKit based.

[01:21:37] Christina: Um, which is interesting. Um, rather than, I’m not really sure why WebKit ’cause I don’t really think that there is an advantage to WebKit at all. Um Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna use it, I would just use Blink. Like if you’re gonna use, like, in my opinion, I, I don’t, there’s not, there’s conclusively not an [01:22:00] improvement in battery life in WebKit versus Chromium.

[01:22:02] Christina: There’s. Way less of an extension stuff, whatever, regardless. Um, I mean, I don’t have a problem with WebKit, I just don’t necessarily see the point, but, but this is, but it’s still an interesting browser, um, that basically is like AI centric. So like you kind of have like, um, uh, an always open kind of like, uh, window view where you can, you know, ask stuff with like chat GBT or other AI assistance and whatnot, and, and then also ask it about different things that you’re doing and researching.

[01:22:30] Christina: And so it, it’s a cool idea. Uh, dia browser.com is, is where they have, uh, information about it. Um, I’ll see if I can get, uh, an invite for, for YouTube, but it’s, um, it’s, uh, it’s, there are a lot of really interesting, um, we’ve talked about this a lot over the last couple of years, like people taking on different rifts of, of the, the web browser.

[01:22:50] Christina: And, um, I, I am a little bit. Concerned about what this means for arc. I have a feeling that it means that ARC is essentially [01:23:00] just in maintenance mode. I’ve been getting that impression too, which, which sucks because I really like arc, um, a lot.

[01:23:06] Jeff: cool. Very

[01:23:07] Christina: But, um, maybe, I think, I think that Dia they’re trying to basically be a little bit more broad because the only problem with ARC is that once you really get into it, like I think it’s awesome, but the learning curve and like the time that you have to spend with it is significant.

[01:23:21] Christina: Like for me, even I will say that like I had to spend a lot of time with Arc to really have it click for me. And I don’t think that most people are willing to go through that time and I don’t blame them. Um, DIA just in the little bit of time I’ve, I’ve been using it I guess since like Monday, um, on my personal devices and it’s, it’s pretty cool.

[01:23:37] Christina: It is Apple silicon only right now. I hope that they will bring it to um, uh, uh, you know, Intel Max. ’cause there are still lots of them out there. Um, and I would like to use it on my iMac, but, um, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s kind of a cool concept and there’s some really neat ideas and stuff that they’re doing. So Zoia is my pick.

[01:23:54] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. My, I, because I’m not a [01:24:00] Linux guy, this Linux pick I’m about to make, I will not go on and on about. Um, but I have, so I moved into an operations director role at my organization and we’re like member owned, cooperative with like seven member owners and just one employee who’s not a member.

[01:24:16] Jeff: So it’s a small group, but, um, but like we’ve just never, in the history of kind of leadership in the organization, there’s never been a point where like there’s a lot of thought about security or, or how we might be at risk or how our use of, or, you know, the company’s email might or something goes wrong, how that could impact us, you know, various things.

[01:24:38] Jeff: I’ve played with Kelly Linux, which is where I’m getting with this for over the years, like many times, um, just ’cause I find the toolbox insane. And for anybody that doesn’t know, it’s like it’s a distro of, of, of Linux that is just preloaded with every like, you know, quote unquote ethical and not ethical hacker tool.

[01:24:55] Jeff: You can imagine. I mean, it’s definitely like you, it’s definitely like getting into a tank and [01:25:00] being like, well, this one lets me drive, but that one really fucks people up. Um, but, uh, but I’ve been doing this, I’ve been doing something that, like, I remember I went to a journalism, like a computer journalist nerd conference years ago, and there was a New York Times journalist there, and she did a, she did a whole session called Docs

[01:25:18] Christina: Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that.

[01:25:19] Jeff: was like, yeah, go see all the different ways you’re out there, you are exposed, whatever it is. And so I mostly do what they call, you know, like open source intelligence, uh, is what I’m playing with with Kelly Linux, where it’s just like simple things that there have been services for.

[01:25:35] Jeff: Like type in a username and see. Um, you know, how many accounts exist out there. And honestly, I really recommend people doing that for themselves. ’cause it’s like, if you’re our age and you’ve been on the internet this long, you’re like, oh, fuck that one too. And then there’s a whole, like the, the CLI for have I been pod uh, is amazing.

[01:25:53] Jeff: And you can use all the functions on the website, but you can use, I can like write a script with all of our members on it [01:26:00] and check it and you can of course check passwords, all that stuff. Um, and so I’ve basically been working on like learning all the various tools for open source intelligence and then writing a script that just checks every once in a while for all of our members and, and my family members and some friends.

[01:26:15] Jeff: Uh, and then allows me to sort of like send them information so it can be like, Hey, just so you know, this is where you exist, this is whatever. Um, and it’s great. It’s a step up from what I did a long time ago, which was part of actually the Docs Yourself thing, which is I set up a. A Google, uh, alert for pretty much everybody in my family, every colleague, every whatever else, so that if someone shows up on the internet in a way that they didn’t mean to you, see it right away.

[01:26:39] Jeff: But anyway, I, I love, I mean, I’m not a Linux guy at all, like, uh, but I really love, um, getting into an immersive world like that. And Cali Linux is just like, if you’re interested in a little bit, definitely takes some, like having a tutorial by your side. But like, it’s pretty, it’s pretty enlightening and amazing to just dip in [01:27:00] even just the open source intelligence tools and, and get a sense of what you can know about yourself online.

[01:27:05] Jeff: But what can be known about you? It’s pretty powerful and like humbling.

[01:27:10] Christina: No, I totally agree. I totally agree. And I, I think Cali is an awesome distribution. Um, it’s one of those that you can, like, if you wanna try it out, like you can run it in a BM or you can put it on a USB thumb drive and like

[01:27:19] Jeff: I have mine on a raspberry pie and

[01:27:21] Christina: I was gonna say,

[01:27:22] Jeff: scale.

[01:27:23] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say, um, raspberry pie is great for another thing I would say.

[01:27:27] Christina: Um, and I don’t have any, you know, listeners, this will apply to, uh, ’cause we know our listenership, but if you, because it, it can be so useful for the scenarios that you described, Jeff. I often use it, um, within, um, WSL, the Windows subsystem for Linux because they actually have a version that they’ve, uh, you know, uh, like a distro so to speak, that you can install for WSL.

[01:27:48] Christina: They’ve even, like, we’re one of the first ones to become part of like the modern WSL infra. And so they even have like a whole way where you can even launch like the gooey apps from within Windows. So if you want, but one, and what’s nice about [01:28:00] that, and, and I I think especially think about like cis admin types or people who might be doing these things, is that like, okay, you have a Windows machine, you run, run, run some of these tools.

[01:28:08] Christina: You can also have it integrate with some of like maybe your, your Windows files and other stuff to pipe through without having to do like the normal, you know, VM type of thing or, or, or, or SSH thing. So, um. So, yeah, just throwing that out there. ’cause um, I, I used to sometimes communicate with that team, um, when I would talk with the WSL folks and, and Callie was always like, in my opinion, like one of like the best, like WSL Distros, um, uh, like more, you know, specific ones other than like, you know, like the, a bunch who were fedora or, or whatever.

[01:28:39] Christina: So.

[01:28:40] Jeff: Yeah, well it’s great too because most of the tools, what’s nice is the whole menu’s there. It’s like going to a Denny’s, but you can go have a hamburger at home, like you can go onto your Mac and get into home brew and, and install most of these tools. But like it’s a nice place to just be immersed in it and be like, what’s this do?

[01:28:55] Jeff: What’s this

[01:28:56] Christina: well, that’s the thing. That’s, that’s why I think it’s so great to have it, like on a raspberry pie or on a thumb drive [01:29:00] or like a WSL like instance because yeah, to your point, you can have this installed basically in any Linux TRO or on Mac os. Um, but like, you don’t have to worry about that.

[01:29:10] Christina: It’s all one place and, uh, and, and it, and that makes it really cool.

[01:29:14] Jeff: Yeah. Awesome.

[01:29:17] Brett: All right, well it’s two o’clock here and I haven’t had lunch and I have to pee so bad, so it has been so good talking to you guys. Thank you. But I think we should call it

[01:29:29] Jeff: Get some pee.

[01:29:30] Brett: get some, get some pee. I.

[01:29:31] Christina: Get some pee.

Hosts Brett Terpstra, Christina Warren, and Jeff Severns Guntzel welcome special guest Corey O’Brien, author of ‘Two Truths and a Lie,’ who shares his existential journey of writing and promoting his first novel, a rich “noir cyberpunk” entry. From the gritty soul of cyberpunk to the calming practice of metal welding, this episode is a rollercoaster of conversations, insights, and creative tools. Overtired style.

You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network

BackBeat Media Podcast Network

Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

Two Truths and a Lie With Cory O’Brien

Introduction and Special Guest Announcement

[00:00:00] Brett: Hello, welcome to a very special Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severns Guntzel. And this week we have the Long Promise special guest Corey O’Brien, author of Two Truths and a Lie. How’s it going, Corey?

[00:00:21] Cory: It’s going great. Happy to be here.

[00:00:23] Jeff: Hi, Corey. We’re saying hello.

[00:00:30] Brett: Um, yeah, so we’re, we’re definitely gonna talk about the book. I have filled Corey in on kind of our usual format, and he’s down for, for playing along with what we usually do. So, um, I, I feel a little weird jumping right into Mental Health Corner. I want a little bit more robust of an intro.

Corey O’Brien’s Background and Career

[00:00:54] Brett: So, Corey, tell us a little about you.

[00:00:58] Cory: Uh, sure. [00:01:00] It’s a, it’s a, it’s a big question.

[00:01:02] Brett: It is. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. That was so vague.

[00:01:05] Jeff: Tell me who you are.

[00:01:06] Cory: all right. Uh, I am a writer game designer man about town. I,

[00:01:15] Jeff: that’s you. I saw.

[00:01:16] Cory: yeah, yeah. I’m all over the place. You see a guy that’s me

[00:01:20] Jeff: That’s you.

[00:01:20] Cory: watching you, counting your teeth. Uh, I, I, uh, I, I used to write a website called, uh, mire Told where I would tell mythology like it was 3:00 AM and I was drunk in a chat room.

[00:01:34] Cory: And I did that. I did that for many years, parlayed it into a small level of notoriety that somehow got my publisher to pitch me to everyone as the beloved internet humorist, which I still, I still find kind of embarrassing. But, uh, then, then over time, like what I’ve always wanted to do is write books. Uh, and so over time sort of parly the notoriety from the blog into.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Cory: A career writing for video games. Uh, I’ve written for, uh, the comedy dating sim called Monster Prom. And then, uh, my favorite game that I, that I worked on is Hollow Vista, but you can only play it if you have an iPhone, unfortunately, which I don’t, I haven’t even played it in its native environment. I’ve played it, I’ve played it in like a browser version, but, uh, and then, uh, and now I work for like, um, for like fancy 3D games, writing dialogue, trees and stuff.

[00:02:29] Cory: But, uh, my, my number one passion is writing books and I’m very excited that I finally have this novel out. And so that’s, that, that, that brings me to this present moment.

[00:02:41] Christina: Um, so.

Transition to Fictional Writing

[00:02:43] Christina: How, how, um, I guess what was your process, I guess, moving from, uh, have you been like, I guess like writing short stories, like your whole life, uh, you know, I know you’ve done the, the, uh, the, the humor thing and, and you’ve worked, um, you know, um, game stuff. But what was, I guess, your process of transitioning to, um, [00:03:00] uh, fair, um, fictional, like narrative writing.

[00:03:04] Cory: I, I have been writing stories for as long as like, I knew that was a thing you could do, and I, I used to write a number of short stories. I, like, I went to graduate school for creative writing. I wrote a lot of short stories then yeah, I left that part

[00:03:19] Brett: Yeah, that’s an important piece.

[00:03:21] Christina: I was gonna say that helps,

[00:03:22] Cory: But I, I, I don’t think, I don’t think that graduate school, like graduate school certainly gave me a lot of opportunity to practice writing, but I don’t think, I don’t think it turned me into a writer.

[00:03:32] Cory: I

[00:03:32] Christina: No, you already were, but, but, but, but it, but yeah. But I think the opportunity to practice is, is probably helpful.

[00:03:37] Cory: yeah. And also meeting people and being in an environment where that’s encouraged. I really think of graduate school as like paying an enormous amount of money to larp that you have the job that you wanted to have for, for like two years, which is, I, I had, I had the luxury of being able to do that. Um, but I, what I have always specifically wanted to do is write long form narrative.

[00:03:59] Cory: I [00:04:00] wanted to write novels. I, I don’t, I don’t know exactly what it is. I think my best explanation for why is that the stories that have affected me the most that have given me like a real physical, visceral reaction have been books because they can set something up over a long period and then like bring it all together at once in this rush.

[00:04:22] Cory: And, uh, so that’s, that’s always been really exciting to me. And so that’s always been what I wanted to do and I’ve just basically spent many years working myself up to that. ’cause writing books is hard.

[00:04:34] Jeff: Writing books is like existential. I, I’ve never written a book and everyone I know that has, it’s like a, it’s a journey. It’s a, it’s a dark journey sometimes. A lovely journey. Is that true for you?

[00:04:45] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I, I’m sure that there are some people, I mean, I know that there are some people for whom books are just like, they just, they just write ’em, they just

[00:04:55] Brett: Jeremy Robinson. Jeremy Robinson puts out a book like every two months [00:05:00] in their, their bangers, and I don’t know how anyone does that.

[00:05:03] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I have sort of come to grips with the fact that that is not my temperament. Like, I do like writing. I do like, eventually I do like the stuff that I write when I have enough distance from it. But it is a process, especially because I’m already always doing so many things. Uh, you know, maybe if I was locked in a room like they did with Douglas Adams later in his career, I could just like write a book real fast.

[00:05:30] Cory: Generally write the first draft really fast and then like. Go insane. Trying to, trying to write the, the, the future drafts and really tear myself

[00:05:41] Jeff: oh my God, I have so many process questions. I’m

[00:05:43] Jeff: gonna

Mental Health Corner

[00:05:44] Brett: well, let’s make, let’s make this our mental health corner. Let’s make it all about Corey.

[00:05:48] Cory: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Brett: And, and I would be curious to know what your mental health was like while writing this last book and what it’s like now that it is officially [00:06:00] released.

[00:06:00] Cory: Woo. That’s a good question. I don’t wanna be the only person doing a mental health check-in though.

[00:06:06] Christina: Oh, no, no, no, no. We’ll all, no, no, no, no, no. We’ll, we’ll all go. We’ll, we’ll go.

[00:06:10] Brett: Do you wanna go first or last then?

[00:06:12] Cory: Well, I’m, I’m in your house, so I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do whatever the done thing is.

[00:06:18] Brett: Okay, I’ll go first. I’ll kick it off. Uh, I’ll keep mine short.

Brett’s Job Update

[00:06:23] Brett: Um, my job, we talked last week at length about how messed up my job situation was. Um, I went to therapy for it and my therapist was very helpful in helping me see that my manager that I have so many conflicts with also had some IFS type parts coming up.

[00:06:46] Brett: Um, and we were able to kind of hit like a working flow, but at the same time, and don’t tell my manager this, this is private,

[00:06:57] Jeff: I think you’re telling your manager this.

[00:06:59] Brett: I. [00:07:00] I reached out to a pre, like one of the first managers I ever had who had gotten moved off. There was a whole, like the first major shakeup was when she got moved off to another team.

[00:07:11] Brett: Um, and I talked to her and I said, Hey, here’s what I’m doing these days. You know, any other teams that might be able to use that skillset? And she’s like, well, I could. Um, and her headcount is frozen right now, but she thinks she might be able to make an exception. So problem might be solved just by going to a work for a manager I already respect and I already get along with.

[00:07:37] Brett: And that, that alone, just knowing that’s a possibility, has made it easier for me to deal with the present, um, and to not be in a constant state of panic and frustration. So, yeah. Uh, think things are better. This week I.

[00:07:53] Christina: Good.

[00:07:54] Jeff: awesome. What a good thing to hear.

[00:07:59] Christina: sure.[00:08:00]

[00:08:01] Jeff: Who’s got the birds? It’s such a nice sound.

[00:08:03] Brett: thought that was you.

[00:08:04] Jeff: No. Fuck no, man. We got nothing

[00:08:06] Brett: I think, I think that must be Corey then

[00:08:08] Cory: Yes,

[00:08:09] Jeff: Thanks for bringing the birds, Corey,

[00:08:11] Cory: Yeah, no worries.

[00:08:12] Jeff: tropical, uh, Chicago

[00:08:14] Brett: Well, and he is got the tropical shirt on too, so it’s just kind of a,

[00:08:18] Jeff: it the shirt? Is it the shirt I’m hearing?

[00:08:20] Cory: It is, it’s the shirt. The weather here has been wildly unpredictable. This is the time of year where you really can’t predict what the weather is gonna be from moment to moment. And

[00:08:30] Brett: was almost 80 here yesterday and tonight it’s gonna snow.

[00:08:35] Cory: yeah, yeah. That happened a couple weeks ago here, 80 into snowing. And so you see a lot of people around here, uh, when it’s 80 degrees wearing a sweatshirt. ’cause they’re like, don’t trust

[00:08:44] Christina: don’t know. No,

[00:08:46] Brett: It’s still March.

[00:08:48] Christina: that’s still marsh. No, I mean, and that’s the worst because, uh, at least for me anyway, like my, my sinuses, my, like my allergies really go badly when there’s, uh, sudden weather changes. So if it goes from like really cold to really hot or like, [00:09:00] and the barometric pressure changes, like my migraines go crazy, my sinuses go

[00:09:04] Brett: my, my pots and my dizziness get way worse with the barometric changes. Like today, with the barometer shifting the way it is, I’m like, I’m, it’s like I’m drunk walking around the house. I’m tipsy everywhere. But anyway. Jeff, Jeff, why don’t you go.

Jeff’s Workshop and Squirrel Saga

[00:09:20] Jeff: Uh, I’m, you know, this happens every year, uh, when it’s this time, but yesterday when it was 75, the rest of the week is forties. But, um. I officially opened up my workshop and, uh, and it’s all completely ready for projects. Um, Corey, I have a workshop where I rebuild very old machinery and I do some welding and, and woodwork and just general fuckery.

[00:09:44] Jeff: Um, and, and it’s like my favorite thing in the world. It’s my favorite place to be. Um, and I feel most landed in that place. And, and in a time like this, especially being able to kind of open that up and just be sitting in there, it’s the best. And I get to, um, return to a [00:10:00] project I started in the fall, which is rebuilding this a hundred year old, um, lathe for doing metal working.

[00:10:05] Jeff: It’s about two tons. Um, and, and it’s, you know, I, I, I cleared out grease, uh, from the Harding administration when I was cleaning it, and now I’m, I’m at the kind of rebuilding point and it’s awesome. And so I bring that, I, I bring that here. I mean, of all the other things, whether it’s medications, therapy, just generally taking care of myself, having a place like that where I feel.

[00:10:28] Jeff: That landed, um, is such a huge, huge thing. The problem, which I won’t go into now, but maybe future episodes, is I’m in a prote protracted war with a squirrel that insists on living in my garage. And, um, and I’ve been taking a lot of video. My wife is constantly catches me outside arguing with the squirrel.

[00:10:46] Jeff: Um, and it has become a defining, uh, part of my life over the last, uh, I think week and a half as of yesterday, it chewed through a fucking window frame to get back in. Uh, I respect this squirrel. Um, and it’s maybe giving me a, [00:11:00] this is mental health. It’s, it might be giving me a lesson in resilience, um, and durability, uh, in a hard time.

[00:11:05] Jeff: So that’s my, there’s my check-in.

[00:11:07] Brett: Have you seen the, he’s an engineer. He’s super charismatic. I can’t remember his name. He made the glitter

[00:11:13] Cory: Oh, like Mark Rober is, are you, is that

[00:11:15] Christina: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:16] Cory: Who

[00:11:16] Brett: Didn’t he? Was he the one who Yeah. The squirrel obstacle

[00:11:20] Jeff: So good, so Yeah. Okay. I’ll, I’ll link that in the show notes for anyone who hasn’t seen it.

[00:11:25] Brett: It is very entertaining.

[00:11:29] Jeff: That’s awesome yeah, I, I am sorry that you’re having like, uh, uh, you know, the, this, it seems like the squirrel is winning your, your, your battle. I, I, I am sorry for that.

[00:11:37] Jeff: so far. But the situation is fluid.

[00:11:41] Cory: I just think it’s, I just think it’s sick that you have a workshop. That’s something that I aspire to for sure. Like

[00:11:46] Jeff: It’s uh,

[00:11:47] Cory: want that.

[00:11:48] Jeff: it’s a lovely place to be.

[00:11:50] Brett: I don’t, I don’t have a place for one. Or I would start, like, as I’m able to afford machinery, I would start building a workshop. I would [00:12:00] love to get into woodworking. Uh, I would love to get into metal working. Like I’m super

[00:12:05] Jeff: Come up here, I’ll teach you how to weld.

[00:12:08] Brett: I know how to weld. I know how to lathe.

[00:12:10] Jeff: yeah. You welded in school, didn’t you?

[00:12:12] Brett: yeah. Like I know how to do most of that stuff.

[00:12:15] Brett: My, I’m a little rusty,

[00:12:17] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:17] Brett: it. I just don’t have any access to the tools. Yep. Got it, got

[00:12:22] Cory: teach me how to weld. I don’t know how

[00:12:24] Jeff: Come on over. You’re seven hours away by what kind, what kinda welding do you like Jeff?

[00:12:29] Jeff: Oh, I do. What is, what is known as the hot glue gun of welding, which is MIG welding. Uh, I would love to learn tig, but, um, I, I don’t have, yeah, it’s not, not my time.

[00:12:40] Brett: I, uh, I find a settling torch welding to be very meditative.

[00:12:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:47] Brett: and if you’ve never done it on heroin, let me tell you that is,

[00:12:51] Jeff: I know. I haven’t tried that yet,

[00:12:53] Brett: the most relaxed you’ll ever be.

[00:12:56] Jeff: um,

[00:12:56] Christina: Okay. I, I’m, I’m just gonna throw this out there for, for any of our, our past or future [00:13:00] advertisers, um, do not do heroin and, uh, and, and, and weld. Like, we’re not recommending that.

[00:13:07] Brett: Eh, eh,

[00:13:08] Jeff: but that’s like, I disagree.

[00:13:10] Brett: I have, I have mult. I am, I have multiple art pieces around my house that, that beg to differ.

[00:13:16] Jeff: I think when I think when one has an addiction, everything you do, you do with the addiction alongside,

[00:13:21] Christina: I’m, I’m just, I’m, I’m just saying, I’m just saying. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like this.

[00:13:26] Jeff: this is the do not try at home. Warning

[00:13:28] Brett: if it wasn’t obvious, I, uh, I have a history of drug addiction.

[00:13:33] Cory: Okay. Yeah, I was, I was picking that up.

[00:13:36] Jeff: that up,

[00:13:37] Brett: You’re tracking with that.

[00:13:38] Brett: All right, those writers, those writers don’t miss a thing.

[00:13:43] Brett: so Christina, how are you?

[00:13:45] Christina: I am doing pretty well. Um, I don’t have a huge update, I guess. Um, and I, and I don’t wanna talk, I don’t wanna get into the, the, the specifics, um, of, of, of anything.

Christina’s New Job Experience

[00:13:53] Christina: But, you know, I started a new job and, um, and it’s been going pretty well, but it has been a transition and it’s been, um, [00:14:00] it’s been a little bit difficult because.

[00:14:02] Christina: My team is all located in other places, and so I feel sort of isolated from, you know, people because I, I have meetings and stuff and I get to, you know, meet people like over a video call, but I haven’t met anyone in person yet, um, except for a, a few of the folks that I worked with before, but I don’t work with them day in and day out, um, in the new job.

[00:14:21] Christina: And so, um, but I had a, I had a nice meeting with my, with my manager this week. Um, I’m feeling, um, a little bit better about, about things. Um, but it’s just been sort of a process and so that’s just been kinda my general mental health for the last probably six weeks or so, is just like a lot of changes, a lot of adjustments, a lot of trying to figure out new systems, new ways of working, as well as new expectations and all of that.

[00:14:45] Christina: Um, and then doing it in, uh, an environment where, you know, you aren’t, like physically with people, um, is, um, it’s challenging, but I mean, it’s not insurmountable or anything, but it’s, it’s, uh. It’s [00:15:00] different than the way I’ve, than the experiences I’ve had before. Like I’ve worked, you know, um, more remotely from my, uh, other team members, uh, frequently, but usually there were either more opportunities to get to know people like in a, uh, you know, non-work or even work context, or you at least had like one person that you knew like in real life, so you could, you know, kind of use that as a way to kind of, you know, bridge stuff.

[00:15:26] Christina: Uh, this has been, uh, a little bit different. And so that’s, that’s been the thing that I’ve kind of been, uh, struggling with because, uh, and, and I, I have even greater empathy for people who like started new jobs in 2020 when everybody was, was completely, you know, isolated and, and remote because, I don’t know, uh.

[00:15:44] Christina: I, I don’t think I would’ve been able to survive that if, especially if I wouldn’t have been able to go outside. Like, I don’t think that, that I would’ve been okay with that at all. But, uh, but no, but things are, things are improving and I, I like my manager a lot and I’m, you know, hopeful about kind of like where things are going is just a, a lot of [00:16:00] trying to sort out, okay, what are the things that I need to do?

[00:16:03] Christina: What are the things I want to do? How do all these systems work? How can I influence getting to know and get to meet the right people? Because it is just a completely different, uh, world that I’m in from, you know, what I was used to before, which I, I, I knew the systems and the people really well, so it’s just been an adjustment.

[00:16:22] Brett: Can I ask a personal question? Um, and tell me if I dig too deep. Um, ’cause this, this question could be a trigger for me. Um, but so when I’m in situations where I’m dealing with so many unknowns in like my professional life, in my personal life, I become very, uh, we’ll say inaccessible. Like I just don’t have room to be a good partner.

[00:16:48] Brett: Um, and I end up leaning on my partner very heavily to like, help me regulate all the stress. How, how are you doing with all of these unknowns, [00:17:00] with all of this? Like, I, I mean, it’s stressful whether it’s like a rough situation or not. It’s stressful figuring all this out. How, how are you doing at home?

[00:17:11] Christina: Um, I’m okay. I mean, I think that it, that things could, could be better, but I think things are okay. I think that I’m probably similar to you and that I just don’t have as much space to be able to give to other things. And so, uh, even not at home, just like my other relationships, frankly, have kind of fallen off a little bit.

[00:17:28] Christina: Like some of them, you know, my more like surface like friendships, like, you know, the group chats are pinging like a thousand times a day, and that’s really helpful. But like anything more substantive, I don’t really have. Space for that at the moment. So, yeah, I mean, I think

[00:17:42] Brett: Is your, is your partner forgiving about that?

[00:17:44] Christina: Yeah, I think so.

[00:17:45] Christina: I mean, I, but I, there’s also not really a, a, um, a choice in the matter, if that makes any

[00:17:52] Brett: Sure, sure. That doesn’t, yeah, that doesn’t always mean it’s easy, but yeah. Okay. Thank you. Um, [00:18:00] all right, Corey, you’re, you are no longer the only one to go.

[00:18:04] Cory: All right. Hell yeah. Thank you. Thank you for showing me the way.

[00:18:08] Jeff: Oh yes, yes. Come along further. Now let us go to this room.

[00:18:16] Cory: Uh, yeah.

Corey’s Mental Health and Medication

[00:18:17] Cory: So this month has been a maelstrom of events and responsibilities and travel, um, and the highest emotional highs and the lowest lows. I, um, I take, I take medication for bipolar. I, I I, I

[00:18:43] Cory: feel to the club.

[00:18:44] Cory: I, I feel weird about saying specific brand names because I feel like I’m advertising. But I will say that I took, I took antidepressants, various antidepressants for a long time, and none of them really felt like they were doing anything.

[00:18:59] Cory: And, [00:19:00] uh, that taking just like a relatively low dose of a, of a, of a bipolar medication completely changed the game for me. Like I. I, I used to struggle a lot with suicidal ideation and just like, you know, the, the smallest things would send me into a pit of despair. Uh, and I’m doing a lot better with that.

[00:19:20] Cory: The, uh, the problem is I’m very dependent on that medication, and so if I forget to take it for a day, like there will come apart, there will come a time in the next day where I will just completely crater and not know why for several hours and then be like, oh, oh, I see that, that happened to me a couple of days ago.

[00:19:43] Cory: And it, it coincided with me trying to like, work on my next creative project and like ending up lying on the floor, being like, why am I even doing this? This is so fucked. I, like, I, why did I even try and do this in the first place? It’s broken, it’s gonna take me seven more years. And, [00:20:00] uh, and then, and then like, it wasn’t until like I had to go do something else, I had to go pick up my little brother.

[00:20:05] Cory: Uh, and I was like driving on the way there and I was like. Oh, oh, I see what’s happening.

[00:20:13] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:14] Christina: Yep. Yeah, I think we, I think we’ve all had those moments. Uh, like, uh, if, if you’re on something, especially if it has like a shorter half-life where you start to feel either the withdrawal effects or like the lack of the medicine working one or the other, and you’re like, oh, okay. Um, this is what’s going on.

[00:20:30] Christina: Um, it, it’s not, not not to compare the two ’cause they’re different, but it is some similar, like, there will come a time like every month where I will be like going through something emotional or, or feeling a certain way and I’ll be like, oh, right, right, right. Okay. I’m on my period. That’s what this is.

[00:20:45] Jeff: Mm.

[00:20:46] Jeff: Yeah. is, it, I think it is similar. I think it’s ’cause it’s a, it, it, it takes a little bit for, for, for my conscious mind, certainly to catch up to whatever the sort of chemical state of my mind is.

[00:20:57] Christina: Yes.

[00:20:59] Jeff: Yeah, yeah,

[00:20:59] Brett: I, [00:21:00] we don’t, we don’t have to mention names, but I will because it is generic. Uh, but I take Lamotrigine for bipolar and

[00:21:09] Cory: do I.

[00:21:09] Brett: there you go.

[00:21:10] Jeff: that’s, that’s three of four of us.

[00:21:13] Brett: and,

[00:21:13] Jeff: Christina, we can send you some.

[00:21:15] Brett: Our guest.

[00:21:16] Christina: I’m

[00:21:17] Cory: No, don’t take some, because, because it true, it’s true. That part of the problem is the withdrawal. Like I, I do feel weird that I’m like

[00:21:23] Cory: fully addicted to it is. Yep. That’s where I was gonna go. ’cause our, our guest last week also takes Lamotrigine. So this is basically a Lamotrigine podcast at this point. Is this the moine, uh, corner but I, I will get, if I miss my dose of Lamotrigine, I will, it’ll take about eight hours, but I will get all skin crawly and it’ll feel like, it’ll feel like withdrawal and, and I’ll get crabby and cranky and then the mood swings will, like, I won’t regulate as well.

[00:21:57] Brett: Like ups become real ups and [00:22:00] downs become real downs and Yeah. Like I have gone, it, it is, I have, there have been times I have not realized I missed a dose until the next dose,

[00:22:09] Christina: Right. Be because you didn’t feel it. Um, I, I was on a, an on an antidepressant, um, uh, fl lie, Effexor, I guess would be the, um, uh, professional, uh, name or, or the commercial name. And I’m not a, I’m not on this anymore, so this is not a, a advertisement, but I was on it for like, the better part of 20 years. And, uh, it has an incredibly short half-life, like to, to the point that it’s a problem.

[00:22:32] Christina: Like you will, you’ll feel the withdrawal like quick and, and it is, and it is a bad withdrawal. And so I got, I had to get very good about not forgetting my meds because it would be like four hours that you would start to, like, I would start to feel like. You know, like wanting to peel my skin off and, and like the, like the bitchiness would like come out like times 10 and it would be like, oh, okay.

[00:22:53] Christina: To the point that actually that medicine wasn’t working for me anymore and I needed to get off of it. And like, it was a very [00:23:00] protracted process to get off of it because the withdrawal was like not great. But, uh, so, which is all to say like, everyone, like take your meds at the right schedule. Like don’t fuck up your body

[00:23:10] Brett: this is, this is, this is a frequent topic for us. Well, and I.

[00:23:13] Cory: Take your meds on the right schedule and the smallest amount that you can get away with

[00:23:17] Christina: 1000%. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

[00:23:20] Jeff: even pulling back from specifics, I think the, one of the hard things about, like I, you know, I started, I think my first experience with medication was around 2020, like that 2020 is what we’re gonna call it. Um, and I think that like what usually leads to, in my case, what leads to me being, you know, prescribed a medication is something that I start to realize is like.

[00:23:45] Jeff: Really off, but maybe can be helped rather than just being this like static thing that’s part of me. And so then you get the medication and there’s a little bit of relief if it’s working. Um, and, and I think I let my guard down a little bit and I forget to sort of be witness to myself. And, and [00:24:00] usually then when I notice something similar to what you were saying, Corey is, it’s like, and, and Brett, it’s, it’s the point at which my skin is crawling.

[00:24:07] Jeff: And, and then I’m like, oh my God, how did I miss this? You know? Um, and, and I just like think that that experience, I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2021. And, um, one thing that came out of that that was just wonderful is I, I learned a lot about red flags. I learned a lot about where I could trust myself, but more importantly where I could trust that I couldn’t trust myself.

[00:24:31] Jeff: Um, which was painful at first, but then became. Kind of, I don’t know. It, it’s great. It’s like any, I, I look for those opportunities now inside of these experiences to be like, okay, what have I learned about myself and, and, and how can I hold that without, uh, without, you know, this context of I’m broken, right.

[00:24:48] Jeff: Just kind of like, anyway, but the specific to the ultra ultra gene, if I am, if I’m 36 hours out or less from having taken one, I am a, I am a mess. It is a [00:25:00] very, very unpleasant experience. So let us all remember. Yeah. It’s scary. It’s scary.

[00:25:05] Cory: to be dependent on something like

[00:25:07] Jeff: Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah.

[00:25:09] Christina: we talk about that a lot too. Like, like there’s, there’s like a, like the, at least for me anyway, the, the, um, dichotomy between like knowing you need these things, uh, to function and to live. And then like, also be independent on these things where, you know, like, at least in my mind, like I, I, I have this stupid notion like, oh, I should be able to just control this myself.

[00:25:30] Christina: And, and it’s like, no, but you actually can’t. Uh, that’s not how, um, the biology works. And, and that’s not how like, you know, like, like brain chemistry works. We can’t just will ourselves into these things. That’s, that’s, that’s not possible. Um, but at the same time, knowing it’s like, okay, there are these things that we put into our bodies that can have, uh, positive or negative, um, you know, impacts on how we act.

[00:25:53] Christina: And that’s kind of a, that’s cool, but that’s also kind of fucked up too. You know.

[00:25:58] Cory: yeah, yeah. I.

[00:25:59] Brett: I am [00:26:00] demonstrating great restraint by not re by not making a heroin joke at this Oh, well, I was gonna

[00:26:05] Christina: I was gonna say, I.

[00:26:06] Cory: say something about heroin actually.

[00:26:08] Jeff: Okay, well go.

[00:26:10] Cory: I, I, I was, yeah, well, I, I have a complicated relationship with like the, the idea of substance dependency because my brother died of a heroin

[00:26:18] Brett: oh my gosh. sorry to hear that.

[00:26:21] Cory: Um, yeah. Yeah. It was a hell of a year.

[00:26:25] Brett: Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry if I’m making light of it. I,

[00:26:28] Cory: no, I mean, that was, that was eight years of my life, but I, uh, I fortunately survived. I, uh, I can relate though.

[00:26:36] Cory: I make jokes about it all the time. Not about my brother specifically, but about

[00:26:40] Brett: Sure.

[00:26:42] Cory: Um, so it’s not, it’s not a big deal. It does get me sometimes, but, um, especially ’cause there’s a lot of, heroin has showed up in a lot of weird ways in my life throughout, throughout time. But, um, yeah, I have a, I have a weird relationship to substance [00:27:00] dependency because of that.

[00:27:01] Cory: Because, uh, you know, I don’t, I don’t wanna end up that same way.

[00:27:07] Christina: Right.

[00:27:08] Cory: Um, and the book, the book is actually partially dedicated to him too. I think. I think he, I think he really would’ve dug it. And there’s some stuff in the book about, you know, watching someone who’s close to you sort of not be able to help themselves in a way.

[00:27:23] Jeff: Older brother or younger brother?

[00:27:25] Cory: brother. Much older. Yeah. I a half brother.

[00:27:28] Jeff: Okay.

[00:27:28] Brett: Is your brother George, was your brother, George?

[00:27:32] Cory: Uh, George. Oh no, George is my grandfather.

[00:27:37] Brett: Oh, okay. Case. Case Wine Yeah. My grandfather also died in 2016.

[00:27:43] Christina: Oh, I’m so

[00:27:43] Jeff: Really? Oh my God.

[00:27:45] Cory: a hell of a year actually. Yeah. I, one of my, my, my, my only regret in terms of that dedication page is it should be dedicated to three people. It should be dedicated to case George, uh, and my buddy from grad school, Ryan, who killed himself the same year.[00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Cory: Um, he was an amazing writer and, uh, it was, yeah, it’s something that I still think about all the time, obviously, but yeah, it was just a, just a real wave of tragedy.

[00:28:13] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:28:14] Brett: We could also do a whole episode on suicidal ideation that could get really dark really fast. So we’re gonna avoid that since this is, this is technically part of your yeah. Yeah. Right, right.

[00:28:26] Christina: I was gonna, I was, I was gonna say. Yeah. But, but, but you’re, you’re mentioning like at, at the top, like you’ve had some like the, you know, like highest highs and like lowest lows.

Promoting the Novel

[00:28:33] Christina: Um, and I don’t want you to get into the specifics of, of either of those, but can you talk a little bit about, since this is, um, this isn’t your first book, but this is your first, um, novel, like what has the, the process been in terms of promoting this and like sharing with, with, with the world and like, you know, um, uh, I guess like, uh, dealing with feedback on, on what you’ve obviously put a lot of, uh, time into and, and

[00:28:53] Christina: have been wanting to do for a long time.

[00:28:55] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it’s, it’s been, it’s been super cool. It’s like [00:29:00] I, I, I had sort of picked as a semi arbitrary thing that I wanted to publish a novel by the time I was 35. I’m 35,

[00:29:07] Jeff: Nice.

[00:29:08] Cory: novel, so I feel like I, I achieved the thing that I wanted to achieve. Um, and you know, on, on the one hand, there’s a lot of like excitement and pride associated with that.

[00:29:19] Cory: You know, when I look, when I like, reread the parts of the book now I’m like, oh, this is actually good. Like this book’s actually good. And that’s, that’s cool. After doubting myself so much. Um, and it’s cool, you know, I went, I, I was in, I was in New York for part of the book tour and, um, it was, it was great to like have some, have a bunch of old friends show up to the book thing.

[00:29:40] Cory: And also people that I didn’t know who the publisher brought or whoever, I had a really cool talk at the book event there with, um, Maddie Lipsky, who’s a really talented like writer and, and comic artists and stuff. And she, she interviewed me for that. It was really cool getting to meet her that, you know, that left me with a lot of energy.

[00:29:59] Cory: Uh, I [00:30:00] went straight from there to Michigan and did a book event in Michigan. Um, and four people showed up to that.

[00:30:08] Jeff: Book events, huh? Am.

[00:30:09] Cory: but one of them was someone who used to read my blog back in the day

[00:30:14] Christina: That’s so

[00:30:15] Cory: that like, made me so happy that it didn’t, like it didn’t matter at all. Like, and, and the audience for all that.

[00:30:23] Cory: It was small. It was, it was like great audience. Everybody had, everybody had questions like it ruled. Um, and so, so I’ve had, I’ve had experiences like that. I’ve also had at least one book event where the room just felt dead, just absolutely dead. And I sort of felt like I, I sort of felt like a presenter in a pyramid scheme where I was like, every, you had to buy, you had to buy my book ’cause you’re here, but it doesn’t matter whether you read it, you just have to buy it.

[00:30:50] Cory: Uh, and that that left me feeling really low, left me feeling like a fraud and a scoundrel. You know, so like, it’s, it’s really, really both ends of the [00:31:00] spectrum, especially because, you know, once you crest the hill, once I crest the hill, I just see the next hill. I don’t really like, feel as if I’ve achieved something anymore because I’ve already, because I’ve already achieved

[00:31:13] Christina: You’ve already done it. So, so, so, so, so then you’re like, well, what’s the next thing? Right? Like, like, well, well, what’s the next goal?

[00:31:18] Cory: yeah. Which is make makes it easy to feel like I’m right back where I started,

[00:31:21] Christina: right. I was gonna say like, I hope you can take some time to like internalize and like be so proud of like, what you’ve accomplished and then like that you did like, set like that arbitrary goal, you know, publish your first novel by 35 and you did it right.

[00:31:31] Christina: And you’re like, you know, you have like a big publisher and you’re like, your book is out there and being read and like, you know, people are are, you know, somebody who like read your blog, like showed, you know what I mean? Like, I hope that, like that, that, I hope you can internalize and, and like feel like pride in that.

[00:31:45] Christina: ’cause I think that’s really incredible.

[00:31:48] Cory: Well, thank you. Yeah. In, in my best moments. I do.

[00:31:53] Brett: Yeah, I think we understand.

[00:31:55] Christina: Um, so, so, so for our listeners, do you wanna give us a little bit of an overview, just kinda like the, the high [00:32:00] level of, of what your book is about and um.

[00:32:03] Brett: Yeah. Let’s move into, let’s move into the two true and lie discussion.

[00:32:07] Cory: Yeah, let’s talk about it. So Two Truths and a Lie is a cyberpunk noir story set in a nearish future Los Angeles that is partially underwater, where information has replaced money. People buy, sell, and trade memories, and it focuses on this nasty old man, this war veteran named or. Who kind of gets dragged into the middle of a high profile murder investigation when it turns out it has something to do with an old lover of his, and it kind of goes from there.

[00:32:48] Cory: That’s the, that’s the book. How’s that? I’ve practiced that a

[00:32:50] Christina: No, no, I, I was

[00:32:52] Jeff: A.

[00:32:52] Christina: I was gonna say, you did a great job. So, so I, I have not read the whole thing. Brett has read it twice. I have not read the whole thing, but, um, what, [00:33:00] what I have read it, it was interesting. Um, and, and the pitch is, is, is perfect. It was so interesting to me. Um, and even the way that you described, um, it just now, but like, from what I read, like it makes sense that you’ve worked on, on games because a lot of, and, and I, I mean this in a very positive way.

[00:33:15] Christina: I wanna be clear. Like, when I read this, I was thinking, I was like, oh, you know what? I could see a great game being based on this sort of thing. Um, and, and, and to me that’s like actually like, uh, that, that, that’s me giving a compliment because that’s, I love adaptations. I love to things, see things like that.

[00:33:31] Christina: But I, in my head, I was kind of envisioning, I was like, this could be like a really interesting narrative game in some regards. And, um, I, I am curious like.

Inspiration and World-Building

[00:33:40] Christina: What your inspiration was in terms of how you were going about kind of creating the world that this takes place in. ’cause it is new, near future and, and you know, what your process was in terms of coming up with like, what’s the, the technology that they’re using and, and what’s kind of what, what are the differences and, and the similarities between what we have and, and, um, [00:34:00] how, how, how did, uh, what was your process for, for coming up with that stuff?

[00:34:04] Cory: well, I, I definitely take it as a compliment that it would, it would make a good game. I like games, obviously. I play a lot of games and I think of the, the writing of a book, at least as, as the playing of a game,

[00:34:20] Jeff: Mm.

[00:34:20] Cory: to some degree. I had a, I had a, an instructor who I really, uh, admired in graduate school who.

[00:34:27] Cory: Said basically that in order to write to the end of a book, you have to construct a sort of game for yourself. You have to have some rules that allow you to play out and generate the novel because writing an entire book is like an impossible task to conceptualize, right? It’s like so many words and so many events and, and so much stuff.

[00:34:52] Cory: It’s very hard to like hold in your head at once. But hu I think human beings in general, certainly [00:35:00] me in particular, are able to hold very complex game structures in their heads and understand all of the sort of weights and balances, uh, and, and systems involved in a game. And so I kind of play these little games with myself, um, or sometimes rope other people into playing these games with me.

[00:35:21] Cory: So the original idea for the story came when I was in grad school and somebody brought in, I went, I went to art school. This is important for understanding this story. Uh, ’cause in one of my classes, one of the other students brought in, uh, a book that she had sewed out of $1 bills. And she was like, this shows how information has become our new currency. Uh,

[00:35:51] Brett: totally an art school

[00:35:52] Cory: yeah, it’s a very

[00:35:52] Christina: totally is

[00:35:53] Cory: project. Uh, and I, and I was like, oh, but what if actually though? Like, [00:36:00] what if for real? And so I started spinning out like, well, what would it actually take? And, and I’ve, I’ve always really liked noir A mystery Seemed like a really natural place to explore that kind of thing, right?

[00:36:13] Cory: Because information is already so important in a mystery. And so I started trying to build this out and it was really difficult. To, to make it all line up because it’s a, it is, it is very different from how our world currently works in some ways. In some ways there’s a lot of overlap. But one of the things that I would do is I would talk to people about it, and I would tell them, like, I’ve got this worked out.

[00:36:38] Cory: Here’s what I, here, here’s how it works. And they would very understandably ask me a lot of questions about it. That, and, and I would not know the answers to those questions, but I would act like I knew the answers to those questions and I would answer them. And by doing that enough times, I eventually sort of built out an understanding of how this world was supposed to work.[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Cory: And I built out the story by asking myself questions like that. Um,

[00:37:04] Jeff: Is that what you mean when you say making it all line up? Just making sure it essentially makes sense and everything follows a thread. Every little piece

[00:37:12] Cory: Yeah, I, I try to be very meticulous about that. I like, I. I don’t think that that’s a requirement to write a story. I don’t think everybody has to be really meticulous about it, but I,

[00:37:24] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:24] Cory: I cannot be, I, I cannot allow myself to leave a, leave a loose thread or a plot hole. That kind of stuff really bothers me.

[00:37:33] Cory: So, so, yeah, so like a lot of it was stitching up holes and patching things and bringing things together, which is tough because as, as you start, as I would start to revise something, if I changed one thing, then it, you know, changes something overweight in a different part of the fabric that I’ve gotta, like, bring into line, everything gets destabilized and then it’s gotta, gotta remake it all over again.

[00:37:55] Jeff: Um, a friend of mine is, he is a author, a Raphael Johnson. He wrote a [00:38:00] great book called The Through, which I really recommend, but he had a theater background and, and so I’m, I’m obsessed with process and I could ask you questions about process all day. And like I said earlier, I’m gonna just ask a couple only, but he had this really great, I use this all the time in my own work.

[00:38:14] Jeff: He had this, he has this great way of going over hi. His writing. When he is done, it’s like a theater person. He goes, I’m gonna do a lighting pass now I’m gonna do a wardrobe pass. I’m gonna do a sound pass. Right? Like, I’m gonna do all these passes, uh, settings pass. Um, so he is going through the book over and over with just that bit.

[00:38:32] Jeff: Like it little different from making it line up, but just making sure that he’s created the world that is as kind of full as it is in his brain, but has gotten it to the page. You, you’re describing something that like fits into a category. Uh, with that for me,

[00:38:44] Cory: Ian Fleming would do the same thing, uh, from what I understand, would write, write through the book, and just get the plot beats in place. And then the second pass was like, everyone’s like, what kind of watches is everyone’s wearing?

[00:38:55] Cory: And like

[00:38:56] Jeff: Very important. The Bond

[00:38:57] Cory: and all of that, like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:39:00] Uh, there’s a, there’s a really great quote that I like from Walter Mosley, who’s a noir writer that I really admire. He wrote, uh, devil in a Blue Dress, I think is,

[00:39:10] Christina: Great book or screenplay rather. Yeah.

[00:39:13] Cory: and, uh, and, and he was answering the question, how do you know when a book is done?

[00:39:19] Cory: How do you know when you’re, you’re done drafting? And he said, what I would do is I would write a draft and I would read it, I’d see what was wrong with it, and go back and fix it. And then I’d read it and I’d see what was wrong with it. And I’d go back and fix it. And then I’d read it again and I’d see what was wrong with it.

[00:39:41] Cory: I’d have no idea how to fix it. And that’s how I knew I was done. And I was like that, that I, I hold onto a lot because I can be such a perfectionist about things. And at a certain point, I just have to be like, the problems that remain are beyond my ability to solve.[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Jeff: yeah, yeah. But you also have to, I mean, the resilience that always amazes me about people who go through and finish a novel is like, you just described this cycle, but I always wonder, okay, when you hit that point where you’re like, eh, there’s something wrong with it. That can be a, like an existential crisis, right?

[00:40:16] Jeff: Like, but then somehow you lift yourself up and go, I’m doing another pass. It’s like, almost like it’s very masochistic.

[00:40:23] Cory: yeah, yeah. It’s, you have to believe that there’s something at the end of that, right? Like you have to, and this, this happens in making games too. Making games is a similarly torturous process. It can be,

[00:40:37] Jeff: With the extra layer of the studio.

[00:40:40] Cory: yeah. Well, even if you’re making a game by yourself, like, uh, games are so complex and every game is different from every other game.

[00:40:47] Cory: Even more so than every novel is different from, from any other novel. You’re very much building the plane as you’re flying the plane. But the, uh, the thing that helps with both of them, with any kind of creative project for me is to have [00:41:00] some spark somewhere of what this thing is about. Like William Gibson, I think once, once said that he would write the first line of his book and he would never change the first line after he had written the

[00:41:13] Jeff: Oh

[00:41:13] Cory: I can’t do that. Um, I, I have definitely changed the first line of all, everything that I’ve ever written, but there has to be something that doesn’t change. There has to be something that gives the thing its identity that to hold onto so that no matter how much it changes, no matter how many drafts there are, there’s a way to know that I’m making progress.

[00:41:39] Jeff: yeah.

[00:41:39] Brett: S speaking of Gibson, um, okay, so I read a lot of cyberpunk, um, and I read a lot of Gibson. And when I first started, uh, to truth and a lie, I immediately thought this is Gibson esque. And then I had to ask myself what that meant because. [00:42:00] These days, like current Gibson, I don’t even consider Gibson esque. Uh, when I say Gibson esque, I mean Mona Lisa overdrive.

[00:42:10] Brett: I mean, like early days, I mean like way back to like 400 boys Bruce Sterling era stuff. Um, like that to me is like the, the, or what used to be called hard, hard sf like hard sci-fi. Um, and that like when I started two Truths and a lie, I was immediately imbued with this sense of the old school cyberpunk feel.

[00:42:36] Brett: But it’s more developed, like once you get into it, it’s richer than old, old cyberpunk used to be. So I felt like you, you straddled the line between what I would consider quote unquote Gibson esque, um, and like a, a more heartfelt. Novel. So I guess the question would be like, how do you [00:43:00] see this falling into kind of the pantheon of cyberpunk literature?

[00:43:05] Cory: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a good question and I definitely take it as a compliment to, to have it be described as Gibson esque, like definitely I have been inspired by the velocity. Gibson’s early writing, the way that his prose moves. One of those visceral experiences when I, that I was describing earlier when I was talking about how books made me feel was Mona Lisa Overdrive.

[00:43:29] Cory: There’s a passage in it. I can’t even remember what the passage was. I just remember, I remember where I was sitting when I was reading it, and I remember like closing the book for a moment and just going like, because it just like had such energy. Um, but I think, you know, that for me was a starting point in terms of one of my influences and how my, my, my, my prose writing developed over time.

[00:43:55] Cory: But it was very much a starting point for me because there are also things that I struggle [00:44:00] with, with Gibson’s early writing. Um, and I, I, I remain a huge fan of Gibson. I love, I I love some of his more recent work too. Like the peripheral I

[00:44:07] Cory: find Absolutely.

[00:44:09] Cory: Um, some of, some like neuro answer the first time that I picked it up.

[00:44:14] Cory: I, I got like a couple chapters in and I put it back down because there is this paragraph where like, it’s like half in reality and half in a hologram, and you can’t really tell what’s going on because the, the pros is so dense. And I, I was like, I just can’t, I just can’t parse this. This is stressing me out a little bit.

[00:44:33] Cory: And I, and I put it down, I came back to it, I think after I read Snow Crash. Um,

[00:44:38] Brett: Yeah. Steven Stevenson’s a nice break from Gibson.

[00:44:41] Cory: And I, I blew through. I love Stevenson too. Um, and I, and I, yeah, and I, and then I, and then I blew through Neuro Me and I kind of got it, uh, a little bit more. But yeah, I wanted, I wanted to preserve the vividness and the momentum of the language, um, and create more clarity, but I [00:45:00] also wanted to develop my own aesthetic.

[00:45:03] Cory: You know, Gibson’s, Gibson’s writing is very much like that. Early writing comes out of like, right, isn’t it like eighties Toronto Street culture?

[00:45:12] Brett: Yeah,

[00:45:13] Cory: Um, and I don’t have any experience with eighties Toronto Street culture. So it very much comes out of like my aesthetic more and the people that I grew up with and the, and, and what grime meant to me growing up, because there’s a lot of grime in the book for sure.

[00:45:28] Cory: Um, and then, but like, but, but again, like having that core of something to know what you’re working on, part of the core of it for me is what I think of as the core of cyberpunk. It’s not the chrome or the laser whips or whatever. It’s, uh, it’s the stories of people who can’t afford space travel,

[00:45:49] Jeff: Oh, Right on. Right on.

[00:45:51] Cory: That’s, I, I, that’s, that’s not original to me. I think Bruce Sterling wrote that in the introduction to Burning Chrome, but I, but it stuck with me, [00:46:00] um, because it’s like, it, this is the, what, what it is about is it’s, it’s working class science fiction, you know, like it’s, and, and, and that’s what I’ve tried to hold onto is like, it doesn’t have the same technology.

[00:46:13] Cory: You know, one thing that’s really changed, I think in the way that we think about, um, cyberpunk is the concept of cyberspace.

The Evolution of Cyberspace

[00:46:20] Cory: Uh, because cyberspace is no longer a place the way that it was when, when, when Gibson was first writing, like the internet used to be a place that you went.

[00:46:30] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:46:31] Cory: and now the internet is just sort of this, this like sludgy mist that surrounds us at all times.

[00:46:40] Cory: This sort of ever present fog, uh, that both reveals and obscures. And, uh, and so having it, having it be more of a layer, more of an ever present thing that really changes the whole like way that a, that a world works. And I think a lot of other things follow from that. And I think that’s, that’s part of, [00:47:00] part of what is going on in two truths and lies is that, you know, that, that that technical world has so merged with the physical world that people are just, you know, buying and selling and giving up and trading their memories.

[00:47:10] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] Brett: la of like sidewalks and green spaces with a woman who was alive then, but didn’t have the technology to capture that memory at the time. And that memory is the [00:48:00] most valuable thing he can offer her, whereas it might not be worth anything to the next guy. But like he has, he has, and, and in the book or of, is dirt poor?

[00:48:14] Brett: I mean, all things considered, uh, he’s, he’s barely surviving. Uh, he’s living at the bottom of society. Um, but he has a couple of memories that in the right context are super valuable.

Economics of Memory

[00:48:29] Brett: So how do you see, how do you see the economic impact of, of having, of memory versus what we consider currency right now?

[00:48:42] Cory: Well, it, it, it, it definitely works differently than we’re used to. Money. Working money is traditionally fungible. Every dollar is the same as every other dollar. But also, you know, money is a really [00:49:00] elaborate fiction. Money. The, the, the, the idea in theory about money is that like I could go and turn it into gold if I really wanted to.

[00:49:10] Cory: That hasn’t been true in a very, very

[00:49:12] Cory: long time. Right now, now it’s just sort of like, well, why would you ever, you just trade the money? Um, but kind of the way that the information functions in the book is as, as a more directly backed currency, right? Each piece of currency can be traded. They can just be traded by file size if that’s what people wanna do.

[00:49:31] Cory: A lot of the, a lot of the, the exchange takes place in the form of demographics ’cause they are pretty fungible. It’s just like a bunch of people’s software or, uh, soft drink preferences or whatever. And you, you, you trade those back and forth basically the way that you would trade fiat currency. Um, but all, all data has an end point where it’s uniquely val valuable.

[00:49:53] Cory: Uh, which means that like there is not a separate vault. That all of the [00:50:00] money corresponds to the information is kind of its own vault. It carries its own vault with it, it carries its own value. Um, because, you know, eventually this piece of information is going to be genuinely useful to somebody, uh, which enables more of a, kind of an, a narco synthesist, uh, government a little bit going on in, in this, in this version of Los Angeles, where it doesn’t, there, there doesn’t need to be a central authority that says this information is valuable because the information is all valuable to somebody.

[00:50:35] Brett: Sure. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that

[00:50:38] Jeff: What, did you start with this book? Did you start with that? Did you start with that as this sort of rough idea, this kind of economy of memory? Or did you Yeah. Where did it start?

[00:50:47] Cory: Um, the, yeah, the idea was I wanted information to be currency in some way. That was the kernel of the idea. And as, as, as I had to [00:51:00] actually make plot decisions, it gradually became clearer and clearer what that meant. Um, you know, originally it was a little bit more depersonalized, if I’m remembering correctly.

[00:51:11] Cory: It was a little bit more like you had piles of data, but you, they weren’t necessarily your memories. And then over time, I started to realize like, part of the reason that we don’t pay money for most information now is because. It’s infinitely duplicatable. Uh, and so to have information function as currency, it has to, it has to be handled better than NFTs were handled where you could just right click and, and save the jpeg.

[00:51:43] Cory: Like it has to actually be like a, like almost an object that only one person can possess. Uh, and so that’s kind of where the idea of, uh, taking and giving and removing memories came in.

[00:51:57] Jeff: Yeah. Because when you pay someone a [00:52:00] memory in this world, you lose that memory

[00:52:03] Cory: Right?

[00:52:04] Brett: and it, it is not, it’s not duplicatable. Is that, I can’t remember. In, in the world of the book, is that a choice? Like, can memories be duplicated?

[00:52:18] Cory: Uh, memories cannot be duplicated if they are, if they are minted to trade

[00:52:26] Brett: Okay, so they are, they are, they are. The idea of NFTs, not the execution Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagine. Imagine if,

[00:52:35] Brett: Right, In this economy, what would money laundering

[00:52:39] Cory: oh, that’s, you’d have to read the book to find

[00:52:41] Jeff: Oh, good. Good.

Queer Love Story in Fiction

[00:52:44] Brett: So another, another topic is the kind of queer love story at the center of this novel, and I read a lot of queer fiction and the stuff I appreciate about the best of queer [00:53:00] fiction is that it doesn’t have to recognize that it’s queer. Um, it just sees like this is, this is a man who loves another man.

[00:53:09] Brett: This is, this is a man who can love either gender, all genders equally. Like it doesn’t have to be brought out as a, as a you. You don’t have to draw attention to it. It just is, um, this character isn’t gay. This character is just a character. Um, and ORs love interest in this story is another man. But it becomes clear in the reading that Orv is not impervious to the wiles of the, the feminine kind.

[00:53:42] Brett: Um, he is, as far in my reading of it, he’s pansexual if bisexual, if not pansexual. Um, and I appreciate that. That’s never, uh, elucidated like that never needs to even be [00:54:00] stated. It just is. Um, and from our, our pre-show conversation, my interpretation, and I don’t need you to, to confirm or deny this, my interpretation is that you’re a straight man writing queer fiction.

[00:54:17] Brett: Um, and you’re, you’re welcome to, you’re welcome to debate me or to correct me on that. But, um, I think it was a really well done queer love story.

[00:54:30] Cory: Uh, well, I, not that I, not that I have to answer your question, but the way I would answer your, I, I, I’m, I’m still going to, uh. I am, I, I am a, I am a cis man, married to a cis woman who has loved men. That, that, that is how I would, how I would describe myself. Um, and or is or, or does not exactly one-to-one map to my own predilections, [00:55:00] but, or Yeah.

[00:55:00] Cory: ’cause Aura is definitely a disaster. Pansexual. He, uh,

[00:55:05] Brett: I like that.

[00:55:07] Cory: uh,

[00:55:07] Jeff: Did you create that?

[00:55:09] Cory: no,

[00:55:09] Jeff: Okay. This is not a term I’ve heard, and it’s an

[00:55:11] Jeff: amazing I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard disaster bisexual. I’ve never, I, I don’t know that I’ve heard, but

[00:55:17] Christina: was gonna say, I’ve, I’ve heard disaster buy Disaster pan though. I like, I I I

[00:55:20] Cory: yeah. I feel like, I feel like it’s, I don’t, I don’t feel like that’s much of an innovation to say that,

[00:55:25] Christina: but, but, but I like the riff anyway. I’m just, I’m just saying. I’m just, it’s, it’s a good riff.

[00:55:29] Cory: Um, but yeah, so he, yeah, he, he loves who he loves and I think that, uh.

[00:55:36] Cory: I kind of, I think I kind of took some inspiration from other noir for that. There’s a, there’s a Raymond Chandler book that I really love called, uh, farewell My Lovely. And you think of these private detectives as like, oh, they’re, they’re men’s men and they’re making out with all the women, and they’re, you know, and then, and then, and then they punch all the guys.

[00:55:57] Cory: Uh, and [00:56:00] you know, Philip Marlow, for the most part is like that. He’s really kind of scornful and horny with all the women in the story at the same time. But there’s this beautiful moment where he like meets this dude on the docks, this, this, this gorgeous man with violet eyes. And, and he, he like gets this guy’s help to get him onto a boat.

[00:56:22] Cory: And they spend a long time in the dark on this boat.

[00:56:25] Jeff: Hmm.

[00:56:25] Cory: He and he talks to the guy about how scared he is about this boat that he’s going on to, and the guy is like comforting him and trying to take care of him. And he, you know, he describes this guy, he keeps talking about his eyes and he keeps describing how he is the nicest man that he’s ever met.

[00:56:41] Cory: And like, you know, and they touch and all of it. Like, and I don’t know, I, I really don’t know how intentional it’s, but it felt like it had to be intentional. You know what I mean? Um, and so there’s this weird, there’s this, not, not weird, but like very interesting interplay of these private [00:57:00] detectives who are very, very sort of isolated by their profession, isolated by some of the things that they’ve seen and experienced, uh, and don’t necessarily know how to describe themselves or how to relate to other people, how to be close to other people.

[00:57:17] Cory: Sometimes find themselves being closest to people, uh, who. I don’t know who, who, who share something with them that they’re not even sure how to describe in themselves. Uh, and so I wanted ora to be, uh, complicated and fluid and, and tender more openly than, than like a 1950s more hero could be.

[00:57:46] Brett: Yeah, I think you did a great job. Like it reads, it reads like great queer fiction to me. And I know in your, in your, uh, what do you call it, a soundbite synopsis that you [00:58:00] gave like queer didn’t come up. Um, and, and I feel like that’s not it. It, it’s not a focus of the novel, but I think it could sell that way.

[00:58:10] Cory: Yeah. I mean, it has, you know, it has, it is, it is categorized, it’s been described that way. I feel a little bit uncomfortable describing it that way myself, because I am a cis man married to a cis woman, and so I don’t feel like, I feel like I don’t want to use that as a marketing crutch, even though it’s an element of the book.

[00:58:29] Brett: I appreciate that. I

[00:58:30] Cory: a, like, how, how do you do fellow kids kind of thing. But I just, I wanted to try and be, I wanted to give as accurate and genuine a depiction of, of love as I could.

[00:58:41] Jeff: How do you do fellow disaster? Pansexuals.

[00:58:43] Cory: Right.

[00:58:47] Brett: Oh, that’s great. That’s awesome.

Writing Dialogue Trees for Video Games

[00:58:49] Jeff: Hey, wait, now I know, I know we’re running out the clock here, but, uh, I, I wanna ask you about, um, writing dialogue trees for video games. And, and [00:59:00] if you can, uh, describe what one is, it’s a little intuitive maybe to people, but describe what one is and describe about, uh, describe the challenges of that or the experience of that as opposed to writing dialogue in a novel

[00:59:12] Cory: Oh God. quicker than that.

[00:59:15] Cory: yeah, writing, writing dialogue trees is hard, uh, because you’re anticipating a bunch of different possible routes in the conversation, and it’s, it’s difficult to do that without diluting the effect of the conversation. One of the nice things about writing a linear conversation is you can pick the most dramatic, uh, responses to every, every moment in the conversation.

[00:59:39] Cory: And when you’re writing a branching dialogue, if you want it to have the same impact, you need to have like three to five of the most, the most dramatic possible responses all prepared. And so it’s a lot of, it’s a lot of like holding a bunch of different possible versions of the conversation in your head at the same time.

[00:59:56] Cory: Like, can players end up here from different directions [01:00:00] and will they have different information? And do I need to keep this somewhat vague so that it can work in both of the situations? You know, what are the gather points that I can use so that this doesn’t just become like an exponential mess that is like a million words for one, one-off conversation.

[01:00:14] Cory: Uh, the tools are also important and usually kind of janky. They’re finally making some better branching dialogue tools. Uh, some I like more than

[01:00:25] Jeff: What? What have you used and liked? I’ve tested them just as a creative experiment.

[01:00:31] Cory: My favorite is that I’ve used is ankle. I haven’t gotten to use it much for work, but that’s something to use if you like.

[01:00:40] Cory: Scripting generally, it’s like a scripting language, so, so you’re writing it out, um, in a sort of text editor. Other people, I think, prefer a more visual scripting language like Twine. Um, and there are a lot of visual scripting languages. The one that I use for work now, I think I can say [01:01:00] is, uh, OEI, it’s obsidian internal Dialogue Engine.

[01:01:03] Cory: I don’t know if you have

[01:01:04] Jeff: Oh, huh.

[01:01:05] Cory: but, um, but it, uh, it, it is, it is like a node based system. You connect one node to another and you make a, make a web and that’s fine. Like, it’s, it’s decent for, for visualizing the conversation. Um, I think I prefer just because of my own predilections, I guess.

[01:01:22] Cory: ’cause I like writing prose. I prefer to have it just written out as text.

[01:01:26] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One more. Uh, uh, uh, when, when you do level design, which you, you did with red fall, um, I was asking, I, I had my, my son look through all of this, he gave me an interesting history of red fall that we probably don’t have to go

[01:01:39] Cory: Yeah, we don’t have to go into

[01:01:40] Jeff: painful. I don’t wanna, I, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna cause pain.

[01:01:45] Jeff: Um, but what is level design and, and how, you know, as opposed to narrative design for people that aren’t like immersed in this.

[01:01:52] Cory: Uh, well, arcane was a, uh, a really exceptional studio, rest in peace, [01:02:00] um, because it was a very much like level design driven studio. The way that I would describe it at the time was like, there are a lot of people at a game studio whose job is to make pizza toppings, uh, make like really delicious pizza toppings, uh, or to make the, make the crust of the pizza, to make the sauce of pizza, to make the cheese and everything.

[01:02:26] Cory: I, as a level designer would assemble the pizza. Uh, I wouldn’t even put it in the oven. I’d just assemble the pizza. Uh. QA cooks the pizza and serves the pizza. But, um, yeah, level designer takes all of the beautiful things that everyone made and arranges them into hopefully pleasing pattern.

[01:02:46] Jeff: That is a lovely way to describe it, huh? Thank you for that.

[01:02:50] Cory: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Brett: Can we, before Jeff has to go in 10 minutes, um, can we talk quickly about tools, uh, that you [01:03:00] used, uh, for the actual

[01:03:02] Jeff: Yes. And I have, I have more time now, so I,

[01:03:04] Cory: Oh,

[01:03:04] Brett: Oh, okay.

Tools for Writing and Productivity

[01:03:06] Brett: So yeah, what, what platforms do you write on? What tools do you use? How do what, what all goes into bringing your novels together?

[01:03:16] Cory: I, uh, discovered partway through the process of writing two truths and a lie, a tool that I really like. I use Scrivener.

[01:03:26] Brett: Yes. I was really hoping you were gonna

[01:03:29] Jeff: so

[01:03:29] Christina: I was too. I was too,

[01:03:32] Cory: I do have some problems with Scrivener. Um, the fact, the fact that like, you can’t select text from like multiple sections at once. I, I find irritating. Like little, little, little irritating

[01:03:44] Christina: The, the, the, the sync is bullshit. Can we just, can we all admit that, that, that their syncing stuff

[01:03:49] Jeff: I haven’t used it in a while. It was rough in the past.

[01:03:52] Cory: Oh yeah. I never, I

[01:03:53] Christina: Don’t do it. Is is basically what they even tell you. They’re like, yeah, Google Drive, it’ll probably break. Dropbox is better. Don’t use [01:04:00] Box under any circumstances.

[01:04:02] Christina: iCloud is not a thing, but like if you’re ever wanting, at least for me, if I ever wanna write something like on my iPad, and then I wanna access the same thing, I’m like, are you fucking serious? Anyway, that’s my only gripe with Scrivener,

[01:04:12] Cory: yeah, I, I, I just use it on one computer and straight up, but I will look, I could, I could, I could talk shit about all the little details, but I know all the little shitty details because I use it so much

[01:04:22] Christina: Right, exactly.

[01:04:23] Cory: it has a lot of functionality that I, that I can’t get anywhere else.

[01:04:27] Cory: Being able to rearrange, being able to rearrange chapters and sections. Um, being able to, the, the, the feature that I use, maybe the most other than that is, uh, taking snapshots of, uh, of text, uh, before I rip out a bunch of it and change it. And I, I almost never actually use the snapshots that I

[01:04:48] Jeff: But knowing it’s there,

[01:04:49] Cory: Exactly. It allows me to do the messy work and

[01:04:52] Cory: not I am like that

[01:04:53] Brett: with Git for sure.

[01:04:54] Cory: that I, yeah. That I’m gonna be like, I’m gonna be like with my guts all the way up inside the, or my [01:05:00] hands, all the way up inside the guts of the cow and then be like, oh no, oh, I shouldn’t have done this. Now,

[01:05:06] Jeff: all been there, Corey. We’ve all been there with the cow. I

[01:05:09] Cory: yeah.

[01:05:09] Cory: With the cow, we’ve all, yeah, whos amongst us. Uh, but, and then, and then the third feature that I, that I, that I love about it, that really got me through. I have a, I have another manuscript that I’m, that I’m polishing up right now. Um, and I don’t have a lot of time to write because I have my day job. So in order to get through the first draft of this newer manuscript, I was like, okay, I am gonna write 500 words a day, which is gonna give, which, which if I do that five days a week and in no time, I’m gonna have 70,000 words, which is what I’m trying to hit.

[01:05:46] Cory: Um, yeah, I, I, I feel like that was like three or four months or something of, of writing. I don’t know. You can, you can do the math. I’m done doing the math. But, uh, but I basically, I just put all of those there. There’s like a [01:06:00] writing target tool in Scrivener, and I put all of those numbers into the writing target tool and it would just be a little window every time, every time I logged on and I didn’t have to think about it, I could see a little progress bar fill up and it felt really good.

[01:06:12] Cory: And it got me through, uh, to the end of the first draft, which is the, the first major hurdle of, uh,

[01:06:20] Jeff: Okay. Here’s a question. Uh, I, I’m trying to picture, I’m imagining your Scrivener uh, uh, set up right now. And so you’ve got, you’ve got your book, you’ve got it up in the, you know, you’re in the left hand column. You, you start at the top, you’re working your way down. You see the chapters, but then there’s like the dumping ground.

[01:06:35] Jeff: Um, where you can have all kinds of shit. What kind of, like, did you have reference material in there? Is that where some of the, you know, older versions lived?

[01:06:43] Cory: Um, well, the oldest versions of two treats in the lie were just written in, uh, open office, uh, which has its own problems, especially with loading large files. Uh, as much as I, as much as I love it,

[01:06:57] Christina: Corey, are, are, are, are I was gonna say are, are, [01:07:00] are, are, are you a Linux on the desktop user

[01:07:01] Jeff: I held back.

[01:07:02] Cory: No, I, no, I’m, I’m not. I have, I have, I have, I have, unfortunately, I have windows on all my machines. Uh, I try and use Microsoft products as little as possible, but I’m not quite well versed in computers enough to go without, entirely.

[01:07:17] Jeff: He says open office. Every one of our brains goes, Hmm. Linux

[01:07:20] Christina: Hmm. I was gonna Exactly

[01:07:22] Cory: just, it’s just, it, it’s, it’s free. This is the

[01:07:26] Christina: Fair enough. Fair enough.

[01:07:27] Cory: Um, but yeah, I was doing it all in open office. It, it, it was, it was a little bit, it was a little bit rough. So the, the old versions are all like ODT files and then, and then, yeah, like pieces that I cut out would go in that bottom section.

[01:07:44] Cory: But the other thing that would go in that bottom section is sometimes I just get stuck and I still need to do my writing for the day. And so I’ll just like open up a document in that note section and I’ll just like, freak out. I’ll just be like, oh, what am I [01:08:00] doing? Oh, I don’t know what this problem is.

[01:08:01] Cory: I’m gonna try and like, let’s try and, you know, lay out at least the bounds of the problem so that I can start trying to solve it. And like that generally is pretty effective for me.

[01:08:10] Jeff: That’s great. Nice. Um, do you ever use, this is totally random, but have you ever heard, oh, you’re not a Mac user, you’re a Windows user? And so I’ll tell you, there’s this app called Silver, um, which is a, it’s a text-based calculator

[01:08:28] Christina: Yeah, it’s really good.

[01:08:29] Brett: And, and when I’m programming and I just get my, like, stuck on a calculation, I’ll go into Silver and I’ll just write out like what’s frustrating me.

[01:08:42] Brett: And like, by putting it into words and seeing it together, silver can extract from that a calculation Hmm. and. And like, give me the answer. And in the process I’ll figure out the formula I need for the [01:09:00] function to come up with the answer I desire. Um, is it’s magic. It’s

[01:09:06] Jeff: is magic.

[01:09:08] Brett: But I imagine that’s the same as like opening up, uh, a scratch document and Scrivener and writing, writing that you have a problem and writing out the aspects of the problem and what it is you’re trying to solve.

[01:09:23] Brett: And in the process, coming out with potentially an answer for the problem.

[01:09:29] Cory: Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s definitely, that’s definitely a part of the process.

[01:09:34] Jeff: I keep two documents open when I’m working on projects. One is a scratch pad, which is just to dump in whatever you want. And the other one is called distraction dump. So that every idea that comes that I want to go look up or whatever it is I just put there, I know it’s there. I can go like explore that thing that has nothing to do with what I’m doing later.

[01:09:51] Jeff: And uh, and the amazing thing is I never do it.

[01:09:53] Cory: Yeah. gonna say, do you ever, do you

[01:09:55] Jeff: No. But it lets me keep going. It lets me keep going. Right. Like it’s amazing.

[01:09:59] Cory: I, [01:10:00] I will say the other, the other tool that I use where my actual structured note taking is, is I use obsidian

[01:10:06] Jeff: Yeah. I love obsidian.

[01:10:08] Christina: Sitting is the best.

[01:10:09] Cory: I

[01:10:10] Jeff: I finally went full in about two months ago and it stuck this time.

[01:10:14] Cory: I don’t actually use any of the advanced features of it, like I don’t link internally or anything.

[01:10:19] Cory: I just, I just have a bunch of files in there. I use it for work too,

[01:10:23] Christina: I do too. I do too. It, it’s one of the few tools that’s like allowed, like, on our corporate systems, um, which are, are pretty, uh, stringent and, um, and, and I, I can’t access my, my corporate accounts on my personal devices. Um, and so, um, it, that does make it a little bit difficult for work stuff. I have to use a different, a, a special version of Google Drive, um, to, to sync things.

[01:10:45] Christina: But the fact that I can like, use like a familiar tool is really nice, even if I can’t access my, my stuff anywhere else. But that’s okay. ’cause it’s work stuff. But yeah, it’s nice to at least be able to use like a

[01:10:56] Brett: I love that all the tools you’re mentioning [01:11:00] are cross platform. So you’re, you’re, you’re a Windows user talking to a bunch of Mac users and we’ve all used all the apps you’re

[01:11:07] Brett: talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I, I, I, I wanna believe that we’re coming back out the other side of the era of, of like jealously guarded proprietary platforms.

[01:11:21] Christina: Yeah. know if that’s true.

[01:11:22] Christina: I don’t think we are, but I feel like the web has still sort of like, despite everybody trying to kill it is still kind of, you know what I mean? Like

[01:11:32] Cory: more what I mean. I don’t mean that those platforms aren’t gonna continue to exist and exert their influence. I think that there’s just starting to be a growing appreciation again for having control over your own shit.

[01:11:42] Brett: Yeah. Okay.

[01:11:43] Christina: No, I agree with that. I agree with that. And, and I, I feel like, like cross platform or at least like not being as, as, as you said, like jealously, like guarding, you know, for one or the other. Um. It is getting better. Uh, EE even with games, right? With things like the steam deck and, and stuff like that.

[01:11:59] Christina: [01:12:00] Making it at least more accessible to access games on,

[01:12:03] Brett: seam deck? What is

[01:12:05] Jeff: Steam deck.

[01:12:05] Brett: Oh, I think

[01:12:06] Christina: deck. Sorry. Yeah. No, I, that was my

[01:12:08] Brett: gotcha. Okay. Um, speaking of tools,

[01:12:12] Jeff: Nice

[01:12:12] Brett: you guys, would you guys like to do a GrAPPtitude?

[01:12:16] Jeff: Hell yes.

[01:12:18] Brett: Corey you down for a gude? Do

[01:12:20] Jeff: Corey’s like, I’ve been doing gude for 10 minutes.

[01:12:22] Cory: feel like, yeah.

[01:12:24] Brett: Yeah. And, and, and if Scrivener is your Gude, we’re good. Um, I, I’ll, I’ll kick it off my pick for the week, and I cannot remember if I’ve mentioned this before, um, but there’s a tool called Sendi.

[01:12:39] Brett: It is a PHP server based platform that is an alternative to MailChimp

[01:12:45] Christina: Yes.

[01:12:46] Brett: I think, 60 bucks one time fee. You get your own mail list server that uses Amazon’s email service. Uh, so for about a dollar, you can send out [01:13:00] thousands of emails to your list. Uh, it can keep track of your email, your mailing list.

[01:13:07] Brett: Uh, so if you’re a blogger or a content producer that wants to keep a mailing list where you have close contact with your. Fans, patrons, viewers, um, send, makes it like the, doing the same thing on MailChimp. In my experience, like the, the Envy alt mailing list, the Envy Ultra mailing list has, uh, about 13,000 subscribers.

[01:13:37] Brett: And it got to a point where if I wanted to send an email out to all of the people on the list, it would cost me a hundred bucks. And it, it got, like, it got to the point where I just couldn’t afford to do it anymore. Given NV Ultras very extended development period, um, and complete lack of [01:14:00] income. Um, so

[01:14:01] Jeff: unrelated.

[01:14:04] Brett: And now with Cindy, I don’t have to worry about it for a buck. I can email everyone on that list and as I develop my own mailing list for like Brett secher.com, um, which is a significantly smaller mailing list. But even as such, I can for pennies email everybody. So I, anyone who has a mailing list of anything over a hundred people, Cindy is, uh, an amazing tool.

[01:14:37] Jeff: Awesome.

[01:14:38] Christina: Uh, it’s funny, I went to their website, um, ’cause I, it was the tool that I thought there, there are a couple of these like this, but I think this is the one that, um, that gets like the, the best, uh, reviews in terms of user interface. Um, and uh, like Brett, you’re right there, like on their homepage. Like one of

[01:14:52] Brett: Am I really?

[01:14:53] Christina: Yeah. One of your tweets is like right there. Or like as like a, it’s funny because our friend cable, uh, Sasser is, is on there too. And our friend John Gru [01:15:00] were like, a lot of our people, like, I’m looking at their thing, but if I scroll down, I was like, oh, yep. I was like, there you go, Brett Terpstra.

[01:15:06] Christina: Cool.

[01:15:07] Jeff: In the pocket. A big mailing list.

[01:15:09] Brett: And, and it has a good API so you can automate, like I create, when I, when I email my Brett tur.com mailing list, I write, uh, an email in markdown with a couple of YAML headers with like, uh, email subject line and send date. And then I run it through a script and it just sends it out automatically to whatever lists I need.

[01:15:36] Brett: Um, so yeah, that’s it. I’m done.

[01:15:39] Christina: That’s

[01:15:39] Jeff: Awesome. Christina, what do you got?

[01:15:42] Christina: Okay, so I was actually, it was funny because before we started about this, I was hoping that we would get to talk about tools ’cause that’d be like a good gratitude thing. And Scribner was going to be a thing that I chose, but I’m not gonna choose that now. ’cause we already talked about our, our love of Scrivener.

[01:15:55] Christina: So, and, and Scribner’s. Great. Um, uh, and it is available on, on [01:16:00] Mac, windows and, and iOS, maybe Android. I have no idea. I don’t use Android. But, um,

[01:16:04] Cory: Worth the price

[01:16:05] Christina: definitely worth a price. Not very expensive, but like, it’s like 60 bucks or something. And like, I, I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a good app. Um, and, and any of my criticisms about it are because I really like it.

[01:16:16] Christina: Um, I really like, also like, it’s, it’s corkboard like mode. I, I don’t know, just in terms of thinking stuff out, like I think it’s a, it’s a really good tool. But, uh, no, my pick, this is gonna be nerdier, so I don’t, I can’t remember if we’ve talked about this or not, so. I don’t have a problem with the command line.

[01:16:31] Christina: Um, but, um, I was, uh, you know, like there’s a, a cool home brew gooey app called Cork. I dunno if we’ve talked about it. Um, it is, you can compile yourself and build it for Xcode. So Home Brew, um, uh, Cory is a package manager for, um, Mac Os. Um, the, the Windows equivalent is called Wing Get, and it’s actually pretty great.

[01:16:51] Christina: But, um, basically a way to easily install software, um, if you don’t want to have to go to websites or, or other things. [01:17:00] And, um, uh, or, or if you wanna get things that, that might not be installed in a, in a traditional way. Um, but Cork is an app that, um, Are you saying cork? Or? Cork?

[01:17:10] Christina: Cork, CORK.

[01:17:13] Brett: Oh, okay.

[01:17:14] Jeff: Not taking us back.

[01:17:15] Christina: Um, uh, so it, it’s uh, like, like, like the whole thing is that like if, if, if it’s home brew is, you know, having, um, I guess, uh, casks and, and is all about like the brewing, um, idea then like cork is, is I guess, uh, taking that same kind of metaphor, but it, it, it’s, uh, the, the website is Cork mac.app, but basically it’s just a, a really nice gooey, um, app for home brew and I really like it and it wasn’t that expensive, but like I said, it is completely open source.

[01:17:46] Christina: So if you wanna compile it yourself, you can, but I really like it. Yeah,

[01:17:51] Brett: you. You can also in store cork with home brew. So

[01:17:55] Christina: Yeah, you can

[01:17:56] Brett: just brew and sell cork and you’re good.

[01:17:58] Christina: yep, exactly. And if you like [01:18:00] it, then yeah, you, you can, you can pay for it. It’s like 25 euros or something, or pounds, like through their website and

[01:18:06] Jeff: In Seattle, they use Euros.

[01:18:07] Christina: Well, no. Well, well, the, well, the developer is, the developer is, is, is, uh, is, is is British, but like, uh, but no, it’s, it’s, it’s really cool.

[01:18:14] Christina: ’cause you can also, like, you can update packages like from like the menu bar if you don’t wanna have it open. And, um, you can like access basically all the home brew features that you would otherwise have to maybe deal with the command line for. Anyway. That’s my, that’s my pick this week is cork.

[01:18:28] Brett: Very

[01:18:29] Jeff: Awesome, awesome. I’ve been installing Homebrew stuff sometimes through Raycast lately, which is

[01:18:36] Christina: Oh yeah. No, I love, I I love that inter, that inter, the raycast integration is really good too. Yeah.

[01:18:40] Jeff: yeah, in the end, I always prefer just going back to the command line. I don’t know what it is,

[01:18:44] Christina: Yeah. Um, I, I, I will say, while, while you mentioned Raycast real quick, just for the Windows users out there, um, there’s a free, um, open source project that Microsoft actually runs, but they’re really good people called, uh, power Toys. And Power Toys Run is their version of like raycast or [01:19:00] Spotlight or whatever.

[01:19:00] Christina: And I, I know that team really well, and, and they’re fantastic. And so, um, they’re actually even building some stuff in to do some solver like stuff in terms of calculation things, in terms of being able to use natural language. So power Toys is power toys is, I, I, we’ve mentioned that before, but I’d give that another shout out for anybody on Windows.

[01:19:19] Jeff: Nice, nice. Well, I could go and then Cory, if you still have one, you could, it could be a Cory GrAPPtitude sandwich. I.

[01:19:27] Cory: Okay.

[01:19:29] Jeff: Um, so I am just a, like, slight context, uh, but I’ll be brief about it. Um, one, so I work in, in my work, I work with interviews all the time. Um, I do interviews. I, I work with other people’s interviews on specific topics.

[01:19:42] Jeff: I’m a researcher and a kind of program evaluator. So right now I have a hundreds of hours of interviews with, with foster youth. I have, um, many, many hours of interviews with young people who have been in the juvenile justice system. I have interviews I’ve been doing with agronomists, um, and for [01:20:00] years as I’ve worked with interviews, first as a journalist and now doing what I’m doing now, when I could, what I would do is I would pay somebody to transcribe and I’d pay somebody different to read the transcript along with the audio and correct it.

[01:20:12] Jeff: Always someone different. And when, um, when AI came along, um, I’ve been, more than a year now, I’ve been playing, trying to get to what felt like a really, a really like. As predictable, as is realistic, um, workflow to, to be sure that some of the jargon and, and some of the, you know, dialect stuff, anything like that is being caught.

[01:20:36] Jeff: And so that I can, before I’m even reading through a transcript, I can get it to as good a place as I can. And ideally as good a place as it would’ve been with a second person, which was still imperfect, um, you could have maybe done a third and then you would’ve had it perfect. Um, and so I had, my pick is actually Notebook l lm, um, so I’ve been using Claude Chatty, GPT I’ve, [01:21:00] I’ve messed with so much of this, actually was on the phone with Merlin yesterday just learning his workflow because I’m trying to, trying to like get this workflow just right and I just had this kind of breakthrough.

[01:21:09] Jeff: And I, and I, the reason I select Notebook LM is that one thing that. Chat GPT is really, really bad at or good at, depending on how you look at it, is verbatim quotes. If I were to give it a transcript and say, even just say, do you know what a verbatim quote is? Start there, give me an example. Three examples of verbatim quotes.

[01:21:28] Jeff: Okay, if you win that one, then I say, now I want five verbatim quotes on this topic. Whatever. Right? Um, always making shit up. Always, always, always. No matter how much I like banged up against it notebook LM is amazing because it will give me verbatim quotes with a footnote that I can hover over and see exactly the point in the transcript it pulled it from, and so that I can be sure right away ’cause to be clear to anybody who might be in the field and worrying.

[01:21:54] Jeff: I don’t use quotes just because chat GPT gave them to me. I go and I find them and [01:22:00] that’s how I know it’s making them up. Um, and, and Notebook. LM has been great and what I’ve been doing, I. Which I’ve tried elsewhere, but it works better with them is I just feed it all these documents that are in the relevant area, that have all the various jargon, terms, whatever it is, frameworks, all that stuff.

[01:22:16] Jeff: And I’m able to say, Hey, reference this stuff and, and transcribe this and then clean it using that, you know, that those reference materials and, and I still end up using a combination of that and Claude both are just really good, but Notebook, lm, which I had tried early, had set aside, but they’ve now added some features, including just a huge, you know, a very generous limit to how much context documents you can give it just so generous,

[01:22:42] Christina: Yeah, no, I, I, I do know. So, so, so I, because I know my team does not work on notebook L, but it uses the underlying like, uh, Gemini stuff. Um, and so, um, uh, yeah, that, that is an important thing to note. You mentioned about the context, like that is one of the really good things is you can upload like. Like [01:23:00] hundreds and hundreds of pages worth of stuff.

[01:23:02] Christina: Um, and what’s nice about that is that especially if for what you’re doing, like transcripts and whatnot, like you don’t have to, like, it will be able to kind of keep that in. Its in its memory right then and there not having, so you don’t have to do like, separate rag stuff if you’re wanting to get specific things, you can just, you know, uh, one shot all of your, you know, files or, or, or transcripts or whatever and, and, and ask questions about it, which is really

[01:23:25] Jeff: yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. And it’s become part of the stack because look, I have four pinned tabs in my browser all the time. Notebook, lm, Claude Gemini, and ChatGPT PT because at this point in the development of all this stuff, trying to get to where you want to get usually involves kind of chaining some of

[01:23:42] Christina: Fully agree.

[01:23:44] Jeff: Um, so anyway, I, I really have appreciated coming back to Notebook lm and being like, this is now exactly what I need.

[01:23:50] Christina: That’s awesome. That that’s great. And if you have for, uh, further feedback, let me know and I’ll, I’ll get it to the right people. But, um, uh, yeah, so, uh, and, uh, Jim and I has a good, uh, YouTube [01:24:00] support now too, both in the consumer app and in the AI studio thing. So if you give it like a link, it can like, go through the transcript of like what’s, you know, in that link or give you a summary or give you, you know, like timestamps and stuff.

[01:24:12] Christina: Um, and I think it works for private stuff too. I’m not, I’m not sure. So that’s, that’s something to think

[01:24:17] Jeff: here. Here’s the feedback. Let me fucking change the word spacing. The line spacing and the fonts. ’cause the default sucks and you can’t change it at all. That’s my own. You go to Claude and it’s beautiful, right?

[01:24:28] Christina: No, that’s really good feedback. I will, I will, I

[01:24:30] Jeff: very ugly. Corey in Corey, in case you didn’t pick it up from context. Christina’s new job is that Google.

[01:24:37] Cory: Oh, cool. Congrats.

[01:24:40] Christina: Oh, thanks.

[01:24:40] Jeff: Ask her anything and she can answer. She’ll just answer with AI first.

[01:24:44] Christina: I, I, and you ask me anything and I can be like, dunno if I can answer that.

[01:24:49] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:51] Jeff: All right, Corey, take us home all.

[01:24:53] Cory: Well, I, I will, I will say first I, uh, one thing that I would’ve liked to di to discuss a little bit, unfortunately we’re gonna be out of [01:25:00] time, but I would’ve liked to talk about, uh, the, the way that AI shows up in, in two truths and a lie. Also, because I would’ve liked to talk to you guys.

[01:25:07] Cory: ’cause you have a very, like, practical on the ground understanding of ai. Which,

[01:25:12] Brett: Oh, now I really regret we didn’t get to that.

[01:25:15] Cory: oh yeah, no, what it, it’s fine. Just, just have me on again.

[01:25:19] Christina: yeah. We’ll have you on again actually, genuinely we’d love to have you on.

[01:25:22] Brett: would you,

[01:25:22] Cory: yeah. Yeah, I’d come back. I, like I said, I like talking to people, so Yeah. Bring me back.

[01:25:26] Jeff: We’ll cut you at the end of your end of your promotional

[01:25:28] Brett: right. Let’s do a part two.

[01:25:30] Cory: There it is. No, it’s so cute that you think the promotional period ever

[01:25:34] Jeff: No, that’s true. That’s true. Sorry. That’s my first day.

[01:25:41] Cory: uh, as far I, I’ll I’ll, I I, I was like, I was like frantically looking through apps on my phone, trying to figure out which one gave me a hit of

[01:25:49] Jeff: It’s what we all do at this point.

[01:25:51] Cory: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[01:25:52] Christina: literally that, that you just, you just described how gratitude works on this show.

[01:25:55] Cory: yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. So, uh, the one, the one that finally [01:26:00] stuck out for me is I went, I went to the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco last week, and I’m so tired, but it was very fun.

The Importance of Business Cards

[01:26:08] Cory: But on the way there, I realized that once again, I had forgotten to print out business cards. Ordinarily what I do is I just get nice watercolor paper, cut it into the shape of a business card, and write my business cards by hand. Um,

[01:26:24] Christina: really cool.

[01:26:24] Cory: find, people find it very striking, and

[01:26:26] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say like, that’s one of those things where like, you know, it’s, it’s like the reverse American psycho thing where you’re like, actually, like having, this is the most impressive part. Like this is the biggest flex to have this really pretty handwritten card versus my perfectly lly, you know, print red on, on, on, you know,

[01:26:43] Cory: think my handwriting is nice. So it, it, it, it works. It also, like people say, to give out your business cards like candy, I, I would rather be thoughtful about who I give my business cards to, but this year I didn’t have the paper on hand, or at least I couldn’t find it. And so I reached for another option and I [01:27:00] ended up with this app called Blink with A-Q-B-L-I-N-Q.

[01:27:05] Brett: have seen this.

[01:27:06] Cory: and it makes, it makes a business card. It lets you make a little business card and then you can, and then it gives you a widget too, where you can put a, uh, a Q QR code on some, somewhere on your phone. So I just had like a separate pane on my phone that was just the QR code. And so I would unlock my phone, go to that thing, people could scan it, it would take them to my business card, and I could put whatever information on it.

[01:27:28] Cory: I could make it look nice. And it wasn’t just a link to my LinkedIn, which as much as it’s fine to connect with people on LinkedIn, I, I am trying to create as much of a, like, network of influence outside of commercially top-down controlled platforms as I can. Um, I, you know, I wanna have people’s emails. I wanna, I want, I, I, I already, like, I already get the maximum number of spend calls possible, so I don’t really care about people [01:28:00] having my phone number.

[01:28:01] Cory: Um, so, so like, I wanna, I wanna be in direct contact with people. This allows me to give out direct contact information and get back direct contact information too. ’cause when people scan it, they get a little button to download my contacts, like, and just like, you know, get the, whatever the, the, the contact file is on your Yeah, yeah.

[01:28:21] Cory: You get a V card, uh, instantly and then it gives, and then it prompts you to put your information back in and then it sends me an email. With whatever contact information

[01:28:31] Christina: Oh, that’s awesome. Oh, it also, it also looks like they support, um, um, like Apple Wallet and, and Google Wallet, which that’s really cool. So you can share this as like a, a, a wallet item. That’s a, because I’ve actually, I’ve wanted to do that before for various things. That’s really, really cool.

[01:28:45] Cory: Yeah. It felt, it felt very easy. It, you know, it took me like 10 minutes to set up and it immediately ended my panic about business cards. So like, that’s why when I was scrolling through my apps, I was like, oh, this one actually did me a real solid recently.

[01:28:57] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. Yeah. That’s

[01:28:59] Brett: [01:29:00] I would, I would, uh, tack on, uh, last time I went to a conference, instead of printing business cards, I developed a QR code that I, that downloaded my V card and I made it into my iPhone’s wallpaper.

[01:29:20] Cory: Yeah, yeah,

[01:29:20] Brett: Like the lock, the lock screen wallpaper. So when someone look at you info, I would just unlock my, or I would just hit the uh, wake up button on my phone.

[01:29:32] Brett: They would scan my screen and they would get my V card info. It did not have the added benefit of requesting their info and return. It was a one-way transaction, but it worked out

[01:29:43] Brett: pretty so much of this life.

[01:29:45] Brett: All of all of my QR codes on business cards go to my website slash qr, and then I just have an HT access file that redirects slash qr

[01:29:58] Jeff: It’s the most Brett thing ever.

[01:29:59] Brett: to, [01:30:00] to whatever place I want people to go.

[01:30:03] Brett: So usually it goes to like some old about me page, but I can like. or, or Like, I can redirect that to whatever the current hip, uh, like about page kind of thing is, or LinkedIn or whatever I want. Um, so just like all QR codes, go to that one URL and then I can change where that URL goes.

[01:30:28] Cory: That’s cool.

[01:30:29] Jeff: Nice. That’s a good one. Weird tip.

[01:30:31] Christina: No that. No, no, no. That’s a good one. I feel like you could use like the Blink thing, and now I’m like on Blinks website, they sell like NFC business cards, so you could like print a custom business card that you could put all your stuff in and then when somebody brings their phone up to it, it’ll just transfer that information like wirelessly.

[01:30:48] Christina: That’s actually kind of hot. That’s pretty cool. Well, great

[01:30:53] Jeff: Okay.

[01:30:54] Cory: there’s a free version though.

[01:30:55] Christina: Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was, I was, I

[01:30:57] Cory: be

[01:30:57] Christina: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. It looks like it. It has like a [01:31:00] full free thing. I was just noticing and it was, but it was inexpensive. It’s like $14 to get an NFC business card, and I was like, actually that’s not a bad idea.

[01:31:06] Christina: Like that’s actually kind of a cool, like have one, that way you carry one card instead of like a hundred.

[01:31:11] Cory: Yeah.

[01:31:12] Christina: But All right.

Closing Remarks and Recommendations

[01:31:13] Brett: Well, in closing, I would like to recommend that everyone go out and buy two truths and a lie. And I do not say that lightly. Like seriously. I did not have to read it twice to do this podcast, but I did because it was that good. Um, I would love to see an audio book version of There is an audiobook

[01:31:34] Cory: version Is Yeah. It literally just saying, show it

[01:31:37] Cory: came out at the same time, uh, as, as the book. Yeah.

[01:31:42] Brett: fuck yeah. All right. did you do the reading or did someone else.

[01:31:45] Cory: I, I did not, I’m not quite Grammy enough.

[01:31:48] Cory: I got a, I got a very accomplished voice actor named Tim LBOs, uh, who is, yeah. He did a really good job with the noir voice of it.

[01:31:56] Brett: Oh, I’m gonna go get that too. I want the whole time. [01:32:00] I was like, I would love to hear how a a, an accomplished audiobook reader would, would in tone this line. Um, I also always read books from like, in my mind, I’m always trying to convert it to a screenplay, and I’m like, how would I, how would I demonstrate this?

[01:32:18] Brett: Yeah. Anyway, it gets nuts. Um, but anyway, please everyone check out two truths and a lie. It’s so good. Um, and thanks Corey for being here.

[01:32:31] Brett: I Thanks. Thanks for having me. It was great getting to know all of you.

[01:32:34] Christina: Likewise.

[01:32:35] Brett: are going, we are going to take you up on a part two. We’ll be, we’ll be in touch. All right, everyone, get some sleep.

[01:32:43] Jeff: some sleep.

[01:32:44] Cory: Oh, some sleep.

[01:32:46] Jeff: See ya.

Brett, Christina, and Jeff are joined by beloved guest Merlin Mann for a rollercoaster of emotions and tech tips. From Merlin’s humorous takes on invulnerability and the quirks of managing medications to deep dives into browser tab control and the joys of music discovery, there’s never a dull moment. Brett struggles with an Oracle reorg, Christina reminisces about heart-wrenching childhood books, and Jeff finds solace in the comforting arms of Primus auditions. With discussions on the necessity of vulnerability amidst chaos and practical tech gratitudes, this episode balances heartfelt advice with side-splitting banter. Get ready to laugh, ponder, and maybe shed a tear as you navigate the complexities of life, tech, and emotions with the gang (and Merlin).

Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code OVERTIRED at incogni.com/overtired and get 60% off an annual plan.

Rogue Amoeba has been making the highest quality audio apps for Mac for over 20 years. Save 20% off any purchase with the code OVERTIRED at macaudio.com/overtired!

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BackBeat Media Podcast Network

Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

You’re Not Invulnerable

[00:00:00]

Introduction and Welcoming Merlin

[00:00:00]

[00:00:06] Brett: Oh my God, this is Overtired. Welcome, everybody. Welcome. Um, I am here. I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Jeff Severns Guntzel and Christina Warren and

[00:00:17] Christina: And

[00:00:17] Brett: guest Merlin Mann. One of our favorites. Merlin. How’s it going?

[00:00:21] Merlin: It is going great and you’re one of my favorites. I love doing this show. He

[00:00:25] Jeff: Oh

[00:00:25] Christina: Yay.

[00:00:26] Merlin: Christina. Rarely Danes to show up when I’m here, which feels important to me.

[00:00:30] Brett: Um,

[00:00:31] Merlin: We used to be friends. I remember that.

[00:00:33] Brett: two weeks ago we told everybody that we were gonna have an author that I was very excited about on, uh, last week. And then within about an hour before the show started, Jeff said he had food poisoning and couldn’t do it.

[00:00:50] Merlin: Oh

[00:00:51] Brett: And then right before the show started, Christina said, I have like a, a stomach virus.

[00:00:58] Brett: And [00:01:00] so I show up, I show up and

[00:01:01] Merlin: sit down? Christina? My friend, my friend, my friend, uh, from college, from Alabama would always say, I gotta go sit down.

[00:01:10] Christina: Yeah. I had to sit down for a while. It was, it was, it was. It was. It was. It was real. Not fun. It was

[00:01:14] Merlin: What a great phrase.

[00:01:15] Brett: So I show up and Corey shows up and I’m like, we can do this recording. Just you and me? No, it’s, his name is Corey O’Brien.

[00:01:25] Merlin: Corey O’Brien.

[00:01:26] Brett: He is, he’s an author. He’s a, he’s a, he’s now a cyberpunk author. He is a sci-fi author. But, um, he opted, he said he wanted to do Overtired in its true form with all three of us. So we rescheduled.

[00:01:42] Brett: That’s still up and coming, but this week we have Merlin, which is as good, if not better.

[00:01:51] Merlin: Uhhuh. You, you, are you, you’re John Ming. Me a little bit.

[00:01:55] Jeff: you Motting? Me? You know Cory Drow? Whenever I hear that name, I feel like 25 years [00:02:00] younger.

[00:02:00] Merlin: I know, I do. I do too. Oh, he was, God Bo was such a, had such a big influence on me, and they basically, Corey, Corey and Andy Bayo are the people I personally feel the most gratitude for, for like promoting my website when it came out. If it wasn’t for Corey, I don’t know. He’s an interesting character. That guy.

[00:02:20] Merlin: He’s got, he’s got strong opinions.

[00:02:22] Jeff: He does have strong opinions.

[00:02:24] Christina: He’s still quite in new terms. I mean, I hear every, and, and it’s weird though because, uh, I wonder if he’s annoyed if he’s as annoyed by am I am by how many people use in ification the wrong way. Like it’s just become shorthand for people don’t like something.

[00:02:36] Merlin: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:37] Jeff: he coin? Did he coin? Everything’s computer. Sorry. I really love that.

[00:02:43] Merlin: still say Wfi a lot.

[00:02:45] Jeff: Wafi.

[00:02:45] Christina: good.

[00:02:46] Merlin: Yeah. I still say that a lot. I think that was from his Magic Kingdom book.

[00:02:50] Jeff: Oh yeah. Loved some Disneyland.

[00:02:52] Merlin: Was it? Down, down in Mountain, the Magic Kingdom.

[00:02:54] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:02:54] Christina: That was good.

[00:02:55] Merlin: Well, I’m not an author. I’m the furthest thing from an author, but, um, I’m happy to be here [00:03:00] to, to fill time and I just wanna hear how y’all are doing Well. Did I try, I

[00:03:07] Brett: I, I enjoyed, I enjoyed reading you writing about not writing,

[00:03:11] Christina: Yes,

[00:03:12] Jeff: Hmm.

[00:03:13] Merlin: work.

[00:03:14] Jeff: It’s still writing.

[00:03:16] Merlin: Yeah. I, someday I wanna do a full, a full series of something, either written thing or probably a podcast thing about the things in life. We don’t get to choose top of the list. You don’t get to choose your trauma. If we could all pick our traumas, we’d have cooler traumas, sexual fetishes.

[00:03:30] Merlin: If we get to pick our own sexual

[00:03:31] Jeff: traumas.

[00:03:32] Merlin: we don’t have much cooler traumas and much cooler sexual fetishes. These are not things we get to choose. We, we find ourselves having them in dealing with

[00:03:39] Jeff: trying to think of what a, like, I’m trying to think of a cool trauma. I would want. What, what would you choose?

[00:03:43] Merlin: Oh, geez. I mean, I don’t, I I, would we be stealing valor to even talk about that?

[00:03:48] Christina: Mm. No, I mean, well, um, I think it depends on the trauma

[00:03:53] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

[00:03:55] Jeff: Yeah. I did just open a giant trap door and ask everybody to

[00:03:58] Christina: I know, I, I, I know what valor [00:04:00] I would

[00:04:00] Merlin: should check

[00:04:00] Jeff: without first dropping a dime down to hear how deep it was.

[00:04:04] Merlin: Oh, that I see. The water’s cold and deep.

[00:04:06] Christina: Yeah. I think I know what I would steal.

[00:04:09] Merlin: Um, hey, Christina, if you could pick your trauma and it would be cooler than whatever you’re working with now, what trauma do you suppose you would consider picking?

[00:04:17] Christina: Yeah. So I would like want some sort of like, like a parentage, things like, I don’t know who my real parents are. Like I have some sort of weird adoption kind of backstory or something like that. Like that would be

[00:04:28] Jeff: Because why? What, what, what would it, so what makes you say

[00:04:31] Merlin: If you’re actually raised by, raised by cap barez or something,

[00:04:34] Christina: Yeah. I just think it would be more interesting.

[00:04:35] Christina: Like, I just like, I just think it would be more interesting And you would

[00:04:38] Merlin: parents suck.

[00:04:39] Christina: right, well, yeah, well, and my mine kind of don’t, so like that would kind of be like a like, like, like, right. Exactly. So like, it’s nice, but it’s also kinda like, eh, so would, there would be like a part of it, be like, oh, I can like bitch about how bad my mom is because I never really knew my real mom because I was abandoned, because I have all these issues of not being good enough and like,

[00:04:56] Jeff: and you know what?

[00:04:57] Christina: do?

[00:04:57] Christina: I do. I live up to this like ideal that I was adopted into [00:05:00] and all that. That would be

[00:05:01] Jeff: and if that life was a song, you would go, son. She said, have I got a little story for you who you thought was your daddy?

[00:05:12] Merlin: wait. Is that, am I getting that right?

[00:05:15] Jeff: It’s

[00:05:15] Merlin: I’m either throat singing or doing Eddie Veder

[00:05:23] Jeff: We got that out of our system.

[00:05:24] Merlin: with a surprise.

[00:05:29] Jeff: Oh my God. I

[00:05:29] Brett: So.

[00:05:31] Jeff: I gotta, I wanna keep going. I wanna keep going.

[00:05:34] Brett: With, oh, don’t make me edit. Um,

[00:05:40] Merlin: wanna make work for you. I’ve recently started editing a podcast and like I, I, I, I treasure how little work I put into it. People edit too much. Just edit.

[00:05:50] Brett: well, I agree with that. I, uh, we, we don’t, we used to, I used to edit more, um, and be more, um, [00:06:00] anal about ums and ahs and misspeaks and, and I just, that’s natural. It’s like

[00:06:08] Merlin: you cut all of that

[00:06:09] Brett: don’t tune into us for a tight,

[00:06:11] Merlin: maybe it’s not a podcast that you want. If you don’t like that, maybe that’s not, you know, maybe what you want is NPR.

[00:06:17] Brett: Right.

[00:06:18] Jeff: Oh, you know, when I worked for, um, American Public Media, I worked with an amazing reporter and producer, and I sat in a booth with her while she grabbed the tea sound from another part of an interview and inserted it into the word that a person had spoken. And that

[00:06:33] Brett: I don’t want to do

[00:06:34] Jeff: that is all the way down the road.

[00:06:35] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:06:36] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:37] Brett: So we’ve kind of already touched on a place that we know, we all know we’re going.

Mental Health Corner

[00:06:44] Brett: Um, but that’s the, uh, the mental health corner. We can make this, we can make

[00:06:49] Merlin: Have a song for it or

[00:06:50] Brett: last time I was here, we have talked about, we have talked about, I. I’ve always wanted like martini hour music for this, um, like a real [00:07:00] 1950s shrink office kind of thing.

[00:07:02] Merlin: like a maybe, like, you know, uh, yeah, like I’m, I’m thinking like a, like a, like a, you know, Jo kinda like,

[00:07:09] Brett: So historically when we do this with Merlin, it ends up being two hours out of a two hour and 15 minute podcast. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna do our best to like, have other topics, but we don’t have to because that’s part of the reason we bring Melin

[00:07:25] Merlin: people, some people would say that you’re passive aggressive. I wouldn’t say that.

[00:07:29] Christina: Some people would say.

[00:07:30] Merlin: Wouldn’t say, if it pleases you to be like that, I, of course, I’ll just do, do whatever you want, man. Wow. Wow. We learned so much guessing on a podcast in a web browser.

[00:07:41] Brett: so Merlin, how’s your mental health?

[00:07:43] Merlin: Good. How about you guys?

[00:07:46] Jeff: Pass the talking stick.

[00:07:48] Merlin: Um, good, good, good, good. I, uh, I’m always, um, uh, not always I’m, I, I’m trying to make a distinction that might seem, [00:08:00] uh, sort of, it’s early here. It might seem like, like sort of an unnecessary distinction, but, uh, I, I, I, I do like to distinguish between what I call mental health and what I would call emotional health.

[00:08:09] Merlin: I’m saying that like I’m some kind of like a revolutionary therapist that just invented that distinction. It’s just that in the day to day of people talking about this, the phrase I hear a lot is mental health. And I don’t know why I. I, I like, I, I think I do know why I like the distinction. I think emotional health and mental health are worth thinking about and looking at separately.

[00:08:34] Merlin: And like, just in terms of my own confession about that, it’s like, I have to admit when I hear mental health, I think of things like further on down the spectrum of like the sort of chemical issues that some of us have to some extent or another, all the way down to the chemical issues that some of my dear friends have that make their life nearly unlivable.

[00:08:51] Merlin: I think of those kinds of things, emotional health, boy, that that’s, that’s the key for me. How am I managing stuff in [00:09:00] life and how am I managing, or how am I experiencing to, to use a word, word, I don’t like to use that way, but how am I experiencing my emotions and how, what effect is that having, because as tight as your mental health might be, if you’re not managing your emotional health well, and, and I’m, I’m not even saying that’s kinda like pushing a rope.

[00:09:18] Merlin: Like it’s hard, like how do you, you know, decide to feel a certain way, but, uh, it’s, it’s all pretty okay. Considering as always, I’m working on sleep as always. I’m, I’m trying to work on like, you know, just a, a lot of stuff. I don’t want it to be two hours long if you don’t go into any aspect, I could do an hour on any aspect of it, but let’s just say I’m fine.

Sleep and Medication Challenges

[00:09:38] Brett: Well, since this is Overtired, tell me how sleep’s going.

[00:09:41] Merlin: Good. Um, we were talking before about, um,

[00:09:45] Brett: I.

[00:09:46] Merlin: um, me medicine things and, uh, pharmaceutical things, and in summary, probably something I’ve said each time I’ve been on is I, I always find it so challenging to balance all these different things. My mom as ever, is going through kind of a health [00:10:00] thing right now, and she’s always kind of my poster child for this, where like, once you’re on Coumadin, once you’re on blood thinners, everything gets complicated and there’s no more easy fixes for anything because everything ends up being slightly connected, related

[00:10:14] Brett: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:14] Merlin: uh, consequential to other parts of your physical health.

[00:10:19] Merlin: So, so for me, uh, that’s always been a balance. I was telling Brett that, uh, I have high blood pressure and so they took me off. So I used to be on real A DHD drugs and then eventually my rinku, my love put me on a Vyvanse, which is fine. Then after the blood pressure stuff, guess what? Abundance of caution.

[00:10:43] Merlin: We need to make sure I can’t, I can’t responsibly hand you anything that has anything with good salts in it if it could cause you to have a stroke or a heart attack. So then I’ve just been on pilot medicine, which is useless, uh, Modafinil, like the stuff they give people with work shift disorder

[00:10:59] Brett: [00:11:00] Narcolepsy. Yeah.

[00:11:00] Jeff: Trucker speed.

[00:11:01] Merlin: It’s not, I wish it was trucker speed. It’s, no, it’s really just what they give it all. What it does is it helps you not fall asleep without giving you precisely any like, super amount of energy. Plus, it makes me, I want to point out a distinction within a distinction, uh, as drunk and white have told us, feeling nauseous and feeling nauseated are different things.

[00:11:27] Christina: Correct.

[00:11:28] Merlin: Okay? I just want you to remember that. ’cause I’m like that. And this is what I live for, these distinctions. ’cause life matters, but also being nauseated is not the same thing as throwing up, being nauseated is feeling like you have to throw up. These things make me throw up almost every day that I take them.

[00:11:43] Merlin: And I’ve gotten used to it and it’s not a big deal, but they, they really don’t agree with me. Uh, anyway, um, last week I got back on Vyvanse and the nice thing about that is, and Vyvanse is a, as these things go up pretty benign, A-D-H-D-I could look it up. It’s like there’s basically two [00:12:00] kinds of

[00:12:01] Brett: Yeah, it’s,

[00:12:02] Merlin: speed.

[00:12:02] Merlin: There’s,

[00:12:03] Brett: the one, it’s,

[00:12:05] Christina: but it, but it, it has, uh, it, the way that

[00:12:07] Merlin: is it, I don’t think it.

[00:12:08] Christina: is

[00:12:09] Brett: Vyvanse is in the same class as Adderall, but it’s, uh, it’s got like one molecule removed

[00:12:14] Christina: Yeah. It has. Yeah. It, yeah, it has one, one different removal. It, but it, but it’s the same core thing. It’s the same as, as, uh, d arine or, or dexo, whatever, you know, which is like the oldest type type, type of amphetamine, but they have one less molecule, and the way that it, it absorbs in your body is this different, and it has to have like water.

[00:12:30] Christina: Like you can’t just like the way it’s supposed to be designed, you can’t just snort it. You can’t snort it. Yeah. And that’s, that’s part of why it was designed. And the other reason was frankly for, um, uh, patent extension. Um, and, and the patent, the patent expired like two

[00:12:43] Merlin: The delivery mechanism, you know, for your nex VM or whatever. Anyhow, uh, and that, that has been, I think, a boon, uh, in a quarter of a dozen ways where, uh, for one, uh, it doesn’t really do that much for me, but the [00:13:00] prospect of saying like, okay, I’m gonna get up. And I, and again, the balance, right? I, I can’t take it.

[00:13:04] Merlin: I shorten to take it at 11:00 AM because for whatever reason it has effects on me. I’m grinding, I’m kind of grinding my teeth at like nine o’clock or

[00:13:12] Brett: Yeah. As a, as a 16 hour half life.

[00:13:16] Christina: Yep.

[00:13:16] Merlin: So I, what I do is if I get up to urinate, I take it early, but this is gonna sound weird, but like, I used to really look forward to taking Adderall, um, because it had a huge impact on my ability to feel like I’m running my life.

[00:13:30] Merlin: It had side effects too, but that helps. So it ends up being this omnibus project with saying, well, if I want to feel the way I’d like to feel tomorrow, follow me. ’cause this is really, really dopey third grade kind of stuff. If I wanna feel the way I, I. De minimus level of functioning Tomorrow, I’ll, I’ll take a Vyvanse.

[00:13:51] Merlin: So when are you gonna take a Vyvanse? I need to take a Vyvanse pretty goddamn early. Like what, like 10 or 11? Nah, earlier, like I could take it as early as four and like [00:14:00] I can still sleep. But I’m looking forward to that because then I’m thinking when I wake up, I’m already, I’ve got one in the chamber and I’m like, okay, let’s do this.

[00:14:09] Merlin: I don’t know, it’s, you know, we sometimes, especially with children, I feel like we try to create, and this is way too big for this topic, but we try to create all these, uh, systems of, of fear and guilt and, and shame and all the things that make a kid do the right thing because they don’t wanna feel shame.

[00:14:27] Merlin: Um, and like as you get older, you can realize, well, I also have ways to motivate myself. It requires a certain amount of bifurcated self in some ways. The same way that the, the, the one in the morning me is different from the 5:00 AM me and that kind of stuff. But long story short, it, I think I now I have more incentive to try something I wanted to do anyway, which is getting to bed a, a little earlier and BA little more around the same regular time. And that helps me,

[00:14:55] Brett: Yeah, I, so I take Vyvanse for very much the same [00:15:00] reasons you are currently on Vyvanse. Um, what was the one we used to take? Both of us were on it.

[00:15:08] Merlin: speedy one or we were, we’ve both been on, am I allowed to talk about

[00:15:12] Brett: No, there was another A DHD Med.

[00:15:16] Merlin: oh, um, see, there was Adderall and wasn’t Concerta. It was, um, I was, I was on Ritalin for a time in the early days.

[00:15:24] Brett: it’s another one.

[00:15:25] Merlin: Is it a prescription one?

[00:15:26] Brett: Yeah, it’s in the same category as Ritalin. I forget now. But anyway, like they, they said that was too bad for my blood pressure. And um, so they put me on Vyvanse and then they lowered my Vyvanse dose when I started having insomnia again. Um, and that didn’t actually help my insomnia, but because like I was functioning on the lower dose, they kept me on the lower dose.

[00:15:51] Christina: on the lower one. Yeah.

[00:15:52] Merlin: Yeah.

[00:15:53] Brett: I have a whole, I have a half a bottle left of the higher dose, and every once in a while, if I know [00:16:00] it’s gonna be a rough day,

[00:16:01] Merlin: Oh, I was the same way. I had, I

[00:16:02] Brett: I’ll take the

[00:16:03] Merlin: I had three that I found in a bag for travel. Um, and I’ve been off it for, just so we’re clear here, we’re talking about two years, two years of, if I sometimes don’t seem as sharp, it’s because I’m 58. And also because like, I’m just, just, you know, I’m just drinking coffee and trying to say something smart.

[00:16:22] Merlin: And it’s not, it’s, it’s not always, uh, nobody cares, but it’s not always, you know, so easy. Um, but uh. It’s such, it’s all such a balance. And ultimately, again, we’re the project manager for those things. And, you know, you don’t want to, uh, you don’t wanna burn too bright and too fast. And it’s, I don’t know, it’s, I I’m not, I don’t have anything smart to say about it.

[00:16:45] Merlin: Uh, I I, I keep thinking of a book that I read that I’m not recommending this book, not at least, because it’s very, it’s outta print, difficult to find and full of, um, falsehoods, but it is a good read. And that is Albert Goldman’s biography of Elvis Presley.

[00:16:59] Jeff: Oh

[00:16:59] Christina: Okay.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Merlin: Okay. And Albert Goldman was this, I mean, one doesn’t say fabulous, but, but he was not above enhancing details of accounts that happened.

[00:17:11] Christina: Which, which means his books must be really fun.

[00:17:14] Merlin: Yeah. Yeah. And the Elvis one is great. It starts out brilliantly. I finally found, I’ve been telling my kid about it before he could talk, and finally I found a used copy and bought it and it was like, I gotta read the first chapter of this. ’cause the first chapter is so great. It’s Elvis circa 76, 77, getting ready to go on stage at one of his wackadoo shows where he does, you know, I wish I was, that’s trilogy at the end and all that.

[00:17:38] Merlin: Uh, and it’s, you know, it’s not nice to say, but for the young people, it’s fat Elvis. This is like in the time before he died, and the Descript of the drug regimen that he had before he would go on stage really just to get his day going. And you’ve probably all heard this, I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s a controlling metaphor for me in some ways.

[00:17:56] Merlin: Elvis gets strapped into his corset. He has received [00:18:00] barbiturates, he has res, he received uppers, he has received downers, he’s received vitamin shots of many different kind. He gets double air quotes there. He gets vitamin shots of all different kinds. He gets, I think, laxatives and um, and stop pooping pills.

[00:18:15] Merlin: He got like seventies and odium title,

[00:18:17] Jeff: cover your bases.

[00:18:19] Merlin: cover all your bases, including home, if you know what I mean. But I think about that sometimes where like, and, and forgive my saying, Brett, I wonder if this is something. Folks who’ve been through what you’ve been through over the years, go through where you’re like, oh, I gotta have this to do that.

[00:18:35] Merlin: And then I have gotta have this to this to fit. It’s like, uh, chemical Tetris where you’re like, and then I’ve gotta get this to there, but if I have too much of that, but I gotta bring that down and if I have this kind of alcohol instead of that kind of alcohol, maybe I’ll feel better. And like you do all these weird combinations of things.

[00:18:48] Merlin: All this basically like personal witch doctoring, um, to, to try and get yourself to something that feels like homeostasis plus, you know? And, uh, that’s how I feel [00:19:00] sometimes, even when I’m just like, oh God, I gotta get up and take the goddamn thing that makes me throw up. And then I can’t really drink coffee.

[00:19:06] Merlin: ’cause then I’ll just throw up the coffee and I’m sorry this is gross, but I just wanna give you the picture of what you all probably go through in your own way, which is like trying to find the balance, the combination, the um, the, the internal sort of integrity of a system that helps you be close enough to who you wanna be sometimes are better than ours.

[00:19:27] Jeff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:29] Brett: yeah. Well, and for me, I like, I don’t use illicit drugs anymore. Um, but as far as like the combination I’m on. No fewer than seven prescription medications. Um, and I do drink alcohol and I do mushrooms. And, um, one slight change in any part of that system can lead to, uh, [00:20:00] things collapsing. And it is, um, it, yeah, it’s a juggling

[00:20:05] Merlin: sometimes, if I could say at least for myself, I speak for myself, you don’t know how long that collapse is gonna be for. Like sometimes you’re just like, you had an up cwc and it’s gonna be one of those days. Um, I mean I do, I do stuff like, this is, I’m so weird. I, when I make, I make a monthly set of pill packs.

[00:20:20] Merlin: When I get my, uh, my drugs every month, I use these little wasteful plastic bags and I do all my pills for like a month so that I can have this. And this is, this is so, I don’t know something. But I finally have gotten to where, when I take the drug bump, I record that I took them and date ’em. And then I do a strange thing, which is kind of related to a thing I do with leftovers, which is I write the day of the week on the bag so that when I throw it away, if I have this panicky feeling later, did I, did I take these twice?

[00:20:51] Merlin: Did I take the, I like, I’m probably the only person in the world that has this, but I get panicky. I’m like, I can’t have this much Gabapentin, I can’t have double the amount of [00:21:00] gabapentin. That’s not wholesome.

[00:21:01] Jeff: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:01] Merlin: You know, I we’re not double the propanolol. That’s fine. I could

[00:21:05] Brett: Have you ever accidentally doubled your Vyvanse? That is a horrible

[00:21:10] Merlin: I don’t, I mean, I, I certainly have doubled something in the past accidentally. Um,

[00:21:17] Brett: I did it once, once in recent me

[00:21:20] Merlin: dosed, like you got dosed. Like, you’re like, well, I’m just gonna have to ride this thing out. Like, go where it takes me.

[00:21:26] Brett: yeah. My partner has taken to, uh, fill, you know, there’s like pill containers with the day of the

[00:21:33] Christina: days. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[00:21:34] Brett: and, and l fills those in for me every week because I tend to fall behind. And then I just get into, I, I know what I need to take, I’ll just take it.

[00:21:44] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:45] Brett: I generally do a good job of recording it in my apps, but I do have that same panic thing where like, I’m not sure I took it and maybe I, maybe I did take it and

[00:21:55] Merlin: Well then start thinking, did I take three? Like if you’re like me, and let’s get to the, from the [00:22:00] emotional to the mental. I don’t know which one this is, but sometimes it’ll just be like, did I just space this and, and do something? And I feel like, um, like the way Maria Bamford so wonderfully talks about having OCD and that, that feeling of like, I’m gonna push somebody onto the subway tracks.

[00:22:13] Merlin: I’m probably a sex criminal. Those ideas that go around your head, I sometimes think I, then I panic and I’m like, well, how many have I had? And like, it sounds so weird, but like it’s, you know, anyways, bags

[00:22:25] Jeff: So, wait, I have a system question at what, how much overlap is there between the end of the bags and the, and the filling of the next month? Or do you do it right as they run out? You just have a system, you start it.

[00:22:38] Merlin: Well, these are, these are things I take at night that are mostly sleep related. Um, so there’s not that usual running right up against it of, with say, Adderall, where it’s like you, you’re there at like 9:01 AM because like, that’s when you’re allowed to have it and you, you feel like you’re, you know, you’re on probation or something.

[00:22:58] Merlin: Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:00] No, th those, those work out okay.

[00:23:01] Christina: like the individual’s date on each bag?

[00:23:04] Merlin: no, no, no. They’re all identical and I just, uh, I just drop ’em in. Take a big drink. All good.

[00:23:10] Christina: the, the reason I ask is because I, ’cause I’ve done this thing where like I’ll just space where I’m like. Um, did I just take my pills and, and I, I won’t, I’m like, did I, did I, did I just do that or not? And then I’ll have to go back and like count and then I’ll have to

[00:23:24] Merlin: Oh, no, no, no. That’s madness.

[00:23:26] Jeff: in the bottle.

[00:23:27] Christina: agree. I agree with you. I agree with you. What I’m saying though is that my fear would be that if I put them in the backs, I could still have that moment where I’d be like, did I just take that? Did, did I just

[00:23:36] Merlin: that’s why I write the day of the week on it.

[00:23:38] Christina: Okay. Well, well, that’s why I was asking. So you, you put

[00:23:40] Merlin: I mean, I mean after, no, after I’ve taken it there. So mine are all identical. Okay. This is how dumb I am and how dumb I encourage everyone to be. I’m gonna say two things and then I’m

[00:23:48] Jeff: How dumb are you?

[00:23:49] Merlin: I’m so dumb. Are you ready for this? Dumb Donald? I need one of those, one of those Gene Rayburn stick microphones.

[00:23:57] Merlin: Um, dumb. Donald was [00:24:00] so dumb. Um, I make these whatever, 28 or whatever these, and I stick ’em in a little Aiken Mills, you know, Equa Mills bin, whatever that

[00:24:08] Jeff: Oh, yeah. It’s a wonderful

[00:24:10] Merlin: are great companies. Yeah, great containers. And, um, but no, so I’ve started because, and you know, I won’t need to, hopefully I won’t need it is hoped I won’t need to do this for the rest of my life.

[00:24:19] Merlin: But after I take these, uh, I should write SAT on this and that sounds dumb. But then I’ll know, like as a double backup and until I get, if, once I get better at that, I won’t do that as much anymore. When I put leftovers in the refrigerator in a little bag, I write the day of the week that I put the leftover.

[00:24:36] Merlin: See, you’re all nodding. The listener will not know this. These people are nodding. Nobody in my house is

[00:24:41] Brett: Pyrex lids that have a dial where you set it to the day of the week, you put it in the fridge.

[00:24:47] Christina: oh, look at you, Mr. Fancy.

[00:24:49] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:24:50] Merlin: Yeah. Unfortunately, our refrigerator is, uh, is a museum, um, where food is fri where garbage is cooled

[00:24:58] Christina: Yes. I was gonna say my, my, [00:25:00] my, my, my, my mine is a thing where like I, my, my, my refrigerator is like great aspirations, both of things that I will cook for myself

[00:25:06] Merlin: Sing it, sister. Who’s gonna eat that? Who’s gonna, it’s got carib in it. What, what aspirational food. You’ve gotta be kidding me. It’s like, it’s like buying, it’s like buying like a okas and keeping them in the attic or something. Like, whatcha doing? No, I, no, I love my family, but, uh, I do, I do like to have some, some sense of ease and certainty.

[00:25:26] Merlin: You know, a lot of a DHD as, you know, I, as I get older and I spend more time with this, my realizations about it become more and more obvious, which I think is a gift. And, um, you know, one of those things is that when you’re an anxious person, you’re always seeking new information or different information, or saliently updated information.

[00:25:45] Merlin: I feel like I’m just speaking generically here. I can’t get anywhere near being in the moment if I’m, if there’s a loose end out there that’s on my mind, and so I keep seeking information. One, keep [00:26:00] seeking information about that loose end, and at least you can feel like the classic Ed Sullivan plate spinning, you could go.

[00:26:06] Merlin: Well, I just, I did everything I could to get the, keep these six plates in motion. The plate that was wobbling, I spun that. Now maybe I get five minutes to watch YouTube and not feel like a crazy person. And that is, that is a tough, that’s an anti-pattern in this, I think, if I could say in the sense that it feels like it’s helping, uh, but it’s not necessarily helping.

[00:26:28] Merlin: And sometimes I try to learn to incline myself more toward. Certain, like I said, like I’ve said, I, I’ve got this series of things I’d like to say to myself pretty often, like, I’ve got this list I maintain of like, good things to say to yourself to catch yourself and like not go spinning down one sort of hole or an or another.

[00:26:49] Merlin: But I think that’s been a tough, I don’t know if, I don’t know if y’all agree, I’d be curious to hear what you think, but do you ever find yourself like becoming aware that the seeking of new and [00:27:00] updated and complete information can become a very unwholesome distraction from just sitting in, in the moment

[00:27:05] Christina: Oh yeah. it, it, it’s, it’s, it’s a constant struggle that I have, right. Which is like, what am I missing out on? By wanting to be up to date on everything and to like, know as much as possible. Like, am I actually, am I actually understanding a lot of things or am I just like, is

[00:27:21] Merlin: like the class, you can’t get outta your inbox

[00:27:23] Christina: Right. Well that’s

[00:27:23] Merlin: there’s always something in there

[00:27:25] Christina: something else there that’s gonna distract you and take you something else. And it’s like, how, how, how, how do I do it? And I, and I, and for what, what, what’s hard for me is that when I was younger, it really did feel easier to be on top of it all. And, and I don’t know if it’s

[00:27:38] Merlin: Because you could, you could change gears quicker.

[00:27:39] Christina: right.

[00:27:40] Christina: Well, and it’s not even, I think it was less that I felt like I just had like more of an ability to just like, maybe, maybe change gears. Maybe that is accurate. But, but I felt like it was more of a, like I, I, I could, um, get more accomplished. Uh, and now I don’t know if it’s an age thing, if, if it’s slower or if it’s just that,

[00:27:57] Brett: Or if the world’s sped up.

[00:27:59] Christina: or if [00:28:00] I’m trying to just, if, if I’ve, I’ve keep enhancing like the number of things, like I keep adding other things.

[00:28:07] Christina: Like it used to be like, this would be one area that I would like try to keep up on, like

[00:28:10] Merlin: Well, to, to my analogy, you’ve, you’ve unintentionally added another plate

[00:28:14] Christina: right?

[00:28:15] Merlin: to spin,

[00:28:16] Christina: Yeah.

[00:28:17] Jeff: my version of that is, um, it’s kind of like, uh, doing a clean install on your computer, which I used to do, sort of, um, very, um, just out of nowhere I suddenly needed to do a clean install of my computer. And I have this tendency when I’ve gathered a lot of information or have a sense that something’s not quite right, um, to wipe the slate clean and have to build it up from the start.

[00:28:39] Jeff: I have a, a much better system for that. Now, putting the computer thing aside, ’cause I, I did realize that that was a, a red flag if I’m doing that, if just some general state, but now what I’ll do is if I have like a drafts file and I’ve just like been, it’s kind an omnibus file and I’ve been keeping all this information as I build the information and I, and I realize I no longer have a hold of it, I just open up a [00:29:00] second window and I start building it, um, from scratch with the messier version next to it.

[00:29:05] Jeff: Um, and then

[00:29:07] Merlin: takes so many years to get to where you can be comfortable doing that. It really, it really does.

[00:29:12] Jeff: yeah, yeah,

[00:29:14] Brett: I am, uh, I’m gonna throw in, I’m gonna throw in a sponsor read right here, if that’s all right with everybody.

[00:29:20] Christina: Do it.

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Work and Personal Struggles

[00:31:35] Christina: Um, all right, Brett, do you, do you wanna, do you wanna talk next, like about some, like your, uh, mental health corner stuff?

[00:31:42] Brett: Yeah. Well, my, my mental health is heavily, um, centers around a recent reorg at Oracle. Um, and because I wanna, I, I don’t want to talk too much about that. I will make that my mental health corner. Um, [00:32:00] I, uh, a little over a week ago, my manager said, Hey, you got a sec. And I, we zoomed and he informed me that I was no longer on his team.

[00:32:13] Brett: I was on the team of someone I had never met with a bunch of people I had never met, doing things that I was not hired to do. And, um, looking around, it happened to. At our entire division, like everyone under our VP and like three SVPs, were all just shuffled, kind of randomly, um, into areas that we weren’t trained for and weren’t familiar with.

[00:32:43] Brett: And everyone, and then you, like, you’re trying to get trained on something, so you ask who to talk to and nobody knows anymore because the person who did that job isn’t doing that job anymore and I can’t get access to the things I need to because I’m not [00:33:00] on the right, I’m not in the right department anymore, and it is a cluster fuck.

[00:33:06] Brett: And I, I have some personal, uh, personality issues with my team, um, that I am working through, but every time I like talk myself down and say like, you gotta not read into that. You gotta give ’em the benefit of the doubt. Then I talk to them again and it just gets reignited. And so much like passive aggressive behavior and power struggles and it has not been fun.

[00:33:33] Brett: It has really warmed me down and I’ve been in like a state of kind of panic about what do I do without this job because it just doesn’t seem tenable. Um. Last, the last couple days. And because I took an increased dose of Vyvanse, one of those days, I found myself way more able to, uh, navigate this new and terrifying world.

[00:33:58] Brett: Um, and I’m [00:34:00] going to talk to my doctor about, maybe let’s go back up, because that was really helpful. Um, but I, I’ve been losing sleep. I’ve been, uh, in a state of panic and l has been out of town, so they can’t help me like regulate all. I’m, I’m a very emotional person and stuff like this makes me very, um, I just cycled through like anger and despair and panic and, um, with even occasional euphoria when something seems like it’s gonna work out.

[00:34:33] Brett: And then, and it’s been exhausting

[00:34:37] Jeff: Yeah,

[00:34:37] Brett: also. Stupid. Why,

[00:34:39] Jeff: chaotic.

[00:34:40] Brett: why would you, this all happened because one person left to go to Amazon

[00:34:48] Jeff: That’s a hell of a, that’s a hell

[00:34:49] Christina: so, so, so they just

[00:34:50] Merlin: it, makes it sound like a, not a very durable, not a very durable team,

[00:34:54] Jeff: not a very durable system.

[00:34:55] Brett: well let’s, uh, instead of replacing this one guy at the top, let’s [00:35:00] just shuffle everybody underneath them across the organization.

[00:35:05] Christina: Was it a power struggle was were like people wanting to get like control of some other things. Like, so the headcount would be like, oh, I want this. I mean,

[00:35:12] Brett: I’m not privy to the T around all of that partly ’cause I just don’t, I don’t care. Um, I, I care about my job and where I land, but it’s at some point, one of my managers made me an M four, which at Oracle comes with a whole host of responsibilities. They gave it to me because they wanted me to have, uh, room to, to expand my salary.

[00:35:39] Brett: Um, and I was at like the, the cap for an M three. Um, but they, they never made a big deal out of that because I never got the raise A and, and b it was kind of a symbolic thing. Uh, but now my new manager’s like, oh, you’re an M four and I haven’t seen, I don’t see in your work record that [00:36:00] you’ve been meeting everything on this, uh, what do they call it?

[00:36:05] Brett: That she sent me this, like PDF that had a chart of like expectations for the different levels. And, and she doesn’t see that I have fulfilled my requirements to be an M four, so she’s gonna expect more out of me. And I’m like, you know, I haven’t seen a raise in three years. So if we, if we can talk about a raise, I’ll talk about being an M four, but

[00:36:31] Christina: right. So, so, so, so, so they gave you the promo because you were at the, the, the top of the cap on the other thing. And presumably you would get better bonuses, um, and, and, and other stuff there and, and better stock compensation there. That’s usually how it works. But they didn’t give you, uh, a salary bump.

[00:36:46] Christina: They just gave you the new title.

[00:36:48] Brett: Yeah.

[00:36:48] Christina: That’s fucked man.

[00:36:50] Brett: Yeah. Um, and I, so like the thing that keeps me sane is thinking about going India again and just being [00:37:00] my own boss and working on things I love and doing things I care about. And, um, I kind of failed at that last time around. I did, I ended up with a lot of debt and, um, things got rough and it was, I was really grateful to get the corporate gig, uh, at that point.

[00:37:21] Brett: And like I have this rose tinted view of what it’s like to be an indie dev, but also I know I’m not good at like, the business side of things and I don’t I what I want. So, okay. I’m sorry. This is getting longer than I planned for it to. But, um, in going through the training for some of my new job roles, I had to shadow the people who previously had those roles and watching them work and the sheer level of incompetence and inefficiency was killing me, [00:38:00] um, in the first

[00:38:01] Merlin: and that was presented, that was presented as something you should model. They could, they could, they could be the pros from Dover and come in and say, Hey, you know, I used to be like you. I had this job. I learned all kinds of things. But when they would like, demonstrate those skills, they were not impressive.

[00:38:16] Brett: They were terrible. Like I couldn’t believe one of these people had been doing it for like four years and within two hours of being given access to their tools, I had cut the hours down to about 10% of what they were spending on it. Um, and like, but what I

[00:38:34] Merlin: like, it’s like the guy, it’s like the guy in Idiocracy who’s gotta take the specs to the engineers. I know that that’s a cliche, but isn’t there an element of that sometimes where you’re like, wait a minute, how, how much of your job was this one thing that I could do?

[00:38:47] Brett: Yeah. So what I realized though is that’s the job I want, is to go in and tell people how to do their jobs better and then leave. Yeah, I wanna leave them [00:39:00] to do the work, but me, I’ll just make their work suck less. And I just want to be an efficiency expert consultant that goes, especially in publishing, um, workflows that goes in, uh, gives you, you know, 20% savings or on hours or company expenses and then moves on to the next company and gets paid bank to do it.

[00:39:24] Brett: Um, like that’s, if I could carve out a dream job right now, I think that’s what I would do. And thinking about that keeps me sane.

[00:39:34] Jeff: I, the M three and the M four are both guns. Um, and

[00:39:39] Brett: Also Max,

[00:39:40] Christina: I was gonna say, I know them as Max because I’m not a

[00:39:42] Jeff: Right, right, right. And, and

[00:39:44] Christina: my mind goes.

[00:39:45] Jeff: Just to,

[00:39:46] Christina: Or BMWs.

[00:39:46] Jeff: I don’t know.

[00:39:47] Merlin: Uh, I’m packing an M four Ultra, if you know what I mean.

[00:39:49] Jeff: Yes and to introduce Levi Di that may, may be disapproved of, ’cause it’s a comedian that I’m not supposed to quote, but this bit’s so good.

[00:39:58] Merlin: Lucy K. Lucy.

[00:39:59] Christina: Yeah.

[00:39:59] Jeff: [00:40:00] Allen. Woody Allen even, you know, even worse. Well, and actually I think this bit, okay, so the bit was, he was, he was classified four p by the draft board, which means in the case of war, he is most likely to be taken hostage.

[00:40:13] Christina: Yep.

[00:40:13] Jeff: And so all these things are going through my head, even though I, even as I break my heart breaks for you, Brett, because I know, I know your core and I, I remember working with you when you came onto the project I was working on and, and how beautiful it was to just like articulate a, a problem to you and then you go away and you come back with such a, like, somehow sensitive solution, which is how a lot of your, how a lot of your tools are, they’re just very sensitive and, and, and humane.

[00:40:39] Jeff: Um, and, and it, it’s always killed me. Since you went to Oracle though, I very much understand why you’re there. Um, that, that part of you can’t possibly be recognized, um, or valued if it was recognized or understood somehow. Right.

[00:40:53] Brett: so a team. A team, an article that I don’t work on and didn’t at the time, um, [00:41:00] they heard through. The grapevine that I was good at, like markdown and scripting

[00:41:07] Jeff: this. Yeah. This is a good example of something different.

[00:41:10] Brett: and they came to me and they asked me to automate the process of converting Confluence documentation to, uh, GitHub flavored markdown.

[00:41:20] Brett: And I loved that project. I,

[00:41:23] Jeff: hired you.

[00:41:23] Brett: I spent, I spent maybe 20 hours on that project. They said I saved them over a thousand hours of, of time they would’ve spent on this. Um, and then they shared that solution with other docs teams. So that number went up exponentially. But when my review came around, I didn’t get to list that because it was technically unauthorized time at my job that I, that I spent doing something that was very beneficial to the company, but that I was, it wasn’t part of my job Descript, um, which kinda killed me, [00:42:00] but

[00:42:01] Christina: Is there, and that, and that’s such a, that’s such bullshit. I remember when you told me it is just such a terrible like.

Navigating Corporate Challenges

[00:42:09] Christina: Way the system works, um, in, in these corporate, you know, things about what you’re rewarded for and what you’re not. Um, are there any other teams like I think that the consulting I, I think, I think is great and I’m glad that’s kind of keeping you sane.

[00:42:21] Christina: ’cause I think that’s a thing to think about because I think maybe if you found like a right partner or somebody to work with on that, like that could be like a real opportunity, um, for you to frankly even like work at, or, you know, Oracle as a potential, as a potential client. You know, there are like a lot of avenues, places you could, but before you get to that point, I mean, they keep reorging you and, and making changes to you.

[00:42:42] Christina: And that’s so shitty, especially when you’re being told, oh, you’re not meeting these expectations. Expectations, but you might not even have been told what they are. And two, when you’re not being compensated, um, uh, in a way that that makes you want to, you know, follow whatever they’re, they’re setting out.

Exploring New Opportunities

[00:42:56] Christina: I’ve, I’ve definitely been there, but I do wonder, like, [00:43:00] you know, you’ve, you’ve met these other teams and you know, some people who’ve done stuff, like, are there any other places that you might be able to go that, that

[00:43:07] Brett: Maybe I, I should ask around the, my first year when I actually had managers that I liked and that seemed to care about my success, um, they would keep an eye on other teams and let me know, like, so and so, like, does this and has heard of you and would love to work with you. So if you ever want to switch teams, contact this team.

[00:43:31] Brett: Um, so I went through all of those contacts that I had been given my first year. Every one of them was no longer at Oracle. Um, the, the turnover rate is there’s, there’s a quick the churn rate on Oracle and Oracle positions. So I would be starting from scratch looking. So it’s possible. And honestly, it’s gonna be my first avenue.

[00:43:55] Brett: I’m not just gonna quit my job and try to be a freelancer again, but,[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Jeff: Woo.

[00:44:02] Merlin: I ask, lemme ask a question if I may.

The Impact of Frequent Management Changes

[00:44:04] Merlin: Um, uh, I’m listening, I’m processing this somewhat phonetically, it’s a little bit outta my depth, but you described how you had a person you work with or for who gave you more responsibility, made you this M four. Is that right? And then so they, they, they, they’ve worked with Brett, they know Brett and in some ways that M four promotion, it would be nice if it had money associated with it, but it was, it was kind of a way of that person saying like, uh, like I trust you and I think you’re great at stuff.

[00:44:34] Merlin: And like, we’re, this is the only way you’re gonna move up is like, give you kind of like, I give you

[00:44:38] Brett: Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:39] Merlin: went and you were an M four for somebody else. And it sounds like they didn’t know you as well probably, and had a specific idea about what an M four does that might be detached from who Brad is.

[00:44:51] Christina: Yep.

[00:44:52] Merlin: That’s a, that’s worth strikes me as being something worth noting, right? Is that, you know, I mean [00:45:00] there’s so much, uh, economy of scale that people try to derive out of doing things the same way and, you know, company stuff and like, I, I, that all makes sense. I understand that there’s a reason we mow our lawn and rows instead of just spinning the lawnmower around.

[00:45:13] Merlin: But, but is that part of the frustration? I wonder, I’m projecting here, but that you go and you’re the same Brett, same title, but different expectations based on what that person needs out of an M four.

[00:45:25] Brett: This is my ninth manager in four years.

[00:45:29] Jeff: Wow. Wow.

[00:45:30] Brett: Yeah. Um, and every time it’s what you describe every time.

[00:45:35] Merlin: Somebody, somebody, two levels above that should think that’s weird.

[00:45:38] Brett: Yeah. Well, but that’s true for everyone. Everyone I know.

[00:45:42] Merlin: should go. How many of these have we

[00:45:44] Christina: I mean, I mean, I, I mean I, I, I had 12 managers in five years at Microsoft, so

[00:45:47] Merlin: Oh, well,

[00:45:48] Jeff: managers

[00:45:49] Brett: that two levels above, they’re also switching around. It’s, it’s, it’s a mess. But

[00:45:56] Jeff: Wow.

[00:45:56] Merlin: oh.

[00:45:56] Brett: anyway.

[00:45:57] Jeff: Sorry, Brett.

[00:45:58] Brett: That’s okay. Jeff,[00:46:00]

[00:46:00] Jeff: Nah, don’t say that. That’s the Midwestern thing. That’s okay. It’s very much not. Okay. But, but I love you. Um. That’s, oh God. Um, how am I, uh, I gotta follow that opening act. Um, I’m good. I’m good.

Mental and Emotional Health

[00:46:18] Jeff: Uh, I really liked the distinction between mental health and, and emotional health. Health. I feel like, um, I feel like mental health is, uh, depending on the context, has a little shame attached to it, but also can just be kind of a wall that I hit when I’m thinking about it.

[00:46:32] Jeff: But emotional health feels more fluid and inviting a little bit, um, and, and more dynamic, uh, and, and feels like it has fewer sort of rules. Um, when you enter into conversation. I know that like mental health conversations can kind of turn into war stories pretty quickly, um, and, and not, not get at the stuff that’s here, right?

[00:46:52] Jeff: Um, I don’t mean in this podcast, I just mean in general. I think it’s a, a little bit more of an invitation. Um, okay. So I’m good. I, [00:47:00] I am. My, my life, um, is, is in sort of two parts. I am constantly reading and I’m not gonna talk about news, but I’m constantly reading and taking in news. I never wanna talk about it.

[00:47:10] Jeff: Um, in part because we are in this moment where language has been both weaponized and neutralized, right? Like, when I try to put words in conversation or if I feel like I’m wanna write. You know, 10 words about the thing. I got nothing. Nothing. And that’s never been the case for me. That’s how I like writing even a few words, is how I bridge to whatever is like burning in me.

[00:47:31] Jeff: Um, and that kind of is, ends up being a little bit of a release, uh, or a sort of a meaningful thing. Um, and so. That’s been hard.

Finding Joy in Small Things

[00:47:40] Jeff: Um, but the, the other part of me is just totally immersed in the things that either give me joy or give people I care about joy, that are fun to talk about, that are discoveries.

[00:47:49] Jeff: I’m always a little like that, but I’ve found that I, it’s not even like I’m hiding in that. It’s like it’s become, it’s become something that is even brighter to me. Um, [00:48:00] and uh, and that’s been really. Um, and, and it’s a really, like, trite example of that is something that I would not expect to come outta my mouth, which is the band named Primus, um, which is not a band. Exactly, exactly. Not a band I like. Um, I, I liked one album in its time, uh, for a minute, but I’ve never had an emotional response to that band. I appreciate anybody who is sort of that narrow and yet experimenting inside of such a narrow box. I, I really appreciate that. I don’t relate. Um, but I super appreciate it.

[00:48:35] Jeff: But they recently lost their drummer and not death, but left and they decided they needed a new drummer. And, and so they put out a call on the internet. 6,100 people posted videos, uh, of themselves in order, including the drummer of my son’s band who, uh, posted a video that I think was just him banging the snare drum.

[00:48:53] Jeff: Um, which is really awesome. But they, they narrowed it down to like 10 people and they made these little like, [00:49:00] um, 30 minute mini docs of each audition. And it starts with Fred Armisen doing, uh, playing as a fake drumming YouTuber, um, always. And then they go into bringing these drummers in. It is really earnest and really sweet and the people who come in have a love for Primus that I can’t relate to.

[00:49:18] Jeff: But I super appreciate ’cause it is a passion and I really love people’s passions, especially now. Um, curiosity and passion, maybe the two greatest things, like a lack of it. Two of the saddest things. And, and it’s amazing ’cause they do the same thing every time. So every Friday one of these drop, every Friday I watch severance and I watch the new episode of the Primus intergalactic drum derby is what they call it.

[00:49:41] Jeff: And, and it’s everything from like these seasoned grizzled drummers to this. Like the last one was this 27-year-old kid. And then these two guys, the guitar player and the bass player and, and they’re just figuring it out together. They do a little free jam, then they ask the guy what song they wanna play.

[00:49:56] Jeff: The guy plays the songs, drum parts. That never spoke to me. But it’s [00:50:00] amazing to watch people who have been working on ’em from, you know, weeks come in and do it. There’s just chitchat. There’s like behind the scenes interviews and most of all, like if you’ve been in a band like. It is amazing to me, the older I get, I don’t care who the band is.

[00:50:14] Jeff: If I see that you’ve somehow managed to find a long arc, a way to a long arc, and you still seem like you’ve got your head together and you’re happy, which I can’t truly judge. But these two guys, Les Claypool, and I can’t remember the guitar players, they’ve just been through it together. And here they are in this like, it’s such a small group, it’s a trio, right?

[00:50:32] Jeff: So it’s like the two of them and then a new ingredient every week. And, and seeing how they talk about it, and especially this last, last episode, which I really recommend. This was this 27-year-old who was so sweet full of energy by far their favorite drummer so far. And, and it was amazing to watch the two, uh, grizzled guys, not only playing out, but then talking about how they couldn’t look at him without smiling.

[00:50:57] Jeff: Like they just, they found him so delightful in such an [00:51:00] infusion of sort of light. And so watching that happen every week, and it’s always basically the same songs in the same format, but it’s just as a musician I guess, and as a drummer especially, really lovely. And then I go really dark and watch Severance.

[00:51:12] Jeff: Um, but that has been really nice, um, and has just like been one of those examples of like just kind of helping me connect with like and brightness, um, even as I, and it helps me to take in all the darkness.

[00:51:28] Jeff: Um, and then the last thing, which i, I, I won’t, I just recommend people go to, is I just binged a blog for the first time in like 20 years.

Nick Cave’s Blog and Grief

[00:51:35] Jeff: It was Nick Cave’s blog. Um, Nick Cave, who I’ve loved forever, um, has a blog where he answers reader’s letters and questions. Um, and he does so with such an incredible depth and, and, and grace and humor. And one of them is a, is, I’ll put a link in the show notes, is a letter from some children in a school in like Corsica, uh, who asked him, uh, about his grief and the, the death of his [00:52:00] two boys.

[00:52:00] Jeff: And then ask him, you know, you’re weird, you’re dark. We we like that, but are you ever happy? And then he responds and it’s just, it’s been beautiful and it’s been so long since I opened. It was a food poisoning actually. I opened that blog laying in bed and ended up reading like, you know, a whole, like, I don’t, maybe 15 posts.

[00:52:18] Brett: Did you watch the documentary that came out maybe two years ago?

[00:52:22] Jeff: I haven’t yet ’cause I, I can’t, um, this is the one that’s in the immediate wake of him losing, uh, his second son or his, I can’t do it. Um, and I,

[00:52:31] Brett: it’s intense. It’s really good though.

[00:52:33] Jeff: so this is a great way he touches on it. The kids ask him about the grief and hearing him process in a few paragraphs like that is really something that’s been amazing to take in.

[00:52:42] Jeff: So I’m also, uh, uh, as apparently he did like a 30 minute interview with Stephen Colbert that I’ve not watched.

[00:52:47] Merlin: Oh yeah, I saw that come up. It looked, you

[00:52:49] Jeff: Sounds like it’s a pretty incredible thing,

[00:52:51] Brett: I haven’t seen that.

[00:52:52] Jeff: yet anyway, so just kind of like letting that stuff in or finding that stuff has been just a huge support.

[00:52:59] Merlin: [00:53:00] absolutely.

[00:53:02] Jeff: Fucking Nick Cave too.

[00:53:03] Jeff: Really. I mean, my God.

[00:53:04] Brett: Yeah.

[00:53:05] Merlin: I just, saw him I, I don’t wanna derail it, but I just would like to say I totally agree and, um, I, I’m trying to do something along similar lines, I think both for myself and hopefully for other people. But, and I mean, I would go into that if you ever wanted to, but I, I agree with you. There’s, there’s, um, so QED we were talking earlier about, at least to this, A DHD adult brain that sometimes seeking out some kind of a certainty, like, why do we check our inbox when we check our inbox?

[00:53:38] Merlin: ’cause it could be a bomb in there. And I can’t go back to what I’m trying to do in as long as I think there’s something out there that could get me somewhere. I mean, that’s what it, what are you anxious about? Nothing and everything. That’s what anxiety is. If I was worried about something specific, it would be fear and it would be manageable.

[00:53:55] Merlin: But, um, I think. There’s, [00:54:00] I don’t know. See, I, I’m really, I’m not, I don’t mean to be critical. It’s a really, really, really hard time for almost everybody. Some people more than others. And I would, but I sometimes, I don’t know, I, I always wanna kind of check my privilege on this. I’ll never, I don’t, I, I don’t ever want to seem like I’m making light of something that’s very, very serious.

[00:54:20] Merlin: But there’s also a fact that I’ve gotta keep in mind, which is, um, you’ll always find something worse and you’ll always find something more terrible, and you’ll always find something to remind you that you aren’t up to date on the stuff that you should be worried about. There are certain publications, including one I to which I subscribe based in, uh, New York City.

[00:54:41] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:42] Merlin: They’re located in Times Square, if that helps at all. Um, that, that I feel like has really gone into the business of keeping you off balance, making you feel like a lack of balance is what’s the only thing out there. The only way to keep your head above water is to constantly be reminded of a thing that you [00:55:00] should be more worried about, and then on top of it all to subtly give you the impression that they’re the only people who can pull you out of the infra information morass that has you so sad and confused and whatever.

[00:55:10] Merlin: It’s a living. And so, just to be clear, I I’m not trying, I, I really, I, there’s a lot of things I just won’t, don’t say in public because you can’t control how people are going to, how it’s gonna land with people. And you never want to be horrible with people, but you know. There’s not as much durability or longevity or substance to a bad time as it feels like, not at least because it’s constantly turning into another bad time in one way or another.

[00:55:41] Merlin: You, you can’t beat that. Like you can’t just because things are extra super bad right now. The lesson to draw from that is, I mean, just to get it outta the way is not that you should, you know, distract yourself and bear your head in the sand and all that stuff. Lemme come back to that later if we have time.

[00:55:58] Merlin: But, [00:56:00] but there is this sense that like, you’re not a serious adult if you’re not always just a very sad tomato. And if you’re not always finding some way, and like part of my beef with this is that people are not succeeding at finding a way to get their own head above what’s happening because it’s all horrible.

[00:56:17] Merlin: But then we also kind of encourage each other and we egg each other on to be sad sacks. And like every, every social media network I, I join, that seems like a world of possibility for a few weeks, eventually reversed to the mean. And it just all comes back to like obvious jokes about the orange man, which I can’t do anything about.

[00:56:34] Merlin: I can’t do anything about the orange man. I can’t do anything about the jokes. I can’t do anything about the deliberately horrible way. And I mean, that’s just one aspect of a, of a terrible world. But, you know, the, the word durability, there’s these words that come up and I probably sound like Tom Peters or something.

[00:56:50] Merlin: Durability, longevity, integrity. These term, these, these terms that are very meaningful for me because I. I mean, I feel like I’m, it’s not so much that I’m [00:57:00] trying to purely distract myself by listening to music from the 18th century or by watching a four part TV show about how terrible the, the world is.

[00:57:10] Merlin: What’s that?

[00:57:10] Jeff: Vivaldi’s, heavy metal.

[00:57:13] Merlin: Actually, I’m in an app right now called Vivaldi. Uh, so I don’t know. I, I don’t have, this is not anything I process to the point where I can say anything intelligent about, but I, but I will say this is the, like, you don’t make it better when you keep cutting yourself or whatever, when you keep just pushing everything to, to make yourself feel constantly on the edge of completely like coming apart at the seams, because it feels like the only rational thing to do.

[00:57:44] Merlin: And maybe it is. I take a different point of view, which is like, what are the things that are durable, not just in terms of being like the thoughts of Great man and stuff like that. Adolescence. This TV show on Netflix is an unbeliev. Unbelievably

[00:57:59] Jeff: Is what I hear.[00:58:00]

[00:58:00] Merlin: It’s an unbelievably durable thing. And like, and the thing I said to someone I co-host a podcast with where we’ll be talking about this, is to use an old phrase that I first heard associated with Greek trauma.

[00:58:14] Merlin: You know, in ancient times it’s cathartic, which is it enables you to sort of identify and feel. These feelings that are often just kind of in ate and bothering you and just a little bit of a mosquito bite sort of feeling. But part of it could be maybe you’re doing opera, you’re doing grand, you’re doing all these different kinds of theater and, and media that by the, or maybe watching slasher movies for that matter, or like, or Jesus watching the Pit, or like, poor Noah Wi Is, which I, I don’t care for, but like Noah Wiley, like wandering around in plastic, being traumatized and you are like, oh, I can finally feel something. But like, it’s, it’s just that I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I, I don’t know. See, I feel really bad even saying anything. I should come back to this topic when I have something more confident to say about it. It makes me very, very sad that [00:59:00] people, so many people in their own understandable, private, understandable ways have developed. Fun. Fact. Does anybody know what the original title of Annie Hall was?

[00:59:13] Jeff: No, God damnit. I did know though.

[00:59:16] Merlin: The original title of Annie Hall is anhedonia, which is a term for the inability to experience joy.

[00:59:22] Brett: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:22] Jeff: Wow.

[00:59:23] Merlin: And I feel like there is a kind of chronic anhedonia that’s happening now that doesn’t even feel treatable. It feels counter-revolutionary. It feels, um, it’s difficult to describe, but I, uh, I, as somebody who accidentally got a background in the liberal arts, I cannot stop myself from noticing the durable ways that our world is still connected, the durable, long live ways that our world is still.

[00:59:48] Merlin: Connected that it’s related, that it’s, that it’s grable and that there are instances of art all around us that give us the opportunity to feel real feelings instead of the one that just happened to [01:00:00] arrive in the post this morning. And it’s not, I’m not trying to fix anything, but like, and it’s sometimes it’s just like, fucking, you guys gotta watch this King gizzard in the Lizard Wizard

[01:00:09] Jeff: King is

[01:00:10] Merlin: I know I talk about it a lot, but

[01:00:12] Jeff: just watched their Minneapolis performance. It was unbelievable.

[01:00:15] Merlin: they, they put stuff up pretty few, but they do this, this one, uh, song on KX exp. They do this song song and there’s iron lung. And I happen to think it’s one of the, probably my favorite live rock performance of all time. If you, again, let’s just privilege, if you’ve played in a band, watch this and realize how much harder this is than it looks, and yet they make it look so easy.

[01:00:35] Merlin: Like, well, okay, but like, don’t I need to get back to seeing what the New York Times says? I need to be slightly differently worried about this afternoon. And I’m not, I’m not trying to be glib and I’m not trying to say, you know, feelings are real, pain is real. The all these things are real, real, real, real.

[01:00:50] Merlin: But like you still guys, you still have agency. You are allowed to look beyond. The terror that’s in front of your eyes and barely in focus for a minute [01:01:00] before it gets replaced by something else. You’re allowed to notice other things in the world. You’re, you’re, you’re allowed to derive and then share a feeling of humanity in art that has outlived the worst things in people of all time.

[01:01:14] Merlin: And we can’t just throw that baby out with the bath because of how it’s going right now.

[01:01:19] Jeff: you can’t throw babies out. You shouldn’t do that.

[01:01:21] Merlin: Well.

[01:01:23] Brett: I would like to offer a suggestion that nobody will take and we don’t have to talk about, but I have switched. I have switched from reading the Times and the Post and all of those to reading anarchist publications because anarchists don’t take that partisan view, uh, where everything the Republicans have done is bad and the, and the Democrats are weak and they’re not keeping up.

[01:01:48] Brett: Like they take more of an overhead, like all politics are

[01:01:53] Christina: Right. I was gonna say, but isn’t there, isn’t there a thing? Just all of this should be burned to the ground,

[01:01:58] Brett: not necessarily, [01:02:00] uh, that there, the, the idea is that a better world is possible and yes, maybe, maybe things have to burn to a certain extent before that better world is possible. But that’s not a requirement. Like they focus on humanity and, and beauty and art and, um, and see the inherent violence of government as the problem and not, not that one party is in power It feels like a governance problem because we’re so used to seeing the, the, that, that pretty a spray painted on things. It’s not really, it’s secondarily or tertiary, a governance problem, but it’s ultimately a power problem, which really does connect for me.

[01:02:44] Brett: Yeah, and I’ve, I find, I find a lot of comfort in reading from that perspective, um, and not getting my news like this up to the minute, oh my God, this executive order just came through and now these people are all fucked. And like, uh, yes, that’s happening. And yes, it sucks [01:03:00] and I don’t need to be riveted by that progression.

[01:03:04] Brett: But anyway,

[01:03:05] Jeff: Can I be a, can I be a bridge to Christina? Uh, out of this, there’s just a couple things. My very great bridge, a bridge to Christina.

[01:03:14] Merlin: Christina Tara, I think her

[01:03:15] Christina: oh, okay. That, I mean, I’m sorry. That book fucked me up so much as a child. All of

[01:03:20] Jeff: What,

[01:03:20] Merlin: I didn’t it my kid, but I

[01:03:22] Jeff: what book?

[01:03:22] Christina: the Bri British Teia,

[01:03:24] Jeff: Oh, got it. Okay. Got it. Is there a

[01:03:26] Christina: most No, no. God no. No, it, it, it’s the, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s actually an incredible chil I’ll talk about it my next thing, but go, go on.

[01:03:35] Jeff: Well, okay, two, two things. One, my favorite, an anarchist I ever knew. Uh, we were, we were in the laundromat together in Chicago, and we were waiting for my laundry, I think, to dry, and there was a laundry folding table with a sign that said, do not sit. And, and I, and we’re talking casually, and I got up and I sat on the table and he goes, dude, get off the table.

[01:03:52] Jeff: I was like, why? He’s like, if we could follow each other’s rules, we wouldn’t need police.

[01:03:58] Brett: exactly.

[01:03:58] Merlin: I, I, I, I’m gonna [01:04:00] quote, I’m gonna quote myself. Something I said pulled totally out of my ass on our Monday recording with Roderick and I, and I said it, and I’m, that’s not pretty smart, but I keep thinking about it. It’s not laws that keep its, uh, safe. It’s people observing laws that keeps

[01:04:14] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:04:15] Brett: Yeah.

[01:04:16] Merlin: And I was like, whoa, that’s

[01:04:17] Brett: then you, then you have the whole idea of anarchist calisthenics, which is the idea of, of if there are no cars in the street, it’s still technically illegal to walk across the middle of the street. But by doing so, you prepare yourself for a time in the future when there may be an unjust law that you do need to break.

[01:04:38] Brett: So you like, you practice these anarchist calisthenics, but you pick and choose what, what laws actually benefit people, what laws actually keep people safe, and those are the laws worth following. And then laws that are ridiculous or unjust. You, you build up the [01:05:00] willpower to

[01:05:00] Jeff: Red.

[01:05:01] Brett: break.

[01:05:02] Jeff: Holy shit. So you just created entirely new meaning for something that I’ve always kind of laughed about, which is I was in Germany and, and it was late at night and, and I was standing with some people at a crosswalk, but the, but the light was red

[01:05:15] Brett: This is

[01:05:15] Jeff: there were no cars. And I crossed the street and the Germans at that stoplight were like, Hey, what the fuck?

[01:05:21] Brett: Yeah.

[01:05:25] Jeff: Germans, of all people,

[01:05:26] Brett: Well, so the term, the term anarchist calisthenics came from an article about exactly that, where people were queued up at a stoplight when there was, there were no cars coming, and there was this like mob mentality of like, it is against rules to break this particular law. And, and this one guy started like just testing the waters and got a lot of flack from the people around him.

[01:05:50] Brett: I don’t remember what country it was in, but that’s exactly where the term came from.

[01:05:55] Jeff: The very last thing is just, uh, tying up Merlin’s thing, I think. And then Christina, I [01:06:00] promised I’m done. Um, in terms of range of emotion, I think this both speaks to what you were talking about just now, but also the emotional health thing. I was doing a profile many years ago of a forensic anthropologist.

[01:06:10] Jeff: He actually kinda like pioneered the techniques for, for digging up mass graves. Um, and, and I spent three days in his house and, and talking to him about his craft. Um, and, and, and he, um, he had a picture on his wall and it was, um, it was in Guatemala and they were, they were ex zooming, uh, uh, uh, a mass grave.

[01:06:30] Jeff: You couldn’t see that. You could see the pit, um, taken from his perspective, but kind of left the pit out. And then, you know, people who had relatives may be in there. Uh, all the generations were sitting around on lawn chairs and, and some were staring, you know, just blankly some, someone was eating ice cream.

[01:06:45] Jeff: A little girl was laughing. Um, and I asked him, I said, what, tell me about this. What is this? ’cause I just, I guess what I expect when I’m looking at this is just, just strictly horror and trauma or, or the waiting for it, right? And he said the thing that is most remarkable [01:07:00] about being in these situations is that when you are somewhere where something so horrible is, is literally being exhumed.

[01:07:07] Jeff: E every single human emotion is accept, is accessible, every single human emotion. And, and I, I just like, it’s, it’s haunted me ever since. Kind of a beautiful haunting. But Merlin, when you were talking, it just kind of came to mind. It’s, we can let that in. I, I want Christina to talk, but I

[01:07:24] Merlin: I have a lot Oh yeah, go

[01:07:25] Christina: no go. No, go on, go on, go

[01:07:26] Merlin: No, no, no, no. It’s not necessary. No, no, no. Go on.

[01:07:30] Merlin: gosh, we’re not letting the smart Christina. fine.

[01:07:34] Merlin: I just met a girl named Christina. That’s not really true. I met her long ago on a show.

[01:07:42] Jeff: On a shoe. In a

[01:07:44] Merlin: a shoe say it’s soft and it’s almost like praying. Um, but ah, fuck. I don’t know. Here’s the thing. I get this, I, I, I get this. I understand. I’m trying to say I understand that I get things less ’cause [01:08:00] it sounds condescending, but I understand why people are how they are. I understand. I think to an extent how I am, I’m just gonna say this and I’m gonna run away.

[01:08:07] Merlin: I’m just gonna light it and run away. ’cause I do not have any evidence for this. I don’t have a persuasive theory. I could not debate this with John Craig Syracuse to any effective level.

The Power of Vulnerability

[01:08:16] Merlin: But I’ve, in my, in my adult life, I’ve never felt the necessity of vulnerability as much as I do right now. Every, every fiber of most of us, of our bodies, our, our, our mind, our emotions, our mental state is, is telling us to toughen up and is telling us to never lose an argument and is telling us to, like I. Okay, so at that point, lemme just trail off there and say, isn’t it wild how terrible everyone can be to each other no matter what. We know how much people on our, at least on my side of the aisle, love to go after each other. And that’s just, that’s just the way that we do it. That’s why we couldn’t get things done for 30 years.

[01:08:57] Merlin: And then we finally got together on some things, and then [01:09:00] we decided that that was a bad strategy, and now we reject it all. Everybody, people are trying so hard to become invulnerable, emotionally, physically, psychically, religious, like however you look at it, uh, vulnerable. And it’s making people real stupid and, and real shortsighted.

[01:09:24] Merlin: And I, this is why I’m lighting it and running away. Just call it privilege. Call it what you want. I’ve never felt the need for vulnerability more in my life because I have found at much personal cost, the vulnerability is where growth is. Vulnerability is where you are. Invulnerability is trying to create a world of things around you that aren’t you.

[01:09:45] Merlin: You’re like the Soviet Union invading the, you know, the Latvian, Baltic countries to create these satellite countries. And like, we’ll never lose another drop of blood on, on, you know, Soviet soil. And that’s you. That’s all of us. When we try to create [01:10:00] these rings of info and listen, man, I don’t even know where to begin.

[01:10:04] Merlin: Like if you’re, if you’re in a terrible relationship with somebody that’s abusing you, like I, I’m not trying to steal valor from any of the, like the real stuff, but you know what, there’s always been real stuff. There will always be real stuff. There will always be terrible, terrible, terrible people and things that you can do nothing about.

[01:10:18] Merlin: So where are you in all of that at length? How long are you prepared to be the equivalent of like an NPC in your own little game where like you have just become yet another person who’s running through cross lights when people say it’s okay to cross that, that is, we we’re really, really just feeling things when we’re told to feel it.

[01:10:37] Merlin: And then the only, because part of it is the only kind of comedy, the only ways that we get a lot of community, especially online, which is life. What’s the quickest way to bond with somebody? Dentist office, jury, dude. What’s the quickest way to bond? Find something you both hate.

[01:10:53] Jeff: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:54] Merlin: the room you’re in.

[01:10:55] Merlin: Maybe it’s that, that, that, that nasty receptionist. But like you’d be amazed how many people from any side [01:11:00] of the aisle, people in pink and blue or red and blue or green and red or whatever, can bond over something that they both hate. Because that the clarity of something that we hate is a strong word.

[01:11:10] Merlin: The clar, how the clarity that we feel about something that we consider an intolerable situation. That’s an opportunity that where people too, people on a bus can, can talk about the same. That’s sometimes it feels like that’s all we’ve got now. Is the thing that we can both hate for a little while. And I’m just saying, I’m finding a lot of, if not power, I’m finding more of myself and vulnerability than I’m finding myself in this world of people that are basically like, like parking lot Ballards, just trying to keep anything from, from getting through their perimeter.

[01:11:41] Merlin: And they’re, they’re, they’re so unhappy and the trajectory for their future emotions is not promising right now. And they’re uninterested, not disinterested, they’re uninterested in it because keeping up the Ballards that make that vulnerability feel real are so important. But you’re [01:12:00] not in vulnerable.

[01:12:01] Merlin: You’re not even that strong. You’re just, you’re just puffing yourself up and, and trying to feel like nothing affects you. And man, I don’t see, again, I’m lighting it and running away, but there’s a lot of stuff if you chose to, there’s a lot of stuff that you can find near the end of your nose that we’re remind you that every single one of us is a human being that’s only here for a little while.

[01:12:23] Merlin: That we only have so much to offer, but we have so much to gain. We have so much to learn. We have so much to share. We have so much to pass on to each other in our humanity. I wouldn’t normally bust a gut like this, except I think there’s probably somebody who needs to hear

[01:12:34] Merlin: that. And if you have the courage, uh, of.

[01:12:38] Merlin: Being your own self or the courage of your convictions or however you look at it. You don’t have to tell a single person in the world, but learn to get a little bit more vulnerable. Maybe that means don’t be afraid to cry while you’re watching Doctor Who like, I don’t know, maybe that means, but you know, what that could mean is like there’s some kind of a tent pole piece of bullshit in your life that you think is keeping the roof up, that’s actually making [01:13:00] your room very crowded with all the different columns, with certainty and and sureness, and you’ve got it all figured out and you’re so fucking mad and everything has to be about everything, and that’s not gonna work for 20 years.

[01:13:14] Merlin: When are you gonna start becoming a human being again? What will it take for you to feel like you have permission to be a human being again, and to feel vulnerability? Because that’s what you are. If you’re a human being, you are step zero for now. You’re alive. You’re gonna be dead a lot longer than you’re ever, we’ve ever been alive.

[01:13:32] Merlin: I don’t know, man. I just, I, and I’m trying to avoid getting into examples that would make people roll their eyes, but there’s a lot of stuff at hand. You have everything you need to become a human being today, and it can save you a whole lot of overhead and it will not protect you from anything. But I defy a lot of people to tell me what they are successfully protecting themselves from.

[01:13:55] Merlin: Right now, I don’t think it’s working.

[01:13:57] Jeff: Mm. [01:14:00] Runs away.

[01:14:01] Christina: Yeah.

[01:14:02] Jeff: great. That’s.

[01:14:05] Merlin: Watch.

[01:14:06] Brett: on that

[01:14:07] Jeff: there’s another opening act you gotta follow. I just, I just had to follow, uh,

[01:14:11] Jeff: job. I’ll, I’ll bridge this for you. If it’s cool, I’ll do the other add read, and then you can start with kind of a clean slate. Um,

[01:14:20] Merlin: we could just keep this bit up where Christina never gets to Honestly, honestly, we’re fine. I’m

[01:14:25] Merlin: Lemme stop you there,

Sponsor: Rogue Amoeba

[01:14:28] Brett: so this episode is also sponsored by one of our favorite developers, RO MEbA, makers of

[01:14:34] Merlin: boo.

[01:14:35] Brett: audio software for the Mac.

[01:14:39] Merlin: What a dumb company.

[01:14:41] Brett: Oh. They specifically said in the aery that we’re not allowed to raspberry them. Um, no, but seriously, we love rogue Ameba, rogue amoeba.

[01:14:51] Merlin: down.

[01:14:53] Brett: They’ve been developing audio focus apps for the Mac for over 20 years, going all the way back to iOS [01:15:00] 10.2, which is Jaguar. If you’ve forgotten,

[01:15:02] Jeff: Jaguar.

[01:15:03] Brett: their latest versions make it a snap to get started with.

[01:15:06] Brett: No need to even restart your Mac. I personally love Sound Source and Loop Back, and I use them all the time. Sound Source puts per app audio controls, including the ability to apply effects right into your menu bar and Loop Back is an amazing app for routing audio signals and working with multiple audio devices.

[01:15:25] Brett: And I would be remiss of course to not praise Audio Hijack, uh, which everyone in the podcasting community is familiar with the all purpose tool for recording and routing audio on your Mac. It can do just about anything with application, audio or microphone input, and it has a ton of automation possibilities.

[01:15:43] Brett: Learn more about all of rogue Amoeba [email protected] slash Overtired. That’s mac audio.com/ Overtired. Uh, listeners of Overtired can save 20% off any purchase through the end of May with the coupon code [01:16:00] Overtired. Just go to mac audio.com/ Overtired and use the coupon Overtired. And now Christina, over to you.

[01:16:08] Merlin: Can I, can I, hang on, hang on. Can I talk about why I was being silly there?

[01:16:12] Christina: of course.

[01:16:13] Brett: Yes, of course.

[01:16:16] Merlin: It’s one of my favorite companies, and it’s one of my favorite companies, not simply because they make so many applications that I use every day, much like stuff you make Brett stuff that I use for my work, but like, they super care about their users in a way that is, that really shows.

[01:16:32] Merlin: Um, like I, you know, again, QED, I don’t like to make things negative, but Apple over time in the interest of purportedly of security, has made it a lot more frustrating to do very powerful things with your Mac and RBA has been every

[01:16:45] Christina: neutered it. Let’s just say it, let’s just call it what

[01:16:47] Merlin: sure try. They’ve sure at least, I don’t dunno if they cut ’em off, but they’ve definitely hidden them beneath some sort of, uh, general burka.

[01:16:53] Merlin: But Rova is there every step of the way trying to make things as easy as possible and dependable as possible for their users. [01:17:00] And they get my officio official Okie Doe except for Paul. I don’t like Paul personally. Go Birds.

Bridge to Christina

[01:17:10] Christina: Oh They’re great people. They’re great people. Um, okay. I don’t have that much to really, I guess kind of like add to, to the discourse. Certainly not anything like important, but when we’re talking about vulnerability, when we’re talking about other things and, and I guess, uh, ways of like getting in with your emotions.

[01:17:28] Christina: I’m so sorry. This is such a weird segue to go back to, I’m gonna go back to, to Merlin’s, like Bridget Teia joke. That book fucked me up so much as a kid, but it is like an incredible book. Um, the movie will fuck you up too, but uh, none of you have ever read it.

[01:17:44] Jeff: No, I’ve never heard of it.

[01:17:45] Christina: Okay.

[01:17:46] Merlin: I heard the movie’s not as good.

[01:17:47] Christina: I mean, the movie is actually good, but, but like, it’s, it, it’s hard.

[01:17:50] Christina: So it, it’s a children’s book ish. I guess it’s what we used to be able to call, I, I call like, like young adult, but like now, like has a different connotation, but like middle readers, right? Like, I [01:18:00] think I read it in elementary school, but you could definitely. It’s well written it like one, like whatever the, whatever the, the equivalent of the Pulitzer is for like children’s literature, like Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:18:11] Christina: Like it, it won that. And, uh, it, it, the, the author, she was like in her forties and it was, I guess kind of like, she’d been like a missionary. And then she wrote, uh, started writing like later in life, uh, publishing and, and like every single book she released was like incredibly well received, um, uh, critically and, and commercially.

[01:18:29] Christina: And her books have also been subject to book bands, which is ridiculous. But, um, the, the, the story, uh, I is about like the, these two, you know, kids who like 11 years old, like a boy and a girl and like takes place in like the seventies in, uh, like West Virginia or something, or, or, or, um, near the DC area. Um, so, so maybe regular Virginia and, uh, and kind of growing up together and what, and they kind of, kind of create this, this world together they call Teia, where, you know, they’re just kind of playing and, but it’s this [01:19:00] coming of age story and I won’t like. I’ll get emotionally even saying, let’s just put it this way. There is like the, the ending, like it is one of the most tragic things like you will ever read. And the fact that like say children’s book, holy Shit, it fucks you up, but like, in a really good way. And then that, the backstory is, is that, that she wrote it basically, um, it was in some ways based on like a real thing that happened to her actual son.

[01:19:24] Christina: And so it was like her way of like dealing with her grief to, to, to write about it. But it’s just, it’s, it’s a, it’s an incredible book. And it’s like one of those things like, um, I think about it sometimes, like when we think about like, I don’t know, it’s, it’s just, um, about feeling things like vulnerability.

[01:19:39] Christina: Like that is actually like weirdly for reading like a children’s book. But she wrote like, I guess higher level step

[01:19:45] Merlin: But it’s okay. You’ve got permission,

[01:19:47] Christina: Oh no, totally. But, but I’m saying no, but,

[01:19:48] Merlin: No, no, no, no. But I’m saying it’s different from like what you’re allowed to have a surprisingly strong feeling about in adulthood. Normally. That’s why I say Doctor Who, if I watch Day of the Doctor, my favorite episode of Doctor Who I’m, I’m gonna cry, [01:20:00] cry three different times.

[01:20:00] Merlin: It’s, this is known, but Right. Isn’t that part of it though, is it’ll catch you kind of off guard sometimes. Like a real feeling will hit you from a place you didn’t expect.

[01:20:09] Christina: right. No, but I was just kind of thinking that. Right. But like, and, but, um, she’s a, she’s still alive. She’s 92. Catherine Peterson. Um, good for her. Um, yeah, and no, she, she won, um. I guess like the new barrier or whatever, like for, for Brite Rabia and for for Jacob Pap I loved, and then she won the National Book award twice as well.

[01:20:28] Christina: And then she got like, I mean, she basically got like every book you could like, like every award. Like you, you could kind of get like in her like through throughout the seventies. And she didn’t write that mini books, but like the ones she did write were all like, fucking bangers that will break your heart emotionally and just be like, fuck you up.

[01:20:45] Christina: But, but, but Bridgette, the, which was published in 77, so like, it is, it became a movie and the movie is pretty good. But the movie is, the funny thing about the movie is that, uh, Walden or whoever, like distributed it, they wanted [01:21:00] to kind of sell up the fantasy aspect of, of the whole thing. And there’s not really one.

[01:21:04] Christina: And so imagine a bunch of parents taking their kids to see a book that they think is kind of gonna be like Narnia and having a very different kind of ending,

[01:21:16] Merlin: Right.

[01:21:16] Christina: like a sort of ending that like, you

[01:21:18] Merlin: You think it’s Lord to the Rings, but it’s actually Old Yeller.

[01:21:20] Christina: uh, it’s, it is actually my girl. Uh, it is, is, yeah. That, that, that, that’s the spoiler I’ll give. So like, but yeah, it’s, it’s actually like, like my girl.

[01:21:29] Christina: So, but like, like holy shit. So, um, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. You’re like, oh, this is gonna be this great family fun film. And then you’re like, um, I, I’ve just had my, my like heart ripped outta my stomach. Anyway, that’s, that, that, that, that’s neither here nor there. But, uh. Yeah,

[01:21:49] Jeff: that seems like it’s in both places.

[01:21:52] Christina: Anyway, that was just a weird

[01:21:53] Merlin: but

[01:21:53] Merlin: you, we were talking about

[01:21:55] Christina: yeah, exactly.

[01:21:55] Christina: And, and I was gonna say that, and it made me think that it was kind of the, one of those funny things. ’cause I was like, [01:22:00] God, like that. That’s the sort of like shit that like, holy wow, you know? Anyway,

[01:22:06] Merlin: My lizard died, um, uh, a little bit ago. And um, this is just wildly apropos nothing except of everything. Um, but, um, he died. I buried him, blah, blah, blah. Ah, thanks. But the point is that, you know, I’ve got those, uh, I got, I got a smart home. You know, and like one of the things that’s, that we have done to take care of him is we have an eve power strip that’s got like, it’s really nice.

[01:22:34] Merlin: It’s got 1, 2, 3, you can, like, they’re programmable and, and like, and they give you data on like how much wattage was used. And Eve makes great stuff and I, I love that power strip. I buried the lizard, which is not a euphemism. Um, and I thought, oh, you know, that’s, that’s a nice, that’s a really nice, uh, power strip.

[01:22:53] Merlin: I grabbed one day for his vivarium, I should get that back. And I went and I unplugged his power strip.

[01:22:59] Jeff: Hmm

[01:22:59] Merlin: [01:23:00] the power strip it does his UV light, does his heat lamp and does the rock that he liked to lay on. And for some reason unplugging that power strip made me cry really? Somewhat, um, somewhat uncontrollably, which I didn’t mind.

[01:23:15] Merlin: Like I, I like when emotions come out because I’m okay with being vulnerable, like, all cos but it that, that’s the reason I mention that here is like you don’t know where it’s gonna come from. Yeah, okay. Whatever I got, I’ve got a lizard. People think that’s weird. He’s spiky. Syracuse doesn’t like him. He died.

[01:23:32] Merlin: That was sad. There was a whole lot of sad. There was just a, a big bummer. The way that we found him was, you know, bad and, um, but it was unplugging in addition to those not. Like, you know,

[01:23:43] Brett: Not, not

[01:23:44] Merlin: but in addition, in addition to those taking, unplugging a power strip from the wall, hit some part of my brain. And I have to tell you, it’s a part of my brain.

[01:23:54] Merlin: This is why I, I have no tolerance for most people as human beings. The part of my, I have no problem at all understanding that there’s [01:24:00] a part of my brain, let’s just call it, I don’t know, the, uh, the creative crucible or the, the, the, the humanity engine. But there’s some part of my brain that where humor and and sadness are very close to each other.

[01:24:12] Merlin: What’s, what’s humor humor’s about? Surprise. So it’s kind of a similar feeling to a good joke you didn’t expect or catching yourself doing something that’s funny, by the way, because of how you are and you laugh to yourself and go, God, I’m so funny. I’m such a dingling. It’s just that, that one, I wasn’t laughing with myself.

[01:24:30] Merlin: I was crying with myself. It’s so ironic that me unplugging this smart thing that I’m gonna go and reset and reuse for different things. That that’s what had me feeling this strong emotion. And, uh, can I just say, I’ll just, uh, cover myself with glory here? I don’t think that’s the kind of feeling we encourage ourselves to feel when we’re trying to approach invulnerability.

[01:24:53] Jeff: Mm-hmm.

[01:24:53] Merlin: fact, I think most of us would say that’s the kind of bullshit that we need to get out of our life so we can be strong, like Bolt, [01:25:00] just tossing it out there. But, but that, that’s a Buddhist gif. When you get a little moment that makes you a little sad. ’cause you thought about a book, Christina, I, I would argue there’s a good chance you’re still alive.

[01:25:10] Christina: it’s true, it’s true.

[01:25:11] Jeff: Hmm.

[01:25:12] Christina: That’s a good point. And I, and I think you make a good point too. Like there are those things where like you, you know, yeah. Like we, we put on the, the strong face, we put on the, you know, the, the, the gr and bear it thing. And then you are, um, and, and you, and you maybe even, you think you, you’ve dealt with like a, a thing and then you’re faced with a decision, which seems completely innocuous.

[01:25:30] Christina: You know, you’re unplugging a power cable and then you’re realizing, why am I doing it?

[01:25:34] Merlin: Decide like you’re driving by a dead person’s favorite restaurant for the first time, like whatever. You know, there’s those kinds of things where you’re like, ah, I thought I’d taken care of everything, but I still have feelings.

[01:25:45] Christina: Yep. Which is good because to your point, we, we, we need that otherwise, like we lose our humanity. And I think that’s so important when there’s so many genuinely terrible things happening to like, remind ourselves. Because for me, it’s important for me to do it because. I am, I’m glad that, [01:26:00] like Brett finds comfort in reading anarchist, like stuff that would not provide me any comfort at all.

[01:26:06] Christina: So I wouldn’t bother with it. It would just make me angry. And, and, but, but, but if it provides you comfort or makes you, gives you good things, like I, I, I want people to do like what’s best for them. For me though, like, I am having a really hard time ’cause I’m still in this phase with anything news related where I’m just kind of in a, I don’t wanna look at it.

[01:26:24] Christina: I don’t wanna engage with it. I can’t deal with it. Like I don’t have

[01:26:27] Merlin: so stupid. Everything is, I called it dumb 19, 19 35. It’s like dumb 1935 all over America

[01:26:34] Christina: Yeah, no,

[01:26:35] Merlin: as, it’s as concerning as 1935, just even dumber.

[01:26:38] Christina: agreed. Agreed. And, and, but, but where I, I’m at, and I, and I’m, and in some cases it’s a good thing because I am like protecting myself and I’m like, you know, getting myself to a certain thing, but I’m trying to be careful ’cause like, I don’t wanna become so like nihilistic that I just don’t, you know, that I’m just at a point where I’m like, fuck it, burn it all.

[01:26:56] Christina: I don’t give a shit. We’re gonna be dead anyway. What does it matter? [01:27:00] Like, I don’t wanna become that far removed, but at the same time, I can’t actually find myself to care.

The Emotional Struggle of Engagement

[01:27:05] Christina: Like, I can’t engage because I care too much. It’s one of those things like, you know, I, I think it’s important for us to be able to remind ourselves that there are things we can feel emotion about that like, feel not controllable, but, but feel like, I don’t know, tangible in a way.

[01:27:20] Christina: Whereas everything else, it’s like I have all these feelings, but there’s literally nothing I can do about any of them. And I don’t wanna. Like, it doesn’t do me any good to, to, to, you know, keep up with what’s happening or, or no, not keep up, engage doesn’t

Questioning the Value of Awareness

[01:27:36] Merlin: Well, and like how much did you benefit from learning? There’s three more terrible things today, or a way I put it that’s is a little blunt by design. Um, when you find out about the next horrible thing or the next five horrible things, what will you do differently this morning?

[01:27:49] Christina: Right, right. And, and,

[01:27:51] Merlin: I think is a question we don’t ask ourselves often enough.

[01:27:53] Merlin: We don’t need to be asking that question all the time. There’s nothing we need to be doing all the time except breathing and shitting. But like, [01:28:00] don’t we need to occasionally say, I mean, like for me, ’cause it’s this whole stack for me of like, I think about, you know, cog like, uh, sort of, uh, awareness, like attention leads to, uh, leads to cognition.

[01:28:12] Merlin: You know, you get thinking, thinking leads to decisions, decisions lead to action, and that the music goes around and around.

The Futility of Constant Sadness

[01:28:18] Merlin: I just don’t understand how like, shoveling more of that horror into my face a deliberately very aggressive, uh, let’s just say there’s, there’s a lot to be gained for anybody who like, wants to feel sad right now that the, if you’re in that business of keeping people a little bit sad, this is a good, this is a, a boom economy in c certain ways.

[01:28:39] Merlin: Um, but. Uh, I don’t know.

Philosophical Reflections on Life and Action

[01:28:42] Merlin: I, uh, I, I think we, uh, you know, Kiir Kegar talks about this feeling of wanting to be consumed, you know, by, by, by our, by our angst or by our, our grief for boy or whatever it is, but like, probably grossly misquoting at this point. But like, the idea that like, you’re gonna keep living till you die.[01:29:00]

[01:29:00] Merlin: That’s basically the stakes. And it’s like, you’re not, you’re not gonna live any better by convincing yourself that there’s new things you can do. Nothing about that. And if you can that, that, that, that’s good. May maybe, and if it’s fun, that’s good. I’m not trying to say any given thing. What I am trying to say is, drinking salt water will kill you.

[01:29:19] Merlin: So if you think you’re quenching your thirst with salt water, I think the guy in the black freighter says, you know, in a watchman says, you know, you can drink salt water for like a short period of time and survive, but you don’t wanna be doing that forever. Look how it turned out with him. No spoilers.

The Dangers of Over-Engagement

[01:29:34] Merlin: But, but what I, what I am saying is, uh, sometimes, you know, as smart and as invulnerable as we want to be, we do sometimes very much work at cross purposes with ourselves, with the things we claim that are important or the things that we claim we’re focusing on, or all those different kinds of, like tent pole things that I feel very strongly about.

[01:29:53] Merlin: And I don’t know, I feel, uh, a spirit spiritual kinship with you here, uh, Christina. ’cause I, I, [01:30:00] I, I, I think I feel a similar way. I feel the, the sort of, the, the guilt of like, why haven’t I done more? But hey, you know, this is what y’all wanted.

[01:30:09] Christina: Yep. No, there’s a certain point where

[01:30:10] Merlin: This is what y’all claim you wanted. You beat us. You beat us. So,

[01:30:14] Christina: you, you, you beat us, you beat you, you beat, you beat us real good. Uh, on, on every level. And now this is what it is. And I, I, I, I, you know, I’m not, I’m not, not at that point, like, and I, but, but like, where I worry, and I, and I don’t think it’s, I think it’s okay for to have lasted as long as it lasted and for it to last longer, but like, I don’t want it to get to the point where I’m just like, so completely like, tapped out that like, you know what I mean?

The Importance of a Balanced Approach

[01:30:35] Christina: Like right now, I can’t, I, I can’t engage and I can’t, I can’t pretend to like, uh, you know, be, get upset and get like, overly invested in any of it because I just, I

[01:30:45] Merlin: And then what happened? What happens? The cautionary tale, and then I, we should probably talk about something else, but the cautionary tale then becomes like, okay, so you’ve gotten really good, you’ve gotten a hair trigger about always being able to like, detect and, and uh, and internalize and potentially [01:31:00] integrate the shittiness of the world you’ve gotten.

[01:31:01] Merlin: So one has gotten so efficient at doing that. And when does that stop? When and, and, and put differently, put more saliently. When do you realize that’s just one of your strategies? And as I like to say, and my things I say to myself, one of those things is remember your toolbox. Remember you’ve got a toolbox.

[01:31:20] Merlin: Like that can be one of the things in your toolbox, but you don’t want that to be your whole white panel van for life is just. Just constantly on the edge of, of just diarrhea, diarrheaing yourself with this inability to do anything, and then just getting so efficient at sucking it all in. And it’s like, where, where are you in all of that?

[01:31:42] Merlin: If one could ask, you know,

[01:31:44] Merlin: I don’t know. I’m talking about some having,

Transition to GrAPPtitude

[01:31:47] Brett: Do you guys wanna, do you wanna move on to a GrAPPtitude

[01:31:50] Christina: Yeah,

[01:31:51] Jeff: Yeah. But I, I recommend everybody go listen to, uh, Sammy Davis Jr’s. I’m Gonna Live Until I Die, which is off of the Sammy Davis Jr. Album. The Wham of [01:32:00] Sam.

[01:32:02] Brett: will, will you add that to the show note as

[01:32:04] Jeff: just ki.

[01:32:05] Brett: recommendation?

[01:32:07] Christina: Um, also, also, also, before, before we do that, I,

[01:32:09] Merlin: I kind like my Sammy Davis. I’m sorry. I’m gonna have do the screenshot of this, because this is a pretty good Sammy kind like, hi man, what’s happening? Ka

[01:32:18] Christina: um, uh, Merlin, um, what Elvis book, uh, did, did you get, did you get his Elvis book or his last 24 hours of Elvis? From, from uh, uh,

[01:32:27] Merlin: Oh, uh, it’s, it’s Albert Goldman, circa 80 ish. I think it’s called

[01:32:33] Christina: wrote two. Okay. Yeah. ’cause he wrote two. One was

[01:32:35] Merlin: just the one called Elvis,

[01:32:36] Christina: Okay, got it. Great. ’cause I’m, I’m gonna like buy

[01:32:38] Merlin: I think, I mean, I’m not sure it’s, it’s somewhere in the house. I’m not

[01:32:41] Christina: well, no, no, no, no, no. One was the last 24 hours of Elvis or whatever, and then he wrote like, I

[01:32:45] Merlin: I, you know,

[01:32:46] Christina: and then, then this was one just called Elvis.

[01:32:48] Merlin: I’m a zen master. I’m a zen master buddy. I say get ’em both if you can Find them, get ’em. Get ’em both.

[01:32:55] Christina: For like $7, I’m gonna do it.

[01:32:56] Merlin: Stocking stuffer. Can I just say

[01:32:58] Christina: I, I mean, [01:33:00] look, I

[01:33:00] Merlin: whichever one you like least give to a loved one and now that’s theirs.

[01:33:04] Christina: And you’re like,

[01:33:04] Merlin: They’ll take care of it.

[01:33:05] Christina: please read my trash Pul fiction from, from 40 years ago. Um, uh, even though it’s not fiction from what you say it might be. Um,

[01:33:15] Merlin: Uh, you know, it should be true. Oh, there’s a lot in there. I know. It’s not just the one chapter. It’s also how he had hole in the wall so he could watch the ladies wrestle in their underpants. He had a, he had a heavily mistreated chimp that would throw poop at people. It was very poorly socialized. Also, whatcha even doing with a chimp?

[01:33:29] Merlin: Like step zero, you know?

[01:33:31] Jeff: I mean, I’d

[01:33:32] Merlin: it’s kind of crazy way I masturbate on that.

[01:33:33] Jeff: it’s Spider Monkey. If I had to make a choice,

[01:33:36] Merlin: yeah. Spider Monkey. I remember Richard Pryor bit about that. Anyway, Elvis was a, was a model citizen.

[01:33:42] Christina: no, he was, he was, and, and, uh, and, and, and

[01:33:44] Jeff: said.

[01:33:45] Merlin: quoting Lilo and Stitch. Elvis Presley was a model citizen. I love that movie

[01:33:52] Christina: I do too. That movie’s, God, that movie’s really good. Uh, but yeah, we should do gratitudes.

[01:33:58] Brett: Okay. Who wants to go first? [01:34:00] I’ll start.

[01:34:01] Merlin: Yeah.

Tech Tips and Recommendations

[01:34:01] Brett: I’ll start since I had mine, mine premeditated and the rest of, you’re probably figuring it out on the

[01:34:05] Christina: No, I’ve got mine figured

[01:34:06] Jeff: got mine.

[01:34:07] Christina: go.

[01:34:08] Brett: Um, um, I think Jeff has actually mentioned this one before, but I wanted to talk about super key.

[01:34:14] Jeff: Oh.

[01:34:15] Brett: Um, a cool little utility. Um, it has the ability to make a hyper key, which is when your, your caps lock becomes control shift, alternate and command.

[01:34:27] Brett: But I still use carabiner for that. I find it more seamless to use something closer to hardware level. But what super key does for me is I can press on my keyboard, it’s hyper key and semicolon, so it’s my two pinkies. I hit that combination and a little search bar pops up and I can type and it can find any button, any text, anything on the screen that has letters.

[01:34:55] Brett: And I just type the first few letters of the button I wanna click, and then I hit [01:35:00] return and it clicks that button.

[01:35:02] Merlin: Is it? Is it, is it, you’re flipping on access, not accessibility, but you’re flipping on screen recording

[01:35:06] Brett: both

[01:35:06] Merlin: that enables it.

[01:35:08] Brett: and screen recording and it can find, there’s another one called Whoosh that only does menu items, um, and,

[01:35:17] Merlin: there’s a lot of those that are like command shift, question mark on steroids kind

[01:35:22] Brett: Well, I, I also love Paltro, which it gives you like command shift p

[01:35:28] Merlin: I think that’s on set. I,

[01:35:29] Brett: yeah, it is. Um, and, and Paltro is great for quickly accessing menu items for which I haven’t bothered to memorize keyboard shortcuts.

[01:35:40] Brett: Uh, but super key means that I can access buttons that don’t even have keyboard shortcuts as if, almost as if they had keyboard shortcuts. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. That’s my pick.

[01:35:52] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Um, so I’ll go next. Um, uh, this is, this is a weird one, uh, because I’ve [01:36:00] never had, like, I’ve never, I don’t think I’ve ever picked a Chrome extension as my, my, uh, gude, but I’m going to, uh, so with the new job, I am using, uh, you know, the Chrome web browser, uh, for the majority of what I do, um, I, I still use, you know, some native apps sometimes, but like, I, I, uh, because of of, of software policy stuff, I can’t use an app like Mindstream for mail.

[01:36:22] Christina: I have to use Gmail and pwa. I have to use, you know, other things. Um, and uh, uh, obviously we are completely, uh, all in on, you know, Google Docs and, and all of that stuff. Um, and so as a result I have, and, and I’ve, you know, always had a kind of a struggle with like, you know, how are you managing all of your different windows, um, uh, you know, Chrome tabs.

[01:36:42] Christina: Um, but now it’s like that. But like times 1000, because I probably have a hundred, you know, or not a hundred, but I probably have 10 different windows with, you know, 40 or 50 different tabs at, at any given time. And the frustrating thing can be, uh, is that if you have too many tabs in like a window, then when to the [01:37:00] point, like you can’t see all the tabs and you can’t, like, you know, scroll through the next thing.

[01:37:03] Christina: And obviously you can use keyboard shortcuts to see what’s there, but it can, sometimes you’re just like, I just wanna pull this freaking. Um, you know, tab out of this window and put it in its own thing and kind of start over from, from this point, or just have this one be front most because maybe I’m having a video call here or something else, or, or it’s a document or something else.

[01:37:21] Christina: And, you know, usually you could just kind of, um, you know, grab the, the bar and drag it and whatnot, but I’m like, I needed it keyboard shortcut for this. And so I found this, uh, extension, which is in the Chrome, um, uh, you know, uh, store. Uh, but it’s also on GitHub called tab to Window. And basically you can set up a hot key.

[01:37:40] Christina: Um, in my case I’m using option, but, uh, you, you, you could, you, you know, set it to be whatever you want, where I basically press option X on the tab that I’m in and it will immediately open it into, um, a, a new window, uh, basically. And you can also set it to go to a different display if that’s what you want with a different shortcut.

[01:37:57] Christina: You can also make it, uh, open as a popup so that

[01:37:59] Merlin: [01:38:00] It’s window management, but for a browser,

[01:38:02] Christina: It is, that’s exactly what it is. Is, and, and you can even

[01:38:04] Merlin: Like Moom or something

[01:38:05] Christina: precisely, and you can even set it up like if what you want to, not to resize or to resize, to basically, you know, be exactly like a, like a, you know, a keyboard based Windows manager, but for your browser windows.

[01:38:17] Christina: And for me, this has just been incredibly useful because I have so many of them all the time that I’m very frequently needing to pop one out or move it to some oth other thing. Uh, and, uh, I don’t wanna have to, you know, fuck with my mouse, um, or my track pad. And so just being able to use, you know, keyword shortcuts is, is great.

[01:38:36] Brett: Nice. That’s super cool.

[01:38:38] Merlin: Yeah. I like

[01:38:39] Jeff: awesome.

[01:38:40] Merlin: I always feel like I should spend more time with things like, um. Keyboard maestro and oh my God, I can’t believe I’m saying these words. This is such an indictment. ’cause for years, the whole reason I wouldn’t learn keyboard, my, I wouldn’t open keyboard maestro is I got the big blinking, attractive nuisance light.

[01:38:58] Merlin: Like, don’t make this into your next [01:39:00] quicksilver, where all you do is think about it all day long. Like, you know, I gotta be careful with those kinds of things. With that said, there are times where like, I mean like you, like y’all know how to do stuff in the terminal. Like I just open prompt and like hit it like a chimp.

[01:39:12] Merlin: I don’t know what I’m doing, but like, but you know, but then there are certain kinds of things where I’m like, oh, like in drafts or like, you know, I’ll, I’ll just, like, there’s a little dumb thing I want to fix or I want to keyboard command that works the same between like, it’s just so fast and easy with keyboard, maestro and better touch tool.

[01:39:27] Merlin: Thank you. Thank you, Brett. You’re the one who turned me onto that one. Um, I mean, you can make chords and you can like, you can basically like basically play color my world by Chicago to make something happen on your iPad.

[01:39:37] Christina: Yes.

[01:39:39] Brett: You actually

[01:39:40] Merlin: That’s major

[01:39:40] Brett: do that. ’cause they have key, they have MIDI triggers

[01:39:44] Merlin: Ah,

[01:39:45] Brett: they have MIDI triggers in

[01:39:46] Merlin: Like Willy won, like Willy Wonka. I could finally use that Arturia I’ve never used.

[01:39:52] Merlin: I thought I fixed something and I don’t know what happened. At a point, drafts very intelligently stopped working with text expander and there was a [01:40:00] fix, I feel like I learned about from Dr. Durang. And then one day it went away on iOS and I don’t know, ’cause S-D-A-T-E-I, you know, short date, I’m just constantly typing that for an ISO date.

[01:40:11] Merlin: But like it’s, I, there are times where I’m like, and because I, I’ve been working on trying to figure out what I broke and I’m so embarrassed to ask anybody what it is. ’cause I had done it. I brought all my text expander into I thought keyboard maestro, but maybe I didn’t. And how did that work on iOS and am I drunk?

[01:40:26] Merlin: Like, you know. But, uh, the, what was the point of that? I’m sorry. I we’re still working on my sleep.

[01:40:34] Christina: you were saying you think that you should get more into like some of these tools.

[01:40:38] Merlin: sometimes like I want to go, I need to go in and find out what I did before and I start poking around and then it’s like I start going, Ooh, I didn’t realize there, Ooh, you can have a window. Go do a thing based on when this kind of thing happens. And it’s kind of like me trying to get into stuff with HomeKit and some combination of chat CPT and shortcuts and home where I try to get stuff like turn off the turn off once I plug in my [01:41:00] scooter, turn it off after this long and that kind of stuff.

[01:41:02] Merlin: And like, you just, I, it’s an attractive nuisance. It’s not bad, but like, this is the, the canonical 43 folders, Merlin, you’ve got to watch your ass or this is what you do now.

[01:41:13] Christina: Right?

[01:41:14] Merlin: know what I mean? Like, those apps are so exciting, but like each time I look at ’em to fix something, I notice something else and I go, Hmm.

[01:41:20] Christina: And I, and then, then I’m like, and then, then my A DH ADHD kicks in and I’m like hyper focusing on it. And then I look up and I’m like, it’s been six

[01:41:26] Merlin: I know. Oh, I know, I know. I’ve been tagging every three. Hey, hey, can I give you a hot tip while we’re at it? Uh, really, really dumb. No-brainer. Hot tip. Uh, this is a phrase I’ve used for years. And, uh, well, there’s actually kind of two tips. One tip, as I talked about on my new web blog or blog is that you should, uh, put things where you look for it, not where you think it should go.

[01:41:44] Merlin: And the same goes for

[01:41:46] Jeff: Yes.

[01:41:46] Merlin: Bar. It goes for launch bar, it goes for, it goes for keyboard metric, it goes for all these, all these different, um, kinds of things. So one of the hot tips was to start noticing stuff, uh, that, that, that, that could be in a better location.

[01:41:59] Merlin: And the other [01:42:00] one, I created a list in the reminders app called Mosquito.

[01:42:06] Jeff: hmm

[01:42:06] Merlin: And that the reason is I is a term I used to use and I wrote about this on my stupid goddamn web blog, my old web blog, um, I call Mosquito task, which is like stuff that’s not, this is a very GTD adjacent idea of like, you’ve got projects and you’ve got tasks, and then you know you, ’cause you’ve got context.

[01:42:22] Merlin: Why don’t we work that? So maybe one of those contexts is stuff that I do when I’ve got the house to myself. On a Thursday, like where does that go? Long story short. Anyways, think about that. That’s what’s one and a half tips so far. Think about, uh, the mosquito task in your life. Just like, um, uh, uh, pick a place to put on my pencils.

[01:42:41] Merlin: Like whatever. Just dumb stuff. A lot of it’s little fixes. I created a reminders list called Mosquito

[01:42:47] Merlin: the point is, if you create a list in reminders with whatever the hell you call your stack of stuff, for me it’s mosquito list. I’ve heard Cusa refer to his, whatever it is he does, he won’t talk about it [01:43:00] as his cue. It’s so nice to be able to be wandering around the house, see a nail that needs to be pounded in or removed and say, Hey, dingus.

[01:43:09] Merlin: Um, so of course I still have to think about this. Hey, Dingus, uh, add, fix the nail to my mosquito list.

[01:43:15] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[01:43:16] Merlin: And because of the regressions in, in Siri, I dunno if you all have heard the latest a TP all the way through, but oh my god, it’s, it really is kind of mindboggling that these assistants aren’t as good as they were in 2015.

[01:43:32] Christina: I’m,

[01:43:33] Jeff: incredible.

[01:43:34] Merlin: Just heard it. You just heard me like,

[01:43:36] Christina: Like it’s, it’s awful.

[01:43:38] Merlin: Hey Siri, remind me to call Christina when I arrive at the house in two hours.

[01:43:46] Brett: Clunk, crickets.

[01:43:50] Merlin: are you here? You’re here, aren’t you? Oh, no, lemme guess you’re gonna create a custom playlist for me. ’cause I wanted to see if you were turned on. Oh, I have to. Oh, oh, hang on, hang on. [01:44:00] Oh, I thought our system didn’t work anymore, but then I had to empty the bucket on the D made a fire, so I touched the AirPod and now, now it’s playing Turn on again by Genesis everywhere.

[01:44:10] Merlin: And I

[01:44:10] Jeff: I, I asked it. I asked it to tell me the news, and it read a Wikipedia article about the Jews.

[01:44:16] Merlin: Hey Siri, what month is it?

[01:44:18] Christina: Exactly that. That’s the best one. You it well, can’t tell you.

[01:44:21] Merlin: 22nd, 2025. March

[01:44:24] Jeff: oh,

[01:44:24] Christina: Oh, they

[01:44:25] Merlin: That’s not the Whoa,

[01:44:26] Christina: They, they, they saw, they, they saw the grouper article about what month

[01:44:29] Merlin: Gruber, this is to inform you that actually it’s great at knowing what month it is. If you have a parser that can run on the sound in the air, it could automatically parse that using a script of your own design and that would be able to send that, push that as a push notification.

[01:44:43] Merlin: It would be able to push that right to your device.

[01:44:46] Jeff: duh.

[01:44:47] Merlin: duh. I thought you liked Pearl. Ooh, I’m not angry.

[01:44:53] Brett: speaking of all these apps that we all in our, in our little world, they’re all like easy [01:45:00] mentions. Um, part of the thing I found most frustrating about shadowing one person at work

[01:45:07] Merlin: I can’t imagine

[01:45:08] Jeff: Was that you were shadowing one person

[01:45:10] Merlin: yes, but like somebody who doesn’t know how to do shit, you know how to do it. Must drive

[01:45:13] Brett: yeah, well, so one of the things, part of their job was to reply with these kind of canned replies to different situations. And

[01:45:24] Jeff: Okay.

[01:45:24] Brett: had, they have multiple confluence pages, and I don’t know if you guys have used Confluence, but it is very slow and loading different pages takes forever. And to reply to an email, they would open their browser, go to Confluence, navigate to the page, find that section of the page, copy it, go back to their email program and paste it.

[01:45:53] Brett: And basically it amounted to maybe seven snippets that, that could be [01:46:00] like with like text expander

[01:46:01] Merlin: It would be, it’ll be like having a new key cut every time you needed to get in your house.

[01:46:05] Christina: right.

[01:46:06] Brett: It was so painful. It was so painful. She’s like, now I’ll show you a trick. So this, this,

[01:46:15] Christina: I, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll show you a trick. I got bookmarks. I got a bookmark for all these things to make it

[01:46:21] Merlin: And then I’m clicking, I’m clicking, I’m copying, I’m clicking, I’m pasting. Watch what’s I’m gonna show you a quick way to do this. I’m finding my menu, I’m clicking.

[01:46:31] Brett: it was, it was infuriating. I, I didn’t even, I, I had, at that point, we were an hour in and I had shut up.

[01:46:39] Christina: no,

[01:46:39] Brett: wasn’t gonna te teach her about text expander.

[01:46:42] Christina: No, you’re not. No, no, no. You’re not.

[01:46:43] Brett: this is just my job now. Anyway. It doesn’t

[01:46:46] Christina: Well, right. And, and you’re also like, I’m not gonna get into how like, uh, tech Expander works or even using the built in expansion, you know, on like, uh, you know, on a Mac or, or, or, or on Windows or whatever. I’m not, not gonna bother with it because you are not gonna use it.

[01:46:58] Christina: So, or, or even the [01:47:00] features that like, might be built into like Gmail or whatever app you’re using, like, or Outlook or whatever. I’m assuming you can set up things like that.

[01:47:06] Merlin: People who still don’t know capital A and like Capital and capital O, people who are still just walking around like typing, you know, it’s crazy making.

[01:47:17] Christina: Yeah. No. At a certain point you’re like, okay, I got it. I’m, if this is where our candid things go, I will script this myself, but I’m not gonna bother telling you anything ’cause you’re not gonna use it anyway,

[01:47:26] Brett: Right. Exactly. All right. Who’s left?

[01:47:30] Christina: Jeff.

[01:47:31] Jeff: Christina.

[01:47:32] Christina: No, I did. I

[01:47:32] Jeff: No. You went with the tabs. With the tabs. Merlin

The Value of Control Center Customization

[01:47:35] Merlin: Control center on

[01:47:38] Merlin: iOS, control center on IOS. Um, because now there’s stuff that you can do. Um, you’ve always been able to, I don’t know, you know, I don’t care how long it’s been, how it is, I’m just gonna say words. It’s so neat that you can drag stuff

[01:47:57] Merlin: around, put things where you want,

[01:47:59] Merlin: any [01:48:00]

[01:48:00] Christina: are multiple sections now.

[01:48:01] Brett: Yep,

[01:48:02] Merlin: Well let’s, let’s start with just, this is kind of cool, right? First of all, anything with a camera icon always goes in the upper right, as we know from Nevin Meen, that’s the only place, anything where a camera goes, but you put it wherever you want. But, you know, I started thinking more and more like, uh, well, and I’m just gonna walk ’cause I’m a dumb guy from the Midwest.

[01:48:19] Merlin: I’m just gonna walk you through some dumb guy stuff. One is, hey, you know, I don’t need a lot of the stuff that’s here, which doesn’t matter except in so far as I’m not treating this like a, sorry to use one of my phrases. An active working area like this, to me, this is an area where things are happening.

[01:48:34] Merlin: We don’t put garbage in an active working area. So on some level now, I started thinking about, oh gosh, there’s probably stuff I don’t need in here. Maybe stuff again, stuff that I keep. Anybody ever done this? Keep stuff in your doc. Keep stuff in your menu. You ever have stuff around? ’cause it’s just always been there.

[01:48:50] Merlin: You maybe even don’t know what it is. Not you guys, but some people have done that and that becomes a little bit, you get a little dumb when you stop noticing things like that. So it started out as simple as, [01:49:00] huh, move these around, remove some of these. And then I started adding a few, I changed the size of certain

[01:49:06] Christina: Mm-hmm.

[01:49:08] Merlin: but then just ’cause this works for me, you know, I use things for my stuff.

[01:49:14] Merlin: Um, I added a new item to add something in things easy add, add adds a new, um, in inbox entry, I got another one that’s just a shortcut. That does nothing but take whatever audio is playing and runs it through my AirPods Max. It does one thing. That’s it. Uh, stuff like, you know, low battery, all that kind of stuff.

[01:49:35] Merlin: Here’s a huge one, and this is kind of when it all changed, is that this is a button

[01:49:40] Jeff: Merlin is holding his phone to

[01:49:42] Merlin: for creating a new item in the app, Daum, D-A-Y-T-U-M. And as it happens, date him by the guy. Who’s the guy?

[01:49:50] Jeff: Danny

[01:49:50] Brett: I don’t, I don’t remember.

[01:49:52] Merlin: Dailey.

[01:49:53] Jeff: Duck Datu.

[01:49:53] Merlin: Donald Duck.[01:50:00]

[01:50:00] Brett: I’ll look it up. You continue talking.

[01:50:03] Merlin: Don’t boss me. What was I talking about? Anyways, datum. And so the datum, uh, it’s, it’s a thing for tracking things and there’s items, items have, cat can have categories. They can have attributes. You know, it’s really, really cool. And I use it for when I take medicine, when I take an edible, like whatever. It just goes into their, why does that matter?

[01:50:24] Merlin: I don’t know. It is not worth explaining to you if you don’t already get it. But let’s just say I can export that as a CSV or A-J-S-O-N and integrate it with all of my Apple Health data and do things in chat GPT that you find really annoying. It’s the best. So add something to date ’em. It’s right there.

[01:50:41] Merlin: So, so, so what does that mean? That means my phone is in, its, nothing’s happening position. Nothing. I pull down from the top and now one click, two click. Done.

[01:50:53] Jeff: yeah.

[01:50:53] Merlin: I didn’t unlock the phone overtly. I only got four spots in the dock. That right there. Stop [01:51:00] right there. That is magic. Go in and look at stuff. You, you, this could be, you know how it’s already kind of neat, that spotlight on iOS is a little like, you know, launch Borrower spotlight on a Mac, but like, this would take it even further.

[01:51:11] Merlin: Now, to whomever said that before, I think Christina, the sections, you know, you can now add a button at least on the beta. Sorry, this will probably be in the, in the public soon. But you can add like an ambient music button. That’ll just play a playlist of ambient music. You know what those Hollywood fat cats don’t tell you, you can make that link to any playlist you have.

[01:51:30] Jeff: Oh, nice.

[01:51:32] Merlin: a single button that you associate with, in my case, my getting pumped. I have three getting pumped up playlists, my favorite of which is the studio version of Born Slippy Knucks and a live version from Belgium of Born Slippy. I can put that right here and click it. That’s right there and I’m, I’m almost done.

[01:51:50] Merlin: But the other page stuff, fantastic. So I’ve got a section now lemme just point out though, I don’t know how, how many folks know this When you do that poll, I can’t see this because I’m doing it [01:52:00] backwards. You can go do a long ass poll that will take you to your lower sections. I’m now, you saw what I did?

[01:52:07] Merlin: One poll. I’m in the fourth. I’m in the fourth

[01:52:09] Brett: Oh, wow.

[01:52:10] Christina: and it has like

[01:52:11] Jeff: ah.

[01:52:11] Brett: this.

[01:52:12] Merlin: So if I put, look at my home stuff, right? This is stuff at my house. This is stuff at my O Office.

[01:52:21] Jeff: has done a long

[01:52:22] Merlin: Long pull down that. Right? So take everything about the, the main thing I wanted to tell you is, hey guys, check out control center. It’s really cool. And notice stuff you can put on that first page, but now you can make your own pages.

[01:52:34] Merlin: I know you know that. I know you read nine to five Mac, but what did you do last week to actually operationalize that? Did you take a half a goddamn minute to think about a way you can make that better? Yeah, I know you know it. That in seven bucks will get you a cup of coffee. What the fuck are you doing to make your phone work better?

[01:52:52] Merlin: Put stuff in control center. Use it in long drag.

[01:52:55] Jeff: sure is two. Two. Nickels will make a dime.

[01:52:58] Merlin: Ah, frog add wings. Wouldn’t bump [01:53:00] possess a hopping.

[01:53:00] Jeff: hey,

[01:53:01] Merlin: You got chairs, you gotta dinette set. You got no chairs, you got dick. I asked my wife, she got more sense. I dunno. It’s got yodas

[01:53:06] Jeff: we add eggs, we can have bacon and eggs if we add bacon.

[01:53:10] Merlin: And when there was no, when, when there was no pork, we ate foul. When there was, when there was no foul.

[01:53:16] Brett: Case and Nicholas Felton.

[01:53:18] Merlin: When Nick, that’s the one when there was no foul.

[01:53:21] Merlin: We ate sand, we ate sand, we ate sand. You know it’s a very quotable movie. Is Ra

[01:53:27] Jeff: is that from Raven, Arizona? You know that I just played my

[01:53:29] Merlin: It was a rocky place from a seed could

[01:53:31] Jeff: my seed could not find purchase

[01:53:34] Merlin: I’m, I’m, she got you on a pretty short leash, don’t she? If you don’t breastfeed for Relax, turn to the Rock.

[01:53:45] Jeff: Barren place full of rocks or my seed could not find purchase.

[01:53:49] Brett: right.

[01:53:49] Merlin: Yate Sand. And, and here’s the thing though. You know what else in terms of these little beauties nobody cares about? I love my comfort food on the YouTube. Shut up. I like, I like my comfort. I find between seasons of Task [01:54:00] Master. ’cause that’s my main thing. Y’all should watch out.

[01:54:02] Jeff: you

[01:54:02] Jeff: for

[01:54:02] Merlin: Taskmaster New Zealand.

[01:54:04] Merlin: Oh, did we, we talk, did we, did you watch New Zealand at all? You watch straight one. Oh my God. Um, sometimes you’ll just find the best fucking stuff somebody. I don’t, I never wanna say these things. Somebody created an account

[01:54:19] Jeff: Woo.

[01:54:19] Merlin: and it’s uploaded a fuck ton of old VHS recorded copies of inside the actor studio from the late nineties and early

[01:54:27] Christina: Holy shit. That was my favorite show. I

[01:54:30] Merlin: I know, I know.

[01:54:31] Christina: I loved Bravo

[01:54:32] Merlin: you’d be, you’d be surprised. Yeah, you’d be, so it used to be a and e it was on like, and, and it was, but it’s so funny. And then of course, will Ferrell did a funny character, but only because we all loved the way that guy was. His little like surprises, you know? Would you, were you aware that when you were three years old, you had a scab that was saved by your aunt?

[01:54:48] Merlin: Here’s that scab.

[01:54:49] Christina: he. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I just, I, I just had a realization, and someone else has probably come up with this before, but, but this is the first time this has occurred to me, and I don’t think I’ve heard this hot ones, is [01:55:00] the modern day, um, inside the actor studio.

[01:55:02] Brett: Oh

[01:55:02] Jeff: Ooh.

[01:55:03] Brett: Yeah,

[01:55:03] Merlin: Ah, I like that. That is good. I, the one I wanted to commend you guys to and it

[01:55:08] Brett: that’s actually a really good way to explain hot ones

[01:55:11] Christina: Oh my God. Yes. It’s inside the actor studio with hot wings

[01:55:17] Merlin: Yeah. Instead of, instead of the Proust questionnaire, you got the Apollo sauce. You know what I mean?

[01:55:21] Christina: right. But it’s the same type of thing. Like he does, he does the

[01:55:24] Merlin: I love, I love women, but I deny them my essence. know, I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and in purify all of our precious bodily fluids.

[01:55:39] Jeff: Hmm. Dark

[01:55:40] Brett: Are we, did we just go Dr. Strange Love.

[01:55:45] Merlin: I can look.

[01:55:50] Brett: All right. Jeff, what’s your pick? I,

[01:55:51] Jeff: one. Is that my, oh, sorry. My mic. My control center matches the arc of my thumb,

[01:55:57] Merlin: Yeah.

[01:55:58] Jeff: Um,

[01:55:59] Merlin: I do [01:56:00] that all the time. I’ve started making pages that I just, again, put things not where you think they go, look, I’ve

[01:56:05] Jeff: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[01:56:06] Merlin: doing stuff ’cause that’s where my thumb wants to fall. I’m.

[01:56:09] Jeff: my son thinks I’m fucking crazy, so what the fuck is this? I was like, just go to college. Mine is, it’s funny you brought up datum ’cause mine is the second time I’ve done this, but it’s chronicling, which I started now a year and a half ago. And, and I had tried datum, which I also really like.

[01:56:27] Jeff: Um, and, and for some reason chronicling stuck. That stuff doesn’t stick

[01:56:31] Merlin: that. I like the woman who makes that is so

[01:56:33] Jeff: Yeah, Rebecca Owen, and she’s, she’s, it’s just a single developer. She does a very nice job. She does, uh, it’s a very sort of slow, steady pace of small, meaningful updates. Um, and, and is really just sort of like, just, just, it’s a wonderful, it’s just a very like, you know, humane loving app.

[01:56:50] Jeff: And um, and it allows you, similar to data and you create categories. You create, you know, specific things. You can go in and log when it was, you can, you log the time and then you can make a little note. And the way I’ve [01:57:00] ended up using it most, um, mostly is actually not how I started using it. So I have a, a category that has like live music in IT series or movies, finished some reading.

[01:57:10] Jeff: I didn’t do like a read a book, it’s just I did some reading and then I write what it was. And I have this list that again, I can export as a CSV and the live music, I can go back and just see the shows that somehow I go to live shows again for the first time in forever, even though it hurts my body very badly.

[01:57:24] Jeff: Um, and then I have, you know, I have like these really meaningful journals for me, which is like when I call my dad, which isn’t often as I should call your mother, I make a little note of like just three things we talked about and then I can kind of see that

[01:57:38] Merlin: I cannot endorse this highly enough.

[01:57:40] Jeff: and then when I

[01:57:40] Merlin: is what I call a journal calendar, like anywhere that you can capture something that happened. This is the beauty of the calendar. A calendar tells you you’ve committed to doing something in the future and you’ve already done something in the past.

[01:57:51] Merlin: That’s two benefits of a calendar. Anything that helps you capture that for whatever works for your brain, just start doing it now. It’s not an old [01:58:00] person thing, but it sure doesn’t hurt as you get older.

[01:58:02] Jeff: It’s great and I’ve always been terrible about doing that in my calendar. And this is the first time that I’ve steadily, so I have one that’s for travel and I just say a word about day one, a word about day two and I can go back and remember that. And then, you know, of course I can export it and, and with the TV and series stuff it’s, or the series and movie stuff, it’s super fun ’cause I put that in the chat GBT and just look for like patterns.

[01:58:21] Jeff: I can just say like, you know, how many cinematographers show up more than once in this list or whatever. So I love that app. Really, really love it. I’ve ended up using it, not how I thought I would and this is not the kind of thing that I usually hang onto for this long.

[01:58:33] Jeff: So Rebecca Owen, thank you for your really cool work.

[01:58:37] Brett: Yeah. Rebecca’s done a couple of giveaways now on my blog, and she is a delight to work with. Um, makes great apps.

[01:58:45] Jeff: That’s

[01:58:45] Merlin: you, Rebecca. Thank you, rugamba. Thank you. Anybody who’s out there making things for people in a humane

[01:58:50] Brett: Mm-hmm.

[01:58:51] Jeff: yes. Beautiful.

[01:58:53] Brett: Um, I, I, I’ll save it for another week, but, um, I started using MacWhisper [01:59:00] to

[01:59:00] Jeff: finally added. Yeah, sorry.

[01:59:03] Brett: it can, it can record Zoom meetings

[01:59:05] Merlin: been doing this week.

[01:59:07] Brett: and then it has AI built in. So I can record the Zoom meeting, and then at the end of the Zoom meeting I can have it remind me what the key points were

[01:59:16] Jeff: And it just added speaker recognition if you’re doing

[01:59:18] Merlin: It kind of works. It’s getting

[01:59:20] Jeff: and it kind of works.

[01:59:21] Brett: it, it, it works.

[01:59:22] Brett: Okay.

[01:59:22] Merlin: The dream, the dream of transcribing all of the episodes and sticking in the dingus,

[01:59:27] Christina: We’re almost there.

[01:59:29] Brett: yeah.

[01:59:29] Jeff: So close.

[01:59:30] Brett: All right.

Final Thoughts and Gratitude

[01:59:31] Brett: Well thanks everybody. We did

[01:59:33] Jeff: Yeah, this was a

[01:59:34] Brett: two hours. Two hours. That’s a, that’s a pretty standard Merlin episode for

[01:59:38] Jeff: never moved.

[01:59:38] Christina: the people and thank you Berlin so much for, for spending all your time with us ’cause we love

[01:59:42] Merlin: Oh my gosh. Thank, thank you guys for having me. You’re, you’re so sweet to, to put up with me. It’s really nice to be here.

[01:59:47] Jeff: Great to have you here.

[01:59:49] Brett: All right, well everyone get some sleep.

[01:59:51] Christina: some sleep

[02:00:00]

Brett and Christina dive into a sleepless whirlwind of tech chatter and media binges in this wildly overtired episode. Brett recounts his struggles with insomnia, trazodone, and Gabapentin while lamenting the lack of manic productivity. The pair highlight a futuristic cyberpunk novel and tease an exciting author interview. Together, they traverse the realms of new Macs, Framework desktops, and nostalgic gaming. Rogue Amoeba’s audio software gets a fanfare, and gratitude overflows for essential apps like Audio Hijack and AlDente Pro. Expect deep dives, late-night coding, and lots of tech talk.

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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

LOST and Found

Introduction and Podcast Updates

[00:00:00]

[00:00:04] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. I am joined, as always, by Brett Terpstra. Jeff Severns Guntzel is not with us this week, although we will have him back soon. Brett, what’s going on? We are, we are two weeks in a row. Our podcast is Acting Like a Normal Podcast.

[00:00:20] Christina: How are you?

[00:00:21] Brett: Right, like, and we have sponsors lined up for the foreseeable future, by which I mean like a month, but like this could be, this could be for some period of time, a regular podcast, um, which, you know, we’ve. How long have we been doing this?

[00:00:41] Christina: Like, like 11 or 12 years.

[00:00:44] Brett: Yeah. With, with some extended breaks in there, but, but every once in a while we get into a groove.

[00:00:52] Christina: Hey, look, we were in a, we were on a groove for like two years. We were like on a really good place. We were like in a really good place, but no, we’re, we’re in a groove. Um, [00:01:00] and, uh, and it’s awesome that we have sponsors and we hope we can be more consistent. Um, I don’t know.

[00:01:06] Christina: It’s, it’s good for me to have like routine. So, um, I’m, I’m, I’m glad to be back and recording with you.

Exciting Book Interview Announcement

[00:01:13] Brett: I’m really excited next week. So I, here’s the story and, and I won’t tell the whole story next week because I’ll tell it this week, but I am on these lists for like Penguin and random house, and they send me galley copies of books as if. I’m like a bookstore or a book reviewer or something. And I don’t know how I got on these lists, but yeah, I’ll take free books.

[00:01:40] Brett: I’ll take free, like pre press books. That’s cool. Um, and I got this one called two truths and a lie, and it’s a cyberpunk. Like Gibson ask, not like modern cyberpunk. It’s like Gibson, like Mona Lisa overdrive era, [00:02:00] Gibson style, cyberpunk. And, um, and it’s all, it plays with the idea of like memory and data as currency.

[00:02:09] Brett: And, um, it’s like a queer love story at its heart. And I, I loved it. I loved it. And the agent that sent me the book, um, got, got us an interview with the author. So next week we’ll get to talk to them. And I don’t know if you guys, like you guys got copies, but you’re under no pressure to read them. Cause I’ve read the whole thing twice.

[00:02:34] Brett: So like I can lead the interview, but if you have, like, if you’ve read any of it. Then, then you can chime in on, on plot points and whatnot.

[00:02:44] Christina: Um, so as of this, as of the, the time that, um, uh, we are recording this, I’ve read about half of it and I really actually enjoyed it. So I will, I will have read the whole thing, uh, by next week. Um, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I, look, I, [00:03:00] I, um, I sometimes get sent things randomly, um, I, I used to be on lists, but I haven’t been in a while, and I don’t know how you got on the list, but I’m, like, jealous of, of you for it, um, but one of those things, like, A, if someone’s going to go out of the way, if we’re going to have an author on, I really do try to do the homework and do the assignment, um, first of all, but, but, but B, like, I was actually, like, when you first told us about it, I was like, huh, this actually sounds like something that, and I’m not a huge fiction reader, but I was like, of the fiction, this is the sort of thing that I would, yeah.

[00:03:32] Christina: Read anyway, and so, um, I, I’ve, I’ve really, I’ve really liked it, so, I’m excited to talk to the author about it,

[00:03:40] Brett: it’s good. It’s gritty. The, it was, I think it’s set in LA. It’s underwater. It’s, it’s sinking into the ocean. It’s fun.

[00:03:50] Christina: for sure.

[00:03:50] Brett: It’s dark and, and scary and gritty and fun. Um, all right.

Mental Health Corner: Sleep Struggles

[00:03:57] Brett: So mental health corner. [00:04:00] Um, I, I think it’s perfectly apropos to mention that I am once again getting super shitty sleep, and I don’t know why I’m up to 200 milligrams of trazodone in addition to 1500 milligrams of uh, Gabapentin, and it still only keeps me down for about five or six hours.

[00:04:25] Brett: And that’s some heavy sedation that I’m just like waking up from.

[00:04:30] Christina: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s intense, and then, so, how, how are things going with, like, the Mania stuff?

[00:04:38] Brett: Uh, so here, okay. So the, the trick with trazodone is trazodone has antidepressant properties. Meaning if I were actually manic trazodone would have made me sleep less, but trazodone made me sleep a little bit more. Um, I can’t go any higher for fear [00:05:00] of triggering a manic episode, but my psychiatrist is pretty convinced that whatever is going on now is your more classic insomnia and not mania.

[00:05:12] Brett: So I, I tend to agree. Like I’m not. Well, I am getting up and coding in the early hours of the morning. It’s mostly just because I can’t sleep. Um, and I need something to do with myself and I, I don’t have other outlets, so I code, but it’s not like manic coding. I’m not, I’m not putting out huge new projects every week.

[00:05:39] Brett: I’m just, uh,

[00:05:40] Christina: You’re just tired.

[00:05:42] Brett: Yeah.

[00:05:43] Christina: So how do you feel about that? Like, like, like, like, I know that this mental health corner and not a Christina question hour, but I, I’m, I’m going to like ask questions. So how does that make you feel? Because I know that that’s always been something that you’ve, you’ve been able to get like the productivity that you’ve gotten out of your mania has in [00:06:00] some ways, I think been like, uh, um,

[00:06:04] Brett: Essential to my career. Yes,

[00:06:06] Christina: Well, I was going to say an asset in some ways, but also something like you’ve just come to kind of like learn to like deal with your, your, your life around stuff like that and like, and figure out how to handle it. So when you have the insomnia, which is not accompanied by mania, which is my life, to be honest with you, a lot of the times, not, not lately, but, but historically. How, how, how does, how do you handle that from a mental health perspective? How do you handle that from like a, do I feel, you know, like I’m doing in a perspective, like how, how does that work for you?

[00:06:33] Brett: that is a really good question. Um, I, I don’t, I, I don’t like not sleeping either way. Um, when I’m manic and I’m producing like crazy new things that I it. Hadn’t even thought of two days before and then I have an idea and it just spills out and I bring it to, to like fruition like that’s a great feeling even on zero hours of sleep, [00:07:00] but consistently getting like four to six hours of sleep every night for a period of time just wears me down and slows down like I can’t concentrate.

[00:07:14] Brett: And if I do hyper focus, it’s not like manic hyper focus, it’s, it’s like slow, slow hyper focus. And, and I don’t, I don’t, I don’t care for it. I don’t cotton to it at all. Um, I, I would rather, I would rather deal with three to five days of mania and, and boost my productivity than this like extended drag that I’m going through right now.

[00:07:46] Christina: no. I mean, I think that makes sense. And that, that’s kind of why I asked because, um, and certainly, and, and, and I, I hope that this is, uh, Interpreted the way that it’s intended because I, I don’t mean that I’m, I’m envious of the, the, the mania or, or [00:08:00] the, or the bipolar. Cause I’m definitely not. Um, but, but I have always been slightly envious of like when before now, like that when you’ve had like insomnia, like you’ve actually been able to be like hyperproductive, whereas my insomnia, like is not, um, sometimes I can.

[00:08:16] Christina: I mean, okay. I can use that to read a lot. Um, and I guess I can get some productivity out of that sort of, it depends on what I’m reading, but a lot of times I’m not reading anything of necessarily a value, right? And sometimes it’s not even that sometimes it’s just like, you’re literally, at least for me, I’m literally just like laying there or worse.

[00:08:36] Christina: I’m just like dicking around on the internet and I’m not able to do on my phone. I’m not able to do really get anything of value done. And it sucks.

[00:08:44] Brett: here’s the more existential question behind all of this. Um, when you say of value, do you mean of value as far as your career and kind of a capitalist mentality goes?

[00:08:58] Christina: Um, yes and [00:09:00] no. So yeah, that is definitely part of it. But then there’s also a thing where I’m like, I’m not even necessarily reading like, like what I would call quality literature. Like, you know what I mean? Like, or, or quality anything like I’m going down rabbit holes

[00:09:13] Brett: of like filling time really

[00:09:15] Christina: I’m, I’m going to rabbit holes of internet bullshit that might make for a good anecdote on a podcast episode at some point, because someone needs to know the history of something bizarre and people like, how the hell do you know this?

[00:09:26] Christina: And this is how I know this. It does happen quite a lot and people always ask like, how do you know all this shit? Well, the real answer is that, you know, I have a really good memory, but the, the, the, the real answer is, you know, if I have four hours to kill in a night and I’m just, and I’m not able to sleep, I’m reading stupid shit on the internet or watching stupid videos.

[00:09:46] Christina: And so, And like it to me, I’m like, okay, well, why don’t you watch good television shows? Why don’t you read good like literature? Right. Or, or, or whatever. Um, to say nothing of like doing things for the capitalistic [00:10:00] pursuit, but like, even like in an artistic pursuit, like I, I can’t defend it, you know, but, but, but, but, but part of it is because like, I’m in like this, like. Sometimes, you know, you just can’t sleep and maybe I can like, find my way to like, you know, play games or do something else and, and, and have fun, but sometimes like you’re in this kind of like a few way state where I’m like, I’m not awake and alert enough to do anything that or to focus on anything that would be.

[00:10:24] Christina: Like, good. Um, but I’m, I’m, you know, too, you know, I’m too tired to do that but I’m not tired enough to sleep so I’m just

[00:10:32] Brett: yeah, so you consume trash yeah, I

[00:10:36] Christina: So, yeah.

Media Consumption and Mental Health

[00:10:37] Brett: like I don’t I don’t watch TV in the wee hours of the morning, but When I’m up at three by like seven at night, I’m a vegetable and like I’ll turn on the TV and I just watched all of 30 rock, um, beginning to end in the course of like two weeks. And yeah, it’s funny. It’s, [00:11:00] it’s witty.

[00:11:00] Brett: It’s, It’s essentially garbage. Like it’s all in all, it’s a pretty vapid show.

[00:11:09] Christina: Yeah, I mean

[00:11:10] Brett: I love it. I’m not, I’m not dissing it. Like it was, it was fun. And as soon as it was over, I missed it. And like every night I’m like, Oh, I miss 30 rock. Cause that, it takes me, it takes me about a week to get over finishing a show.

[00:11:26] Brett: Just like finishing a book. Um, takes me a week to like, let go of. That kind of comfort zone I had hit with whatever media I was consuming. Um, but I’ve started lost and this is still mental health corner, but I’ve started, like I found lost infinitely frustrating and very disappointing the first time I saw it.

[00:11:51] Christina: Yeah. Now,

[00:11:51] Brett: I haven’t.

[00:11:53] Christina: did, did you watch it? Was that like 20 years ago?

[00:11:55] Brett: When it was on,

[00:11:56] Christina: Okay. Okay.

[00:11:57] Brett: And, and I haven’t watched [00:12:00] it since then. Um, so now I’m going at it with like, fresh eyes, and I assume I’m still gonna be disappointed. I am, I am prepared for that.

[00:12:11] Christina: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Brett: I do remember it being a really fun ride up until then.

[00:12:16] Christina: well, uh, and, and, and, and I know this is still a mental health corner, but like this is, this is sort of interesting. So show that I’ve been watching, um, a lot that, that came back a few weeks ago. Is, and I don’t know, I can’t remember if we’ve talked about it or not, is uh, is Yellow Jackets.

[00:12:30] Christina: Um,

[00:12:31] Brett: yeah, we have talked about it. I haven’t seen it though.

[00:12:34] Christina: Okay, so it’s back, um, on Paramount and like the, the first five episodes have aired, so like half the season has aired. And some people are pretty meh on it, and some people like it. I like this season so far more than I liked season two, but, But I, I’ve had to go into this show, especially like there was, because of the writer’s strike and the actor’s strike, there was like, it’s basically been two years since it’s been on.

[00:12:57] Christina: And so, like, a lot of fans have had a [00:13:00] lot of time, uh, to think about the show, and it’s very clear in my opinion. That the fans have put a lot more thought into the show than the writers have and I don’t mean that as a slight against the writers, but the writers made the disservice, I think, of telling everybody, well, it’s kind of like Lost, but, but unlike Lost, we have a whole five year game plan.

[00:13:21] Christina: We have everything figured out. And as soon as they said that the first season, I was like, you’re fucking liars. fucking liars because that’s exactly what Lost said. That is, that is exactly what Damon Lindelof said and J. J. Abrams. They’re like, we had the whole thing planned out. They did not have it planned out, reader.

[00:13:36] Christina: They did not. And so, uh, I, uh, I, I already was a little bit hesitant on that. And then the decisions they’re making on Yellowjacket, some of them I think are, are good. Some of them are, are questionable. But, but it’s, it’s having kind of those Lost vibes to the point where I’m like, okay, this could go either way.

[00:13:54] Christina: But, and I really wanted to get a fourth season, but I already feel like the, the, the feedback from [00:14:00] some of the normies on Reddit, um, not the lesbians on Twitter, um, to very different demographics. The lesbians on Twitter are having the time of their lives. The normies on Reddit are not. Um, but like, and, and, and, and the, the, the people in Tik Tok have never watched television before and don’t understand, um, you know, the, the whole point of an antihero, I digress, but like, but like, but it’s definitely getting into that lost vein where you’re like, okay, the right is really good.

[00:14:24] Christina: But I’m, I’m having almost like lost PTSD because I’m like, yeah, it’s really good until it’s not. Game of Thrones was kind of like that too, right? Like, like Game of Thrones was, was I think in some ways even more disappointing than Lost because like it was going so well for so long and then we were just like, what the fuck, you guys?

[00:14:40] Brett: Right. Um, my side project, I watched the first couple episodes of lost and then thought, what happened to these actors? Um, and I started like, I am D being and obviously, eventually, and Lily went on to like, be the wasp in Ant Man and the Wasp. [00:15:00] Um, uh, Sawyer went on to He has an, I think it’s on HBO,

[00:15:06] Christina: Mm hmm.

[00:15:07] Brett: uh, something called, well, he did colony

[00:15:10] Christina: Yeah.

[00:15:10] Brett: And Hurley is now in an HBO show called the bookie.

[00:15:17] Christina: Yeah. Um, Jack has had some legal problems, like, well, they’ve all had

[00:15:21] Brett: Really?

[00:15:22] Christina: I, I don’t think anything was proven, but he has not in May 2012, his lo this is from Wikipedia, so I’m just reading from Wikipedia here. His Lost co star Dominic Monaghan tweeted about Fox, he beats women, not isolated incidents, often.

[00:15:36] Brett: Jesus Christ. Okay.

[00:15:38] Christina: Uh, so,

[00:15:39] Brett: going to taint my viewing of this show.

[00:15:42] Christina: I mean, and who knows, he was never charged with anything, and, and, uh, but he has not done anything since, uh, well, he was in six episodes of a thing called Caught, but like, basically, this is why he hasn’t done

[00:15:55] Brett: caught to my list because caught looked, caught looked interesting and I had never [00:16:00] heard of it when I was. It’s filtering through these IMDB

[00:16:02] Christina: I’ve never heard of a side. This is Australian. Um,

[00:16:06] Brett: is a woman beater, I don’t feel a need to follow his

[00:16:09] Christina: I mean, I don’t know if he’s a woman beater or not. I know that these are allegations, so I, these are allegations, so, so, you’d never, like, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. Um,

[00:16:21] Brett: will quote unquote do my own research,

[00:16:24] Christina: yeah, do, yeah, but, but I was gonna say,

[00:16:25] Brett: does taint things.

[00:16:26] Christina: well, I mean, look, that whole cast, if you were, I don’t, if you probably don’t remember this, um, but, because you didn’t care about things like this, but I did, like, when it was airing, because they filmed on Hawaii.

[00:16:37] Christina: And all those actors got fucking shit faced all the time and got popped for DUIs. And like, like there was like one season, like, like four of them got arrested. Like Michelle Rodriguez, I got like, I think she had to actually do jail time, like in Los Angeles for like a day. And then they like released her because they were like, I think that she was too popular, frankly, um, in, in like the, the, the, the county jail in LA, they were like, [00:17:00] this isn’t going to work.

[00:17:01] Christina: But, um, but honestly, the, that’s the one from Lost who’s had like the, Most successful career has been, uh, Michelle Rodriguez, right? Like it was without a doubt.

[00:17:11] Brett: she was even on it. She’s not there at the beginning.

[00:17:13] Christina: she’s not. She comes in in season two and she’s not in it the whole time. Um, and I would say, um, um, uh, what’s his face? Um, uh, uh, he’s, uh, he’s Nigerian.

[00:17:23] Christina: Um, I believe, um, uh, uh, well, he’s English, but, but I think like, but his name is, is, is, is Nigerian. Um, he was, uh, uh, Mr. Echo. Um, he’s

[00:17:34] Brett: don’t. Yeah. I haven’t gotten that far. I don’t remember this.

[00:17:37] Christina: Yeah, he was in a lot of, yeah, because there were multiple members, uh, from the, the, the series Oz who were actors on it. And, and those, and those people have. All gone on to like continue to work, but, but, uh, but yeah, but that’s, that’s a fun thing for your, where are they now?

[00:17:53] Brett: While we’re on a slight media diversion

[00:17:56] Christina: Yes.

[00:17:58] Brett: are you watching Severance?

[00:17:59] Christina: [00:18:00] Yes.

[00:18:01] Brett: Do you think that they have figured out where they’re going?

[00:18:09] Christina: Yes. I, I, I feel

[00:18:11] Brett: need, I need them to

[00:18:12] Christina: I, I, I, I actually, I, okay, I know this seems weird. I feel like I trust Ben Stiller.

[00:18:19] Brett: That’s not weird. Ben Stiller’s actually kind of weirdly a genius.

[00:18:25] Christina: Yeah, no, he, he, he really is like, he’s, he’s a good

[00:18:28] Brett: I mean, I say weirdly because we’re talking about Zoolander

[00:18:32] Christina: Right, but we are, but, but also like, I think he, he hits like kind of highbrow, lowbrow, but also like he did like, he directed Reality Bites, which, No one remembers, right, um, that he was the one who directed that. The Ben Stiller Show was fantastic. Cable Guy was a weird movie. And it was probably not the right movie to come out of that time because that was when Jim Carrey was peak Jim Carrey and then you release this really weird, black, dark comedy that is not at all what you expect from a Jim [00:19:00] Carrey movie in 1997 and it, and it doesn’t do super well, but it’s an interesting film, right?

[00:19:04] Christina: Like, uh, Zoolander is Ridiculous like other things ridiculous, but then you have like Tropic Thunder, which is one of the best movies

[00:19:12] Brett: yeah. I just watched Tropic Thunder a couple weeks ago. It

[00:19:15] Christina: one of the best movies of of of of the 20 of the 21st century. I will fucking say it genuinely I think Tropic Thunder is one. I think Robert Downey jr’s performance.

[00:19:24] Christina: I think Tom Cruise’s performance Like I think the whole thing like works so he’s a weirdo he’s funny, but he’s also like very like smart and cerebral and So, I don’t know, I, I, weirdly, I, I feel like I trust, I trust, um, Ben

[00:19:40] Brett: No, I really want to believe that. Um, Like, it keeps, they’re asking a lot of questions still, the way Lost was, like, Lost was just constantly asking questions, and then occasionally answering one, um, and I feel like Severance is asking a lot of questions, like, [00:20:00] fucking goats, right? Like, Or is this ever going to make sense?

[00:20:04] Brett: Are we going to, is this going to be a polar bear situation? Um, like, are we gonna, are we going to get some kind of satisfaction on the goats? Um, like just things like that worry me, but like the fact that they, they do have like a great set of writers. Um. And while every episode tends to be directed by someone different, um, they do seem to be following a script, uh, you know, to some extent.

[00:20:36] Christina: Well, I, I, well, here’s, here’s what’s interesting, um, and, uh, uh, ah, fuck it, I’ll use this as part of my mental health corner because I’ve been self, um, medicating with, like, media. Um, so, on Fridays, Separants and Yellow Jackets come out, and, and, like, I enjoy them both, but, like, Yellow Jackets, The first season I would have put in the closer to like prestige TV category and I would have [00:21:00] been like this is a show that like is kind of a bonkers premise.

[00:21:03] Christina: And so the premise for anybody who is unfamiliar is that in 1996, like a, uh, like a high school girls soccer team is on their way to from New Jersey is on their way to the national competition in Seattle and they’re playing crashes. In the middle of the Canadian wilderness, and they have to deal with it.

[00:21:21] Christina: And it’s kind of like a female Lord of the flies. And then at the same time, 25 years later in 2021, um, which now it’s 2025, but like that timeline has progressed much more slowly. So we don’t really know what year it is and in the future, but 25 years later. Some of the, the survivors are like living their lives and are trying to, to deal with things when, when people come back and are like reminding us, it’s like, this is what you did and any, and then more, more things to reveal and kind of like a, a, a dual timeline perspective.

[00:21:50] Christina: And the first season I thought was. Just, and I still stand by, I thought it was like incredible television, like incredibly, incredibly well done. And, and I would put it like in the, the [00:22:00] prestige, light prestige category, right? Like, not the highs of like the mid 2010s TV, but like certainly really, really good.

[00:22:07] Christina: Like, like not succession, but like a step above what else was on. And it was nominated for a number of Emmys and, and whatnot. Season 2 comes out. And I felt like they listened to Reddit too much and made some alterations and I didn’t really like some of the changes they made. I didn’t hate it. I, I, I, at all.

[00:22:24] Christina: Um, but, um, you know, I think that there were, there were definitely signs at that point that I was like, you did not plan out the things that you’d planned out. Like, it was very clear to me that they, you know, ret, they, they, they retconned certain things. Like, they hadn’t thought about stuff as much as, as other shows maybe, you know, do.

[00:22:41] Christina: And then season three, you know, coming back after like kind of a two year hiatus. Um, the, the, I still enjoy the show, but at this point it’s much more camp for me. Um, well, at least the, the, the modern timeline is that the, um, the, the, what’s happening to like the girls, like in the woods, like I still, I feel like that at this point, I feel like it’s two different shows, [00:23:00] but anyway, my point on this is, is that severance to me feels like, you know, white Lotus succession, like prior, like, like, like high end, like good prestige television.

[00:23:10] Christina: Like

[00:23:10] Brett: Or even like Breaking

[00:23:11] Christina: Breaking Bad, well, completely, right? Breaking Bad, Mad Men, like, like, like, you know, The Sopranos, like, you know, when you think of, like, high quality television, like, Severance, I think, is gonna win every single Emmy this year, like, it is not even gonna be close, it’s gonna showgun the whole fucking thing.

[00:23:25] Christina: Oh, yeah, it’s been crazy, right? The, the cinematography, like, every aspect of the show, like, it is, this is, this is the new succession in terms of, like, just, everybody else needs to just go home, because what are you even doing, right? And it’s not that there aren’t other good shows, it’s just, like, Nothing else is going to even compete with this.

[00:23:41] Christina: Right. So, um, whereas like yellow jackets, it’s like fallen to me to be more like, I really love it, but it’s like, it’s like my trash, like a little bit like, like, like, like kind of fun. And it’s not trash. It’s just not that, that level. Right. Whereas I think at least right now, and [00:24:00] it could falter, but I feel like, you know, season two severs has really stepped things up.

[00:24:05] Christina: And as long as they don’t, um, Like, I don’t know. I think that if they keep it to, I think that if they have like a set idea of, of what they’re going to do and they stick to it and they don’t try to overextend the arc of the show. That’s my only fear, right? Is that Apple or somebody is going to be like, Oh, let’s do more seasons of this.

[00:24:28] Christina: And it’s like, no, you got it. You got to end things up. Right? Like, I know this is like the

[00:24:33] Brett: it’s a show that has much like, like Breaking Bad or, or any of these,

[00:24:39] Christina: succession. Yeah. Like it has an

[00:24:41] Brett: like, yeah, they have, uh, they have an arc and, and the arc ends. And if you try, if you try to extend it beyond that, then you’re in no man’s territory and you end up with, uh, Um, and yeah, I really I want to see it come. I wanted to be satisfied.

[00:24:59] Brett: I want [00:25:00] whatever happens. I don’t know, season three, four or five if it makes it that long. Um, or if or if the arc takes that

[00:25:08] Christina: Yeah, but if it takes that

[00:25:09] Brett: I just wanted to be satisfied.

[00:25:11] Christina: no and and that’s what I’m hoping I’m hoping that like the people making it will do like Because and honestly, I think that’s what Breaking Bad did really well, like they had an arc, um, and, and I think that that was when Succession did amazingly, like they had four seasons, and you know that HBO wanted that, you know that they wanted that to go longer, um, because it won every award, and it was, you know, a huge water cooler kind of show, everybody was talking about it, it was really good, uh, and they were like, no, this, this is how this ends, and it, and it ended Perfectly.

[00:25:41] Christina: Um, and, and that’s so satisfying. So I would rather have less, like, if you’re not going to be able to do it right, like with the show, like severance, right? Like, um, and, and it’s interesting because, uh, we talked about this, um, uh, over the weekend, like the, like the, the, the New York times like did like this big, you know, kind of profile of like the, the, the bell [00:26:00] labs buildings, you know, that they like based, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, the looks on and whatnot.

[00:26:05] Christina: And like, it’s. You know, it’s definitely like, it’s the most streamed show I think of, of this, um, this year right now, like it’s, it’s a huge hit. So I hope that, I hope that they have it more under control than, I mean, look, Lost, in fairness to them, they had to do 22 episodes. And, and, and, and ABC was just like pushing the mystery and it was kind of like, um, You know, it was, it was unfortunate because it was originally compared to Twin Peaks, uh, which is the original, like, Burn, you know, F.

[00:26:37] Christina: A. S. T. and Burnout mystery show. And Twin Peaks had the same problem, from what I recall. I was much too young when it originally aired, but like, it was this Genuinely like global fucking phenomenon and only lasted two seasons because David Lynch didn’t really have maybe it all figured out I think he did like he eventually got it right when they had the movie and then really I think where it crystallized was the, [00:27:00] the, um, Twin Peaks Return the Showtime series, which I thought was like a really Great, like come back in a way.

[00:27:07] Christina: Cause I was like, okay, you, you tied everything up and you actually did like make this whole thing work, but most people don’t have, you know, 25 years to, to, to, to, to get through that. Right. So, so, you know, anyway.

[00:27:25] Brett: All right. Well, that’s my mental health. Is that your mental

[00:27:28] Christina: Yeah. Honestly, honestly, I think that’s also my mental health. Cause I’ve been, I don’t really have anything to add since the last time we talked. Um, except, uh, yeah, I’ve been like self caring with, with, with media. So, um, there we go.

[00:27:40] Brett: Yeah. I, I feel like that’s, that me too. Um, do

Sponsor: Incogni

[00:27:44] Christina: actually, on that note, I was going to say, um, since we mentioned we have sponsors, can we go ahead and do our first, uh, sponsor

[00:27:49] Brett: I was just going to ask you if you would like to do the incogni read.

[00:27:53] Christina: Absolutely. This episode is sponsored by Incogni, a cutting edge service designed to safeguard your personal [00:28:00] data. So did you know that data brokers collect and sell your sensitive personal information? Because they do. That’s one of the reasons why you get phone calls and, and, you know, from, from, uh, random numbers and, and requests from people who know things that they shouldn’t.

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[00:28:48] Christina: And this seamless process ensures that your information is continuously monitored and it stays off the market. And so this significantly reduces your Uh, spam scams and identity [00:29:00] theft. I’ve been using, I know Brett has been using incognito for a couple of years. Uh, I’ve been using it for a few weeks and I have to say as someone who’s gone through the process of manually.

[00:29:10] Christina: Trying to submit, um, you know, these, these claims to data brokers. This is way easier. And I’ve been impressed with like how much stuff they found and how much they’ve been able to clear out. And like, this is very good. Uh, and I know Brett mentioned, uh, last time that like you’ve received fewer spam calls.

[00:29:28] Christina: I have too. Um, and, and I, and I don’t, you know, I don’t know if that’s because, uh, I’ve been, you know, like Verizon or somebody has some sort of list or what, but like. I don’t know how to end up like long term data to say it’s incognito, but it’s definitely decreased, which is really good because that’s one of the main things that happens.

[00:29:46] Christina: It gets your phone number and I’ve had the same phone number for over 20 years. And so. You know, it’s associated with me. And so, you know, uh, the, the, the fewer like random calls, like you had, you owe something to the IRS or you, [00:30:00] you know, have like this outstanding car loan or, or whatever you get the better, because those things can really prey on people.

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Tech Updates: Mark and Envy Ultra

[00:31:03] Brett: Very well done. Nice job. Um, I’m going to save our second, um, our second sponsor for closer to our gratitude segment because it’s going to tie in really well there. Um, so. Real quick, this doesn’t have to be a big segment. I, I put out a new version of Mark this week, which is the first time in it’s, it’s been at least a year since I’ve released an update.

[00:31:33] Brett: And I finally, I put out a version that can now, so one of the big requests was incorporating mermaid, uh, mermaid. js, which lets you write diagrams in Markdown

[00:31:48] Christina: and, and that’s been supported by, by, uh, the official GitHub flavored Markdown on GitHub for, I think, two years now. Yeah.

[00:31:54] Brett: yeah. So, so instead of just adding mermaid, I decided to [00:32:00] add, um, the capability to. Add your own javascripts from a CDN from a local file or from just embedded raw text in, uh, an entry field. And so, and then you can add hooks that will update whatever library you add. It can update it every time the page refreshes because Mark doesn’t do a page.

[00:32:28] Brett: Full page refresh. Uh, when it detects a change in the file, it only updates the part of the page, a part of the display that was actually modified. Um, so this, this allows you to add something like mermaid and then have it automatically update every time you make a change to the file. Um, and it’s going to open the door to solving dozen support requests in one fell swoop.

[00:32:55] Brett: And then the other request that I. Just, I don’t [00:33:00] know why this is such a big deal now, but there’s this. I think it’s from Common Mark, this syntax where you put two equal signs on either side of a block of text and it highlights it. Um, and it works in bear. It works. I think it works in obsidian. Um, it, it just became this like accepted standard.

[00:33:23] Brett: And suddenly I was getting all of these customer complaints that like, I just wasted 14 because all I needed to do is display my highlight. And, and I’m like, this isn’t part of markdown. Uh, like this isn’t, this isn’t part of any official spec. So cut me some slack, but I went ahead and I just figured out, I added support for equals equals marks and.

[00:33:53] Brett: Tilde tilde, um, deletion and single tilde [00:34:00] underscores the single tilde underscores you can enable separately because those conflict with multi markdown subscript.

[00:34:08] Christina: right. That’s what I was recall. That’s what I was remembering. Cause I remember like multi Markdown, like does yeah. Subscript differently.

[00:34:14] Brett: yeah, so, so you have the option to override multi markdown handling of tildes, um,

[00:34:22] Christina: This is why this is, well, that’s awesome. I was going to say, so. Like, I know that like, cause like, cause it’s common Mark, even are people even actively still like adding to that spec or, or was this one of those things that just a lot of people, I looked, it looks like the last time they updated anything on the spec was 2024, but, um, or, or, but, or, or what you, or, or, or what you are seeing is that like, yeah, somebody somewhere added some sort of.

[00:34:51] Christina: Common thing, um, whether it was part of a spec or not and becomes adopted and then because it’s not part of any of the official forks, like it’s hard for, you [00:35:00] know, people like yourself, if you are supporting a flavor of something to be like, okay, well, I don’t even know that I’m supposed to do this.

[00:35:07] Brett: the beauty of marked is. Okay, so it’s a huge glaring hole and benefit at the same time that mark can work with whatever processor you want it to, um, it has. Multi Markdown and GitHub Flavor Markdown built in, but you can extend that to work with Common Mark. I’ve written custom processors that handle all of Bear’s syntax.

[00:35:37] Brett: Um, uh, Obsidian callout formatting. Like you can make it work with all of that if you’re willing to kind of get into the. nitty gritty a little bit. Um, and I don’t, I, I don’t know where all of these people who want the equals equals highlighting necessarily are coming [00:36:00] from, or if they’re even coming from like the same place.

[00:36:04] Brett: I do know, like I’ve been really into Devon think lately and you can highlight texts in Devon think using. Critic markup syntax for highlights, which is curly bracket or equals equals and then equals equals curly bracket. Um, and that will give you like a markdown annotation, which is, it’s perfect. It’s great.

[00:36:28] Brett: I love it. Um, but it’s. It’s different. Like everyone seems to have a different implementation. I wish critic markup had gotten more widely used personally,

[00:36:41] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say it’s hard because like, I mean, and this is, I mean, I guess this was the initial idea behind, you know, Common Mark, which, which I think was, was kind of hurt by its, uh, initial, uh, name, um, and, uh, and, and, and that whole thing, um, which we don’t need to [00:37:00] relitigate, um, which was a bad move, but like, it, it, it is one of those things where like, You know, you had this, this syntax, which was, it was just incredibly popular and, and like so successful because of its simplicity, because it was literally designed for one thing.

[00:37:13] Christina: And then as everybody has started to expand into areas, like if we’re being honest, like highlighting is not really a thing that you should necessarily be wanting from. A tool called Markdown. Right. But like, that doesn’t mean you couldn’t have a different thing that uses a similar spec that could do that.

[00:37:29] Christina: Right. But like, as everybody’s extended this stuff, it makes it really hard for people like you who are trying to adhere to a spec. And, and, and yeah, you can bring your own processor. But even in that case, like you would need to know, like, for something like highlighting or something, which is different, you would need to like, have a way of rendering that.

[00:37:44] Christina: Um, beyond just like whatever, you know, processor they’re, they’re, they’re using so that you can display it, you know, correctly in the app. Like you, you need to still be aware of like, okay, well, what, what, what things are out there and is there something else [00:38:00] I need to support? But that’s awesome that you, that you brought it.

[00:38:02] Christina: Um, and, uh. And the bring your own JavaScript, uh, thing, um, seems really cool too.

[00:38:09] Brett: It, it, it should prove useful. Um, I don’t think. I don’t think the vast majority of Mark users will need it, but man, if I lose my job, I’m switching Mark to subscription. Um, and I’ll lose a lot of customers. Um, I have, I have customers that I’ve had for 15 years now, um, that have never paid a dime after their initial purchase back when Mark costs like 4

[00:38:36] Christina: Right. No, totally.

[00:38:37] Brett: I still support them and I’ll lose a bunch of them if I switch to subscription, but I think there’s.

[00:38:43] Brett: It still makes a couple grand a month, um, in sales. And I think if I could turn that into more recurring revenue, I could, I

[00:38:52] Christina: I, I, I, I think if you could do like a three or four dollar a month subscription, you know? Um, as well as an annual plan that might be like a [00:39:00] discounted thing, like, I, I

[00:39:01] Brett: Three dollars, 3 a month. If I, if I got 20 percent of my current user base to switch to 3 a month, I could, I could actually probably quit my job. I

[00:39:14] Christina: I feel like,

[00:39:15] Brett: cut back, but I could survive.

[00:39:17] Christina: right, but, but, but I feel like, well, and not only that, but you might even be able to like dedicate like more resources towards upkeep, right? Like if you were able to do it that way, like if that became like

[00:39:27] Brett: Well, and that like with envy ultra, we’re definitely going subscription. Um, like that’s been built in from

[00:39:35] Christina: From the beginning. Yes.

[00:39:36] Brett: and that’s part of what’s holding up release right now is getting fucking store kit version one to function properly, um,

[00:39:45] Christina: are going to go in the app store.

[00:39:47] Brett: Yeah, our, our initial release will be app store and then hopefully soon followed by a direct, uh, probably.

[00:39:57] Brett: Well, so set up is [00:40:00] working on a store where they can sell individual licenses that don’t require a set up subscription. Uh, so they’re looking at kind of taking a piece of the pie from paddle, uh, from, uh, spring, whatever. What’s it? Something spring?

[00:40:20] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Something spring. Yeah. I, I, I know what you’re talking about. Um, uh, yeah. I guess it.

[00:40:26] Brett: All these, yeah, all these, like,

[00:40:28] Christina: Koji’s dead. Uh, uh, it’s, it’s

[00:40:31] Brett: Koji something else now.

[00:40:33] Christina: um, yeah. Um, but that, that, that is now that domain is now, uh, um, search engine, but it was, or it was cakey,

[00:40:40] Brett: Okay, that’s what I was

[00:40:41] Christina: but, yeah, but yeah, now, now it’s a search engine.

[00:40:43] Christina: They just bought the domain, but yeah, that’s dead. Digital river got, um, uh, shut down spring. I know what you’re talking about, but like paddle is obviously one of the big ones for, um, uh, and then what’s the other one other than paddle? Um,

[00:40:59] Brett: I, [00:41:00] I’m blanking on

[00:41:01] Christina: I am too because I can,

[00:41:02] Brett: one that’s been around longer than paddle.

[00:41:04] Christina: Yeah. I was going to say, cause it’s one that I have like a ton of, uh, um, stuff with. Um, so yeah.

[00:41:11] Brett: Yeah.

Exploring Setapp’s Developer-Centric Approach

[00:41:11] Brett: So set up is looking to take a piece of that pie. Um, and honestly, if they, they’ve been like, they’ve had zoom calls with every developer on set up to talk about what they would want to see from that kind of store. And they’re taking all of that feedback and trying to make something that is actually good for developers, uh, which is pretty exciting.

[00:41:37] Brett: Um, not that paddle is bad. I, I have, I have enjoyed using paddle and I like purchasing through paddle. Like it’s very seamless. It works great. Um, all of my licenses are easy to retrieve. Um, I enjoy paddle, but if. If set up can do the same thing and I also want to sell through set up, [00:42:00] then it becomes my one stop shop and that’s where I’m going to, that’s where I’m going to publish software.

[00:42:06] Christina: And it was fast spring. It was fast spring. We

[00:42:08] Brett: fast spring. Yeah, that’s that, that was, that was the one.

Subscription Models and Lifetime Licenses

[00:42:12] Brett: Um, so anyway, like I definitely with, uh, NB ultra subscription for sure. We’re looking at, you know, basically. 36 a year, um, for a full license. And then, uh, uh, an unlock price that is equivalent to maybe three to five years worth of free updates. Um, and we’re going to call it a lifetime license, but.

[00:42:41] Brett: You know, after five years, we might release a whole, like major upgrade that requires payment. Well, you know, the way software used to work.

[00:42:51] Christina: Yeah, exactly. The way, the way it used to be. Um, and, and gumroad, gumroad was the one I was trying to

[00:42:55] Brett: Yes. Yes. Okay. Gumroad is not as old as paddle,[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Christina: I was going to say gumroad is no, is newer than paddle, but it’s been, I I’ve used that one more in recent years and I use at least as an end user, I have more

[00:43:07] Brett: what I like about Gumroad is they make it really easy to do pay what you want or pay what you can kind of pricing. Um, and I like when I go to buy a piece of software that the developer has said, this is. 3, but they give me an empty field and, and I can say, no, this is where five bucks, this is where six bucks,

[00:43:30] Christina: and I’ve definitely done that.

[00:43:32] Brett: Yeah. Me too. Like I almost always up upsell myself on those because I can afford it. And, and I know what it’s like to put out a truly useful piece of software that gets undervalued and, or undervalues their own.

[00:43:50] Christina: Mm hmm. Totally.

[00:43:52] Brett: I’ll help

[00:43:52] Christina: Yeah. No, I, I, no, I, I vibe with that too. So yeah, I’m glad that Setapp is, is getting into that, um, space because I think, [00:44:00] A, that’s a great opportunity for them. I think the subscription stuff is great, but There are times when you’re like, no, actually I would like to be able to just buy this, you know, like outright.

[00:44:08] Christina: And maybe you’re in instances where, um, a subscription doesn’t work. Like if you’re on a corporate laptop or something, maybe they don’t, you know, they, maybe they have requirements about how licenses work. You know what I mean? They’re, they’re just all kinds of options there. And, um, it does make sense too, since they’ve have the setup app store, uh, in the EU.

[00:44:25] Christina: Um, I don’t know what the status of that is now, but I know that they were working on having their own app store, um, for iOS and in the EU. And so, you know, if they’re already having to invest in that kind of infrastructure, you might as well expand it.

[00:44:40] Brett: Oh, like a sideloaded app

[00:44:42] Christina: Yeah, yeah, I know that that’s, I know they were, I don’t know

[00:44:46] Brett: right now,

[00:44:46] Christina: them or not, but I

[00:44:47] Brett: they

[00:44:47] Christina: I know they were looking at it.

[00:44:49] Brett: they, if you have a setup subscription and an app on setup has an iOS companion,

[00:44:56] Christina: correct. No, what I’m talking about. Yes, no, yes, that [00:45:00] that’s not what I’m talking about. Um, and I don’t know what the status of this is, but I know that last year when, um, the EU announced that like Apple would have to accept third party app stores that set up was like, we will make a third party app store in the EU that will have.

[00:45:14] Christina: You know, um, apps that you might not be able to get otherwise, or apps that people might want to sell through an alternative way, similar to, to what the, the, the Delta guys have done, um, with, uh, with their, um, app store for, for, for, for the Delta emulator. Um, although that is available officially in the app store as well, but, but there are other apps that, that aren’t, and so.

[00:45:34] Christina: If I, what I’m assuming, and I have no, you know, knowledge around this, but I would assume that if they were going to take on the undertaking of being like, okay, we have to have this much money that’s required by the DMA to have this, you know, um, uh, you know, uh, marketplace, if we have to go through all this process of building out our infrastructure to do individual sales and to do this stuff for the EU, we might as well make some tweaks and make, uh, you know, a paddle gumroad, [00:46:00] you know, uh, you know, um, uh, you know, Whatever.

[00:46:04] Christina: Um, exactly. So, so you can sell individual licenses, um, to, um, outside of mobile, you know, cause if you’re already building it out, you might as well, um, get, get some bank for your buck if you’re doing all of that,

[00:46:17] Brett: Right.

[00:46:17] Christina: I don’t know. Um, okay. Uh, uh, do you want to, can we talk about some new computers?

[00:46:24] Brett: Yes, let’s.

[00:46:26] Christina: Okay.

New Mac Announcements and Benchmarks

[00:46:27] Christina: So the new Macs, uh, we’ve got some new Mac updates, um, this week.

[00:46:30] Christina: We also got, um, uh, framework announced a bunch of stuff, uh, week before last, but let’s talk about the Macs first. So you, you have a, uh, an M4 Mac pro now, right?

[00:46:40] Brett: I have an M4 MacBook Pro, and I still have an M1 Studio, and I’ve been waiting for the studio update, and I, I, are there benchmarks out between the M3 Ultra and the M4 Max

[00:46:59] Christina: [00:47:00] Um, there are no, no, because the, the, uh, the, so, um, they announced the new Macs, um, a new Mac book air and, um, uh, the new Mac studio, uh, were both announced, uh, this week and they will be available starting on the 12th. So reviews will probably. Be out on Monday or Tuesday is my guess. And so we’ll start to see benchmarks then, but no, they don’t.

[00:47:22] Christina: Other than like some synthetic stuff that Apple put in the press releases, we don’t have any comparisons between the M4 Max and the M3 Ultra.

[00:47:30] Brett: the M3 Ultra is priced higher than the M4 Max,

[00:47:35] Christina: Yes.

[00:47:36] Brett: so I have