Pen Pals Pod

Kelton's launching the Rewilding Spring Almanac and kicking off the first night of the murmuration, while Krisserin just landed back from Ohio—sick kid and 90-degree weather whiplash. Both hosts hit the reset button on goals this week: Kelton powered through a low mental health stretch by focusing on necessary work, and Krisserin squeezed in 400 words of writing between travel chaos.

This week's guest is Courtney Maum, author of six books including the Vanity Fair-recognized publishing guide Before and After the Book Deal, the Today Show-selected memoir The Year of the Horses, and her upcoming novel Alan Opts Out (May 2026). Courtney brings twenty years of advertising experience, a trend forecaster's instinct for being "ten years early," and a take-no-prisoners approach to the writing life. She talks about deliberately going against her agent's advice to stay in one lane, why she thinks of herself as split between "art witch and money bitch," and how code-switching across genres is a professional joy, not a liability.

Courtney gets candid about Substack strategy—who it works for, who should take a beat, and her prediction that old-school quarterly author newsletters are making a comeback. She breaks down her "anti-workshop workshop" Turning Points, a week-long retreat on a remote New Mexico ranch that combines MFA-level craft work with MBA-level industry strategy, and explains why the traditional fifteen-page workshop model fails writers.

Plus: Kelton's goal for the week is to dive back into her novel's plot (inspired by Courtney's declaration that she knew Alan Opts Out was a Big Five book because "it had a plot"), Krisserin steals the same goal, and both hosts commit to sharing their plot structures with each other as accountability homework. 

Books Courtney is reading right now:
• Hemlock by Melissa Eno
• Monster of a Land: On the Road in Search of Modern America by Lauren Hough  
• Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood by Lisa Damour Ph.D. 

Books mentioned by hosts:
• Wired for Story by Lisa Cron
• The Anatomy of Story by John Truby
• Magic Maker by Pam Grossman
• Wonderbook by Jeff Vandemeer

Learn more about Courtney Maum:
Website: https://www.courtneymaum.com/
Substack: Before and After the Book Deal
Turning Points retreat applications close April 30th
Pre-order Alan Opts Out from Oblong Books for a signed copy with lobster stickers

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin opens with a rollercoaster week: a 5 AM email from her agent pushing book submission to late spring, followed by the joyful news that she's been accepted to IAIA's MFA program in New Mexico. Kelton channeled a burst of creative energy into writing her novel's climax in a single marathon session and is preparing to launch the Spring Almanac of her Rewilding course.

The conversation turns to Kelton's concept of the "living week" — the minimum your writing practice needs to survive, like watering a plant just enough to keep it alive. They explore what it means to differentiate between a thin week and genuinely losing steam, and Krisserin takes away a new goal: putting writing on her calendar for the first time.

Plus: Rachel Hochhauser hits the New York Times bestseller list, Kelton pulls up her mom's birth chart mid-recording, Krisserin confesses her inability to read books without a love story, and both hosts set realistic goals for weeks that are already overflowing.

Writing programs, classes and workshops mentioned:

UCLA Extension Writers' Program: https://writers.uclaextension.edu/
Leigh Stein — Attention Economy (Substack newsletter + writing classes including Plot Curious): https://leighstein.substack.com/
Chelsea Hodson — Morning Writing Club (Patreon membership, writing accountability + classes): https://morningwritingclub.com/
Trust & Travel — The Practice (monthly writing membership, ~$40/month, weekly writing groups + monthly classes): https://www.wetrustandtravel.com/
Jessy Easton — The Inner Room (somatic writing community for writing about trauma, quarterly membership): https://www.jessyeaston.com/
Kelton's The Rewilding (self-guided creative practice course): https://www.keltonwright.com/rewilding
The Murmuration (free guided journaling workshops): https://www.keltonwright.com/murmuration 

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin and Kelton finally answer the question listeners keep asking: who ARE these people? This week it's just the two of them — no guest, just origin stories, childhood chaos, and big three energy. From Krisserin's desert horses and Newport Beach culture shock to Kelton's Gettysburg ghost childhood and lunch money con, they dig into how they grew up, how they became writers, and why this podcast is the friendship neither of them knew they needed. Plus astrology deep dives, a secret project update, and goal assignments for each other.

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton wraps up her Rewilding winter class and launches something new—a free monthly writing practice called the Murmuration—while Krisserin confesses she's started a secret new project (2,400 words and counting, but she's not telling us what it is). Both hosts are taking a beat from their main manuscripts, and this week's interview is the perfect reminder of why stepping away can be the most important part of the process.

Then they're joined by Rachel Hochhauser, author of Lady Tremaine, a reimagining of Cinderella from the perspective of the so-called evil stepmother. Rachel shares how the idea struck her in a hospital waiting room during her husband's health crisis—a season of sacrifice that made her see the "villain" with entirely new eyes. She opens up about writing a first novel in grad school, querying unsuccessfully for years, dramatically walking away from writing, and then returning to draft Lady Tremaine in just seven months. The conversation covers her preemptive sale to St. Martin's Press, the surprising depth of copy editing, defending her book's carefully calibrated romance against market pressure, and the reality of two-book deals (hint: it's not a salary).

Plus: the Bridgerton timing is almost too good, and Kelton coins the pitch "hawks and hotties."

Find Rachel Hochhauser:
Website: rachelhochhauser.com
Instagram: @hochhauser
Book: Lady Tremaine from St. Martin's Press

Books Mentioned in This Episode:
Annihilation by Jeff VanderMeer
Uprooted by Naomi Novik
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
H Is for Hawk by Helen Macdonald
Light Years by James Salter

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton gets her first agent rejection and refuses to sugarcoat it—while Krisserin shares what she learned about advances, deal structures, and editor wish lists from her meeting with agent Kima Jones.

Then bestselling author Cait Flanders joins to tell the unlikely origin story of The Year of Less—how a blogged shopping ban went viral on Forbes, attracted six literary agents, and became a Wall Street Journal bestseller now resurfacing on TikTok a decade later. Cait gets refreshingly transparent about advances, earning out, switching publishers, and the real tension between maintaining a SubStack audience and carving out space to write her third book.

Plus: middle grade fiction advocacy, a genre-busting reading challenge, and why Kelton’s only goal this week is to read a book.

Find Cait Flanders:
Website: www.caitflanders.com
Substack: caitflanders.substack.com
Instagram: @caitflanders

Books by Cait Flanders:
The Year of Less (Hay House) — Wall Street Journal Bestseller
Adventures in Opting Out (Little Brown Spark) 

Books Mentioned in This Episode: 
“October, October” by Katya Balen 
“The Names” by Florence Knapp 
“The Housemaid” by Frieda McFadden 
“Annihilation” by Jeff VanderMeer 
“Lady Tremaine” by Rachel Hochhauser 
“The Ogress and the Orphans” by Kelly Barnville 

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

We couldn't just talk about Emily Zipps' debut author survey — we had to talk to her. Krisserin and Kelton sit down with Emily herself — author of Alice Rue Evades the Truth and the forthcoming The Two Lives of Amelia Waxler (both from Dial Press) — to dig into what inspired her to survey 60 fellow debut authors, what surprised her in the results, and what she found genuinely hopeful.

Find Emily online:
Instagram & Threads: @emilyzipps
Website: emilyzipps.com
Substack (Fun Announcements and Sporadic Thoughts): emilyzipps.substack.com
Emily Zipps' Debut Author Survey: https://substack.com/home/post/p-185355080

Books: Alice Rue Evades the Truth (available now) | The Two Lives of Amelia Waxler (forthcoming 2027)

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

What does a debut author actually get paid? Krisserin and Kelton dig into Emily Zips' survey data and don't love what they find—average two-book deals for $50K, most authors working day jobs, and advances that won't cover daycare.

Plus: Kelton's Scrivener file predicted her dream agent, Instagram shadow ban drama, the identity question of "writer vs. mom," and why chapter summaries feel like showing your work in seventh grade math. Krisserin's IAIA MFA application is complete, and someone's getting paid $100 per chapter summary—into their own savings account.

Books Mentioned in This Episode:
• "The Possession of Alba Diaz" by Isabel Cañas
• "Soul Searching" by Lyla Sage

Resources Mentioned:
• Emily Zipps' Debut Author Survey

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Krisserin panics her way through a grad school application (wrong link, wrong deadline, wrong page numbers), while Kelton enters the querying trenches—19 Google Docs open, three agents contacted, and the immediate certainty that something went wrong. But the real treat this week is their interview with Mark Sarvas, award-winning author of Memento Park and Harry, Revised, Krisserin's longtime teacher and mentor from the UCLA Extension Writers Program.

Mark shares the full arc of his writing journey—from burnt-out screenwriter to literary blogger with 50,000 daily readers to novelist who didn't publish until 44. He talks about the "non-recurring phenomenon" of finding his agent Simon Lipskar at Writer's House, why he did eight full drafts of his first novel before sending a single query, and the love-match quality of the right agent relationship. The conversation digs into the changing landscape of publishing, including the rise of ghosting culture that's infected even longtime editor-agent relationships, and why platform obsession is the wrong focus for fiction writers—citing his former student Miranda Heller, whose debut The Paper Palace became a number one New York Times bestseller without any social media presence.

Mark gets practical about what writers should invest in (build your library first, always), the hierarchy of residencies from $500-a-week cabins to fully funded month-long stays in France, and the writing retreat he runs on the Monterey Peninsula with his partner Jennifer's literary organization, To the Lighthouse. He explains his workshop philosophy—why the day your work gets critiqued is the least important day, why "I wanted" is a banned phrase in his classroom, and why you should submit your weakest chapter, not your strongest.

Plus: Kelton gets feedback from a well-connected friend that splinters her querying path, Mark reveals he's working on a historical novel with multiple POVs (a deliberate challenge after three first-person books), and both hosts celebrate the rare achievement of actually completing their weekly goals.

Learn more about Mark Sarvas:
Website: marksarvas.com
Blue Sky: marksarvas.bsky.social
Newsletter: The Eternal Recurrence
2026 Fiction Writing Retreat with Mark Sarvas, To the Lighthouse: https://www.tothelighthouse.net/retreats

Books by Mark Sarvas:
MEMENTO PARK (FSG)
HARRY, REVISED (Bloomsbury)
@UGMAN (ITNA Press)

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Kelton's inbox delivers a dream: an agent from a respected agency slid into her DMs after discovering her writing on Substack. The excitement is real—but so is the anxiety of navigating what comes next. Do you query other agents simultaneously? How do you know if you vibe? And what does a "good deal" actually mean on Publisher's Marketplace?

This week, Kelton and Krisserin break down the research-heavy world of finding representation—from decoding deal tiers to building agent lists through comp titles and genre searches. Krisserin shares wisdom from her own querying journey, including her stack-ranked spreadsheets, red flags to watch for, and the agent who dared to criticize her exposition after requesting only three pages.

The conversation gets real about money: advances that barely cover childcare, dental insurance regrets, and why writers need to stop treating book deals like lottery tickets and start asking themselves what their financial goals actually are. Plus: the ethics of getting rich by caring a little less, and why Krisserin's book absolutely deserves a "major" deal.

Goals for the week: Kelton's querying three agents after polishing her prologue, and Krisserin's taking a rare self-care day—spa, library, latte, and maybe some editor research if the vibes are right.

Support Minnesota:
• Women's Foundation of Minnesota: https://www.wfmn.org/funds/immigrant-rapid-response/
• Publishing for Minnesota Auction: https://www.32auctions.com/publishingforMN 

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

What happens when a designer walks into a Manhattan publishing office with paper prototypes that look like children's toys? In this episode, Kelton reconnects with Vicki Tan, a former colleague from Headspace turned author, to explore her unconventional path to publishing Ask This Book a Question—an interactive cognitive bias book that defies easy categorization.

Vicki shares how a chance conversation with a friend (who also connected her with an agent) led to an in-person pitch meeting, a two-year pandemic pause, and ultimately a bidding war between major publishers. She reveals why the stories in her book matter more than the science, how her original editor leaving mid-project changed the final product, and why she still doesn't call herself an author. Plus: the upcoming companion card deck, the power of comp titles when your book doesn't fit a genre, and why the most interesting ideas are often the hardest to pitch.

Also in this episode: Kelton starts agent shopping with a 12-person spreadsheet, Krisserin recovers from Miami work travel, and a listener question about repurposing Substack essays for publication.

Links:

• Vicki's website: vickitan.com/book
• Instagram: @vickiheart

Books Vicki Recommended:

• The Paper Menagerie by Ken Liu
• Subtle by Kenya Hara
• Universal Principles of Design by William Lidwell, Kritina Holden, and Jill Butler

Write to us:
[email protected]

Follow us:
Instagram: @penpalspod
TikTok: @penpalspod
YouTube: @PenPalsPod
SubStack: penpalspod.substack.com

Follow Krisserin and Kelton:
TikTok: @krisserin, @keltonwrites
Instagram: @keltonkin, @keltonwrites
Kelton's Substack: Shangrilogs
Krisserin's Substack: krisserin.substack.com

Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios