Elizabeth Neumann served as the Assistant Secretary for Counterterrorism and Threat Prevention at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security during the Bush Administration, and came back to the White House again in 2017 to serve in the Trump Administration.

Her job was to counter emerging right-wing extremism, fueled by long-standing anger, resentment, white supremacism, and Christian nationalism. By April 2020, she had resigned from the Trump Administration. Citing a failure of leadership and his imperiling of American security, she signed an August 2020 statement with 130 other Republican national security officials, boldly stating in no uncertain terms that Trump was unfit for office.

In this episode, Elizabeth opens up about this experience, told in her recent book Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace. As a person of Christian faith with over two decades of experience in public service and national security, she offers a fascinating inside take on the inattention to domestic terrorism; she elucidates the emergence of a new and Christian extremism, grounded in rage and willing to take violent action; she explains the Jan 6 attack through the perspective of homeland security; and she reflects on Christian resources for responding to the chaotic, politicized anger characterized in right-wing extremism and how we might act as instruments of peace.

About Elizabeth Neumann

Elizabeth Neumann served as the Assistant Secretary for Counterterrorism and Threat Prevention at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security during the Bush administration, and came back to the White House again in 2017 to serve in the Trump Administration, publicly resigning in 2020. She is author of Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace, and is a frequent guest on national news outlets, and the Chief Strategy Officer at Moonshot. She is based in the Denver, CO area.

Show Notes

• Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace by Elizabeth Neumann
• Elizabeth Neumann’s faith journey and background in public service.
• Christian, North Texas/Bible Belt, more theologically conservative—an “evangelical mutt”
• Body of Christ is made up of different communities—personally gravitating towards more nerdy churches, an emphasis on Bible studies
• Public service as a way to live out the faith
• Working for George W. Bush campaigns for governor and president—federalism, conservative, to the states: faith-based community initiatives and Bush’s compassionate conservative agenda
• 9/11 as a moment of change
• Working in Homeland Security, specifically in the Domestic Terrorism Unite
• Instances of domestic violent extremism: Pittsburg Tree of Life (2018), Christ Church in New Zealand (2019), and El Paso Walmart (2019)
• Do you think of them as domestic terrorism? Do you think of it as a kind of violence that’s brewing from within? How does the Department of Security try to understand threats to America from within?
• Intelligence is used to inform responses to challenges, yet the means to collect don’t work domestically and domestic material support of terrorism is not understood as criminal
• No way to designate domestic terrorism groups
• The threat has been there all along; domestic extremists require a shift in the focus - many Americans (3%, roughly 8 million people) believe in the necessity of violence for political aims
• We don’t talk about it so people don’t know about it, but the church is equipped to discuss and address the underlying drivers that mobilize people to violence
• How did you experience perspective shifts?
• COVID in 2020, protests against COVID procedures, and the protests surrounding the murder of George Floyd
• Weaponizing of crisis by Trump administration for re-election campaign
• The ANTIFA movement; authoritarian responses from Trump that were illegal and unconstitutional; no longer anyone in the room to tell him no
• January 6 highlighted a security failure that was both day of as well as a result of 20 years of ignoring a threat from within
• Would you be willing to share a bit about what motivated your decision to leave the Trump administration?
• Presidential personnel interviews as a loyalty test; people being pushed out; how far were people willing to go for Donald Trump?
• Hatch Act: prohibits federal employees, including political appointees, from engaging in political activity
• Christian nationalist mindset—How does Christianity get radicalized?
• Extremism: when an in-group perceives a threat to its success or survival by an out-group and hostile action is necessary—this is the nature of contemporary politics which are saturated in fear and anger.
• The plausibility of violent action
• Violence is not the option taught by Jesus and the Scriptures
• Violence has a historic presence in the Christian tradition
• Change in the presence of Christianity in society that is unsettling for some, but cannot be an excuse for extremists and violent action
• What are the prospects of keeping it a peaceful community?
• Building protective factors and systems for healing brokenness
• Unmet needs cannot be allowed to be met by extremist ideology when the Church possesses the answers and the means to meet them; a call to properly investing in our communities
• The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion by Jonathan Haidt
• Motivated by emotions and experience—critical thinking is a vital skill
• We are in a perpetual state of anger; we are called to not stay angry
• Processing anger properly; being better at lament and grieving in a biblical way
• Tim Keller on idolatry and anger; an interfering with our idols; Counterfeit Gods: The Empty Promises of Money, Sex, and Power and the Only Hope that Matters?
• What is lying more deeply within us when anger is on the surface?
• The space to lament and grieve in society in a healthy way
• The Lord can meet us in our anger; he will take it when we bring it to him and ask for help
• What does it mean to be a Christian peacemaker?
• Intentionally caring for communities; the quiet spaces in which the face of God is seen in others by loving them.

Production Notes

• This podcast featured Elizabeth Neumann
• Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa
• Hosted by Evan Rosa
• Production Assistance by Alexa Rollow & Kacie Barrett
• A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about
• Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give