Wren recently purchased a majority stake in Pacific Biochar, one of carbon removal's most prolific credit deliverers. What led to this deal, and will this model be emulated in a 2026 that might find carbon removal companies interested in (or maybe desperate for) deals that prolong runway and keep their companies alive?

Wren is one of the oldest marketplaces (and so much more) in carbon removal with a record of doing things differently. Sophie Westover is their Head of Climate and is on the show representing their thinking on this deal.

Josiah Hunt is the Founder and CEO of Pacific Biochar. He's been making biochar since before most of us knew it was a thing. He shares a lot of realness about the difficulties of being a project developer—even a successful one—in carbon removal.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Wren

Pacific Biochar

"Wren proudly invests in Pacific Biochar to scale carbon removal"

In case you want to see Pacific Biochar on the cdr.fyi supplier leaderboard.

Benefit corporation

Kita

"313: Can carbon removal be insured?—w/ Racheal Notto & James Kench, Kita"

What if microbes could help us mine responsibly? What if astrobiology—the study of life beyond Earth—held clues for how to fix the way we extract resources on Earth?

Today’s guest is Liz Dennett, CEO and founder of Endolith, a biotech startup using microbes to boost copper recovery from mining waste. With a PhD in astrobiology, experience at NASA, and a career spanning oil, gas, and data science, Dennett is one of the most fascinating polymaths in climate tech.

This episode dives into how microbes mine metals, why copper is civilization’s next constraint, and what it means to clean up an industry everyone loves to hate. Ross and Liz also explore the moral contradictions of “ethical extraction,” the realities of startup life, and how humor—and humility—might be the best renewable resources of all.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Endolith's website

Earth in Human Hands: Shaping Our Planet's Future by Dr. David Grinspoon⁠

⁠47: David Grinspoon, Astrobiologist⁠

⁠Geology Cage Match: The Sapiezoic vs. the Anthropocene

Bill Nye

Eukaryogenesis

Abiogenesis

Entropy

Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives by Siddharth Kara

The War BelowLithium, Copper, and the Global Battle to Power Our Lives by Ernest Scheyder

Deus ex machina
“If it falls to your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep streets like Michelangelo painted pictures, sweep streets like Beethoven composed music ... Sweep streets like Shakespeare wrote poetry. Sweep streets so well that all the host of heaven and earth will have to pause and say: Here lived a great street sweeper who swept his job well.”

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

World War I profoundly changed the world. Nation-states replaced empires. Russia went communist. Fascism arrived. The West's claim to being the most civilized peoples on Earth was supremely undermined. And out of so much suffering, we received a holiday prioritizing grief and mercy.

This bonus episode is me speed-running World War I and sharing some reflections on Armistice Day, Remembrance Day, Veterans Day, or however you might call it.

If you carry any of this grief with you personally, I hope you are able to forgive yourself and others. The choices of this world are not always easy, and we make mistakes.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠⁠⁠

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⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠⁠⁠

Resources

"In Flanders Fields" by John McCrae

There are a lot of references in this show. Normally I'd link, but for now, maybe just look some of them up if you feel so inclined.

Adaptation begins at home. But it doesn't end there. What do you plan on doing with your family as climate change gets worse? Are you already making plans whether to stay or go? How should states respond as people flee disaster? Who should get access to fish stocks as they migrate to new regions? Once one starts asking these questions, they really don't stop...

Today's guest is Susannah Fisher, author of the new book, Sink or Swim: How the World Needs to Adapt to a Changing Climate⁠. It's a wonderful catalogue of questions that asks and frames so many crucial discussions around people, nature, and politics.

Much of the first half of the show is about how it feels to start thinking about adaptation and resilience rather than more optimistic mitigation work, and why adaptation can bring its own solace. We might not need to panic just yet... and I enjoyed getting some emotional centering from Susannah's deep experience in A&R research and policy work.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠⁠⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Susannah Fisher's Sink or Swim: How the World Needs to Adapt to a Changing Climate

Lichen Ventures

Christina Figueres

Outrage + Optimism podcast

Adverse selection, which is the economics term for the problems of insurance and public schooling that I reference

"332: If Climate Change Can Impact Behavior, How Much Agency Do We Actually Have?—w/ Clayton Aldern, author of The Weight of Nature"

Thames River Barrier

There are various services where you can enter your address and view statistical flood and fire risk. Unfortunately since I last used it the one I used to use has been taken down..."

"372: Climate Change on the Battlefield: New Missions, New Kit, New Theaters—w/ Erin Sikorsky, Director of The Center for Climate and Security"

"S2E50: Under a White Sky: Elizabeth Kolbert's new book on humanity's ecological & climate interventions"

Earthshot Prize

Yellow Jackets in France protests

Katrina: Come Hell and High Water by Spike Lee

Is climate change a fringe and woke distraction in military planning that inhibits lethality? Or is it invaluable strategic context for this century's power projection? What kinds of missions will soldiers be asked to perform in a world that is getting hotter and more complex?

Today's guest is Erin Sikorsky, Director of The Center for Climate and Security and author of the new book, Climate Change on the Battlefield: International Military Responses to the Climate Crisis.

Though this show is not merely about warfighting and lethality. It's about what it means to have an apolitical military (if that term isn't too contestable). It's also about the military increasingly adapting its own facilities to climate change, and being tasked with many more disaster response missions than it has been previously. What does it mean to have an armed force that is spending more time fighting forest fires than preparing for amphibious assaults? Is this even the correct service to be addressing disasters?

I'd like to do many more episodes on this topic in the future. It's one that I find endlessly fascinating.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠⁠⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Erin Sikorsky's bio at The Center for Climate and Security

Erin's book, Climate Change on the Battlefield: International Military Responses to the Climate Crisis

Ian W. Toll's Pacific War Trilogy deals with interwar Japan, especially Pacific Crucible: War at Sea in the Pacific, 1941-1942. Listen also to the episode of the podcast I did with him here, "S3E34: The Environmental Impact of WW2 in the Pacific Theatre—w/ Ian W. Toll, author of The Pacific War Trilogy".

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode "Supernova in the East 1" deals with this extensively too.

Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus

I started reading Pete Hegseth's The War on Warriors: Behind the Betrayal of the Men Who Keep Us Free, and would like to keep reading more criticism of the conflict between military preparedness and climate change.

Listen in to the episode I did with Jeff Goodell where we discuss how the military thinks about climate change, "S3E51: The Heat Will Kill You First—w/ Jeff Goodell, author and contributing editor of Rolling Stone"

Also, read his book The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World

Great Green Fleet

Great White Fleet

Discounting/time preference

Cobra problem

Arctic Council

“Where some states have an army, the Prussian Army has a state.”
― Voltaire

Much of legacy media is dying. You know what isn't? Live sports. Where the outcome is uncertain, people want to watch.

That means bringing together large numbers of fans and athletes. And what does that all add up to? Emissions. And emissions that could potentially be detached from profitability, leading to budgets large enough to support meaningful carbon removal.

But will sports leagues move in this direction? Or is it better that it stay at the level of individual teams jockeying for brand value from climate action?

Today's guest is Dr. Aidan Preston, Senior Impact Manager of Milkywire and former Advisor to the United States Department of Energy.

Aidan is a sports fanatic and the author of Milkywire's latest report, "The Climate Cost of Growth in Sport: An Opportunity for Sports to Win on Climate".

We discuss the evolving media landscape around sports, the creation and surprising rise of new sports, the omnipresence of sports betting, and how all of this might play out for carbon removal and climate action.

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠⁠

⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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"The Climate Cost of Growth in Sport: An Opportunity for Sports to Win on Climate", a Milkywire report by Dr. Aidan Preston

350: Robert Höglund Presents: The Many Perils of Being Catalytic in a Carbon Accounting World

FIFA

"Mohammad Ali — Amazing Speed"; watch this video for the out-of-this-world dodges alone

America's Sweethearts: Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders; you can see the F1 and golf series on Netflix too

30 for 30

Kayfabe

Aidan recommended this Michael Lewis podcast on sports betting

Aidan sent me the link to this study on how talking to strangers brings satisfaction
Acquired episode about Indian Premier League Cricket

https://www.derekthompson.org/p/why-everything-became-television
CUR8

Taylor Swift and the Chiefs/NFL

Jason Isbell on being the subject of the documentary, Jason Isbell: Running With Our Eyes Closed: "Yet Isbell admits there were times during the filming process when he needed a moment to himself. 

“I would leave the room, or unplug my microphone and get away from the camera. Sometimes it was too much,” he says. “But once the footage was all there and edited together, I didn’t use any sort of veto power or take anything out.”"

The Gulf of Aden (sorry, Aidan; I couldn't help it...)

What happens when you build a list of very nearly every carbon dioxide removal company in existence? You get access to intriguing data and the pride of a very laborious job done well. Presumably you also get to take a nap.

Grant Faber is a long-time carbon removal community fixture working on Life Cycle Analysis and Techno-Economic Assessment. Formerly of the Department of Energy, he now works with Absolute Climate (coincidentally, a sponsor of this episode!)

Listen is as Grant shares what he has learned about looking at so many technology and project developers, whether it is better to be one-of-a-kind or in a community of methodological fellow travelers, and where he would go if he were ready to found his own company.

He also avoids the risk of creating an alphabetical list of French cinema only to have it be called "seminal" in a cloak room. (Sorry, obligatory Peep Show reference...)

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries⁠

⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate⁠

⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Resources

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337: Fired from the Department of Energy: Carbon Removal's DOGE Night of the Soul—w/ Grant Faber, Carbon-Based Consulting

333: Coproduction & Additionality: How Do We Draw the Line for Carbon Removal?—w/ Grant Faber, Carbon-Based Consulting

359: Why Is the Pulp and Paper Industry So Great for CDR?—w/ Natalie Khtikian & Jon Rhone, Cofounders of CO280

363: Carbon Markets and The Art of Not Being Governed: Legibility vs. Complexity in James C. Scott—w/ Grant Faber

Grant's blog, Carbon-Based Commentary

Aquarry

CarbonRun

Sinkco Labs

Grant's list (link to come)

Notes from Alkali Earth on Substack

Noya winddown post on LinkedIn

Ryan Anderson's MegaDAC Database

Bob Woodward on Wikipedia

Residual

CO280

Deep Sky

I came back from New York Climate Week energized. I loved seeing everyone. But many of the conversations I had profoundly scared me. We're staring into the abyss of deep overshoot, and it's staring back into us.

What would it mean for us to make peace with a world that doesn't decarbonize fast enough? That doesn't scale carbon removal before tipping points are reached? That is forced into more radical geoengineering approaches that may just be one more layer of intervention that we will likely manage just as badly?

This is an emotional show. It's about war. It's about the Holocaust. It's about what it means to fail, and to fail gracefully, and how imagining how you would feel if you lost everything can potentially offer an unexpected lightness.

This Episode's Sponsors

Absolute Climate:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ the only standard that’s developed independent of registries

Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Peter Minor from Absolute Climate

⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP⁠

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Resources

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This episode title is a reference to Bonnie "Prince" Billy's excellent song, "I See a Darkness." I enjoy the slow version, but I adore the jauntier one's sense of irony, hope, and despair.

The art is William Blake's work on Job.

The riding the bomb scene from Dr. Strangelove

Thucydides Trap

Destined For War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides's Trap by Graham Allison

338: Carbon Security and the Geopolitics of Carbon Removal—w/ Sarah Godek

The Avoidable War: The Dangers of a Catastrophic Conflict between the US and Xi Jinping's China by Kevin Rudd (here's his correct name!)

Guns and butter

"Ukraine's Zelenskyy issues a stark warning about a global arms race and AI war", NPR

Cassandra

Job
Eternal return

Liberum Veto

330: Frostpunk 2: Climate Video Games and Humane Storytelling at 11 bit studios—w/ Maciej Sulecki of This War of Mine, Frostpunk 1 & 2

Ken Krimstein's When I Grow Up

Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy Snyder

Hasidic Judaism

Vilna Gaon

Partitions of Poland

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

Holodomor

The Road

The Bridge on the River Kwai

"Life unworthy of life"

The unfinished business of ghosts

Dante's Divine Comedy—both Cantos VI & XVI have this feel

"In man's life his time is a mere instant, his existence a flux, his perception fogged, his whole bodily composition rotting, his mind a whirligig, his fortune unpredictable, his fame unclear. To put it shortly: all things of the body stream away like a river, all things of the mind are dreams and delusion; life is warfare, and a visit in a strange land; the only lasting fame is oblivion.

What then can escort us on our way? One thing, and one thing only: philosophy. This consists in keeping the divinity within us inviolate and free from harm, master of pleasure and pain, doing nothing without aim, truth, or integrity, and independent of others' action or failure to act. Further, accepting all that happens and is allotted to it as coming from that other source which is its own origin: and at all times awaiting death with the glad confidence that it is nothing more than the dissolution of the elements of which every living creature is composed. Now if there is nothing fearful for the elements themselves in their constant changing of each into another, why should one look anxiously in prospect at the change and dissolution of them all? This is in accordance with nature: and nothing harmful is in accordance with nature."

— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book Two, 17

We all want to make sure carbon removal works. But who is working to make it beautiful? And could creating beauty be one of the most important jobs in all of climate?

Leila Conners is a filmmaker who has been making environmental films for decades, including legendary ones like The 11th Hour with Leonardo DiCaprio. Her latest opus is Legion 44, which is a wonderful documentary highlighting so many alumni from this podcast and the CDR industry.

We also discuss why the antihero is such a popular archetype, how you should construct your media diet, and the role of the feature film when long-form and short-form content are polarizing media duration.

Legion 44 is now available for viewing on its own website and several other places, as well as on Tree+: Leila's new tv channel that you can download right to your smart tv. Please support her work spotlighting climate solutions and the delightful world of carbon removers.

"The world will be saved by beauty."

- Fyodor Dostoyevsky

-- Dorothy Day

--- Michael Scott (jk... unless?)

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Arbonics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: forestry project developer in the EU⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Listen to the RCC episode with Lisett Luik from Arbonics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Listen to the RCC episode with Ryan Covington from Philip Lee LLP

Become a sponsor by emailing carbon.removal.strategies[at]gmail.com

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Resources

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Leila Conners IMDb⁠

⁠Legion 44⁠

⁠Tree Media⁠

⁠Tree+ tv channel⁠

The 11th Hour

Koyaanisqatsi

Philip Glass's theme from ⁠Koyaanisqatsi⁠

Dorothy Day: The World Will Be Saved by Beauty: An Intimate Portrait of My Grandmother is also a lovely book by Kate Hennessy, and also probably what highlighted this beautiful sentiment for me.

Ari Aster

Hereditary

Graham Hancock

David Attenborough

Or "project finance", for that matter? Or are these just the current words we say at happy hours?

Today, we attempt to nail down some of these definitions so we might have a chance of achieving either of these concepts.

Ryan Covington is an attorney and partner in the Climate Projects team of Philip Lee (US) LLP, focused on the development and financing of engineered and nature-based carbon projects. Ryan shares his experience in structuring large financial deals in the carbon removal and climate tech space.

Can carbon removal ever achieve scale without sufficient commercial finesse? Likely not, but isn't it pretty to think so?

This Episode's Sponsors

⁠⁠⁠⁠Philip Lee LLP: legal resources for carbon removal buyers and suppliers⁠⁠⁠⁠

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J'Accuse...!

Ryan Covington's profile at Philip Lee LLP

Philip Lee LLP's Climate Projects page

The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

Midnight in Paris scene with Ernest Hemingway

"359: Why Is the Pulp and Paper Industry So Great for CDR?—w/ Natalie Khtikian & Jon Rhone, Co-Founders of CO280"