Welcome to episode 91 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by Nho Tran, who, after 17 years as a nun in the Plum Village tradition, is now continuing her spiritual journey as a layperson. 

Together, they explore the origins and evolution of the Plum Village tradition: the Buddhist lineage founded by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh (Thay). Thay worked to restore and renew Vietnamese Buddhism, integrating its rich history and diverse influences while increasing the teachings’ accessibility and relevance to the modern world.

The participants describe Thay’s openness to adapting practices to different communities’ needs, while maintaining the tradition’s core principles and lineage. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding one’s roots and cultural heritage, and of the flexibility to evolve and innovate within a spiritual tradition, and how these principles led to Thay’s vision of engaged Buddhism, which seeks to address societal issues and cultivate both inner and outer peace. 

Among other insights, Nho shares her personal journey of reconnecting with her Vietnamese heritage and identity through Thay’s teachings, while Brother Phap Huu reflects on Thay’s intentional weaving together of the ancient roots of Vietnamese Buddhism with contemporary relevance and accessibility. 

Bio: Nho Tran is a scholar, facilitator, and former Buddhist nun in the Plum Village tradition of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. For many years, she lived and practiced in monastic communities across Asia, Europe, and North America, where she cultivated a deep commitment to interbeing, cultural resilience, and the art of mindful living.

Nho’s work sits at the intersection of conflict transformation, ethics, and systems thinking. Drawing on her monastic formation and experience across diverse sectors, she supports individuals and communities in navigating difficult conversations, fostering cultural change, and reimagining leadership grounded in compassion and collective wisdom.

She holds a joint degree in Cognitive Neuroscience and Religion from the University of Southern California, a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School, and an MA from Harvard University. She is currently a PhD candidate at Harvard’s Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, where her research explores the intersections of religion, ethics, governance, and Vietnamese Buddhist history.

Nho teaches negotiation, ethics, and conflict resolution at Harvard, and continues to serve as a bridge between contemplative practice and social transformation.

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/  

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/

List of resources 

Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcast

Interbeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing  

James Baldwin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baldwin 

Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths 

Thich Nhat Hanh: Redefining the Four Noble Truths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARDko51Xdw 

‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village 

Theravada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada 

Mahayana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana 

Champa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa 

Vajrayana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana 

Prajnaparamita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajnaparamita 

Dhyana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana_in_Buddhism 

Linji
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linji_school   

Pearl S. Buck
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_S._Buck

‘Please Call Me By My True Name’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/please-call-me-by-my-true-names-song-poem 

Quotes

“Is it James Baldwin who says, ‘If you love something dearly, you can love it and, at the same time, critique it with your whole heart’?”

“I remember Thay saying that when he met an individual, he never saw that person as themselves alone; he saw the entire lineage of what had brought that person to this present moment.” 

“Understanding is another name for love.”

“One of the beauties of the teachings of the Buddha is that the monks are also scholars. They love to help articulate the teachings of Buddhism; they love to create lists and they love to categorize things as a means to transmit them. And then the deepest practice is being free from all of that and to see the weaving of all the teachings.”

“In the will of our teacher, written to all of us, his monks and nuns students, he said that one of the greatest heritages of Buddhism, of the Buddha’s teaching, is this openness to ever grow, to ever change, and not to believe in a god, a doctrine. That is the only way.” 

“Thay once told me that we don’t have time to go and correct people. Instead, we have to develop our liberation and transmit this beautiful teaching to the next generation.”

“Thay is very progressive in order for the tree to grow, but very conservative to restore the roots. That is the dance around and in the teachings of the Buddha: the middle way. To meet the present moment, we have to find a pathway that continues to evolve, but we also need to have roots.”

“If we are practicing Buddhism, but we’re not practicing inner peace, outer peace, and liberation, then that is not Buddhism. So, Thay’s understanding of Buddhism goes beyond form.”

“What is our compass? That is mindfulness. Come back to our awareness of the present moment.” 

“Buddhism is made of non-Buddhist elements. Plum Village is made up of non-Plum Village elements – but it does have foundations, and the Four Plum Village seals, which Thay said are our defining way of teaching and practice.”

“There is so much richness and goodness in spirituality and in religion because religion is made of non-religious elements.”

“If the identity or the moniker of ‘a Buddhist’ gets in the way of the work that I’m trying to do, which is peace and liberation, I will let that go gladly. But it doesn’t mean I’m not a Buddhist, or that I don’t get to tap into the tradition. If that’s getting in the way, if that makes people suffer more, that’s not the name of the game. I’m trying to get to liberation; I’m trying to get to freedom for everyone; I’m trying to get to a place where everyone gets to tap into this endless source of love.” 

“The perfection of wisdom is to be able to hold two seemingly contradictory things together in perfect harmony.”