Something Shiny: ADHD!

David starts by introducing his incredible friend—poet, speaker, and advocate for all people with disabilities, LeDerick Horne. He uses LeDerick’s own advice about introducing people: think of the last time you saw them and then why they’re here now. David last remembers walking with LeDerick on a cold Chicago day after eating delicious Ethiopian food and talking up a storm almost a year before this recording, and the reason for LeDerick being on Something Shiny goes deeper. When David was first learning about how to be an advocate and unmask his own LD/ADHD (side note: David does not like frosting on cakes, he just doesn’t), LeDerick was one of David's first mentors in this field, but he’s also a poet, a playwright, a businessperson, a consultant, a fellow D&D enthusiast, advocate for the voiceless, tree farmer, and the list could go on—David wants to be like LeDerick when he grows up. LeDerick feels likewise with David, a good friend and remarkable human being—and it’s been great for them to go on this journey together. Isabelle is so giddy to hear more and to witness such love and friendship. LeDerick was a founding board chair for a mentoring organization, Project Eye to Eye (see link below for more), where he and David first met, but the two became closer when they were working for the State of Nevada, where an event for young people with disabilities, primarily LD/ADHD coming from all over the state of Nevada, talking about transition with the state's leaders shifted into building a community, and David makes that happen. David was the first one to talk and break the ice, and these were teams of young people throughout the state (as both the most rural and urban state in America)—where some were the only ones with an LD/ADHD in the county, others coming from Vegas and huge school districts—and David was sent in to break the ice and pull them all together, and he would make that connection, and the resources that were able to share for the young people. It was this ability to look around the room and realize you were not alone, and as leaders, LeDerick and David had to embody the modeling. David also realized that the power of being who we were, and not coaching people to be perfect, because being perfect misses the point. David wonders, what would LeDerick want to tell a younger version of himself—he was just in a room with an 18 yo kid who was about to go transition post high school, and he wanted him to hear: “if nothing else happens, you need to hear that you are okay just as you are now. You are not broken. Nothing about you needs to be fixed. That you are beautiful: your mind, your body, the way you show up in this world, you are beautiful right now.” He tries to chip away the edges of shame, embarrassment that then let someone be who they really are, like a sculptor. David wonders how you can say that and convey this without it feeling like patting someone on the head—are you, LeDerick, aware how you embody this in such a powerful way? LeDericks shares still feeling nervous, and how many different settings he’s been in, whether it’s a setting where he felt like people could attack him for what he was saying in a presentation to school, v. Speaking to a bunch of academics, to speaking to one kid in a room—he’s passionate about inclusion, having come from a segregated experience himself.  But he’s able to carry himself in this way through collaboration, a network of support, and also knowing that our representation and our narrative matters. It’s one thing for a parent, teacher, or counselor to say you’re going to be okay, but the it comes from someone who has lived it, it’s different and hits very differently, covering the ups and downs. “It’s not just the message, it’s also the messenger.”  And he uses poetry and it’s cuts through the BS, it gets to the heart of the message. David makes a reference to one of his favorite book series, the Gunslinger (see below), and there’s a line in it where Roland says “I can tell you’re a good person, I’ve seen you fight naked” — there’s a vulnerability and a naked fighting that happens. David is in an organizing council with fellow folks with LD/ADHD, at Eye to Eye, and he’s having this incredible community experience, and then LeDerick puts on a full play, and did spoken word poetry, and sat and talked with people for hours, and the whole time he was doing it he was effortless. David has never met somebody with an LD that moved like water, was so carefree, so confident—it was embodied in you, and you fight for anyone that is marginalized in a system and the importance of inclusion. Teachers are working an impossible task, and are crunched in the middle of the system and kids and parents, and it’s very simple for people to say “advocate for the use of accommodations” but what does it actually mean for there to be an inclusive classroom. LeDerick has just come from a municipality conference and the mayor of Hillside named how educators are really nation builders. LeDerick shares his own history, he started in a Catholic school, and then was told the school sent him to the public school because they didn’t have the resources to support him, and then by 3rd grade was outed as being LD and embarrassed in front of his class, and it let to evaluations, and then a resource room and then a self-contained special education classroom, where he was with the same teacher and kids for the next three years, and it was just that classroom on the playground during recess. He knows that negative self-concept and a lot of that was ingrained from passing through the education system in that way, reinforced a lot of negative practices in our schooling, it was predominantly a class of black and brown boys. They were separated from everyone else and fed the idea they were not as good as everyone else. And the teachers who ran that classroom, that were incredible and loving, holding very high expectations for the students, but despite that, the segregation is still speaking to you, still making you feel less then. LeDerick was able to graduate, despite all this and an emotional breakdown when he was 17—he aims to go to college, and it would be the first time he’d be in classes with everyone else, and needing accommodations. He remembers that change being so fast, “here’s how your mind works, and here’s the tech you need, and what accommodations you need” and within a few months, it felt like school is easy. Because I don’t have to worry about spelling, I can just write? Okay, I’m going to be a poet. Oh, I can use a calculator? I’m going to major in mathematics. There were still elements of being in a more inclusive educational setting, it honored LeDerick as a human being, as a student, in a way he hadn’t been honored before. Project Connections, an amazing LD support program (which sadly no longer exists), he was able to finish and transfer and end up taking 26 credits his last summer. He had started sharing his story in college, and was sharing his story on a panel, Bob Haugh and Bill Freeman saw him on this panel and gave him an opportunity to speak at a conference, which led to him being the MC at state conferences in New Jersey called Dare to Dream. Inclusion works and it’s more about being in the same room together, and with teachers who don’t have foundations or supports and don’t know what to do. Honoring teachers and giving them an opportunity to collaborate, having time to work as a team, bringing in specialists with specific backgrounds, whether speech or language, social interactions, when someone can show up and share interventions, school schedul...

Here's a REPLAY of good ol' episode 11 to help ease your transition into 2023-with new episodes coming soon! -- Why do some of us minimize and reduce the number of choices while others seek excitement and novelty? Why do some of us need everything listed out while others need to just try something blindly? The secret? Different types of ADHD and different ways our ADHD shows up in different environments! David and Isabelle are joined by Bobby and Noah, who also have ADHD, and talk about things like trying to leave the house, deciding what to eat, and why their accommodations all look so different.
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Transitions and choices are hard. Isabelle and David are joined by Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, and David’s friend and fellow clinician, Noah, both of whom also have ADHD to talk about different types of ADHD. We don’t remember all the stuff we have to do to leave the house. Isabelle describes a detailed whiteboard and just how long it took to get into the habit of not forgetting things like lip balm. David puts everything into his bag at night. Isabelle has to do a one-touch rule. Noah’s and Bobby’s work bag are empty. Bobby’s really into minimizing things, which David points out is a wonderful intervention, especially for inattentive type— decision fatigue. Noah does this for going out, always ordering a blackened chicken sandwich. How exhausting it is to make decisions all the time. Noah’s experience in a blind restaurant. Bobby’s picky eating is connected to something ADHD-related—hypersensitivity around texture. David’s experience of this is big after decades of vegetarianism, experiencing the texture of meat for the first time (bacon and hot dogs are great. Other meat for him? Not so much). Isabelle references the Paradox of Choice book (TLDR) and describes the phenomena of randomly remembering facts she’s read, but struggling to remember what she read on command. Recognizing that when there is an overabundance of choice, we think we made the wrong one (or are left more disatisfied) because we always think we could’ve picked better. This relates to Isabelle’s reaction to Tinder as something that makes her nauseous thinking about it: too many choices. Same with old school diner menus. Or Cheesecake Factory menus. David agrees. Isabelle describes novelty seeking with food, whereas Bobby wants the same thing. David went to Superdawg and got everything on the menu he wanted because he couldn’t make a decision. Noah would go there, deliberate what to get for 20 minutes, and leave with nothing. Why do we all sound so different and yet similar? We’re talking about the distinctions between inattentive and impulsive ADHD types. What about combined type? Depends on the mastery of the environment: the more mastery, the more impulsive we can be, the less mastery, the more inattentive.

What is Superdawg? If you’re in and around Chicago, you’re welcome to check it out. If you’re not, it’s still a fun place to look into.  From the bottom of our pure beefy hearts. 

Paradox of Choice - book by Barry Schwartz (TLDR for Isabelle but an interesting summary appears on wikipedia). 

DEFINITIONS

ADHD types explained through how we order at a restaurant:

• inattentive type: struggles to figure out what to order, stares at menu (accommodations: always orders the same thing or same type of thing, asking the server for their choice/having the chef or someone else choose for you)
• impulsive type: orders three different entrees (to try them all), or the novel/strange seeming thing on the menu (accommodations: finding new places to eat or food bars where you can throw on whatever you want in that moment)
• combination type: see above and experience BOTH, often depending on your level of mastery/comfort (more mastery in the environment, the more your impulsivity shows up). 

Decision fatigue: the more decisions we make, the more our quality of decisions (or ability to do so well) deteriorates. Too many decisions can lead to an overwhelming feeling, burnout and poor decisions. Avoiding the complexity of decisions, can be an adaptive tool for individuals to preserve brain power for more important decisions, especially when the inattentive-type ADHD experience is loud. Here's an article on how to notice when it's happening to you.

Hypersensitivity around texture: some textures are going to make people feel more yucky inside than you would think they could. Often times it can be really helpful to honor these sensitivities, and not try to push through them unless there's serious impact on food and nutrition.

Here's a quick article on how to cope with hypersensitivities to sound, texture, taste, smell, etc. 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

(originally episode 08! rerun for your holiday break enjoyment!) How do we separate a task from our emotions about it? Especially when it comes to our own battles with procrastination? Isabelle is struggling with this and Bobby, her husband, is curious to hear more. David breaks it down like this: let’s say the task is running 5 miles in 60 minutes, which sounds very hard to Bobby. Does it matter what you’re wearing? What time of day you go? If it’s raining or not? There’s lots of things we can get caught up in the ‘emotionality’: I don’t have the right clothes, I don’t like the weather, etc. The emotionality is the stuff that we get caught up in that doesn’t matter. Our view of how it needs to be done that gets in the way. Can you walk while watching a video, for example. Isabelle tries to break a sweat once a day. But it only counts if she goes to the exercise class she signed up for. Bobby asks: why does a brain with ADHD is likely to procrastinate in the first place and then why do we discount doing it differently? ADHD individual needs a specific amount of stimulation to do a task; not enough or too much, they need to self-medicate. The emotions we use to self-medicate include anger, anxiety or excitement, etc. Medication can give you the stimulation without the anger, anxiety, or excitement. We procrastinate because it boosts the stakes, gives us a threat, so every moment of working on the task is alleviating the stress so there’s no delay in gratification, we’re instantly rewarded (yay dopamine!) for working on it. If you had worked on it two weeks earlier, you wouldn’t feel any different because there was no stress/threat you were relieving, you wouldn’t get that feeling of reward. So let’s teach people how to procrastinate better, rather than trying to undo it. What if you knew you weren’t going to work on the report until Saturday—what could you prep for Saturday, instead of beating yourself up for not working on it until then, if that’s the sweet spot of stress/crunch time for you? Your brain needs to experience that threat to feel that relief. A person with ADHD can be an angry, anxious, etc. — I’m going to be a monster when I’m focusing on this, so what can we do to ask for what we need? Is it easier to find a quiet place to be a monster or not become a monster (let’s say you get angry when you work yourself up to focus on something)? Bobby and Isabelle share that they would set each other off and both need accommodations in their relationships, but realizing that the meta-awareness of knowing it connects to ADHD and what they need has helped them navigate situations and help get out of each other’s way rather than asking that person to magically change. David points out that we’re normalizing that folx with ADHD can all become monsters in this sense and that not all monsters are bad—you could be angry/anxious to the max and find ways to create room for that that minimize the hurt and ill effects on those around you. There’s lots of relational trauma for people with ADHD and other forms of learning differences. You see everyone sit down and do something one way and you do it differently, your brain tells you it’s because you’re stupid/not following the rules/not doing it right, etc. Right around between ages 7-11, kids' peers normalize their world rather than their parents. For example, how are relaxation and self care portrayed? As wine and spa time—what if you don’t like wine and baths/spas (for example, like Isabelle). David makes the point that everyone else is doing it right, we’re just not taking in the input right. Maybe no more boring baths. Something needs to move. What we can do with the optical illusion of snow falling or a shower rain falling. The ADHD brain is meant and designed to procrastinate, but people with ADHD are made to believe their thoughts are naturally wrong. Healing comes from acknowledging this.

Does cranberry juice prevent UTI’s? Yes (and no).

• Side note, one thing Isabelle learned on this internet rabbit hole about cranberry juice and UTI’s was this: “Cranberry is a term derived from the contraction of “crane berry.” This name is derived from the nickname of the bilberry flower, which, when it withers, is similar in appearance to the head and neck of the sand crane, a bird that often feeds on the berries of this plant.” Who knew? For the full fascinating scientific article about cranberries and UTIs, click here.
  
  

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS

• Task: what you’re trying to do - the ‘work’ of a group or a person.
  • for example: I am finishing my project this weekend.
• Emotionality: what you do to prepare to do a task - beliefs/fears/assumptions about what you’re doing
  • for example: I’m doing it wrong/right, I always procrastinate, big fear you’ll never get it done, dream that someone will come and save you from having to do it, etc.
• PROCRASTINATION: this is the behavior that occurs in between the assignment of a task, and working on the task. This is waiting to the last minute, or what we do when we don't want to start work.

Why do folx with ADHD procrastinate? Waiting for the last minute, or delaying starting can be self medication for someone with ADHD. Excitement, Anxiety, Anger are all feelings that trigger stimulate us (our heart rate increases). Once this happens we remove any delay in reinforcement, as all acts towards work completion reduce that feeling/stimulation. It can also really increase the feeling of winning, if deadlines are met.

What do you mean by 'monster'?
We all have a monster part. Our monster is the part of us that comes out when something changes in a way we don’t like or we don’t get our way; in other words, it is our extinction burst (see below). The trick is to not pretend it doesn’t happen or somehow shame it away, but instead make space for it—even plan on it showing up—and reduce the impact on innocent others.

• Example: You really don’t want to write a paper, but you have to. As you work through the heightened stimulation you need to switch from prep work to actually working on it, your behavior is changing and you don’t like it (it’s so hard when you’re not getting the thrill of something novel, or that you enjoy, and really with procrastination you’re just getting the relief of a stressor being reduced). SO, you may turn into a ‘monster,’ — get irritated, annoyed, angry at anyone near you for getting in the way as you settle in to sit down to write it—which is ALSO giving you dopamine because emotions like anger, anxiety and excitement stimulate us (by way of building adrenaline, which ends up leading to more dopamine, among other things). Suddenly you have what you need to switch from prep to work, but—if you know this is how you work sometimes, you could let the people around you know/get out of dodge/have them be in other rooms, for example, so you’re not inadvertently getting angry/anxious AT them (it’ll happen regardless)—and that way you won’t get the double reinforcement that you’re some monster all the time ;).

Extinction burst: Connected to behavioral theory, when you’re no longer getting the reinforcement you want, your behavior dramatically increases in frequency, duration, and intensity as y...

How do you survive traveling with ADHD? What about traveling with children, particularly small children? And what happens when you find yourself rushing, leaving things until the last minute, and forgetting your charger once again? David and Isabelle swap stories and share specific tips to traveling and also discuss WHY ARE THERE SOCK NUBBINS AND TAGS. Seriously.
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There can be so much pressure to have a Hallmark, picture-postcard perfect holiday and it’s so important to revise those expectations and think about what you actually want to do, for example, maybe it’s “we go to the this house, tolerate everyone for 45 minutes, you grab the turkey, I grab the mashed potatoes, and we leave.” And what about the uncomfortable holiday clothes? Isabelle laughs and mentions a brilliant SNL fake ad for Macy’s that’s all about children’s clothing and how uncomfortable it is. David describes this might be where task meets emotionality (for definition, see below)—is the task of the holidays spending time with family? David remembers the holidays being hard, everyone fighting on the way there and then fine when they got home, and wearing uncomfortable clothes, and just wanting to leave and it being awful. Isabelle remembers coming home so late and it was freezing and trying to sleep in the back seat, freezing. David had the experience going to his partner’s holiday celebrations and—they don’t have ADHD—everyone got along, hung out, sang songs, played piano—and this is real? Friendsgiving is a thing, and you can make choices, what you do for holidays is a choice: like winter is a choice. Anytime you feel trapped or caught in something, changing the language to “I’m choosing to do blank because blank…” with what needs your meeting with it, changes it from you “have to go see Meemaw” You can take the shoulds, musts, and have-to and change it to choices. And maybe Meemaw doesn’t care what you wear, she just wants to see you. WHY ARE THERE TAGS IN CLOTHING? And NUBBINS ON SOCKS? We have evolved so many incredible things, we have AI, we have genome sequencing, and we have sock nubbins, and who invented pantyhose and shapewear. David likes shape wear because the underarmour stuff he wears is nice and tight. Isabelle describes that it’s more designed to smush you in and sometimes it’s great—this is maybe Isabelle’s trauma after being a 6 ft woman at 14 year old, so she was fitting into shape wear and pantyhose as a kid and hated it so much and it was so uncomfortable. David always got all these hand-me-down socks that were in a constant state of yawn—now David gets the really tight socks that stay up all day, “look at you sock, staying up all day!” And transitioning back to travel—and sometimes travel is really hard because we’re pushing ourselves harder than we should. Having the toolbox is just as important on the airplane or airport, or knowing how long you’re waiting with a toolbox. Whoever’s doing the traveling, your self care is the most important: you can’t control your kids being miserable, they will be, you have to put your oxygen mask, go at your pace, go at your tolerance. Kids will fall apart. You need to be there for them when they do. So what do you need to be there for them? Maybe it’s a treat, maybe it’s slowing down—take care of you. Pack the day before. And always include an extra day back at home before transitioning back. You can change the day back—the end is always going to be the end of the vacation, but you being able to have a different re-entry ritual into your day to day can be game changing. Isabelle shares some tips from her own front line experiences, such as when driving from Indianapolis from Nashville as part of moving, when she forgot the iPad…and everything else, and her kid was stuck in the way back for hours bored out of their mind. Needless to say, iPads are last steps, so it’s a plan B, but it forces them to have lots of plan A—and on this trip, she forgot all the plan B’s and A’s. And everyone is going to have a meltdown—Isabelle, as mom, will also have a breakdown. It doesn’t matter how prepared you are, travel will break you at some point. Travel with kids is courting brilliant memories of chaos, so she anticipates and plans on her having a breakdown. So she tells herself that “I’m a good mom who’s reached her limit.” You’re trained from babyhood to meet their needs all the time, but it’s a set up, the game is rigged, and part of the rigging is us thinking we’re never going to lose it ourselves. Maybe it’s the rule, not the exception. What about outsourcing, like checking your bags curbside, strapping your kid into the carseat on the plane (because they’re used to it and airplane seatbelts do nothing). Be kind to yourself. There’s also this idea that a vacation and a trip with kids are two separate things. The labor does not change, but increases, but the expectation for fun and frivolity is also increased, but maybe change the expectations inside. Also okay if it’s extra hard because it actually really is. Take the wins. David names that it’s very hard to hold dialectics, to opposing truths: you can love your kids and they can be too much, really hard, really frustrating. You need to find yourself a support group that can validate all the truths. For David, being a child who had ADHD, and seeing people with kids travel, and typically things feel better when there isn’t as much pressure, when you’re not rushing at the last minute, and have everything you need. Accepting that all of those things are going to be harder with ADHD and smiling when those things don't happen is the key. Accept that win, when you actually remember the charger. We can also flip the shame spiral into gratitude because you can maybe get the thing when you arrive, and David has needed to buy pretty much everything on arrival. Anything important, the things you can’t live without, phone stuff, medication, certain items, should be carry-ons. If ever possible, don’t check a bag, have a very compacted carry on. David is so grateful for you shiny people out there that send us really incredible messages, and he’s really excited for our next season, as is Isabelle. We’re going to bring guests on next season, and Isabelle is super excited and grateful, too, that it’s building into an actual conversation, and so cool to be able to have that moment. Let’s all raise a fist in the air as Judd Nelson in Breakfast Club at the right pace and the right angle. We’re closing out this year with these holiday episodes, we’ve gotta turn around practice self-care, taking a couple of weeks off, and coming back in the next year with a new intro, new guests, and same ol' David and Isabelle--we can't wait to talk more, Team Shiny! 

SNL Fake Macy’s commercial for children’s uncomfortable clothing

DAVID'S DEFINITIONS

TASK V. EMOTIONALITY

• Task: what you’re trying to do - the ‘work’ of a group or a person. 
  • for example: I am finishing my project this weekend.
• Emotionality: what you do to prepare to do a task - beliefs/fears/assumptions about what you’re doing
  • for example: I’m doing it wrong/right, I always procrastinate, big fear you’ll never get it done, dream that someone will come and save you from having to do it, etc. 

Traveling survival tips

• Prep your go-bag, tool kit (and consider several plans, not just one,...

How do you survive family dinners? Sitting at a table until everyone is done? Overstimulation? Sticky conversations and setting boundaries?  David and Isabelle talk concrete tips for getting through the holidays, and even enjoying them—and the truth behind ear worm songs’ lyrics that may pop your Thanksgiving Day Parade Spiderman balloons. 
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David and Isabelle name that any time you’re meeting with family, traveling, disrupting routine, and then you throw in kids—how do we do this? Let’s start with dinner, and then work our way back to how you get there. Whenever you’re going out to eat with family…family is a tricky word. Family describes ritual—people who get together at different times, don’t have to be related. Whoever is in your network, where you go. Kids really need help knowing the story behind people, understanding the story behind Uncle Jack and Aunt Sue—it can help create connecting moments by throwing in novelty. Kids can be really honest and if it’s boring, they may ask: “Why are you boring?” Also, we love Aunt Sue. Partners might use this, too, not just kids. Let alone how family stuff can be so loaded, you may not want to share the same room with some people, there can be anxiety, and anticipatory dread. Part when you’re going to go visit v. hosting—how do we cope with the different layers of anxiety. With a heavier family situation—bring the toolbox, especially with kids. Before you leave, have a backpack, help your child pick toys (even if they’re 14), headphones, and talk about where you can use your phone or play games. What about the interesting power struggle of having kids sit at the table until everyone is finished eating—let’s think about that differently, because sitting for that long is so hard for kids, and adults, with ADHD—and why is hosting so FUN, because you’re always translating your restlessness into effective hosting. Most people with ADHD fall into really good host and amazing networker, and we can also know how to help people feel connected and welcome because we know how hard it can be to be isolated. Take breaks with your child. Be honest about how long it’s going to be (like 3.5 hours, not "just 15 more minutes"), and be realistic about what battles you’re going to pick with your child.  Sometimes when we think about social norms we’re trying to show and build the frustration tolerance in our children—we place such a load and raise the stakes so much for the holidays, and we forget that that is a set up with kids. The more you raise the expectations and raise the stakes, the more it’s asking for disaster. For the parents who feel that pressure, judgment, and family rules—really hard to have an unreasonable expectations and have them passed on. Can be helped to know that expectations are resentments waiting to happen—and let the table know the expectation we’re actually dealing with (eg. We’re trying to help kid finish food, as opposed to sit quietly for an hour). Have a wonderful moment with your family, knowing that the most unconventional moments are the memory makers. Also can be really overstimulating, and have a plan for what to do then ahead of time, and how to manage that. How do we recognize we are overstimulated? Isabelle went to Costco and only realized 3 hours later how she was overstimulated. We’re all going to feel things differently, but certain things will always be overstimulating: loud noise (increases heart rate) and triggers your fear response. Think about that moment you left a loud concert or house party and that moment when you walk into the cold night air and then you take a breath—knowing that we’re overstimulated is really hard to notice (want to work on with a therapist or close friend)—we can tolerate the heat getting turned up really high and we don’t notice it until it’s at a certain point. David knows he’s overstimulated when he’s worried about breaking things or bumping into people. When Isabelle starts to feel she’s obstacle coursing it, that’s when she’s overstimulated. Sometimes being overstimulated is really good, or really bad—it’s not necessarily one thing or another: it's what’s appropriate for the moment. David will sometimes look at his partner where she’s like “we don’t have time for that.” Getting signs and knowing these things, like with your kid—“I noticed that you were walking around with your hands balled up”—“can I check in on you at Meemaw’s house when you’re hands are clenched, maybe we can go on a walk with me?” Walks are important intervention: changes environment, smells open up, visual stimulation, movement. Or have a place in Dodge—a weighted blanket in the basement, watch a couple of TikTok’s. Isabelle describes the giant mega Christmas party they’d attend that included all these pockets of peace and respite—like smoke breaks (side note: folx with ADHD being drawn to the stimulant with nicotine, but also the habit of taking breaks with a few different people). How valuable it might be not only notice your kid’s cues and give them prompting, but also how it might feel for your kid “I’m getting overstimulated, you know I notice my jaw is tight, and I feel like I’m going to bump into things a lot, I need to go for a walk, want to come with me?” We want to make “Calm Down!” not a swear word. It’s usually the opposite effect—we’re often not saying this to ourselves, we’re telling other people to do it. Do it with a partner, the more premeditated it is—you can be predictable and take a break. Boundaries are not personal, even though they almost always feel that way. David uses the example of the briefcase where he keeps his notes—if he saw anyone going near it, he’d freak out, because it has to do with his boundary around client confidentiality, but it’s not about who is doing it (whether it’s a stranger or a partner). You can set the boundary just by changing the subject. We take boundaries personally, we also think boundaries are about what we’re asking the other person to do, when actually—(pause for effect)—the boundary is what you’re going to do. For example, Isabelle will find herself being asked for therapeutic advice at family functions, but the boundary when she doesn’t want someone to talk about the thing, but it’s the moment she changes the subject, walks away, etc. it’s the moment where I actually set the boundary for myself. It’s not about getting the person to stop talking, it’s giving them something to chew on, like a sandwich, so they can’t talk about it. And another caveat: as inveterate people pleaser, Isabelle’s discomfort shoots up, and it doesn’t feel better to her to set a boundary, but it’s a short term huge burst of discomfort that she’s trading for a long haul sense of self-betrayal, or being worn down, or all the bigger consequences that come from not having a boundary. You tend to have to set boundaries again and again, and it rarely gets easier, you just get more well versed at how you do it. This reminds David of putting on sunscreen—it’s so gross, he hates the greasy stuff, but it’s better than getting the sunburn. The boundary setting can be announced or not announced. And one of the powers of ADHD: engage ADHD distraction mode when someone starts talking about something you’re not about. Like do Delorians need special garages so the doors would still open? Like moths to a flame, we might pay more attention to someone when you’re annoying you, or you’re preparing to debate them. David’s method is singing George of the Jungle to get rid of the earworm. Isabelle thinks about the muzak track in the elevator of your brain, and her’s, since childhood, h...

Why are some of us anxious and some of us excited (or a combo platter of both)? And is it possible to turn anxiety, or anger, or shame spirals, into something else?  David and Isabelle swap stories, talk transgenerational trauma, and get curious about how we are socialized to mask and behave...and that perhaps the solution for being overly apologetic lies in the midwestern gem: "ope.”
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Isabelle starts by expanding on the idea of how you think about things, how that inner landscape can connect into tapping into norepinephrine—if you’re practicing going “I see you anxiety, I see what you’re trying to do, and I’m so grateful I have you because it helps me…” what it means to not shame or blame yourself for having an instinct to worry versus what you do know to be true. Short of someone giving you direct feedback, you don’t have data either way, so saying hi to your anxiety or feeling, and taking a few breaths to be grateful. Then when you do have a tough moment, like a hard meeting at work, you won’t beat yourself up about it as much. David even says: you can skip the shame spiral. Norepinephrine is so much about the inertia and movement of something. People with kids who have ADHD either have a very very clean room, or very very messy room. For those with a messy room, they’re like “where to start? Do I burn it and start over again?” Then you give them one specific thing to do, they earn dopamine from that one thing. So you build momentum by building a feedback loop between dopamine and norepinephrine, because you judge yourself on a very reasonable scale. If you make a broad request, it’s like “whaaa?” If you say “pick up your legos” or “Hunt for all the legos you can, you have 7 minutes, you earn 3 snarf points? What’s a snarf point? I’ll tell you in 7 minutes”—you now have specificity, and time pressure, and reward. Isabelle describes that she lives in the anxious side of the spectrum, and David lives in the excitement of it. If anxiety and excitement are the same physiological symptoms, how can you replace the two things? Isabelle wonders at her anxiety, which she is not bummed about, but knows that it’s a part of her, and also knows that it has served her and her people across the generations—like she feels less anxious when she has a very stocked pantry or fridge. How can that be turned into excitement? We’re talking about the interplay of epigenetics, and the interplay of how you lean into the anxiety. If you’re in the United States, you’d be hard pressed to not have a transgenerational history of trauma, and as men and women (and non-binary folx), we are treated differently and are rewarded for going to anger or anxiety.  Men are traditionally reinforced for getting angry in the U.S.—it’s reinforcing for them, and it’s not great, and in the same way anxiety may be reinforced for women. Not that it’s so cut and dry and binary-based. David elaborates that his impulsivity has been viewed as confidence, whereas for women, it can be viewed as overemotionality, and can be shamed, or put in corners. David had to work really hard to find excitement, he was way more in that angry place, fighting any system, any person he could. When you get angry, you feel yucky afterwards for like two hours, and he met really good friends, had an amazing brother, and had good supports, and a lot of people don’t have that. And he had a choice in that moment whether to get anxious or excited. Isabelle is so grateful David shared that about himself and felt so seen, really resonating with the idea that whereas David’s impulsivity was viewed as confidence, hers was read as overreacting, or overdramatic. She describes how she makes big gestures and shrieks and has big reactions to things and how often she has to blunt them or try to mask them in her daily life. She also recognizes the layers of privilege she carries as a white, cisgendered woman, that she has gotten a lot of reinforcement for her anxiety. Her asking, let’s say, her kid’s teacher a detail-oriented question seems almost assumed, that she would be the one who needs to be vigilant about the details of things, whereas her husband, Bobby, is seen as winning the day if he gets the kids to school, even though he is more effective at this. How we’re socially viewed impacts how we think about it—perhaps Bobby running late is viewed as he was busy doing important things, whereas Isabelle names she has been conditioned to be extra apologetic and nervous and take it on as some awful thing that she’s running late. David goes into Tavistock group dynamics stuff (see show notes below)—based around the work of Wilfred Bion—where people learn how they are in a group. David was in a group and someone came in late and were overly explaining it, the group ended up attacking her about all her apologies—David named there is an art to being late, and it is this: acknowledging the inconvenience, being very small, and apologizing at the end. Don’t talk too much or give too many specifics, just say “my bad” and be quiet and wait to figure out what’s happening. David and Isabelle both agree that they are habitually late, and hate being late, but will be late because of who they are. They just will be. Isabelle names an old meme: “Sorry I was late, it’s because of who I am as a person.” She mentions connecting with her friends, one of whom says instead of saying “I’m so sorry” for being late, reserve sorries for deep relational healing moments where you feel harm was caused, intentionally or not. For example, being late, or accidentally bumping into someone, or dropping something off late—is not always the context for an “I’m sorry,” but instead, you could use the phrase “thank you for your patience.” David agrees, except for the bumping into someone else part—he has to say he’s sorry. Isabelle thinks a simple midwestern “ope!” Will suffice, which David recently witnessed himself doing in the wild. 

Ope: (according to Urban Dictionary) - a midwestern U.S. way of acknowledging another person or thing they have encountered. Ope! Sorry I bumped into you, Jim. Ope, there’s my wallet. Ope! I missed my bus! 

(added by us): Also known as an interjection of surprise and implied apology.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Epigenetics - from CDC “Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work. Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence.” (source: CDC)

Transgenerational trauma: from wikipedia
“is the psychological and physiological effects that the trauma experienced by people has on subsequent generations in that group.” (source: Wikipedia) Imagine the collective trauma experienced by groups of people surviving slavery, wars, famine, natural disasters, etc. and the ways in which epigenetic (see definition above) may alter the way even our genes can express themselves and how we adapt and respond to stressors. For more on this, check out the pioneering work of Yehuda and Lehrner (Article on intergenerational transmission of trauma)

Dopamine deficiency? ADHD is often understood as neurobiological (brain) difference, that includes lower levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter (messenger chemical) in...

The first thing David wants to talk about how amazing Dolly Parton is, how he’s heard more amazing things that she’s done in the last six months and it blows his mind.. Isabelle references the podcast Dolly Parton’s America, about how Jad Abumrad’s (of Radiolab’s) dad befriended Dolly Parton, and just how beloved she is and why that might be. David names Imagination Library, which gives free books to kids 5 and under every month to encourage literacy, because her own dad never had a chance to learn how to learn how to read. Isabelle really wants to go to Dollywood, and David’s partner Robin went, and it was amazing and is like Orlando in the Smokies. The other thing David wants to talk about is norepinephrine, a neurotransmitter that plays a key role in ADHD and it’s almost a crime we haven’t mentioned it before, focusing so much on dopamine. Dopamine is still really important, but both are. Imagine that neurotransmitters are like a light switch, they are on or off (whereas hormones are like a thermostat, you change the temperature and then it slowly brings the body back up to it). Dopamine is the reward or satisfaction feeling, it’s sex drugs and rock n’ roll, it’s raising the stakes and feeling the risk and then doing the thing anyway. For example, as you procrastinate and then do the task, you feel dopamine as you inch closer to getting your task done, because it’s giving you the feeling of achievement, but as soon as you’re done, the dopamine is gone. As folx with ADHD, we are dopamine deficient, so we’re kind of starving for it, it’s a little bump we’re getting as opposed to a full high of dopamine. David uses the example of researching a knife, and he went down this massive research wormhole, and he buys the knife, and the moment it came, it was like “Yay, it’s here.” (Crickets chirping). The shine and newness goes away, and he still likes the life, the handoff in that moment is from dopamine being the lead thing, and then norepinephrine comes in. So if we’re hunter-gatherers, the dopamine comes in when you’re hunting, as Isabelle points out, it’d be evolutionarily beneficial to have the process be rewarding, and the moment you hunt and then you feel productive, that’s norepinephrine kicking in, that feeling of being productive. It connects to motivation, and the thoughts that you have, how you think about things, and Nora, as David calls norepinephrine, is amazing, she is involved with the self-talk in your head, and when there’s too much, there is negative self-talk cycles we can get into. Motivation isn’t always pleasant, because we can shame ourselves or beat ourselves up. Isabelle names that she thought the I did it feeling is dopamine. It can be hard to get things started or finish them, using the gatherer metaphor, it can be rough getting out to find the berry bush, but then you get the dopamine once you found the bush and are picking the berries, and then again the let down once you’ve found them all—Isabelle wonders if it’s a pleasant feeling, having this norepinephrine trade off? David names it can easily be manipulated by how you think about things. If you feel like you did nothing but brush your teeth today, then that’s how you feel. But if you brushed your teeth after just breaking a leg and having food poisoning, you’d feel differently about it, you’d feel so grateful you did the thing—you get the burst from feeling validated. Isabelle keeps clarifying dopamine is the thrill of the hunt or the chase or the online shopping cart building, or researching cutting boards (which synchronicitously with David’s knife-researching example, Isabelle is now doing), ends once you order it, is norepinephrine the moment when you’ve ordered the thing. The dopamine goes down once you’ve finished the task, it goes away because it makes you want the next thing (it pushes you to seek that reward again), like David ordering all the video games, and only playing with two of the games. Isabelle is still confused: is it the feeling that comes after the thing happens that forces us to pause and reflect on what just happened. It’s more complicated than this, so David is being purposefully vague, but it’s connected to our perception of productivity, worth, and work. If dopamine is what helped you get through the day, norepinephrine is how do you feel about the day you just did, it’s around wins and accomplishments. If dopamine is the lights, norepinephrine is evaluating the light show. David thinks about it in his life, there are some days where he mowed the lawn, went to hardware store, saw a friend, did laundry, “what a productive day!” And then he feels the WOOO that’s norepinephrine. Dopamine is really connected with being distracted by auditory outside things, whereas too much norepinephrine, you are distracted by internal judgments. If you’re ruminating a lot, or evaluating what you just said to the friend, replaying your day a lot, that’s norepinephrine, and if you have too much it can get you caught in that. Our brains have a solid negativity bias, we pay more attention to doubt, fear, uncertainty, and if we’re ruminating and analyzing a lot, it would be a set up to be negative. Norepinephrine is what we practice: if we’re very practiced in feeling anxiety, we would be reinforced to anxiously review the things. The practice when you don’t need it for it to actually happen when you do, you have to make it a reflex, it would be take too much energy. David uses the example when driving, he sees a car swerving in front of him, he practices thinking they have to go to the bathroom, or they have an emergency, that’s why they’re driving so wildly, as opposed to thinking they are awful people, because he truly does not have data in either direction.

All the Dolly Parton things

Jad Abumrad and Shima Oliaee’s podcast: Dolly Parton’s America

Dolly Parton’s ties to Moderna Vaccine (she gave $1M to Vanderbilt, which helped fund three pandemic-related research projects including the one that helped develop the Moderna vaccine; source NPR)  

Dolly Parton’s Imagination Library

Dollywood

Our brain’s negativity bias and interview with one of the people who researches this and wrote a book on it (article from Berkeley's Greater Good magazine)

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Dopamine deficiency? ADHD is often understood as neurobiological (brain) difference, that includes lower levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter (messenger chemical) in our brain that gives us feelings of satisfaction and reward—the feeling of YOU ARE DOING IT… Another way of viewing it is a neurotypical person has a shot-glass-sized need for dopamine and so little bits of dopamine fill it up enough to feel that satiation, whereas a person with ADHD has a pint-glass-sized need for dopamine. At times, you need a lot more dopamine and are starving for it, but at other times, you have so much dopamine it is so rewarding (and perhaps the reward feeling while eating that doughn...

David describes how when we hyper focus and launch ourselves into something, it can be hard to finish, because the hardest part is behind us. He heard then governor Gavin Newsom speak and he describe how there comes a point in running where you just have to keep kicking, you keep kicking your feet forward. For neurodivergent folx to recognize that we have to sit through the hard thing and just do it—it becomes important to honor just how painful and difficult that is. Self-soothing and grounding are helpful, but watching a show isn’t going to help you clean your room, watching the show would be a really good reward from cleaning your room. You need to offers when you’ve done something terrible, you need to be able to put your feet up and relax, but after you ran the race, not before you race at all. What does your system need to be effective? Are you angry or anxious for a reason, do you need to be stimulated? That’s what you need to be stimulated. Knowing that requires metacognition, knowing what you need for each moment. Isabelle describes her own difficulties delaying gratification, with black and white thinking and sequencing, and then the need to seek comfort, and wonders about the stats of folx with ADHD having more substance misuse, higher rates of divorce, accidents, etc. but as David points out, we do do more flips. But what is the warning or worst case scenario if you don’t clean your room, but what if the consequences are worse? David jumps into the substance abuse or misuse idea and wonders: if you have a marginalized, underserved, neurodivergent population and is neglected by a system--and they're using substances--and you think there's something wrong with them? For people with ADHD, a lot of people can fall into cannibis, or alcohol, or cocaine. For example, when you pour a depressant like alcohol into your system, your body tries to compensate by boosting your stimulation, because your body is seeking homeostasis. So if you don’t drink after drinking after drinking, your brain is released stimulants. Cocaine and cannibis are stimulants—and cannibis, as a dissociative stimulant—so folx with ADHD tend towards substances that are giving them the stimulation they are needing. When you look at people who struggle with delaying gratification, increased pain, more social rejection—wow, drinking can help them numb the pain and then they are doing stimulants when they would be prescribed stimulants to help with their medication condition. David sees this as a humanistic push toward health by people who have been given bad information. Our population is highly at risk because we’re in a lot of pain. David wants to highlight the pain we live in. “Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments” and changing it for neurodivergent folx: “expectations are premeditated resentments.”  All of our expectations, because of our black and white thinking, are that things are going to take away the pain, make us feel better, not hurt anymore, not be anxious anymore…when people make a decision that’s like “I’m going to bomb this test so I never have to think about it again” we get you, we understand that’s pain, you are in a lot of pain. There’s self-soothing to feel better to take a test, or bungee jump off a cliff, but when you’re in so much pain you look for ways to self-soothe your way through your entire life, we need to look at your expectations and get you the help you need. You are not broken, you are being serviced by the wrong technicians of the world, you are being given leaded gas, you have square tires, we need to get them off—it’s not your fault. It’s not David's fault that he misread that podcast that he screened, and he needed to be able to challenge it and face it, and lean on his support system. A lot of us have more courage than people understand, because we have a lot of anxiety and fear—if you’re not scared, it can’t be courage. Isabelle is so grateful for David naming this, and while neither one of them is a substance abuse expert, it is an important reminder to all of us. Isabelle thinks of the quote that sometimes when you think you’re the “crazy” one, it’s actually a very sane response to a “crazy” world. What is the appropriate response to what you are facing, and nobody told you this was in the water, and you’ve been drinking it your whole life, and the protestant U.S. work ethic of: “good things happen to you because you prove your worth, you earn it all” logic and it so does not match up with anyone’s experience, the “just world” hypothesis does not match up. Because it flips on you, if you did all the good things you missed the suffering, but if you suffer, it’s something you must work on it and solve it and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. How much work is loaded on neurodivergent folx. We are not given the accurate operating instructions and we encounter more intensity of pain than people understand. There’s a lot of neglect in the world, we neglect things and pretend they’re fine. Of the drugs you can use in the U.S.- Caffeine, alcohol, and cannibis—nothing’s all bad. But using a substance to escape a feeling doesn’t help. Because your brain likes substances, and it will find the feelings to make you use it more often. So use them if you’re going to use them, but don’t justify it with a feeling. For Isabelle, this can tie back to what is self-soothing and what is avoidance. Sometimes keeping busy keeps you from feeling the feeling. Sometimes the task is not cleaning your room, it’s recognizing how much grief you’re in, sitting in the break up you just had, or facing the fact your parents are who you wanted them to be, the job you wanted was not as awesome as you thought it would be, it’s developing the frustration and distress tolerance for an emotional state that might beg for soothing away. You could always justify soothing it away, but how can you recognize and rise above and have a meta moment—are there feelings I’m running from? What am I used to run from those things? How can I build up the things that would help me tolerate them? David counters: how can I sit in them? We have to accept these things, not approve of them. The moment you stop escaping those feelings, all those feelings will come back. As Isabelle often hears it put, “what you resist, persists.”  Now how to transition away from this? We could say “Schwarma!” And anything else. We could cite pickleball. Or we could say: this is complex. You’re not alone. You’ve got a family. An LD/ADHD family. We’re here for it! Isabelle thinks about this other therapist who works with trauma and kids and parenting, and how she describes how you can’t ever really help your child stop experiencing the pain, but what you can do is be there with them through it. You can do that with something that happened when you weren’t there. And the way you do that is by showing up and listening. Saying things like “I believe you.” “I hear you.” “Tell me more.” And just tolerating it, and the thing she said, for most of us, when we’re really little, we learn there are certain emotional states that we learn you have to deal with alone, because people are scared, or don’t know what to do. The difference is not how you can handle an emotion, it’s how you can practice not recognizing you don’t have to be alone in that emotion. Whatever you’re dealing with, to know you’re not alone, is not nothing, it doesn’t take the emotion or pain away, but there are people ready and willing and already there who want to listen. And it matters to us to hear from you. The reason we can be so vulnerable is because we’re hearing from you and knowing you’re listen...

Isabelle and David check in and Isabelle describes trying Pickleball, and the way that physical activity is wonderful but you don’t know you’re tired until it’s too late. David and Isabelle then try something new, in that they are revisiting their previous episode and what it brought up in each of them. David listened to the preview of the previous episode (Ep032: When is hyperfocus your friend?) and he felt like he talked too much and interrupted and did a poor job and felt like maybe they shouldn’t release the previous episode. Isabelle names that David often reframes and revisits things that bring Isabelle shame. She did not read the same into the last episode, and didn’t even notice this behavior, however it was useful to her to hear David struggling with some self-doubt or shame. She also wonders if interrupting or talking over each other is not just something that happens when neurodivergent folx get excited. David agrees, and was ready to revisit the episode and his shame response in order to connect to the mission of the podcast, to be inclusive, to not be perfect, to show the process and leave in mistakes. He left his first listen thinking he had missed things, and he was wrong, and rude to Isabelle. And so he listened to it again and…he heard a different episode today. He kept listening for the awful things he remembered and realized he hates that all the stuff he talks about not having accurate self-assessment are true for him, too. When he heard it first, he was tired, environmental variables were stacked against him having a good read of this, and he had a negative slant of it. A base level is if someone he trusts says “it’s okay,” then it’s okay. So he trusted Isabelle when she said no. David remembers what he was trying to say about intermittent fasting, which is that it gave him structure about what he wanted to eat that he didn’t have before and it made decision making around eating easier. But he also noticed that he was being more black and white in a moment that requires more grey, around Isabelle’s discussion of self-soothing. Isabelle sees the meta-layers in what David is naming, because she relates deeply to the sense that you feel you have done something wrong or it’s a misstep or you could’ve done better and then when someone gives you feedback it’s okay, do you trust it or not (and she does not trust it, it would be hard to convince herself it’s okay). Her inner critic/self-judgment/self-criticism is loud, and she remembers that David named that folx who are neurodivergent can struggle with inaccurate self assessment, often leaning toward the negative side. With the setup of so many knocks to your self-esteem and devaluing your self it’s hard to disagree with that even when you have evidence to the contrary—though isn’t this something that all people are impacted by, neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, that their mindset and mental state will impact how they perceive they did? The difference is that for folx who are neurodivergent, for anyone who learns or thinks differently, we don’t have models. We don’t have a litmus test to hold our behavior to, that signals to us what's appropriate. One of the things that happens is forgetting to eat and that impairs our executive functioning or judgment. No one is immune to that, including David. Having a support system and friends around you is really important. We can keep fighting back, but David has burned enough villages in the past and if a friend says something that makes me turn off an entire line of criticism and judgment, he listens to it now. Going back to the last episode, David elaborates on the question: when is a self-soothing the task and when is it a distraction? For example, if being grounded and soothed and calm helps you perform on a task, then it’s helpful; but what if the task is cleaning your room, and can you go from self-soothing to self-soothing behavior without ever ending up cleaning your room? How do we make the distinction that a task is supposed to be uncomfortable and we have to do the uncomfortable thing? Isabelle wonders about the fact that to her, self-soothing behavior can be mindless or it can be something you’re aware of, and to engage in something soothing, you first need an awareness that you are soothing yourself, perhaps. Also what if you’re so focused on the results, like for example, a clean room, that you lost the part where you recognized what your needs were that day, what you were up to doing—an awareness of yourself. But what about when you’re people pleasing and you’re being vigilant about all the tasks and all the needs of those around you, how do you recognize if you need some soothing or grounding in general as you go about doing any tasks? And what about if you have this on mode where you are so productive and go go go but you don’t necessarily stop to be present or aware of what’s happening inside you. David sees self-soothing as something you do to attend to yourself to make your body feel better, to not just live neck-up. Self soothing IS the task. Sometimes David comes out too hot, he’s a little fast, so he’ll use self-soothing or grounding techniques, like jumping up and down or taking three deep breaths. When he was younger, he saw soothing as something different, like watching “one more show” or he saw it as listening to a song he liked, it was an action that would feel good or get his mind off of things. But calling a friend and doing work together is an accommodation, not self-soothing. Self-soothing is the entire task, so you do it fully when you’re doing it. That’s David slowing down so he can have a conversation with one level of intensity. So often, when we’re anxious about a task, we prioritize feeling better rather than the task. At some point in time, it’s just starting, doing the uncomfortable thing, getting whatever accommodation we need to start, like calling a friend, setting a clock, holding your breath, because real relief comes when you get DONE with the task. Isabelle has a moment where she names that self soothing is going to look differently, but she struggles with remembering what she was talking about—David prompts her by retracing different steps and she doesn’t remember…but then does the second she gives up, and why does it always happen that way? David imagines there’s a traffic jam of neurons that are all firing and when you return to normal traffic you are able to do more again. She is thinking about how dependency fosters aggression, and she was noticing that when David was naming different methods of self soothing she had this reaction like “but hey, don’t take away my self soothing methods!” Is it like dependency on those things? We are dependent on things that is more than other people. The more you are dependent on something to self soothe—whether it’s a person, or a stapler working, or pick a thing, you’re going to get angry. The more extended and far away it is from your agency, the more it can generate aggression when you don’t get it. So diversify—David likes to wear socks he loves, and maybe sweatpants, and maybe a weighted blanket, and taking a minute to just breathe, and also to talk to his partner—have a break glass in case of emergency self soothing strategy, but also think about the best time to self soothe—is it right before you do a big project? Or right after you finish? Or do you need a take a break while doing it? Or all three? And if we’re so focused on comfort, that in and of itself can become a distraction.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS

Black and White Thinking: Believing or act...

What about a task that doesn’t have a sense of doing it well? You do it or you don’t do it, like earning money, or getting that job, or buying a house? The only thing that’s reinforced are tasks toward goal completion. What could I do today that would move me toward that goal? The  only question: is it moving toward my goal? If so, it’s effective (or if not, not effective), rather than good or bad. For example, David venting about his paper to his friend helped him be on task, rather than not being on task and going out to eat at Burger King—it’s still about the paper (it’s still on task). How effective is it toward the task? More effective than going to Burger King and not talking or thinking about the paper at all. Long term goals are specifically hard for folx with ADHD because of the delay of gratification. The more you wait, the more you feel like you’re failing. Neurotypical folx will read that waiting as normal or to be expected. Bobby names things like saving for retirement, saving for a house, paying off debt—the progress is so slow it feels so boring. David relies on his awesome neurotypical partner to save for a house by taking what they would pay for a mortgage every month and saving whatever that was on top of their rent (so if their Lego House rent was $10, and they wanted a $30 mortgage, they saved the extra $20 every month). Isabelle wonders if neurotypical shame spirals go as deep as neurodivergent ones—for example, David’s goes to homelessness, and she notices that neurotypical folx notice how close they got the finish (like getting the brick at the bottom of the pool during swimming lessons), and factor that in, whereas for her it’s the outcome that matters and she goes straight to everyone she loves is going to abandon her and ditch her. David names that he has a few shame spirals—for work, it’s homelessness, for relationships—it’s abandonment. This leads to black and white thinking, which is more than just worth mentioning, it’s the difference between “not getting a snack” to “failure begets failure begets FAILURE…” And this extreme is dismissed so often, people don’t get it. As a therapist you’d never say “it’s not a big deal,” you’re invalidating those feelings. What we ADHD folx feel, our level of intensity, is REAL—instead of “it shouldn’t hurt that much,” it’s “that’s extremely frustrating.” Bobby is slurping all this data up, and taking the feels, and feeling them…and that’s what you do. You acknowledge how intensely you’re feeling them. Bobby sits in the role of “Novice EveryDay-er…Every Day Dude” (which is what it says on his nameplate). And not just acknowledging your feels, but acknowledging the intensity of how strongly you feel them. Feel the feeling, know it’s more intense, or it might not be felt by other people. And do what you need to do to regulate—-as opposed to let it go. It’s like telling someone with ADHD not to look at the ceiling (we all looked at the ceiling). Telling someone to fight something is not effective, it can go on forever in a power struggle. Isabelle describes that she prefers the phrase self-soothe to self-regulate, because it can be a pressure to return to masking and appearing as though you are neurotypical or ‘regular.’ David is wondering if self-soothing is the task, actually—you might not be able to soothe or make the injury out of the way, and instead get grounded again. It’s not about getting out of your ADHD mindstate, it’s about lowering your hyper focus and lowering the pressure to act. David does this intermittent fast now and just got distracted about the food he wants to eat (schwarma)—he’s not pretending he’s going back to the point and instead is focusing on food and saying “Schwarma.” The group decides they will say “Schwarma” any time this happens, if they can remember, which Bobby reassures them he will. Isabelle then describes that she thinks Bobby circumvents working memory problems by using some of the rules of comedy, like callbacks, and then…she also loses the plot and goes back to telling her story. Isabelle describes fixations on movies or things across many genres and seems to do with what the movie makes her feel. She is reminded of one of her roommates in college who was a lovely person, but would fixate on one or two somewhat depressing emo songs and for Isabelle, she didn’t like the emotional state it would generate. So she recognizes that she goes through fasts almost, of media that stirs up feelings because she gets so sucked in, so she avoids fiction and movies and music for a while. Then, it’s like a switch flips, and she gets sucked in and rewatches things over and over again. Like the Netflix film “Tall Girl.” Because she is tall. And it hooked her (despite not being the best movie maybe, but she liked it). And she found time, when she has no time, to watch it four times in the span of a week. What is this? David’s like: it’s the definition of hyperfocus. It’s that you fall into it intensely. It’s that you do the same thing over and over again, or a genre—like David only watched shows that only made it one season. Isabelle can daydream for five hours straight while driving, she can rewatch things in her head. David is naming that this is not the safest driving technique, but David is wondering if there were any changes in this span that changes your capacity to move around? Were there things that gave you more unstructured time? Were there things you were avoiding or wanting distraction from on an emotional level? When all of those things happen, hyperfocus can kick in for preservation, like you’re going to get sucked into the Full Metal Alchemist because you don’t want to think about life after graduation. And in another way, rumination can kick in when you don’t move around during the day, which turns into a type of thinking at the end of the day, those thoughts can be a way to get out that energy. Everyone is going to kick into hyperfocus for different reasons and it will vary based on types and on the environment that they’re in. Isabelle connects very much to preservation idea of hyperfocus, how survival-related it feels and  the times she was in a fandom over a particular show or movie that relate to major life transitions, like graduation, or career changes, or life changes. David names that it’s probably much easier to remember the relationship she had with those things than the transitions themselves. David names that this is a superpower. It usually happens when you’re sitting in helplessness. Are you sitting in your helplessness, or are you sitting in “these amazing actors and actresses are nailing it?” Isabelle insists Bobby will watch it and grow to love it. It can happen when you don’t have structure or your routine changes, and it provides structure—the reality is, for David, it’s important to go wild if you really are in a state of helplessness—then go to town watching all the shows. But if you’re using it to avoid a task, that’s a whole other story. 

Things Isabelle, David, and Bobby have hyper focused on (that are mentioned in the episode):

The Matrix

New Girl

Tall Girl

It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Full Metal Alchemist

Schwarma

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

Black and White Thinking: Believing or acting as if there are only two ways of thinking right or wrong. This includes feeling like you did the thing or failed completely, and can be felt very intensely. Black and white thinking also makes it harder to see middle paths during an argument and makes it harder to back down and be flexible at times.

Delaye...