Something Shiny: ADHD!

David and Isabelle are joined by David Flink and Marcus Soutra, co-founders of Eye to Eye, friends, and pioneers in education equity and empowering young neurodivergent folks to know and own their story and change the education system and world for the better. Go deep into how this youth-led movement started 25 years ago, the impacts Marcus and David have witnessed, and what it has always hinged upon: that our neurodivergent stories and culture matter and sharing them can change the lives of others for the better.  To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org.

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David wonders if, given that they have already attended the Organizing Institute of Eye to Eye—and should we talk about it as if it hasn’t already happened? Or as if they are about to go…? Marcus is up for whatever, David Flink points out that this is a really choose your own adventure intro. David Kessler has been involved with Eye to Eye for years and gives an introduction. David Flink and Marcus Soutra are very important people in Kessler’s (SSPOD co-host’s) story. Flink started Project Eye to Eye twenty years ago, he’s been nominated by CNN as person of the year, he’s created a network of community around neurodivergence spanning every state. Marcus is so much around the connections and relationships of this organization, being the boots on the ground, working with so many people in this industry, talking so much about neurodiversity and ADHD in general. What made you think about making the OI, what is it for? The event is the Young Leader’s Organizing Institute (OI), first one held in Jersey City in 2005, and held every year since, including virtually through the pandemic, and young people from around the country come together and build community through their learning difference, neurodivergence, learning how to be a leader and tell their story. It’s a youth-led movement, facilitates their work throughout the year. Some are already activists, and some are new to it. Isabelle names that this is incredible, people are coming and being real and vulnerable and its truly incredible. There are chapters from over 20 states, and two students from each chapter come together and learn real tangible skills to learn how to be leaders and lead a program. Every student coming represents another 10-20 students back home. This event has allowed us to give students the skills and puts their oxygen masks on first, rather than the masking of hiding who you are. How did Flink dream about making Eye to Eye in the first place? It was co-dreaming, it was celebrating 25 years since its inception, and he stepped on this campus 25 years ago. The original version was a pretty small dream. Nobody had told him with any authenticity that there was something about his learning experience was powerful and right. He hit the teacher and family lottery, he did have people cheering him on. He wanted kids to know they’re not alone. And it wasn’t until he met Marcus, they codreamed. They had different life experiences, what would it look like if we brought people from different backgrounds, different states. We need young people from all backgrounds finding their way to love each other through learning differently, and it’s helping educate educators so they can say yes to when young people say what they need. They are 1 in 5 of all students; we need to encourage cross communication between neurotypical and neurodivergent folks. Isabelle gives feedback on what the whole conference experience was like, where there were signs, and no fear sweat, chairs with wheels, fidgets everywhere, and then when someone talks, you actually want to listen. Flink names that there’s where they started, and it was all about people saying something we needed to hear. Flink gave Kessler (SSPOD co-host) a series of vague descriptions of people that were all wandering the airport, and he was going to find them all. David didn’t shame Flink, he was on it—tracking down the people, looking for people who looked lost or had Eye to Eye gear—it became this amazing quest. It was like a Collect ‘Em All Pokemon adventure, and it was screaming and excitement and it was so much fun. David names that for the next 25 years, our environment continues to be helpful, but we are an education equity organization, we are youth driven. We’re here to set up the next generation of young people to ask for what they need and change the school systems. There’s a need for them to say what they need to say. Kessler names that trauma bonding can happen in therapy, where people go into the gory details and it's not helpful. The idea of “sharing your story” can provoke eye rolls. One of the things you first need to know is your story—talk about your story, how you got there. David felt like a fraud, the last thing he wanted to do is to tell anyone how he got there, and then Marcus lead it off by sharing his story, and as he started hearing everyone’s stories, he realized how much he wasn’t alone, he was suddenly aware he was not deficient in this group, not different in this group. Was there a story in particular that spurred this on? The idea is to make this invisible visible, make the hidden culture visible, from how we experience the trauma of school (or home, or work, or family, etc.) Marcus can identify the dyslexic person who points to the menu instead of reading the menu at dinner, and he names it for them, there's a hidden aspect to this.  Marcus had never met with David, and they had never met, but 9/10 they connected on things. Marcus was running an Eye to Eye chapter after school, and working with mentors, and running the art room (where they build social/emotional skills) and the idea was the invention project. Einstein was dyslexic and he was an inventor, so think make an invention that addresses the biggest thing that trips you up. One kid said “I hate school because I get bullied for using extended time on tests,” and he created this invention called Bully Be Gone—he called them death stars—the way he was able to use art and have near peer role models help him navigate that problem. For a 19 year old, a 10 year old—it didn’t matter where we were from, the emotional experience and the ability to connect and communicate with each other. That was where it was. Isabelle wonders about David and Marcus’ meet cute—and she recognizes that bullying is a massive trauma, especially when it goes unrecognized and unacknowledged. It changes how you relate to others and yourself, and it’s this big deal thing, and you’re then able to put art, movement, expression to it because it goes beyond words, and what it means for the older kid/youth—what it means for them to do that. We all want to spare others the suffering others went through—you go into this work because you want the world to not have that, and she’s struck by the amount of healing—what happens when you change the outcome of another person’s story, and that you matter (and it’s also not your job or role to), but what it means to transmute that wound —aka trauma mastery.  Marcus names that he sees this with his mentors—the first thing he says is, your story matters and it can change the life of someone else.

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To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to: Marcus Soutra and David Flink, co-founders of Eye to Eye, for their honesty and heart, Sabrina Odigie for her logistical wizardry, and Philister Lukacevic, Eye to Eye Director of Marketing and Communications for his patience and help in getting these edits and materials out there!

Isabelle and David continue to reflect upon what it was like to experience the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute Conference—Isabelle describes how strange and surreal it felt to not be judged for things she’s used to having to manage and mask about; what it means to recognize that there is a part of you that goes unseen so much of the time and when you connect with it, the grief that comes. The power of recognizing you are among your particular tribe and the jarring feeling of realizing how rare it is. And also, ADHD podcaster dance offs.  

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Isabelle describes how, partly due to flight delay and the tail end of a cold and such, it was only a day and a half worth of conference experience, and yet it felt very surreal—she kept asking, is this real? And on the second day, was walking around feeling like she was shaming herself for her own behavior (because normally, she would’ve registered people’s looks or reactions to her interrupting them so much, for example). And she also noticed that while she would normally push herself to engage even if she wanted to really shut down, here she felt safe taking time for herself and not engaging, and didn’t even feel the need to try to endear herself or manage relationships excessively to prevent fallout or misunderstandings. She felt very seen and understood. David names that no one in the world is used to not being judged. She wonders if this is a common experience for attendees? David describes that he hasn’t been in this alumni role before; when he was a participant, people would be up all night in the common rooms where they would be staying, someone would be crying, someone would be forming a significant partnership or breaking up with someone, and they would go to bed at 3a and wake up at 7a to do the whole thing over again. It was like being whisked down a torrent of a river without hitting any rocks along the way. To feel so fully accepted, in all your parts, not just the parts that are shiny but all the parts—the closest word to what it feels like is maybe a collective grief, and regret, and then also release. David names that people don’t see all your parts, but they see the parts you spend most of your time hiding.  Having that part show up—it’s exhausting and refreshing and exhilarating to know how long that part has been hidden. As a therapist, when David diagnoses someone as neurodivergent later in life—there’s an initial, “oh my god, that makes so much sense!” And it’s followed by a “oh my god, if I had known earlier…?”  You cannot grab this information without grabbing some of the grief. But it’s also so strange when you’re sitting in a room where the task is to acknowledge it. Isabelle gives the example of, going to a comicon and finding your people v. Going and finding a room full of people who are celebrating a show that was cancelled early (Firefly) and cosplaying as one specific character (Jayne) and it’s that specific and for four days straight. Or it’s like someone is playing the sports ball team and they’re wearing the opposing team’s jersey on someone, it’s like you know you’re on the same side because you’re both wearing the other team’s color. It’s the difference between finding your people under duress or outnumbered. It’s like Isabelle finding a bunch of tall women at the Denver airport and feeling oddly among her people but it’s jarring and delightful too. Isabelle wonders what David’s realization was like—he mentioned all these aspects of grieving his brother’s loss and the loss of being a part of this community in the same way, and here he came back and experienced it again. He is doing great, and he has the feeling of “put me in, coach!” He watched amazing people (like Sawyer, Chloe, for example) and seeing parts of him 10 years ago, looking up to people he thought were really great. It was this moment of feeling like everything was coming full circle and David felt an immense amount of gratitude that he could reconnect with people who were really important to him, and his partner could see what he was doing. They were participating in the ally training group and as neurotypical person, it meant so much to David to see them getting along with everyone because it wasn’t a judgment-filled place. It reminds him how important a lack of judgment means to everyone not just neurodivergent folx. He came back with a renewed sense of worth, mission, and purpose. We are trying to do this with the podcast, we are trying to destroy a stigma. And we are far from the only ones doing it, but the best podcast out there—Isabelle imagines they just challenged all these other amazing podcasters to a dance off and David names they would argue about the song choice and just end up having an amazing hangout. 

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle and David reflect upon what it was like to experience the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute Conference--in a nutshell, for David, figuring out 20 some odd years ago that his learning style was valuable, and then reclaiming hope after great loss, and for Isabelle, just this past year, feeling like she discovered her home planet in a conference room in Denver. Covering bits about medications, creating neurodivergent-friendly spaces, and masking, David and Isabelle go deep, and also discuss how there should be a "leave no trace" pact between a chair's fabric and your leg.

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Isabelle updates David that she’s been on stimulant meds (in extended release form), but would crash at the end of the day, and so her prescriber gave her an immediate release form she could use to help the end of day transitions (bedtime). They are going through schedule puberty as they transition to the kids being in school again but also not being in school yet and she just wants the discomfort to be over. She forgot to take her booster dose today, and it is so obvious to her, she is noticing just how much textures and sensations get to her. David names that it’s almost as if she didn’t have an accommodation to avoid distraction and wasn’t aware how many physical distractions would push through. She is so itchy and uncomfortable and so distracted by physical distractions. This comes up with the right variables. Just a few weeks ago, it was really humid, and David was like “I’m not wearing a shirt or pants” and it was just too much and he didn’t want to sit on certain fabrics, doesn’t want to sit on something that peels off, why can’t we just hold each and just leave each other as we found each other. Then there are other chairs that leave a butt print and so he gets up and wipes the seat off as he gets up. David and Isabelle went to the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute, where train their mentors and gear them up for the coming school year. They attended the portion of the institute designed for allies and former mentors of the program. Isabelle noticed that she found her way to where she needed to go on her first try, which has never happened at a conference before. It felt like reconnected with friends-in-waiting or long lost cousins. There were ample snacks and beverages. It just felt delightful and moving. David describes how this place has a different feeling to it because our nervous system operates differently. We didn’t have to get anxious to get where they needed to go. It’s this place where we see accommodations everywhere. We get to see both of it. There is no shame in this group of people to spin a fidget spinner, draw, or doodle, and people didn’t have to sit in nothingness. And the reason is mattered is that there so many things you normally have to think about, the anxiety level is so high, and halfway through the lecture, all Isabelle wants is a snack, and all she thinks about is the bar that she can’t get out of her bag, and then she is opening the notebook, the whole thing is hyper vigilance around how she is presenting. This was like instant unmasking, she didn't have to anxiously ask someone where to go. It’s incredible when the task isn’t being quiet, but the task is participation. You can eat crinkly snacks! David thinks about culture that we really have, that is a part of being neurodivergent. Any person who has to excuse why they’re running late, having an accommodation in school, not wanting to play scrabble—this is a cultural piece, when we see these things as a part of our culture, not our difference, and have them attended to, we feel safer. Oh my goodness, not having to fight for every moment to pay attention, gives us a lot more energy in a lot of ways. Isabelle names that where she has previously felt it were in places or spaces she would co-create. She has felt this before when visiting Poland, where her parents and family are from, and she’d have this sense of home. But this was the first time she had the feeling in a room of other people having the feeling. It’s like finding her home planet. Where has this been? I’m so happy it’s here! What is this feeling? This is the part of knowing you’re all of a sudden part of a group, you’re part of a group this world wasn’t built for, and you have to do it our way. And when you see hundreds of people not asking permission and not getting in trouble. People were attending to the task with incredible precision, and it’s an honor to watch these young people making the world we’re going to live in. David went the first time 20 years ago, and it’s the first time in his life someone made his learning style feel valuable. In his grad school program, one of his classmates was like “hey, you’re talking about ADHD, any interest in starting a program where they take college students with LDs and match them up with middle school students and seeing what happens?” And he gets ready for an interview with David Flink. He was interested in hearing his story but not in an exploitive way. It felt really holding, we’d love to have you be a mentor, come out to Brown university, we’ll teach you how to be a mentor. He’s at the OI, and David Flink and Marcus Soutra (Eye to Eye co-founders) are standing at the easel with Marcus and dream boarding stuff. Grady (if you hear this, David misses you and you changed his life!) was bouncing a racketball, and David looked around, waiting for him to get in trouble, and he looked around and no one cared. And they’re playing catch with this racketball and bouncing it off and playing this elaborate game during this presentation. At the same time we’re playing with these racketballs, obviously distracted. Marcus - “does anyone know how to spell benign?” This question usually makes David go small, and the room goes quiet and goes crickets. “All right then” he writes “B” and the number “9.” David realizes: "It’s not that we’re not paying attention because we're bouncing a ball; we're answering all the questions."  He wasn’t trying to hide, and he didn't get 'caught' and noticed he started to shake off the 'just about to be caught doing the thing I’m not supposed to be doing' feeling. He does 20 years with this, traveling around. And then a short while ago, one of the people closest to David, died. The moment he found out his brother was dying, David was talking with Jennifer Kane, saying “I’m done.” He never thought he would see anyone again. This reminded him to have hope in people, and people will surprise you. It started with 27 people sitting around the table, and now there’s levels of things and sophistication with apps and fidgets. Coming back and being amazed about how incredible this is. It’s like coming face to face with a dragon, but finding out it’s friendly, and then having it shrink to a size of a pea and living in your heart. 

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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David and Isabelle navigated the treacherous landscape of surviving and being the lucky ones; are we trash? Are we seahorses? From defeating the enemy that is loose glitter, to brain regions resembling animals, to why it hurts when we beat up on ourselves, tackling the pain and looking at ourselves with intention.

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Isabelle was told she’s a talker, but she’s also a listener. There’s this thing Isabelle borrows from mindfulness practices and therapy ideas: what you resist persists, what you go with flows, go for the ride. She had this moment the other day, at what point is it going to be bore her? She is easily bored, she is initially excited about and then she loses interest in it, she can be hyper fixated on the thing and then it passes, and then why is it that she’s never been bored in a session—it’s never happened: when will it not be exciting or curious? It’s not the same thing as it being easy or effortless, challenge does not mean something isn’t fun, and maybe it’s one of her favorite things to do. David names: it’s amazing to be put into an environment where it’s dangerous if you don’t pay attention to listening, attending to the patterns and themes in the group—it’s almost what I’ve done in my entire life. Find ways to honor ourselves. I want someone to be able to look at me and respectfully out himself more often, and we don’t see the models are dysfunction. “This kid having ADHD and being in jail” is part of the story. Until everything is shiny! Glitter! Except loose glitter which is Isabelle’s worst nightmare. She learned, the hard way, that loose glitter found it’s way into her world, the moment you try to clean it up, it’s “this glitter will be here always.” The glitter’s arch nemesis is tape—you’re welcome everybody. You still have to sit there for hours, but it makes the cleanup satisfying. David has had the thought of rooms with too much glitter and thought: burn this room. Isabelle names that this is different when there is epoxy style glitter in a floor or a tile, or in a shoe—she loves how there’s a lot of glittery shoes, but the glitter is contained in a plastic shell. And there’s something amazing about the shiny but it needs to stay shiny and not be embedded in anyone’s skin. Isabelle's friend pointed this out: David has a pleasant voice, and Isabelle, back in high school, was on speech team, and she competed in radio speaking, where you essentially you get to be in a room separate from everybody and record into a microphone. That got her over her fear of public speaking, only they used tapes and tape recorders. Who knew? These little things, not exactly fate v. Free will—isn’t it interesting the things that had to come into play were miraculous or exponentially improbable. David thinks his survival in life is pretty lucky. Like LeDerick said, we’re statistically survivors, how did we get there? David is sometimes looking at a river and it’s all pristine and there’s this piece of trash attached to a log not getting sucked down the river, and that's him, he’s a piece of trash, and he got saved. He was powerless being swept by the current—a lot of us were—whether we found partners, or friends, or jobs or something. The odds of David getting an advanced degree, being in a counseling practice, and having the same diagnosis. There was a moment in their office, it was Isabelle’s first or second month, and we were talking about structure and stuff, and it went brain-seahorse. And David went “maybe…maybe…” and everyone else just saw, it’s going to go somewhere else. To finish the thought: once seahorses have partnered, upon the first rays of sunlight entering the ocean, they will do a synchronized dance to each other. Speaking of seahorses: the hippocampus is the part of the brain is responsible for episodic memory, ability to time stamp when something has happened in our life, seal it with a declarative context—and to connect it to David's trash metaphor, how a seahorse gets around: it attaches to kelp or seaweed and it floats on the currents, and it mates for life, and takes care of it’s babies, and it does not make sense, and it exists nonetheless. Isabelle doesn’t think we’re trash on a river, we’re the seahorses. David names that 50% of people with ADHD don’t graduate on time. Isabelle names: a lot seahorses don’t survive, statistically there’s so many don’t make it. David names there’s a lot of compassion and meaning to what we see—Isabelle is doing a lot of shaming to the trash. David is not trying to say we’re mistakes, but he doesn’t think the system sees value in us, but we have to see value in ourselves. You see me, I see you, grab my hand, we’ll do things together, we are trying to survive. David is never going to judge survival. Isabelle quotes Carl Rogers, when the potato sprouts, it’s doesn’t matter if it’s in the earth or in the root cellar, it will reach out toward the little shaft of light, and he talks about it as an actualizing tendency, we’re always going toward the sunlight, and everyone else is casting shame “silly potato” but it’s doing what it does. The labels that we put on things can be really distracting, and there’s a big debate about diagnosing, and David names that labels can be minimizing and restrictive, but with ADHD, there’s some power in that label, in knowing you’re not alone, that it’s really hard when you’re dealing with internal invisible motivational things, it's easy to think there’s something wrong with you, and you need to spend time with people that don’t make you feel like trash, and you spend time doing things, and you don’t trash yourself. But also, David identifies with the trash in the river. ANd things changed when he didn’t need the system to find value. How do you relate to yourself in seeing the value you hold and knowing that. It connects to internal family systems, there’s this interesting idea that the reason why when you’re beating yourself up, it causes actual pain—there’s another part, however small or exiled, there is another part that is taking that hit. When we’re beating ourselves up, a part of us is trying to convince the part that desperately doesn’t want it to be true. It’s like trying to beat down a part that inherently knows it has value. It’s not just practicing and noticing the strengths and the peaks, but also having the space and safety to grieve, that you had a lot more peaks, and lot of people missed it, and you were wrong about you, too—there's a whole reckoning. David would use this question to ground himself: “when did that not happen?” Oh, with these people, in that place, when I’m doing x—“where does it not happen?” Even looking at childhood, “my parents were always angry”—when were they not? This makes Isabelle think of your default neural network—you’re brain is going to always do the thing that it's most used to, because it’s more efficient to do the thing you do every day—if you’re not actively or intentionally trying to counter that, you’re going to coast—and if you’ve been knocked down, and you've been hit harder and felt it more acutely than most, and you’re default mode is going to be rough, and it does take concentrated effort to work with this, and that's where environments and community comes in.

 Dr. Daniel Siegel - the neurons that fire together, wire together

Coolest books about seahorses - Poseidon's Steed: The Story of Seahorses, from Myth to Reality by Dr. Helen Scales, Ph.D.

Carl Rogers quote “potato sprout”

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David and Isabelle grapple with flipping the focus from ADHD symptoms into strengths, as survivors in a neurotypically-geared world. From questioning why we don’t use our toes more often, to the Boxcar Children, to maybe "outgrowing ADHD" is more connected to growing up, having more power, and choosing your own adventure. 

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Isabelle struggles with going in and out doors, getting on/off escalators, and also not injuring herself or others in revolving doors—it’s like the old Far Side comic, “Midvale School for the Gifted” where the kid is pushing on the pull door. David names that it’s an engineering flaw, you’re supposed to intuitively know which way to open a door, there should be no handle on a push door, for example, it’s not all our fault. Most of Isabelle’s family does not live in this country, and she has memories of different light switches, or doors, or the placement of things in bathrooms, or where the handles are on shower heads—the way you habituate yourself in your space is so engrained. Every time they clean the little island on casters in the kitchen is moved, and the next day is a series of humans hitting things a lot and going “what?!” Isabelle would walk while reading a lot, she couldn’t handle transitions and she needed something in her hand to do, and as David points out it increases the degree of difficulty. She was reading Boxcar children, and also—what were we reading? It was going to be the best to live in a boxcar? And half the book was “and then Violet made curtains" and she oddly wanted to make curtains. And because she was walking and reading and she learned to pick up things with their toes. She can hold a pen with her toes, and she can probably write something with toes—why do we forget our toes are just foot fingers? If anything looks like it wants to be helpful, it's a toe. It wants to do more than just stabilize you while moving. Isabelle remembers flying across the Atlantic and is by herself (as a kid, maybe 10 years old) and she was sitting next to an older teen, backpacking, he was really nice. They were talking, and she never forgot this and she was a very nervous flyer and it meant a lot to be distracted by this, and had a regular size middle finger, and his middle toe was the exact same length as his middle finger. The middle toe was proportionate to the other toes, the foot looked normal, and it was a large, basketball player sized foot, he must’ve been tall? He had regular sized fingers, but his toe was the same size. David doesn’t know where to put this in his brain: in the black box never to be revisited. I mean, literally there’s a foot out there that can drive a car if needed, and also what is this happening to a 10 year old (he felt like a chill camp counselor, not creepy at all), and then you think: could you cook with it? Could you be flipping eggs on the pan? You learn how to do things with your feet—is it just a social norm that we don’t do things with our toes? Did you know that when you’re born blind you can’t have hallucinations—you have zero chance of having schizophrenia, because hallucinations can be smells, feelings, lots of things. When you don’t have eyes, the whole part of your brain gets usurped, their senses are so much more sophisticated, they can’t have random errors. What about ADHD brains: we are so used to having lots of thoughts in our brain, and it lends us to be in situations where we cannot have dysfunction where other people do. How a blind person doesn’t have any form of hallucination. There are a lot of environments built for us that make our differences disappear. This is not a one-size fits all for everyone: when people get their environmental needs met with ADHD, there are not problems. To someone having auditory hallucinations, that part of the brain that is activated when they hear someone talking, it’s actually happening (same part of the brain is happening)—to that person it’s indistinguishable. The other parts of the brain grow into that region that’s missed—more parts of the brain deal with other senses, and your brain is use-dependent, and it just fills it in and becomes more sophisticated, and it's very easy finding the ghosts in the machine. It’s better at picking up “this is not matching the pattern of reality” and because they’re using all their senses. Isabelle references a radiolab episode where a man uses echolocation, and using clicks, and can ride bicycles and stuff, and they’re picking up on the space and materials and everything just from the sound. Whatever the brain does it gets better at. As someone with ADHD, we’re superpowered? David is saying we are, and referencing D&D. Make some stat categories super low and others super high —I don’t care about wisdom and coordination, but my reflexes are really high. David, for example, looking at what teachers references: also likes to talk, really distracted by helping people, wants people to feel better, also highly distracted, food motivated. We get caught up on getting little David to do homework. We don’t get caught up on “that little David is so good at building social emotional connections to people.” How do we get that better? Little Susan is insanely good at video game play and programming—how do we get them MORE of that instead of “get them off the screens.” Is your strength just sitting in the car driving fast? That’s a strength. We (ADHD folx and people in the world) have to be careful to not see the negative first, we have to see the strength first. David can clearly see, take a minute listener and think of the people you knew were really good at, what did you want to do when you were left alone. How do those things line up with yourself now? “I used to have ADHD and then I grew out of it!” NO, you grew up and got old enough to choose your own adventures and now you’re fine! We have peaks and valleys and we have to think about the peaks more. 

Midvale School for the Gifted Far Side comic by Gary Larson

What were we reading? The Boxcar Children

A Beautiful Mind

Radiolab with echolocating man is actually an Invisibilia episode about Daniel Kish

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle and David reflect on going on 3 years of working on this podcast (note: this is now are 4th year working on it! WHAT?! WE LOVE YOU!) and how much the common way of interacting with inanimate objects is “did I break it?” And when we don’t, the realization of: “it’s more better!” Thinking about all the shiny neurodivergent folks gleaming around the planet, the power of your suggestions and ideas for shaping this podcast, and things we’ve learned as adults that changed the game (see: logos, gas station hacks, successfully getting everything for a recipe at the grocery store).

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David and Isabelle reflect on this being their 3rd anniversary of recording the podcast. David describes how he used to walk to Isabelle and Bobby’s place past a McDonald’s every time to record, mulling over what they would talk about or what they could do. But this McDonald’s had a lit awning but was also closed a bunch of the time, and was filled with the most awkward sidewalk and road configuration so you need to do a lot of things to find out they are closed. David would like to barter, somehow.  On Isabelle’s end she remembers getting the table ready after putting their kid down for bed, and getting excited to have a guest over. Almost everything is improved by snacking, but also less ice, is better. The two ponder about what to talk about, or going meta with the podcast. David wants to go there because it has been so cool to see what happened since we started this. We started wanting to remove the paywall from good information about ADHD, reduce suffering. The letters and emails we’ve gotten, the reviews we’ve seen posted, David is constantly in awe and reminded that sometimes people hear something we’ve talked about and it makes them feel less alone or more seen. It’s so cool that it’s happening so much. And he’s sitting with ADHD in that he doesn’t respond. “This person is amazing, their heart is true, and man, I need to sit down and write an honest letter that matches the energy.” Isabelle is trying so hard to respond. David cries and wants to respond, and here is his verbal accommodation to responding. It’s really incredible and rewarding in ways he wouldn’t have thought. For Isabelle, it relates a delayed gratification time, having a roughly regular way of interacting with David is so rewarding.  For a long time in person, this was the lifeline to getting to see each other and it is delightful and brought me so much, and then she turns to Bobby and goes “have you listened to the podcast?” Because they actually use this in their every day life. Let’s figure that out. In terms of the immediacy of what this means, every time she goes to listen and edits old episodes, it’s delightful, and then she gets something from it. And then she sits and edits and gets better and faster and it’s not her chosen profession, so she’s picked up a lot as she’s gone. And then she feels the growing load of never putting this out and it’s fine as long as there’s an episode up. And then we get a review, or a letter, or an email, and it’s like holy flying pieces of flaming something. And then it's a conversation. You’re listening on the other end of this. And she listens to the other end of this, she’s just listener, too. It makes her think of the first “X-Men” movie and Professor X in his machine, Cerebro, and seeing all of the shiny people all around the world. And David names, we can struggle with premeditation, and not rehearsing, or scripting anything, but these are very real conversations that can feel scary and vulnerable because they’re not here. There are certain topics and suggestions that lots of people have written in and we’ve been so excited to cover them and maybe do it. It’s really helpful if people tell us “give us more information on x” and that gives us structure, or like help me with littles, and how do we sit here and deal with partners, how do you reclaim a life when you learn you’re neurodivergent into your later adulthood?  What might be really great, and maybe do a conversation around them, there are no capital A answers, but there are lots of answers to these things. We should rope in more people so we have more ways of talking about it, both from parents and non-parents, and more of a Q&A roundtable - and maybe we make it an event, a virtual, zoom type things. David gets balloons no matter what. On Isabelle’s scale of decorations, the top one is little paper accordions made of tissue paper, loves the opening of party decorations and then she closes them and they are flat. David has kept some of those up because why would you take them down. It’s like a 3D animation, now it’s flat and now it’s slowly getting not flat. Am I going to break it? It’s more better!  This sums up half of Isabelle’s interactions with inanimate objects. Giant learning moments of things you didn’t know until way late and it changed the game: David was in his late 20s when he learned how to spell kitchen, and he got it and it was funny, but he did learn how to spell that word. That’s a hard word! Isabelle’s kid is in that ‘teaching himself to read’ kind of state, and describing the difference between “to,” “too,” and “two” —try explaining that to a kid. And David thinks the English language is needlessly insane and he hates it. And in case anyone doesn’t know, Isabelle sits there and types out the show notes. The word she has never once spelled accurately—not to brag, but she was the 3rd place winner of the Polish National Alliance spelling bee (which is in English)—she never spells accommodate. There are too many consonants in “kitchen.” And there’s so many words David can’t spell that don’t matter, but if you have to do it every day. Neurochemistry makes sense—he can spell amygdala - “Amy G Dala.” He realized excitement and enthusiasm is an accommodation for anxiety. You can choose to label the experience differently. David was prepping for an event and he was chomping at the bit to go on and then he started jumping up and down and shadowboxing and he's doing these moves and all of a sudden, all of that pent up anxiety was embodied into excitement in his body. That’s something he's done again and again in life. Every once in a while, he will think of something he wants to cook, goes to the store, gets all that he needs, and then prepping things-and that’s some sexiness right there. He feels so good when he does that. This makes Isabelle think of porn for housewives (so sexist)-novelty books—and you open this up and it is pictures of very generically handsome men and women of all stripes just doing various household tasks, the word bubbles are saying things like “I scheduled all the kids’ doctor’s appointments and picked up dinner” and it's just a task, and what David just described all those sequences, preparation, initiating and follow through — very sexy for an ADHD brain. And David has learned he has to have to have all the ingredients have to fit on the post it note and he can’t do any other shopping and it can only be to get ingredients for that meal. And if he adds more, he'll get 35%-95% of it—has to be a targeted mission. That makes Isabelle think of how to try to make gf baking ten years before there were mixes, and the kinds of things she forced herself to eat, because she worked so hard on them. It totally blew Isabelle’s mind that logos had more to them than just letters—she didn’t learn this until this last year. And it makes fun to look at, and you realize how much work put people into it and you have to be very talented. Two things she learned within the last five years: how to remember which side of the car the gas tank is on? You can look at the little gas tank icon on your dash and there’s an arrow next to it, and...

While we reunite (in person!) and prep some amazing new episodes, here's one of our top ever: ever wonder if it’d be easier to be partnered with someone who also has ADHD (or, someone who is neurotypical)? How can you coexist no matter what the combo platter of neurodivergence? Robin, David’s neurotypical partner, and Bobby, Isabelle’s neurodivergent partner, join a relationship round table filled with practical tips on how neurotypical and neurodivergent partners can better support, communicate, and respond in key moments with one another.

For our younger ears: there is a swear in the last minute of the episode. Be warned.
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ADHD is often scapegoated within relationships. David & Isabelle are joined by David’s partner, Robin, who is neurotypical, and Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, who also has ADHD. David describes his friendship with Noah, who also has ADHD, and how the two of them have different and complementary needs and accommodation styles (for example, Noah likes structure and being on time, David is more accommodated by not wanting to let Noah down). How relationships could look when people are aware of what they are good at, not so good at, and that they need to work differently. This is similar to how when Bobby and Isabelle were first diagnosed, they had very different ways of experiencing ADHD and their sample size (“but wait, Isabelle’s more organized, she can’t have ADHD!”) impacted their understanding of it. David and Robin describe how Robin gives David a part of a shelf—a place where he could freely be messy and do his thing. Like spots that she, as his neurotypical partner, does not try to manage. The group goes on a tangent about cockroaches running up legs and spiders in your mouth while you sleep (see below). David also observes that Robin does not ask him to do a lot of things so when she does ask him, it feels novel and he received instant gratification for doing the task, so he’s more likely to do it (and eager to please the person he loves). This also connects to how Robin asks him to sweep or clean up crumbs (more thoroughly). Isabelle notes Robin’s warmth—and recognizes that Isabelle and Bobby both aren’t as warm to each other around this feedback. Robin points out that Isabelle (having ADHD) may not see the feedback as it goes, and instead notices the feedback when she’s already overwhelmed. Isabelle and Bobby note what they call a Great America moment (see below) and notes how she was able to observe Bobby circling around distracted, like a shark, and that she was able to see he needed a different environment to complete his tasks and was able to choose to go to Great America anyway (for herself): in short, she didn’t have to jump into the shark circling herself. David points out that children (which he does not have) are like the loveliest hedonist parrots (which Isabelle and Bobby add: are also the best thing ever). David also talks about mirror neurons and how people with ADHD can have much more active empathic responses, where they can really sync up to the moods/emotions of the people around them. As Bobby is circling like a shark, Isabelle’s mirror neurons are activated and she is syncing up, but Isabelle does not need the same level of intensity. How to know when you don’t need that level of intensity, knowing when you can’t think your way out of that circle (AKA Great American moment). Also important and hard to notice when you’ve self-stimulated yourself into some intense emotion but then your next task doesn’t need it. Hard to see yourself clearly in these escalated moments and how a partner can see you more clearly sometimes and help reflect back boundaries or what you need. And so when Isabelle syncs up to Bobby, she’s trying to soothe them both, instead of paying attention to taking a break and NOT syncing up, which will help them both. Bobby notes that podcast recording sessions helps everyone. Robin also names times when she and David need to ask for what they need to sync up (or not sync up). David will call and give her a heads up telling her he’s ‘coming in hot’ from his commute/work time, when she’s on the couch horizontal watching the Office or Park and Rec—how they try to meet them halfway. How both David and Isabelle forget their age all the time. 

For more show notes, go to somethingshinypodcast.com

Why is the cockroach named Rick? For no reason, except David and Robin like alliteration. 

Isabelle mentions a sacred pact between humans and bugs? Well, it’s an ancient truce predicated on the idea that if a bug is around, that’s fine, we’re on their turf, really, but if a bug is on your body without you electing to have said bug on your body, or the bug is on your bed or perhaps in the bath/shower with you, you will use whatever means necessary to remove said bug from said body/bath/shower/bed. 

What is the Great America moment? Let’s say a group of people all want to go to an amazing thrill-ride packed amusement park (like Great America, a Six Flags park in scenic Gurnee, IL), but they’re waiting on one person to finish their work before they go. Instead of making the whole group miss out if that person doesn’t get their work done, you can honor both sets of needs: let the person finish their work and then also let the rest of the group go to Great America. Then circle back and plan another time to go together. The idea is that the person struggling shouldn’t feel the pressure/responsibility of everyone else’s ‘good time’ and that everyone can hold boundaries make autonomous choices that are also understanding and inclusive. 

DEFINITIONS

Self esteem:  is a global term that has to do with how you feel about yourself, your own sense of self-worth. One thing to consider is that with ADHD, self-esteem can be believing you're going to survive an experience: that the moment of discomfort you're experiencing will be worth it it in the future. This is hard to do when your sense of time can be two modes (now or not now). When everything feels like NOW, it's hard to believe in a later or a change or in growth. And when you believe you can do something, it dramatically increases the odds that you will actually do that thing. Self-esteem is believing that you can survive, you can do the thing, and you don't have to convince yourself of that all over again every time.

Mirror neurons: this is a very complex neurological phenomenon, that is a particular favorite of ours. When you are doing a thing, your brain fires motor neurons (eg. if you know how to ski, your brain will fire the motor fires that help you move on your skis). Mirror neurons fire when you are witnessing (or anticipating) someone else do a thing that your motor neurons do (eg. your mirror neurons fire AS IF YOU ARE SKIING, when you are watching skiing on tv). Put another way, your brain is inhibiting you from acting out what you're witnessing/anticipating, but other than that, you're copying the things you see/anticipate seeing. Think about how much we learn vicariously, through observation and then trying something you've only seen before (like a baby learning how to walk! or draw! or pretty much anything!) The more they're understood, the more we recognize that mirror neurons are also involved in recognizing emotional states and sharing your emotions with others (firing the pathways of movements we do when sad/happy/angry, e...

Isabelle and David explore more strengths of neurodivergence, such as adaptability and responding in crisis/pressure situations (like a Ferrari on a racetrack, versus the parking lot of practice), and explore the question: why do we use so many qualifiers? Saying things like “I know I’m talking too fast,” to “nerd alert!” to “I know you hate me and want to kill me, but…” thinking about how we try to make ourselves appear aware, or harmless, or signal our vulnerability or fear of being put into a box, and how curiosity can work in our favor to make this a conscious choice rather than an automatic habit. 

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David shares the stat that is most closely tied to income (not your test scores or math scores or writing ability)…but your vocabulary, the words you understand. It’s connected to travel, how well you can shift between different environments and understand things. We’re so used to thinking about things in different ways we may not even realize how adept we are at traveling between worlds. Isabelle recognizes how the oral tradition, storytelling, there’s some things she doesn’t take away from the written word that she takes away from hearing about it. How wonderful is it that she found her way into a profession where her role is a listener. She may not regurgitate all the info or nail that standardized test but If you look at her facility to adapt to novel or unusual or crisis circumstances, she wouldn’t trade all her masking for that ability, because she can chameleon her way through a lot of situations. She was recently on a panel and hadn’t been in front of so many humans in a long time. And she noticed that she doesn’t necessarily have the same stress response others have. When they were practicing for the panel, she didn’t do as well and the other amazing panelists seemed at home. When it came time to do it, she got in the zone, and their nerves were visible and it changed their performance. They went from being so organized and put together and getting nervous, whereas she noticed she was more at home and at ease under pressure. All these intangible but real things that we don’t give ourselves credit for. David names that her brain has always been a Ferrari, and when they’re doing the pre-planning, that’s like driving around a parking lot. It would be clunky. The panel itself was the racetrack and she could let herself go. This brings David to something he noticed lately when talking with his lovely colleague; he said “I know you’re going to kill me and hate me, but…I like football.” And his colleague pointed out that he says that sometimes. And his brain opened up the neurodivergent qualifier canyon—“but, I dunno, is it? I do” All the “am I taking up too much space? Talking too fast? Moving too much?” It’s something David has worked on so much. When we’re qualifying, we’re taking ammo out of someone else’s arsenal. We say the thing we’re scared someone is going to say to us, then when someone says something terrible to us, we’re not upset. David notices he does this with things he really, really likes but that he has a conflict around.  He’s owning that he’s a really, really big football fan. And he’s the only football fan in his family, this wasn’t handed down, this was something he stumbled on that he loves. He’s also spent the last 30 years studying brains, trauma, and behavior, so it’s complicated, but he still loves football. He says “don’t kill me, I love football” as a way of saying “don’t worry, I know football is bad, it’s a guilty pleasure.” But in all moments when qualifiers come out, we disrupt other people’s agency. The questions need to be okay. The conflicts need to be okay. We’re allowed to be guarded, we’re allowed to be vulnerable, but it’s not always easy liking little shiny things, because you might like a shiny thing that someone else doesn’t like. The qualifiers are the ways we use language to soften blows for ourselves, to stop our rocket from fully going wild across the field, they’re like really sophisticated bumper guards. It’s a part of having self esteem hits from ADHD, but it’s not all bad. This makes Isabelle think of how many qualifiers she uses in a moment let alone a day. It also makes her think of how she first came across qualifiers in a book on negotiation that calls them accusational audits, where you disarm someone’s argument by naming the thing you think they’ll use against you (e.g. ‘I know I’m young and experienced, but…”) She also thinks she uses phrases like “nerd alert” and “get ready, I’m about to geek out on you…” because there’s a lot about herself she was the last to find out about. She feels like she’s the last to know and she misses a lot. That’s also a strength/vulnerability of neurodivergence, the sense of our own self-appraisal being off, and/or really knowing our own limits. It’s like a way to broadcast to the world, “hey, don’t worry, I may be ten steps behind, but there’s a thin line of awareness here, there is a fin on this rocket, it’s way back here, but don’t worry!” Like a little person holding a kite string to the rocket. David is also joining this, qualifiers aren’t good or bad, “how come I didn’t know that?” But noticing where it shows up in safe and secure relationships. Qualifiers around “did that make sense?” And “I’m going to sum it up here” all make sense as cues to the listener, but where are we most vulnerable and what things make us create qualifiers. It’s interesting to David that it comes up at work, where he doesn’t feel very guarded—it doesn’t strike him as a choice, it’s part of the ADHD repetoire. If he thinks about it as a symptom, it feels gross. If he thinks about it as a behavior, he feels better.  A behavior is just a thing, it’s neutral on it’s own: this is my dunking the basketball behavior, this is my crying the corner behavior, it’s just a thing. So, to make sure she understands, Isabelle checks that qualifiers are indeed the judgments you say about the thing that you fear someone will say about the thing that you put out there ahead of time. Maybe another way of saying “vulnerability alert, vulnerability alert” or “no harm meant!” Showing your soft underbelly. But yet, we’re often saying qualifiers about the behaviors we’re doing that are automatic (like talking quickly, changing topics, going on tangents, talking a lot, etc.) and also the qualifying itself is a behavior that is connected to ADHD. David explains that you know it’s automatic when you don’t choose to do it (or not do it). The first thing we do to change a behavior is to observe it, just observing it changes it. He doesn’t need people to hold him accountable or say it to him while he’s talking, but he wants to notice it so he can choose where it happens so that the qualifiers don’t get in the way of building intimacy. It’s like the idea of toastmasters, if you’re trying to practice doing something like speaking, you gotta take away the qualifiers. It makes Isabelle think of pickle ball and how she was clunky and loving it but found herself qualifying and apologizing a lot, and her friend/coach told her “when you do that a lot, you take the fun out of it.” It sets you up to accept yourself differently, she just accepted she’s a poor pickle ball player and it was more fun. And it also means you get to play more because you need safety and trust to start to play. It’s so hard to play when you’re busy going “don’t hurt me, don’t kill me.” It’s like farting in the waiting room. No one wants that. It’s like two dogs doing cute little play bow, and one dog starts going “i’m sorry, I’m sorry,” the other dog stops going play...

Isabelle and David explore a bit about dyslexia, dyscalculia, and all the ways we walk around accommodating ourselves without knowing it. From making ADHD pasta, to thinking about ourselves in behavioral terms and moving from being driven by feelings to being able to make choices, the question really is, when do you want to learn how to swim? When you're in a pool, or when you're thrown into the ocean? 

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Isabelle describes hanging out with a dear friend (who she hopes will be a guest on the podcast soon) who late in life was diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum and also with a mild form of dyscalculia and dyslexia; her handwriting is all over the place, and she may have a mild form (not officially diagnosed), but realizing that she may be accommodating a lot more than she realized, and now she thinks that she may have a moderate form of dyscalculia, and her numbers and analog time switch on her. David wants to give her a hug; neurodiversity is our brains working differently, and we can get hung up on the pathology of it, but all things like slow processing, dyslexia, dyscalculia, and all of it—it changes how we think about attention cycles and how to attend and how to use accommodations. Some kids have ADHD symptoms, then they get glasses and suddenly they lose the ADHD symptoms. But they were blurting things out because they weren’t seeing prompts and once they could see them, they could move through it better. So many of us just move forward going “it’s just me” because we don’t want to talk about the broken or damaged parts of us and we think it’s just going to be hard. This is where it gets complicated, the part of this that David gets stuck with—neurodivergence, dyslexia, dyscalculia, ADHD, autism—that’s your brain all the time. That’s not your brain breaking. For David, ADHD is part of his brain all the time, but it makes things awesome. We don’t say “that’s ADHD pasta, you like that pasta, huh?” Because he’s experimenting with cooking. We could say, that’s creative, or we could say that’s impulsive. For people who have to learn differently, we’re creative, out of the box thinking, problem solving is through the roof. They’re not symptoms, they’re behaviors. We gotta normalize people and experiences, often times it’s used as an excuse. “I can’t, because my ADHD, or it’s out of control all the time.” Isabelle also has ADHD pasta, which is the spices she gathers that’s different every week and it’s so interesting, even the way she frames it. Friend was telling her about how to take the reading comprehension test; she would read the passage, then read the question, then re-read the passage to answer every question. And friend pointed out that some people are able to read the passage and keep that in their working memory as they then answer the questions. It’s a fleeting moment of talking with her, that makes it feel like someone gets what it’s like to do it the way you do it, and what it might be like to be neurotypical. A near peer mentor, especially someone who is doing well. We’re caught in that damaged place where we think it’s just our fault and we’re bad at the thing everyone else can do. The way that David has always thought about it, is that it could be working memory, or it could be that when you read the questions, you get structure about where to put everything else. We have incredible visual and spatial memory, David gets caught in how we organize stuff, and there’s this incredible guy Barkeley, who does a lot of great work, and he talks about it in a medical model where he talks about it with a symptoms and problems. David talks really fast—it’s either a symptom of ADHD or a behavior with ADHD. One is about sickness and one is just a thing. Isabelle is reminded of Sam Kean’s “Tale of the Dueling Neurosurgeons” and his glorious tangents and neurodivergent-friendly, fact-filled writing style, and she takes away that we commonly think our prefrontal cortex makes a decision and then our motor neurons follow it. Like if she wants to reach for the coffee cup, she decides to reach for the coffee cup, and then does the movement to reach for it. But your body actually reaches for the coffee cup before you consciously decide you are reaching for the coffee cup. Our brain and explanation for what we do is always lagging to the motions and things we’re doing. David’s turn to the do the Isabelle moment: whoa. The behavior comes first, our thoughts about it come second. Same with emotions, they come first, the thoughts come second. David’s first training was behavioral psychology, he thinks we’re stimulus and response creatures, but we really like to imagine we make a lot of conscious choices, when we don't. Nine times out of ten we think we make decisions, but we are on autopilot and don’t look at the menu at the fast food restaurant, we know what we’re getting already. We have to practice the habits we want to institute in our lives when it doesn’t matter. We need to initiate the routines, habits, and rituals when there’s low stakes, no time pressure, and nobody holding me accountable? WHAT?!  Thinking about accommodations: when do you want to learn how to swim? Do you want to learn how to swim in a swimming pool, or jumping off a ship? That’s what military training is in a way, you make it automatic so that the behavior is going to happen when you’re in that zone. As David points out, they also intentionally desentisize people to threats and vulnerabilities so they don’t get derailed when practicing the automated parts. So getting rid of threats is negatively reinforcing, which is removing the thing that’s painful as you go so you get relief. Other forms of negative reinforcement are the beeping going away when you buckle your seatbelt, or the sweet silence when the annoying alarm clock sound goes away when you hit the snooze button. Isabelle wonders if that connects to medication or caffeine, is it habit building because it gives a sense of calm? David counters: medication or not, any successful intervention dramatically increases self-esteem, dramatically makes the person feel better; it is naturally reinforcing because you’re able to feel the difference in your pain points. Reinforcement is just increasing the frequency of the thing that came before it. When we’re taking medications or doing any accommodations that work, we are more accurately appraising our performance, we are not motivated by feelings, we are motivated by behaviors, which is very different, and it creates a more tangible grasp on time. If you’re going to be motivated by behavior v. emotion, it’s reintroducing choice—what if folx who are neurodivergent, what if it’s just there less of a hold, ‘no no no, explain it all, make it all make sense’ that lives in us. More neurodivergent ways of thinking, like a horse with no reins—don’t get why anyone would need them? Imagine half the world is rockets with tail fins and they shoot off and people come down with parachute. And every once in a while, there is a rocket with no fins on it, and that’s David. It’s terrifying, but also goes everywhere, and you may be dodging it, the point is that accommodations, the medications, are fins for the rockets. We’re going to self-medicate with emotions, with anxiety, anger, excitement, shame, OR you can have that medication, you can take that coffee, you can go for that run, and then you increase that stimulation but you get to pick the feeling it’s attached to. Without accommodations, we’re just going to move from one threat to the next. With accommodations, we’ll face a threat and then have 30 minutes to pass before the next threat arises. And in terms ...

David and Isabelle name that a big part of any behavior change is a change in how you identify; to go from “I’m a damaged person full of failure” to “I’m a person who’s needs have not been met by the world and I’m doing my best and what can I do?” Furthermore, it is vulnerable and anxiety-producing to be neurodivergent and to live with failure on the regular. How to take the wins while honoring the hurt and healing the hits to our sense of self.

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We don’t exactly always know when to ask for help; Isabelle asked for help and asked for an icepack after injuring herself, which was a big deal. Isabelle names that some people are lone wolves when sick (arr! Stay away) whereas some people are teddy bears that want cuddles and care. Isabelle is more of a lone wolf. One of the last parts of habit formation is changing how you identify. Like quitting smoking: if you live thinking you're a smoker, then every time you don’t smoke, you’re constantly denying yourself, rather than thinking of yourself as a former smoker (and look at me go!)—enforcing a positive thing about yourself rather than resisting a temptation over and over again. With ADHD, thinking about how she is hacking her brain and doing is easier than taking. David is taking it in like a raccoon on light speed, “big eyes, lotsa lights!” This piece around identity is big. This is around self-esteem—“I’m a damaged person full of failure” v. “I’m a person who has never been seen correctly, and my needs have not been met by the world and what can I do?”—instead of trying to fix what’s broken, trying to get curious. Everyone of us is in this battle, too: changing your perception of what it’s like to be neurodivergent in this world. We have to shift our identity—for example, I’m not ever going to pair another sock in my life, or I’m going to make a game of pairing socks. Either way you go, you can be that person. No one has time for laces, or multiple trips for groceries. Now for a tangent, going back to the raccoon traveling light speed But what about if you’re going light speed, do you not hear the screaming and the farting until you stop? And the sonic boom is the displaced air from moving so fast? If you’re in space, does sound move the same way? Big questions. Isabelle describes Brian Cox and how her and Bobby went to go see a lecture by him for their anniversary, it’s a moment where they understand it, and then you see him drawing multiverses and you sorta get it and then you totally don’t. We were talking about awesome people, and podcasts, and one of the things David is thinking about lately is anxiety. We’re supposed to feel it, it’s a part of life. But anxiety stops us from getting answers. Fear is what happens once we see the answer and face it. Resiliency is what happens when you face your fears. These things are all difficult things: changing your identity is hard. It’s not about running from your anxiety, it’s about finding a safe group of people to experience it with. You don’t have to do it alone. It’s doing things together that makes doing the podcast really special. This is scary stuff that we’re doing on the podcast. At any point in time, we can make mistakes and make them last forever, there’s anxiety in that, but David doesn’t feel it with Isabelle—they are accommodations for that with each other. It’s not that we don’t do it alone, we do it together. And Isabelle names this recurring joke about “why are there no Bigfoot bones, because other Bigfoot eat them!”  Fear is intended to mobilize, it’s intended to help you focus and do the thing. Isabelle thinks of anxiety, related to trauma, survival and conditioned experiences around things she learned are not safe, but may be safe (but may perceive as unsafe). It’s impossible to feel fear if you’re also curious, like even if in the midst of fear or anxiety, you can cultivate a little curiosity, it gives you a little room to work with. When someone is with you, it’s that you co-regulate with someone, they validate and affirm that you’re safe and okay, and are able to say, you’re getting these little blips that can burst through that conditioning that can signal to you “you’re safe enough” someone is here to tell you “you got this, you’re good!” But it’s not just about taking what you perceive v. What is real—it’s not just that it’s real that the world is neurodivergent friendly, but it’s also true that when you don’t have people you can connect with and get that reinforcement from (those near peer mentors!) You are accurately actually vulnerable (like Isabelle feels vulnerable when she interrupts people or tangents), she spends so much energy masking. It takes a lot of courage to own you’re anxiety or fear or your resiliency, or to have a concept of “that’s what’s happening to me.” Don’t know if we give ourselves enough credit. Because she can’t not pay attention to things, she can’t not pay attention to her feelings either. On the one side, she’s sensitive, emotional, etc. she’s also hyperaware of herself. The fear and subtle bits of oppression to neordivergence—it’s a rough go. When you’re able to know it’s not your fault. Imagine profusely sweating and feeling gross but no one else is sweating—it’s dysregulating. But if everyone is sweating, you feel better. But we don’t do a lot in America to normalize neurodivergence, and neurodivergent folx sometimes get pity “let me make it easier,” but we don’t need easier, you need more different. We encounter more failure before breakfast, you actually don’t get to skip that and it’s a fun saying, but it’s actually quite painful. How little we think of learning differently—think about how we know there are fonts that would help everyone read, every single person without dyslexia could read it, too—but we don’t do that. Some people with ADHD need breaks, some don’t—but we don’t plan a world where you can choose, either you’re supposed to work it or take breaks (one or the other). When we can go to habits, rituals, chunking, outsourcing things, decision fatigue reduction, whatever you can do to make it easier, do it, take the win. 

What is a sonic boom? A sonic boom is a sound associated with shock waves created when an object travels through the air faster than the speed of sound (see Wikipedia)

 How does sound move through space? It doesn't. "You cannot hear any sounds in near-empty regions of space. Sound travels through the vibration of atoms and molecules in a medium (such as air or water). In space, where there is no air, sound has no way to travel." (see: CalTech Cool Cosmos site)

Brian Cox (the physicist, not the Succession actor)

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS

Chunking: taking two unlike or like items and smashing them together. We all do it a ton in wake up and go to bed routines—all those things get chunked together into one thing “night time routine” (eg. Brushing teeth, putting on pjs, getting into bed, etc.)

Self esteem:  is a global term that has to do with how you feel about yourself, your own sense of self-worth. One thing to consider is that with ADHD, self-esteem can be believing you're going to survive an experience: that the moment of discomfort you're experiencing will be worth it i...