In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu and Azeezah Kanji talk with eminent Anishinaabe legal theorist John Borrows and philosopher Paco Calvo about how we might learn about, learn with, and learn from our plant companions on this earth. Plants show signs of communication and of learning. They produce and respond to many of the same neurochemicals as humans, including anesthetics. They share resources with one another, and when under threat, emit signals of warning and of pain. While Barrows and Calvo both urge us to listen to the Earth, during this conversation we discover that these two thinkers are often listening for different things. The discussion reveals fascinating points of difference and commonality. And in terms of the latter, the point both John and Paco insist upon is that we maintain our separation from other beings at our peril and at a loss.

Dr. John Borrows, BA, MA, JD, LLM, PhD, LLD, FRSC, is Canada's pre-eminent legal scholar and a global leader in the field of Indigenous legal traditions and Aboriginal rights. John holds the Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Law at the University of Victoria as well as the Law Foundation Chair in Aboriginal Justice and Governance.

Paco Calvo is a renowned cognitive scientist and philosopher of biology, known for his groundbreaking research in the field of plant cognition and intelligence. He is a professor at the University of Murcia in Spain, where he leads the Minimal Intelligence Lab (MINT Lab), focusing on the study of minimal cognition in plants. Calvo’s interdisciplinary work combines insights from biology, philosophy, and cognitive science to explore the fascinating world of plant behavior, decision-making, and problem-solving.

https://www.uvic.ca/law/facultystaff/facultydirectory/borrows.php

https://www.um.es/mintlab/index.php/about/people/paco-calvo/

00:02 Introduction to Plant Communication

00:21 Conversation with John Burrows and Paco Calvo

01:11 Challenging Pre-existing Concepts about Intelligence

01:37 Exploring Plant Intelligence

02:32 Understanding Human Intelligence

04:47 Challenging Orthodox Cognitive Psychology

05:34 Ecological Approach to Intelligence

07:26 The Role of Indigenous Knowledge in Understanding Intelligence

09:11 Understanding Anishinaabe Law and Ethical Traditions

12:09 The Role of Treaties in Indigenous Peoples' Relationships with Nature

38:51 The Role of Education in Understanding Ecological Cognition

45:28 The Importance of Experiential Learning and Literacy Beyond Books

46:24 The Power of Ignorance and Openness to Knowledge

50:00 The Ethical Obligations to the More Than Human World

01:07:43 The Role of Religion in Understanding Our Relationship with the More Than Human World

01:16:16 The Importance of Slowing Down to Appreciate Plant Behavior

01:17:39 The Co-Evolutionary Perspective of Life

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