Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from Scot McKnight. The quote challenges the notion that leaders ought to control and asserts, instead, that leaders, particularly pastors, are actually followers of Jesus. Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of biblical leadership, rooted in self-sacrifice, care, and a focus on mission. He highlights the need to move away from dysfunctional patterns of leadership and instead raise up models of leadership that honor Jesus and reflect God's desire for the world. Ultimately, leadership is seen as a function, not a title, with leaders taking personal responsibility and inviting others to join in following Jesus and fulfilling His mission on Earth.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse.

"We are not leaders of others; we are followers of Jesus. 'Join us in following Jesus,' is the pastor's call."

Ep. 92 is a conversation inspired by Scot Mcknight's and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov.

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Angie Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry Program at Denver Seminary and the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty.

What if you’ve got a problem and you cannot for the life of you find a solution.  You also can’t find a book that tells you what to do.  And you can’t find an expert to take care of the problem for you.

That's what's called an adaptive challenge and churches are full of adaptive challenges.  And that’s what we’re talking about in this episode with Angie Ward.


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Angie Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry Program at Denver Seminary and the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty.
• Adaptive challenges are the kinds of challenges no one has faced before and for which there are no experts.
• According to Angie Ward, a technical challenge is a challenge for which there is a clear path or solution.
• When there is a gap between espoused values and actual values, that is likely an adaptive challenge.
• Angie Ward points out that unresolved conflict or work avoidance in a church or organization can be an adaptive challenge.
• Angie Ward stresses that emotions can shift a challenge to become more of an adaptive challenge.
• Every change changes everything.
• Adaptive leadership involves both managing people’s distress and giving the work back to the people.
• According to Angie Ward, humility is the most important posture we need to take when navigating adaptive challenges.
• We lead out of who we are, not just what we do.
• When leading adaptively, Angie Ward says that process matters more than outcome.
• Emotional health is key to good leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Angie Ward:
  • Website – www.angiewardphd.com
  • The Big C Church Podcast
• Books mentioned:
  • Uncharted Leadership, by Angie Ward
  • Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazzero

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson talk about the importance of relationship in ministry leadership. They discuss how leaders can fall into the trap of narcissism when they lack deep relationships, leading to a sense of loneliness that they try to fill with success or power. They also explore how relationship is at the heart of adaptive leadership, as leaders must accompany people through change and transformation. The conversation emphasizes the need for healthy relationships both on an individual level and within larger systems, as they are crucial for healing brokenness and nourishing community.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership.

"“The story of God is the story of relationship. From the very beginning, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit create human beings in and for relationship. And I think our brokenness is brokenness in and around relationship."

Ep. 82 is a conversation inspired by Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.

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E.K. Strawser is a co-vocational pastor of Ma Ke Alo o in Honolulu and the author of Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

We've got a lot of discipleship programs in our churches.  But how effective are they?  Are they leading to real transformation in people's lives?  In this episode, E.K. Strawser discuss how churches can cultivate real transformation in their people's lives.



THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• E.K. Strawser is a co-vocational pastor of Ma Ke Alo o in Honolulu and the author of Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.
• Discipleship, according to E.K. Strawser, is imitating Jesus so that our spiritual confidence increases and our social competence as Christians increases.
• Discipleship without mission is discipleship without Christ.
• Discipleship has to be local.
• When discipleship is peripheral in a church, three things tend to be true:
  • Resources and energy are poured primarily into a weekly teaching time.
  • People are being moved to a weekly worship service.
  • Leadership has a vision for the church (as opposed to a vision for the community).
• But when discipleship is central in a church, these three things tend to be true:
  • Resources and energy are poured into imitation, providing tools and pathways to help people enter a life of discipleship.
  • People are being moved to the community around them.
  • Leadership has a vision for renewal in their local community.
• E.K. Strawser describes what centered discipleship looks like in her church.
• In looking for leaders in E.K. Strawser’s church, they look for “a discipled disciple-maker who has a heart for the community around them and have identified a space of mission and who are inviting others to do this with them.”
• Mission-oriented discipleship requires lots of experimentation.
• E.K. Strawser says that every discipleship pathway ought to look different in every community and neighborhood, but all of them should reflect the likeness of Christ.
• Churches need to look for certain developing marks of maturity in the people engaged in their discipleship pathways in order to know that the pathway they have chosen is actually working.
• Four marks of spiritual maturity:
  • Character – Are people actually becoming more like Jesus?
  • Christlike theology – Are we actually borrowing from Jesus how to think about God and the world?
  • Christlike wisdom – Are we becoming people who can navigate the complexities of life well together?
  • Being sent – We understand that we are a people sent by God into the world.
• As leaders who long to lead people into deep discipleship, our first job is to love the people God has entrusted to us.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• E.K. Strawser:
  • Website – www.centeringdiscipleship.com
• V3 Movement
• Books mentioned:
  • Centering Discipleship, by E.K. Strawser
• Church Leadership Institute

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1In this episode Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the challenges faced by ministry leaders in times of change. They discuss a quote from Kurt Fredrickson that highlights how churches were previously overprogrammed and under-discipled. Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the need for adaptive thinking and creative approaches to discipleship, moving away from traditional programming and towards a mission-focused, community-centered approach. They explore the purpose of discipleship as formation for the sake of mission and the need to reframe our understanding of discipleship in light of these changing times.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Kurt Fredrickson in Episode 103: Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid.

"Churches pre-Covid were over-programmed and under-discipled."

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We live in a world in which it is so easy to demonize and dehumanize people who are not like us.  Or we categorize people and forget their humanity.

But that’s the exact opposite of what Jesus did.  Jesus humanized people.  He treated every human being as a beloved child of God.  Jesus treated every individual he encountered as a person.

That’s what we're discussing in this conversation with Paul Louis Metzger, the author of More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture.


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Paul Louis Metzger is professor of Christian theology and theology of culture at Multnomah University and Seminary and the author of More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture.
• We have a tendency in our society to turn people into things.
• The issue of treating people as things has become very personal for Paul Louis Metzger ever since his son suffered a traumatic brain injury in a car accident several years ago.
• Personhood, according to Paul Louis Metzger, has to do with inviolability, unfathomability, and unrepeatability.
• Attributing personhood to one another is a matter of seeking to affirm an individual’s agency, showing them respect, listening to them, and being present with them.
• Paul Louis Metzger reflects on the way those with Down’s Syndrome are often thought of as having a lower quality of life, when the opposite often seems to be true.  And, yet, the value of their personhood is frequently in question.
• Markus Watson reflects on the ways churches tend to “thingify” people, both inside and outside the church.
• When we talk about people, communities, and families as giving units, that’s the language of commodification.
• People consume, but people should not be reduced to patterns of consumption.
• Paul Louis Metzger unpacks the Prodigal Son story as a way of thinking about treating people as persons.
• “When we gain a sense of our significance and worth—not because of how big our church is or how well-known we are or whatever the case might be, how many books we sell, how many this or how many that—but because we are loved.  We exist because we are loved.  That frees pastors up to evangelize better.  To be better shepherds.  They’re not going to be hired hands or wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• New Wine Institute
• Uncommon Good, Uncommon God (Patheos blog)
• Books mentioned:
  • More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture, by Paul Louis Metzger
  • The Way of Chuang Tzu, by Thomas Merton
  • Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God’s Mission, by Markus Watson
  • Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen
  • Sharing Faith, by Thomas Groome

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the influence of the Enlightenment and individualism on middle-class white individuals, and how this impacts their understanding of faith and community. They emphasize the importance of engaging with different perspectives and reading the Bible in community with people who are not like us in order to break free from these cultural norms and develop a more holistic understanding of spirituality and leadership.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tom Sine in Episode 118: Forecasting and Innovation.

“I think a lot of us in Western culture have allowed the Enlightenment and a very individualistic way of life to become normative, particularly for middle-class white folks.”

Ep. 118 is a conversation inspired by Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen's book, 2020s Foresight.

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Jennifer Holberg is Professor and Chair of the Department of English at Calvin University and author Nourishing Narratives.

The church gives us stories to imagine ourselves into.  Stories shape us.  At the same time, pastors and ministry leaders need to recognize that every person in our church brings their own stories.  And, so, how can we create space to share and hear one another’s stories—as we are shaped by the story of the gospel?


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jennifer Holberg is Professor and Chair of the Department of English at Calvin University and author Nourishing Narratives.
• Jennifer Holberg shares what she loves about teaching.
• “As people of faith, we have stories that give us more to be hopeful about, more to tell us how beloved we are.  And they really counteract a lot of the stories that we have been told or tell ourselves.”
• Stories can be positive forces in our lives or they can negatively impact us.  It depends on the stories we tell and believe.
• According to Jennifer Holberg, how we interpret stories matters.
• The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves impact our identity. But Jennifer Holberg holds that we can tell ourselves new stories.
• Jennifer Holberg says, “Church communities, if they are functional, give us other stories to imagine ourselves into.”
• The Bible gives us many stories to help us understand our lives.  As opposed to society, which often only gives one story (wealth, success, etc.).
• Pastors, in their teaching, need to understand what stories people are bringing with them into the church.
• We need spaces in church for people to tell their stories.
• According to Jennifer Holberg, it’s important for all the generations in the church to share their stories with the other generations.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Jennifer Holberg:
  • Calvin University
  • Center fot Faith and Writing
• Books mentioned:
  • Nourishing Narratives, by Jennifer Holberg
  • Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
  • The Story of You, by Ian Morgan Cron
• Related episodes mentioned:
  • Episode 121: Rewrite Your Story, with Ian Morgan Cron, author of The Story of You

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the vital role of relationships in ministry leadership. Tod emphasizes the importance of cultivating partnerships, friendships, and mentorships as essential sources of support and vulnerability. They explore the connection between relationships and self-reflection, particularly in navigating challenging leadership situations. With practical insights and personal anecdotes, this episode offers guidance on building a strong support network for leaders seeking to grow both their outer ministry and inner discipleship. Don't miss this enlightening conversation on the transformative power of relationships in leadership.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tod Bolsinger in Episode 120: Forming Leadership Resilience.

"We need more relationships. If you do nothing else this year, ask yourself, 'Do I have the kinds of relationships that allow me to do vulnerable self-reflection?'"

Ep. 120 is a conversation inspired by Tod Bolsinger's book, Tempered Resilience.

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Jim Wilder is the author Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms and the resident neurotheologian at Life Model Works.

In this episode, Jim Wilder discusses how we become who we are created to be through the lens of neurotheology.  In other words, what role does your brain play in forming you into the person you were created to be?

And how can an understanding of how the brain works help us develop environments in our churches that nurture deep spiritual formation among our people and help them both become who they were created to be and fulfill the purpose for which they were created?


THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Jim Wilder is the author Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms and the resident neurotheologian at Life Model Works.
• Jim Wilder explains what a “neuro-theologian” is.
• Jim Wilder’s book, Renovated, is based on a conference Jim did with Dallas Willard before he passed away.
• Spiritual maturity and natural maturity are both rooted in relationship and are part and parcel of each other.
• Attachment love is formed with people who are glad to be with us.
• Spiritual formation happens as people develop attachment love with one another and with God.
• Human beings often lose their sense of peace.  To find our way back to peace the brain’s best path is through being thankful.
• According to Jim Wilder, “mutual mind” (or intersubjectivity) happens when two peoples subconscious processing begins to line up with each other.  Their brains begin to produce the same chemistry, the same thoughts, the same patterns.
• Jim Wilder asks: Would God give us the capacity for mutual mind and not make use of it himself?
• Spiritual disciplines create the space where mutual mind with God can develop.
• According to Jim Wilder, after the Vietnam War, there was a huge professionalization of the clergy, where pastors were now rated on how well they got results in their job, as opposed to developing loving relationships with people.
• If salvation is about becoming the person God meant us to be—and God was intelligent—then by being exactly who God is creating you to be, you will accomplish what God wants done at the moment.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Books mentioned:
  • Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms, by Jim Wilder
  • Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazzero
  • Shame and Grace, by Lewis Smedes
  • Becoming a Face of Grace: Navigating Lasting Relationship with God and Others, by Ed Khouri

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