Swimming with Allocators

Swimming with Allocators

By Earnest Sweat, Alexa BinnsBusinessEntrepreneurshipInvestingManagement
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Swimming with Allocators episodes

  • Today’s Opportunities and Landscape in Canadian Venture Capital

    Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

    • John’s journey from operator to allocator (0:49)
    • Misalignment in the Market (3:30)
    • RBCx’s Venture Capital Approach (5:40)
    • Key Insights on Fund Investing (8:33)
    • Strategic Advantages of RBCx (10:14)
    • Advice for Corporates on Fund Practices (12:47)
    • Building Anchor Partnerships (14:00)
    • Insider Segment: Challenges for Emerging Managers (17:20)
    • Navigating Due Diligence Processes (19:04)
    • LPA Considerations for Institutional Investors (21:44)
    • Mortgage Challenges for Founders (25:59)
    • Surprises of Being an LP (27:37)
    • Understanding the Capital Food Chain (28:26)
    • Exit Value Insights (30:22)
    • Canadian Venture Market Dynamics (34:15)
    • Government Support in Early Stages (36:38)
    • Fundraising Trends in Canada (39:14)
    • Exit Value to Fund Size Ratios (41:09)
    • Future Outlook for Canadian Venture (42:06)
    • Canadian Life Sciences Focus (44:08)
    • Exit Opportunities in Venture (46:23)
    • Liquidity Challenges Ahead (48:05)
    • Final thoughts and takeaways (49:11)
    • John Rikhtegar is the Director of Capital at RBCx in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Prior to joining RBCx, John was the Chief of Staff & VP of Strategic Operations at Kognitiv Corporation for 10 months, where he contributed significantly to the company's strategic initiatives. Before that, he was the Head of Commerce Revenue, EMEA, at VaynerCommerce in London, United Kingdom, for 9 months, focusing on expanding the company's revenue streams across Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. John also worked as an Enterprise eCommerce Consultant at Shopify Plus in the Waterloo, Canada area, where he advised high-growth, high-volume merchants on scaling and succeeding in the competitive eCommerce space. 

      Gunderson Dettmer is the preeminent international law firm with an exclusive focus on the innovation economy. The firm serves market-leading venture capital and growth equity investors and pioneering companies through inception, growth and maturity, as well as groundbreaking public companies that result from the global venture capital ecosystem. The firm’s clear-cut focus and well-honed technical skill enables an accelerated pace and unmatched efficiency, delivering best-in-class value at each phase of a client’s business. Learn more: www.gunder.com. 

      Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

      The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

      Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

      52 min
    • Building Relationships with Asian Limited Partners with Chris Shen of Revere VC

      Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

      • Chris Shen's Background and LP Career Journey (0:52)
      • US-China Geopolitics, History, and MacroEconomics (3:27)
      • Developing Relationships with Asian Allocators (8:02)
      • Flavor of GP and Navigating Family Offices in Asia (11:31)
      • Understanding LP Motivations (16:52)
      • Importance of Liquidity for Investors (18:35)
      • Working with Corporate Venture Capital Groups (22:15)
      • De-risking Perception for Corporates (24:28)
      • Diversity of VC Ecosystem (30:53)
      • Insider segment: Focusing on the Innovation Economy (32:01)
      • Learning the ropes of venture capital (38:18)
      • Advice for junior investors (40:30)
      • Personal experiences and growth in investing (43:27)
      • Asian American foundation and the Committee of 100 (45:33)
      • C100 organization (49:57)
      • Connecting with Chris and Final Takeaways (50:27)
      • Chris Shen has over 15 years of financial services, investments and legal experience in both the United States and Asia. He is the co-founder of Revere, which is building a tech-enabled, data-driven platform specializing in emerging managers – like Cambridge Associates for the modern allocator. l. Previously, Chris was a managing director at LQ Pacific Partners, a Hong Kong based merchant bank focusing on tech investments. Chris was also a founding partner of West 22nd Capital Advisers, a Hong Kong-based single family office and SFC-licensed investment firm. Chris led investments in external asset managers, established the firm’s operations and was a member of the investment committee. Before moving to the buy side, Chris was a senior corporate finance and investment funds lawyer with Baker McKenzie, with a pan-Asia practice representing large corporates, financial institutions, and fund managers.

        Gunderson Dettmer is the preeminent international law firm with an exclusive focus on the innovation economy. The firm serves market-leading venture capital and growth equity investors and pioneering companies through inception, growth and maturity, as well as groundbreaking public companies that result from the global venture capital ecosystem. The firm’s clear-cut focus and well-honed technical skill enables an accelerated pace and unmatched efficiency, delivering best-in-class value at each phase of a client’s business. Learn more: www.gunder.com. 

        Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

        The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


        Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

        Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

        54 min
      • Opportunities in Today’s Secondary Market with Christopher Johnson of Knightsbridge Advisers

        Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

        • Christopher’s Background and Journey in Venture (0:13)
        • Venture Capital as a Place of Hope (4:33)
        • Macroeconomic Trends in Venture (5:50)
        • Activity in the Secondary Market (7:44)
        • Platforms and Working with Them (12:30)
        • LPs' Preferences in the Market (14:37)
        • The role of venture capital in the global economy (16:43)
        • Working with institutional LPs (17:38)
        • Tailoring services for different client types (19:00)
        • Structural approach to client services (22:19)
        • Navigating the slow-moving venture capital landscape (24:41)
        • Insider Segment: Vested’s API integration (27:29)
        • Cold emails vs. Warm intros (00:31:55)
        • Looking beyond current AI trends (33:45)
        • Meeting etiquette and deal pitches (35:29)
        • Long-term relationships in venture capital (39:07)
        • Transitioning within venture capital firms (42:32)
        • Fundraising advice and market entry strategy (45:52)
        • Final thoughts and closing remarks (47:22)
        • Knightsbridge Advisers has dedicated more than four decades to building premier portfolios of venture capital relationships in the industry and providing institutional investors access to strong performing venture managers. Knightsbridge focuses on fund of funds and separately managed accounts for primary, secondary, and opportunistic investments in venture capital and growth equity partnerships. Learn more: knightsbridgevc.com/ 

          Vested empowers startup employees to capitalize on their hard-earned equity, primarily by providing funding to help exercise stock options. The company’s overarching mission is to democratize access to equity, ensuring that startup employees both understand and have a real chance to tangibly benefit from the shares they’re granted.

          Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

          The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


          Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

          50 min
        • DDQ: Megafunds Are Back; Adjusting Your LP and VC Strategy Accordingly with Earnest Sweat and Alexa Binns

          Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

          • The Series A Crunch (0:59)
          • Concentration of LP Capital in Mega Funds (4:22)
          • Partnership Questions in VC (12:24)
          • Start, Bench, Cut of Alternative Investment Products (21:34)
          • Emergence of Solo GPs and Potential Mergers (27:56)
          • Debate on the Potential of 2024 as a Breakout Vintage Year (30:28)
          • LP Update Strategies and Being a Better Ally (33:20)
          • The Power Law (41:22)
          • The Next Novel Approach (42:53)
          • Venture Capital's Future (44:30)
          • Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

            The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


            Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

            Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

            48 min
          • Venture Capital for the State of California with Derrick Tang of IBank California

            Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

            • Derrick’s background in venture capital (0:19)
            • Transition to public sector (2:27)
            • The Government's role in innovation (4:55)
            • Public perception of government in venture capital (8:40)
            • Government programs for venture capital (10:48)
            • Constraints of public funding (13:11)
            • Coordination among state programs (15:18)
            • Purpose of public venture funds (17:14)
            • Supporting Underrepresented Small Businesses (17:34)
            • Investing in Diverse Teams (22:41)
            • Insider Segment: Vested’s Differentiation from Competitors (24:59)
            • Considerations for Pre-IPO Shares (25:35)
            • Thought Leaders in the LP Community (27:11)
            • Allocation for Diversity and Climate (29:16)
            • Definition of Climate Justice (31:01)
            • Unique Aspects of Climate Investing (34:02)
            • Mission and Returns in Inclusive Investing (37:30)
            • Fund Size and Deployment (40:35)
            • Final thoughts and takeaways (42:15)
            • Derrick Tang serves as the Deputy Director of Venture Capital at IBank California, a role he was appointed to by Governor Gavin Newsom. With a rich background in climate change, venture capital, and government leadership, Derrick has dedicated his career to increasing access to capital for entrepreneurs. His work focuses on supporting underrepresented fund managers and entrepreneurs, with an additional emphasis on climate justice investments. Derrick's previous roles include leading the Climate Investments team at the Bay Area Air Quality Management District and managing grants at the California Clean Energy Fund (CalCEF). He holds a B.S. in Chemical Engineering from Cornell University and is passionate about leveraging venture capital to drive social and environmental change.

              Vested empowers startup employees to capitalize on their hard-earned equity, primarily by providing funding to help exercise stock options. The company’s overarching mission is to democratize access to equity, ensuring that startup employees both understand and have a real chance to tangibly benefit from the shares they’re granted.

              Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

              The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


              Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

              Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

              45 min
            • Starting a Public Venture Program from Scratch with Peter Teneriello

              Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

              • Peter’s background and journey Into finance (0:58)
              • Strategy of Institutional LPs (2:30)
              • Bandwidth Constraints and Time Management (5:53)
              • Lessons Learned from Early Stage Programs (8:01)
              • Criteria for Fund Managers (10:11)
              • Transition to Institutional LP and Governance Structure (12:56)
              • Challenges Faced by Institutional LPs (16:10)
              • Excitement about certain investment strategies (19:24)
              • Overview of the Kauffman Fellows program (23:04)
              • Insider Segment: Vested's target audience and investor interest (24:32)
              • Ingredients for successful LP-VC partnership (30:45)
              • Role of limited partners in the future of venture capital (33:24)
              • Proud venture capital investment (35:49)
              • Investing with Creativity and Conviction (38:03)
              • Final thoughts and takeaways (38:50)
              • Peter Teneriello is a multifaceted professional with a rich background in finance and private equity. At 33, he boasts a B.B.A. from the University of Notre Dame, complemented by his participation in the Kauffman Fellows Program. His career includes significant roles at Sapient Capital, Stifel Financial Corp., and the Texas Municipal Retirement System. As a Kauffman Fellow, Peter has demonstrated a commitment to innovation and leadership in the investment field. His interests in technology and ethical considerations in AI highlight his forward-thinking approach.

                Vested empowers startup employees to capitalize on their hard-earned equity, primarily by providing funding to help exercise stock options. The company’s overarching mission is to democratize access to equity, ensuring that startup employees both understand and have a real chance to tangibly benefit from the shares they’re granted.

                Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

                The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


                Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

                Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

                41 min
              • Impact Investing: Past, Present, and Future with Margot Kane of Spring Point Partners

                Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

                • The Growth and Evolution of Impact Investing (0:47)
                • Misconceptions about Impact Investing (3:34)
                • Impact Investing in Political Climate (7:59)
                • Spring Point Partners' Mission (11:07)
                • Venture Capital and Impact Strategy (12:28)
                • Assessing and Vetting Fund Managers (14:41)
                • Impact Labeling for Fund Managers (16:47)
                • Fundraising Strength and Networked Wealth (19:13)
                • Silicon Valley Diversity (23:03)
                • Shared Ownership and Participatory Investment Models (28:31)
                • Insider Segment: Stock Option Funding (33:33)
                • Climate Investment Opportunities (42:13)
                • Intersection of Planetary and Human Well-Being (44:06)
                • Community Ownership in Renewable Energy (46:04)
                • Industries and Investment Trends to Avoid (49:47)
                • Applying Historical Frameworks to Investing (55:04)
                • Final Thoughts and Takeaways (57:02)
                • Spring Point Partners is a social impact organization that invests in the transformational leaders, networks, and solutions that power community change and advance justice. We do this by: 

                  • Seeking out and supporting community leaders who have the vision to see what’s possible and the drive to make that real.
                  • Connecting the experience of partners with comprehensive and flexible supports for shared learning and impact. 
                  • Investing in innovative ideas and adaptive solutions that can spark and scale change for all. 
                  • Whether we’re partnering on youth development, human-centered learning, animal welfare or water sector leadership or investing in new business models that close opportunity gaps and boost social and economic mobility, we center equity and justice in all we do — supporting individuals and ideas that can have a catalytic impact in their communities and on our society.  Together, let’s change the way social impact is achieved. Learn more: www.thespringpoint.com.

                    Vested empowers startup employees to capitalize on their hard-earned equity, primarily by providing funding to help exercise stock options. The company’s overarching mission is to democratize access to equity, ensuring that startup employees both understand and have a real chance to tangibly benefit from the shares they’re granted.

                    Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies.

                    The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


                    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

                    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

                    59 min
                  • QED Chronicles: Lessons Learned from a Top VC for Selecting New Managers with Alex Edelson

                    Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

                    • Alex's experience as a VC turned LP (0:51)
                    • Insights into evaluating smaller funds (2:20)
                    • Characteristics of a good LP (6:44)
                    • Role of an LP as a sounding board (8:06)
                    • Constructing an LPAC (10:39)
                    • Continuing relationships with funds (12:15)
                    • Pitch to LPs for Slipstream Investors (14:17)
                    • Evaluating Emerging Managers (18:53)
                    • Sector-Focused Funds (24:05)
                    • Insider Segment: Navigating Venture Capital’s Evolution (25:45)
                    • Diversification of Investment Opportunities (28:35)
                    • Future of Venture Capital (30:38)
                    • Fund Management and Responsibilities (34:45)
                    • Active Investing and Fund Sourcing (35:33)
                    • Optimal Time for Venture Investment (37:08)
                    • Final thoughts and takeaways (38:26)
                    • Alex Edelson is the Founder and General Partner of Slipstream Investors. Before starting Slipstream, he worked at QED Investors, a top fintech-focused venture capital firm with $4.3 billion in assets under management. Alex joined as Nigel Morris's Chief of Staff and became the Chief Operating Officer and General Counsel. He previously worked at a fintech startup and spent seven years practicing law. Alex holds a J.D. and B.A. from the University of Michigan. Learn more at www.slipstream investors.com.

                      Sydecar.io is a frictionless deal execution platform for venture investors. Our platform handles back-office operations for venture investors, automating banking, compliance, contracts, and reporting so that customers can focus on making deals and building relationships. Learn more at www.sydecar.io.

                      Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies.

                      The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


                      Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

                      Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

                      41 min
                    • Expanding Your Investment Strategy to Include Venture Capital with Kate Nevin

                      Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

                      • The Origin Story of TSWII (1:04)
                      • Kate entering the finance industry (6:07)
                      • Family dynamics and alignment in investing (8:28)
                      • Transition to private investments (00:11:02)
                      • Exploring the full spectrum of investments (15:14)
                      • Sourcing and Early Stage Investment (18:58)
                      • Investing in Female Managers (22:26)
                      • Innovating for Parity (24:02)
                      • Insider Segment: Simplifying SPVs for fund managers (26:47)
                      • Trends in Special Purpose Vehicles (29:53)
                      • Negotiating Terms and Warehousing Deals (32:34)
                      • Sustaining Interest in Venture Capital (35:59)
                      • Investing in Diversity and Community Building (36:41)
                      • Solving Big Problems and Impact Investing (40:00)
                      • Sourcing and Supporting Emerging Managers (43:03)
                      • Wealth Transfer and Women's Investing (50:32)
                      • Encouraging Women to talk about money and investing (55:31)
                      • Final thoughts and takeaways (58:07)
                      • Kate Nevin is President and Portfolio Manager at TSWII Capital Advisors, a role she has held for over 20 years. She is active with many industry groups (such as The Academy of Institutional Investors and Nexus) and community organizations focused on conservation and gender equality. She was a Riley Diversity Fellow. Both in her work at TSWII and as a diversity fellow, Kate has ensured that female founders have access to mentoring, networks, and coaching in order to thrive. Learn more: tswii.com.

                        Sydecar.io is a frictionless deal execution platform for venture investors. Our platform handles back-office operations for venture investors, automating banking, compliance, contracts, and reporting so that customers can focus on making deals and building relationships. Learn more at www.sydecar.io.

                        Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

                        The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


                        Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

                        Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

                        1 hr 1 min
                      • The Strategy for Selecting Top Co-Investments as a Limited Partner with Josh Porter

                        Highlights from this week’s conversation include:

                        • The LA venture ecosystem (0:43)
                        • Unique investment opportunities in LA (3:54)
                        • Leveraging entertainment and deep tech in LA (6:42)
                        • The Partnership between Josh and Ankeet (7:47)
                        • Finding the right partner (9:23)
                        • The goal of FirstLook Partners (11:35)
                        • Fee structure of fund of funds (15:47)
                        • Strategy Shifts and Market Validation (18:13)
                        • Co-Investment Strategy (20:05)
                        • Investment Thesis and Co-Investment Opportunities (21:30)
                        • Insider Segment: Fund Administration and the Rise of Hybrid Fund Models (24:42)
                        • Product Development and Core Focus (27:18)
                        • Future of Venture Capital and Hybrid Fund Models (31:36)
                        • Sourcing new managers (36:46)
                        • Criteria for manager selection (37:41)
                        • Unique investment strategies (38:24)
                        • Venture allocation and market dynamics (43:40)
                        • Challenges in decision-making and final takeaways (44:57)
                        • Founded in 2023, FirstLook Partners is a hybrid fund of funds investing in venture capital firms under $50M and software companies. FirstLook is managed by Josh Porter in Los Angeles, CA and Ankeet Kansupada in Chicago, IL. Visit their website at firstlookpartners.com.

                          Sydecar.io is a frictionless deal execution platform for venture investors. Our platform handles back-office operations for venture investors, automating banking, compliance, contracts, and reporting so that customers can focus on making deals and building relationships. Learn more at www.sydecar.io.

                          Swimming with Allocators is a podcast that dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned various hats in the VC ecosystem. Each episode, we explore where the future opportunities lie in the VC landscape with insights from top LPs on their investment strategies and industry experts shedding light on emerging trends and technologies. 

                          The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this podcast are for general informational purposes only.


                          Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

                          49 min

                        About Swimming with Allocators

                        From the publisher's feed

                        Swimming with Allocators dives into the intriguing world of Venture Capital from an LP (Limited Partner) perspective. Hosts Alexa Binns and Earnest Sweat are seasoned professionals who have donned…

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