Will Saletan returns to discuss his book, The Corruption of Lindsey Graham: A Case Study in the Rise of Authoritarianism. It's a fascinating, well-sourced study on the public record of Lindsey Graham since 2015 that helps us better understand what's happened to the Republican Party since the rise of Trump. When and why did many Republicans start capitulating to Donald Trump? We discussed how it's not just the rhetoric that changes; but the people themselves that change. As Will profoundly points out, "The more evil you are convinced the other party is, the more evil you will support on the theory that your guy is less evil than theirs." We also covered how Will does "after-action reports" as a journalist to see what he got wrong in his earlier writing in order to calibrate his current work; making better arguments overall, i.e. "What we're not gonna do is punch the referees;" and we went head first into political prognostications about 2024. 

Will Saletan wrote for Slate for 25 years, having written over 2700 pieces for the daily online magazine. He’s also the author of Bearing Right: How Conservatives Won the Abortion War. Will joined The Bulwark in early 2022. The Bulwark is an important media outlet which provides political analysis and reporting free from the constraints of partisan loyalties or tribal prejudices. And Will Saletan is now the author of the aforementioned The Corruption of Lindsey Graham: A Case Study in the Rise of Authoritarianism.

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

www.threads.net/@coreysnathan

www.thebulwark.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Corruption-of-Lindsey-Graham.pdf

www.thebulwark.com/

www.threads.net/@wsaletan

It was a pleasure to be joined by the Editor in Chief of CHRISTIANITY TODAY, Dr. Russell Moore, to discuss his new book LOSING OUR RELIGION. So, of course, we started with the very controversial topic of whether dogs go to heaven! But it was actually a nice way to break the ice before getting into the serious subject of depression. We talked about so much including: How professing Christians dismiss the words of Jesus as being "not for our time"; becoming disillusioned, as in losing some illusions that we previously held; the problem of "protecting the ministry," truth be damned; old coalitions blowing up and surprising new coalitions forming; and much, much more.

Dr. Russell Moore is Editor in Chief of Christianity Today and is the author of Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America. Dr. Moore served previously as President of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and, before that, as the chief academic officer and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he also taught theology and ethics. Moore was a Fellow at the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics and currently serves on the board of Becket Law which exists to defend the free exercise of all faiths, from Anglican to Zoroastrian. He also hosts the weekly podcast The Russell Moore Show and is co-host of Christianity Today’s weekly news and analysis podcast, The Bulletin. And certainly not least among his roles is husband to Maria, dad of five sons and Bible teacher at their congregation, Immanuel Church.

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

www.threads.net/@coreysnathan

www.threads.net/@russellmoore

www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/709965/losing-our-religion-by-russell-moore/

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/russell-moore-show/

We are joined in this episode by Writer, Producer, Actor and Mentor, LARRY WILMORE! We discussed what drew Larry to comedy, writing, acting and producing; and, yes, we did talk about the WGA strike; why, as a kid, he was compelled by the work of such greats as Houdini, Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers and Flip Wilson; rebounding from professional setbacks and keeping a healthy mindset; his thoughts on the "TP&R question" - how to be better at talking about politics and religion across our differences; and we got pretty deep with the concept of consciousness, meaning and why humans have a desire to have a life of meaning.

Emmy Award winner Larry Wilmore is a prolific producer, actor, comedian, and writer. He is also the host of the excellent podcast Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air. Larry is perhaps best known for his role as host of Comedy Central’s The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore and as the “Senior Black Correspondent” on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Off-screen, Larry serves as co-creator and consulting producer on HBO’s Insecure, and helped to launch ABC’s black-ish as an executive producer and is a co-creator of the spin-off Grownish. Previously, he has written for In Living Color, The PJ’s (which he co-created), The Office (on which he also appeared), and The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. He also served as creator, writer, and executive producer of The Bernie Mac Show, which earned him his Emmy for “Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series” and a 2001 Peabody Award. In 2016, Larry hosted the White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner. Larry is also an author, having released his first book, I’d Rather We Got Casinos and Other Black Thoughts, in January 2009.

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

www.threads.net/@coreysnathan

www.theringer.com/larry-wilmore-black-on-air

Reasonable Doubt on Hulu - www.hulu.com/series/reasonable-doubt-226c1cc5-ecc9-4d26-83a6-40131a93ed19

Jerry and Marge Go Large - www.paramountplus.com/shows/paramount-plus/video/B8wTNAzgYrU2jPLef3IehO_xl_sg15pn/jerry-marge-go-large-cast-featurette-paramount-/

twitter.com/larrywilmore

www.threads.net/@larrywilmore

First, can we talk about polling? Todd Rose can! Todd and his team at Populace are figuring out how to do better surveys to get more accurate information. No, really. It’s all about methodology. And wow, do they have some surprising and encouraging takeaways! In particular, WE’RE NOT REALLY AS DIVIDED SO MUCH AS WE THINK WE’RE DIVIDED. So how much are the loudest, most extreme voices driving the conversation in public spaces? And how many of the rest of us are self-silencing? What about COLLECTIVE ILLUSIONS? What’s the definition of collective illusions? And what are some of the most prevalent ones?

Todd Rose is the co-founder and president of Populace, a think tank committed to ensuring that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives in a thriving society. Prior to Populace, he was a faculty member at Harvard University where he founded the Laboratory for the Science of Individuality and directed the Mind, Brain, and Education program. Todd is the best selling author of Collective Illusions, Dark Horse, and The End of Average. 

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

The Power of the Powerless by Vaclav Havel - https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf

http://www.populace.org/

http://www.toddrose.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Collective-Illusions-Conformity-Complicity-Decisions/dp/0306925680

https://www.threads.net/@coreysnathan

Tim Keller and Michael Gerson were both at the top of the list of guests we wanted to have on TP&R. Sadly we lost both gentlemen within the last year. Mike passed away last November and Tim died in May of this year. But we’re lucky to have Jonathan Rauch and Pete Wehner for this conversation because they were all friends and had a big impact on each other’s lives.

Timothy Keller was senior pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan. As Sam Roberts described him in The New York Times, Tim was "...a best-selling author and theorist of Christianity who performed a modern miracle of his own — establishing a theologically orthodox church in Manhattan that attracted thousands of young professional followers..."

Michael Gerson was a nationally syndicated columnist writing for The Washington Post from 2007 until his death on Nov. 17, 2022. He was the author of HEROIC CONSERVATISM and co-author of CITY OF MAN: RELIGION AND POLITICS IN A NEW ERA. He appeared regularly on the “PBS NewsHour,” “Face the Nation” and other programs. Gerson served as senior adviser at One, a bipartisan organization dedicated to the fight against extreme poverty and preventable diseases. Until 2006, Gerson was a top aide to President George W. Bush as assistant to the president for policy and strategic planning. Prior to that appointment, he served in the White House as assistant to the president for speechwriting, policy adviser, deputy assistant to the president and director of presidential speechwriting.

Jonathan Rauch is the author of numerous books including THE CONSTITUTION OF KNOWLEDGE: A DEFENSE OF TRUTH. He’s a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer at The Atlantic among other publications.

Pete Wehner is also a contributing writer at The Atlantic as well as The New York Times, he’s a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum and the author of several books including THE DEATH OF POLITICS: HOW TO HEAL OUR FRAYED REPUBLIC AFTER TRUMP.

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

Jonathan Rauch and Pete Wehner both return to the TP&R pod. Only this time we get them together! For a little background, Jon and Pete have a number of fundamental differences (eg. Jon is an atheist and Pete is a devout Christian); yet, they also happen to be good friends. So the conversation was flowing before we even hit record. We were discussing Pete's recent essay in THE ATLANTIC "Morality Is for Trump What Colors Are to the Color-Blind." We discussed pervasive cognitive dissonance, specifically on the part of people of faith and their continued embrace of Donald Trump. We also talked about our own need to have epistemological humility. Then we explored a construct that Jon is fleshing out for an upcoming book. That is, the 4 existential questions of 1) Morality, 2) Mortality, 3) Malevolence, and 4) Miracles. 

Pete Wehner is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. His books include The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, City of Man: Religion and Politics in a New Era, which he co-wrote with Michael Gerson, and Wealth and Justice: The Morality of Democratic Capitalism. He was formerly a speechwriter for George W. Bush and a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Peter is a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, and his work also appears in publications including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and National Affairs.

JONATHAN RAUCH, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, is the author of eight books and many articles on public policy, culture, and government. He is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and many other publications including The New Republic, The Economist, Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and interestingly Religion News Service among many others. His latest book is The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth, which we discussed last time Jon joined us on TP&R. One of his earlier works, Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought (published originally in 1993 and then expanded in 2013) defends free speech and robust criticism and remains a highly influential work. And of course, it must be mentioned that Jon is arguably most famous for not liking shrimp!

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

twitter.com/coreysnathan

www.theatlantic.com/author/peter-wehner/

jonathanrauch.typepad.com/

https://braverangels.org/

The Dark Knight clip - www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIYkhb2NjfE

The article on the "Need for Chaos" - royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0147

"What the hell are you talkin' about?!?!" Have you ever yelled that at the Thanksgiving table when someone in the family said something about politics? Or when you're hanging out with friends? Or at your church or synagogue? Or at a PTA meeting? Okay, if you haven't yelled it out loud, have you thought it? Really passionately? What about online? Come on, you know you've had those moments when you saw what a friend or relative said on social media and you just wanted to say, in one way or another, "That's crazy! You're completely wrong!" 

Well, this conversation is with my home town pal, John Deroian. John and I grew up together in central Jersey - Bruce Springsteen country! We see each other now and then at reunions and stuff like that. But we also stay in touch online. And to be honest, we've had a few of those moments when we totally disagree. But what I’ve appreciated about John is that no matter how much we disagree - and John’s not shy about saying what he disagrees with - he’s always respectful. Not only that, sometimes he shares a perspective I hadn’t considered. So I’m grateful for him being candid on stuff we disagree about. And then also, every once in a while, John is open to something I say that he hadn’t considered. So I wanted to bring him on the program to see if we can… Talk about politics & religion without killin’ each other!

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

twitter.com/coreysnathan

www.facebook.com/john.deroian

In this interview, we discuss how Al Cardenas developed his conservative views and why he became a Republican; his personal story of arriving in the U.S. from Cuba all the way to running for Congress and joining the Reagan Administration; some of the ways he helped the Republican Party gain so much ground in Florida politics; why he voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and when he began to question whether he could support him any longer; at what point he got involved in No-Labels and the Problem Solvers caucus; what the goals of No-Labels are; what his thoughts are on the numerous cases against Donald Trump; and what the conversations are like around the dinner table at the Cardenas-Navarro household (Al and Ana Navarro got married in 2019); and much, much more!

You might recognize Al Cardenas as a regular contributor on MEET THE PRESS, as well as his frequent appearances on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, Univision and Telemundo. Al  has served as an adviser to U.S. Presidents and has been named one of Washington DC’s top lobbyists by The Hill. Al was named one of “The Most Influential Leaders in the Latino Community Today” by a number of leading national publications. He is the Vice-Chairman of No-Labels and formerly was Chairman of the American Conservative Union and served two terms as Chairman of the Republican Party of Florida. And Governor Jeb Bush appointed Al as a member of the Board of Trustees of Florida A&M University. He is a former Trustee of Miami Dade College and was named to its “Hall of Fame.”

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

twitter.com/coreysnathan

twitter.com/AlCardenasFL_DC

What was it like for Jennifer Rubin (of The Washington Post and Jen Rubin's Green Room) to be one of the first conservatives to come out publicly against the candidacy of Donald Trump? What about being the subject of one of Trump's attacks on Twitter? How does one go from making a case for neoconservative positions to aligning more consistently with centrist Democratic policies? Was it really such an evolution? Or has the political climate around us changed more radically? What about the career shift from being a highly successful labor lawyer in Hollywood to becoming one of the most widely read and listened to voices in politics? We discussed all this and more on this week's TP&R!

Jennifer Rubin writes reported opinion for The Washington Post and is the host of Jen Rubin’s Green Room. She covers politics and policy, foreign and domestic, and provides insight into the conservative movement, the Republican and Democratic parties, and threats to Western democracies. Jennifer is also an MSNBC contributor, and was with Commentary magazine before joining the Post. Prior to her career in journalism, Jen practiced labor law for two decades. She is also the author of the 2022 book “Resistance: How Women Saved Democracy from Donald Trump.”

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

twitter.com/coreysnathan

twitter.com/JRubinBlogger

www.washingtonpost.com/people/jennifer-rubin/

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jen-rubins-green-room/id1686973843

www.harpercollins.com/products/resistance-jennifer-rubin?variant=39933666066466

Journalistic integrity. How can individual reporters and news outlets uphold their professional ethics? Is it possible in today's environment? How can a journalist get a coveted interview, yet be fair without it becoming a hit job or a puff piece? Is it any different now than 5 or 10 or 25+ years ago, when our guest Bob Cusack of THE HILL first entered the business? What is it like interviewing Donald Trump (which Bob has done 4 times)? How can reporters be equipped to deal with attacks from a subject like Trump who repeatedly refers to the press as "the enemy of the people"? What about situations when correspondents are in harm's way due to such attacks? What lessons can be learned from the demise of companies such as BuzzFeed and Vice Media? Oh, and of course we do a little political prognostication!

Bob Cusack serves as Editor-in-Chief of The Hill, a media platform that provides nonpartisan reporting on the inner workings of Government and the nexus of politics and business. Bob has been reporting on policy and politics in Washington, D.C. since 1995 and has interviewed top newsmakers such as former President Trump, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. He regularly appears on news networks as a non-partisan political analyst and has won six awards from the National Press Club and the Society of Professional Journalists. Bob is also an accomplished tennis player and has appeared in numerous movies and tv shows such as WONDER WOMAN and VEEP.

Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

www.democracygroup.org/shows/talkin-politics-religion

twitter.com/coreysnathan

thehill.com/

thehill.com/people/bob-cusack/