Talking Talmud

A question from a mishnah in Zevachim that contradicts the text here - because of the purging, preparation of the vessels here. Specifically on how that which is absorbed is either permitted or forbidden - and whether that makes a difference. But are the sacrificial meat and the non-Jew's utensils really comparable? Also, a story to close the tractate - that highlights the discussions from the tractate - including non-Jewish practice, including the relationship and dynamic between Jew and non-Jew. Plus, the need for taking care with Halakhah - and making sure that you represent yourself well.

How do we purify different kinds of vessels or utensils? Boiling water should do the trick. Or maybe "olive water." Plus time - whatever that may mean, given the vague term of "season." A minimum of half the day and half the night - that is, 12 hours, out of 24. Also, one who buys utensils from non-Jews who made them... prepare them for use after the handling by the non-Jews via immersing in a mikveh... or in boiling water...or....heating it to white-hot.... or polishing. The precursor to today's "toveling." Plus, when to use which method, or more than one.

Several mishnayot: 1 - A long list of those items that are prohibited and in a mixture, prohibit the entire mixture in any amount. 2 - Libation wine that falls into a cistern prohibits the entire mixture, though it could be sold to an idolater, as long as the libation wine itself is not compensated. 3 - If a stone wine press is covered with pitch, by a non-Jew, and then covered in wine - that is usable. But if it were made of wood - that might be usable (with cleaning), or the alternate view - peel off the pitch altogether. If earthenware, there's no usability. Also, the Gemara delves into how to purify a wine press.

Siyum tomorrow, Sunday!

Mixtures of something permitted with libation wine - is prohibited, no matter how little libation wine is added. But water with wine or wine with water - the question is whether it gives flavor to the mixture as a whole, and also depending on "like" and libation wine or tevel. With all kinds of permutations of mixtures with prohibited things. Also, Rav and Shmuel agree, disagreeing with R. Yochanan and Resh Lakish, who agree.

Terms used in negotiating a sale or a price - and how 4 people must be in agreement for a price to apply (though the customary appraisal is by 3 people) - among other cases. Also, a new mishnah! Using a funnel for wine and discovering a drop left over - it makes the whole thing prohibited, in case it was libation wine. With ramifications, of course. Plus, the Gemara on this mishnah addresses how this liquids can mix - and when they are considered blended halakhically, or moistening a solid, and when not.

2 new mishnayot! (first, on the bottom of the previous daf) - when a military group enters a city in a time of peace, then when the soldiers leave, open barrels of wine are forbidden, but sealed ones are permitted. In a time of war, even the open ones are permitted, taking it as a given that during war, the soldiers would not have time to pour libations. This is a puzzle, because did they really not have time? A parallel discussion in Ketubot establishes that an army does "have time" to pursue women - in their lust. (the second mishnah) - a craftsman who is paid in wine that was used for libation -- he can ask for the actual money instead. Also, the order of operations in a Jewish merchant selling wine to an idolater - where the non-Jew must pay before handling the wine, or it's tantamount to the Jew selling libation wine. Plus, how do kinyanim - formal acts of acquisition - work for non-Jews?

If a Jew leaves wine with a non-Jew, unsupervised, can (or when can) the Jew drink that wine? The 12 case-stories on this daf address this question, several of which are discussed here. Also, when an army came to Nehardea and opened barrels of wine - is that wine permitted for the Jews to use? A comparable question arose in the land of Israel, but it's also qualitatively different, when the army is primarily Jewish. Plus, the case of a Jewish woman who gives the key to her wine shop to a non-Jewish woman, as an indicator of trust between them.

As long as a Jew supervises an idolater's presence with wine, there's no concern about the wine - even the supervisor's presence is intermittent. Plus, other cases where supervision makes a difference - unless that intermittent checking leaves enough time for the idolater to take the opportunity to handle the wine in a way that would prohibit it. With the notable issue becoming how long the idolater thinks he has before the supervisor returns. Also, how long IS that amount of time anyway? It depends on the material of the wine stopper -- and perhaps the ability to discern the unstoppering of the wine, even from below. Plus, a comment on the talmudic terms for a non-Jew, idolater, pagan, and so on, and the Jewish censorship of these texts.

More on the dispute about whether a mixture in which the forbidden component adds flavor that is detrimental - whether the mixture is permitted or prohibited? The search is on for a tannaitic source. Also, the case of a mouse who falls into a barrel of beer - is this a case of adding a detrimental flavor? There seems to be new factor in the mix, namely, that of it being repellent to people -- a matter that is disgusting.

On the principle of a forbidden item convey taste, and with it "forbiddenness," as manifest in hot split beans and vinegar vs. cold split beans and vinegar. Also, on adding a flavor that is to the detriment of the food - and whether that is then prohibited is a machloket. Plus, the biblical source, going back to Midian. Plus, the time-frame for food to go bad... or for a change in taste to automatically be enhanced.