Talking Talmud

First, why "libation wine" is a topic that draws so much attention. Wine cannot become "libation" wine until it goes into the cistern - is it fully processed then? That is a matter of dispute. Also, a 6-year-old child who was an outstanding scholar of this very tractate - Avodah Zarah. He was able to field serious questions about Jews and non-Jews working together to tread on grapes to make wine. Plus, long-term deliberations over concerns about wine, without real worrying about keeping people waiting for an answer...

Agrippas, the Roman general, asked Rabban Gamliel (paraphrase): Your God is a jealous God, but people are only jealous of those who are in real competition, so how can He be jealous of idols, which are fundamentally nothing? Plus, an example of a man who takes a second wife, and when that will make the first wife feel bad (in analogy to God vs. idolatry). Also, a challenge from people who are seemingly healed by idols. Plus, the perfect timing of suffering that can then confuse bystanders. Also, a focus on wine-making and taking the juice out of the grape - when does it become wine? (for halakhic concerns). Plus, draining the grapes and the implications as compared to juice flowing easily.

R. Dimi came from the land of Israel to Babylonia and taught how the land itself isn't rendered prohibited by virtue of people bowing down, but working/digging, etc. just might. The same for other items too. What about exchanging one thing for the thing that was worshipped? Still a problem, but the exchange of an exchange is a machloket. NOTE: A switch to discussion of libations and Aggadah in the mishnah (unusual, as we know). Does God really mind idolatry? He allows it, after all.... Also, a discussion between the philosophers in Rome (literally) and the sages on how God does not interfere in the running of the world, according to its natural order. But that means people do things against God's will and thrive nonetheless! (To wit, Rome).

Several mishnayot - beginning with nullifying an idol (on the bottom of the previous daf). Note that a non-Jew nullifies the idol, not a Jew, and only a non-Jew who owns at least part of the idol. Acting in excruciatingly, disrespectful ways before the idol will not nullify it. Also, the idols that were in the land when Joshua conquered it, and the tolerance for idolatrous practice that they Jews were willing to entertain during the sin of the Golden Calf. Also, an object of idolatry that was set aside during a time when the non-Jews would have had ample time to go get the master. (as compared to a peace time, when there's no way to know why the idol was shunted aside).

A dispute on the prohibition of the idol when it's owned by a Jew vs. owned by non-Jew (Rabbi Akiva vs. Rabbi Yishmael). Also, vessels that were used in the "Temple of Onias" -- "chonyo," outside of the Temple, once it had been built. [Note: Historically, the specific temple of Onias was a center of worship for Egyptian Judaism.] Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi forgot (!) the verse from which the external worship was prohibited -- and then he was reminded of it by Rabbi Yosi bar Shaul. Also, the specifics of the Temple - as presented in the tractate Middot - were key in terms of assessing what could and could not be used in the Temple - once they were used unlawfully, even unto the Temple's altar itself (in the time of the Hasmoneans). It was a problem of the stones not being smooth, and so they were hid - but why hide? Why not repurpose them? Plus, the gold of Jerusalem and the coins that were permitted for use.

An idolatry that is served by using a stick, or breaking the stick, in front of an idol, the stick is then prohibited from use. If the stick were thrown, the (Jewish) person is still liable for idolatry, but the stick would not be prohibited for use. The issue may well be whether the practice itself were in use in the service in the Temple, and then recast for idolatry. Which raises a question about the rocks that were thrown in service of Mercury. Also, 2 mishnayot! On the worship on "bamot," altars that were outside of the Mishkan/Tabernacle, which were not always permitted in the time of the Mishkan and prohibited once the Temple was established. Plus, foodstuffs that were prohibited by virtue of idolatrous practices - even, under some circumstances, water and salt. Also, more on the specific idolatrous practices, for example, of Mercury, Pe'or, etc. Also, are there circumstances where that which was given to idolatry could be used? Plus, concerns of payment to pagan priests.

More on the Mercury idol - including stones that were removed from the idol, and were then prohibited. Plus, other idolatries -- more than one that compares the practices of idolatry with the dead, where benefit is prohibited. But stones weren't the Jewish approach in worship, so perhaps it shouldn't be a problem of benefit. Plus, a beraita that was too difficult to unpack -- with the claim that they needed a carpenter, the son of a carpenter to resolve it. Also, another beraita that needed unpacking (about removing worms from a tree, or putting manure on certain places on the given tree. Certain questions and contradictions were not addressed satisfactorily for the sages. [NOTE: Unbeknownst to us, Yardaena's sound cut out - as you may detect easily...though she sounded loud and clear during recording]

Rabbi Yosi vs. the Rabbis - on a field that was fertilized by the manure of idolatry, or the like, and how that field can be planted, and what terms are required for that to happen. Plus, the potential ramifications of their same logic on leavened dough. When the problematic item that is prohibited from benefit, can it be redeemed for money, and then destroy those coins in the Dead Sea? The rabbis say that there's no financial redemption for idolatry. Also, several new mishnayot: One who takes wood from an asherah tree cannot get benefit from that wood, so what happens if that wood were used to heat a new oven? Or an old oven? Or bread? Or a garment that was woven with idolatrous items? What about revoking the idolatrous status? As long as thee non-Jew is clear that he's not treating the tree as an object of worship, then he is not. Plus, the Roman god of Mercury and the stone-throwing idolatrous worship thereof.

A daf of 4 mishnayot! (1) 3 different kinds of trees and how they might have been used for idolatrous purposes, and whether they are permitted afterwards. (2) What is an "asherah"? Different views. (3) On using the shade from the idolatrous tree. (4) Planting vegetables under the asherah tree - in the winter or summer, when is it permitted or prohibited?

Resh Lakish poses a question: What happens to a lulav - a palm branch - from a tree that has been worshipped? That is, in the event that it was planted to begin with in the name of idolatry. Does the use for a mitzvah make it more likely to be permitted? More likely to be forbidden? What about for regular use? Rav Dimi has a different understanding by which to answer Resh Lakish -- consider a tree that was planted for idolatry, and then that status was revoked. Now what, when it comes to mitzvot? Rav Pappa says there's no revocation (in other examples) when it comes to mitzvot. Also, new mishnayot! If one's home abuts the home of an idolater - divide the wall according to thickness. Note - the privacy of the bathroom. Plus, stones that were used to support idols vs. stones that had a covering that was connected to idolatry, and you removed any connection to idolatry....