On September 3, 2024, author and historian Jemar Tisby's new book The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Jemar for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies.

In this episode, I recreate my questions because of a recording glitch in the original. The recording on Jemar's end was excellent with brilliant content to match, so this is a quality and thought provoking episode. We cover much of the podcast material (e.g., Thomas Jefferson as an enslaver, David Barton's faux history, the need for accuracy in history), but he also ventures into some discussion of why racism still persists in the present-day and the definition of evangelical and the need to see that category in political terms as much as or more so than religious terms. Add in the smooth tunes, and these 26 minutes are well worth your time.   

Tisby, who is also Professor of History at the Simmons College of Kentucky appears in episodes 5, 6, 9, 11, and 13 of Telling Jefferson Lies. 

The opening music is "That Guy" provided by Dustin Blatnik and Robo Surgeon Fish, and the closer is also Dustin Blatnik and Lo-Fi Hymnal with "Ain't No Grave."

Tell a friend and thanks for listening. 

On July 2, 2024, Caleb Campbell's new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Caleb for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies. 

In this episode, I do say I want to smash Christian nationalists, but I hope it is clear that I am not serious, but instead I agree with Caleb's approach. There is often a difference between what we might feel like doing and we know we should do, and Caleb points us to our better angels. 

The opening music is something I lovingly call the Christian Nationalist Dance and the closer is Lo-Fi Hymnal's rendition of Were You There.  

Excerpts from my interview with Scott Coley, lecturer in philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. His new book Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right is out this week. In this bonus episode of the podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies, Scott discusses Christo-authoritarianism and the role of justice in overcoming self-interest. 

Music credits:
Seiche by Dustin Blatnik
Debris by Roman Candle
Night Walk by Warren Throckmorton

Often debates focus on Christian nationalism and the problems which come from blurring the line between church and state. In this episode, I end the Telling Jefferson Lies series with some thoughts and testimony from experts about what is good about separation.

Helping me close out the series are:

Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth College
Caleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZ
Michael Coulter, Professor, Political Science and Humanities, Grove City College
Greg Forster, theologian, Trinity International University
Charles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom Forum
Paul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City College
Joel McDurmon, Attorney, theologian
Glenn Sunshine, Colson Fellows

The closing song is Gemini by Robo Surgeon Fish. You can add it to your Spotify playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/track/6vqnUYyOrqLAWudh6Z5B5x?si=d76ccbb6edb94cfc

Theme Song: The World Awaits Us All, Roman Candle

Background Music: Jonathan Swaim, Robo Surgeon Fish, Warren Throckmorton

Telling Jefferson Lies was written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton

To see what's next, follow my blog/substack at warrenthrockmorton.substack.com

For more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In 2005, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked an important question for those who would erode separation of church and state: "Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly? "

I spend much of this episode affirming that we should not trade. Much of this series has been raising alarm about Christian nationalism and supporting separation of church and state. This episode assembles an all-star cast of experts in favor of a strong separation position. Joining me are:

Randall Balmer: John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College
Rob Boston: Editor, Church & State magazine
Charles Haynes: Senior fellow at the Freedom Forum 
Troy Jackson: Historian, civil rights activist, founder of Undivided
George Marsden: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Mark Noll: Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Jemar Tisby: Historian, author, civil right activist

Show Notes:

The closing song is Twisting History by Jonus Fair and the theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle. Background music is provided by Jonathan Swaim and yours truly. 

Thanks to Grove City College Social Work professor Jennifer Hollenberger for the opening affirmation!

Thanks to Rob Boston for the tip on the O'Connor Question. 

For more information about the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In this segment, I argue that Christian nationalism is bad for religion in general and bad for Christianity in the specific case. This segment sets up the finale which argues that separation of church and state is a benefit to the United States and should be strengthened. 

If you like experts and multiple voices, this is the segment for you. Here is the lineup:

Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth College
Paul Kemeny, Dean of Arts and Letters, Grove City College
Bob Smietana, Journalist, Religion News Service
Caleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert Springs Bible Church, Phoenix, AZ
George Marsden, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Mark Noll, Professor of history, emeritus, Notre Dame University
Katherine Stewart, Author, journalist
John Fea, Professor of history, Messiah University
Greg Thornbury, Author “Why Should The Devil Have All The Good Music?
Charles Haynes,  senior fellow for religious liberty at the Freedom Forum
Jonathan Larsen, journalist
Greg Forster, theologian, Trinity International University

SHOW NOTES:

The closing song is Old Time Religion by the Tuskegee Institute Singers.

The Telling Jefferson Lies theme song is The World Awaits Us All by Roman Candle

Background music provided by Jonathan Swaim, Dustin Blatnik, Warren Throckmorton

For more information, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.

In this short bonus episode, Dartmouth College professor Randall Balmer provides an introduction to reasons why he doesn't see the U.S. as a Christian nation. 

Dr. Balmer is the John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College. He has spoken at numerous colleges and universities, including where I met him, Grove City College. 

Balmer has published more than a dozen books, including Redeemer: The Life of Jimmy Carter, God in the White House: How Faith Shaped the Presidency from John F. Kennedy to George W. Bush, and Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right. His second book, Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Journey into the Evangelical Subculture in America, now in its fifth edition, was made into an award-winning, three-part documentary for PBS.

Two more regular segments are planned with the series concluding by the end of April.  I hope to post some additional bonus episodes after the final regular segment.

Closing song today is Ain't No Grave by LoFi Hymnal.
https://open.spotify.com/track/4Gi1aZgcQdXvBZECPyKXhG?si=b93eb41870914f66

Background music by Jonathan Swaim and Warren Throckmorton

Telling Jefferson Lies is hosted, written, and produced by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

In general terms, I believe Christian nationalism is bad history, bad politics, and bad religion. In prior episodes, I have concentrated on the bad history. In this segment and the next, I focus mainly on the bad politics. Around the world, religious nationalism is associated with state sponsored violence against citizens, use of force to take political control, erosion of the separation of church and state, degrading of democratic principles and attacks on minority rights. I believe Christian nationalism is also bad for Christianity which I will examine in the next episode.

Note: I did not mention that long time Fellowship leader Doug Coe passed away in 2017. I believe that explains some of the shifting within the Fellowship. Having said that, there always was an element within that group which didn't make a strong commitment to human rights.

Resources mentioned:

The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet.

The Family, Netflix documentary, by Jeff Sharlet.

Charismatic Revival Fury, podcast by Matthew Taylor, produced by Brad Onishi

Expert guests this segment: Dartmouth College historian and author Randall Balmer, Communications director at Americans United for the Separation of Church and State Rob Boston,  Louisville pastor and social worker Joel Bowman, Mount St Mary's University philosophy instructor Scott Coley, Grove City College social work associate professor Jennifer Hollenberger, historian Troy Jackson, journalist Jonathan Larsen, author and journalist Katherine Stewart, religion scholar with the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor, and historian and author Jemar Tisby. 

SHOW NOTES:

Telling Jefferson Lies is written, produced, and hosted by Warren Throckmorton. For more information about the podcast or the book Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com. 

Today’s closing song is Debris by Roman Candle. Telling Jefferson Lies Theme song is The World Awaits Us All also by Roman Candle. See the show notes for more credits. Just two more episodes to go. Please like the podcast and spread the word on social media. Thanks for listening. 

As promised, here is the completion of my examination of David Barton's whitewashing of Thomas Jefferson. In our book Getting Jefferson Right: Fact-Checking Claims About Thomas Jefferson, Michael Coulter and I assume the position held by most scholars and the Thomas Jefferson Foundation when it comes to the paternity of Sally Hemings children, i.e., Thomas Jefferson was their father.

In The Jefferson Lies, David Barton deceives readers about what Madison Hemings said about his mother. Here is what Barton said Hemings told a Pike County (OH) newspaper in 1873.

"The other major oral tradition challenging Jefferson’s sexual morality came from Sally Hemings’ son Madison (the fourth Hemings child, born in 1805). In an article published in an Ohio newspaper in 1873, Madison Hemings claimed that in France “my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called back home she was enceinte [pregnant] by him” with Thomas Woodson."

Here is what Madison Hemings actually had published in that newspaper:

"But during that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called home she was enciente by him. He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised her extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years. In consequence of his promises, on which she implicitly relied, she returned with him to Virginia. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father. It lived but a short time. She gave birth to four others, and Jefferson was the father of all of them. Their names were Beverly, Harriet, Madison (myself), and Eston—three sons and one daughter. We all became free agreeably to the treaty entered into by our parents before we were born. We all married and have raised families."

Hemings did not mention Woodson because he was irrelevant. Sally Hemings first child lived but "a short time." Barton didn't tell his readers that part of the story.

The Monticello website on Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/

Research Report: https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/research-report-on-jefferson-and-hemings/

SHOW NOTES:

For more information about Getting Jefferson Right, go to gettingjeffersonright.com.  

The closing song is Were You There by LoFi Hymnal. https://open.spotify.com/track/19oJxhr6efnpU7LVBzUQz2?si=c94873948db84fbd

Background music by Jonathan Swaim, Roman Candle, and Warren Throckmorton

The series will conclude during the final week of April with an episode on the virtues of the separation of church and state.  Watch for additional episodes between now and then.  If you like the pod, leave a positive review. 

This supplements episode 10, Still Searching for Christian America, Part Two. You can listen to this first, but I definitely encourage you to go back and catch up if you do.

Everybody in Christian nationalism is talking about the seven mountains message. The message is at the root of much violent rhetoric coming from Christian nationalists but according to one of the key players in the movement, the origin story is fake.

Helping me out in this bonus episode is Senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies Matthew Taylor; English prof at University of North Georgia Matthew Boedy, and attorney and theologian Joel McDurmon.

From the episode:

"Remember, all of this rhetoric has been directly inspired by a teaching that is based on a false story. Let’s keep it real, God did not show Loren Cunningham, Lance Wallnau, Mike Crotts, Johnny Enlow or anyone that the Christian’s mission in this world is to take the government by stealth or by force. 

He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

SHOW NOTES

Hosted, written and produced by Warren Throckmorton

Closing song is Endless Runner by the amazing Robo Surgeon Fish.
https://open.spotify.com/track/5IyxikZ3PJYyFWhdoLkbCf?si=c7409ab3f4be4c6c

Telling Jefferson Lies Playlist with many of the songs featured in the series:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2yMPnORBMXNa0JuJP2u5uo?si=3e6463d8fb554cac

Matthew Taylor's podcast Charismatic Revival Fury:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/charismatic-revival-fury-the-new-apostolic-reformation/id1738709631

Many of the clips for the series come from Right Wing Watch, especially those documenting the violent rhetoric of Christian nationalist leaders.  I encourage you to follow them on social media.