Guest: Bo Watson & Shannon Shuskey (In the Zone Mental Training, Authors In the Zone Secrets)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 371
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join us as we explore the intricate dance between the mind and the golf swing with mental training experts Bo Watson and Shannon Shuskey of In the Zone Mental Training. Together, we unravel the significant impact of mental coaching in conjunction with golf instruction. Hear about Bo’s personal struggles with golf and the pivotal role Shannon’s expertise played in not just refining his game, but transforming the way he—and any golfer—can harness the power of visualization. From the tee box to the final putt, this conversation is a treasure trove for those looking to elevate their mental game and savor the joy of golf like never before.

Listen in as we discuss the transformative power of mindset in sports performance. Shannon opens up about his journey from anxiety-ridden to confident, culminating in becoming a national champion speed skater, and how that mental shift can be equally effective on the golf course. Skepticism meets evidence when Bo applies a custom mental trigger, leading to astonishing improvements in his game after a two-year break. This dialogue will leave you pondering the potential for mental techniques to revolutionize sports and how a single change in perception can be a game-changer.

We round out our conversation with an insightful look into mental imagery’s role in sports performance and technique, the concept of ‘caveman golf’ for achieving flow, and the psychological intricacies unique to golf. Discover how legends like Tiger Woods and Sam Snead leverage mental imagery to perform under pressure and how these techniques can empower you to reset mentally on the course. As Bo and Shannon share their book insights and their passion for the game, this episode is not just a lesson in golf—it’s an invitation to transform how you approach every shot, mentally and emotionally.

Bo is the Co-Founder of In The Zone Mental Training and Co-Author of the new book called In The Zone Secrets. He has been a host of 2 Consistent Golf Summits and the Road2TheTour Golf Summit, which collectively drew over 20,000 registered attendees. These Summits featured some of the world’s best coaches such as Sean Foley, James Sieckmann, David Orr, Mark Broadie, Scott Fawcett, Nick Clearwater, Dr. Kwon, Andrew Rice, and many others. The primary purpose behind these summits was to help golfers shortcut their path to consistent golf!

Shannon was the Operations Manager of the largest Golds Gym on East Coast and Mental Performance Mastery Coach for 20 years, Sports Performance Specialist for 30 years, specifically working in the sport of speed skating, coaching hundreds of high level athletes in including several Olympic qualifiers and medalists. It was Shannon’s mental training techniques that helped his athletes achieve such high levels that intrigued Bo to try them on himself for golf. The success of this “experiment” led to the partnership that is now the helping golfers all over the world shoot their lowest scores ever.

Bo and Shannon’s mission is to help 100,000 golfers shoot their new lifetime low rounds. They currently work with Tour Players, College Golfers, and the everyday golfer who wants to play their best golf yet!

(00:03) The Mental Edge

Mental coaching and visualization can enhance golf performance and enjoyment, discussed by In the Zone Mental Training.

(11:06) Triggering Performance Excellence

Transformational journey in sports performance, from anxiety to confidence, using custom triggers to improve without practice.

(21:45) Mental Imagery in Sports Performance

Nature’s mental imagery in sports includes basic visual and kinesthetic techniques for skill acquisition and muscle memory.

(29:02) The Power of Caveman Golf

Nature’s “caveman golf” focuses on target and flow, contrasting with pursuit of perfect swing. Psychological aspects and influence of Alex Morrison also discussed.

(36:26) Mental Imagery in Golf Techniques

Exploring mental techniques of top golfers like Tiger Woods, importance of protein for athletes, and power of positive mindset in golf.

(47:14) Mental Imagery and Performance Enhancement

Mental approaches in golf, interest-curiosity mindset, anxiety and reward value, “ball reset” technique, positive self-talk and imagery, Sam Snead’s success.

(59:00) Golf Book and Course Recommendations

Bo and Shannon share insights from their book, discuss impactful books and dream golf foursomes, and recommend inspiring social media accounts.

Instagram

Website: IntheZonementalTraining.com

Book: InthezoneSecrets.com

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To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

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18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
the 18STRONG podcast, episode number 371, with bo watson and shannon Shushkey of in the zone mental training. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode we have Bo Watson and Shannon Shushkey, the creators of the In the Zone mental training and the authors of the recent book In the Zone Secrets. And today’s episode is awesome because we’ve got the mental side, we’ve got the golf side. Bo’s background is in golf instruction and is a high level golf coach and went through a period of time where he was a little frustrated with the game, ended up actually leaving the industry. But when he met Shannon Shushkey, who is a mental game coach, performance coach, but really his background is in speed skating and working with speed skaters, but learned how to teach them and work with them on getting in the zone, when the two paths crossed, they started to figure out that this could be a game changer for the game of golf. So in this episode we go deep into visualization and what it looks like to really visualize to help your performance on the golf course, what it looks like when you step on the tee box and what that mental rehearsal and work really should look like and ends up looking like if you’re going to shoot lower scores. We also talk about how you can accelerate swing changes. Often we hear that when you’re working on the mental game, should you be looking at the shot or should you be looking at what your body’s doing? So we talk about how working on your mental game and your visualization can actually help accelerate your swing changes and how you can drop your scores without physical practice. So we’re going to go into depth on controlling the images that you see, controlling your emotions out on the course and ultimately enjoying the game even more. You’re going to really enjoy this episode with Bo and Shannon.

Our partners over at Link Soul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview. Brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview Bo Watson, shannon.

0:02:51 – Bo Watson
Shushkey, welcome to the 18STRONG Podcast.

0:02:54 – Shannon Shuskey
Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is exciting.

0:02:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Absolutely. This is going to be an exciting one for me and our 18STRONG crew. I know, bo, I kind of heard of you guys through your connection with Carl Morris and being on Carl’s show and Carl’s one of our favorites over here at 18STRONG and you guys did a great episode with him that I’m also going to encourage everybody to listen to and we’ll put that in the show notes. So I know that just by listening to that episode going through your book, the philosophies are so aligned with what we believe here at 18STRONG, just as far as the intention of the game is really for us to really enjoy it. And I think that you know, obviously by playing better you enjoy it more. But you guys go so much into the idea that you know putting this intention into playing better allows you to really enjoy the game more. And it’s about even bigger things than the game too.

So first of all I just want to kind of preface that to our audience that they’re in for quite a ride here with you guys. I would love to start out with and, bo, I’ll kind of throw this at you I’d love for you to start out with a little bit of the background of how you two met because I think the story of your connection and where you were mentally in your career and everything, bo, is really crucial to the story. And then how Shannon came in.

0:04:10 – Bo Watson
Yeah, it’s always a funny story to tell, because where I was is where I think a lot of people are kind of in their game right now or have been at some point in their golfing journey and so kind of give a little bit of a context behind that. In 2016, I actually stepped away from the game Like I closed down my golf school. I was a very successful golf coach up to that point. I’ve been blessed to learn over some of the best in the game. You know the who’s who, so to speak, and mainly that’s because of my relationship with David, or those of you of you that aren’t familiar with David Orr. David’s considered the best putting coach in the world. Him and Phil Kenyon are kind of battling neck and neck for that title. But the thing is, because of that relationship, because I was at school at Campbell and I fell in love with teaching a game, I left school, opened my own golf school and I’m having a lot of success. But the problem was, as a coach, I’m a type, a type personality. Every person that comes and sees me I want to help and, you know, kind of give you some background on our track record. We were averaging 4.7 shots dropped across handicaps, uh, for every student that we worked with, on average in about a six month time span. So we were doing a little bit better than the industry average at the time. You know, golf Tech prides themselves on seven strokes in a year. We’re doing a little bit better than them. So I kind of like to say that and rub that a little bit in the Clearwater space a little bit. But the thing is, at the end of the day I still had, you know, a few students coming to me and I couldn’t help them. And the ones that I couldn’t help, jeff, were the ones that were like hey, bo, why is it that I always start terribly on the front side but then I play amazing on the back? And it could be vice versa. I mean it could be. You know, they play really well, shoot like 36, 37, 35 on the front, and then they go to the backside and shoot 46, 48. And you know, some of them would have this trouble of getting to this one hole and it’s a negative habit loop and that’s like no matter what they do, they always hit in the water. And it was those kind of students I didn’t have an answer for and I’ll tell you.

It came to a head in september 2016. I’ll never forget it. It’s september, it’s late in the evening, he’s my last lesson of the night and we we basically had an honest conversation where I said you know what? I can’t help you and the the interesting thing about this one particular student was that, on paper, strokes gain data. When we go out and be playing lessons together, we go out and play a few holes, the data is showing that he should be in the 70s and even on top of that when we do lessons and we’re working on his game ball striking wise, this guy should be a low, single digit handicapper. But the issue was, when you go and play in tournaments, it would be high 80s, low 90s every time he goes out and plays and I, finally, I just I don’t have an answer and we decided to part ways.

I got fired that evening and, uh, that was like the final straw for me because it finally came to head, where I was so frustrated, not only not being able to help my students, but the biggest reason was because, personally, as a player, I still had yet to overcome these obstacles in my own game, and then I, when I left that evening, I shut down the golf school. I started putting out resumes and I started applying to different jobs, and then I left the game of golf for good and had no intention of ever coming back into the game until two years later. I meet this guy, shannon Shushkey, at a dinner one night. And then, you know, I got to say and be honest, my game changed, but then my life also changed as a result of it.

0:07:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that’s why I’m now here and loving what I do on a daily basis. So, Shannon, if you could kind of pick up where you met Bo.

0:08:02 – Shannon Shuskey
I know you guys went out to dinner, I believe, and it had nothing to do with golf, right? No, absolutely. I was over the ministry team at our church and I was leading prayer class and he was wanting to be on the ministry team and stuff like that, and so I wanted to go out just to get to know him. And what’s crazy is you can’t make this up he was working at a place where I just quit, probably about two years prior to that or a year prior to that, and so I was like, okay, this is first and foremost. That’s uncanny, you know, but you can’t make up the story of how we met and because, once we got there and at the restaurant we were eating and with how, everything, we didn’t even get to know each other. I was sharing with him the things that I’ve experienced when it comes to speed skating and being able to trigger my body to get in the zone on demand at the flip of the switch, and he was like there’s no way. And I was explaining to him where I was in my speed skating, how it literally transformed me as a competitor.

Um, for example, what happened with me was, um, my background. I played soccer, played semi-pro, so I was pretty fast with shoes on, but then you put skates on. What in the world was going on? It’s a different monster that was out there, and I was getting last off the starting line, um, every single time. Now, here’s the thing the team that I skated for we had 22 national champions in the prospective age group, so it was kind of like me going out against a who’s who I was like a 30-year-old, you know, going against these kids, however, and so I’m getting last off the starting line in practice, not just in practice, but at meets and everything like that.

But I knew that there was a mental disconnect, because whenever we were playing around and we’d have our shoes on or whatnot and we would race, I would beat them hands down, hands down. So I knew it’s just like in golf. You know how often um, you did, does your listeners and everybody’s listening this podcast, for example. You know you can play lights out on the golf range, but yeah, when it comes time to any kind of pressured situation or just going out to the golf course, the change in atmosphere, the environment and stuff like that, and it’s like, okay, where did my game go? That’s what was going on with me and so I was getting mental reps in and literally after I figured out with this concept and this system that I developed, literally within one month I started beating. I would say I was probably getting about halfway through off the starting line and then, within a little over a month, I was winning every single start. And then a month and a half I was winning every start, not just practice, but at meets.

And then there was a huge shift, even like literally my I was not nervous before any race. That changed. I was going in more confident and as a result of that, on top of that and it was like, okay, a name is, is just a name. But when I stepped up to the stop of mel, whether this is true or not, a name is just a name but mentally, going up to the starting line, I knew that I was the one to beat. Now, whether that was true or not, I mean I would race world champions knowing that I wasn’t, you know, on the same level as them, but mentally, a whole shift.

And so I’m sharing with Bo on this system I literally the whole, I mean probably an hour and a half and I’m sharing with him how to trigger his body and stuff like that.

Now his reaction was not what I thought was going to happen, because he was laughing at me. He was like there’s no way, you can’t do this, not for the game of golf. And then he’s laughing. He’s like I’m going to go out and I’m going to prove you wrong, right? And so then I was like, well, I pulled out my phone and I started showing him a few things. But now I’m going to transition. I went, you know, uh oh and by the way, not just, not just me when it starts either becoming national champion and breaking the record in speed skating, and so that was a huge game ship game changer for me. But then I’ll let uh both kind of finish the story on what happened the rest of that night and then the next two months yeah, I’ll see what everybody is is probably thinking right now at this point, and that is this is totally full of crap.

0:12:52 – Bo Watson
and that’s what I said to shannon that night when he said, you know, I wasn’t able to get my speed skaters or trick their bodies in the zone down. To get some context for you guys, he had coached 142 national champions, eight world champions, two Olympic medalists. Now that’s a hall of fame resume. And that’s what prompted me to be like well, that’s amazing, like what did you do? And then that’s when he dropped the bomb on me, so to speak, and he said I was able to get my speed skater stricter by his end his own and I I literally laughed, and I still laugh because I feel like there is absolutely no way this could be true. Because I said look, from my own experience, you know, when I struggled in high school and when I started, you know doing everything under the sun like getting, you know, training days, reading all the books and living on Golf Channel Academy Live and I’m trying to do everything I can to get the edge in my own swing. You know, again, kind of falling into the trap of the search for the perfect swing and unfortunately that made me worse and then, as a result, it sidetracked me to a point where I thought everything was mental. So I read all the mental game books out there and you name it, I read it and I read those outside of the game of golf. And I said, shannon, you realize that sports psychologists and these authors have all said what the zone looks like, but nobody has ever found a step-by-step process on how to get there. And you’re telling me that you figured that process out. And he said yes, and I said I still don’t believe you.

And it was at that point when Shannon said earlier, he pulled out his phone and he starts like going through and he’s finding these text messages of all of his world champions, the Olympic medalist that he coached and these other national record holders, and they’re all saying the same thing Jeff, custom trigger, custom trigger, custom trigger. And I said you know, okay, this may work for speed skating, but I said, jeff, it’s not going to work for golf. I said there’s no way. And he kind of pushed me a little bit further and then he walked me through an exercise and we can get through that in a second. But it really opened my eyes and I said, all right, this may work.

And I said, Shannon, if this does work, this is going to change a game of golf overnight. And I said you know what? I’m the best prime candidate that could prove this, if it does work for golf. And I said here’s why. I said I haven’t touched a club in two years, I haven’t played around in two years and nor do I even really have a desire, but this is intriguing enough to where I will come out and go and play and see if this thing actually works or not.

And I said here’s what I’m gonna do. I’ll take what you’re gonna teach me. I’m not gonna practice. I’m not even go to range, I’m only gonna go straight to the first tee. I might hit a few pots on the day of the time I’m playing, and that’s it. That’s what I. Eight rounds in the second half of 2018. I go six out of the eight rounds under par. I go from an index before the 2.4 plus 1.7 within that same time frame, and the rest is history. We’ve done some amazing things ever since, but yeah, that’s kind of a quick run around how we came together.

0:15:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean it’s such an incredible story and I love hearing it again. I mean it’s such an incredible story and I love hearing it again, and just like I can only picture you sitting at that dinner table, you know, just kind of like laughing, like, yeah, okay, this guy, you know, and then he starts rattling off. You know like who he’s worked with and you start to see those, and then it’s kind of like, okay, let’s. But you were saying that you thought it’d be different from golf, because golf is so different from other sports, right? And so, shannon, first I want to ask you it sounds like you first kind of figured this out for yourself and started to implement it into your own practice speed skating, into your own endeavors athletically, then started to teach it what, like where did the shift come from? Or what is that missing ingredient that so many other coaches have not been able to put their finger on, that you were able to just kind of inherently figure out for yourself.

0:16:35 – Shannon Shuskey
So what’s interesting is? It’s funny because this is even mind blowing to me, because all the books that I read up until that point I was doing it plain wrong than what they were saying. But it actually goes down to when Psychology 101 actually took that in college and if anybody’s ever taken that as an elective or as a psychologist, we’ve worked with doctors and psychologists and stuff like that too. They’ve heard of Pavlov’s dogs and which is so in the, in the study. With Pavlov’s dogs there would be a light or a buzzer, a sound or anything like that, and then what would happen is food would drop down for the dog to eat and then what happened is they noticed two different things in classical conditioning. They noticed the behavior of the dog, but then also salivating. We hear a lot about the salivation part of it, but we don’t really necessarily talk about about the behavior, and everybody has a dog can do this.

You, as soon as you get food out, what’s going on? The dog starts jumping around, it starts doing in circles and stuff like that. Right, that’s the behavior, but also the salivation that was going on with the dog. The light would come, the food, and then what happens is a week later they were come the food. And then what happens is, a week later they were training the dog. So then what happens is two couple weeks later, or a short term, spin came they. They noticed that when the trigger went, that the light or the buzzer went off, and then that would not drop food, the dog would. Behavior would be the same thing, but also the dog would be salivating.

And see, that’s what I was doing. I was figuring out okay, I’m going to do a trigger to get my body there, but then I’m also going to put the pieces of the puzzle together using kinesthetic mineral imagery. And where, at the time, I didn’t know anything about kinesthetic mineral imagery, it just so happened that the definition of it actually is exactly what I was doing, right, um? And so the important thing is like, when you’re doing mental imagery, um, you have to have all your five senses activated, I mean at a high level. You know, you want to be attention to detail, like, for example, if the wind is blowing, can you feel the wind? You know, and not just that, you know the sights. What are you seeing? Can you see the dimples in the in the ball? Can you hear? You know when you swing your club, you know, going to hit it, uh, and stuff like that.

So then I was that’s what I was doing with my mental imagery was I was making it so real, getting all five senses, uh, involved. But however um, I like to use it this way when it comes to mental imagery, there’s actually seven senses and getting seven senses involved. The reason why I say that is because, number one, you got to have limb movement, your arms, your body, body movement going into it. You got to feel it, you got to do it and, matter of fact, the more that you do it, matter of fact, there’s been numerous studies when people have been hooked up with electrodes and EMGs and stuff like that. And when you’re doing mental imagery, the ones that are making it real, they actually their muscles are twitching, they’re firing and stuff like that.

But then also that the seventh sense is adding emotion to it, because your emotion can change, how focused you get, how dialed in that you can get, for example, making the target feel like a magnet pulling you to it. You know what I’m saying when it’s almost like okay, even though aim small, miss small, but it seems like that target is huge because you’re just so dialed and locked into it, and so that’s what I was doing. I was getting those three pieces, the trigger with the emotion and the mental imagery in there. So then, when it came time for me to perform, I was doing it. So that’s what I was sharing with Bo that night. But I was going step by step by step on how to do it, and so that was basically a long answer to your question there.

0:20:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, that’s great, and I want to get as much as we can out of this short time that we have together so we can give some people some actionable steps. And then obviously you know we can’t put a whole book in an episode, so then they’ll want to go get the book and, you know, dissect every single piece. But you talk about kinesthetic mental imagery and psychoneuromuscular imagery, psychoneuromuscular training, and I want to kind of break those down a little bit. But what’s the difference between kinesthetic mental imagery and mental imagery? You guys make a distinction in the book, because I think that most of us hear about visualization and, like you just said, we picture what we’re trying to do and I think we’ve all tried this as golfers. But you guys go into so much more detail about those kind of things. But can you differentiate really between kinesthetic and mental? Is that simply bringing in the emotion and the movement, adding those pieces?

0:21:44 – Bo Watson
100%. Mental imagery is in its most basic form. It’s just simply just seeing things Like there’s no emotion that’s attached to it. It’s just, I would say, visualization 101, kind of like what most people are doing on a very basic level that they’ve been taught. I’m a big fan of Vision 54, what Len and Pete have done, and so when the people are standing back in a think visualization box, I think the simplest way to describe what mental imagery versus kinesthetic mental imagery is is.

Mental imagery is you’re just simply just close your eyes and you’re just seeing the shot, like there’s nothing else that’s really attached to it. Kinesthetic mental imagery is where you’re taking it to a totally different level, meaning you’re now putting in all the awareness what you’re hearing, what you’re seeing. Maybe you can even see yourself like tasting like Gatorade, or if you’re drinking a beer in the round and you’re just walking up to the tee box, you’re hearing your playing partners over to the side. You know you’re also more engaged with the detail, like what Shannon just shared. But the other piece of this is again what Shannon just shared when moving. So you’re actually physically feeling the movements as you’re doing it and then, last but not least, the emotion that’s attached to it. And so when you look at the two types and then you look at all the studies there have been numerous studies and we have a lot of those referenced in our book at the end of the book but I guess it’s really fascinating when you see what kinesthetic mental injury is doing for people when it comes to like rehab, when it comes to, you know, even strength gains. You know there have been numerous studies out there where people are just doing uh, shannon can reference that in a second but like there are numerous studies where people just do tennis, study mental injury of them doing an exercise or workout and yet they’re still seeing amazing strength gains versus just doing it physically only and so like when you do the combination of two, I mean it’s like a massive, like knockout punch, so to speak, and so you can really accelerate things. And this is true even when it comes to the swing and how you want to improve your swing and you want to do a swing change. This is how you would do it and you can accelerate in a shorter time span. But I will say this about kinesthetic mental injury because shannon kind of alluded to it earlier.

One of the best early examples was in 1980. The author of the study was Suinn S-U-I-N-N. You can go look this up. And what was so cool about the study is they studied an Olympic downhill skier and what they did was they had him actually physically go out and do the actual training of the course, where he was running down the slopes and everything, and they had his muscles hooked up and so they’re measuring off the ekg I think that’s what it’s called and they’re seeing the muscle activity. But then they sat him down and he is physically sitting completely still and they’re having him go through the course in his mind and he’s engaging all the sensors and what was fascinating is that his muscles were actually firing at a even higher level than when he was doing it physically well so that was one of the big I guess you would say um hallmark studies, that kind of like got a lot of other people on board and so this has been a big, heavily researched topic over the last like 40 years, uh, since that one study came out.

It has been really fascinating. People go down a rabbit hole really quick when you get on the kinesthetic mental imagery.

0:25:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So, shannon, when you’re talking about the kinesthetic and feeling the limbs moving, you’re not actually standing up and like practicing a swing. You’re literally just trying to tap into the feelings that you would have when you’re out there. Is that correct? To tap into the feelings that you would have when you’re out there Is that correct?

0:25:25 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, absolutely.

However, what we want to do is because, for example, a beginner, when it comes to doing mental imagery, what we would have them do is physically do a swing and then do mental imagery of that swing and go back and forth. So then that way you’re getting the feeling of it dialed in right, because it’s fresh on your mind. You know, we always say when you’re going out, you know, when you’re on the golf course, you’re doing your swing twice, you’re playing the round at least twice. It’s sometimes three times or four times, not just once, because mentally you’re rehearsing it over different, different shots over and over again in your head. And so that’s one of the things that we’re doing when it comes to that like and and then you. Then there’s levels of mental imagery that we actually talk about in the book. We call them five levels of mental imagery, and that’s the basic level, and the elementary, preschool level is all right. Let’s get the feeling dialed in, and that’s how you get it done. Like you can go out to the range, for example, get your balls there, go through your pre-shot routine, hit the ball and then do mental imagery of what that felt like, and then just keep alternating back and forth and then do more mental imagery going in there. So then you’re actually feeling it. So then, but then when you get your mental reps away from the course, that’s where all your gains are.

A lot of people think that their gains are on the golf course. No, that’s just, that’s like taking your test right. You’re getting everything away from the golf course before you even get there. Because if you wait till you get there, it’s too late. Your body’s going to react to what you’re, what you’re, what we’re saying here for. So you got to get your reps away from the course.

It’s just like you know, going to the gym, you know somebody is trying to lose weight, they go to the gym, you know, to the gym, you know somebody’s trying to lose weight. They go to the gym, you know. And then they come home and then they look at uh, look in the mirror. They’re like, well, nothing, nothing happened, I’m done. No, that’s not how it works, right, you have to give your body time to start reacting to it by going to your mental gym and getting those reps in and getting the feeling of that swing. Um, not just that, because here’s the thing your driver’s gonna feel a lot different than your putter. So you gotta get them all dialed in, not just one, and it takes some work, don’t get me wrong. But here’s the thing is it hard work? Absolutely not. It’s actually pretty easy. You know you’re not going out and breaking sweat and suffering when you’re doing it, it’s just, it’s easy work, but you just got to get the work done.

0:28:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you mentioned there’s different levels of this and obviously we start at the beginning level and most people have tried to go and visualize, right, I think we’ve all been there and I would say that one of the big dilemmas that people come into is well, am I visualizing this shot or am I visualizing internally what my body’s trying to do? And I know we’ve had, you know, carl and Gary on the show and they talk a lot about well, does the shot create the swing? Does the swing create the shot? Is it internal focus? Is it external focus? Bo, I’m going to leave this one to you. How do we differentiate where that focus is? Is it both? Is one helping to foster the other? And what direction do you give people when they’re kind of stuck between, I don’t know, am I working on me or am I working on what that shot looks like?

0:28:55 – Bo Watson
Yeah, it’s a fantastic question and it really depends on where the player is and their journey and where they’re at in the system. So, like one thing that we always want to get a player to is ultimately what we call caveman golf. We know our best performances are going to come from caveman golf. So what does that look like? It’s C target, c ball, hit ball. That would be basically a caveman’s approach to playing golf at a high level. And you know what’s funny Every time I have a conversation with a golfer in our community, you know the common denominator I always hear from every single one of them when they tell me like their best round was, or their lifetime low ground.

The common denominator across every single one of them was I was in a zone, I was in a close state. Okay, let’s go down a little bit deeper. Did you have swing thoughts throughout the round? You know what every single one of them said no, I did not. And then I go and press a little bit deeper. I’ll say what was your main focus, my target? And that’s why, like, one of the most important things that people can write down and always remember is where your attention goes energy flows. And there are so many studies out there in multiple different sports that have backed up this idea that even though your technique could be off, for an example, but if you intuitively know that this is your target, your body will compensate in a way to get a ball, whatever sport it is, from point a to point b, and I mean they’ve done it in so many different studies and so many different sports. But it’s true for golf too, which is why, like, yes, working in a swing is important. You’ll never hear me say that technique is not important. It is um. But at the same time, there’s got to be a healthy balance and unfortunately and I think this is what will help a lot of people listening to us and give me a little bit more context behind why what we’re teaching is so powerful is because, unfortunately, over the last 50, 60 years, this game has gotten this unhealthy pursuit of the search for the perfect swing, and that’s not the answer.

You will never hear a major champion in a press conference after they just won a major championship, come back and say you know, today I won because I was able to hit my P3 position extremely well and then I was able to get my wrist flexion at 22 degrees at the moment of contact. And then I had my weight pressure, you know, with ground reaction forces and getting everything to move back into my left heel, and that’s where I had to snap and get the left lead leg. No, you never hear a major champion say that. What do they say? They said I was really dialed in, I could see my shot clearly today. And what do they say? They said I was really dialed in, I could see my shot clearly today, and it’s all those things. Even when you look at basketball, for example, you’ll never hear you know, kobe Bryant a late Kobe say yeah, I was, uh, I was able to get my knees bent at 24 degrees at the moment of my release and then I felt my pressure go back to my right heel when I actually landed and I knew that was my way of making shots. No, it’s always like I saw the shot and anybody that’s ever shot basketball, you know that if you think about mechanics, you’ll be looking at the backboard or much less at the rim at all, but when you shoot your best, it’s always because you had a clear vision of the arc, of the approach, of the ball going into the hoop and where you want it to go in at a certain Unfortunately.

Yes, it is the hardest sport in the world, which is why I had to argue with Shannon early on when we were at dinner that night and why I said this couldn’t work. But what’s fascinating is over the last two years I’ve been on a lot of research and so to kind of give context to everything we’re doing, for those of you that are very scientific-minded and still skeptical, this is a system that is a blend of classical conditioning and what’s called operant conditioning. So it is psych mesmerizing. It is blending the custom trigger with the CPR kinesthetic, mental imagery. There you go. Those are pieces.

But I want to go back to why this game has gotten away from its roots when you look at the best players in the game Sam Snead, tiger Woods, phil Mickelson, ben Hogan and then Jack Nicklaus and Mickey Wright on the LPGA Tour side of things. But I want to just focus on these four players just for a second. Sam Snead, ben Hogan they both shared the same coach. Who was that coach? Henry Pickard, jack Nicklaus first childhood coach, his name was Jack Rowe. Now Mickey Wright worked with a coach named Harry Pressler. Those were the three coaches Harry Pressler, henry Picker, jack Routt, who was all three of their coaches’ mentor. It was nameless Alex Morrison.

Now who is this Alex Morrison guy? When you do research you find out this Alex Morrison guy was actually way ahead of his time and, honestly, we hope our work is actually paying a tribute to him, because he was actually the godfather of the one that wrote the book in 1940 called Better Golf Without Practice and, if I’m not mistaken, harvey Pinnock said Alex Morrison was one of the absolute best swings he’d ever seen in person. And that’s amazing when you consider all the people that he’s been around right Now. Here’s the thing about Alex Morrison. In that book, better Golf Without Practice, there was a comedian. He tells the story of a comedian, lou Lohr, and this guy could not break 90 to save his life. So everybody that’s listening, you’re struggling to break 100, you’re struggling to break 90. Well, you may want to pay attention to this part right here, because Lou Lohr tried everything under the sun, could not break 90 to save his life. And finally comes Alex Morrison and he said hey, I need help.

What does Alex do? The total opposite of what everybody else does in this game. He didn’t go get training aids, he didn’t go and do full. You know so many hours of physical practice and do lessons physically on the range. Now what does Alex do? He sets them down in a chair and over the next two weeks all they do is basically kinesthetic mental imagery of him rehearsing what out of the system is called the five Morrison swing keys. That’s all they did, plus while actually playing around in his mind. Now what’s interesting is Lou Lord goes out his first round back and he actually shoots 87. Now here’s what’s crazy about that. Let’s go back to Sam Snead, those of you that are Bob Rotello fans, and Jeff. I don’t know if you’ve read Bob Rotello books. Did you ever read the Golfer’s Mind, that particular book?

0:35:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I don’t know if I read that one. I read Golf is Not a Game of Perfect and a couple of the other ones. Yeah.

0:35:14 – Bo Watson
Yeah. So in the Golfer’s’s mind book, in chapter two. This is so fascinating to me. Bob Rotella is giving a seminar that can make or break his career and he details it pretty, pretty bluntly, so to speak, because he said if Sam Snead gets up and says this guy’s a crook, you shouldn’t listen to him. Bob Rotello’s career would have ended right then and there in the game of golf. That’s what was on the line for him. Now he is nervous because Sam Snead does stand up after he gives his talk, but what comes out of Sam’s mouth was actually shocking to everybody in the room. Sam says we need to listen to this young man because he has a lot of truth of what he just shared, and what was interesting is what sam shares.

Next he said the reason why I was so successful in my career was because the night before I would play my rounds, I would visualize it and do mental imagery of what I would see, my perfect shots. For the next day’s round, he said, I’d fall asleep between like hole 10 and 14, wake up next day, feel, go through my normal routine and I go and play a great round. And what’s so crazy about that is that he’s tied with Tiger with the all-time PGA Tour wins. Now, why did I say Tiger? Tiger won an early 2000s clinic and it’s also in his book.

Tiger shared something that was really, really interesting and it’s the key to why he has made some of the most iconic putts on Sunday final round in majors and some of these events that he’s won over the course of his career. He said on the outside it looks like I’m calm and collected, but on the inside I’m extremely nervous, like when the pressure’s on. Now we would think that would be totally, you know, untrue, right? But this is what Tiger said. And he said when I’m nervous, when I’m going through these uh putts, this is what I do, and he’s walking everybody through it.

And he said when I’m standing to the side of the ball, I’ll look, and then what I’m doing is I’m taking a picture. So if you go back to those old like polaroids, you know those little click pictures, right, the cameras, and that’s what he’s doing. And he’s like I’m looking, I’m taking a picture, and then I get up over the ball, I’ll take another look, I’ll take a picture. And then he said I’ll take one final look, I’ll take a picture, and then he’ll say all right, tiger, let’s putt to the pitcher, like Papa used to say. And that’s what is basically. I mean, that’s mental imagery right there and that’s a big key of why he’s made some of the most amazing putts over the course of his career.

0:37:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s unbelievable. Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at First Form, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post-workout protein shake. I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis, and so I know that with the post-workout shake the Formula One, first of all, it’s fast acting. So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym, but also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks. So be sure to go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your First Form Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free First Form products. So again, go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18strong.

You know you talked about how with the game of golf being different than other sports and you know we don’t focus on the techniques when we’re basketball players and, shannon, I know you have a background in soccer. I played a lot of soccer growing up and I always go back to that. Or even baseball, like you never think about. If you get hit a ground ball and you’re at shortstop, what does it take to throw the ball to first base right versus if you were in center field and still had to throw it a second base? Like you’re never making calculations in your head, or I always find it amazing that if, even if I’m going out and messing around with my son’s soccer team and helping coach and I hit a pass and I put it right to a kid’s foot, that’s like running down the line.

I’m like, how do I still know how to do that? Don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t happen all the time, but you do that and you’re like why is golf not like that for most of us? But you’re saying that that’s really what you’re teaching it to be by implementing a lot of these techniques and these tactics of mentally rehearsing. Shannon, what does it look like when we’re actually on the golf course? So we’ve talked a little bit about. You know, like some of the training off the course but Bo mentioned the custom trigger earlier and I know that you know when we’re on the course, how do we then take some of this and what does it look like when we’re physically implementing day of game day? You know you’re standing on the tee box.

0:40:00 – Shannon Shuskey
So yeah, and so, um, standing on the tee box first, there, there’s several types of imagery that you do. Um, what I mean is is one is you want to see your shot pattern, how it’s going to go, the trajectory and stuff like that, but then you want to do your mental imagery before you know. Matter of fact, jason I believe it’s Jason day. He was notorious back when he was a PGA champion that, I mean, it was obvious. He’s there holding his club, he got his eyes shut and he’s going through his mental imagery, and so that’s one of the things that you do, because what it does is it’s teaching your body to react to it. Matter of fact, phil Mickelson I love in the interview that he was talking about, he makes it reactionary to when he makes the shot surrender in his brain. Like if you look at him and he’s staring off off and it looks like he’s in la-la land. That’s what he’s doing. He’s doing mental imagery making that shot surrender. So then when he’s confident and committed, he reacts to it, and then that’s when he steps into the play ball and then he goes and plays. That’s the important part. When you’re, when you’re going through your shots, is seeing that, and here’s a part. Here’s a thing you have to always vision the perfect shot. You don’t want to envision a bad shot, because what you’re doing is you are programming your brain and wiring your brain to perform negatively.

A great example is Jacqueline Hernandez. She was in the Sochi Olympics. She was a downhill snowboard cross racer. And what was happening and you can actually look this up in the New York Times there was an article that was written because there was going around talking about mental imagery. Everybody’s doing mental imagery and all this stuff. However, when they got to her, she said that she kept seeing herself fall in this particular turn over and over again. And then what happens is she’s setting herself up as like a self-fulfilling prophecy. But here’s the thing she’s training her mind and body to react that way, going into that turn when she goes down. So here she is she’s going down, she’s making it, she’s taking her turn going down the hill and as she gets to that turn, guess what? Her muscles start reacting the way that she’s programmed it to do so many times before going into it. Where what happens is she starts feeling shaky. She starts oh no, here’s that turn. Mentally, she’s dreading going into that turn because she’s done it so many times negatively and she’s fallen. Well then, unfortunately, the hate that this happened. She actually fell and then she actually got knocked unconscious and had to carry her off because of it. Now that is like an extreme example of it.

But just think in golf. It’s different. You’re shaking the ball, you’re topping the ball, you’re doing this. You know what I’m saying. So you want to actually visualize the perfect shot, but here’s the thing you can visualize coming out of a bad situation, going into a good situation. What, what? So this is the thing like when you’re going doing you know, for all the listeners going through your mental imagery.

Don’t just think about you’re hitting the perfect shot off the perfect line every single time.

No, you know you. Your limitation is in your imagination. What kind of lie are you in? Are you in a bad rut, deep grass? Are you hitting it off of near a root or something like that? You know what I’m saying, where there’s all these things that can actually take place. But then you’re actually performing the shot perfectly, seeing the shot shape and also as it reedmen, as in reading it. That’s the other thing too is like, when you like, answer your question again coming up, visualize the perfect shot where it goes to the, to the exact place where you want it to go every single time. And then that way, when you’re stepping in number one, you’re going to be a lot more committed, you’re going to be a lot more confident going into your shot. But then you got to trust your athleticism when it comes to when you address the ball that’s what Bo was talking about. Caveman golf, that’s what it is, it’s the less thoughts that’s going in your brain and literally trust your athleticism to pull off that shot that you just visualized.

0:44:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’m picturing standing on a tee box and we’ve all got a hole that we kind of dread, or, you know, we’ve hit a couple bad shots and we’ve got these, these mental images of you know letting that ball fly out to the right and drop into the water or whatnot. And you guys talk about controlling that image and you warn that you know you have to. You have to pay attention to what image you’re putting in. What if we find ourselves stuck on that though, Like we are, we know, like, okay, the second hole at Boone Valley has water on the right. That second shot is daunting and I’ve seen my ball go in there a couple of times, right.

So how do we stop perseverating on that image and break ourselves out of that chain, Even though you know, okay, you’re staying over the wall, All right, I think we all say don’t go in the water, don’t go in the water, and so it’s, you know, focus on putting it on the green. But how do we really break that? And I know that’s not an easy question to answer right here.

0:45:25 – Bo Watson
No, that’s where we have to visit with two things. One, we have to mind map the negative habit, so like when we see a pattern. This is why journaling is so powerful and it’s one of the biggest reasons why we’ve seen a college team that we work with that was outside of the top 50 and now trending into the top 20. And, honestly, if we keep on the same path you know they were averaging over 305 as a team in the fall. Now they’re averaging 284 and they just set the third lowest scoring average in school history on their most recent tournament. So we’re trending in the right direction. But I’m going to tell you the biggest reason why that’s been possible is because of journaling and being very mindful to these details, because when, when we start seeing those kinds of negative, how to lose? Like you said, when we see shots over and over on this one particular hole going to water, we have to first become aware of what behavior and what thoughts are entering our minds when that’s happening. So when we shot a spotlight on what’s going on that triggers it, we can identify the old behavior and autopilot behavior that people just seem to. For whatever reason, we just keep doing the same thing over and over again, and that’s why we like to have these hard conversations. Once we identify there’s a negative habit loop, there is, for an example, let’s say, on that hole you hit it in the water like five times out of the last seven rounds and what we identify is you tense up and you’re trying to control your swing right. There’s always a reward value in our brain where whenever we do some type of behavior, there’s some type of reward for it. Even if you have a very low success rate, your brain will always take that part. Like that one time, four rounds prior, where you are still tense and you still try to control your swing, but yet you hit it 10 yards in from the water’s edge, but you’re safe, right. You will still keep doing that over and over and over again until finally you come to grips with. I like to ask this question to our players hey, out of the last 10 times you do this, what’s your success rate? And what they’ll come back and tell us is like 10%, 15%. I’ll say, okay, now we go deeper in this in the book. But that’s where we kind of teach this interest-curiosity approach that we want to take, and there’s a lot of research to back this up. That’s really, really cool. But when we take that approach where it literally updates reward value in our brain, so to speak Dr Rick Judson talks about this in his anxiety book it’s an amazing resource for that. But what we’ve done is we’ve kind of taken that and we applied it to the game of golf and we show it how it can be even more practical for this and that’s what we’re doing with our players is now we’re able to go. That’s interesting.

I’m about to engage in this behavior that only has about a 15% success rate and what it does it gives you permission to go. Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Why would I do this? And then what we can do is is okay, let’s choose a better path. And that’s where the ball reset, which is in the very next chapter in a book where we go deep on that, and what that does is it literally I’ll help shannon’s uh way to explain it but it literally becomes a washing machine, so to speak, for the brain to do a hard reset.

So we can take a player from a red light state. We can go deep into this if we need to, but we can take a player from a red light state. We can go deep into this if we need to, but we’re going to take a player from a red light state in the brain where there’s so many faults happening right after another. So just give a quick understanding of what the red light state is. You know, basically your brain has multiple different wave activity going on in the brain. So, like when there’s a lot of conscious level fault, your brain can basically become inflamed, so to speak, on some of these brain scans and it’s so fascinating because whenever we miss, like a three-foot putt or something like that, we got so many negative thoughts happening right after another after another. So just think of it that there’s a lot of activity going on, but when we do a ball reset, we can get a player back to green light state within about 10 seconds. That is about the equivalent of them doing 20 minutes of meditation or 20 minutes of yoga in the brain.

Now that’s powerful because what we’re doing is we’re resetting the brain, so to speak, back to a green light state where they can process things. And you know you hear people say this all the time. You know you have what’s called a fight or flight response. You know some people call it the alligator brain, and so it’s like you know, now there’s a threat and the whole prefrontal cortex kind of goes offline, so to speak. And what this reset is doing is bringing on the parts of the brain that actually can function and do things at a normal level, so to speak. And that’s what we’re doing is we’re taking them through a process where we do the hard reset, getting back to a green light state. Then we’re falling out of power talk, and then on top of that, we’re having them relive an amazing shot in the past in a similar situation. And when they go through it in that process, they’re now excited when they get to the last L of the ball reset and look forward, and they’re excited to play this next shot. Now I’ll give you an example, and this is why Sam Snead was so dang good.

Not many people know about this story, but we cover it in a book and I’ll share it for everybody here on this podcast. This is really cool. Those of you that struggle with anxiety, those of you that struggle with nervousness, listen to this. Sam Snead. He is in 1936, the week before he’s going to play in his PGA Tour debut tournament at the Greenbrier. Now he’s playing at the Greenbrier the week before. Now he’s playing with Greenbrier the week before.

The head pro organizes an exhibition match. It’s got two former US amateur champions, one former US Open winner, now Sam Snead’s a rookie. Now word gets out there are so many people coming to watch this match and so there is a ton of people that’s surrounding the first tee Sam’s turn. Sam gets up. He is so nervous he is having to use both hands to steady the ball on the tee. Like can you imagine? Like that’s basically on the verge of a panic attack, if we’re being completely honest. Right, so he is trying to steady the ball on the tee with both hands. That’s how bad he was shaking.

Now he collects himself, he walks back Probably lucky that he actually was able to walk back in that situation. But he’s standing behind the ball and what he does is he closes his eyes, and what he does is he then relives all of his amazing shots in the past on that same hole. He gets up, goes through his routine, hits the shot the crowd gasps. And when he looks and sees his ball flying, hits the shot, the crowd gasps. And when he looks and sees his ball flying through the air, not only is he outdriving his playing opponents by about 20 yards, but he hits it about 15 yards further than all of his most successful drives that he had hit on that hole in the past.

Now wait a second. How does a guy go from on the verge of a panic attack to then hitting his most successful drive ever on the same hole? It was because what he did was doing mental imagery and that’s why it’s such a major piece for a ball reset in the first L when we do a look back that right there. We just had a conversation with one of our college players just yesterday. She had a scoring average of 77 from her first two seasons and right now she just threw the first three tournaments in this spring season. She’s averaging a 72.8. She said the ball reset has blown her secret weapon and it is one of the biggest, most powerful tools that people need that have been able to get people out of these negative habit loops and actually get them to a place where they can attack these things head-on wow.

0:52:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You talk about how you know he he was able to relax and saw his ball go so much further. I remember you guys talking in the book about how so much of this is first of all changing your state to be in a more relaxed state, but then also helping to produce a better rhythm and tempo in your swing. And I, uh and that’s really where a lot of the extra distance and power comes from. We tend to get so focused on trying to muscle through our golf swing, trying to hit a ball further. But I think we’ve all experienced that relaxed swing that just you’re like whoa, how did that swing produce that effect? And I’ve even been doing a lot of research lately just on the body and fascia and how the tempo and the way that our body reacts with contraction versus relaxation and how those things play together with the rhythm. So it’s like so many things that you guys talk about, and then even the physical components from a training side of things, how they all mesh together, and it’s just fascinating to me things how they all mesh together and it’s just fascinating to me.

One thing that I heard you guys talk about on Carl’s podcast was that along with your book, you have a workbook, and I think that that’s important to mention, because so many of us have read books along the lines of what we’re trying to do here, but we tend to read the books and then go on to the next book and go on to the next book. And so, shannon, if you could tell us a little bit about, kind of, the whole structure of your program and why the workbook was so essential to this piece and for people really getting results, I like to say this Our book will put your game on steroids, so to speak mental steroids.

0:54:17 – Shannon Shuskey
But the workbook will put the book on steroids Because here’s the thing you’re going to learn everything a lot faster, first and foremost. But then also, we have activations that are in the workbook, because I mean, goodness, our book would be like a novel, would be huge, if we put everything in there, then downloads and everything like that. That’s in the workbook. And so we have certain activations like going out, doing certain things, playing, um, uh, we also give them like a schedule, it’s in the workbook. Like, for example, you’re like. We also give them like a schedule, it’s in the workbook. Like, for example, you’re like this mental energy, what, where do I start? What do I do? What are the guidelines? You know what am I working on? And here’s the thing we get. We set them, we set everybody up to for success.

For example, like Bo mentioned, about the college coach you know I played soccer in college. About the college coach you know I played soccer in college. Um, I would be extremely let down if my soccer coach did not have a plan. And the same thing on speed skating. You know, with speed skating, that if my coach didn’t have a a thought, well thought out process on what I should be doing now and then not just now, but two months from now and in order for me to peak or to get to a certain level, and stuff like so then what we’ve done is we actually created schedules and things like that in there. All right, what are you working on? What do you need to work on?

And then you know you, you can’t neglect any golf club. For example, we actually had one of the one of our tour players that we’re working with. Um, you know, after about two months, the the putting started struggling was because they neglected putting. You can’t, you can’t neglect anything, any part of the game, and so you basically got to do maintenance work, going through and doing it.

But we, we show you, like, a lot of that stuff that’s in the workbook as well, going in there. And and here’s the other thing too um, I’ve noticed, like when it, when it comes to certain, uh, certain books, that you can go out, somebody will create a workbook that goes with it, right, and it’s like oh man, I’m gonna get that, there’s a workbook that goes with it. And then you look at it you’re like, wow, that’s not even by the author, right, right and then, and there’s, there’s no depth to it whatsoever. So we actually created a deeper depth so we can learn it faster. But then you, you, it’s, you’re, you’re becoming what the book is wanting you to be and you’re walking in your true identity awesome well, anything to add to that?

0:56:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
looked like you were.

0:56:51 – Bo Watson
You wanted to add a little something that that last statement right there, is like the nail on the head because you are becoming the book at that point. And that is the main purpose behind why we created the workbook that way. They have something that is practical and that that’s always been all right.

Some context there me personally and what I’ve seen a lot of other golfers complain about, and when it comes through the mental side of the game and these mental books that are out there and don’t get me wrong, like there’s a lot of good things out there, but one of the biggest comedy denominators I kept seeing over and over and over again and it was also true of me is that it’s very high philosophical, so to speak, but yet there’s no like practical, like ABC step one, two, three, and when it came to applying these things, that’s why you know when we created the book and then, more importantly, the workbook, it is like hey, here, start here, do this, do this, do this, and that way it’s like a clear path.

But even better, you can actually measure Are you actually getting better? Because we have a business test that will actually measure your ability to visualize how good is your mental imagery, and we’ve taken people that have had like a low score of 24 and get that increase all the way up to as high as like 72, 73 over just like a couple months. And so that part is exciting, because now we have something that can actually measure are you getting better at the mental side of the game? And so that’s a big piece to it.

0:58:15 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, we also have like an anxiety test. Who would have thunk it? You know, when it comes to golf, you know what I mean. Like you know, like you had mentioned, like you got this hole that you dread or you got a tournament coming up, you know how do you change the nervous to exciting, but then you know what is your gauge that you’re going by. In other words, how are you going to do a check engine, like check for your brain, and then so we have an anxiety test. We’ve got a lot of self-evaluations that are in there that’s not in the book as well to where you can kind of see, if you’re transparent with yourself, it’s going to give you a much better performance because you know where to start, you know what I mean, and so it kind of gives you that. It kind of puts you in the starting blocks, ready for you to take off.

0:59:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and you guys do have quite a few downloads in the book too that I’m sure are part of the workbook as well. If they don’t have the workbook that they can go and do some of those things. Awesome, Bo. Where can they go find?

0:59:16 – Bo Watson
what’s the best place for them to find the book and everything that you guys are doing? Yeah, the best place it just goes simply to the website. It’s indesignsecretscom. So you just go to indesignsecretscom and what’s pretty cool is we created a really special offer. They can also get the book on Amazon and they can do that, and you go get a full price of $24.95 on Amazon. But if you get it through our website, it’s actually a personalized, autographed version of the book from both Shannon and I and we’re basically buying a book for you. All you have to do is just pay shipping and handling and it’s only $9.95 for that and we will send it out personalized, signed copy and there’s a couple other bonuses there too. So, yeah, you can get the book at either location, but if you go to our website, it’s onthezonessecretscom.

0:59:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, awesome, and we’ll make sure that all that’s linked up in the show notes and everything, fellas, we could. I mean, there’s so much in this book. Obviously, people are going to want to go and grab this and dig in a lot more after our conversation. There’s so many different avenues we could go down here, but unfortunately we don’t have the time to do that, so we’re going to finish up with the, the questions we ask everybody that comes on the show. Have a little fun with you, fellas.

1:00:23 – Shannon Shuskey
Um, shannon, I’ll throw this one out to you first, caddy shack or happy gilmore. Oh man, that’s tough. I would say I’m probably happy g Gilmore just because of that. You know, I’ve dealt with some of that stuff in the middle aspect. I thought you know we can overcome them.

1:00:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How about?

1:00:44 – Bo Watson
you Bo? Yeah, I thought about that. It’s definitely happy, gilmore, although it’s such a close tie. It’s just so funny, it is funny.

1:00:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, bo, if you could pick a walk-up song to the first tee box. What are you picking?

1:00:57 – Bo Watson
You know, I still cannot figure out the name of the song, but it’s the. It’s the most popular Darude Sandstorm, that’s what it was.

1:01:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, shannon.

1:01:11 – Shannon Shuskey
So it’s by a Christian rap artist. His name is Andy Mineo, it’s called you Can’t Stop Me. I like the. And then he also had one that actually has been in a lot of commercials and it’s called Coming In Hot, okay, awesome.

1:01:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, shannon, what’s a book that you would recommend to the listeners? It doesn’t have to be golf, it doesn’t have to be anything related to what we’ve even talked about today, but something that means a lot to you, that you tend to share with people, that has made a big difference in your life.

1:01:45 – Shannon Shuskey
I would say the Power of One More by Ed Milet, just because it literally pushes you to a nother level in every single area of your life. You know um very similar. I would say like that’s, that’s what our book does as well. As far as like um, because you can apply what we teach in our book to everyday life, um, and actually champion um every area of your life as well.

1:02:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Fantastic.

1:02:15 – Bo Watson
Beau. Well, besides God’s word, it would be probably Dale Carnegie how to Win Friends and Influence People, because that is an all-time classic and I love it because it just kind of expands on what it truly means to understand people and serve them, and I love that aspect of it.

1:02:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
One of the most popular recommended books we’ve had on the show so far. No All right, bo, if you could pick a dream foursome to go play golf with. Who are you picking and what’s your bucket list course that you would want to take him to?

1:02:53 – Bo Watson
Well, some of these guys would obviously be dead, but it would be Bobby Jones and one. It would have to be Alex Morrison and then probably Tiger, so I’d be the foursome. And then the course we go to, that’s not St Andrews or Augusta, would be the new, most talked about course right now in the Bahamas or the Caribbean, st Lucia, whatever it’s called. Can I go to St Lucia, play hardy golf?

1:03:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, yeah, yeah, that’s a. That’s a good little trip.

1:03:26 – Shannon Shuskey
Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, that’s a good little trip, yeah, so my dream would be to walk with Bo and watch them play, because when it comes to golf, left-handed, right-handed, it don’t matter, it’s like I’ve got a third foot or something you know.

1:03:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome. Well, I’m going to throw it back to you, though. Let’s say you just get to walk with the foursome. I want to hear your foursome that you’re picking, or three other guys that you would like to walk and just hang with.

1:03:55 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, I would say Phil Mickelson, just because of his history. It took him 14 years before he won a major and now he’s actually been very transparent more about his game and what he’s done. Um, and then obviously, uh, tiger, um as well, but um, yeah, those would be the two. And then, um, I would, I would, I’d have go, but Bo will go with me so he can teach me more.

1:04:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, Awesome. What’s a social media account that both of you guys follow? You don’t have to both follow the same account, but one from each of you. That, and again, doesn’t have to be anything related to golf or anything we talked about that you just find fascinating and think the audience would benefit from checking it out.

1:04:45 – Bo Watson
Bo All right, I got to say two. It’s going to be Ed Milet and Dr Andrew Huberman.

1:04:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome.

1:04:52 – Bo Watson
Both favorites of the show here.

1:04:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Only one has been on the podcast, but would love to get Huberman on one of these days. How about you, Shannon?

1:05:00 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, well, definitely Andrew Huberman, for sure. Matter of fact, a lot of our studies came from his. You know that’s in our book, that came out of Stanford and basically some of the stuff like even like we talked about mental imagery, just the basics of mental imagery just kind of getting back onto that and getting at least 50 reps in, you know no longer than 20 seconds you know that came from studies out of Stanford and stuff like that. But definitely when it comes to that, yeah, I would say by Ed Matalette and Andrew Huberman.

1:05:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right. Last one, and Shannon, I’m still going to throw this at you, even though you said you’re not much of a golfer yourself what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given, shannon, you, I’ll have you go first trust it saved it and did that come from Bo? Yes, I’ve had a yes, how about you, bill?

1:06:10 – Bo Watson
You know, I really believe the best golf advice and this is going to help everybody on here is surrender the shot before you play it, love it. Surrender your shot. So the outcome of the shot, surrender it. No matter what happens, good or bad, before you play it, man, you can just move forward much faster fantastic fellas I’d have to agree 100.

1:06:32 – Shannon Shuskey
That’s one, one of the things this, this that we’ve seen, is like. If you, if you, see golf as a game of mistakes, it makes it easier to you, know, you know, to surrender the outcome before you even walk into your shot.

1:06:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, fellas, this has been fantastic. I’m really excited for the 18STRONG Crew to dig into your work. I know that you guys are on a mission to help 100,000 golfers shoot their lifetime low, so hopefully a lot of the 18STRONG Crew can be a part of those 100,000 golfers. Any last pieces that you want to share with us before we let you go, bo?

1:07:13 – Bo Watson
The biggest thing I can say is, when you look at the game of golf, a lot of people say game of golf is 90% mental and 10% fiscal. But here’s the thing why is it that everybody is spending 100% of their time on 10% of the game? Now I understand different people like, say, beginners. It might be more like a 60-40 ratio, it could be 70-30. But the problem that I’ve seen over the last 40, 50 years is that so many people are going after technique, technique, technique, and then they feel like once they get to a point where their technique’s okay, then they start working on the mental game. It’s already too late.

And I’ll just say this really quick there was a beginner golf study that they did that measured an approach shot, and what was so fascinating is that they found that with the three groups, one did physical and mental imagery, one did physical practice, the other one did something totally unrelated. What was fascinating was that the group that did physical and mental imagery outperformed the one that did physical, and the totally unrelated obviously didn’t even have any benefit whatsoever. But what that goes to prove is that if you put mental work on your game on the back burner, it’s going to hurt you like down the road, and so you gotta gotta get ahead of it, and that’s one of the big reasons why we wrote the book, and so people can actually see a breakthrough very quickly.

1:08:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How about?

1:08:49 – Shannon Shuskey
you, shannon? Yeah, so actually that’s a loaded question. I love it. It’s not what’s happening around you, it’s not what’s happening to you, it’s what’s happening on the inside of you. It’s how we respond to certain events. You know how we actually cause. You know your emotions can change your moods. You know your movement can change your emotions and stuff like that.

And so I think that’s a huge game changer and to realize that it’s I like to say it like this it’s our response ability. It’s our ability to be able to respond to certain events that can take it, to take our life to a whole other level, not just our game, but knowing that it’s not what’s happening around you, it’s not what’s happening to you, it’s what’s happening on the inside of you and it’s how you respond to those things that actually change it. It’s not thoughts determine what you want, actions determine what you get, but it’s your behavior that can actually change it. It’s not thoughts determine what you want, actions determine what you get, but it’s your behavior that can change your future and it’s how we act, in that you know decisions determine your destiny, you know, and your focus can determine your future.

1:10:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s so good. I’ve never heard it put like that response, response ability. It’s just, it’s perfect. It’s perfect. All right, fellas, can’t thank you enough for the time and really look forward to, first of all, seeing you guys accomplish this goal of a hundred thousand golfers and beyond. Um and just. I’m excited to put this into my own practice, my own game, and shoot my lifetime low as well. So thank you for coming on to both of you guys.

1:10:25 – Bo Watson
Absolutely. Thanks for having us, Jeff.

1:10:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, thanks for listening to the 18STRONG Podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Ryan Degale (Orthopedic Spine Specialist, Founder of Golf and Body)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 370
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Listen in as Ryan DeGale, an orthopedic spine specialist with a 17-year tenure in strength and conditioning, shares his wealth of knowledge on maintaining spine health, specially tailored for golfers. Our discussion ventures into the realm of practical self-care for the back, steering clear of common misconceptions about back surgery and providing a rich understanding of spinal anatomy and physiology. For those passionate about golf, Ryan’s insights on specific exercises, showcased on his Instagram, offer a path to a pain-free golfing experience, reinforcing the importance of proactive measures over reactive ones.

In our engaging conversation, Ryan sheds light on the intricacies of the body’s supportive systems, such as ligaments, tendons, and fascia. He details the advantages of the ELDOA method over traditional inversion tables, emphasizing how these tissues play a pivotal role in posture, injury prevention, and overall athletic performance. We also examine the overlooked but crucial concept of fascia in body mechanics, highlighting how proper technique in physical therapy and massage is vital for maintaining the health of these tissues. For competitive golfers, Ryan discusses the necessity of a tailored fitness routine, underscoring the potential pitfalls of long-distance cardio and the benefits of interval training and personalized core workouts.

Wrapping up our rich dialogue, Ryan brings his clinical nutritionist expertise to the table, examining the impact of dietary choices on health and the controversial food pyramid. He offers a unique perspective on how nutrition intersects with the culture and competitive dynamics of golf. Join us for this episode as we traverse a broad spectrum of topics, from spinal health and body mechanics to the nuances of training for competitive golf and the intersection of modern medicine with nutrition, all aimed at enhancing performance and well-being both on and off the golf course.

Born in Barbados, Ryan is a 36-year-old strength coach with 17 years of experience in the field. For the past 12 years, he has trained under Guy Voyer DO, specializing in orthopedics and body motion. With over 20 years of experience in playing golf, Ryan works with competitive players and is the proud owner of Golf and Body. His mission is to help golfers play pain-free golf. 

(00:04) Masterclass on Golf Body Spine Health

Orthopedic spine specialist Ryan DeGale shares practical approaches to back care and dispels misconceptions about back surgery for golfers.

(12:31) Unlocking the Body’s Intelligent Systems

ELDOA method focuses on end-range motion and creating space in the spine, training supportive tissues, and preventing injuries in daily life and sports.

(23:01) Preventing Back Pain in Golf

Nature’s strategies for preventing and managing back pain, including seat warmers, stationary bikes, and active reinforcement for muscular imbalances.

(29:00) Discussion on Golf Swing and Posture

Eyes, fascial tension, and spinal health in golf, emphasizing holistic approach and collaboration with experts for enhanced performance.

(36:59) Training Essentials for Competitive Golfers

Personalized fitness routines, mobility, interval training, targeted core exercises, and individual goals are crucial for competitive amateur golfers.

(47:48) Importance of Fascia in Body Mechanics

Understanding fascia and proper technique in physical therapy and massage, with insights from experts and resources for further learning.

(55:52) Modern Medicine, Golf, and Nutrition

Comparing historical diets to modern processed food, dental health, celebrity golf foursome, inclusivity in golf, and competitive dynamics of golf tours.

@Hormozi

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 270 with Ryan DeGale from Golf Body. Thanks out guys. Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer, and this episode with Ryan DeGale from Golf Body is exactly about that Playing golf for as long as you possibly can. Ryan is the owner and founder of Golf Body down in Miami and he is an orthopedic spine specialist. His background is in strength and conditioning, but over the past 17 years has really become an expert in the spine, especially working with golfers. So I like to think of this as being a bit of a master class for especially those golfers that are out there, like yourself, possibly like myself, that have struggled with some back pain in the past and finding ways to really help yourself to eliminate your back pain and really to give you a more optimal and optimistic outlook on what the possibilities are for you to play pain free golf in the future. Ryan is an expert at really breaking down the anatomy and the physiology of what’s going on between the fascia, the muscle, the ligaments. He’s got a great Instagram channel where he really dives in and shows different exercises for these different types of exercises and for spine health in general. So you’re really going to enjoy this episode with Ryan DeGale.

Our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. So let’s get to this week’s interview.

Ryan DeGale, welcome to the 18strong podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man, this will be fun. We’ve had a couple of conversations, we’ve tried to do this before and had a couple of technical difficulties, so this is going to be fun to finally dig in and get to chat a little bit more. I think that this is going to be a masterclass on the back, which is what a lot of our golfers need. I think I’ve learned myself, even as a physical therapist, just watching a lot of your content, your Instagram and just kind of learning about what you do. I’ve learned a ton, and so today, what I would love to do is make this very practical for the golfers listening on, what are some of the things that they can do, how can they understand Maybe they’re back a little bit better and the things that they need to do to help prepare themselves. So, first of all, welcome back to the show.

0:03:08 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, awesome, so it’s good to get it in. Got a little bit of practice before, so looking forward to digging deeper into it and maybe just touch on a few subjects that maybe we didn’t touch before. Maybe there’s some things I left out, that I could do better this time.

0:03:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, all good man, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about your history, though, because you start out in the strength training world, but you are a spine specialist and you’ve gone deep and you’ve learned from some of the best in the world regarding spinal health, and now you especially work with a lot of golfers too. So this is a perfect lineup for what our people need.

0:03:43 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, so I’ve been a strength coach for 17 years. I’ve been orthopedic specialist for 12. I felt like you know if you can make the biggest difference? You know I wanted to. I love niche, right, I’m very nerdy with that kind of stuff and I kind of got put onto this, this kind of Givolié rabbit bowl where it just literally just never ends. These courses are so awesome and so practical and so useful that you can retake the same course, even the most basic ones, 30 times and learn something new every time.

The you know G was a former orthopedic surgeon who studied anatomy. You know, he was tired of cadaver so just became a surgeon so he could study living anatomy, because living anatomy is living, is different than you know with like formaldehyde and all of the dead body stuff you know. So. And then he developed a series of an entire program, not just the algohm method, to prevent surgeries. And his, from his words as a surgeon, he says that 3% of all back surgeries are necessary.

And so you know, you know it depends, right? So we’ll say like maybe non-contact, like disperneations, or you could have like I don’t want to get too technical, but maybe this shifting forward or backwards. They call it a retrolyzed thesis or a spondylized thesis, and you know there’s a lot of things that we can do for ourselves where we can. You know it’s a self-responsibility thing. And he says favorite quote is you are your own best therapist, and so I really love that, and so that’s pretty much what I teach. I basically teach people to not be codependent so we can get them strong and fit in those bombs. Yeah.

0:05:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Love it, love it. So when you say that and when Guy says that you know 3% of back issues are, you know, really necessarily need surgery, what are some of the things that you see people going in for where you’re just like man if I had, if I was able to get my hands on this person. What are some of the diagnoses or what are some of the issues that people go in for that really you feel like man if I only had some time with them.

0:05:34 – Ryan Degale
A few millimeters of space or the disverteation at L5S1, you know they when they have symptoms like very heavy symptoms. But you know everything with the tissues in the body there’s really not that much room. So if you create a little bit of lubrication and a little bit of space in the right area and able to, you know, restructure the pelvis, create a little more flexibility, the ribcage, and so they’re able to play golf, because you know when you most players, after they hit a golf shot, that’s when they have back pain. So you need space to decelerate the golf club. You don’t get to the top and you drop in pain. It’s mostly after the ball and so just kind of reconditioning things. You know it’s.

It’s difficult because you know, you know the the medical industry is really governed by insurance these days where you have to code. A lot of the programs are coded, you know, and it’s difficult for the doctors and therapists where they’re kind of at the mercy of the insurance companies of how to treat and this stuff. And so why a lot of people have better um with private practice or cash. Not everybody can afford it. But you know I’m trying to bring small awareness to that and you know it does not have to be fancy, it just has to be right and it has to be consistent.

0:06:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And what would you say is kind of the primary driver of that pain. That is most typical. Obviously, there’s a lot of different things that can go on with the back, but you’ve got these golfers you said a lot of times. You see that they have pain as they’re finishing their swing, they’re getting through contact. What are the typical structures, what are the typical issues that are causing that? Or, and you know, back wise, hip wise, shoulder wise, and what are some of the things that you feel like most guys or girls could prevent this if they had a little bit more knowledge of what they needed to do.

0:07:09 – Ryan Degale
I think, just really a specific warm up. Because you know, like, if you look at professional sports, you see, like you know Steph Curry, he’s, you know, doing some drills on the basketball court. You see, you know, when I’m writing a program for somebody who does this game for a living, you know they’re at the gym 30 to 45 minutes prepping the tissues, getting their nervous system activated. You know, warming up the ligaments correctly and doing all these kind of things in the lower back that are specific to what golfers need. You know, maybe a few pelvic till, some spinal translations, some rolling on, roll this mind, because everybody’s so afraid of fletching. But you know, fletching we have to in sport. You know that there is a lot of our flexor chain being used and so we need to prep the body in that way where everybody’s afraid of doing extensions and flexing. But you know we have to train it in a controlled environment so that we can go out there and not have to think about it. And with the Aldo method it’s basically a French acronym for creating space in a joint segment and so you know, you can use your own body way to decompress your spine in different segments of the spine after your rounds, which is fundamental, and then you go to sleep and then the tissues will heal at that length and you’ll be able to slowly but surely rehydrate this, the body. If you give it enough the great environment, with the right tools, it can regenerate.

I’ve seen it, you know. I’ve seen it in imaging studies, working with people with severe scoliosis when they were basically given a ticket of paying for the rest of their life. It’s just a management system. There’s no cures, it’s just a management system. How can I manage? You know the way I feel every day with the two of us, the tools I have, and I think that gives people a lot more empowerment than just being the sort of victim thing which is unfortunate, with the surgeries, pills and injections. And you know it’s destroyed a lot of lives and that’s really the truth.

0:08:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I’m sure that a lot of people listening, myself included, are thinking man, this is very refreshing to hear that you know it’s not a death sentence when you start to have back pain in your 30s or 40s or 50s. And I think a lot of people just kind of assume that either I’m on my way to getting surgery at some point down the line, or I’m going to have to give up golf, or I’m going to have to start to restrict some of my activities.

0:09:17 – Ryan Degale
We are not giving out golf for our Never right, that’s it.

0:09:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Forever. You play it until you keep swinging forever. But so, regarding like the looking at the X-rays, the MRIs, the films, so you’ve actually seen changes in the disc space and the different tissues after going through some of this maintenance stuff.

0:09:38 – Ryan Degale
Yeah with my clients, and G puts up slides with a lot of cases. We’ve seen cases of some of the most well-known athletes in the world. You know he’s kind of like the guy who works in the shadows and nobody knows about. He is so paranoid about quality control, which I really love him for. I mean there is some, you know, like Bryce Turner from LDA USA.

You know that he’s the best LDA teacher in America. I mean he’s worked with Kansas City Chiefs, to the LA Dodgers, to any professional hockey, baseball, you name it, and so including pro golfers, and you know you just have to be really careful because you know precision is key when you’re like in the LDA world there’s five levels, he’s creating six, but even at level four there’s only, like you know, there’s only like probably a hundred of us in the world and so there’s only four of us in the state of Florida, and so you know the supply and demand is not really there. It’s kind of mostly. You mostly find these techniques referrals. We don’t. We’re not like Morgan and Morgan Hubbubboards, and you know all this other stuff going on you know what I mean.

So I know for a fact that you know guys like Woods and Cantley, and you know a lot of these other guys, have used this method. I mean, cantley had the ticket of yeah, he had a misdiagnosed disfracture and you know. You know there’s a lot of different tools but you know, sometimes I think it’s becoming a lot more popular and so you got to be a little bit careful because essentially, what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to create an anchor and then you’re trying to, with different angles of the way you position your limbs, you’re creating forces that oppose that anchor and it takes somebody the lot of experience. It’s not as simple as just kind of downloading a video and doing it right the first time. It takes. It’s a skill that you have to develop and you, quite frankly, can’t afford not to have it. I mean, I suffered from back pain.

My background is track and field. I did mixed martial arts type boxing, brazilian Jiu Jitsu and that kind of stuff. When I took a break from golf I played. I started at 11, played golf every day for probably 10 years, got burns out, you know, did the martial arts thing, came back to golf and you know I’ve been, you know, enjoying it ever since, but you know, these are a lot of things that we need to take responsibility for and you know, and just not you know it takes a lot of the fear away, in my opinion, when you have a tool that you’re like okay, I feel this. I haven’t understanding what it is, and that’s kind of what ELDOA practitioners, and so our practice shares, teach people how to do.

0:12:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So can you describe for for all of us, especially kind of the in lay person’s terms as much as possible, what’s actually happening when you’re doing some of these ELDOA techniques and why is it so effective in helping to produce the space, helping to decompress? So that’s a really great question.

0:12:32 – Ryan Degale
So everybody’s seen the inverted tables, right? Yep, so you hang upside down and your ligament system is just hanging upside down and you’re creating space that way. Well, what happens like when you go like this? Then gravity takes over and then you’re like a slinky. You go back to me, decompress, you get temporarily they look pretty bulky to me. They’re not something you just carry in a suitcase, right. Right, say, if you’re with your boys and you’re playing scene Andrews and the links up over there and turmeric and all that, and you start having backman, you have your, you know, upside down inverted table, you don’t.

So the ELDOA method is so, without getting too technical, it reconditions so ligaments connect bone to bone, tendons connect muscle to bone, flashes like Saranrat for our body. That creates a structure and it has intelligence and it communicates with our brain of what’s going on as far as length and tension and all this kind of stuff is extremely intelligent. And what the ELDOA gives you an opportunity to train all these systems to support that disc in gravity. Right, so you’re going to war with your tissues for a minute and so you’re actually stretching those tissues, stretching, stretching and you’re creating end range of motion with all this stuff. And then when you stop the posture and you can tensely do this, that structure is way stronger than it used to be, and so you’re able to do things and create space and fold that space and create circulation to get that disk to where it needs to be. And that’s what the difference is.

0:13:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So it’s almost like you’re creating a space, like an inversion table would create it, but you’re forcefully doing it and while you’re doing it, you’re teaching your body how to support those structures, how to kind of you know. Watching some of your videos online, it’s interesting to see how many little muscles are all around the spine. I think most of us don’t really visualize that when we think of our backs, that there’s so many little muscles, ligaments, tendons, everything that connects all of these different pieces of the back, and so you’re helping to train all of those different pieces to basically support it, almost like a bridge, like a structure hanging from guide wires.

0:14:36 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, yeah for sure, and the great thing is is that the specificity of it. Now, the inverted table is one exercise, right, there’s 120 plus L-doll postures, and so like there’s L-doll postures for the TMJ. I mean, believe it or not, the skull moves. There’s biomechanics of the skull that have two L-doll postures for which are too technical. I’m not that smart. I use the ones for the SI joint in the spine mostly for golf. The ones for the hips are really important. A lot of people have hip pain, a lot of hip replacements and stuff like that.

0:15:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You mentioned the fascia and how basically elusive it is, but how important it is. It’s around everything in our body pretty much. How important is being able to understand its role in not just our body but our posture, our athletic ability, even from the standpoint of swinging faster or moving better. How much does the fascia and how much are we just now starting to learn about how important it is? Because it seems like before it just kind of used to be thought of as almost like a throwaway tissue or like just the saran wrap that holds us together.

0:15:39 – Ryan Degale
I mean I can’t say the bare to myself. I think Europe is far ahead of America when it comes to studying the connective tissue. The people who are the best tissue specialists are in Germany and France and so they haven’t forgotten about it. It’s mostly a little bit more towards the American side. The standard of care in America is a lot different paradigm than it is in Europe. It’s not that great in Europe either, but it’s not very pharmaceutical driven as much. It’s not very surgery driven as much. It’s not as much as much as things like this. They don’t make billions and billions of dollars from pain medication. It’s not mostly an American thing. I mean it’s.

Sometimes people get addicted to pain meds from back issues and that causes a whole other set of issues. The throwaway tissue yeah for sure, that’s what Guy says. He says that a lot of the American scientists they basically threw it away and then studied organ systems and everything that we’re talking about. But it’s there for a reason and it’s almost like it helps disperse energy through the body. It gives us our structure.

We don’t have structure without fascia and so you know how these guys can jump off of buildings with parkour and all that kind of stuff and energy is dispersed correctly and movement disperses energy. Energy is never destroyed, it just changes its form. And so you know, you know, being elastic in the golf swing, having a good energy absorber and having normalization to that fascia and training it in its maximal length will train the nervous system so you’re less likely to have like tears with ligaments and all this kind of stuff. So you’re training that body to almost get ready for being overstretched and having intelligence and having intelligence so you don’t have sprains of lower back issues and that kind of stuff.

0:17:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So are there specific techniques that you use? I mean, obviously we’ve been talking about the aldoes and kind of these one-minute longer postural type situations. But what about for that explosive reactive stuff, for that like the X factor that you are talking about in your Instagram series and that whole stretch and contract, and how do we train the tissue for that? Or even a situation this will ring with a lot of people that we just saw, like in the Super Bowl when that football player was running off the sideline to go into the game and tour as a Achilles. I assume he tours Achilles.

0:17:58 – Ryan Degale
Crazy. Yeah, he did tour as Achilles. I was like, yeah, look at that left leg. I mean, we were just talking about that. And so bridges have cable to sway energy and so in good engineering, everything moves. The earth moves, so you have to sway energy and that’s how our tissues work. As far as that is concerned, I think it’s Hydration definitely plays a role into that sort of stuff, and also a lot of Gee teaches a lot of proprioception and neurological techniques, because ligaments are intelligent, they’re constantly communicating with the brain of like, okay, you’ve heard of the Golgi tendons and stuff like that.

And so there’s ways to create awareness and some of the major ligaments in the hip for better where it is, because a lot of the times most people work on the hardware and don’t upgrade the software. I could have a computer that’s very powerful, but if I don’t have software to tell it what to do, then it’s going to be inefficient. And so with golfers, for instance, if you have issues with trail elbow stuff, there are certain ways to create awareness in the glenicumeral joint or the AC joint, or making sure that you have enough awareness in certain parts of the elbow Because, like takeaway, and then you have a lot of these different arm structures that players are plagued with and this and that, and it can be just kind of a case by case basis and that has kind of a general statement for that. So you know it goes in cycles. So you want to take what somebody needs in the first cycle, say, if they’re extremely tight, they don’t have any. You know they don’t have good motor pathways. You want to, you know, regulate that. And then you go into a lot more reinforcement and reinforcement is so important to stabilize the joint.

If you lengthen you must strengthen right, and so most people, you know, have no mobility. They strengthen and then they go on speed. And then I just put up a story of a 76 year old guy who I took through a program, put him on a stack system. That guy gained over 10 miles an hour at club head speed. Dude, that’s incredible. Like he’s, at 76 years old, swinging between 96 to 104. Whoa, and he started at 89 to 92, I think he said and so, but he’s a general. You know, you put in the work. We barely used any weights. When you get elastic and your brain knows what to do and how to move, it makes the golf instructors job so much easier Because you know these guys have bodies that don’t move in front of them. Then they have to try and make a golf swing out of that, so it’s challenging for them.

0:20:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, if you could go a little bit further into that idea of you know many of us just kind of strengthen, then we try to throw a speed onto it. But you also said if you do end up lengthening, you got to strengthen. Why is that so important, aside from just going and trying to get that extra range of motion or go get more flexible, which is what 90% of the golfers out there think is I just need a bigger turn, I need to stretch more.

0:20:58 – Ryan Degale
Power is nothing without control, and so adding stability and you know if you have if you don’t have enough stability for the body, especially in the spine area, then you’re more subject to ligament tears. You know where they overstretch and there’s not enough stability to support the joint correctly. And so I’ve had people who have programs where we do 80% stretching, 20% reinforcement and you have a little bit of awareness in there. And then I have people that are opposite. I’ve had, like there’s certain golfers who are female, who are hyper elastic, where we do 80% reinforcement, 20%. I didn’t even have them do one stretch, maybe one or two for a certain, maybe some of the internal rotators of the hip and stuff like that. But you know they’re doing, they’re being stabilized because that’s why they have pain. We’re the same guy who has a symptom where he needs to do the opposite program.

0:21:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And when you say reinforcement, what exactly do you mean by reinforcement exercises?

0:21:51 – Ryan Degale
Just strength training you know like, for instance, it depends where their weak areas are, but a lot of the time the proximal hamstrings are weak when you have, you know, your sit bones, where the hamstrings originated.

And then there’s two that goes into the on the meadow part of the knee, one to the outside of the knee, and so do I want to reinforce. Is this person’s knee unstable? There are certain ways to reinforce the fibers that are a little closer to the knee or the pelvis, where the pelvis has weird things going on, where either it’s still too far forward or it has these sort of motions called torsions that cause issues. Most people think they have a leg length discrepancy, where one leg is a little longer than the other, but it’s actually a pelvis issue that you need to address. That’s pushing one side forward and the other one is back, and so you know, and then they start having like issues with plants or fascia, and you know their motion and their gall swing have done balance. Because you know if you have a lot of weight on one side compared to the other, you can cut some prompts.

0:22:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, many times, whatever the area is that they’re having the problem with or the pain in, isn’t necessarily what is really causing that pain.

0:22:56 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, sure, it’s a structural balance thing. I think structural balance like paramount with 80% of. I have about an 80% success rate with people with orthopedic problems, mostly back injuries. They’re low hanging fruit. For me, back injuries is very, very like if they didn’t get hit by a bus or fall over from a you know a two-story building or something. I’m like you got a really good chance. You could be feeling good, and so I just like the easy cases and then I’ll have more complex cases. I had a client from a guy from Canada who had 20 surgeries and so like he’s playing golf pain free. Why can’t you?

0:23:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, wow. So what about the golfers that either have back pain or maybe the ones that don’t have back pain? Maybe this is an even better question. As far as, like a maintenance thing, kind of a preventative maintenance thing, what are one, two, maybe three things that you would recommend Like, hey, these are some, like you said, low hanging fruit things that you can do to maybe prevent it or, you know, help to really almost eliminate or reduce your chances of having back pain with golf.

0:23:59 – Ryan Degale
I have to realize that there is a world outside of the Florida weather and there’s a lot of people out in the North. You know that it gets cold in the morning and stuff like that, and so, like I always put, I like to put the seat warmers on and that kind of gets things. You know, something very simple like that is really huge. You don’t need, like you know, sure, we can get into micro for specifics, but you know, if you go and you start, you know if there’s a gym or anything like that, or you can get on the stationary bike for a few minutes just to get circulation and heat. Most people use ice, which is a big mistake. You want to get circulation and you want to move that water and blood around to create anti-inflammatory properties to that area. And so the seat warmers definitely. You know getting on the bike and stuff like that.

And you know I don’t want to be biased and say learn L-dope postures, but you know, at least have an idea. I’m sure Bryce has a few YouTube videos up that. Only look at Bryce Turner if you must, okay, because there are some things in there that G is not happy about, but Bryce is the man with that stuff. I got to be a little careful because we signed NDAs. You know it’s up to be a little bit. You know I can, you know, do stuff like this, but demonstrating it he gets a little crazy about that.

0:25:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and, like you said, that’s the quality control piece. Right, that’s somebody who has really mastered their craft and doesn’t want to kind of bastardize by just people throwing up YouTube videos, and so definitely we’ll link up to Bryce’s, I guess, youtube channel if he has it. And I know that, like Dan Hellman did a course through TPI, that I know a lot of the TPI specialists. If you’re a coach you can go look at that stuff as well. You know you’re good friends with Dan and highly recommend working with Dan as well.

0:25:49 – Ryan Degale
What about? Yeah, dan’s awesome, he’s actually who put me on to these methods.

0:25:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I took a golf bomb.

0:25:56 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I took a golf bomb mechanic course with him, you know, 12 years ago, and I asked him, you know, do I take the red pill or the blue pill? And he told me the red was G stuff, and so that’s what I did.

0:26:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what about when you find somebody that and you mentioned like some scoliosis, or you have somebody that and I’m kind of speaking about myself you know, you look at somebody, you look at their posture. Maybe on their films, their MRI, their X-rays, you see that their spine spinal curves are maybe not ideal. Are there ways to change that stuff and what are kind of the techniques as far as like, obviously we’ve talked about some of the LDO postures, but what about even just like static stretching or static positioning? You know we’ve seen some of these different things on Instagram where you’re laying over the top of these different devices. Do any of those things work? Or how do we go about kind of changing some of that structural positioning?

0:26:49 – Ryan Degale
You know we’re a little bit more in the school of thought with active versus passive techniques, and so you know not being reliant on, maybe, a machine or anything like that. You know, I just took a scoliosis masterclass with Guy last year and I learned a lot of new things that I didn’t know before. But you know, in a nutshell, you’re gonna wanna be a little bit more into reinforcement, because scoliosis is a rotational disorder. Do you have a C-curve or do you have a functional S-curve? How bad is it? Does it affect your breathing, cause the diaphragm attaches to the spine, are you?

You know, I just had a woman come to me today with lumbar scoliosis and there’s very little spacing on one side of the desk compared to the other. And so you know, ldo postures are awesome for sure, but reinforcement is something you’re gonna more so wanna focus on versus just doing a lot of stretching, because sometimes areas are tight for a reason, and so what you wanna try and do is to try and focus on hey, if I’m really weak on one side, or if you look at somebody with scoliosis, they have substantial more muscle mass on one side. That’s buying for the other, and you wanna try and build up, you know, just without getting too technical, a little bit more symmetry.

0:27:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Gotcha, the last time you and I had a chance to talk, we discussed a little bit about global posture stretching, mild facial stretching, ldo stretching. What’s kind of the differentiation between some of those and how does that apply for some of the stuff we’ve been talking about?

0:28:17 – Ryan Degale
So, um, mild facial stretching is putting a chain of connective tissue under tension with a specific area. So if I want to isolate, you know the biceps from auris bicarbon, you know hamstring muscle, I’m going to do certain things. I’m gonna put a lot of other areas under tension, including the eyes are important with that, but that’s more specific right Now. If I want a global posture stretch, we’re for, say, the thoracolumbar fascia, which is like the connected tissue from the middle despite to the lower back, which is great for my X-Factor series then that’s putting a figure eight of global connected tissue under tension to support the body more in a dynamic manner, in my opinion.

0:29:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, you mentioned the eyes. Why are the eyes so important in some of these?

0:29:04 – Ryan Degale
So the eyes connect to the skin and the brain, called the dura mater, which is the fascia of the brain. So the brain is encapsulated by the dura mater. The dura mater has a connection to C0, which has a link to C1. And so if you want maximal fascial tension, the eyes have to be looking low, the crown head has to be pushing to the ceiling and that puts all the ligament system under tension all the way down to the lower back. For a healthy spine to be healthy, it has to be healthy from C0 to S1. It just has to. And because it’s, you know, remember the bridge, the cables on the bridge, how it sways energy. It’s that’s called tensegrity, right, and so that’s how it structures this first energy. And our body is no different.

0:29:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what’s, what’s one of the well, you mentioned, the guy that you’ve been working with that has, you know, has had major surgeries. I’m just wondering what’s, what are some of the more serious cases that you’ve dealt with and what were some of the things that you had to work on them with? You know people love hearing stories, stories that they resonate with as far as the pain they’ve been through and getting back out on the golf course.

0:30:10 – Ryan Degale
You know, mostly guys. You know I want to be called the grave digger so because I dig those careers out of the dirt when they think you’re dead. You know, and so you know cases where professional golfers you’re like my career is over, I can’t do this anymore. I went to X and Y and tried this and that and got the surgery and it’s. I’m never the first person people go to.

I’m normally, you know, people say they’re the trainer for the PGA tour or like the, or the stars or the celebrities. I’m like the desperate person trainer, you know, because you know what I do is not necessarily flamboyant and but it does have a purpose where he teaches you how to be a master of internal forces, where you can pretty much pinpoint where you need to create space and I’ve helped players, you know, get very fast in a short amount of time with minimal to no risk, because there’s a risk with anything. You know. I just feel like, if you must in golf I like train light, move fast.

Um, olympic weightlifting I’m look, I know how to Olympic weight lift. I’m actually a CrossFit too, god you know like. I worked at a CrossFit gym my early part of my career and I think there’s a lot of good boxes out there too, but like I think people overdo heavy and explosive. You know I don’t mind med ball throws. I think the stack system is superior. I’d prefer to work on flexibility, neurological control and strength, like in a safe way, and then you hit the stack up and then you got a no risk. You know what have you seen and they’re moving well.

0:31:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, what have you seen with, like some heavy lifting, heavy deadlifts? Have you seen any issues with what that does to the spine itself or other tissues that really have steered you away from that stuff?

0:31:55 – Ryan Degale
You know, I assume everybody has scoliosis. So unless you have somebody who has unless I like to get x-rays of every person I train just have a global view. Now I have done Deak teaches something called a gravity squat and there’s variations that somewhat look like a front squat. You know there are some variations that look like a suitcase deadlift, but you’re doing certain things with the pelvis and certain techniques with the eyes and the crown, the head, that put global tension and then you’re just working the lower body and the lower back. So again, it’s the small details that make something that looks almost identical, different and over periods of time that will compound.

0:32:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you look at it, golfers, and you know how they stand over the ball. Looking at posture, do you feel like there is kind of a? Is there somebody that you look at and you say like that tour pro has kind of the quote unquote ideal posture.

0:32:49 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, sure, I think the most important thing is the gravity line. It’s basic, where our brain thinks where we are in space. So you can take, like in front of the earlobe, in front of the. If you have a side view, where you have the earlobe you have the greater Turkana, where the hip bone is, and then in front of the ankle, they call it the lateral malleolite or the mid foot.

And you know a lot of people that I see their palaces are out of order and a lot of their weight shift is on their toes and so in their golf swings this makes a lot of motion from feel of the toe. You can see this. I have a pressure tracer right there. So you know we can actually test for that as well. And you know, you know there’s I hate to use the stair-tip thing like early extension, but you know that’s a cause and effect thing. So you know you can be a golf pro and you have your students. You can’t figure out why they’re having these issues with their pelvis-body motion and it could be because of structural problem, not nothing to do with what you’re saying. You know, and that’s why I, like you know, very good acquaintances with Jim McClain, chris Comon, rick Smith and you know I learned from those guys of how they look at the golf swing with. There’s just so much experience and expertise there and the guys at the top they always collaborate and I’m certainly in the collaboration mode.

0:34:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s got to be cool being able to coordinate with those guys. I know you said you’ve worked with players that work with those guys. How much interaction do you have as far as, like when, let’s say, you’re working with somebody that Jim or Chris or one of those guys is working with and they’re working on something specific in their golf swing? How much collaboration is there between you and them as far as the physical and what’s going on with the body?

0:34:37 – Ryan Degale
It really depends. You know the PGH tour players are. You know it really depends, right, and so there are certain layers. You know I’ve only really you know it’s a pretty political thing, right, and so, like with PGH tour players, it can be challenging because there’s so many different layers of MDs and physical therapists and trainers and stuff like that. Then they’re on the range every week and there’s people in the area, and so it can be challenging that way.

But I mostly take a I’d step back and take a more consulting role with that. Hey, that may be a great idea and you know, this is maybe the routine before, this is a routine after. Hey, maybe they should reinforce their hamstrings a little bit. Maybe they should start working the fibers for the obliques. The obliques are huge because they terminate into the pelvis and the front of the pelvis manages the mechanics for the sacrum bone, and so you know more of a more in that net light. And I don’t like traveling, you know, and so like. This is why I built the studio. I got, you know, I got a golf course across the street. I can go coach from my Sim Room. You know I’d work 70% remote, and then I have an app where you know I download, you know the videos they need to do and that kind of stuff and more of a consultant.

0:35:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
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What are things that you think most golfers should be doing in their training sessions, in their workouts, that you kind of feel like it’s being missed by, and let’s talk a little bit more like not the professional golfers that have a team around them, but let’s talk about the guys that are going out there playing with their club. They’re competitive guys, maybe wanting to go win a club championship, but they’re kind of doing some of this.

Have a bunch of those guys, yeah, so like what are the big things that they’re missing when they go to the gym, or maybe after the round, or before the round, I think?

0:37:32 – Ryan Degale
in 10, I don’t think like exercises. They all do something, but what time is it and what is it for and where is it in a program? Because exercise or just exercise until you build up programs and systems and then there’s execution behind that and so, like you know, the greatest program with somebody who doesn’t have the intent or the consistency will be out formed by somebody at the media occurred to not so great program with great attitude and consistency, and so it depends. It has to be like a blend between those two. But to answer your question, I feel like I think the assessment process maybe maybe there’s. I like specific, like I can’t think too generally, but I, like you know, I’d probably say a little bit more paramount on mobility and stuff like that. I’m taking less risk with certain things that they’re doing.

I’m not a huge fan of long distance cardio whatsoever for golf. I think it just completely wrecks your knees, creates plantar fasciitis and, you know, breeze hip replacements. But sometimes you need to give those guys a look, you know, put them on some interval training, get things going, because you know they’re not on. The PGA tour ended on Nita. There’s, there’s a cardiac component to that is super healthy and so you know, you blind it up Me. I work out five days a week and I don’t only train for golf, you know, I like, I like movement. I push the sled around for sure. But what I necessarily have, you know, somebody who has, you know, it just depends on this case, right? Yeah, yeah, totally.

0:38:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And I think that that’s kind of where a lot of our listeners fall. That’s where I personally fall too much like yourself, like you know, getting in and trying to do some sort of training or working out or exercise almost most days, whether that even just be going for long walks or so. Everything is not about golf, and you and I have talked about the importance of longevity and just itself.

0:39:20 – Ryan Degale
Right, but, but knowing that there’s a come out is incredibly important, but we don’t want it to slow you down like in your golf. If you want to, you know, like how to guy I just signed up yesterday from upstate New York. He’s a plus three, he’s 40 years old, works on Wall Street and he’s a club champion at Quaker Ridge. And he’s like Brian, I don’t care about looking good, I know if I eat well, I just want to hit these high nasty bombs and beat these young kids’ asses. I was like, okay, let’s rock. All right, let’s do that. Yeah, let’s do it. And then I have.

And then I have, you know, another guy who’s just like look, I want to look pretty. You know, I don’t really think that. You know, I don’t really feel great about myself. I want to, I want to. You know, get some of my, you know. And the great thing is that most of these posture and balances you need a hell of a lot of ab work. So you know, nature doesn’t fall as advertised. Normally. If you have strong abs, you know it will show and things like that.

0:40:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, yeah, let’s talk a little bit just about the quote unquote core. Right, we hear how important the core is and you’re mentioning the strengthening of the abs. What are some of the ways that you have found to be most effective to really train and stabilize and reinforce, as the word you’ve used so many times reinforce? Our core and how do you define the core?

0:40:37 – Ryan Degale
Multiple layers, different fascial directions, breathing techniques and many kinds. But you know I like so, Guy, you know we know ab exercise for almost anything you can think of. I mean he’s, he even created a GI series dude. There’s ab techniques that create pumping through each segment of the colon to the precise area, corners, everything you think of, right, they? I mean we talked about the diaphragm only for 30 hours, you know, and so I consider the diaphragm a part of the core. I consider the spinal reactors with the logisomus, ilicastellus and transverse banalis, all layers of the core, especially the internal bleaks.

I think you get both bank your buck from working the obliques man, because you know they have, they connect ribcage, pelvis, sternum, you name it, they all have. You know it’s all a piece and there’s different layers to all this kind of stuff. And so I mean we know how to. I mean whether I think he spent three days only on the TVA. I mean you know what I mean.

So I think the abs are very misunderstood and I used to be a part of this school of thought where I felt like if I deadlifted, squatted and I was doing all the different things that will include the abs and then I’d work on my abs and like shit, these guys are weak. What’s going on? You know I can deadlift. I’ve deadlifted. You know, when I was doing mixed martial arts I’d deadlifted 485 with no bells or strap, maybe 165 pounds. I was really strong, but I was just like I can’t even do like roll and unroll general sit-ups for like 40, 50 reps. You know what’s that all about, right? And so there’s something. If you look at Pascal’s Law, it’s basically the. You know, when we’re talking about remember, I think, did you bring out Mackenzie, or is that another interview?

0:42:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I didn’t, but no, I didn’t but go ahead.

0:42:30 – Ryan Degale
Okay, so you have many kinds of herniations. You can herniate a disc, you know, in the front of the disc, the side posterior, and there’s a sub-sacrifice to that, and so, like you know, the school of thought is that if you do inflection all the time, then that can herniate a disc with the posterior part, which you know you could also like. For instance, if I put you know, pascal’s Law is the physics of water and how water works, and we have to understand this, because most of our bodies made of water and the spacing between the discs are, you know, it’s a synovial fluid, right? And so we need to train our abs to be complete to do certain things. Because, look look at golf swing, right, you have, you know you’re in this position, right? You’re right here, it’s been fletching and you’re doing a lot. There’s a lot of fletching going on right here and you know, with these different torsions, and so I think we need to train those abs, especially in the flexor chain, carefully, understand who’s in front of you, but we need to reintroduce that.

I think you know these sort of studies were done in 1973 on six college students and it was never refuted any of the research because we asked about this during abs class because we have a ton of physios in there, so naturally they’re going to ask like, hey, this is what’s the deal. And so you know, to answer your question, they’re the obliques, they’re the biggest bank for your buck. I don’t really use a ton of cable machines. I have. I have, like the uh, the K box a little bit that I use for, you know, the eccentric training or deceleration training, but I think we get a, you know, just getting very, you know, straight in the abs with your body weight and then going to the golf course and because we don’t need to do too many things that look like a golfing in the gym. From my experience, so what?

0:44:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
what do some of those strengthening exercises for your oblique? Not that we’re going to be doing demonstrations, but I mean we’re talking like, uh, some side planks and rotation and planking positions just to get people a little bit of an idea. Planks man?

0:44:26 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I think I think anybody even with back pain if they’re back pains below five on a scale of one, it’s had for symptoms they can make sure they tuck their pelvis and they’re pushing away. And there’s so many things you can do with a plank. That is really awesome because the ground is a movable. So if I want to factor progression, I don’t like planks that last more than 30 seconds. That means you’re not pushing hard enough, right? So you’re pushing away. That means you get all the rib cage and the serratus muscles that attach to the scapula. You can take your elbows, you can bring them into the floor. That activates the upper abs and then you’ve got a pelvic tilt.

That, um, actually my ebook all has this. I just wrote an ebook oh sweet, staying the game. It’s called staying the game, um, how to gain confidence and speed coming back from a back injury and I have some some stuff in there and so when you tuck underneath you get a lot of the lower ab fibers and so, like that’s complete, you’re not doing anything crazy. There’s not a lot of you know, and you know if you have back being in play safe that way, that’s totally cool.

0:45:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I feel like the big takeaway from a lot of what you’re you’re educating us on is really the intention of it, right, the like it doesn’t. You don’t have to lift a bunch of weight. You can do. I mean, all of this, most of this is is just simply body weight and getting in a position. Yeah, but understanding what the intention is, where you’re trying to feel it, where you’re trying to push and move and and pull, and it’s those little connections from the brain to those muscles, tendons, ligaments, that really are going to make the most benefit and make the difference.

0:45:53 – Ryan Degale
And it’s something somebody can do. Like what’s the number one complaint? It’s time. It doesn’t require like a ton of time. I just like I’ve had people be like I did 40 minutes of homework today. I’m like why you sound inefficient. Like how much rest are you taking in between? I told you do four things with the minute rest in between for three to four sets. How’d that take you 40 minutes, you know? Do you feel like you can do that for 20 years every day? No, so like why are you doing it like that? Now, if you’re on the LPJ or PJ, it’s why I’m like you better frigging, do that, because it’s your job. You have a multimillion dollar spine but for you know Jack and Jill, you know account and an attorney, they, you know what. What. That’s not sustainable. Yeah, yeah, you can.

Efficiency efficiency dude.

0:46:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you could do these things sitting at your desk and then eat lunch and then get back to your desk and you know 30 minutes, whatever it is. It’s great that you said that.

0:46:43 – Ryan Degale
I have a guy who runs a fun over in Michigan. He’s like a plus one. He plays in state tournaments and stuff he’s doing. You know rotator cuff stretches in his office because that’s when he has most of his time. He walked around his thing. Of course he has his putter and you know he’s there straight. You know it is yeah. So it doesn’t have to be structured per se, it just has to be consistent.

0:47:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, Last thing before we jump into our our final questions here Foam rolling. You know, we’ve talked about fascia, we’ve talked about the tissue. What about all these self-mile fascial tools and things like that? Okay, I don’t like them.

0:47:21 – Ryan Degale
And this is this is just my opinion. I’ve been approached by probably five or six companies a month, three Instagram to promote their products and I was like I’m sorry, I don’t use it in my practice, like it would not come off genuine If I’m, if I’m collaborating with a product or a person and stuff, I believe what they do and you know, I just can’t associate myself. So one thing Gied noticed right, with connected tissue. And there’s also a lot of other good literature, um, a few books over here. If I could just like a hold them up for maybe some of the physios or retrainers out there we want to, you know, take a deep dive into anatomy and so pressure, very sensitive to pressure.

Um, because the connected tissue like this is this is why I’m amazing massage therapist is so important to be careful of who you know works on your, on your tissues. Right, because pressure changes, listening to the body, that takes a lot of time and experience to to um, you know, acquire and so, like, most people have no understanding of the direction of the fascia and which you need to pump. Right, because everything is like a lymphatic system. Right, most people destroy their TFL and their IT band anyways and then they crush their quads. I’ve seen across the genes. They use a PVC pipes and all this crazy stuff. And so, like, fascia wants to be hydrated and it wants to have length and freedom, and that’s what it needs.

And so this is why, in my opinion, the GPS, the ELDOA and the myofascial stretching are superior, because you’re using your own tissues and there’s global pressure throughout the entire chain when you’re in a posture where you don’t, where you don’t create inflammation and that’s not an opinion. I mean, dan did a great presentation at the T uh, we’re a golfing and summit on why he doesn’t like foam rollers either. So that that’s maybe I’m biased, but, um, you know, I I really trust and he’s a lot smarter than me and he’s a lot smarter than Dan.

0:49:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, yeah, Well, that’s, that’s why we have individuals like you on here, because you guys have so much depth of knowledge and Dan and some of the other people that have come on and, and you know the, the video that, um, I think Guy has about the tissue and fascia, uh, for me that really kind of showed how you know how sensitive that tissue is. Um, I don’t even know if you remember the, the name of the video, or or you know the video that I’m referencing, but, um, I think it was maybe Dan that had turned me on to and it actually looked like under the surface of the skin, at the, the tissue that was yeah, yeah, John George.

0:49:51 – Ryan Degale
I think John George sorry, that’s a chef Um, I’ll have to check the author. Yeah, I mean, I think I have maybe around 1200 hours of of it, uh, with Guy. I’ve spent about 1200 hours with him, so, um, he’s, uh, he’s awesome. And then there’s some other. You know, like Bryce is great for El Doa. Um, you know, and these are tools that are so fundamental to helping your clients. I mean, geez, you know, you can really make a difference in somebody’s quality of life with this stuff, and, uh, it does make a huge difference.

0:50:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Did you want to go grab those books that, uh, that you mentioned? Yeah, we’ll. We’ll pop them up on the screen. Yeah, and there’s a view of um, uh, this couple.

0:50:30 – Ryan Degale
I really like Nectar’s for other stuff, you know, because I’m a picture boy, yeah, and uh, grey’s Anatomy 1908 edition is a little bit too old English for me, but uh, here’s one of them. All right, this is probably the one that you’re talking about.

0:50:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, Yep Architecture of human living fascia.

0:50:46 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, and so it basically goes through the structures and you know how, how delicate things are. I mean, hopefully people don’t have a. You know, there’s a lot of anatomy in there, yeah.

0:50:55 – Jeff Pelizzaro
This, this is for all the coaches and medical professionals.

0:50:58 – Ryan Degale
On, on and so you and and so you know also with this, you know, go through different fascial slings and relationships and stuff like that, and I think is you know, if you want to do things at a very high level, is that okay? If I show a dead body, yeah For sure, right? So stuff like that. You need to know where the direction of fibers are and you know when you become a structure of dispersion correctly, you’re more less than likely to have these major problems.

0:51:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. Well, so that that last text that you just showed is that where you get some of the images that you’re putting on your Instagram as a recently.

0:51:34 – Ryan Degale
No, I don’t that’s from, that’s from Jason. He’s a sports Cairo from. I just took a a Pelus Balm Mechanics course. I’ve taken that course six or seven times because again, I’m still have another 28 to go before everything is clear.

0:51:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, and so, yeah, I mean so for those of you listening, go check out Ryan’s Instagram, which is it’s golf underscore and underscore body, right, Ryan? Yeah, Go check that out. He does some amazing videos. He gets very detailed on some of the anatomy and then goes and shows a lot of different exercises. He’s doing a great series right now on the X factor, so by all means go check that out. Is that the best place for them to go and kind of follow what you’re doing?

0:52:17 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I’m starting to bring up my Facebook presence. You know there’s a lot of golfers on Facebook, especially with older guys. You know that have been transitioned to the Instagram over there. Yeah, so the first five part series is 15, 15 videos in which you know we’re the first five. I’m showing you stretches, correct, freedom. We’re going to create freedom because the X factor is essentially the, the measurement between how far the pelvis turns backwards and how far your rib case can turn over that pelvis.

Okay, and so the the more explosive players like Gordon Sargent and Roy Mac around these guys, they have just the most amazing difference between those two. So the average player has a 42 degree X factor. So if your hips turn 48 degrees and your hips and your shoulders turn 90, that means you have 42. Roy has over 63. Wow, so he’s getting like probably 105 to 10 degrees of shoulder turn with X, whatever that is, you know, minus the X factor, minus what his hip turn is.

And so this acts like a coil. And so when good players, they start turning their pelvis towards the target, even sometimes before they finish their back, this act, this creates a stretch. So you actually have more of a stretch with the X factor that way, and if you can’t do that in a controlled environment and not free tissues, I just never understood how you could do that with 120 miles an hour, or even a hundred miles an hour, for that matter. So the next five videos would be five neurologic goal things. Now we have all this extra space, we can now focus on major areas of the hip that our brain needs to learn how to use. And then, of course, we got the reinforcement at strength of the last five. Hey, how do I have all this Now that I don’t hurt myself, now that I have to be strong to for golf?

0:54:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Perfect, and so that’s a. You said a 15 video, 15 video sequence that’ll be coming out.

0:54:07 – Ryan Degale
Yep, I, I, I’m on a video for right now. I filmed 10 already, so I just needed to do the reinforcement section. Awesome.

0:54:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, my man, let’s uh, let’s finish up with our end of the segment questions which you know. Or first one, caddy Shack or happy Gilmore.

0:54:23 – Ryan Degale
Caddy Shack. He’s been a member of Grand Oaks, so where are they filmed it? That’s right. That’s right. I forgot you had.

0:54:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I mean.

0:54:28 – Ryan Degale
Ronnie Dainterfield man, I mean I don’t know how like that guy’s an absolute legend, you know. I mean there I there’s more quotes from that movie than certainly more than Gilmore, for sure, right.

0:54:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I would. There’s. There’s quite a few from Gilmore, but I I personally quote Caddy Shack almost every day. Yeah, yeah.

0:54:46 – Ryan Degale
They could yeah, exactly, all right, what’s?

0:54:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
your walkup song. If you can pick a walkup song to the first T.

0:54:53 – Ryan Degale
Oh man, that’s a really good question. You know I’ve I may. I may not look like a fighter, but my walkup song, uh, in my I have had five mixed martial arts fights. Um was 50 cent mini mince.

0:55:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Nice.

0:55:10 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I’ll like 50.

0:55:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, Is there a book that you would recommend to the 18STRONG crew, and this could be. This could be fitness golf. This could be anything in life that you, it has meant a lot to you, or that you tend to give out as a gift to people.

0:55:25 – Ryan Degale
Well, I think that’s the most, uh, difficult question because I love to read. You know, I thought one of the most interesting books that nobody talks about is nutrition and physical degeneration by Weston A Price, who is a um, who was a dentist and a and a medical um, a nutrition researcher in the 1920s, in which his research is buried because the American medical association didn’t like what they’re, what they funded, what the results were. Back in those days, most people had crowding at the teeth where they had narrow jaws and deviated septums, and you’ll notice this. This actually is conducive to processed foods, processed sugar. They had issues with tuberculosis back then and stuff like that, and they’re way more healthy back in those days than now.

Right, I mean, we’re so lucky we have modern medicine, because there would be people dropping like flies out there, because now more than ever we need to self educate men. It’s hard to trust sources these days because it’s funded like Hoffman. Larouche funded the first dietary program in colleges to teach dietitians how to sell processed food from the food guy pyramid. Because if you like the food guy pyramid, then you look like a pyramid and then you become diabetic and then they get you a medication and then you can’t sleep and then you get a medication, and then you’re backers because you’re overweight and then you get a medication and that’s called an annuity for life. I mean good business for them, not so much for the public right, I was a clinical nutritionist for 10 years around medical labs. I decided to focus only on orthopedics because I wanted to be the best I possibly could and I enjoyed orthopedics more.

0:57:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Great suggestion. Definitely have to check that out.

0:57:05 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, there’s plenty of tea like pitchers, and this is important because our dental health is closely related to our biochemistry in our body. So if you’re getting cavities or something seriously wrong with your body, chemistry, biochemistry. So he would compare a primadize diet to modernized diets and the difference was with whole foods and animal fats and proteins. So this all this low fat propaganda, all this like villainizing saturated fats, get into soy, get into vegetable oil, all that is just marketing to get you, it’s to scare you into buying their products. And that’s the truth. And most people know this now. But they didn’t even know this 10 years ago. Like I had a lot of backlash with the girl like are you serious? My doctor told me you’re gonna kill me. I was like what? What you know? Because they only get eight hours of basic nutrition and then eight or nine years they go to medical school and that’s all for food gap pyramid. And so you know you can’t compete with doctors. Word like I don’t you know. So the orthopedics is a natural stepping step.

0:58:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Crazy, yeah, all right, who would be in your dream celebrity foresum? If you got to pick a foresum of anybody in the world, pastor, president, who you taking?

0:58:19 – Ryan Degale
You know I’m a big F1 fan. I like Eretan Santa. I know a lot of F1 golfers do play golf, but Eretan maybe I didn’t even care if he’s the 30 handicapper, it’d be cool to pick his brain. Of course, tiger Woods because he’s transcended the game. And the last one man, I mean it may sound cliche, but already because he made golf cool. And you know I’m a huge believer in making it accessible to as many people as possible versus being kind of a little bit more of an elitist thing. You know, because what golf has taught me since I’ve been playing, since I was 11, everything was free for me. There was a guy in Barbados called Denny Foster who put a club in my hand and this opened so many doors for me. I mean, the seat time I get and who I can network with because of this game is just it’s a joke. And you know kind of pretty. Made me work, who I am today Having access to that, versus maybe 20, 30 years ago it wasn’t like that. So I like guys like Eastside Golf, but we’re some of their. You know their hoodies and apparel because you know it’s cool, make it cool. You know where the Jays or the Dung or whatever you know and just make golf cool. You know that’s why Anthony Kim was so popular. You know he had those huge belt buckles on point.

I just feel like guys these days they’re a little bit too. You know they’re robotic and sure there’s a lot at stake, but you know it’s an entertainment sport. You know, maybe this is why good good is getting some more views than PGA for events. I mean, I was watching the match the other day. I was like you know it’s a little bit boring. I’m going to turn on good good and watch Michael Thurbey on some hit bombs and talk about his injuries. And Rory was on TV. I’m sorry, but I mean you know we want to be entertained and I feel I don’t. I’ve been to a few live events since I was a member at Durell. I think they’re really close to having the right product. They need to go to 72 poles I don’t like the music in between and the shotgun starts to get all that and then they have a killer product, dude, and I think that that’s going to where the game is going to be going to.

1:00:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, we haven’t had one around here that I know of yet, and so I definitely be interested in checking it out and seeing seeing what the vibe is. I know the people are on one side of the fence or the other, really, but I definitely be interested in checking it out.

1:00:29 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, shotgun starts don’t make sense to me, because they you know they’re supposed to be ebbs and flow, golf course, architecture.

1:00:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and these guys don’t care.

1:00:37 – Ryan Degale
These old guys don’t care about playing. They’re on my, my two TVs. They are. They’re on my. They’re playing Asian tour events for world ranking points all the time it’s off for less golf at around. Get the world ranking points and get rid of that stupid shotgun start and you know and just dominate. You know what I mean.

1:00:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, well, we’ll see what happens with that and you know it’s, it’s interesting to see. I mean now, with Rom going over there and and rumors of some other people maybe heading that way, it’ll be. These next couple of years are going to be. I can’t wait to see this Netflix series that just came out, to see some of the behind the scenes of all of that stuff.

1:01:10 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, it should be interesting. Do you see the the Rom dinner reservation card? Oh, you know the past champion, the? Well, the champion from last year, did you know? I think, what do you say? Meet the PGA tours players. Finally meet on the 18th green at 6pm, you know?

1:01:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you know so that. So that came out last year on I think it was Shephlers I don’t know if those, I can’t tell if that was a joke. If I’ve heard some people say that that wasn’t a real deal and that they just redid it for Rom’s, this for Rom’s this year. So I don’t know, but either way I thought it was fine, it’s just wrong, way better right now.

1:01:45 – Ryan Degale
It’s just wrong, way better right now, you know he’s probably gonna fly there on his personal helicopter when he’s there now, no kidding.

1:01:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, this, that’ll be interesting to watch, all right, so so you’ve got. You’ve got the F1 driver, you’ve got Tiger, you’ve got Arnie the king. If we had the 18th Strong Jet and we could take you anywhere in the world. What’s your bucket list, course that you’re going to with these guys?

1:02:06 – Ryan Degale
Gosh first Augusta. But you know on value nice to not be like these memories. You still need to take me.

1:02:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s definitely on the list over here, I believe. I believe you said your client. You’ve got a client named Jim. I’ve got a client named Jim, both members of Pine Valley. I think we need to get on to Jim’s and get down there. All right, what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given?

1:02:36 – Ryan Degale
GDO Arnie Ells was hitting bunker shots and I walked over to him I said hey, I’m on a body. You know, how do you, how are you so fluid? You said you’re so big and stuff like that be easy. He said just wait on it because you know, most of the swing flaws are G2 improper sequencing, you know, and sometimes less is more in this game and so just, you know, be a little bit more patient. It helped me because I was quick and hitting some little left hurts and you know, after that I was hitting some high draws, low spin. It was pretty amazing because I have a lot of speed. And so if there’s like some things that are a little bit off, are you a little quick? Get ugly real quick.

1:03:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Hard to argue with anything that big earn says.

1:03:22 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, he’s a stud. I mean it’s crazy what he was able to do back when the Tiger era. I mean how’d you win that many times when Wood was at his peak dude? And same thing with Mcklisson. I mean he’s not exactly as popular as he used to be, but you got to respect. You know what what he was doing.

1:03:37 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Totally All right, my man. Last one is there a social media account that you follow? You? Obviously your Instagram is is blown up and you know, I always like to get an idea of what are some of the other accounts out there that people like yourself are watching, paying attention to. That the 18th wrong crew can benefit from.

1:03:56 – Ryan Degale
You know I’m a really big fan of personal development and mindset. I really think that Alex Hermozzi is the is the king of practical application and mindset, because you know you really difficult out there guys, and you know it’s. It’s especially with everything going on AI if you have a job that may be at risk for this sort of stuff. You got to be able to adapt and create value and I really liked that. This is why I decided to come out the shadows and start. You know, I was like you know I need to, I need to go and come out into the world. World. I’m going to start a YouTube channel and and I thought I was about a year ago that I decided to do this and so you know, I’m going to just basically be working, having online business with you know, some in person, of course, but mostly online.

1:04:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, you’ve taken it and you’ve run with it, so whatever you’re doing, it’s working, my man.

1:04:48 – Ryan Degale
Appreciate it, man. It was awesome. Thanks for having me on the show. I mean I could talk about golf and this stuff like for another 10 hours, so I appreciate you led me Babel.

1:04:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, man, well, let’s have, let’s continue this conversation down at Pine Valley. How about that?

1:05:02 – Ryan Degale
I love that.

1:05:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You called Jimbo’s up. You got it All right. Ryan, really appreciate you coming on. Everybody go check out Ryan over on Instagram golf underscore and underscore body, tons and tons of great information. Go on over there, check it out and Ryan can’t thank you enough again for coming on.

1:05:19 – Ryan Degale
Thank you, have a good one.

1:05:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Bobby Holland (Founder Hoolie Golf, Retired Navy Seal))
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 369
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join us as we sit down with Bobby Holland, the retired Navy SEAL whose love for golf blossomed into the creation of Hoolie Golf, a golf apparel brand embodying hard work, grit, and resilience. Listen in as Bobby shares his remarkable transition from an elite military operative to a passionate golf entrepreneur. His story is not just about picking up the game later in life, but how the competitive drive and discipline learned from the SEALs fueled his determination to improve his swing, even leading to the construction of a driving range during a combat deployment. Bobby’s journey is a vivid illustration of never being too late to chase new dreams and how skills honed in one aspect of life can profoundly impact another.

Our conversation with Bobby is a tapestry of tales from action movies sparking a young boy’s dream of becoming a SEAL, to the mental toughness and training insights necessary to endure the challenges of BUD/S. Bobby brings to light the crucial role of relentless optimism and breaking down massive goals into manageable steps, a philosophy that not only saw him through the rigors of military training but also serves as a foundation for his entrepreneurial spirit. His reflections on the nostalgia of 80s action films and the camaraderie found in both military units and sports teams paint a picture of the interconnectedness of his past passions and current pursuits.

In our discussion, Bobby doesn’t shy away from the personal challenges he’s faced, such as rebuilding strength after an injury or embracing the intricacies of golf fitness. He takes us through his commitment to mobility, functional range of motion, and how these have influenced his performance both in the gym and on the golf course. Through Hoolie Golf, Bobby is not just offering apparel; he’s fostering a community for golf enthusiasts and those with a growth mindset. So tune in for a dose of inspiration, a glimpse into the synergy between entrepreneurship and golf, and perhaps even pick up a few recommendations for your next walk-up song or must-read book.

Bobby Holland is a retired Navy SEAL Chief Warrant Officer who retired from the military in 2021 after 21 years of service. He joined the Navy in 2000, graduated SEAL training in late 2001, and spent the next two decades in the SEAL teams, deploying nine times around the globe.

Halfway through his career, Bobby was introduced to golf and has been a passionate golfer ever since. After finishing his military service, Bobby went to graduate school at UCLA’s Anderson School of Management and it was there that he found the inspiration for his next career.

In the Spring of 2023, Bobby co-founded and launched Hoolie Golf, a golf apparel company that offers uniquely badass golf polos, and golf hats for diehard golfers. Bobby hopes that through Hoolie, he can share his journey with golf and inspire other active-duty military and veterans to connect with this great game.

(00:04) Navy SEAL Turned Golf Apparel Entrepreneur

Retired Navy SEAL Bobby Holland’s passion for golf led to building a range during deployment, showcasing hard work, grit, and resilience.

(07:39) Journey From SEAL to Golf Entrepreneur

A former SEAL’s unexpected journey of integrating golf into military life, leading to the creation of Hoolie Giolf apparel company.

(15:29) From Action Movies to Navy SEALs

Childhood passions shape our future, from action movies to SEAL training, with a nod to 80s nostalgia and camaraderie in sports and military units.

(23:27) Mental Toughness and Training Insights

Relentless optimism and progressive training in Navy SEALs, addressing media portrayal and underwater tests with humor.

(29:59) Hoolie Golf

Hoolie Golf brand’s origins, ethos, and appeal to resilient, growth-minded individuals who use mental discipline techniques from Navy SEAL experience.

(41:31) Improving Mobility and Fitness Progress

Overcoming physical limitations, setting fitness goals, and utilizing social media for ongoing development.

(46:19) Fitness and Business Resilience

Incorporating new fitness routines, grit and resilience, and the future plans for a golf community.

(52:07) Entrepreneurship and Golf for Veterans

Entrepreneurship and military service, therapeutic benefits of golf for veterans, pop culture debate, personal insights, and book recommendations.

@DelusionallyConfident

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0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18 Strong Podcast, episode Number 369 with Bobby Holland from Hoolie Golf. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18 Strong Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode we have Bobby Holland from Hoolie Golf. Bobby is a retired Navy SEAL that started a golf apparel company, so this episode we get to talk about all of his stories from overseas and his deployments, his training for buds and seals and how that has really impacted not only his golf game but also building a business in the world of golf. And we definitely dive into his addiction as a golfer so much of an addiction that he built his own driving range on one of his combat deployments, where he literally had to go out and shag golf balls in the moon dust to go pick up the range balls. So this episode is all about hard work, grit and resilience, which is what the Hoolie brand is all about and really what we’re all about here at 18 Strong. So you’re really going to enjoy this one with Bobby Holland.

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0:02:19 – Bobby Holland
There’s it, man. I think a lot why I created this brand was this kind of out of nowhere love that I found for the game. And there’s a lot of other people like me that you’re not all Hoolie’s pick up golf late, but there’s all folks like us, like me, that did pick it up late and fall in love, man, and it just triggered that. Being a seal, being an athlete, being a competitor and then finding this thing that you can’t do very well Kind of drove me nuts and got hooked and yeah, man, it’s been a fun journey and I mean so passionate about the game that I opened up my own golf apparel company, right.

0:03:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Crazy, that’s awesome. When I first saw, I saw a post about you when you were on Jaco’s podcast and I was like, oh my gosh, I got to get Bobby on the show because this is just. This is so cool to hear a guy that was in the seals, just like the rest of us. This game boggles our minds, completely right, and it’s so frustrating, it’s so hard and I could only imagine that you as an elite level operator coming into something. It’s just this little white ball sitting on a tee and all I got to do is hit it down there. That’s got to be easy, right. How frustrating was it coming into the game at that level, coming out from your background?

0:03:36 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I mean you’re hitting the nail on the head. Two weeks back at the Pebble Beach Pro-Am I’m not sure if you caught the video of Tom Brady Duffin it off the tee, I mean that says it all You’re talking about arguably one of the best competitors of our generation picks up a golf club and having a hard time. And yeah, man, it’s one of those things that I still struggle with because I want to be so much better. Unfortunately, life and business and other things get in the way and I just do what I can. But I love the challenge. I mean, that’s really what drives me is, every time you show up to the golf course is a legit opportunity that you can have your best round, and it can happen like that. Both of my best rounds were exactly like that. Never saw them come in. It’s not like my swing was in super great shape, so there’s a little bit of that kind of gambler mentality. But the chase, the hunt, yeah, I love it, man.

0:04:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So for those of the listeners that don’t know your story, don’t know the story behind Hoolie and everything, give us just a little background on you, obviously Navy Seals, but kind of tell us a little. I know you played football, so give us a little bit of that. And about some of the tours, how many tours you went on, and then we’ll dive into where Hoolie came from and go from there.

0:04:58 – Bobby Holland
Sure, I’m a California kid, born and raised up in a place called Fresno, Actually lived in Clovis that’s the same hometown as Bryce and DeChambeau, by the way but yeah, just kind of a wiry kid, you know. You’d like to mix it up a little bit. I played football and in wrestling. Those were my two big sports up until high school and then I was all in on football and that was just a big part of my upbringing as an athlete and it’s where I got into fitness in general. So I mean, we started strength training, powerlifting back there in high school and I’ve been doing that ever since, so kind of grew love for that as well. Well, anyways, I found myself at the end of high school the big so what that most of us face. What am I doing now? And I didn’t quite have it figured out, I went, Peter, around in a community college for a couple of years and it was in that time that I, you know, the idea of becoming a SEAL came to be and I basically devoted the next 18 months of two years to train to be a SEAL and that was like the first time I had, you know, set a goal really, and it was quite a lofty goal, had to teach myself how to run, swim, all those things. I ended up joining the Navy in January 2000 and went straight in, went to boot camp, went to A school, which is like your specialty rating, and then I went to Buds, which is the SEAL selection course, and then got through 9-11, hit and then I graduated SEAL qualification training two months later and then went to my first SEAL team and from there I just did a bunch of deployments, was pretty active. I did I think 9 deployments total. Not all of them were combat sandbox deployments, but did a bunch. Did 5 to Iraq, did a really really short one to Afghanistan, bounced around some other parts of the world, but had a really good career. Like you know, good timing. Some people may disagree but I came in the SEAL teams to do that job and you know, right after 9-11, we were busy last two decades, pretty damn busy. And yeah, we were talking before the show started.

You know about picking up golf about 12, 13 years ago and kind of wasn’t meant to be. It was one of those things that I didn’t have an aversion to golf, I just didn’t get it. Yeah, you know what I mean. I mean that was it. I was cut from this cloth. I like hardcore music, I like punk rock, I like in the gym, I like doing things pushing myself. I just didn’t get it.

And we had an opportunity. We were actually waiting to deploy. One of the guys suggested hey, let’s take the boys out. We had some time like our deployment got delayed, so we went out and I mean it literally happened in the course of I’m sure it was a god-awful long round of a five-hour round. I fell in love with golf. I hit a couple of shots out there and it was just perplexed Like you know why can’t I do this every time Went, got clubs and then it just metastasized from there, you know.

So I was halfway into my career, being at SEAL, still operating, doing all the stuff. How do you make this work? But yeah, I traveled with my golf clubs everywhere, took them on some combat deployments. One deployment wasn’t in the combat zone but it was in the Middle East. We had this compound, this giant like moon dust compound, huge, open. Well, I ended up building myself a range there. So I got like a some plywood and I built a platform like in the middle of nowhere basically, and I brought 300 range balls with me that a golf course was nice enough to donate and I would just go. Anytime I had some off time I’d go hit in my range, you know. But yeah, so you know, fast forward.

Some some years later did another decade or so in the teams and then found myself you know, my time in the teams. It just basically expired. I was at the end of my career, you know, around the 15 year mark. I transitioned from what we call an operator, which is someone who’s in a SEAL platoon being deployed to do SEAL missions. I got pulled from that and basically was in various managerial leadership positions, running training et cetera. So did that for the latter part of my career and then was trying to find something to do. Really, I mean, that’s that’s where I found myself. I knew it was my time to get out and I ended up going to business school.

Ucla has a executive MBA program, so had some buddies who had gone through that and said really great things and I thought that would be a good kind of you know, runway out of the teams into real life. So went to that and or started that, I should say and near the start of that program I had the epiphany for what would become Hoolie, because it wasn’t exactly what it looks like now, but I had an idea and I brought it up. It was a concept that I brought up during a. Basically, they have an entrepreneurial pipeline, a series of classes that you take either you have to join a team or you have to build a team. So I said, to hell with it, man, let’s, let’s give it a go, see what I can do. So I had to recruit my team, had to pitch the idea to them, and then basically, we took it through a series of classes and kind of graduated from one class to the next, end up being our capstone.

And then, by the end of it and I should back up, this is where I met my partner, Kevin Lee. He’s got a background in apparel, garment, sourcing operations, so perfect fit for where we are. But yeah, we, we basically built Hoolie in business school, you know, out of a shared passion for golf and in wanting to do cool things and and to create fun stuff, man. So, you know, fast forward another year. We launched last April. And here we are, man, some ten months later, you know, first year in business. Yeah, man, kind of ran through that pretty fast but uh.

0:12:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, there’s so many jumping off points that we’re gonna dive into. And you know most people they say like their golf addicted or they’re addicted to the game. But but you literally took your clubs on combat missions, you built it, you built your own personal driving range Overseas. You brought bucket, a bucket of balls. So like then I assumed you had to then go pick up, go shag those golf balls and bring them back and topple.

0:12:31 – Bobby Holland
Amazing moon dust dude. So like I would be wearing these combat boots Because that stuff was like all over. Yeah, it was. I did not come back with 300 balls.

0:12:41 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I probably came back with, you know, 30 by the end of it now Did other guys like start to catch on with you and like, hey, bobby, can I go hit hit balls at your range? Or like, was it just you, you?

0:12:51 – Bobby Holland
know it started that way. Well, when, when we first picked up golf, like a lot of us picked it up and it slowly, you know, they they kind of lost their interest, a lot of them. I continued that, but no, I was solo on that deployment. I was in a a staff position essentially, so I was. I was in staff hell some of the time. I would basically get out of the joint operation center and just to clear my mind and and, and, just you know, tried to stay in touch with golf because, you know, when I picked up golf, I ended up doing another Five deployments.

These deployments can range in time. Some are pretty short. Yeah, I did a couple that were two or three months, but I did some that were seven months. So it’s a long, long ways to, or long, long time to be away from the game, especially when you’re trying to pick it up and you’re trying to build that momentum and all that like. So, yeah, I had a decade worth of like, making progress, making progress and then losing all that and then starting Rebuilding and it wasn’t until I had some stability in my job Around 2017 that I was actually able to to practice and to play pretty regularly and, and and. Then I mean shocker. I got like a lot better yeah.

0:14:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah. I want to go back a little bit to to when you Were kind of transitioning and decided to go into the seals. Is that something, what made you even Decide to pick that path? And when you do like, do you decide then like, as you’re going in, like I’m shooting for the seals, or is it once, once you get through like the initial initial boot camp, that you then decide to go that direction?

0:14:39 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I think it’s true. I mean it’s basically true today, as it was back then. But essentially my path was well, there’s one slight difference. My path was directly to the teams or to seal selection training buds. I had a ticket that was written in my contract. I did have to go to a, a you know school to. Basically, back then they used to give you a regular and I don’t mean this like in a bad way a regular Navy job, like there’s plenty of Navy jobs out there. Back in the day you had to have a Navy job in case that you don’t make it through seal training, you’d have something to fall back on. That has since changed. So now people can go basically to boot camp and then go straight to selection training. But yeah, for me, you know I Was raised on action movies, you know I it sounds silly as hell.

You know a lot of people have this epiphany that, of course, like these, you know, wanting to serve, wanting to be on an, on the lead team. But I’m just, you know, a fan of action movies and just intrigued by the military in general. And you know I started looking into that. You know, obviously the military isn’t Isn’t 80s action movies, but nonetheless, you know that that took me down the path to start checking it out and looking into it, and the more I looked into it I was just really intrigued by it, you know.

So back then, post Vietnam, there had been a couple conflicts, but it was just kind of clandestine missions and and working with, you know, in elite group of highly trained individuals, you know, being on that type of team, especially playing team sports, was very attractive to me. And again, I’m a young man in my early 20s, like what else am I doing? I Didn’t have some other path that I was like weighing my options. I’m sure I would have figured something out, but it seemed intriguing, seemed exciting. I was looking for a little bit of action man.

0:16:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So there we go, yeah complete side note, but have you watched the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix by chance? Yeah, that, the second portion, when they go back to all the 80s action movies, it like just brings back such a good feeling of you know, just watching him. And Sylvester Stallone is like the movie Predator and you know Cobra and all those movies. So when you said that it just brought flashbacks of that, it made me feel so good to watch. Those dude brought me back to the childhood Dude that.

0:17:20 – Bobby Holland
That’s it, man. I mean, you know they used to say he view will rot your brain. Well, I mean, if this may be a case where rot in my brain, but hopefully in a good way, where I was a productive member of society, in the military, you know awesome.

0:17:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So Then, when you are getting ready to go to the seals, you said you trained for 18 months or beyond. How did you even know what to train for, how to train? I know these days I think there’s actually like training programs built for you know if you want to be a seal, but I’m assuming back then there probably weren’t no, it was still at the early I say the early stages of the internet.

0:17:57 – Bobby Holland
But, like my awareness of the internet, I guess it started, you know, 80s or early 90s, but People weren’t really using that like they do today until the early 2000s, you know late 90s. So late 90s is when I was starting to train and, no, there wasn’t a whole lot of information out there. So there were a couple books. I picked up a couple books and that was kind of it, you know. So I had an understanding they had published what the requirements were for buds training. So it’s like you know what the run times are, you know what the swim times are, you know what the pull-ups are, you know what the test gates are. To a certain degree, you know that there’s a 50 meter underwater swim, you know that there’s a drown proofing evolution. So it’s like, okay, I will just go do those things in abundance until I feel super, super confident about it. And so when I was saying before, this was my first time, you know, making a goal and achieving it, this was also my first time building a fitness plan, you know, because to this point I had done what was prescribed to me during training. You know football, wrestling, what you know, right, Whatever that is but being able to figure this out.

So I ended up doing, you know, I we were running close to 30 miles a week and we built up to it. So we started doing three miles at a time, three became four and then we were doing six miles a day, doing a lot of overtraining too as well, but I was also doing a lot of calisthenics, so a lot of push-ups, a lot of pull-ups, a lot of body weight stuff and then a lot of water stuff. You know we were doing just swimming, just god-awful swimming. One of the strokes that that they mandate for seal training is called the side stroke or the combat side stroke, and it’s, it’s super boring. Had to learn that and I would swim for two miles in a you know 50 meter pool, which, oh, it’s awful.

0:19:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What’s, what is that, sir like? Can you describe that stroke to us?

0:19:59 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, it’s uh. I mean, you know, basically you’re on your side and so what you’re doing is you’re Basically gliding through the water. It’s it’s meant for to be able to swim someone out, Like a bloody, like if there’s a.

You’re trying to swim out of a combat situation. You can, you can tow your buddy and basically swim one-handed, but essentially you’re you’re kind of swimming on your side and you’re just reaching, gliding through and basically trying to do it. You know, in a way, that your, your head is just barely Coming up, your mouth is just basically barely surfacing above the water, because the more that your head’s upright, the more drag that you’re creating. So you know you’re trying to glide through there. It’s a very effective stroke. I mean, I I Don’t swim that often but I could go, do you know I I could go crank out a long swim right now, just because that is a pretty efficient stroke that you can just do for a long time. But yeah, I had to teach myself that.

And then, you know, had to get into all the other stuff the breath holding stuff, the, the underwater swims, the not tying, all those things and really there wasn’t a whole. I mean, if there was YouTube this would have been so much easier, because it’s like now on YouTube there’s all this stuff about breath holding techniques. You know how to get that heart rate down. You could just watch free divers, watch what they do. Yeah, this guy’s got it made. They got all the information. But yeah, you know was one of those things that I Didn’t do it perfect, but I did a lot of what I did and I was in damn good shape and I was very, very much prepared for for buzz training. So mission accomplished there.

0:21:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So let me ask you this obviously, with YouTube, we can watch and learn anything on YouTube. Now, right, and there’s so much more information. Guys and girls can go and learn a lot more about what, what the techniques are. But then and I heard this on when you’re on Jaco’s podcast and talking about like, you can have all the information, you can have all the techniques. But going into buds is different. Like being able to get through buds, I guess it requires way more than just knowing techniques and stuff. So what would you say is the differentiator between the guys that make it through and the guys that don’t make it through?

0:22:28 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s not fitness level, I mean, it’s all. It’s all in between the years and it is. It’s a Grid and resilience. That’s what it is, you don’t know. There’s tall, skinny guys, there’s short, fat guys, there’s everything in between. There’s these stilly-eyed beast You’re like that that dudes for sure gonna make it through and equates day one one. So like you can’t tell just by looking at someone and really and you can’t tell by talking to someone, because I’ve also been on the instructor side you have to put them through this crucible and you know you have guys who had some troubled childhoods and then you have guys who are elite athletes and everything in between. But I think all bring a certain amount of grit and resilience that Is baked into them. Either they were born with it or they developed it, you know, prior to coming to the teams. But yeah, that’s it, man. I mean, if you can imagine Having the worst day of your life, every single day, I mean that that is what, that is what gets people, because that’s what buds is.

You were having the worst day your life and it’s even worse than the day was yesterday, and At the end of the day you get to go back to your, your barracks. You get to eat, you know dinner, and hang out for a little bit at least early on training, before you’re doing other tactical type stuff, and Then you just sit there in your bed thinking like I’m gonna have the worst day of my life tomorrow, you know, oh, my god, yeah, and that lasts for six, seven months of that. So I mean it’s kind of that mental torture of and you know, please don’t don’t focus on the word torture there. Buzz training is not tortured, but there is that mental component which is torturous, I should say of like man, how am I gonna get through this program? And the old adage how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time? And that’s it, these things.

And one thing I hope that I get to do more of is talk about mindset. I think that’s one thing that we can contribute. We’re not the only ones who share this mindset, but that’s it, man. I mean it’s been able to have this relentless optimism that I’m going to get through whatever comes next. I just know I am, I know it’s going to suck, I know it’s going to hurt. I’m going to try to find a way to make it fun or do whatever I got to do to get through it.

Some people can’t do that, these people who are over-programmed they’re excellent runners, excellent swimmers, elite athletes coming into the program. They’ve never been pushed that far and they can’t get through that mental component of being able to reconcile like, oh my God, I’m having the worst day of my life and it’s just going to keep going like this. Not only the worst day of your life, but it gets progressively harder in terms of the things that you’re tasked to do. You’re constantly having to do more and more and more. Aside from the mindset part of it, going through seal training and career in the seal teams also taught me how to take on goals and other things In a similar manner of you can’t run a marathon overnight.

It’s not like I can just turn that on and all right, I’m going to run a marathon tomorrow. No, but you know what you can train today. There’s a methodical way to train to develop the strength, the endurance, the confidence and to get yourself there. That’s essentially what seal training is is. I mean, we start people would laugh man like for where we end up and we’re talking like tactical training, where we’re busting into rooms and firing off rounds within close proximity inches of each other, highly, extremely dangerous and making life and death decisions. All in a split second. We get there from training I mean this really progressive training pipeline to where you take off these little bites of the elephant and then one day you end up there and you look back and it’s like man, how did I get here?

0:27:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s unbelievable. I mean just hearing some of the stories that you guys talked about on the podcast that I listened to and, obviously, just watching different theatrical portrayments of what you guys do, and just to think about the training that you go through. Now, refresh my memory, were you in the documentary that they did? Did I hear you guys talking about that? So for those of you that haven’t seen anything about Bud’s training, there are videos and documentaries that you can go watch, and I heard that you were even kind of like a mis-portrait in one of the scenes. Is that right?

0:27:50 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I definitely was and I make sure that every opportunity I can to clear my good name because I was very proud of in second phase. Second phase is the water competency phase and I believe it was two months back then. But there’s a series of grueling underwater challenges that you basically do where you’re threatening yourself to drown underwater. I mean, that’s basically just it. You’re doing things that are beyond your ability to without error. How long can you survive underwater, given this challenge here? So I was very proud that all those I think there were seven different tests that we did I passed all those the first time. So I was the first time. Every time guy. But yeah, you know it is what it is. They got someone else failing in evolution, but it’s all. Just man, I really don’t care. I think it’s funny, but I do give that guy shit every time I see him. That’s awesome.

0:28:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
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So be sure to go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18 strong to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So again, go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18 strong. So let’s talk about the name Hoolie and your role, and I mean I only know a little bit. So, from what I understand, you were a breacher, and that’s kind of where the name Hoolie came from, right.

0:30:13 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, that’s it. So you know, I’m getting ready to start business school and I had this epiphany. It actually started out as a golf bag, so it was this idea for a golf bag. Within that, basically, I had the idea. I spent a whole weekend ideating and drawing on it but within that like five hour period I had come up with the name already a variation of the name, but I like the way that Hoolie sounded and, yes, like to backup, Hoolie is. It’s a tool that we use.

I was a breacher. It was my job to basically gain access into enemy compounds. So using explosives, torches, mechanical tools, manual tools, Hoolie tools, basically this giant pry bar thing. Firemen use a halogen tool, Hoolie tools kind of a bastardized version of that, but it’s just normally looking crowbar thing and you know backing up before we even get to. You know the symbolism of that. It was just the name. I was like man, it just sounds kind of cool.

I wanted something that connected my prior background and then something that you know connected to golf and I didn’t imagine that there would be any connection there, but I liked how it sounded. You know, and in terms of the symbolism, it’s this tool that we’re using to break open doors, to break through something being disruptive. You know I like that. And then I ended up researching the word and, lo and behold, Hoolie is an obscure Scottish golf term that means blown a strong wind. So and I got to go to Scotland last spring and I was really nervous because you read things on the internet but I was able to confirm. I was like like hey, what does Hoolie mean to you? And sure enough, man, that’s, that’s a phrase that they use in the old country and that’s the symbolism. Is just it married? I thought it was perfect and that’s how Hoolie was born.

0:32:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So earlier you mentioned you know we were talking about getting through buds and you mentioned that getting through buds it’s grit, resilience, and that’s something that I wrote down from your website specifically is like the Hoolie golfer. It’s something that believes that hard work, grit and resilience will conquer all. So give us a little bit more about you know. Who is the Hoolie golfer? What, what is that ethos, what’s that mantra and who? Who is it?

0:32:49 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, so we are a golf brand for hardcore golfers, ok, you know, maybe folks that don’t fit into the cookie cutter mold of what you know a traditional golfer is, you know, although golf has changed a lot last couple of years so you have a lot of other different types of personalities out there. But, you know, I mean really Hoolie is for minibaction, growth minded folks who are competitive about life, who like to get after it off the course as much as they do on the course, you know. So, basically, guys, you know, I don’t, I don’t see like myself in that, like, ok, how many Navy SEAL golfers are there? But there’s a lot of guys like me out there, you know, whether they’re gym rats, athletes, former athletes, hunters, fighters, surfers, these guys who are passionate about, you know, conquering life and they’re equally passionate about conquering golf. So it’s people who are essentially in the hunt, trying to find the best versions of themselves, trying to try to find that on the golf course and trying to find that off the golf course.

And you know, one of the things that I love about golf, which is it’s sneaky, like you know, backing up to our earlier conversation, I didn’t get golf, you know, 20, 30 years ago. But when I got it it’s like, oh man, there’s so many parallels to all the things that I was doing, you know, as a SEAL in terms of being able to master your mind, your body, the environment, your strategy involved. Let’s talk about the golf swing. You know the intricacies there of the golf swing. You know kinematic sequence and all these fun things. But, yeah, man, that’s, you know, that’s really the spirit of the brand, and I also want to caution anytime I’m talking about who these now is. We have truly customers who are, you know, every walk of life. So I think it’s more of a shared mindset than it is a particular background. Yeah, people who have a certain spirit and, you know, just like to get after it, I guess.

0:35:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s what really drew me to you guys is, first, just the idea and the mindset of you know this is about more than just lowering your handicap or you know, like, how far you can hit a ball although watching some of your videos looks like you can hit a ball quite far Never know. But you know it’s about the mentality of going out, having a great time with your buddies, telling to your best you want to be the best at whatever you do physically, mentally. I’m curious just from the mental side of things, because golf is such a mental game and we kind of can make ourselves crazy about it. But obviously you guys are known for your performance under pressure. What are there any techniques that you could relay to us that you go through when you’re out on the course and maybe something’s a little frustrating you hit a bad shot and you’re trying to get yourself focused and back in the game.

0:36:03 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I think box breathing is huge. So being able to, you know, reduce your sympathetic response, and that literally just means getting your heart rate down. You know one thing I love all these fitness tracker tools and so you know I have a fitness watch and that’s a great indicator I could look down and I know what my resting heart rate is, I know what my, like, active heart rate is and you know, being able to breathe, being able to get that heart rate down and control that kind of at will is extremely helpful. Because, look man, this may surprise people, but I get nervous on the golf course, like when I’m on the first tee. You bet your ass I’m nervous. I got the little barflies. I don’t want to. You know, I’m just as likely to shank a ball as anyone, you know, as the next guy out there. It happens. So being able to do that, that’s key. I mean, breathing is really, really important there.

The other thing, from a mindset perspective, is just trying to approach it like like I don’t care what happens, I don’t care about the outcome, and that was something that I used, I mean, in, you know, being a seal all the time, right, so like we do things to where obviously, the more you do like like jumping out of an airplane, the more, the more you do that, the more you get comfortable with that.

But yeah, especially when you’re new to that, the thought of jumping out of an airplane can be quite a nerve in, right. Yeah, but finding these little kind of mental tools that you can dig into for, you know, a variety of things whether you’re on the golf course or off the golf course, are useful. That’s. That’s kind of one of the things that you know. Just trying to take the, you know, the result. Try to take don’t worry about the result because you can’t control the result. Control your controlables and whatever is going to happen is going to happen out there, right, and you know, I think having a positive mindset and not focusing about the negative outcomes would help out a lot of people and any major swing issues that folks have, such as myself.

0:38:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What about the physical side? Obviously you’re still very fit and that’s a big part of your life, I’m assuming. I would also imagine you’ve got some, some issues being banged up and injuries that you’ve, you know, gotten over the years, whether that be in football or combat or whatever it is. How big of a role does that still play in your everyday life and and for your golf?

0:38:48 – Bobby Holland
It’s huge, yeah, and I, you know, I’m starting to evolve how I train and a lot of that is a product of a. I think I’d mentioned to you I went through a program this last month to address some of those injuries and things that I’ve accumulated over two decades of not only being a seal which is a pretty damn hard job, especially carrying heavy loads, jumping out planes, injured landings, you know, running, gunning, falling down, whatever, but being an athlete for that long Fitness has been. I fell in love with fitness, you know, back in when I started sports and it just never stopped. So, absent my love for golf, I would still be doing that and it has proven to me time and time again to be extremely, you know, beneficial to you know, I mean just your mental state of mind and avoiding illness, injury, et cetera, but so extremely important.

I am having to evolve how I do things. But yeah, man, you know, in terms of how, how I think it benefits golf, I’m really excited about the program I’m starting right now, to be honest with you, because the last couple of years I’ve been training in a very linear way fitness, like basically doing straight up power lifting moves, squat, you know, pressing pulls basic stuff squat bench you know, very linear and I have been throwing in a little bit of golf things here or there, but you know, nonetheless, I think having having a natural ability to summon power right through power lifting, I think it’s helpful in all things and of course it is helpful in the golf swing if you know how to harness it. But you can look at some of the golfers out there who are skinny little beans, who do it a much different way.

So you know it’s more important to have the right technique and and to have the right mobility and flexibility, and that that’s an area where I’m just starting with this new program. So, to back up, I’ve dealt with a whole host of injuries and I won’t spend much time talking about them because I could go on and on. But you know my shoulders are jacked. You know my knees I’ve had multiple knee surgeries. My back looks like an S, like my spine, you know. So, despite all this stuff, fitness has allowed me to be extremely active and to keep pain at bay. Right, and I really attribute that because I’ve had periods like man, circa 2022, I couldn’t lift anything overhead. I could not lift a bar overhead. I could not bench press, which has been like my favorite exercise since, since youth, but I was able to build up all last year. I was. I really wanted to just fight through it. I was doing physical therapy, but I was determined to build strength. I ended up putting on some weight, so I’m a little bit heavier. When you say I’m, I’m a fit guy Thank you for the compliment. I’m relatively fit. I got some work to do. I got some goals. I’m on a good track now to get better, but mission accomplished last year. My strength like went like really you know really well, and I got through you know that issue I was having there. I went from like 20% to like 90% with shoulders, same with with me. So I’m in a good spot.

But what I’m really excited to be doing now, and where my fitness is evolving, is I’m doing a lot of rotational stuff, mobility stuff and trying to get more function, range, emotion out of my hips, out of my shoulders. So I’m really excited. My golf swing I golfed this morning. It’s kind of a mess because a lot of this work I did through this. The Warrior Fitness program is a month long program that I just went through. It’s a ran by the or sponsored by the Navy Seal Foundation, run by a group called Virginia High Performance. It’s an outstanding program for spec war veterans but basically it’s a holistic approach to diet, nutrition, mental health. It’s like full optimization there, went through that, was able to regain some mobility and function through that program and I’m going to keep working on that. I’m really excited Now, now that I’m able to rotate more and do some other things. I’ve got to figure out how how my new swing is going to work, you know.

0:43:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s interesting. So you actually have seen so much improvement in some of your mobility that you’re noticing that, hey, my golf swing is almost a little loosey-goosey now.

0:43:54 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a little bit. I have some things I’m trying to work out on my swing, but I’ve got some improvement with my hips and my kind of pelvic rotation. There and my right shoulder we made a lot of ground. It was, you know, again like I’ve been moving very linear, but you put, you know, certain parts of my body in awkward positions and I lack mobility. So I think some of the swing faults that I have right now are really really because of some of these deficiencies that I have. I’m unable to rotate in such a way that I have to compensate with my arms or whatever.

So, tbd, man, we’ll see how it goes. Hopefully it’s not a train wreck for too long. But you know, I look forward to starting that out. But, man, I just feel better. You know, you kind of don’t know, especially as you age, sometimes the decline or the lack of mobility, it just kind of slowly tapers off. And it wasn’t until, you know, we’ve been doing a lot of back and core work, manual therapy, cairo type stuff, and then mobility exercises, and it wasn’t until I did about two weeks of that that I’m moving around. What the? It feels good. You know, it’s not like I was walking around like the hunchback and Notre Dame. You know I didn’t feel that bad, but I didn’t know what good felt like either.

0:45:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. So you and I talked a couple of days ago and we were talking about the Rotex motion stuff. Were you introduced to them through Virginia High Performance or was that? Did you meet Dr Joe separate?

0:45:34 – Bobby Holland
I met Dr Joe separate, yeah. Yeah, one of the cool things I’ve been surprised by social media and one of the pleasant surprises has been I’ve been connected with some really, really neat people and people that just reached out, that found the brand and you know much like you did. And Joe was the same. You know he’s. He’s a old retired frogman so and we actually served in the same SEAL team not the same time, different times, but great guy, he reached out and fully support what he’s doing. He’s doing some really neat stuff there. I just started the Rotex program, really excited for that, to augment the program that I’m already working on. But, yeah, go check them out at, you know, rotexmotioncom Great products there.

0:46:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, so, and we love, we love Dr Joe and the Rotex. I’ve got one sitting right outside the door here was just using it with the client this morning. So just give us a little idea. How are you using it? What, what are you guys working on, or what did he kind of go through with you a little bit?

0:46:30 – Bobby Holland
You know, I’m just using their app, so you go through their app and they have. So what I’m working on? The there’s a shoulder mobility set of exercises there, and then also I don’t remember what the other one is called, but you know, basically the rotational stuff, the kind of hips, pelvic type stuff, so that that is the kind of floor, floor based stuff or the floor models and the. Yeah, there’s just some great exercise man, like I love the handheld one. There’s some really cool stretches being able to, you know, internal rotation, I guess it is.

0:47:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, yeah, getting getting an external rotation where you kind of like kind of going in up on the wall like that.

0:47:19 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, there’s some there’s some really good ones there. So the program that that I I got out of the Warrior Fitness program has some other stuff in there, you know, non-rotex type stuff, and I think it’s really good compliment. And again, man, I just just started this program but I’m, I’m like, really excited. You know, I have a garage gym which I’ve carefully, you know, built over the last 12, 13 years I guess. So I have everything that I need here.

But I’ve been working out with a new, renewed sense of purpose and energy of you know, doing doing something fun and new, and it just feels good, man, I can feel that I’m activating things that had been neglected for too long. And yeah, you know, it’s like I’m really strong at squats and bench and pressing. But these other things, you know, I think for longevity and just for all around fitness and mobility are pretty damn important and there’s huge crossover. So, aside from, obviously, the benefits I get from my daily life, I’m now doing things that I know are going to have an impact the rotational stuff, the core stuff. Yeah, pretty psyched on it.

0:48:32 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and to be able to do it for that’s the coolest thing about golf to do it for decades. Right Like this. This is a. This is a long gameplay.

0:48:41 – Bobby Holland
Well, there’s no doubt in my mind, like my best golf is is ahead of me, and I’ve there’s plenty of. You know, guys, that I’ve seen staying plenty fit into their fifties. So, and, and you know, look at Phil Mickelsand he’s been able to keep up speed. So you know, if you can keep up strength speed, you can play. You know, I’m not going to play at an elite level, but I can play with enough swing speed to play the type of golf that I enjoy playing, and fitness is the path to get there.

0:49:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. So what’s on the horizon for Hoolie as you’re moving, you know we’re getting into 2024 and moving forward. I mean, it sounds like things are cranking and you’re you’re busy, as can be. So what’s? What’s going on over there?

0:49:23 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, you know we are cranking man, but we are still a first year business. We’re still relatively new, um, you know we’re not a known entity nationally yet. So the goal is to just get the message out and, uh, get more people to fall in love with us. And you know our goal, aside from selling stuff, is to create this community of like-minded you know, golf obsessed, gross minded folks out there. I’d like to get after it and you know we’re looking to get the message out there more. You know doing, doing, uh, shows like yourself, um, continue to push the brand out there, um, get more traction where we can. And to continue to grow and to, you know, expand our, our product lines. Um, that’s it, man. You know just kind of doing what we’re doing, more of it. And again, like just very optimistic because you know we’ve reached a lot of people, um, a lot more than I thought we would in the first year, but we’re just getting started here. So, like so much room to go.

And, um, we have a new spring line that comes out here in a couple of weeks, excited to launch that. We got some really, really neat designs. I’m wearing one of them right now. Um, so really cool there and it’s a. You know, that’s one thing that I’m very passionate about is creating stuff. So, uh, we have a great designer, um, kevin give a quick shout out to to Kevin there who helps us out. Um, but you know, we we also I have a creative interest in in what we do and what we make, and so being able to think of these new things and and watch people fall in love with like it’s just a really neat thing to do, um kind of scratches my creative ish as well. Uh, so we got some fun stuff to launch here and I think people are going to love it and we’ll just see where it goes. Man, yeah.

0:51:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What would you say is something that you’ve taken from your your time as a CEO and just all of your training that has really helped you from the business aspect of things.

0:51:25 – Bobby Holland
I think what we were talking about earlier, that grit and resilience, is key. There’s a lot of parallels to my career as a special operator, to what I’m doing now. If you look at, I’m in a ambiguous environment, you know. Maybe Don’s are stacked against me. Um, you know, over task, under resourced. That’s what every startup, uh, you know, experiencing the same thing. Right, how do we figure out this problem? How do we get better from our mistakes? How do we develop capacity to do more? Um, I mean, they’re all parallels. It’s the same thing, it’s a different environment, it’s a different application.

That’s part of why I fell in love with this whole thing. I I didn’t see myself as being an entrepreneur, but I had this idea and I had this kind of creative itch. I started scratching that and then then I started recognizing like, oh man, this isn’t really that much different, you know. So, for, for the veterans listening out there, you know, I I think you’ll get a lot of entrepreneurship. It’s not easy, it’s very challenging, it’s very rewarding. Um, and then backing up, talking about the grit, resilience aspect of it is not every day is easy. You know it’s. Uh, there’s ups and downs. You know when, if you’re a new business, new business. You are going to make mistakes, things are going to happen. You’re going to have to overcome If. If you can’t get through that, you just won’t survive. So, yeah, it’s all about overcoming those mistakes, getting better, improving and then, you know, just kind of head down, chin up, get after it.

0:53:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You mentioned. You know, speaking to the veterans, I know you guys do a lot of work, or you personally do a lot of work with veterans with golf, and there’s a crossover there that and I’ve seen this with several different organizations that are utilizing golf to help veterans, whether they be wounded vets or just, you know, re-acclimating into society. What have you seen? What kind of positive benefits have you seen from golf that has really helped that population.

0:53:31 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, you know, and this is an area where I would continue to love to do more. I mean, like I’m very passionate about golf and very passionate about the veteran community. I think, you know, one of the things that I hope to do out of all this is to get more veterans into golf. You know, whether they’re, you know, veterans who moved on from service, who are looking for something to engage with, or they’re you know the wounded veteran population, there’s so much to get from the game.

I think one thing that veterans struggle with in general is finding purpose after service right, and purpose comes in many different forms, obviously in the form of a career, having some sort of purpose that you can connect. You know that’s. You serve your country and you do so for however many years you serve, and then you leave that some struggle with. You know what’s next. How do I replace that feeling that I had of service of purpose? And though I don’t have that answer in terms of career-wise, everyone’s different there I think golf serves this little niche here. You know, I’m not saying golf is a purpose, but it’s like a micro-purpose. You know what I mean.

0:54:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Like it’s a reason.

0:54:55 – Bobby Holland
it’s something that gets you excited to get out of bed. It’s something that gets you excited to go outdoors, to go hang out with your buddies, to have this very difficult goal that you want to work towards, that you can improve, and that it’s just it’s going to be there for the rest of your life. I didn’t golf with these two gentlemen this morning, but I often get paired with these older gentlemen that are in their 80s and 90s, you know. So there’s this just love and spear for the game that I think veterans, you know more than others, would really benefit from. And aside from that, I think the therapeutic benefits of just being outdoors I think I golf early in the morning, so that’s a whole different experience.

Like this morning we saw coyotes, you know. We saw deer, it’s beautiful. We saw the sunrise. Like it’s calming. I know saying calming and golf in the same phrase and get people riled up, but I mean for me it’s a. I never really thought about it, you know, over the years I was doing it until now, but it’s kind of like therapy out there, especially if you’re out there, you’re playing, walking on a course, you know, just squeezing it in out there. It’s good man. So, yeah, I would love to connect veterans to golf. Hopefully we can do that in the process and, as we grow the company definitely look forward to partnering with more of the folks that are, you know, doing that as well.

0:56:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. I just think that that’s such a neat objective and you see so many different organizations that are doing it and I’ve seen a couple of things that you guys have done and alluded to and, yeah, it’s just such a such an incredible game. There’s so many benefits. Like you said, it’s out in nature, You’re. You’re kind of fulfilling your competitive spirit, all these different pieces, and you’re constantly challenging yourself, you know, trying to get better. So that’s really cool. All right, my man, we’re going to close up with just a few of our traditional questions that we have here on the 18 strong podcast. Very curious to hear your answers. What’s in foremost? Caddy shack or happy Gilmore?

0:57:15 – Bobby Holland
Hey, both classics, but happy Gilmore. Oh, all right, All right, I was kind of expecting you to go the other way, tristan all right, what’s like, like, like if there was split with you know what percentage of people vote which way.

0:57:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’m going to say it’s been. I don’t have an official tally. I would say it’s been mostly more caddy shack than happy Gilmore. I find that a lot of our guests who come from overseas across the pond are more happy Gilmore than a lot of the Americans and I typically find that if if anybody’s around my age and beyond, they’re usually usually cat caddy shack. So I’m 45. So it can be shot. But happy Gilmore, I love both of them. Love both of them All. Right, this one. I’m very curious to hear your answer. What would your walk up song be to the first T box?

0:58:09 – Bobby Holland
Domination Pantera, not even a question.

0:58:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Oh man, going hard, I like it. I like it. Is there a book that you like to recommend to people, or a book that has really meant something to you, that you’ve read or read multiple times and have even given as a gift?

0:58:23 – Bobby Holland
Absolutely it is. It’s called endurance and I think it’s a I’m not sure if there’s like a a different part shackled in is incredible voyage. I mean the book is endurance. It is my favorite book and I can’t believe they haven’t made a proper movie out of it. I think it’s the best, one of the best survival tales ever told. So those themes we were talking about, about grit, resides. It follows the 1915, shackleton expedition to Antarctica and I went to spoil it for your viewers, but some stuff goes down.

It’s a tale of survival. It’s amazing. I love it. I mean there’s, there’s a you know some stuff about leadership, teamwork, grit, resilience. So good, go read it.

0:59:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, awesome. All right, if you could pick a celebrity for some and by celebrity that’s a loose term, could be anybody past present could be dead alive. Who are you picking for your for some?

0:59:25 – Bobby Holland
All right, man, I’m a child of the eighties, right? So Arnie Sly Corussell.

0:59:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love it. I mean straight action movies, yep, awesome. All right, exclude well, I won’t. I normally say excluding Augustine and St Andrews, but you’re welcome to pick one of those. But I’ll ask you for a second one. But if we had the 18 strong jet fueled up, ready to go and I said, bobby, we’re going anywhere you want, we’re taking your celebrity for some and you get to play any course in the world, where are you going?

1:00:02 – Bobby Holland
Well, you took my number one. It’s Augustine National man. That’s it. Number two would be Piners. Number two Awesome, I’ve been very fortunate. This last spring I got to play the old course, st Andrews.

1:00:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Did you really I?

1:00:17 – Bobby Holland
did yeah and would you shoot? I didn’t shoot very well. I think I shot like a. I think it was an 89. But I had a strong finish at 17 and 18. His darkness set in. Yeah, that’s good.

1:00:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love it. Setting the scene I love it. Okay, what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given?

1:00:42 – Bobby Holland
This is a Bob Rattella quote. So damn, I don’t even remember what book it is, but it is love the challenge of the day, whatever it may bring. I think that’s very, very sound advice, that if you’re going to be a golfer, you need to embrace that, because if you’re spinning out of control every bad shot, every bad round, I mean why would you spend so much time being miserable? Right, it doesn’t help.

1:01:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yep Doesn’t help at all. Okay, is there a social media account that you like to follow that you think the 18 strong crew should check out? Could be golf related, could be anything.

1:01:23 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I’m going to give you some random stuff, all right. So on YouTube, go check out. I know you’re going to like this, jeff Space Ice, and I expect you to text me back later because after five hours of binging that you’ll be like dude, so good. The other is there was a former Navy SEAL, was it John Allen? His handle is Mr Ballin and he does spooky, weird stories on YouTube. Really really good, mr Ballin, b-a-l-l-e-n. Really good. And I’ll give a shout out to my guy, the DoD King Carter. He got bounced off of his CBA golf handle from Meta for some reason. But he is that delusional confident. He got bounced off of that. Really he did. Yeah, Not sure why, but they booted his account, they shut him down. So go check out.

1:02:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No way that’s delusional, confident Yep.

Unreal. So, just for background, that’s exactly how I found out about Bobby and Hoolie Golf is because when Bobby was on the Jocko podcast you guys talked about, I think, Jocko brought up the DoD King and then I followed him for a little bit and I saw that online. So that’s crazy that that got booted. Okay, well, we’ll definitely put that in the show notes and give him a link there. For sure, bobby, this has been awesome. I can’t thank you enough for coming on the show. I’m really excited to see what’s to come with Hoolie in the next year, two years and beyond, but I love everything that you’re doing. Obviously, thank you so much for your service, first and foremost, you and everybody that you served with. But taking that into the golf world, I just think it’s such a cool crossover and it speaks so much to the 18 Strong crew and the mindset that we have here just about self-improvement and working hard, the grit, the resilience that you speak so, so greatly about. So really really appreciate your time coming on.

Yeah, jeff thanks for having me on, man, thanks for listening to the 18 Strong podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Cody Wescott (Founder Cody Wescott Golf)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 368
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join me as I welcome Cody Wescott from Cody Wescott Golf and the Swing Heavy Lift Fast Program to the show for an insightful discussion that’s sure to up your golf game and fitness routine. We kick things off by exploring the relationship between strength training and golf performance, as Cody shares his candid take on traditional weightlifting versus golf-specific training. We dig into the essence of crafting an effective workout that balances what you enjoy and what truly benefits your game, while Cody challenges the idea of personal trainers and their impact on a golfer’s progress.

Listen in as we tackle the multifaceted nature of golf training, focusing on the harmony of mobility, strength, and power. We break down his holistic approach to athlete development, as seen in his “Lift Every Swing Fast” program, which has successfully been adopted by numerous golfers. Cody and I also touch upon the often-overlooked importance of cardiovascular health for recovery, endurance, and the enjoyment of golf well into one’s later years. The inspiring story of Tony, an 85-year-old fitness enthusiast, serves as a powerful reminder that it’s never too late to embrace an active lifestyle.

The conversation shifts to the nuances between golf exercises and drills, emphasizing the importance of selecting the right methods to enhance your game. We address how gym workouts should complement, not replace, swing drills, and the potential pitfalls of following fitness trends on social media. As we delve into muscle building and mobility, I underscore the evolution of muscle-building philosophies and the significance of nutrition in supporting both body composition and performance. Don’t miss this episode packed with practical advice and personal insights that could transform your approach to golf and fitness.

(00:04) Optimal Golf and Fitness Training

Nature’s impact on golf performance, incorporating fitness, traditional weight training, and the role of personal trainers.

(09:44) Golf Performance

Effective golf training programs include total body workouts, targeted mobility exercises, and strategic speed and power work.

(14:56) Cardiovascular Health in Golf Longevity and Performance

Cardio and resistance training in golf improve recovery, performance, and longevity, emphasizing the importance of prioritizing health in mid-life.

(18:34) Fitness for Personal Transformation

An 85-year-old man’s dedication to fitness, my sports background, and struggles with drugs and alcohol.

(29:44) Golf Training and Exercise Nuances

Golf exercises and drills have different purposes, with gym exercises complementing but not replacing them. Social media can influence fitness trends.

(38:33) Muscle Building, Mobility, and Personal Training

Nature’s muscle-building philosophy, RPE and Reps in Reserve, nutrition, golf-specific training, and maintaining muscle mass for efficient golf swing.

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0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode number 368, with Cody Wescott from Cody Wescott, golf. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe that every golfer deserves to play better, longer. And this week we have Cody Wescott from Cody Wescott Golf and the Swing Heavy Lift Fast Program. This episode is a fun one for me because this is the first time I get to meet Cody and talk about the growth that he’s had, first of all in social media in the golf and fitness world, and I think he’s one of the guys putting out some of the best content when it comes to education in the golf and fitness world and really taking a no BS attitude and laying on what’s going to make your program most optimal. Is traditional weight training? Is traditional strength training good for your golf game? Yeah, it can be, but is it optimal for what you’re wanting to do and what your goals are in the gym? So we have some great conversations about what that looks like, what you want to do, what are the things that you want to put into your program simply because you like them, and what are the things you need to put in there because they’re going to work. And then we talk about a couple topics that Cody’s been pretty hard lined on, and that’s the difference between golf exercises and golf drills. Where is that crossover and where is the separation? And are you doing golf exercises or golf drills and are they really being effective in your training program? And then, lastly, we touch on a bit of a sensitive topic for probably a lot of the listeners of this show, for those of you that are coaches and trainers. But talking to the golfers out there, cody discusses why you may not need a personal trainer and why that actually might be detracting from your goals and detracting from your results, and we go have a great conversation around that. So you’re going to really enjoy this episode of the 18STRONG Podcast.

Right after this, our partners over at Link Soul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com, slash link soul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Link Soul’s website. So again, 18strong.com. Slash link soul for our favorite brand of apparel, for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview, tony Wescott. Welcome to the 18STRONG Podcast.

0:02:49 – Cody Wescott
Hey, thanks for having me.

0:02:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, for sure, man. So this is really fun to finally get to connect with you. I’ve been following your stuff on social media for a while and one of the cool things and we just had a couple other people on recently and, I said, one of the cool things about what we do at the podcast here cool things for me is being able to connect with people like you, that I really respect the way that you’re putting your content out, the content that you’re putting out. So, first of all, just keep doing what you’re doing, because I love watching it and I learned stuff from when I’m watching your content and I know that our crew is too.

So I’m excited to have you on.

0:03:21 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, man, thank you so much. I mean the content game, social media has been such a game changer. I think you know I’ve listened to your show a few times, so I know I’m not alone when I say that Like it really has just like opened so many doors Because I’ve been doing, you know, the fitness thing for a long time and just when you consistently start posting content, like things happen for you that I never thought would happen. So it’s really cool. Like I’ve been on you know, someone’s podcast. Like you know, if you were to go, I never would have thought about this. So this is really cool.

0:03:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When did your? Is Instagram your biggest platform as far as your social media content? For sure, when did that really kind of take off for you?

0:03:57 – Cody Wescott
You know.

So I was a trainer for, like you know, 12 years before I ever like made a post about my services, right, so? But I think it was summer 2022 is when I started posting about every single day, because I was in an environment down in a gym down in Jupiter, where, like that was pretty much what everybody was doing is like that was like bigger part of our job was actually like creating social media content, and that’s when I started doing it every single day. And then I think you know, the thing is like I didn’t. It took me forever to like get up and going. I mean, I think I made. I think I posted like 90 days in a row before I got like a thousand followers, you know. So, like you know, I get like 12 likes on a post or something like that. So it was a little discouraging, but I was like you know what? Like I think it’s one of those things that you just keep trying and work hard and put out good stuff. It’s eventually going to catch on, and so that’s what I did. I just kept going, kept going, and I want to say it was probably like right around like holiday season, so probably like Thanksgiving of 2022, you know, probably like almost like six months into the thing, I got to 10,000 followers and then that’s.

I don’t know if it starts like kind of snowballing or if the algorithm like kind of catches on and people are watching your stuff and then, but that, that first 10 was super hard and then now I think we’re you know what, like 14 months later, I’m at like 70,000.

And that’s been really cool. Just because you know, when you’re a personal trainer, you are pretty limited on how many people you can work one on one with, right, or how many people you can really make a change for Cause I’ve done group fitness before too, where you’re coaching like 40, 50 people at once. But you know, as a personal trainer, if you’re super busy I mean, if you’re talking about doing 30, 40 sessions a week that is a very, very busy personal trainer, right. And you have, you know, people doing two or three sessions a week like what are you looking at? You may have? You might have like 10 to 12 to 15 clients, really right. So for me to go from that on a weekly basis, like I’m only touching like 12, 15 people, to reaching thousands has been like really gratifying and a lot of fun too.

0:06:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, when? When did you kind of shift out of the the in-person training role, cause I know you said you really just work with, I think, a single client in person. The rest is pretty much online.

0:06:15 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, it’s all on my app. Now why use trainer rogue? But you know I have my programming on their app. It’s been since I moved back to Oklahoma. I moved back here in December of 2022. I moved back here and I was still doing some zoom sessions. So I’m still doing one on one. But now, yeah, for the past like I think about 12 months I’ve had just one guy that I trained a person and the rest is I’ve got some. I’ve got people that I’ve been doing one on one programming for for years now. But now I just put all my time into creating the programming on the app.

0:06:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it looks great. We’ll be sure to link all this stuff up in the show notes as well, so you guys can go and check out the website, check out the app. You know everything, everything about looks really good. You know like it just kind of draws the eye in your content is great. As far as just really pointing out the, the no BS right, which I think is really one of the big messages that you, that you have, is like hey, don’t do the silly stuff. Here’s the way are here, here are ways for you to really get to where you want to go with your, your golf, with your fitness. And you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about, which is a message that continually goes through your content is not training the old way you used to train. You know it hasn’t gotten you where you want to go yet, so why are you continuing to do it? Expand on that a little bit.

0:07:42 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, that’s been, that’s been a topic that’s done pretty well for me lately. So you kind of catch onto things that people kind of believe in in what you’re saying more right Cause, like that is like a truly like authentic thing for me is like I have literally experienced every possible image or every type of fitness that is out there. Right, so like I feel like I can speak to that Right Like. So I’ve done CrossFit, I’ve done bodybuilding, I’ve done powerlifting, I did Spartan races, I raced high rocks. My wife used to teach yoga. I’ve done yoga. She also taught Pilates. I’ve done Pilates. Like I’ve literally we her and I co taught a boxing class together. So I mean I’ve done like pretty much everything in fitness and I’ve also ran gyms. I was a regional fitness manager in Washington DC. I ran three gyms. Like when I tell you like that I have pretty much done everything that normal people in fitness can do, like I’ve done it.

So now, like my thing is that I don’t think that any method of training is necessarily bad. Right Like. So for golf, that is like, so like I don’t think that anything that’s going to get you in better shape, like you know whether it increases your, maybe you’re doing like a orange theory. Right, it’s going to increase your endurance, you know it’s going to make you a little stronger. You know stuff like that. But any kind of workout program CrossFit, bodybuilding, whatever it is that gets you in better shape.

I think it can help the game of golf, now. What I always tell people is like is that optimal for the game of golf? And my answer for some of that stuff is no, like I don’t think that training like a bodybuilder is going to help you play your best. You know can it. Is it going to be better than you sitting on the couch every single day? And will it help you play better?

If you go train like a bodybuilder? Probably because you’re getting stronger and you get more mobile, you’re going to be pretty sore, so it might suck to go practice that next day or something. If you just wrecked your pecs or something and your chest and your shoulders. You know that might suck, but you know when you recover from that your chest is going to be stronger and more flexible and and so, yeah, that could help you play golf. But you know I’m here for getting athletes to perform at their best and I think what’s interesting about golf is that it’s a very unique game, right. It requires mobility, strength and power, and each one of those pro, whatever program you do out there might give you a little bit of one of those things. Right, but if we do a golf program, we can have it all.

0:10:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what do you feel is kind of the secret sauce of Hitting all of those boxes in a program and not going too far in one direction? Because I feel like we can definitely get into the mindset, or many of the golfers can get in the mindset, of oh, I just got to work on my mobility, or I got, I just got to work on my speed, or I’m going to get stronger, or you know how, how have you found to really tie those things together and, like you said, really become more of an athlete when you’re in the gym?

0:10:33 – Cody Wescott
Right, and you know you think about, like, could you put all that stuff into a workout? You can, right, Like it can be a long workout, but you know, yeah, and how much juice is the average person going to have at the end of a 90 minute session or something like that, right? So I think, yeah, we got to be pretty strategic about how we do it. I like to give people total body workouts, right? So, as opposed to doing a bodybuilding split and yeah, I think you know you can put in, you know, targeted mobility work that also is going to prepare you, like, you know, prime you up for the workout that you’re about to do. You can put in a few reps of like, maybe it’s a plio’s, like, you know, jumps, maybe it’s a couple of mid-ball slams. I like to do the sled, you know, whatever it is that that person has available, maybe it’s just bands, maybe they you know whatever they have available do something that’s pretty fast. And I have to do that, you know, right after your warm up, your mobility, so that where you’re touching on some speed and I don’t think you know you need to do a whole lot of it, right, like, I think speed is, you know a pretty low, low volume, right, like we’re talking like a couple of sets, you know two, three sets, one to three sets, actually, right, and then that lower rep range and then hitting a couple of our compound movements and I really try to get people to do like two to three to four sessions a week and then I’ll put in like my, like my um, in my app.

I have, like I call them our main workouts. They’re Monday, wednesday, friday, we’re going to the workouts going to be structured kind of like I just described, and then, like on Tuesdays, I have them just do like mobility and zone to cardio. Um, saturday is more of like an interval style, like hit training, so that we can kind of get it a little bit, little bit heart rate up a little bit higher, come back down, recover, um, things like that, and it’s still going to have some mobility at the beginning of that workout too. So I like to, that’s how I like to do it and it’s worked really well.

Um, and, like you know, I kind of just took it all from every facet of training I’ve ever done and like just kind of okay, like you know, it doesn’t make sense, it just makes sense, right, like once you become, when you’re a trainer and you know what’s up, it’s like okay, you can’t put this power at the end because you’re going to be dead. I don’t put mobility at the end because it’s like it can be paired with a warmup, like so you just, it just makes sense and I think it’s really worked well for me and for the um, the hundreds of athletes now that that that are on board with a lift every swing fast. So we continue to appreciate it for everyday training and what it’s like to do sport.

0:12:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love the name, by the way. Oh, it’s great. Just straight to the point, right.

0:12:51 – Cody Wescott
I got the trademark, by the way, did you really, hell yeah?

0:12:55 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Nice, you should have for sure. Yeah, for those of you that aren’t watching on YouTube, he’s got the neon sign. He’s in his podcast studio too, which he’s got the shooting straight podcast that he does with his wife, so definitely check that out. We’ll link that in the show notes as well.

0:13:08 – Cody Wescott
Appreciate that.

0:13:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
But yeah, I mean just the breakdown of that, of that. You’re right, it just seems to make sense. I like how you then have like something on Saturday too, where it almost gives them a little bit of variety too, probably as far as the conditioning stuff, how much conditioning do you think golfers need, and is that something they need? Is that something that they want? Is that something that you like to throw in there?

0:13:30 – Cody Wescott
That’s a great question. I love how you word this Something neat or something they want, right, like that’s what they come to us for, right, jeff? It’s like I’m going to tell you what you need, like, do you really want to do this? I hope so. I hope I’m going to get you to buy in and believe what I’m saying and you’re going to get excited and want to do it right, like, yeah, but yeah, so need.

I mean I love zone two cardio. That has become like my really my big thing lately is going to keep on to that heart rate zone and you know, if you’re listeners out there, you can just simply like kind of Google zone two cardio and you can quickly figure out what heart rate you need to be in to get into zone two. But golf is long, right, I mean if you’re talking, you know people don’t talk. They think that golf is, like you know, taxing, and they’re right, it’s not. It’s not. You’re not playing a football game, you’re not playing a basketball game, so it’s not taxing in that way. But yeah, you’re out there for a while, I mean if you go warm up and if it’s slow, I mean we’re talking. Like my wife says, I’m out there all day right and she’s not. She’s not wrong.

Like you know you know, right, like, if I go warm up for an hour, do my routine and just cause I like it, you know I don’t think you need warm up for an hour, but I like you know I work. I warm up in my gym first, not going to my club I putt, I chip because I just love it, um, and then you know you play and you know what. How long could you be out there? Six hours, right Easy.

You’re up there standing, walking around shipping, putting hitting drivers, like, yeah, I think endurance plays a bigger role than people probably want it to want it to be, because I don’t think people love working on their cardio and working on their uh, vo2 max and their um, aerobic conditioning and all that kind of stuff. But I think it plays a huge role and it also plays a pretty good role in in how you’re going to recover and how you’re going to perform in your own workouts. Right, Like you’re. If you’re a better condition, you know, like a, like a heavy set of squats or presses or whatever it is that you’re going to do, like it’s going to help you recover in between those sets too, um, so then you’re able to get stronger and then, um, recovery and your power. Workouts like it benefits everything.

0:15:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you know what that’s a great point that I think is overlooked is is the recovery piece of it and how that you don’t necessarily have to be conditioning yourself for the sport itself when you’re out on the golf course, and that is definitely going to help you. We we just talked to Mitch Sadoski recently talking about how golf is an explosive sport, but it’s also an endurance sport, especially if you’re a high level golf and you’re playing four days in a row. But, from the recovery aspect of during your workouts and from day to day, being in in better cardiovascular shape is absolutely going to help you improve from from set to set, from rep to rep and from tournament day to tournament day and practice session to practice session.

0:15:57 – Cody Wescott
So that’s that’s awesome and, and you know, like you know, there’s so many studies out there that prove that. You know, resistance training, cardiovascular training, are like the pillars of longevity, right, and we all want to do this living well thing for a long time and we want to play golf for a long time, Like I want to play golf when I’m a hundred, you know, like, and I think we all do so. You know, if cardiovascular health is going to help me get there, then I better do, I better be doing it.

0:16:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, it doesn’t all have to be about you know, from shot to shot, what you’re doing on the golf course, and that’s the piece that I think do myself Most of the professionals in our industry yeah, we want you to lower your handicap, we want you to swing faster, we want you to hit the ball further and straighter, but ultimately, I’d love to see you play another 10, 20, 30, 40 years and do it well too, right? Not not just be out there kind of dinking it around, but be the guy that’s out there in his seventies and eighties and people like Holy cow, can you imagine or can you believe that this guy’s out here doing it? So yeah, that’s who.

0:16:57 – Cody Wescott
I want to be right and like.

That’s who I want everyone else to be.

You know it kills me when I’m out of my club and you know I play with one guy who’s like I’m 37 and he’s like I think he’s almost 50.

He’s a pretty good shape, plays really well. And then some of the guys we play with, you know they’re they’re getting a little older, I think that you know they’re in their sixties and you know their their health is, you know they’re overweight, like their their body’s starting to break down a little bit, their back hurts and, you know, sadly, I think they think that they’re going to turn it around somewhere, right, and I’m just like it breaks my heart and I’m like, if you don’t do anything about it, right, like it’s not going to match, you’re not going to get out of a slump right now. Like you know, at 65 years old, I’m sorry, like, unless we like get you moving better and drop some weight and get you stronger and maybe make you faster, like I don’t think it’s going to go up or even plateau, right, like we’re, it’s going to start sliding back and we don’t want that, sadly.

0:17:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And yeah, and that’s a message that I wish the 35 year olds could hear and project forward right or the 25 year olds, 30, 35, 40, when we tend to get in this, this area of you know raising kids and being at a desk job or whatever your career path is, your family life is we tend to neglect those things, we tend to neglect ourselves, and then you turn into that 65 year old that is still kind of hoping that things will turn around, but it’s like no, the time is now. You got to start doing this stuff Now. Even if you start very simple, right, you start with just some mobility stuff and just getting into the gym a little bit. So that message rings true.

0:18:34 – Cody Wescott
Oh yeah, I mean I had a guy worked at a country club in Alexandria, virginia, just right across the Potomac River from Washington DC had a guy mid 80s, you know like 85 years old, his name was Tony. He came in, he worked his ass off, slammed the ball around, I got him on the TRX and did some jump squats and stuff at 85 years old and that man got out there and you know he felt better than ever and so I mean it’s not too, you know. So my message is like yeah, it’s definitely not too late, and like you know people that are around my age or even a little bit younger, like you know, it’s going to be there one day. So you know, don’t let it catch you off guard.

0:19:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, be like Tony no.

0:19:12 – Cody Wescott
Tony crushes it. Tony’s got a bitch named after him out there. He’s like oh no, bridge, not a bitch, excuse me.

0:19:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And he’s like oh yeah, when I’m gone.

0:19:19 – Cody Wescott
They’re going to tear that bridge down. I’m like no, not Tony, it’s a great bridge. Like it’s not going anywhere, I use that bridge.

0:19:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Love it.

Yeah, people use it. They can’t tear it down. We need that. Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at 1st Phorm, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post-workout protein shake.

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So what kind of sports did you play when you’re growing up. Obviously you’re very fit, obviously you’re in the fitness industry, but I assume you played some sports back in the day. And then I want to know what changed as far as your training mentality and how you’ve transitioned yourself into, because I saw on the website that you’ve really amped up your game quite a bit recently too.

0:20:52 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, so I mean, growing up I played baseball, basketball. I had a lot of, you know, I had some things happen when I was a kid, some some, some things with my family that really got me distracted For a little while. I think I had the talent, to be honest with you, to play, like you know, after high school and all that kind of stuff, but I just got distracted and I, you know, did some other things that people shouldn’t do. That was a big part of my life. I thought about that on my podcast was like I struggled with drugs and alcohol and things like that in my youth and even in my 20s, but I really found solace in the weight room, like when I was in high school. So, like you know, I’m 37, I’ve been working out since, like I was a freshman at high school. So we’re talking, like you know, 20-something years ago, right, and I just found a love for working out, right, like just lifting weights and I remember just working out with some of my buddies and I just felt it different. Like you know, as soon as I like did call it a bicycle curl for ease, right, I said, buy some curl. And they’re always like man, I can tell in your face that you feel that you know what you’re doing Like, and I just naturally figured it out. And then so I started like training them, you know, to try to get them like learn how to do this stuff.

I’d be ripping pages out and muscle fitness magazines I mean, you know, this is 27 years ago I didn’t really, I didn’t have a smartphone to have Google Like. I just went to the store and I took my ripped up muscle fitness magazines of Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman and took those into the gym. And then our winter ending coach she was like in his 80s coached a tola and he just yelled at me he’s like don’t do that, you know you’re going to break your arm, like whatever you know. So and I’d be teaching my buddies. I remember this one time I had my buddy come in and the weight room was right right outside the basketball core and I was having us do walking lunges up and down the core and my buddy I don’t know if he ever worked out again his life because he was so sore Like after that maybe he’s never worked out again, but yeah.

So I just really found you know, the weight room to be like my place and so, like I, when I was in high school, like I had some weightlifting records for my weight class, which was very light back then, because I’m only like five, six, I was like five, four back then like 120 pounds Almost. I think I almost did like a 400 pound deadlift back then I was able to do like 70 unbroken dips, like you know. It was cool stuff. So I was very, very into that back then. You know so. But then you know I didn’t like go to school for it or anything. You know I’m from Oklahoma. You know, when I I don’t remember like people like being into fitness, like you know, I went to the gym like it wasn’t a personal trainer back then there was no one. I went to the gym. The guy owned it like he would kind of help you out and like his son was around, but like no, there was no trainer. Like there was.

This wasn’t a career, you know, I didn’t think it was. So I actually ended up in the restaurant business. I was waiting tables. It was like one of my jobs, you know and I went to the guidance counselor and she’s like, well, what do you like to do? I was like I like to work out and I wait table. She’s like, well, you know, we got a great like hospitality program. You know, I wish she would have been like hey, why don’t you get into this like exercise, science or something you know? But hey, hindsight, 20, 20, it all worked out pretty well for me. But so I was in the referral business for a long time and I actually think that really helped me and be where I am today, because they develop a ton of skills Like, if you’ve ever, have you ever worked in the referral business?

0:24:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah. You know, bus tables and all kinds of stuff.

0:24:13 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, you know. So, like I was a manager, like you know so. But anyways, and then I was at a gym working out, just like before my shift at work, and the guy comes up and he’s like the fitness manager said hey man, do you want to be a personal trainer? And I was like, okay. I was like, how do I do that? He was like, oh, just get the certification and you know, we’ll set you up with clients. I was like, oh, yeah, those are the golds of Jim. You know, like five years ago. And so, yeah, then I quit doing the restaurant business. I got all into fitness and you know so, back then, you know, like all I really knew how to do was like bodybuilding and powerlifting, like that’s really all I knew. How to lift heavy, I knew how to like get big, that was it. And but then when you get your first client, you know you’re like I’m not going to pay to come see you once a week. I’m like, what are you going to do with them? Am I going to have you do chest day? And then what are you going to do in the next like four? And then what am I going to do next week? I’m going to have you do leg beer. You know, by the end of the month we’re going to give all one month split, yeah, like, so you had to change, you had to figure it out. And I was like, okay, well, this isn’t sustainable for most people. What do we need to do?

And I remember my very first fitness manager was wrote down on a piece of paper and this like kind of changed my life. He wrote down he’s like lower core upper, and I was like simple enough, right, and that was like my first like exposure into, like just very basic, like we all know this now, right, but like back then like I didn’t really know. And so, yeah, then I started kind of evolving that it’s like, okay, how can I get people the biggest bank for their buck? How can we get the most results on like once a week, okay, and then some people do twice a week. How can we get a big bank for their buck? Like, what is it going to be?

And most people you know we’re talking about general population people, right, like what do they want? They want to lose weight, right, but I don’t control what they put in their mouth, so how do I keep them happy? And it’s like, okay, let’s start focusing on performance Right, and that’s where I’ve so, like a long time ago, I really figured out that to make someone happy and so I get them to continue on this journey, it’s got to be performance based Right, like. But I want to help someone lose weight, then I’ve got to really talk about nutrition. So that’s like where the whole like training for performance thing like really really started for me, like early on in my personal training career, and then I just met people along the way that you know. At the time I didn’t realize they were basically my mentors, but they were guys that like taught me like even more about like strength training and stuff like that.

0:26:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So did you start working with a lot of athletes at that time period, or was it just more general population that you know wanted to have some sort of performance based training in some capacity?

0:26:41 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, so it was. They didn’t know they were. They wanted performance based training.

That’s what that’s like when I, you know, like a minute ago it was like what do they want, what do they need? I’m like, well, here’s, you know what you want, what do they need to get there, right? So like, let’s just get you stronger, that’s going to help your quality of life. So like, yeah, at first, like my first, probably three years into the business, right, like I, just general population people, right People, everyday people want to get stronger, injured, you know, wanted to lose weight, just live a better quality of life. And then you know I love golf and I really wanted to, you know, dive into golfers. And so NASM, the National Academy of Sports Medicine, where I got my personal pay or certification and had a golf certification. Did you ever see that? You know? Yeah, yeah.

0:27:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I didn’t go through it, but I remember that coming out.

0:27:28 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, so I did that. I think that was like in 2015. I did that and then I found a few golfers in the gym and like just kind of like begged them to let me like do some stuff, because they weren’t really into training. But I knew because but we had talked about golf before they didn’t want to really want to pay for training. I was like I don’t really care, like just kind of let me try some of this stuff on you. And they just, like you know because, because in Washington this is in I was living in Washington DC at the time that this happened and if you’re familiar with Washington DC, it’s like it’s not a really commuter friendly city.

Like you know, it’s tough to go play golf. Like I didn’t have a, I didn’t even have a car. So, like, I took the subway, you know. So like and yeah, we did golf simulator places weren’t really popular back then. Well, like they are now I mean, this is only like seven years ago, but, oh shit, no Longer than that, yeah, it’s 2024, but anyways, they weren’t as accessible. So, like you know, to go play golf I had to literally get on a subway, a bus, and then, you know, or take an Uber and no one really wants to do that Right. So that’s my first like exposure into golfers and I just learned more and more along the way, like doing TPI and all that stuff, to get to where I am now, to where I’m just training or just writing programs for golf.

0:28:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Right. And then you, you just recently how long ago did you move back to Oklahoma again After you were down in Jupiter?

0:28:46 – Cody Wescott
Yes, I mean with Washington DC in 2015, I know 2014 and then moved from. I moved all around. Then we went from Washington DC, my wife and I. Then we moved from there to Austin, texas. That’s when I really started working. You’ve been everywhere. Yeah, that’s when I really started working with a lot of golfers was down in Austin. You know I worked. I partnered with some swing coaches. There’s some guys at a simulator place in Austin called Rock ROK, rock Golf. I met a lot of golfers there. Yeah, I partnered with the swing coaches and trade. I traded out them. I would do sessions with them, I would train them in the gym and then they would give me swing lessons.

Oh, nice For a sweet deal, and then then we moved back to Washington DC, Then we moved down to Jupiter, Florida, and now we’re here. So then, back I’m called what they call it boomerang, since I left and came back. So back here. Yeah, been back here a little over a year.

0:29:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome.

0:29:44 – Cody Wescott
Love it here.

0:29:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I was kind of I was kind of going through some of your podcasts and you know some of the topics on there really stuck out to me and you know there are questions that people have about you know what is golf training, how do you implement golf training, how does it help your golf swing? And one of the things that you had posed a question of is you know what’s a golf exercise versus what’s a golf drill? Can you break that down a little bit, because it’s kind of a gray area that I think people get confused and, you know, frankly, can be confusing for us coaches as well.

0:30:16 – Cody Wescott
Oh yeah, I mean. So, yeah, you’re talking about the episode where I even asked my wife. I was like, hey, like please help me with like explaining this, because it is like very nuanced and like it can be kind of tricky to even explain this, so, yeah, so what I like to think about is like I work with the swing coach, right, he gives me a drill, that is, with a golf club in my hand, for my exact like swing issue. Right, and I think that you know that drill is much better served with a club in my hand. I don’t think I need to go try to turn that drill into grabbing a band or getting a kettle bell or something like that and try to make it into a fancy golf exercise, because it may not give me like enough like stimulus, right, like provide my body with like enough like reason, because we have the reason we exercise is that we give our body a reason to adapt to the exercise we’re doing, right, and recover and things like that. So if I’m taking this drill and like trying to turn it into an exercise, like make that exercise like might not be that stimulating to me, right, and it might not really just do a whole lot for my body. Like, it may not change my central nervous system, my ability, muscle, it might not gain mobility. It might, it’s, it’s going to.

It could just end up in no man’s land, right, where, as I’d be much better off just taking his drill with the golf club and doing it a thousand times like he told me to do. Right, instead of like, oh, let me get here, let me grab this band, or let me get a million of the other toys that I had to play with. And try to like, oh, here, what if I, you know, help my, you know, get in my pit depth? What if I do this and grab this kettle bell, but with this band, and you know?

But the thing is like, is that again? Is that stuff bad? Like, is it better than getting up off the couch? Absolutely Right. So I think, like, do what I need to do in the gym to make me more mobile, strong, you know, and powerful, right, instead of just messing up his drill that he gave me. If that makes like, yeah, so it’s very nuanced. But like, yeah, I think if you, if you take it out of context and try to turn in something that it shouldn’t be, it could be a problem.

0:32:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it’s like what’s most efficient, right, like what are you best spent? What’s your time best spent on? Is it actually working on the skill or is it trying to come up with a way to kind of mimic it? But, like you said, if it doesn’t really create the adaptation, it’s almost like am I just kind of making stuff up? That is kind of wasting my time, where I could be either doing that drill or I could be lifting heavy or lifting something that’s going to provide a little bit more of that adaptation.

0:32:46 – Cody Wescott
Exactly so we can. You know, in social media we can kind of get ourselves in that trap, right, Because you know one of my, you know when you’re, I spent a lot of my time in big box gyms. You know what kind of listeners do you have? Like the other thing, I know what a big box gym is like.

0:33:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
We’re talking like a gold’s gym or like a plan of fitness or yeah, I would say most of the listeners are either kind of the 35 plus golfers or a lot of people in our industry medical pros, fitness pros, all kind of tied into the golf world as well.

0:33:16 – Cody Wescott
So like a big box gym, like a gold’s well, a gold’s is a big company. They want to make money, right. So, like one of the things I’ll you know. So, as a trainer, as a fitness manager that I was you are there to make sales and one of the things the guy would tell me is like you know what? Hey, man, I know you’re here. When I was like a, when I was a new trainer, he was like hey, man, I know you’re here to like train people, help them out, like that’s whatever trainer wants. He was like, but you cannot train what you cannot obtain. So like you have to sell him.

Or now, in the day of social media, we have to like bring them in somehow. And usually the way you catch a golfer’s attention right is not by doing a 405 pound barbell back squat. It’s going to be by doing something that looks like it will help them with their golf. So I think we all have our guilty of that and like not for a bad reason, right, because it does help. But always tell people it’s kind of like the icing on the cake for like when it comes to golf fitness training, and I saw this firsthand when I worked I’ll just leave the gym nameless.

But one of the guys, like you know, posted a lot on social media and it was a lot of this, a lot of the mobility stuff, right. And when the guy came in to work with him, he like put them through his normal workout, which included, like I think it was like Bulgarian split squats. He had him doing co-ops, he had him doing you know, like a trap, bar deadlift or something like you know, just some stuff like that, along with some of the other things. That guy was like no, no, no, man, I can’t hear to do all the stuff on your social media. And I had to listen to him explain to the guy like, hey, no, no, actually, yes, we do that stuff, but here’s like the big chunk of how I train. And so, yeah, I think you know we do it for a reason, so we can obtain eyeballs. And then you get people to trust you and say, hey, yes, this drew you in, but here’s what else we’re going to do and this is why we need to do it.

0:35:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I remember talking to a golf fitness pro that most people listening to this would know who he is. I don’t want to share his name, but him telling me years ago, like you know, you got to give him a little bit of the golfiness, right, because that’s why they’re there. You got to do this. And he’s like, maybe that’s you working on a one legged deadlift kind of position, but maybe you do throw a golf club in their hand, maybe you do, you know, make it a little, a little golf ish, as Charlie Weingroff would say, but because that’s there to give them the buy-in and then you can.

You know, we’ve always said here at 18STRONG, we kind of like we lull you in, like you’re saying we lull you in with the golf stuff, but we hopefully provide you with enough value where you then leave with, you know, more strength, more mobility, and you didn’t really know that you were coming for some of that stuff. But you then see the benefit of it and you know the balance and whatever those pieces are. But but yeah, we want to do what we want to do. So, as the clients they’re coming in, they want, they want to maybe hit some balls.

They want to maybe you know, put the strap on and pretend like they’re in their golf posture, and there’s nothing wrong with that as long as you understand, or as long as they understand, like, why we’re doing it and it’s not just because it’s a cool, fancy looking golf move, right?

0:36:17 – Cody Wescott
Oh, absolutely, and you know it goes back. I mean, it’s not just with golf, right. I mean, when you know, a big chunk of my career was training people, the general population that wants to lose weight what do most people think they need to do to lose weight? Cardio or something like very high intensity, like get really sweaty. So you know, at the end of the workout, right like we’re like 45, 50, 55 minutes into an hour long workout, what do you need to hit them with? You know you got to get them, got to get them sweaty, because that’s what they want, Right, like there’s nothing wrong with that.

You know, like, hey, I just got you through this strength training workout. Here’s going to be the meat potatoes of what we did. But you still have this belief and, like you know, I’m reading a book right now and, like you know, one of his laws is, like you know, you can’t change someone’s belief. And if people believe that they need to do this golf exercise or they need to do some cardio to lose weight, throw it in there, right, like let them do it because they believe that and that helps them like get to their end goal. And you know so, fitness is so much of a mind game, right. Two like not only I probably didn’t say game, but it’s like you know it’s, it’s a lot of it is up here.

0:37:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and I truly believe that if that person doesn’t really know what the intention of them, whatever exercise program it is that they’re doing, they won’t get that result because it’s not focused in on that, even if they’re maybe doing the same exercises as somebody else that’s there for that goal. There’s something about you know that whole mind-body connection, or just connecting with the purpose of it. That kind of makes you do the other little ancillary things that you don’t even think about to get you closer to that goal. So, speaking of that, one other podcast topic that you had on your show was the idea of gaining muscle. So you know, I think that, first of all, this demographic often thinks that gaining muscle is kind of in the past. You know the guys that are at 35, 40, 45 plus. But then, especially if you’re on a golf program, is it possible to still gain muscle while still helping your golf game?

0:38:12 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, I mean I’m not going to say her flex on camera, but I think so. You know, a lot of it has to do with nutrition, right, like how you’re going, adequate protein, things like that to help you build lean tissue, right. But you know, when you progressively overload and you, you know, I think a lot of the. You know we used to think that muscle was built like mainly with volume, right, like high volume, like three sets of 10 or four sets of 10 was kind of like the name of the game and the bodybuilder world, right, those types of rep ranges to get adequate muscle hypertrophy. But you know, it’s just, it’s mechanical tension, and so you got to get in some hard reps, like in my, in my programs, I make sure to put in, you know, like RPE or like reps in reserve, like you know the rate of perceived exertion or reps in reserve, so that way you can get that, you know, close to failure, so that way you can build muscle mass right, and it’s going to look.

I think what’s interesting is people don’t understand that that muscle looks different on everybody, right, like whatever your body composition is, like I have short limbs, like I’m only five, six, and like I have short arms. I have short legs. Like it looks like I have a, you know it looks like I’m huge, but like I mean or not huge, but I have a small area here to pack in the muscle, right, I’m not tall, you know, so like, but it just looks different on everyone. I think the people miss the nutrition part and you know I know some people are afraid to bulk up. Like I don’t need to, you know, get all big and stuff like that, and it’s like, trust me, like it’s really not going to happen as much as I would love it to happen, cause like I would be freaking jacked if I could get any you know like get any bigger, like I would be there because that’s what I want, cause I like that, cause I’m I’m a meathead at heart, right, but I’m doing all specific training.

Yeah, I mean, I get that all the time where people like, hey, you know, here I’m doing your like it’s usually cause I offer a free trial. So people like start the trial and like, hey, man, there’s only like two chest exercises in here and I don’t see any arms. Like you know what? Like I want that stuff. Like can I add that in? I’m like why don’t you just give it a shot here? We got heavy pulls, we got tons of rowing, there’s pressing, there’s pushups, there’s all this kind of stuff. Like we’ve got swaths, this total body. You are going to build muscle. If you, if you, if you, if you do the workouts and you check the box and you mail it in, you’re not, you know you’re not going to get anything Right, like, even if you do that with mobility, like mobility is like I think you had a doctor, kyle, on here, right, yeah, yeah, you even talked about getting sore during mobility.

I loved hearing that. Like, yeah, you got to push your mobility right. Like you know, you shouldn’t check in anything or check the box on anything. Like go hard on your mobility, like go for it. Same thing with like your power, like all your, all your exercises should be like you should be like get putting some effort into it and your body will respond to that if you give it like proper nutrients to build that up. And so I think, yeah, that’s one thing you know in my programs. Like my wife, my wife’s a nutrition coach. She wrote like an ebook that goes along with our, our lip heavy, swing fast. It’s called eat to perform. It’s not only like, it’s your nutrition, help your body composition, but it also helps your performance too. So very important. But yes, to answer your question, go all the way back around. I straw, I mean I’m, I feel like I’m living proof of like yeah, you can get pretty good sized muscles from doing a golf specific program.

0:41:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and the fact that when you do, or if you do, have a good amount of muscle mass, you can still move very well. You watch your golf swing. On some of your videos you crush a ball. I saw what it was 171 ball speed on the one. Just the one swing that I saw on the website.

0:41:47 – Cody Wescott
Oh yeah.

0:41:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’m like people think that big, strong, athletic-looking builds may not be able to move very well through a golf swing. But when you’re doing the right things, you’re training the right way and you’re not even though you know meet heads at heart even, but you know doing it the right way for the golf swing, you can still create a lot of movement and mobility and that athletic motion without suffering, even though you’re building muscle mass.

0:42:12 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, and I think you know one of the topics I hammer on a lot is like is bodybuilding, because bodybuilding is popular and I think that’s what a lot of people just realize. I think that’s like the only way to train right. It’s like leg day, back day, chest day, stuff like that. Yeah, I think the common misconception out there is that like a bodybuilder, someone with a lot of muscle, is like not flexible or they’re not mobile. But I can show you tons of pictures online of like Roddy Coleman you know he is just massive man. Oh yeah, he can like do the splits Right.

Like these guys are super mo they run into a problem right when their soft tissue gets so big that like say, like you know, their biceps and their pecs like hit each other and they can’t like physically grip like a golf club right. Like they are so massive that they like they’re handsy like this close together. I know a guy like that. He was my physical therapist in down in Jupiter and that’s only when it becomes a problem and most people like, unless they take a little bit of something something you know I’m talking about like they’re never, ever going to get that close right.

And like I’m a decent sized guy and, like I told my swing coach, justin Kraft, I was like hey, man, look at my swing, my body can do whatever you tell me it needs to do. Like I’m mobile, I can get in whatever position. So don’t hold back. Like if I need to rotate my hip and you know, rotate my thoracic spine and get good hip depth and do this and do that. Like tell me and I will figure it. My body can get there, I just don’t learn how to do it.

0:43:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
There’s another point that you’ve made that I really like, and some of the coaches on that are listening to this may not love that we bring this up, but you say that you don’t need a personal trainer.

0:43:54 – Cody Wescott
Right Like yeah.

0:43:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So let’s talk about that a little bit, because I’ve had conversations about this and this is coming from a guy that still works with a lot of people in the gym on a daily basis. I still do a lot of in-person training, but I think there’s a lot to be said for this statement of that people don’t need a personal trainer.

0:44:15 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, so where do I begin with that?

0:44:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Wherever you want man, Just let it run.

0:44:18 – Cody Wescott
You’re not going to link my phone over on here. Are you Like people harassing?

0:44:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
me. No, you’re just your social media.

0:44:25 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, that’s fine, those are full of stuff anyways. Yeah, so I mean, I was a personal trainer for a long time. I still am, right, and I get it Like it’s a business, absolutely. But I always felt my job was to be an educator and not to like overly educate and talk, like you’ll probably notice, Like I don’t think I’ve said a very big word yet and I probably won’t, just because that’s not how I speak to people and I don’t speak that way to my clients, like I want to educate them, like here’s why we’re doing this, here’s how you need to do it, because everyone needs to do it differently, right, like everyone needs a squat, but you don’t have to back squat, but everyone should squat or split squat or whatever, and each person is going to do it differently just because of the way they move and the way their anatomy is, and so on and so forth. So my job is an educator and I always feel that you know that old saying like you can teach a man to fish all that you know, whatever. Yep, everyone knows how that goes. So I always feel like that was my job.

Now here’s where, like now, personal training is expensive and if someone can afford it and they enjoy you right, they should keep training with you. Like I always told my clients, like I am going and this was like one of my sales pitches. Part of it I was like, hey, I’m going to teach you enough to where you can do this on your own. Now my job is also to have you enjoy working with me so much. See the results and see that I can keep bringing value to the table, that you still keep paying me, right, and the people that people will believe that, like, they appreciate the honesty, like, okay, yeah, you know I can afford to keep paying you. And there’s also the accountability piece and, like you know, you do get better results. Like when someone is watching you and pushing you and motivating you and you’re held accountable to a schedule. Like you’re not going to, you know, because I think most trainers probably have a cancellation policy. Right, you make that appointment, you are going to show up or else you’re going to lose your $150 or whatever it is that you paying, you know. So all that stuff plays a part of it.

But to actually do the exercise, I feel like my job should have been to teach you enough to do it on your own, and then we can, and then you know then that person because again, I talked about the beginning of the show like you can only as a personal trainer, like 30, 40 sessions a week is like 12 people, and if you’re a good trainer, you’ve probably got people that are also waiting to get in your door.

So now, so it’s like the business part of it I want to take money out of personal trainers pockets. Like now you move this person that was trading with you one-on-one to to programming right, like use an app. There’s a ton of great apps out there to set people up on customized programming if you want there, that that’s a way to you know, to to streamline your business right, to scale your business was the word I’m looking for. And then now you take that new person in it right, and then help them the same way. So, like that’s what I’ve always believed. Now, granted, I was able to keep people for a long time because, like, they just like hey, man, now I’m cranky paying you because that’s why easier for me to just pay you and people have the means they’ll, they’ll do it.

0:47:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and I mean just to. To second that, there’s the accountability piece. Some people are just paying because they want. They want that meeting or you know that appointment on their calendar. They know I’ve got, I’ve got a guy, just like that. He’s like I know that I could do most of this myself, but I’m not going to do it by myself and having you on the calendar make sure that I do it to maybe three times a week.

But I am 100% with you that our job as coaches is to help educate and teach people to take, take responsibility for themselves.

And I can personally say that from experience. I’ve seen clients of mine that I’ve worked with continuously and then once they decided that you know what I can, I can take some responsibility here and do this, and then they really turned it on and then they’re more, you know, they’re more bought in, they start to do more, they start to kind of start living the lifestyle a little bit more. And I think it’s it’s once the person ends up making that decision that hey, this is on me, this isn’t on Cody, this isn’t on Jeff, this isn’t on whatever the coach, but I got to get in there and do it and maybe they’re still coming in once a week, twice a week, but them getting on doing it on on their own too. You know that’s, and I, I’m with you. I feel like it’s our job, and sometimes I see that the people that end up taking on that responsibility, that’s when they really start to see like Holy shit, this is, this stuff’s working and I’m going all in.

0:48:49 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, and you can group them together Like right, like if you had a couple of guys like I had a couple of guys that were kind of like that, like hey, I could probably do this on my own, and like I’m like, well, this other guy is doing pretty much the same thing you’re doing. Once you guys start working out together and then I trained them together. You know that was like one on two, so I might my other time opened up for someone else, and then now they do it on their own. And then I had a client. You know before that they’re my friends now. Um, you know she’s the.

The wife signed up the husband and to help him get out of a rut. He was, he was really stressed at work and stuff like that. And she even told, and then you know, he would come, he would come straight from work, bit to me about his day. I’d like, okay, cool, I gave you that five minutes, let’s get to work now. And he’d leave, you know, happy as shit, and she would text me afterwards. She’s like, oh my God, she was like I will, I will just pay for this forever, cause he comes home now, he’s in a good mood, I don’t have to deal with, like what you just went through, like that first few minutes, like my life’s better, his life’s better, like I’ll just pay for this. You know never. You never know like what kind of effect you’re going to have.

0:49:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and and back to your hospital hospitality background, like I think that’s where you know people that have have backgrounds and stuff like that. And you know my, my initial degree in school is psychology and I I feel like I got so much, so much out of my psychology degree compared to my physical therapy degree just with interacting with people and being able to do that because, face it, we’re like bartenders, we’re like, you know, hairdressers, where people come and, yeah, they’re doing their workouts, but some of it is it’s almost like just a session where they can just kind of let some things go, they can talk to us about stuff, and that can be just as beneficial as the workout that they get for real.

0:50:32 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, I mean yeah, at the end of the day, we’re just trying to help people’s quality of life and help them play better golf too. And you know, like you know so great that it all just kind of works together. And yeah, like you know, they make like lifelong friends. Like I’m still. I still talk to these people, like actually they were in my most recent like video shoot that I did down in Austin and I called them up and say, hey, I need some, I need some subjects. You know like come, come, get in. Like you know, so it’s, it’s great.

0:50:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool. All right, my man. Well, we’re going to close up with some questions that we ask everybody that comes on the ATL 18STRONG podcast. So I know you know that these are coming, first and foremost, Katie Shepard. Katie Shepard, happy Gilmore.

0:51:09 – Cody Wescott
You know I love this question. Um didn’t one of the guys from catty shop recently die, sadly?

0:51:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
um. You know what I don’t know?

0:51:18 – Cody Wescott
Anyways, um, happy Gilmore. I mean I was born in 87. Happy Gilmore came out. You know I was still pretty young, but you know I love Adam Sandler. There’s people you had a clip of the wedding singer the other day. I thought it was hilarious. Like so I mean, yeah, adam Sandler, the Bob Barker fight. So yeah, happy Gilmore.

0:51:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. What would be your walkup song to the first T if you could pick one?

0:51:41 – Cody Wescott
You know I love this question because I’m going to you know, so this wouldn’t be something I listened to. But I think when you walk up to the first T, right, you’re kind of like trying to get into other people’s heads, not just for you, right, it’s like right about this for a second. So I listened to. When I work I listen to heavy metal. So there’s never heard of a band called Lamb of God.

0:52:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No.

0:52:00 – Cody Wescott
So the song’s called limit limit, it’s called Lamigod or Lamigod’s name. The band songs called break you, and I probably don’t want to. You don’t want to play with like small children around it’s, it’s, you know, it’ll get you going. If you’re ready to lift heavy, like it’s just going to juice you up and blow your ear drums out.

0:52:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
But yeah, a little bit of a lot of metal. Okay, I love it. Is there a book that you have that you like to recommend to people, or a book that has really meant something to you over the years, that you tend to either give as a gift or recommend?

0:52:30 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, I got it right here.

I reread it all the time how to win friends and influence people Dale Farage I think it’s like the oldest book you know out there I read, I kind of read a lot, but I reread that one like all the time. I mean, I think, as as a personal, as a as a fitness person, it’s huge, right, because influence kind of sounds wrong. Right, like I’m trying to, but I’m trying to influence a good result, I’m trying to influence a good, positive behavior from someone else and like how I can communicate that and have that happen. Like you know, especially for me right now, since I’m communicating on a large scale with my app, is like hundreds of people that and I also don’t get any feedback from them like a lot of them right, like only if you only a small percentage of them like react, like comment most people are just sitting there workouts, which is Berkeley by, so it really helps you communicate.

I think it’s probably one of the best books I’ve ever read and then right now I’m reading. I know you didn’t ask for two, but I’m going to give it to you anyway.

0:53:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, I was actually just going to ask what you’re reading, because you mentioned it.

0:53:30 – Cody Wescott
So Stephen Bartley he’s got a pretty cool podcast on. He’s kind of got some interesting episodes as of late. But this is his the diary of a CEO, the 33 laws of business and life and I talked about it a second ago. Like one of the things he wanted. His laws is that you cannot change someone’s beliefs. So I’ve got to really think about that too when I’m programming exercises for people, right Is? I know there’s a lot of people that don’t believe, like, in doing a lot of barbell lifts, and there’s a lot of people that are diehard at the barbell lifting and don’t want to do anything else. So I mean, you’ve got to kind of figure out, like, how I can communicate to each camp.

0:54:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’m definitely putting that one on my list. That sounds super interesting. It’s funny. The how to win friends and influence people. This is the second podcast in a row that that book has been mentioned, so that episode that’s coming out this week, as a matter of fact.

0:54:19 – Cody Wescott
Oh, well then just cut it out and just have me put up the diaries.

0:54:22 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No man. No, I love the repeat because it shows that it’s such an influential book and it has been around for so many years. And, yeah, that’s one of the ones that I read a long long time ago and has always stuck with me and have reread a couple of times as well. Awesome, all right, who would you put in your celebrity foursome if you got to pick four, four guy, three or four to go play golf with and you could, you know, spend time with past present doesn’t matter if they’re dead or alive. Who’s who’s in your foursome?

0:54:54 – Cody Wescott
So another question like these are good questions, you did a good job on these.

0:54:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thank you.

0:54:58 – Cody Wescott
So I’m a history buff like at heart, like I go to bed watching like World War II documentaries, so it’d be some like kind of famous you know world leader and like probably like an Abraham Lincoln at Winston Churchill, franklin Roosevelt, maybe Lyndon Johnson or Jai JFK, likei don’t know someone like that. One of those guys probably would suck at golf, but you know, maybe not Maybe one of them was pretty good, I don’t know.

Then you know. Definitely. I know I know this one’s been said before, but I think you got to play with Michael Jordan, right, like I mean that’s just I don’t know.

And then you know, I was a I was a dive hard Phil fan. I got a hat signed by Phil. You know, like you know, there’s a lot of controversy around Phil lately, which bums me out a little bit because I think it took away some of his. You know, maybe he deserved it. I don’t really I’m not going to get into all that, but you know, I feel I just think played around a golf with Phil would be a hell of a lot of fun.

0:55:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Oh man, and can you imagine the trash talk between him and Jordan and the money being slung around?

0:55:57 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, and then yeah, oh yeah. They even think about the group itself, Like I was thinking about, and me individually. You put each one of them but yeah, that’s a good point.

0:56:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, it’d be awesome. Yeah, you can go and tell.

0:56:07 – Cody Wescott
Dave Lincoln like how to chip you know?

0:56:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
it’d be great he might have been a lefty, I don’t know, All right, if we could, if we had the 18STRONG Learjet fueled up. We’re like Cody we’re picking you up. You get to pick where we’re going. Where’s the bucket list course that we’re heading to today?

0:56:24 – Cody Wescott
You know, I know you, you, it was the background. We can’t say August or St Andrews, so you know I I don’t know why I’ve like, I’m kind of like a gut like person, like if I just feel like I like something, then I’m just going to kind of like it, and I don’t know why. Kiowa maybe it’s because I was a Phil fan, I just like went nuts when he won the PGA a few years ago at Kiowa, but I don’t know something about that course just looks really fun. You know, I like the, I like the Carolina’s, like I think that’s a cool area of the of the world, of the country. So yeah, I don’t know why, like Kiowa, like kind of draws me you know the ocean course, of course, but yeah.

0:56:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool. What’s a social media account that you follow that you think the 18STRONG crew would be interested in following as well? Doesn’t have to be golf, doesn’t have to be fitness, could be anything.

0:57:09 – Cody Wescott
Oh man, now that you said that to be fitness or anything.

0:57:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And you can give. You can give a couple if you want.

0:57:16 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, I think you’re learning a lot to give a, I like to give a few I definitely a minnow of insulins and biolane. They are a couple of people that, because I do like I’m again like I’m always trying to think all of us are like trying to like push the envelope and what we’re doing here and like how we can create the best, like golf, in this program for people and I think there’s still a lot to be learned about what we can do and I think we and I don’t know if there’s I don’t know of any active studies of like a golf performance, but you can find a lot of studies on other types of human performance and like other ways of training. So, like these two guys like biolane is more of like a nutrition guy minnow, he kind of breaks down a lot of like the training stuff and they kind of break down studies and if you subscribe to them you can also, like you know, view their like synopsis of of how they broke down the study, because, like I’ve tried to read some of these you know like PubMed studies and I’m not smart enough. Like it’s just, it’s so long, it’s confusing, like so I need guys like that. They did just give me the information right, and then I can turn around and give it to someone else. So I really like that when it comes like programming with people and how I’m going to keep like pushing the envelope and the programs that I write, and then I have you, have you heard of a goob?

You too? No, so this is how you spell it. This is pretty. His is pretty fascinating and you can’t watch too much of it because it kind of gets you.

Know he? What he does is he finds fitness frauds right and he actually I think he’s expanded lately but it’s mainly people in the fitness industry that are frauds, that are possibly purchasing followers that are photo shopping, that are just lying right, and he like exposes them. So it’s pretty wild. I wouldn’t want to do what he does because he’s destroying some people and it’s pretty crazy. Some of the he’s got to have death threats and stuff. It’s wild.

But yeah, like I mean it’s crazy. You know like and and I think these people should be exposed because you’re exploiting. You know someone in need like for their like fitness is. Usually they’re coming to you when, like, when you need someone, when someone’s like, you need like sometimes it’s desperate need like maybe they are seriously going to have a health problem if they don’t get some help, like if they don’t lose weight or whatever it is. And these people are, like you know, photo shopping or showing that they get this person results and they don’t, or that this is going to work and it doesn’t Like. So that kind of stuff I think is important, but it’s also kind of I don’t know you can go down the rabbit hole of Washington.

0:59:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
It’s Tread with caution.

0:59:54 – Cody Wescott
Yeah, and then he also like goes into other stuff too. But yeah, okay, yeah.

0:59:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cause I know so. So bioling Lee Norton, you know he he does a little bit of that. So if you’re saying this is you know he just kind of calls people out on their BS, right, but this sounds like it’s a whole, it’s a whole different level of you know, kind of investigating and and bringing people to light, yeah, and then you know and then he’ll like you know the finding people that have like fraudulent followers, like I think that’s pretty big in our space too.

1:00:21 – Cody Wescott
It’s like competition is fine, right, like other people in our space fitness, golf, fitness, whatever it is like he doesn’t like exposing one of the golf fitness space. I’m not calling out like anyone in our little group here, but you know it’s it’s it’s competition as fair cheating is not.

1:00:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah.

1:00:39 – Cody Wescott
So if you’re, if you’re showing like the hey, my accounts of this and I’m doing on this grade and you’re really not like it’s, it’s wrong.

1:00:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, false advertising. Yeah, for sure. All right, man. Last question what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given?

1:00:53 – Cody Wescott
You know. So the only piece I ever got for like years was keep your left arm straight. And when I got my first golf lesson the guy was like man, you really keep that left arm straight, don’t you? But but no, and then I think lately I’m kind of talking with what why we talked earlier. I have a client who’s a really good golfer, club champ Southern Hills, and we’ve kind of talked about this whole like, and one of the things he said to me one day was play golf, not golf swing, right, and I don’t hit a draw very well, I cut the ball, I can hit it straight Well, sometimes you know, not all in command, I’m not a pro, but I don’t hit draws very well.

But if so, if I stand up there and I have to hit a draw and I’m thinking about club path and starting, you know starting line and this and that and what I got to do to get the ball to go right to left, I’m screwed. But if I just stand up there and like take like a caveman, ask, like look at the ball and like ball go there, you know kind of thing like little white ball go that way, it’s better. Not doesn’t always work, but you know taps into that inner athlete right.

1:01:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Just see the ball and smack it.

1:01:59 – Cody Wescott
Just hit the ball. Just hit the little white ball.

1:02:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Just do it Awesome. All right, my man, this was a lot of fun and I’m looking forward to watching your content. Continue to build and grow and the train heavy swing fast program. It looks there you go again. Yeah, you know, looks awesome. So, guys, make sure you go check out Cody Wescott and it’s where’s the best place for them to follow you Instagram, right?

1:02:23 – Cody Wescott
And you know I love YouTube. I think YouTube is a super high value, but, yeah, instagram is my biggest platform. So, but, cody Wescott, golf anywhere, I’m on everything. So whatever your cup of tea is, I’ll be there.

1:02:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, brother. Really appreciate you being here and I know the 18STRONG crew is going to go check you out and we’ll be in touch soon. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Transcribed by https://podium.page

Guest: Dr. Jason Selk (Peak Performance Coach, Sports Psychologist, Best Selling Author)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 367
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Have you ever caught yourself stuck on the hamster wheel of negative thinking when facing a challenge? Dr. Jason Selk (Full Bio Below), a master of sports psychology and performance coaching, joins us to turn that wheel in a new direction with his game-changing concept: Relentless Solution Focus (RSF). Together, we unpack the transformative power of pivoting from problem-centric to solution-based thinking — a skill that not only enhances mental toughness but also potentially adds years to your life.

Imagine your brain as an athlete; with the right training, it can muscle out stress-inducing thoughts and replace them with a winning strategy. Throughout our discussion, Dr. Selk provides actionable techniques to rewire your brain for success. These include daily mental exercises and success logs aimed at fostering positive neural pathways. Moreover, we explore real-life triumphs in the sports arena where a steadfast commitment to solutions has led to unprecedented victories, showcasing the profound impact of RSF in high-pressure environments.

As we wrap up our chat with Dr. Selk, the conversation shifts to the greens, where golfers know all too well the mental game’s highs and lows. We talk about the importance of a clear mindset and structured goal setting, taking a leaf from Stephen Covey’s book on proactivity. Whether you’re looking to shave strokes off your game or elevate your professional performance, embracing an RSF mentality could be your ticket to resilience and success. So, grab your clubs and your headphones, and get ready to play your best round yet, both in life and on the course.

(00:03) Mental Toughness and Solution Focus

Dr. Jason Selk discusses the benefits of Relentless Solution Focus and practical strategies to enhance mental toughness.

(12:39) Changing Brain Biology to Improve Performance

RSF thinking can improve performance by countering the caudate loop and shifting from PCT, as seen in sports teams’ success.

(24:04) Golf Performance Thoughts and Control

Mental focus and thought patterns impact golf performance, including anger and negative thinking. Performance statements and avoiding negative discussions are important.

(30:40) Being Proactive, Setting Goals

Proactive goal-setting is crucial for personal and professional development, with process goals being the key to success.

(40:57) Relentless Solution Focus and 18STRONG

Dr. Selk discusses Relentless Solution Focus and its application to improve mental toughness and performance in golf and life.

How to Win Friends and Influence People – Dale Carnegie

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

Jeff Pelizzaro: [00:00:00] The 18STRONG Podcast episode number 367 with Dr. Jason Selk, sports psychologist and performance coach.

What’s up guys. Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast where we’re here to help you build a stronger game because we believe every golfer deserves to play better longer. This week we have a special guest, Dr. Jason Selk in studio to talk about his book, Relentless Solution Focus. And really just to talk about the RSF mentality, which is getting out of the cycle of thinking of our problems all the time, which tends to get us in trouble on and off the golf course and learning how to truly focus on the solutions that are going to resolve those problems or at least pieces of those [00:01:00] problems.

So it’s learning how to shift your focus from the problem over to the solution. This is the number one characteristic of mental toughness, which Jason’s going to explain in this episode. He also teaches us not just how to understand this. The knowledge of it, but also how to take action and truly train our brains to do that.

Just like you would train your muscles. So you really enjoy this episode with Jason. Our partners over at Link Soul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course from polos to t shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach.

There’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong. com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20 percent off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong. com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview.[00:02:00]

Dr. Silk, welcome to the 18STRONG Podcast. Jeff,

Dr. Jason Selk: thanks for having me. As I said, you gotta please call me Jason. Absolutely,

Jeff Pelizzaro: absolutely. First and foremost, this book, your book, Relentless Solution Focus, has been recommended several times on our last couple of podcasts. And it just happens that you’re a St.

Louis guy, you live not too far down the road, and you were nice enough to come into the studio. So I can’t wait to dig into this, literally just finished it this morning, and but I want to talk to you first of all and foremost about mental toughness. Define mental toughness for us to just kick off the show.

Dr. Jason Selk: We’re going to get right to it, huh? Yeah, for sure. I have had, hundreds of definitions of mental toughness over the last 25 years, but I think the one for me that sticks the most is the mind’s ability, To stay focused on solutions, especially in the face of adversity. Nobody needs mental toughness when the scoreboard is in your favor.[00:03:00]

It’s when you’re losing by two or three runs, you’re down to your last out. It’s when your bank account is dwindling and you’re not sure how your pipeline is going to fill back up. It’s when you’re in a relationship and it’s not as easy as it used to be. I think those are the times where People really need mental toughness.

Jeff Pelizzaro: And one of the most crucial pieces of the book is the fact that most of the time we tend to focus on the things that are going wrong the problems that we have. Can you speak a little bit to really the, that’s the big piece and some of the pieces that we can dive into to help.

Dr. Jason Selk: Yeah, I think it’s important to normalize for people that, unfortunately, the way our brains are built, it is completely normal, biologically speaking, to focus on the problem.

It’s called PCT, [00:04:00] problem centric thinking. Hundreds of years ago, it was necessary for the advancement of the species. That, if we weren’t always worried about the threat that was lurking in the bushes, then we were more than likely going to end up in the lion’s den. And so hundreds of years ago, it was critical for survival, for literally, for our species to advance.

Fast forward hundreds of years, and we live in a very safe time now, comparatively speaking, and so that same PCT tendency Even though it, hundreds of years ago, was so good for us, it’s now so bad for us. We just went through this worldwide pandemic, and the truth of the matter is, PCT will take more lives by far than any pandemic, hopefully, that we ever face.

Certainly anything we’ve ever faced. Because we actually, when we allow our minds to do what’s totally [00:05:00] normal, which is Focus on the problem. The brain releases a neurotransmitter called cortisol. Cortisol, it’s the punctuation of fight or flight. And that is where, the advancement or the survival of the species was affected in such a positive way, was us living a lot of our lives in that fight or flight mode.

However, when that cortisol goes in the bloodstream, it’s a toxin for us. It causes all feelings of stress. anxiety, fear, anger, depression, guilt, but it literally is like a poison. Now, the good thing is that when the cortisol goes in, it’s such a low dose, but shoot, if you inject yourself with low doses of poison, even if it’s just small amounts and low doses over time, that’s going to get you.

And here’s what I tell you, people with. RSF and RSF is, it’s the title of the book, relentless Solution Focus. I think you could [00:06:00] interchange RSF for mental toughness. I really think they’re almost synonymous. So a person with RSF or a person with mental toughness, biologically speaking, is going to live on average 14 years longer.

Wow. It’s crazy. You think about 14 years, think, what were you doing 14 years ago? That’s a long time. And. The kicker is not only will you live significantly longer, but scientifically proven again that you’re going to have measurable increases in health, happiness, and success, is if you can really learn to keep the mind away from that biologically normal PCT, which we know, with some training, doesn’t take major amounts, some, we can actually train PCT to go away And be replaced with RSF.

So I could say PCT is mental weakness and I could [00:07:00] say RSF is mental toughness. With training, we can all become mentally tough, just as. When I’m born, my bicep is completely weak, but with training, I can make that guy pretty strong. With training. Yeah, and that’s

Jeff Pelizzaro: the big piece that I took out of it is, mental toughness to me, that’s a noun, right?

But RSF is you have to take action too. You can read all the books. And one of the big pieces of your book is that it’s not just about the knowledge. You’re actually giving a way for us to train. And I remember the story in there about when you were out on your deck and came up with the idea of Hey, we train our bodies.

We have to train our mind. And so speak to how important the action piece is. We can hear it all though. We hear it all the time, but it

Dr. Jason Selk: really hits home. Yeah, I think it’s why I’ve had so much success in my career. I know it’s what got me the job at the St. Louis Cardinals back in 2006.

That, I think you get a lot of people in the mental health field. [00:08:00] And, maybe you say in the sports psychology world where it’s very much, let me teach you certain things. And I learned a long time ago, knowing something does nothing, doing something does. And again, if you look at, The biology of the brain.

That’s the part I think people must understand that all day long I can pep talk you to be strong. Jeff, you know a lot about making the body strong That’s really your bread and butter. You could teach me so many things about having strong biceps or strong legs But until I get my butt up off this chair and go out there and start doing some of the exercises nothing changes and I know You know with my approach, a mental workout, it is a, when I was working with the Cardinals, it was three minutes and 40 seconds.

People in the business world, it’s a minute and 40 seconds. And there are biological reasons, I need to, with an athlete, do enough visualization where it actually starts to create muscle memory. And we know [00:09:00] you can do that. In the business world, we don’t need muscle memory. We just really need that mental memory.

So we don’t need to have it as long. But, again, it’s not a pep talk. Mental toughness is no more a pep talk than physical toughness is. However, you got most people like me. are going to tell you a pep talk will do it. And I would just challenge you. And I think this is why in my career, the people I’ve worked with have had a lot of success that we don’t talk about it.

We do it, we train it. And once you train it, you really can’t. Not have it there when you want it.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Can you break down a little bit of what RSF stands for? How do you go from that PCT thinking to more of the solution focused thinking?

Dr. Jason Selk: Yeah, so just definition, RSF is Relentless Solution Focus. And the definition I use is within 60 seconds replacing all negative or problem focused thought with Solution focused thinking, the reason we want to do it [00:10:00] quickly, the 60 seconds and I don’t know that people need to get their stopwatches out or protractors out, but the whole idea is to move your thoughts from problem to solution and do it quickly because the longer I stay focused on the problem, the more that cortisol is being pushed into the bloodstream.

Now, I told you, cortisol makes you feel like garbage, but it also makes you stupid. If you think about fight or flight, your brain, the essence of fight or flight is your brain is just losing its ability for detailed thinking. Translation to me is, you become dumb. And I know this, if I’m trying to solve a problem, I need to be as smart as possible.

So I want to, as quickly as possible, start working on the solution. But again, it’s completely abnormal. It’s biologically ingrained for me to think about the problem. And then most people believe, and I call this the great myth, that most people believe if you start thinking about a problem, it will naturally [00:11:00] lead you to a solution.

And there’s just no empirical evidence anywhere to support that. When I first started I was doing a lot of marriage counseling. I was taking any, anyone who needed my services. I specialized in sport, but I had to pay the bills and I was doing marriage counseling. I was doing drug and alcohol counseling.

I did anything any mental health person could or would do, I was doing. And so I had this couple and they were two physicians. They’d been married 30 years. Living in separate bedrooms for the last 10 years. . But I thought, okay, no problem. I, they train you something in, in in graduate school for marriage counseling.

It’s called the ABCs of Communication. They’re still teaching this today. By the way, the A is you learn to say to your spouse, I feel B is when you see is in this situation. So these two come into the office and I’m really optimistic. [00:12:00] And I know they’re not doing very well, but I’ve got the ABCs, I’m gonna have them back in the rack in no time, no problem, right?

So they sit down and I lay the ABCs on them, and World War III broke out. And I couldn’t control it, and they left the office, and I was very concerned. I thought I’m trying to build a practice here, and if people come in and they have 10 problems, and they leave and they’ve got 14 problems, They’re going to stop coming in pretty quickly and above and beyond that, I just, I want to help people.

And so I started thinking, what did I just do? And thankfully I had this training with PCT and understood that PCT was this thing. And the ABCs are forcing people into that PCT mode. And I saw it in real life. You talk about the problems, you’re going to keep talking about the problems. And if you look at the brain, how the biology works, it’s called the caudate.

It’s a little piece of your brain, and it’s built to loop, and that’s really that safety of the species [00:13:00] that I know there’s a lion over there, and I’m trying to build a shelter over here, but my brain keeps looping back to the lion, so that I don’t forget about it, because people are easily distracted, but we have a built in loop that will keep driving us back to our problems, so it’s pretty cool.

What we have to do to be able to leave the PCT thought is we have to actually train the brain. Now the good news is there are certain elements of training mentally speaking that you can actually stop that loop from happening. You can cause it to have atrophy, if you will, and then you strengthen another neural pattern.

And really it is, there’s a couple of things. One would be the mental workout, which is, I talked about a little bit before. It’s probably a little bit too heavy to get into, but it’s only a minute and 40 seconds daily. And I try to do it at least three times a week. And then you’ve got what are called success logs.

And this is 30 seconds, and if you do those three times a week, biologically speaking, if you look at the science, you can’t stop the brain from [00:14:00] moving forward with its ability to be more RSF than PCT. So for me, because I’ve been doing this stuff for so long, When I’m around PCT, it’s just like a, it’s like somebody, I, it’s, I’m so aware of it now.

It’s all over the place. So I try not to let it bother me, but I’m very aware of it. And even in my own world, when it shows up, it feels now foreign to me. I will not put much time or energy thinking, talking, behaving in that PCT mode. Here are the three questions. One. What did I do well today? Write down on a daily basis, do it three times a week, three things you did well.

I’m just curious. When’s the last time you actually recognized what you did well? It’s pretty abnormal. Okay? Second question. What’s one thing you want to improve? Third question. What’s one action step you can take to make the improvement? And if you ask those questions three times a week, you create neural pathways.

Your brain starts to lean into those neural pathways. That’s RSF thinking. What’s going [00:15:00] well? What do I want to improve? How am I going to make the improvement? The normal brain thinks, overlook all the good stuff, and zero in on your imperfections. You want to screw yourself up? You want to ruin your performance?

Let yourself do that. I guarantee you, give me two athletes. One that doesn’t have any training, and one that will just start doing success logs and mental workouts. If they have the same skill set, there will be no comparison in two to three months. No way. And the more pressure you put on it The better my guy’s gonna perform.

Sure. No doubt about it. It’s just changing the biology of the brain. It’s like you, take two athletes with the same skill set, make one of them physically stronger. Who’s gonna do better? Yeah. It’s not even a fair fight. And again, I’ve been really lucky in my career. I was with the Cardinals for six years.

We win two World Series. I started with Auburn baseball a couple years ago. Predicted to be last in the SEC. We took fifth in the country. Started working with SMU’s football team last year. I’m not trying to get [00:16:00] back in the sports world, so people watching this, please, that’s not my goal. But it was a personal thing to get me back in with Auburn and SMU.

But SMU hadn’t won an AAC championship in 40 years. 4 0. And we won it this year. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Thank you. I’m not saying it to pat myself on the back. I’m just saying, it’s biology. If you change biology for the better, You’re going to have a much better chance of winning in head to head competition.

Perfect.

Jeff Pelizzaro: When we get focused on problems, and I’m speaking for myself too, it’s really easy to perseverate on it, like you said, the whole loop, but I feel like it’s also really easy to let that kind of snowball, and you tell a couple stories of how it snowballs from one little thing, and then all of a sudden My life is in a terrible place and I’m, and then the whole neurological and psychological physiology starts to happen too.

So when, one thing that was refreshing to me, that You point out in the book is you don’t have to solve all your problems [00:17:00] either is pick one thing and you don’t have to solve that problem. You have to just take that one little piece and move forward. No

Dr. Jason Selk: doubt. And if you think about whether it be competition or a relationship interaction, you’re right.

It starts with one little mistake and then you’re done. Gets a little bit worse. Your performance gets a little bit worse. Performance gets a little bit worse. And every time performance gets a little bit worse, obviously the problem gains more and more momentum. So all you have to realize is And this is the hardest part is, you got to be able to recognize when it’s happening.

That’s the hardest part because biologically you’re trying to recognize something that you’re built to do. It’s very difficult. It’s so normal to just get pulled into that caudate loop and let that one little problem or mistake start to snowball. So what we really want to do is, as quickly as we can, [00:18:00] interrupt that loop.

And it’s simple. The interruption, but again, you first have to recognize, Okay, I’m focused on a problem and there is absolutely nothing positive that’s going to come from this. And I want to be very clear when I say this. Because some people believe. That by focusing on the problem, that’s where the value is.

You do your own homework. Find some empirical evidence anywhere. If you find it, please email me because I need to see it. I’ve been searching for 20 years now and I’m just going to tell people there is no empirical evidence that focusing on the problem is going to lead to the solution or improve the performance.

In fact, it’s the absolute contrary. It’s gonna totally start to devastate you. The first step is you gotta recognize, okay, my mind’s focused on the problem. And as easy as it sounds, it’s actually quite difficult. That’s where the training comes in. That’s if you have a little bit of that mental toughness, that neural patterning of the other stuff, this problem [00:19:00] centric pattern starts to seem a little bit foreign.

And then you just simply, with one simple question, you What’s one thing I can do, right now, that could make this better. And I’m a big believer, I tell the Nando Parado story about one inch. Just look for an inch of improvement. Because if there’s a problem, and you can break the problem loop, And start to create momentum forward, then we start to have momentum moving in the right direction instead of momentum moving around in circles, or in this case, the wrong direction.

What is one thing? Start looking for two or three things, we’re screwed. Start looking for the mile of improvement, we’re done. Find one thing, one inch, and you become relentless about one thing, one inch. You’ll love the results. Love the results. You were talking

Jeff Pelizzaro: about the physiological changes, the cortisol, and I would imagine, and this kind of, since reading this, [00:20:00] what I’ve tried to pay attention to is, when I do start to get a little bit of that feeling starting to wor that’s almost you can use that as your trigger, right?

Oh, I’m heading in the wrong path. At least for me, that was like, okay. I gotta, I got my 60 seconds. I gotta now pull out my sheet and figure out what’s the one thing.

Dr. Jason Selk: Yeah, so if you just think right now, in the last 24 hours, how often have you experienced stress? You don’t have to answer.

It’s a little bit rhetorical, but I want the listeners to think too. Were there three or four times that jump out? Was it one time that lasted for a couple hours? Was it 20 times, and anytime you experience that stress, you know your brain’s focused on the problem. We’re not even biologically able to experience stress, anxiety, fear, anger, depression, guilt.

Those are what I call the nasty six. You can’t experience those without the cortisol. And the cortisol doesn’t go in without the [00:21:00] mind first focusing on a problem. So the alarm system, really the built in biological alarm that we all have is, The experience of any negative emotion and you think anytime you experience stress is an opportunity For you to start working on a solution.

You just you know, you got to start looking out for stress and don’t give yourself permission stress gets a really bad name stress is actually if you think about it on a one to ten scale one two, three and four levels of stress Without them, we’re dead. I drove over here and I’m not the, I was on the phone playing on the radio on the way over here and without two or three, on that level of stress.

I’m going all over, smashing into things. So 1, 2, 3, 4, I would say are healthy levels of stress. You’re not going to feel any negative emotion. It just keeps you on the correct decision making path. 5, 6, 7, [00:22:00] 8, 9, 10, all that. I want people to start viewing as unacceptable. It’s unhealthy. When you start to feel that 10, that’s when you’re self injecting cortisol.

It’s like putting a poison or a toxin in you. That’s when you got to say, okay, wait, stop. I know I’m focused on a problem, I don’t even need to know exactly what the problem is, just here’s the question. What’s one thing I can do right now that could make this one inch better? And start putting your energy into that.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at FirstForm. And this week I want to highlight their Formula One Post Workout Protein Shake. I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym, working all the time with clients. putting on a podcast. It can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis.

And so I know that with the post workout shake, the Formula One, first of all, it’s fast acting. So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger, and repair what you’ve done in the gym. But [00:23:00] also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks.

So be sure to go over to FirstForm. com.

So let’s shift it now to, to the golf world. I know you’ve worked with tons of athletes, I’m sure you’ve worked with quite a few golfers. So how does this show up in, in our lives? On the golf course, in our training sessions, in our practice sessions and, what’s, what are the things that first get us stuck, and then how do we start moving with the

Dr. Jason Selk: RSF?

Alright, so two, and I’ll just generalize here, but have you ever broken a club, Jeff? No. Have you ever thrown a club?

Jeff Pelizzaro: I don’t think so. Okay. But come, but maybe a little,

Dr. Jason Selk: You understand the ground. Yeah, absolutely. That’d be [00:24:00] one thing. Anytime you’re showing anger, where do you think your brain is?

You’re not PCT for sure. There’s no doubt. It’s got a hold of you and you’ve let that, if we’re looking at anger on the one to 10, you’re at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. When you’re throwing clubs, you’re screaming cuss words, you’re grouchy. , any of that stuff, you’re on PCT here. Here’s the other one.

The don’t thinking, don’t. Hit it in the water. Don’t go left. Don’t slice. Don’t screw this up. Here’s another one. Now, it’s not quite as evident, but when you’re starting to calculate the final score. You’re on 16 and you’re saying to yourself if this, then This is where I’m going to be when I get in the clubhouse.

Anytime you’re doing that sort of stuff, any of those three, I would tell you, you got your brain focused on the wrong stuff. And so you, okay what am I supposed to focus on? Because I could say to you all day long, Don’t think about a pink elephant with blue running shoes. And I know people listening, [00:25:00] I just said, don’t think about the pink elephant with blue running shoes, and that’s probably exactly what crossed your mind.

So you gotta, instead of thinking about the pink elephant, you have to have something to think about. So I’ll do it again. This time I’m going to tell you, don’t think about a pink elephant. This time I want you to think, what’s your favorite color? What is your favorite color? Green. Alright, I want you to think about a big, beautiful, green, hot air balloon.

Yeah. Alright, so don’t think about a pink elephant with blue running shoes. Yeah. You got the hot air balloon? Yeah, got it. Don’t let a pink elephant with blue running shoes get into your mind. Yeah. Okay, so RSF is the green hot air balloon. But you obviously, there is value in just not thinking about your problems, but I don’t want to be that professional.

I want to know what’s the most valuable thought control. Part of thought control is stop thinking about the negative and I think when you have like gratitude journals, That’s really good stuff. [00:26:00] Anything other than your problems is a good thing. Because you’re not pushing the cortisol in the bloodstream.

But if I can get the most appropriate solution focused thought, or thought control. So I would, for an athlete, for a golfer, we would come up with what’s called a performance statement. So let me think about a guy I work with who’s actually on the tour. Okay head down, tempo 7. Supinate. Okay, so he just, he wants to look at one dimple on the ball, even when the ball’s gone, his tempo of the backswing for him, he likes it at a seven, and then supinate is just follow through.

So instead of thinking about all the don’ts or all the things that went wrong or all the things that could happen, I want him focused on that one thought. That most causes success for him, and that, in the sports world, would be what I call the performance statement. Every athlete I work with, [00:27:00] we’re going to come up with a performance statement, and then we review that performance statement.

You heard me talk earlier about the mental workout. So we’re just reminding ourselves on a regular basis, we’re training ourselves. To be focused on that one thing throughout competition.

Jeff Pelizzaro: And are there times when you have different performance statements for different, say, different parts of the game?

Putting versus being on the tee

Dr. Jason Selk: box. For sure. So I would want, I would just want a full swing and then putting. So typically with a golfer, I want to have two performance statements. One for each of those.

Jeff Pelizzaro: You mention in the book that we tend to bond with each other over our problems, right? And I’m thinking of golfers, and I’m thinking of being on the golf course, and the way that we talk to each other, the way that we talk to ourselves, and many times it’s jokingly.

But is that impacting how we play?

Dr. Jason Selk: Absolutely, no doubt about it. And it’s no different. You guys are on the 18th hole, but think about, at the workplace. People are hanging around the, the coffee [00:28:00] break room. What do you think they’re talking about? How great life is?

Or are they complaining about problems? Here’s another thing. What about the news? Yeah. I had to, literally, I had to quit watching the news 20 years ago. And it’s a real problem in my house. My wife wants to turn on the today show and it’s just like fingernails on a chalkboard for me because.

All the people want to talk about are the problems. And I’m not saying we don’t have problems. I don’t put my head in the sand. I just know this, that when a problem enters my life, I’m not going to think or talk about it. I’m going to kick its ass. And that’s not what happens on the Today Show. And that’s not what happens when people are on the 18th hole, ruminating about all the things that went wrong out there and laughing about how bad we are as golfers.

I would just tell you. Don’t participate in any of that stuff. That’s not making you better. It’s making you worse. And what you’ll find is your life’s going to be a whole lot better when you stop. Hangin around all these people who all they want to talk about is problems. Which is, [00:29:00] for the most part, just about everybody out there.

So you gotta be a little bit careful with that last piece of advice.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Alright, last little thing I want to touch on before we jump into our final segment of questions is goals. You break down, specifically, long term goals, short term goals. And how long term goals, it’s important to think big, it’s important to, really shoot for the moon, shoot for the stars, but short term goals have to be a little bit more realistic.

And this is the first time that I’ve really seen somebody break it down and talk about why. Your short term goals need to be a little bit more realistic, and you can’t, make some crazy thought of what you’re going to achieve in a short

Dr. Jason Selk: period of time. Yeah, and I really, it’s, everything I do is all just science.

And not textbook science. Textbook is the first place, but then it’s got to be proven in real life. Empirical evidence. I was just watching Stephen Covey. His work I didn’t love the book Seven Habits, but he has a speech, hour long speech on each of the seven habits and it’s the most mind opening.

John Wooden. And Steve and Covey have opened my mind more than any other two [00:30:00] people, but I just watched Covey’s first habit. It was proactive. Be proactive. And I didn’t fully understand it when I first started studying him years ago. And really, what Covey says with the pro, be proactive, is if you don’t have a game plan when you wake up, you’re gonna be just blown around by the wind.

And I think, we’ve talked about PCT and there’s all kinds of reasons that if you don’t have a direction to start the day with, It’s quite likely you’re going to end up in the wrong spot. And so Covey, his concept of be proactive. And he says, it’s the most important of all seven of the habits, which I actually agree.

It’s what I call, you must have a winning game plan. Now he doesn’t really talk about the specifics of what you need to do to be proactive. He’s just saying that if you’re not, you’re going to have real problems. So what I’ve tried to do is again, take science and performance science and really figure out, okay, what.

What really does it mean to be proactive? And [00:31:00] there’s three levels of goals you talked about. I got vision, product, and process. Vision are result oriented goals three years or longer. And I know you have this concept, people have this concept of with goal setting, set it high and hope to get close. You got to also be really careful of this.

There’s no empirical evidence to support that’s a good thing unless it’s in three year or longer periods. In less than three year periods, it’s like the New Year’s resolution. You set a high goal, you have no chance of reaching it, and then you end up just quitting on it. And that’s a really bad thing, because without goals, we are not proactive, we’re reactive.

So you have to have goals. Most people don’t. They don’t know, they’ve never been taught how to effectively set goals. So they’re just, by default, not using goals, which means they’re really going to be starting each day reactive. It’s a really bad thing for the human condition. Anyway, vision would be a product goal, three years or longer.

[00:32:00] Result, when I say product, I mean result. And then your second level of goal would be a product goal, twelve years or closer. And then your third would be Twelve months. Excuse me, I’m sorry, did I say twelve years? Twelve months or closer. And then your third level would be process goals. Process goals are the daily activities that are most important that will cause product and vision results to occur.

Alright, so you might say, if I give you an example, I might say, okay, I’m in sales, and let’s use a golf example. I might say, okay, three years from now, I want to have won three majors. All right, so my product goal this year is I want to win one major. My process goals, and this is where you either win or lose is process.

And most people as they get so focused on the product and they forget the process. Coach Wooden, he popularized this [00:33:00] 30 years ago and science has since confirmed this is your number one way to control for results. Focus on the process. And I would just say, you never want to have more than two or three process goals, but they want to be the most important activity.

So it might be, I’m going to commit to mental workouts and success logs five days a week. I’m going to do strength and conditioning five days a week. And I’m going to follow my coach’s training plan six days a week. And we want to be, in the athletic world. With process goals, you really gotta be close to 100%, especially if you’re trying to compete at the pro level.

In the business world I just tell you, it’s a lot easier if you can get two or three really good process goals in the business world, you go 90%, you’re going to win a major, you’re going to win multiple majors every year. But back in the sports world, the main thing I’d tell people is, when you set goals, vision, product, process, make sure you put the most energy, emphasis, focus, by far, [00:34:00] no comparison on those process goals.

Jeff Pelizzaro: I love it. All right, a couple of closing questions we ask everybody that comes on the show. Just have a little fun. Caddyshack or

Dr. Jason Selk: Happy Gilmore. I’m a huge Chevy Chase fan. I love Bill Murray, so absolutely no doubt about it Caddyshack. But, Adam Sandler held his own in

Jeff Pelizzaro: Happy Gilmore. If you could pick a walk up song to the first T Box, do you play a lot of golf?

Do you play

Dr. Jason Selk: much? It’s interesting. You’re not going to like my answer. The last time I played golf was three days before I opened my private practice, so it’s been, 25, 30 years. Okay, wow. I just, I have spent so much time working, and I also felt, you know what? I’m going to have a lot of clients that are on the tour, they’re trying to get on the tour, and they’re going to want to go play golf if they know I play golf, and I’m going to look like a real fool.

Just I’m not going to go out on the baseball field with any of my players, or the football field, I’m going to keep it on the sidelines no I don’t play. If I had a walk up song, oh I don’t know what’s that Eminem song? I, over the years I’ve had some walk up [00:35:00] songs for speeches what’s the Eminem song?

Lose Yourself? Yeah, Lose Yourself. I really like that one. There was an ACDC song my good friend Cole Hillen put me on to, Thunderstruck, that was a good one. I’d probably go with one of those too. Okay. Maybe Hell’s Bells even, ACDC there, get people rocking a little bit.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Is there a book, aside from the books that you’ve written, that has really meant a whole lot to you, that you tend to recommend to people, or that has just been special for you personally?

Yeah, I

Dr. Jason Selk: think from social standpoint, really from a professional or personal standpoint. Number one book I’ve ever read is Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. It’s written in 1926. The title, I think, Is a little off putting for some people. It’s not about manipulation, right? It really is about influence and the different, manipulation is I get what I want, but you don’t influences.

We both get what we want. That book is so good at teaching social skills of how to get anyone involved. [00:36:00] to get what they want. Everybody wins, the more people that understand those concepts. I literally just bought that

Jeff Pelizzaro: book for my 15 year old son. It’s about as

Dr. Jason Selk: in my opinion, it’s the best that there is.

Best book ever written, in my opinion. Awesome.

Jeff Pelizzaro: If you could pick a dream foursome that you could go play golf with past historical figures, celebrities, whoever it might be, who would you put in your

Dr. Jason Selk: foursome? I’d definitely put Coach Wooden in there. I was able to spend a little time with him before he passed away.

It was enough to make me want so much more. I’d love spend a little time with Lombardi. I think that’d be interesting. I’ve studied him pretty deeply. And if I could get a round of golf with my dad. He passed away three years ago. I’d take it any day of the week. I’d go out and as long as it could take, I’d be out there swinging those clubs.

I love it.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Alright, if we had the 18STRONG jet fueled up and you could take those guys to any course in the world, where are you going to go?

Dr. Jason Selk: I love going to Vegas. They got some good courses [00:37:00] out there and once we get off the course, I can show everybody a good time. I don’t know I wouldn’t mind spending a little time in Ireland.

I heard they have some pretty good courses over in Ireland and Scotland, but Ireland, Scotland, or Vegas. I’ll let those three pick. Perfect.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Is there a social media account that you follow in any realm that you think would be good for the 18STRONG crew to check out? I’d

Dr. Jason Selk: love to say yes, but honestly, I haven’t been on social media for even one second for the last 12 months.

Personally, and I’m not telling people not to be on social media. Personally, my life’s better because I’m not on it. I know I have an account myself, and I know it’s pretty active, but I You know, people manage it for me. I literally couldn’t even get on if I wanted to because I don’t even have passwords to get on.

I don’t follow anyone, not to say that people shouldn’t, but me personally, I’ve found my life’s a little bit better without

Jeff Pelizzaro: social media. No, I think that says a lot. That’s awesome. Alright, last one, and I know that you haven’t played golf in over 25 years. Yeah. But what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been

Dr. Jason Selk: given?

I [00:38:00] think I’d put it The best advice I’ve ever given that I’ve heard people say as a pattern, and it’s a centering breath. Remember, when you’re on the practice range, you really have very little pressure on you. And so it’s easy to hit the ball long and straight. You walk over to the first tee, and all of a sudden, the club’s not quite the same.

And a lot of that has to do with your heart rate. See, when you put yourself in a pressure situation, your biology is built. to elevate your heart rate. When the heart rate elevates, it changes all kinds of things, including the timing of your swing. So what we want to do is keep your heart rate under control.

And I would tell you before, every actual swing, maybe not every practice swing, but every time you’re going to actually swing the club, make contact with the ball, try taking a centering breath. Breathe in for six seconds. Hold for two. Breathe out for seven and chances [00:39:00] are it’s just going to make it so much easier because you’ve trained to swing the club Successfully at let’s say 80 beats a minute and when you put pressure in there that 80 turns into 88, 92 pretty quickly Centering breath will put you back at the 70 so it’ll make it a little bit easier for your training to cause success under pressure.

Six, hold, count. Not as fast as you can, but do the old one Mississippi, two Mississippi, in for six, hold for two, out for seven.

Jeff Pelizzaro: Dr. Sock, thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing. Everybody go check out Relentless Solution Focus. You can find it pretty much everywhere, I would assume.

Thank you for coming on. Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG Podcast. And if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And of course, go follow us over on Instagram, at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart, and play better golf.[00:40:00]

Guest: Dr. Kyle Richmond (Founder: REBUILT Strength & Rehab)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 366
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Listen in as Kyle Richmond from Rebuilt Strength and Rehab joins us to unfold his transformative journey from a chiropractic student to a social media sensation and savvy entrepreneur. Discover how Kyle’s dedication to mobility and athletic performance, carved out a unique niche in chiropractic care. He shares the pivotal role Instagram reels played in expanding his reach and the surprising ways his online surge propelled his practice into virtual consultations and impactful partnerships. Kyle’s story is a testament to the boundless potential of social media in nurturing a business and connecting with clients in today’s digital landscape.

During our conversation, Kyle and I exchange thoughts on modern chiropractic practices and the shift in public perception from pain relief to wellness and performance. We emphasize the critical importance of patient education and self-management, providing insights into comprehensive treatment strategies that transcend traditional adjustments. We also delve into the integration of mobility training in fitness regimes, clarifying the distinction between flexibility and mobility, and advocating for its role in enhancing movement control and injury prevention across various demographics.

Wrapping up, we tackle the emerging issue of back pain among the younger generation, attributing it to the sedentary habits linked with technology use. Kyle and I highlight the benefits of incorporating simple mobility exercises, like Controlled Articular Rotations (CARS), to counteract these lifestyle patterns. We also touch upon the nuances of soft tissue therapy in clinical practice, debunking common myths and underscoring its genuine merits. Plus, don’t miss out on the lighter side of our discussion, where we share personal favorites and envision hypothetical celebrity golf matches, adding a personal flair to the professional discourse.

(00:04) Successful Practice Through Social Media

Dr. Kyle Richmond shares his journey from chiropractic school to social media influencer and entrepreneur, leveraging Instagram reels to grow his practice and connect with clients.

(08:48) Golf Swing Improvement and Chiropractic Practice

Improving golf swing, modern chiropractic care, education, maintenance, and shift in public perception of chiropractic services.

(14:46) Mobility Training for Strength’s Importance

Mobility is crucial for fitness, as it involves active control and strength, benefits all ages, improves joint stability, and complements other forms of training.

(20:25) Technology’s Impact on Back Pain

Mobility, specifically Controlled Articular Rotations, is crucial for joint health in aging populations and athletes, while sedentary habits contribute to back pain in youth.

(32:03) Importance of Movement and Rehabilitation

Strategies for desk workers and golfers include thoracic extension exercises and hip mobility techniques.

(42:19) Neural Connections and Bypassing Muscle Guards

Nature’s protective mechanism, moderate stretching, and consistent exercise can improve mobility without extensive pre-workout routines.

(47:22) History of REBUILT and Parting Questions

Benefits of soft tissue therapy, clinic branding, and personal insights on movies, golf, and books.

Atomic Habits – James Clear

The Dip – Seth Godin

@Brock11Johnson

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

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To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

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0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode number 366, with Kyle Richmond from Rebuilt Strength and Rehab. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we know that every golfer deserves to play better, longer. This week we have Kyle Richmond from Rebuilt Strength and Rehab on the show, and Kyle’s a chiropractor up in the Chicago area that really I found by watching his Instagram videos. He’s posting a lot of great content in the world of chiropractic performance and especially mobility. He’s been talking a lot about the importance of being able to work on your mobility where it has a purpose and it’s going to help your athletic ability to play golf better, but really just to move better in overall life, and how you can do that with intent as opposed to just working on a bunch of stretching and flexibility exercises. Kyle’s posts are very popular in our world in the golf and fitness world and so it was cool to finally get to meet him and talk to him about his strategies, not just in the training facility, but also on how he built his Instagram account and how he built his following, how he has now turned that into a full brick and mortar business, that he’s starting to work with clients in his own facility. So you’re going to really enjoy this episode with Kyle Richmond.

Our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18STRONG.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18STRONG.com, slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. So let’s get to this week’s interview.

Kyle Richmond, welcome to the 18strong podcast. Yeah, for sure. So this is cool. This is the first time we’ve ever met connected, really, and one of the things that I love about what we do here. One of my favorite things at 18strong is like trying to find people that we really respect. We see them doing great things online, and your post just kept coming up in front of me on Instagram. You’ve posted quite a few of your things, and so it’s great to connect. It’s cool to see what you’re doing, and I like to think of us as kind of a lens that our golfers can go to, as like a trusted resource, because we know that if whatever’s on our page, if it’s us posting somebody else, it’s because it’s stuff that we like, it’s stuff that we trust, so you can do an awesome stuff. So first, thanks for doing that, thank you.

0:03:07 – Kyle Richmond
I appreciate that. That’s incredible. The whole thing about now social media is that the people I’ve met, the rooms I’ve been in and stuff that I didn’t even expect I was the guy coming out of school like I don’t need social media, that’s stuff. That’s kind of done. I don’t want to do all these things, but now it’s like it’s really what my practice is like, how it revolved around now, which is amazing.

0:03:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So give me a little bit of that story, because you were saying you’re just kind of recently out of chiropractic school the last two years. You’ve just opened your new practice, which we’ll get into that too, but tell me how this kind of snowballed into. You have a very big following on social media and you said your practice really revolves a lot around that.

0:03:48 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, so I graduate in October of 21 from chiropractic school and I had an Instagram account that I just used to post like my crossbow workouts, family stuff, whatever it was. And then, as I’m getting towards the end of school, I’ve still not used it. I’m thinking, like I see people on there, I don’t think it’ll be that valuable. Whatever I graduate and over that year I start posting something. So, yeah, I worked for it was like, hey, you should post some things. You know. Really, the best way to show, or the best thing about it, was to show hey, yes, I’m a chiropractor and everyone has the predisposition of like I know what a chiropractor is. Yeah, been there, done that. I’m like well, I do things differently. Let me post and kind of show that. I post it for like a year on and off of, like maybe once or twice a week, whatever I have family stuff, my dog, gym, mobility, you name it.

October 22 comes around. I’m like All right, I saw this challenge post the reel every single day for the whole month. I’ll try. Um, learned a lot that month, got really efficient at it how to post, when to post, do all these things. I still just continue to do that every day until mid February happens. I’m, we’re out to dare. I pick up my phone and there’s like 2000 misnotifications like this. I don’t ever get that. I get like 30 likes a day maybe, and that’s like a big deal.

0:04:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah.

0:04:54 – Kyle Richmond
I had a reel that just started going viral and it started getting like hundreds of thousands of views and likes and my my follower counter from like 2000 to 10,000, like three days, oh my gosh. Oh, okay, I’m like this is this is really happening, like I saw the K after it and like this is this is crazy. Um, so I ran with it. I started doing more. I got people reaching out. I’m working with people virtually doing all these things. Um, fast forward to about June of 2023 and I have about 30,000 followers. I’m making money off social media in terms of like, ads and clients, all these things. Um, I was at the point where I was unhappy at my old job. I was ready to go on my own. Well, I was fortunate. I had an income that said, hey, if you go on your own, your overhead is all like you’re, you’re ready, you don’t have there’s almost no risk, which I know there’s risk going to get business, but that made it easy. And then everyone around here knew of me because of social media.

Like you said, I said, people said man, I’ve seen your videos all over the place and now I’m following you or I come in as a patient, um, but that was really what kind of kickstarted things. And from there I’ve used it to meet incredible people, um, companies, all these things I can get into but it’s been nothing short of absolutely just amazing.

0:06:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome. So give us a little bit of your background. Even before Cairo school, like sports wise, would you? You know, did you play a bunch of sports? I know you, um, were in CrossFit and personal training and all of those things. So give us a little background on yourself.

0:06:17 – Kyle Richmond
Okay. So growing up I played a little bit of everything, um, but gravitate towards soccer. Soccer was my everything from about early junior high through high school. I thought I was going to play in college. It was kind of always the goal. Um, I knew I wanted to be a chiropractor as early as like my freshman year of high school because I had an injury I separated my shoulder real bad playing soccer and it was a chiro PT mix that helped me rehab and I’m like, oh, this is awesome. So I knew I wanted to do that. I got towards the end of high school looking at colleges and I was like, well, I know, graduate school is very expensive, it’s very time consuming, and the team I was looking to play for is like, well, you can’t work or do anything, it’s just soccer. So I kind of, you know, I made the choice to give it up, um, but then I found CrossFit, which was a way to still be active and do stuff competitively.

Um, I did CrossFit for 10 years all the way up through COVID. Um, I personal trained, did all these things and that’s where my love for fitness and exercise kind of blended with the chiropractic Cause I treat very similar to I hate to always say like more, like a PT, it’s not just coming to get adjusted, there’s. I do manual therapy, I love it time and place. But a lot of this stuff is, hey, exercise base. So if it wasn’t for CrossFit and personal training and learning how to coach people, I think, is also another huge skill that helped me as a chiropractor. You’re coaching people all day long, you’re not just sitting there, hey, how are you Crack, crack, crack, you know out the door. But so it was soccer and then CrossFit.

Um, I’ve dabbled in other sports growing up and it’s funny, cause golf is not my sport. Uh, I am, I am so bad. It was hand-eye coordination stuff, like extension of the hand, baseball, hockey, golf. I just was uncoordinated. In that I’ve gotten better, but it’s still a long ways away. Do you play a little bit? Uh, not as of recently, well, when I was in graduate school, like I wanted, but it was like, do I buy groceries or do I go play golf? Yeah, right, it was. It was really like that’s what it was for a while. Um, I need two more. I’ve done just some indoor stuff here, but uh, that is on my list. I have the golf clubs in my garage from my dad, like that is the next big thing, now that I have a little more disposable income, in a sense, and a little more time. You know, owning a business you don’t have that much time when you start, but I have a little more now so it’s on my list.

0:08:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So where you’re located, you’re Frankfurt, illinois, is that right?

0:08:27 – Kyle Richmond
And so where is that in?

0:08:29 – Jeff Pelizzaro
in relation to oh so Chicago.

0:08:32 – Kyle Richmond
It’s Southwest Chicago by about 30, 45 minutes, but I mean you are so close to everything, the city’s right there, all the North suburb, south suburbs, it’s just all meshed into one giant area probably similar to high state, probably outside of St Louis’s right. It’s just just city of hot city.

0:08:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, Okay. Well, we got plenty of friends in the Chicago area that can help you with that golf swing. Hey. I need it, trust me.

0:08:53 – Kyle Richmond
I can hit it far. Do I know where it’s going? Nope.

0:08:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’m sure the swing speed isn’t an issue for you, it’s the. It’s the club face control, it’s getting that, getting that club on the ball.

0:09:03 – Kyle Richmond
All that? Yeah Well, cause, like, the best piece of advice I got was hey, let the club do the work for you, Cause I’m just going up there and just trying to just smash as hard as I can. You’re like you don’t need to do that. That helped me a ton, but I need I need some work.

0:09:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So let’s talk a little bit about your practice kind of your mentality working with clients, because you mentioned, you’re not what people tend to think of when they think chiropractic. I think that’s really changing too. You actually just made a post recently about you know, should you go chiro or PT, and it was really like a you know end of the post was like no, it just depends on who you know, how that person treats you and what their philosophies are and everything so. But I really do think and I have a couple of great buddies, a lot of people that have been on the show here that are they’re not what you think of when you think chiropractic. I think the old school is yeah, come in, crack your neck, pop your back, but there’s so much to it. So when somebody comes in to see you, give us just an idea of what that might look like.

0:09:57 – Kyle Richmond
Okay. So first I like to set the expectations, because either they’ve come in because they’ve heard a good referral that I’m different, or they’ll come in expecting chiropractic care, in a sense of like they just want the adjustment and go home. So I have to first sit down day one, take the entire history, kind of give them a little more of like what to expect in terms of treatment. Hey, like a lot of the education on it, I’m gonna send you home with some things and just make sure one were a good fit. I do get some people that aren’t happy with that because they do want to just get adjusted, go home, which can I do that sometimes.

Sure, it’s not my favorite, it’s not what I wanted to show people, so they’ll come in, go through the history a lot of test exams, get baselines, get assessments, which they’re also like. This is new. I’m moving around doing things, maybe trying to elicit pain, seeing what happens if we do this, and by the end of it, they’ve been moving and doing things for almost an entire hour. But it’s a mix of exercise. It’s a mix of yeah, their soft tissue, manual therapy, adjustments, or usually later in treatment care.

If I got some of the ridiculous fear, some sort of like referral based pain, I’m not even manipulating the spine half the time, it’s just showing them. You know, self education, what can you do outside of here? How can you get back to your fitness? How can you get you know people think they can’t go to the gym because they’re they have back pain, like, hey, you know this might be gone in a couple weeks, but let’s still get you doing things.

And I think that is the most valuable thing of what I do is making sure they have the confidence and the tools to go and do things outside of here, because very few cases probably do require a ton of rest and a ton of like hey, let’s be careful. You know those are here and there, but a lot of it’s just self self management. Really, you know I want to see a handful of times I do get more of the maintenance based stuff, but then you know they come through my door three, four, five visits and then guess what? Now they’re referring for other people and they go hey, this is different, it’s a chiropractor I get people don’t even know I’m a chiropractor because I’m a little hesitant on it. You know my parents friends won’t come in here. It’s like, oh, your son’s chiropractor.

0:11:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah.

0:11:49 – Kyle Richmond
I know what that is. My please no.

0:11:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, when somebody comes to to work with you, do you have some people that now just kind of come on a regular basis, more for almost kind of the training side of things, as opposed to you know not the the typical hey, come back, we got a cracky next week, but it’s it’s more like do you have clients that have been with you for a while. They’re really just coming in to get their training in.

0:12:11 – Kyle Richmond
Yes and more. Those are like my active people, right, they go to the gym every single day. They want to stay involved in what they’re doing and usually something comes up. My next visit, hey, I was doing shoulder press and I got this like just weird tightness in my shoulder. Awesome, let’s assess it, see maybe where you lack things, because, again, I’m not doing head to toe every single time. Someone comes in what their main can play as we focus on. But then people that do want to just have to be coached through things, hey, I know I lack in rotation my hip. Well, let’s keep working on that month over month and just keep improving it, because we know it’s going to take time. We know you’re always improving and, god, aches and pains happen all the time. And you know I do have more of the maintenance see based things and I think that’s something that’s really typical.

Chiropractic is maintenance care. So people already see chiropractic go. I got to go for my monthly maintenance. I think it’s a blessing in the curse, sometimes obviously for business. You know you want to have your recurring, you know patience, but then again too, I don’t want them to become fully reliant. If they’re not getting value for me on that maintenance visit, then I don’t want them to feel like they have to come in. I’m very, you know, I really like to communicate that with people that you know you don’t have. You’re not forced to come in just because you’ve been under my care. It’s not a lifelong sentence, but if you find value, then we can make things work.

0:13:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I know I have. So you know, I started out in the more the physical therapy world, the clinical world, and now I’m more on the fitness side. We’ll call it performance side, right, because it? Because the PT always blends in, but it I’m not doing traditional clinical PT where a doc refers them over. It’s more on the fitness side. But you know, some people they just want that accountability, like oh no, I have an appointment with Kyle at this time every week and they know that they’re they’re going to get it done and that’s. That’s their way of keeping themselves accountable, which is awesome and it doesn’t mean like I’m going in to get readjusted every single week to get everything back in balance, right.

0:13:54 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, yeah. So hey, were you doing that stuff for your shoulder that we talked about three weeks ago? Like yeah, I know, dude, because I know I’m gonna come see you and I always think like they’re wasting their time and money. They’re like I don’t want to do that. So, yeah, the accountability. And that’s again going back to being a coach. Right, you are coaching these people, you’re holding them accountable, and that’s what a lot of people in fitness really want.

0:14:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about mobility, because it seems like you really hone in on a lot of mobility work in your posts. From you know, from what I’m seeing, and I have a feeling, you’re going to be able to give me a good definition of mobility versus flexibility, and you do a great job of saying like, hey, instead of doing this, which is what you know, this version of whatever, this is actually what mobility looks like. So what is the difference to you between mobility, flexibility, for our audience? And then we’ll dive a little deeper into that.

0:14:45 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s funny because I’m known around here as, like, the mobility guy.

You’re the guy who posts all the little stuff. At first I did it because it you know, yes, it’s a little flashy, there’s some things that not everyone needs to do, but it caught attention, it showed it was just something different. But I do like to preach that flexibility, mobility. Flexibility is like your passive range of motion, how far I can move you, how far you can maybe stretch into something. Mobility that’s the control part, the strength, the actual training stuff. Mobility work should be challenging. Like you should get sore, you should. There should be some strain and some effort. If you’re just sitting in a stretch, you know that we have to define the goals and I think that’s what I like to show people is you have to go. I’ve done mobility work and you see them over there with a banded distraction. They’re just kind of sitting in a stretch. I’m like, well, how about we do a lift off instead? And now you’ll see the change. So I preach a lot of mobility.

I think it’s very scalable. I don’t think everyone has to do it. I think a lot of people can benefit from it. I think it’s a low level entry for even just exercise. I can have someone doing a hip car or a hip mobility piece that might be scared of even doing an RDL or a squat. Well, hey, let’s just start super low level basic stuff and then I can progress you to more fitness. So I think the scalability I can train athletes at the pro level to. My 90-year-old grandparents come in here and just need to learn how to move their leg. They don’t even know where the control is. So, yeah, there’s the big thing, that kind of discern, you know, flexibility and mobility for people.

0:16:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So when we’re working on different joints, we’re working on the ability to control those joints. Really, that’s what it boils down to, right. How does that relate to increasing strength? Because, you know, when we go to the gym, obviously everybody wants to go do something where they’re going to get stronger. I want a deadlift, I want a squat, I want a split squat but doing some of the things that you’re showing, some of these smaller single joint related things, but working on how to control those, can really be a huge boost to your end-all strength. When it goes back to those exercises, right, agreed.

0:16:39 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, you break down the parts I like to look at. Maybe somebody doesn’t have a great spot as like an eye test. Well, let’s look at where your hip moves. Let’s look how your ankle moves. Let’s look how maybe your low back moves. If we see big deficits in that or places that you can’t control or really use those muscles to the best of your ability, well, let’s break it down, gain the mobility in that tissue, get stronger there, and then we bring you back to that exercise.

I think maybe a lot of people don’t understand that too, as they think they see the mobility and that’s all they ever have to do, that’s the only thing you can do. Well, no, let’s use it to get you back to where you need to. And guess what? The best thing now is the full range of motion squats, full range of motion, lunges, whatever that is. It doesn’t just mean the mobility is like the only thing. And I think a lot of people get surprised when they see my training and go well, you’re doing like bodybuilding and deadlifts and yeah, I show that I do mobility I integrate with all my training because I do like to do it, but it’s not the end-all be-all. So I like to really tell people that it’s not the only thing you have to do, but it helps.

0:17:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that’s where, when people go to places like Instagram and they think that that’s their education, right, they’re going to see a lot of the things that people like you and I we put it out there because it’s important stuff and you mentioned this too. But some of it is to catch an eye. You know it’s not something that you make up just to make up, but some of it is things that you may not see a normal person that doesn’t have any background in fitness or mobility or Cairo or whatever and it gives different ideas on ways to work through those things. But, yeah, like it’s not that sexy to post a split squat every, you know, all the time, or a deadlift, so you got to do some of those things. For those of you listening Know that that’s not the only piece, right, you have to do the other big things, the other big rocks, but these are the things that you can do to help kind of maximize and increase your efficiency in those joints, in those tissues.

So obviously you deal a lot in the world of injury too, right, and doing these types of exercises, especially when you’re working on some of the specific strength in the joints, that’s what’s really building some resiliency to right to help you prevent some of those injuries 100%.

0:18:49 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, there’s two types of people that come to see me People that are in pain or people that know they need to work on something. Hey, I’m just really stiff in this joint. Like we can break that down, find a low hanging fruit, improve that, and if you have more stable, controlled, strong joints, the likelihood of injury is definitely reduced. Right, I like to say we can’t prevent injury. We can mitigate it, though.

I can’t guarantee, just because you’ve been doing ankle mobility, you’re not going to spray your ankle, but that you know grade three sprain might only be a one or two then because you’ve gotten stronger there. So there is benefit in that.

0:19:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, as you’re working with different clients and you know you said you run with you run the gamut as far as who you end up working with, from professional athlete to, you know, those in their 80s, 90s. What are some of the things when you are helping somebody work through either an injury or let’s even kind of focus a little bit more on, maybe, mobility and gaining more control, what are some techniques that you can share with, just kind of, you know, the general public? Not something that needs real specific detail, but some techniques that are maybe something they haven’t heard of or they don’t really know or understand what the reason is that you’re doing them.

0:19:58 – Kyle Richmond
Okay, so I love that because one thing you’ll see a lot of my page and maybe people have heard about this in terms of mobility is cars. Cars stand for controlled, articulate rotations. What it is is moving your joint to its maximum capacity in terms of range of motion. So it’s a full, it’s a joint circle in a sense. The reason I love that because you can take it from basic teaching someone how to move their joint, just learning where it is in space, to training it by loading it up, making it really difficult, taking out compensations. So a good example would be a hip.

Most seniors or older adults lack rotation in their hip One. They don’t use it. We don’t train that very often, so it degrades a little quicker. I can start to one very basic, just learning how to rotate their hip. Now, the professional athlete that can move their hip phenomenal. Well, let’s make you stronger, better in that. Let’s wait it, let’s take out any low back compensation. So cars is like that, super scalable. It could be a very small range of motion, a larger range of motion, and I can be as nitpicky as I want, or hey, I just use it. You’re moving your body every day. It’s a low barrier to entry for exercise. I’m not going to tell someone go home and do RDLs every like every morning for your low back and hips, because as an 80 year old they go. I don’t know what that is, I don’t care. But if you show them just how to move their hip and rotation, they’re more likely to buy in on that, and then again you can scale it to being very difficult for some people.

0:21:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love that, yeah, being able to, because we use cars a lot and in fact we here, at 18STRONG, we have what we call our EFDs are every F and days, and it’s mainly some cars I went through you know I’m FRC and functional range conditioning and so went through and so we implemented yeah, a lot of the cars just shoulders, necks, the scapular muscle, you know, are the scaps doing all those little things and doing them, the consistency of doing them to make such a big difference, especially for our population of golfers, where they’re constantly Well, most of them are probably sitting at a desk most of the week and then going out on a Saturday morning or Sunday or golf trip and they’re trying to play 18, 36 holes. And so speak to the importance of the consistency of getting your body moving and doing those things. And I love the fact that you said you can scale the cars and make them as hard as you want to.

0:22:07 – Kyle Richmond
Really, yes, and I like to use the phrase like use it or lose it. A lot of people will be like hey, I have a hard time putting my coat on. Well, how often do you reach back behind you in the shoulder extension? They’re like maybe every time I put my coat on the winter but then six months go by and I haven’t put that on. Cars are a way to kind of maintain what you have. So for a lot of people who, as they’re aging, you can maintain your range of motion a lot simpler. But I ask people, how do you take your neck into a full range of motion extension, right? Almost nobody looks up like fully into cervical extension. You go, well, you wonder why you lose. Your body is going to start grading that and doesn’t want to. So cars are a way to maintain that range of motion.

0:22:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What are some of the most common injuries and issues that you’re seeing on a regular basis?

0:22:54 – Kyle Richmond
Well, as a chiropractor, there’s a lot of back pain. I’ve been because, for whatever reason, like and I get it, people think spine, they go chiropractors. Yeah, people have to really tell them like, do you do ankle stuff? Like, of course I do?

0:23:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I hope that I make that apparent.

0:23:06 – Kyle Richmond
But low back pain. I think I’m seeing that even a lot more in the younger population and I don’t know if it’s because of postcode or just technology. In general, I have treated more 14 to 17 year olds with low back pain than I’ve ever probably seen before. Outside that, a lot of shoulders, a lot of hips from people being active. You do see it all. Maybe not as much hands and feet stuff, but the extremities low back pain, ridiculous, these down the arm. That’s very common for us.

0:23:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you are looking at somebody’s back, are there some commonalities that you’re seeing? And actually, let’s talk about that 14 to 17 year old population, because you know many of us. We were all a 14 to 17 year old, but many of us have 14 to 17 year olds now. I’m thinking of my older son, and my daughter will soon be in that demographic too. What do you think? You mentioned technology. What are some of the things that you’re seeing that’s contributing to that back pain? Because, as you and I both know, typically when you have back pain, that doesn’t mean that you have a bad back. There’s something else, right?

0:24:10 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, usually these kids are sitting in flexion, like excessive flexion or just sustained positions. All day long they sleep flex, which is no problem, right. But then we get up, we get ready for school, we’re sitting there for breakfast, we sit on the bus or in the car, we sit at our desk all day. We go back home. Most kids are now on their iPads or computers, even doing homework. For longer periods of time they’re sitting. If they’re not in extracurricular activities, which I do see a lot of, then they’re sitting even more.

Sitting isn’t bad. It’s not moving your spine as the issue. So I see a lot of people who are, you know, flexion intolerant. As kids and I remember being that age and you were going outside, you were doing things, You’re in every single sport you weren’t sitting on your phone when you were bored, you were going around the house and doing things or playing games. Now there’s no reason They’ll just sit there for hours and hours on end and I see that even to my adults, all the desk workers there’s a lot of similarities. It’s sitting and it’s an unfortunate thing.

0:25:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, unfortunately, again, I’m picturing my two kids and you know those games the Fortnite, the you know watching the silly little videos and it is. It’s a shame that it’s not as normal for them to just go out and play. They have more structured times, like to go to practice, and you know the different structured activities where it’s run by adults, but there’s so much less just going out and goofing around and climbing trees and you know we played roller hockey day in and day out and everything, yeah, everything. And I think that, as much as we specialize in these different sports and, yeah, these kids are getting more narrowed focus and the coaching is getting better in those sports, but I really think that they’re missing out a lot of that athleticism and just overall human function by just going down one rabbit hole.

0:25:55 – Kyle Richmond
I agree. I see that with it’s getting really bad in baseball, baseball, softball. These kids are all year round one sport, 100 miles an hour in that direction, and you want them to get exposed to different things. Guess what, if you’re not doing a lot of rotation, you’re not doing a lot of extension, whatever it is in that joint, you’re going to lose your. It becomes sensitive to that pain or that range of motion and you know, yes, I did a lot of just soccer and looking back, I wish I did other things. I wish I stayed more in basketball. I wish I did that I think. Correct me if I’m wrong.

But the Super Bowl, I think it was like maybe last year or two years ago they said, hey, high percentage of these guys in the Super Bowl played multiple sports in high school and college. Well, that’s super important. And I think that now you get the coaches at the high school and college level that almost demonize it if you’re not full time. I wasn’t allowed to kick a football in high school because you need to only play soccer. You weren’t allowed to do that, even though it would have been probably for college. Great, if you got good at kicking, you could open up a lot more doors that way, but they’re just getting more narrow minded in terms of sports.

0:26:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I mean the best athlete, the best soccer player I ever played with, because soccer is my sport as well Taylor Taylor Twelman, if you know who that is, was on my high school soccer team and, yeah, then went on to be the leading scorer in the MLS, played over in Germany, but I just I was.

St Louis has this cool thing at the History Museum right now. It’s a. It’s a display all about St Louis soccer history, and so I was reading a little background on Taylor that I didn’t know. But he was offered, I believe, a full ride to play baseball and was invited to try out for I forget what professional baseball organization, but turned it down to go play collegiate soccer. And it’s like here’s a guy you know that played at the highest of levels and, yeah, he was going through both sports, all through high school or all through grade school, all through high school and you golfer wise, some of the best golfers out there, some of them the most powerful golfers, were all multiple sport athletes. It’s just kind of crazy that everything has become so specialized.

0:27:53 – Kyle Richmond
Even you see it in fitness too. Right, people are only doing bodybuilding, they’re only doing powerlifting. What we see over time is, if you don’t diversify your training, you run into more injuries, long term health issues, like I see. Power lifters are another one I treat a lot right Squat, bench, deadlift, some accessory but they are moving so just in a sagittal plane all day long. There’s no rotational capacity, there’s not that stuff, and we see them degrade a lot quicker. So it’s, it’s just that hyper specificity. There’s a time and place for it, but like you sound athletes, like there’s a lot of these guys with Patrick Mahomes baseball, football, like he was great, he was great at both. A lot of these guys can go to multiple sports. You can you ever see it? They drop football players and they can. They can shoot a basketball better than 90% of people and they don’t play basketball. But they’re just great athletes. They’re great movers.

0:28:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it’s funny. A lot of those guys cannot swing a golf club, though, which is which I find very interesting. You watch some of the NBA guys. Steph Curry is in it, definitely an exception. He’s a very good golfer, but if you’ve ever seen LeBron swing a golf club, it’s it’s worse than. Charles Barkley, I think.

0:28:54 – Kyle Richmond
It’s funny, I never even thought of that.

0:28:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, yeah, so have you worked with many golfers in your clinic at all. I mean, do you have any?

0:29:02 – Kyle Richmond
come through A lot of just you know your day to day, your office workers that love to golf, and a lot of them, you know I see a lot with neck issues. They can’t rotate their neck very well and they go in there. Here they go and they go through it and they end up getting the huge spasms or low backs too, because they can’t even control their lumbar spine and not just rotation but flexion extension. I see a lot of that and that’s more of your maintenance. He kind of people like, hey, you want to go golf, make sure you’re still doing these things because you might feel great. But guess what, you go out there, play 18 holes. You haven’t played a while and things are going to light up on you. So golfing is. I do treat a lot of golfers.

0:29:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So so that population right there, I think, is really, aside from a lot of the golf fitness professionals that listen to the show, I think the population you’re talking about is really who’s listening to the show too. You know a lot of guys that are my age mid forties, you know, maybe late thirties to mid fifties. They are now like really diving into. I want to play more golf. I’ve got family stuff I’ve. You know I’m limited for time, so you mentioned a couple like the neck, the low back. What are a couple things? If a, if a golfer comes in to you, what are a couple things that you look at and say like, hey, these are the big rocks that we need to kind of look at, because I know you’re going to be swinging a club and rotating and doing all these different activities.

0:30:20 – Kyle Richmond
So I always go full assessment spine, cervical, thoracic lumbar. The biggest thing with cervical is make sure they have rotation more than anything, because they’re spotting that ball. They’re not just moving their whole upper back with everything as they go, they’re keeping that there and they have to be able to look over their shoulders. So I’ll ask these guys hey, can you look over their shoulder? They’re like that’s about it.

And then you expect them to take all their force and rotate as hard as they can. Lumbar spine too, in terms of a lot of them are stuck in extension, like they’re super hyper extended, and then good luck trying to rotate the lumbar spine as you’re jammed into extension. So we work on being able to flex the lumbar spine, work on just the breeding to calm down some stuff, learn maybe some better stabilization strategies, and then thoracic spine is in there too, usually just mobilizing them into extension. Most of them are so stiff from their desk jobs that you can’t even rotate because they don’t even, they can’t flex or extend it. It is like a block of wood just between cervical lumbar. So it really is full spine for a majority of them.

0:31:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, the rotation component is it’s such a big deal in golf, right, but when your body’s not moving properly, your back is naturally going to rotate in the wrong spot. So what are some of the things that you help them do with the thoracic spine? Because really you mentioned getting more extension. If the thoracic spine so for those of you listening, you know basically your rib cage, the area of your rib cage but on the backside of your body if that can’t extend backwards a little bit, it definitely it can’t rotate well too, right? So are there any little tips or drills that you could kind of talk through? I know it’s hard to do on a, on a podcast, but a couple of things that they could think about doing on either daily basis, weekly basis, just for some of that maintenance piece.

0:32:03 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, I think a big one is sprinkling that in throughout their day. A lot of them who are desk workers. I typically have them do some sort of thoracic extension at their desk. I take them hey, put your hands behind your neck, bring your elbows in front a little bit and lean back over that chair into extension. Let’s do maybe a set of 10 every couple hours throughout your day to help loosen that.

So we know we need just more time in that position because a lot of them will just get to the course or I’ll even have them take their golf club behind them and get a little extension there by say, hey, if you can sprinkle it in throughout your day when you’re sitting there, that’s going to help, I think, more than anything to get ahead of that. We do some cervical extension stuff too, but I think just sprinkling it and making that more of a movement habit, because they’re just sitting in so much kyphosis all day long, which is not a bad thing, which is now you’re limiting yourself into extension and then guess what, they borrow somewhere else to get there.

0:32:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at 1st Phorm, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post workout protein shake.

I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis, and so I know that with the post workout shake the Formula One first of all, it’s fast acting.

So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym. But also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks. So be sure to go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So, again, go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG. Let’s talk the hips a little bit, because that’s another big piece that I find can be just kind of rock solid and hard for people to work through.

So, hip wise, how important are those for the golf swing?

0:34:08 – Kyle Richmond
Your interpretation on your hip is maybe one of the most important, especially rotating the pelvis in relationship to the hip right. A lot of them can move femur on pelvis the other way around. It’s really difficult. So I’ll put them in a lot of like block positions. Hey, can you keep this block here against the wall? Will you open up your hips Just seeing how they can move? But I do start with just looking at the hip joint in general, external to rotation, seeing where can they actually passively get there, so flexibility, and then can they actually move there. And then I just haven’t break down their swing, like let’s just go watch you swing and see where you’re super limited on. And there’s a bunch of tests on that. But I think the hip internal rotation gets missed a lot. Obviously, external still important. Having a hip that rotates is very important, but I think the pelvis on top of the femur is one of the most important.

0:34:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s a good point, because we do tend to see people doing internal rotation drills where they are so moving the foot, moving the leg, and the pelvis is staying stable, but you’re saying, you know, almost fix the leg and then move the pelvis on top of that, which is really how you’re moving when you’re in the golf swing.

0:35:14 – Kyle Richmond
Right, and then you can actually give them a. Hey, can you control your lumbar spine on top of this? Because usually you lock in the lumbar spine or anything else and then you just move the foot. Well, yeah, the femur is where we’re getting rotation, but it almost isn’t the same. Well, it’s not. It’s not the same rotation you are when you’re in a golf swing. You’re moving everything else relatively because your feet are still staying there and you’re moving everything on top of it. So I like to give them both.

0:35:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you talked a little bit about the cars earlier. I would also assume that you and I know this because I’ve seen on your page you do a lot of what’s called pales and rails and some of those different you know, kind of FRC related kind of movements and techniques, what is going on when you’re doing, and if you could explain kind of pales and rails and layman’s terms, what’s going on when you’re doing those and why are those so important as opposed to just the cars which you were talking about before?

0:36:05 – Kyle Richmond
Right, so that’s a phenomenal question. So cars I think of as a way to maintain your range of motion or at least like a little check to see how you’re feeling and how you’re moving. We don’t use cars to gain more range of motion, right? We have to have some sort of really more aggressive or maximum contraction strength effort to gain range of motion. Okay, so that’s why it’s important. So a pales and rails it’s a way to do isometrics and you can get more control on that range of motion. And you can get more control on that range of motion and get stronger. You can produce force in those motions.

I don’t show a lot of them. One they’re usually really boring to post because you’re just sitting in a position. They don’t understand it and it’s really hard to explain that in a quick eight second reel. I usually like to explain those more. One along with people. I use them a lot in my own videos. I use them a lot in my own videos. I use them a lot in my own practice for people. It’s a great an. Isometrics is a great way to just start reducing pain and gaining range of motion. But you have to do those to gain active range of motion and control more space, cars maintenance. So you have to separate those and then you know we can go and hold the pain levels and all that stuff. But that’s the best way to kind of discern those.

0:37:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Can you take it, take a joint and give us an example of what it would look like to do a pale versus a rail.

0:37:26 – Kyle Richmond
Okay. So I think a very easy one to do is the shoulder joint. I think a lot of people understand if you’re in extra rotation so you’re trying to bring your wrist back behind your shoulder. I usually put people on the ground. They may have a block under their wrist and they’re trying to push that hand down into the block for the pales and then they’re trying to pull that away for the rails. So they’ll feel all the anterior stuff and stuff in the front of the shoulder work on that first contraction and we’re trying to pull that away. They’ll feel the backside of their shoulder pull themselves in extra rotation and they’ll notice how much harder it is. One, they probably can’t move there. Two, they’ll cramp up like no other and then they’ll just get a lot more range of motion. The hip is a little hard to explain if people understand like 90-90, but I think that’s always an easy one for people to understand.

0:38:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, that’s a great one. So for those of you listening, basically like your hands up in a pitcher’s position, like you’ve got the ball getting ready to throw but you’re lying on your belly and then you’re trying to keep your elbow on the ground or might be elevated a little bit, but then you’re trying to lift your hand so it’s going up towards the ceiling. So when you’re doing the pushing into the block, why is that part important too?

0:38:28 – Kyle Richmond
So that’s the tissue that is lengthening. We have to also make sure that can contract in that range of motion. We don’t want useless I hate to say useless, but range of motion. Let’s go back a second. Yeah, the rule specificity says if you do something passive you will get passive results. If you do something active, you’ll get active results.

That’s why if you’re just stretching, you won’t get stronger there. So if I just put you in a oh, you need more shoulder rotation, I just get you to stretch all day, well, you haven’t gotten stronger there. So if you still go and take that baseball as hard as you can, bring it back and throw it, you’re not stronger there. Nobody would believe that sitting in the bottom of a squat would make them stronger at their back. Squat right, you have to train that with strength. It’s the same idea with anything else. That’s why you could see I took the internal strength model with FRC. They’re blending strength training principles with mobility. They’re not just two. You know exclusive things. They all melt together and that’s why it’s so important to know that with rehab is you have to challenge and really give people something to work on and get stronger to see the results they’re looking for If I want to just give them a stretch, go do some yoga, go stretch all day, but you’re going to get a lot different results than what you want.

0:39:32 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s such an important part and I’m so glad you went there, because any most golfers are looking for. I need more rotation. I need more rotation. Give me a rotation stretch. Give me something that’s going to make my back swing bigger. But what you just said is so crucial that you could stretch all day long and you could get yourself to be like Gumby. But if you don’t then build strength with some resistance in those new ranges, you’re almost putting yourself at risk for injury, right? 100%, 100%, yeah. So being able to find those positions and I highly recommend you guys go check out Kyle’s post, because he does a good job of showing many of these where you’re putting yourself in a position and then you’re creating force, you’re putting tension and stress through whatever that joint is, whatever tissue that is because that’s then going to build that strength in that new range of motion that you just gained. So stretching is great, but if you’re just stretching to stretch, like you said, you’re not really going to get the benefit. Ultimately, you want to be stronger in that range of motion.

0:40:33 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, and that’s really important. People think mobility work like it should be challenging. You shouldn’t want to do a ton of it. If you’re doing an hour worth of mobility, you’re probably not doing it with the right intent. I coach a class over here on Thursdays and it’s a mobility-based class and I was like, oh, we’re going to do stretching. I’ve got them doing lift-offs at the point where their hips are cramping and they’re struggling. You know people get very like I’ll give them mobility programs right. Like there’s only three or four things in here to do that day I go.

If you do those the right way, you shouldn’t want to do more. You’re going to get like no one’s going to go to the gym so you need to do 100 sets of back squat, do three or four sets, put a lot of effort and time behind it. You’re going to get stronger. Mobility shouldn’t just be a thing. I got to stretch for 45 minutes. I’m going to go and do my PVC pass throughs, nice and easy. It really should be challenging. It should make you sore, it should make you tired and that’s how you see the change that’s going to last.

0:41:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I would venture to say that a true mobility program like you’re talking about could be the most brutal thing that a person could go through, because they don’t expect it to be hard, right? My clients know, like if I grab just a little bit like a one-pound weight, they’re like, oh shit, something bad’s coming. You know, like this is going to be hard If I don’t grab anything. You know you put them in a postural position and they have to hold it like you’re talking about. Those are the things that can be like super, super frustrating because they’re so hard and they don’t seem like they should be and sometimes they have that neural component where your body’s not really connecting with what’s going on, they steer at it.

0:41:56 – Kyle Richmond
They’re like I had a guy who, if he could squat 500 pounds, he can’t pick his foot up off the ground and hip interrotation to save his life and he’s just steering at it. Yeah, I’m all the way down to his side. He’s like a half inch off the ground. You’re like, wow, okay, so there’s something you can work on it. And again you could find a low hanging fruit and find untrained tissue. We know something that’s untrained progresses very quickly and can get stronger very fast, and then you can just make the whole system better.

0:42:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Talk a little bit about the neural connection of our bodies. Sometimes are protecting ourselves right, so like keeping us from going into positions that we shouldn’t be in, even though we’re trying to. But the brain is sometimes that circuit. Can you explain that a little bit? And how do we almost bypass that circuit? Are there ways that you’ve found to kind of get past that?

0:42:43 – Kyle Richmond
Yeah, so the biggest thing if you’re trying to gain range of motion and your body is guarding it right you people who say I’ve really tight groin or hamstrings typically it’s guarding something Well, instead of saying we’re going to stretch as aggressively as we can, I get them in a position or stretch where it’s maybe a four out of 10 intensity, something they can breathe and relax into, right, you have to have control in terms of your own nervous system. If you’re fighting that thing and like, oh, I’m stretching, but it’s an eight out of 10 and I can’t even bear to be here, well then you’re just reinforcing that negative stabilization strategy from that muscle. So, get them in something they can relax into. And then we start adding in those isometrics, because now we’re teaching the brain to actually use that in terms of its own control and you can start ramping that intensity. But that’s where pales come in as like one of my greatest rehab tools, because I can start putting them in positions that feel more safe to the body. They can get stronger in there and then the brain lets them have that.

A lot of people can relate where they say I stretch my hamstrings every day, I come back and they’re still just as tight. Well, maybe you’re not making the change or you’re making a quick change. We can trick the nervous system temporarily. But then my goal with my patients they should come in every single time and feel like their cold range of motion is better. You can leave my office after a half hour and my hip moves great now. But if every single morning you wake up and your hip can’t move, we’ve missed the mark on that. I want to gain that and keep that, because you should be able to go into the gym and I have to do 60 minutes of mobility or to get into your squat. It should be maybe a few things you just want to work on.

0:44:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s where that consistency comes in so much because somebody could go see you and this is really so the traditional model of just straight up manual therapy. You know, somebody can go get manual therapy and then get sent out the door, not be given any kind of an exercise, not be given anything that they’re going to then strengthen, and they come back and they’re like well, it’s tight again. It’s like well, yeah, no, kitten, it’s tight. We loosened it up because literally, heated up the tissue, moved it around a little bit, I stretched you out and then I sent you on your way and so, yeah, moved well for an hour and but then the next day nothing’s changed.

0:44:42 – Kyle Richmond
Those are my favorite posts. A lot of clinicians do. They go oh, look at their solar reflection. We started and here they are when they left. But then, like I want to see what happens when they came back three days later were they right back to it? Because, yeah, you can get more range of motion temporarily, but we got to be able to keep that and that’s why I tell people you’re going to do this exercise when you leave here a few times a day or whatever every other day, whatever it might be to help progress you. So when you come back in, we’re not doing the same song and dance. If I’m doing the exact same treatment every single time, then I’m not doing my job or you’re not doing your job. Someone’s at fault here.

0:45:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, have you ever seen that video that Dr Spina did and it was kind of showing like that snake oil salesman kind of stuff, where he’s like hey, look, I know exactly which one. Yes, here’s a guy, here’s the high, on a table stretching out a hand, you know, you know lifting the leg up, stretching the hamstring look how tidy he is and then bring him down and I forget what he does.

0:45:33 – Kyle Richmond
He like, he like rubbed his shoulder or something he’s like oh, here you go.

0:45:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And then smacks him on the face, he’s like I could literally do anything here, and the second time I lift your leg it’s going to go further. So if you have a clinician that says, oh look, look, how much better you’re moving after that Sometimes that’s for show, sometimes it’s to get people to buy in, and you know so they can’t. So then it’s like, oh wow, that really does work. But just know that that’s not fixed right.

0:46:01 – Kyle Richmond
Right and that’s why, like as a chiropractor, I use manipulation for a lot of my golfers. I’ll manipulate their T spine and then say, hey, now let’s go move that and strengthen it. Get you, because we just opened up new range of motion temporarily. You’ve got some more stuff to work with here. Let’s go and use that and hopefully try to keep some of that gets stronger there. And you know, that’s why you can do stretching or soft tissue. I have a massage gun, I have copying and taping all these things that do have benefit as long as you’re still doing the active stuff on top of that.

And that’s where I fell in love with FRC. Because I was a kid sitting in chiropractic school trimester two, going like I might drop out. This is just all work justing everything. This doesn’t make any sense to me. So I attached myself to that during COVID and then I was like I have now a little bit of a basis to go over because they don’t teach really any exercise. They don’t teach that stuff. I had the training background. It helped, but most clinicians just go. I know how to get you out of pain temporarily, but how to keep it there I don’t know.

0:46:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, which is a very it’s an extremely valuable skill, right, like that’s what most people are coming for Help me get out of pain. Then it’s taking that next, taking the next step, to then help them get onto that path of keeping it where it is moving forward, getting better, getting stronger Awesome, can you. Can you explain to me cupping? So I don’t really know that much about cupping. What is the mechanism that that you’re looking to get? What’s it? What’s it good for? What does it help people with?

0:47:22 – Kyle Richmond
Okay. So I think a lot of people think it’s breaking up like fashion all the soft tissue stuff. Do I think that’s the case and does literature support that? Probably not, do I think it’s great to help reduce pain temporarily, gain some more range of motion. It feels good. I think that’s the end of the day. If it feels good, it’s going to help them just get some movement in whatever area. Awesome. Is it going to bring down inflammation? No, because we’re probably increasing inflammation.

I don’t use it a lot. There’s very few cases. I try not to promote a lot of that because I’d rather just do a quick massage done. Maybe the voodoo floss like quick stuff. Okay, let’s get moving again. Or if I have you like. That’s why I will not be the person doing dry kneeling or acupuncture. I think there is benefit, but I think it’s going to slow down my process. I have to put these needles in you for 15 minutes Now. You got to wait. I think there’s a time and place. Maybe some people use it more. I’m not usually big on all that stuff, gotcha.

0:48:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, good, Because that’s kind of where my mentality was and I just wanted to understand a little bit more about it. All right, so now that the clinic’s open, rebuilt, is there a background behind the name or just cool name?

0:48:21 – Kyle Richmond
You know it was a cool name, but I’m sitting there and it was like, hey, it’s June and I want to open this thing up as soon as I can. I was like I got to start. I was just on Google every day like looking for words that sounded cool. I’m said to people what do you think about this? I was very adamant it was rebuilt strength and rehab because I wanted not to say chiropractic. I think I already would pigeonhole myself because people are still like oh, you’re a chiropractor. I didn’t know that, because strength is super important. I think a lot of doctors are even telling their patients that you need to get stronger here, you need to be stronger as you age. So it doesn’t just say it’s just for younger people, it’s for everybody. I’m going to rehab showing it.

Yes, it’s not just a strength training gym, but there wasn’t anything super significant, even the colors. It’s like a blue, like this. I was at the high school soccer team. We had camp that day and my coach played for one of the coaches played for University of Rhode Island and he gave us these shirts that had that color. He’s like oh my God, I want that for my clinic. So that’s what we did the next day I was. It was really quick, but I love the name.

0:49:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love the name and the colors are good. I’ll have you know, I was doing my research on you and my 10 year olds like ooh, I like how his letters are, like those lines, like that, so your logo looks good, yeah, so I appreciate that.

0:49:29 – Kyle Richmond
I was on a website looking at things. I’m like, oh, I like this. I need someone to design that for me because I didn’t own what that was, but I was. I mean, I was on that. I was online like three, four hours a day just looking at things trying to figure this out. No, I’m happy at how it all turned out.

0:49:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Very cool. All right, my friend, before we close up, I got some questions that I got to ask you, that we ask everybody that comes on the show. I know you’re not a big golfer so some of these might not totally apply, but I think you could probably hand them Caddy Shack or Happy Gilmore.

0:49:58 – Kyle Richmond
Lots of Happy Gilmore. It’s all in the hips.

0:50:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love that. If you could pick a walk-up song to the first T-Box when you’re playing a little golf, what’s your walk-up song going to be?

0:50:09 – Kyle Richmond
Ooh, all right, I’m a big like low weight guy from all those things, probably a belly. I love that one that just gets me hyped up.

0:50:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Excellent, all right, is there a book that you tend to like to recommend to people, or a book that’s really meant a lot to you over the years and maybe you’ve read a couple times or given out as gifts? It doesn’t have to be anything related to fitness, cairo, whatever, just something that means a lot.

0:50:33 – Kyle Richmond
So at first I would always recommend Atomic Habits For most people. I loved it. One recently, though, that I almost value even more is called the Dip. Caddy really talks about when to keep going, when to not keep going, when are you just driving to something that’s really not worth your time? And I find that very valid with what I’m doing, Because there’s certain paths I’m going down, it’s like hey, don’t continue, Keep doing that. Maybe you’re wasting your time. Quit the thing that won’t get you a lot right now to put effort in the thing that’s going to get you a lot more over time. So I found that super valuable. And again, books like that can go to any sort of field, any sort of lifestyle. A lot of people resonate with that.

0:51:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Excellent If you could pick a celebrity foresum to go play golf with. Who’s going to be in your celebrity foresum Could be past or present people, a debtor life.

0:51:18 – Kyle Richmond
Oh, you know I’m already from soccer. I love Ronaldo, messi. Those are the ones too. I would just love to see how they interact, and I think that’s a different soccer. We don’t see a lot of their personality as much as we do with professional football and basketball. You see these guys all the time. I feel like we don’t know who a lot of these guys are, especially with the language barrier. But if you had to pick four I don’t know, those are my two, though, for right now I think that would just be incredible.

0:51:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that would be interesting to see how those two work together on the golf course too.

0:51:47 – Kyle Richmond
I’d just love to see it because we know how it is on the pitch. It’s just so. They’re friendly, but you know they see it.

0:51:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, All right, if you could pick any place in the world. We’ve got the 18STRONG jet fueled up, ready to roll. You get to play golf at any place in the world. Where are we taking you? I honestly somewhere war, Somewhere war after being this ex-poker like a true Chicago guy.

0:52:11 – Kyle Richmond
And it’s literally all I want right now. It’s all I could think about. I’ve never really played golf anywhere outside of the Midwest, so I would love to even just Arizona or Florida, whatever it is Somewhere warm and be able to see something actually look nice. Dude, you’re out here. The greenery is not really there until maybe two weeks out of the year. It’s really nice, but I know it’s not the answer I was hoping for, but just somewhere warm.

0:52:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s right, somewhere warm. I like it. What’s, given the fact that you have done really well with your social media account? You’ve got a ton of followers. What’s an account that you like to follow, that you’d like to share with our audience? And again, it doesn’t have to be fitness related at all.

0:52:49 – Kyle Richmond
Got to show us this guy named Brock. He’s got like 600-something thousand followers. I can look up the exacting later. He’s the one that really taught me how to use social media and kind of ins and outs. Gives me some things to do, not to do. He’s the one that made me do that 30 day not made me, but told me to do this 30 day challenge and got me being consistent, got me comfortable being front of camera. So I kind of like that. If you’re looking to grow your social media, that was my favorite one Because there’s all these people that can give you all sorts of great fitness advice. Like I want to know how to grow this, and he was the number one.

0:53:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
OK, cool. I know that a lot of the fitness professionals that are listening and watching this will want to know that. So, guys, we’ll make sure that we link up that in the show notes. I want that.

0:53:28 – Kyle Richmond
We’ll get that on there for sure. I’ll tell you.

0:53:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah for sure. And then last thing well, I’m going to ask two versions of this what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given? That’s going to be the first one. And then I’m going to say what’s the best piece of personal fitness advice that you’ve ever been given.

0:53:46 – Kyle Richmond
OK, golf I kind of knew this earlier is let the club do the work. I was the guy who was just trying to go up there and hit as hard as I could, no matter what, realizing like you don’t have to absolutely hit it as hard as you can. The club will do a lot of it for you, especially when you’re driving it Fitness-wise, oh boy. I think the biggest thing is that intensity is the driver of most things. You have to have intent behind what you’re doing, and this goes for anything mobility, strength, flexibility. Have a reason for what you’re doing, and I think that can go to any sport, any type of fitness.

I think that’s really important.

0:54:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. Well, kyle, this was super fun. Great to finally meet you, and thanks for taking the time to come on. We really love what you’re doing. We’re going to keep reposting your stuff, for sure, and just keep going. That means the world. Congrats with the new facility, with Rebuilt, and good luck to you.

0:54:36 – Kyle Richmond
I appreciate it, Jeff. Thank you.

0:54:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG Podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Stay great hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Jeff Flagg (2014 World Long Drive Champ, Founder of Flagg Performance)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 365
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Unlock the secrets to enhancing your golf game with the wisdom of Jeff Flagg, the 2014 World Long Drive Champion, as we traverse the significance of rotational strength and athleticism on the fairway. Our conversation is not just a swing analysis; it’s a full-fledged exploration of how to invigorate your game, regardless of whether you’re in your prime or enjoying the sport’s golden years. We tap into Jeff’s expertise in functional training, using tools like PurMotion, to fortify your strength, mobility, and ultimately, your performance.

This week’s episode is a treasure trove of insights for the discerning golfer who recognizes that power drives are just the beginning. Jeff and I pull back the curtain on the nuanced interplay between sport-specific exercises and our body’s mechanics, challenging the status quo of traditional workouts. We share stories from both the tee and the gym, illustrating the importance of a comprehensive training regimen that acknowledges the unique demands of golf – from honing rotational movements to fostering endurance for those challenging back nine holes.

Finally, we chart Jeff’s inspiring journey from baseball to the links and how a philosophy rooted in functional movement revolutionized his approach to fitness. Our discussion underscores the need for tailored training that respects the intricacies of different sports, advocating a holistic strategy for strength and injury prevention. So, whether you’re aiming to lower your handicap or simply wish to infuse your lifestyle with vigor, this episode is your caddy to a more athletic and assured presence on the green. Join us as we help you shape not just your game, but an energetic and enriching life beyond the course.

(00:03) Building Athleticism in Golf

World Long Drive Champion Jeff Flagg discusses rotation in the gym, social media engagement, and embracing individual perspectives in fitness and nutrition.

(12:16) The Importance of Rotation in Golf

Rotation is crucial in golf, impacting mechanics and endurance. Physical deficiencies can be exposed, requiring more rotational exercises in training.

(14:59) Rotational Strength for Athletes

Rotational strength is crucial in sports like golf, and sport-specific training with dynamic movements can prevent injury and enhance performance.

(25:11) Transition to Exercise Education and Driving

A former baseball player found a new passion in golf after studying philosophy, working with a swing coach, and seeking functional movement training.

(28:36) Building a Rotational Athlete

Nature’s interconnectedness in sports training, emphasizes rotational exercises, fascia’s role, and individualized approaches for injury prevention and performance.

(36:25) Gym Equipment and Protein Supplements

Proper post-workout nutrition, innovative fitness equipment from PurMotion, and the benefits of ground-based tools for functional training.

(49:35) Golf Training for Strength and Confidence

Nature’s versatile fitness program for golfers of all ages and skill levels, using movement variety and alternatives like bands, to eliminate weak links and build confidence.

(56:44) Favorite Golfing Moments and Advice

Debating golf movies, walk-up songs, book recommendations, and dream celebrity foursome with generational talent.

It Takes What It Takes – Trevor Moawad

Getting to Neutral – Trevor Moawad

PurMotion

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode number 365 with Jeff Flagg from Flagg Performance. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe that every golfer deserves to play better, longer. This episode, we have a return guest from episode number 170, Jeff Flagg. Jeff was the 2014 World Long Drive Champ and is the founder of Flagg Performance. Jeff has been working with golfers on their fitness, on their game, for several years now, and we bring him back on the show to talk about building the athleticism in your game. And he’s actually here making the case for golfers rotating more in the gym and not just rotating more, but rotating better in the gym, utilizing some different pieces of equipment. Especially, we talk about the pure motion pieces of equipment that he used a lot in his training program that helps his golfers, whether they be teenage golfers or all the way up into their 80s, move better and hit different areas of the body, different angles, different forces, to make sure that they’re able to handle everything that the golf course could ever throw at them. So you’re going to really enjoy this episode with Jeff.

Right after this, our partners over at Lynx hole have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So you’ll get 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview. What’s up? Yeah, man, thanks for doing this. This is cool, not too much. I was just kind of scrolling through your Instagram and realized, holy shit, he literally just kind of started posting that.

0:02:18 – Jeff Flagg
I’m so bad. I’m so bad at it.

0:02:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’m so bad at it.

0:02:25 – Jeff Flagg
It’s like provided me so many opportunities in the past and it’s like I just got to tell myself that like it matters and like I just post and like get in the rhythm of it. Yeah, so that’s my 2024 goal is to get on it, because it’s just like it’s just just where people find you. It’s just like it’s kind of dumb not to.

0:02:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, can I give you one suggestion on yours, because the black and white that you have of you just doing some exercises just do nothing but that like, keep it simple for yourself and that will look sick and people will.

0:03:10 – Jeff Flagg
It’ll come, just it’s fun, like people just the look of it feels cool and I’m sort of played with, like the you know you talk about, like the art and science, right, like and I sort of tend to lean towards the art side of it and like my dad’s artistic, and it’s like I looked up, like I just kind of like the look of black and white and it’s like you know what makes black and white phones different or whatever, and basically like the science or whatever says you know, it’s like your, your, your eyes drawn more towards the subject and not like crazy colors, and the other part of it is like our gym at Bears Club is the ugliest shade of yellow so it’s like that was the main reason, but.

But it was like, yeah, it, and that’s kind of what I want to try to do is like like focus your eye on like what’s happening with the body and not like peripheral stuff.

0:04:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
But yeah, like I was just kind of scrolling through and looking, I’m like this just looks cool, plus, the movements that you’re doing are cool and eye catching. You know the pure motion stuff that you use. So I’m like, yeah, if he just does this and it’ll keep it really simple myself to just shoot those kind of videos.

0:04:24 – Jeff Flagg
Yeah, and it’s just like trying to take all the friction points out as much as possible because I’m a classic like over thinker, like all right. But you know I’m showing this, but it’s like somebody’s gonna say this and it’s like, and I know there’s nuance and it’s like in social media, it’s just not. It’s not a place for nuance. You just you post it and you’re falling across the room.

0:04:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, we just had Jeff Levecchio on recently and you said you’d listen to that episode and like talking to him, he’s like man, you just gotta you put it out there. You say what you know your audience is gonna need to hear in the way that they need to hear it. And, yeah, people are gonna chirp you. They’re gonna say, oh well, your glutes don’t actually activate that way, you don’t turn muscle, you know whatever.

0:05:07 – Jeff Flagg
But it’s like no, I’m talking to the people that need to hear this, need to understand it and everybody else just it brings up and it’s like everybody’s got you know everybody’s got their you know takes, getting older and stuff like that they realize like everybody’s got their own bias, like everybody does. It’s like you’re not gonna be completely gonna make everybody happy and it’s just like you know everybody’s got different experiences and and you know view points on things and lenses to look at things and it’s like to me that’s that’s unique and that’s like it’s not something to like go, oh, it’s right or wrong. I mean, you know our field is just shades of gray, you know, and it’s like there’s nothing established really much on any end of you know exercise, nutrition, like there’s so many factors. It’s like unique perspective I feel like is is, you know, that’s kind of yeah, that’s one man’s opinion. It’s kind of like how I see things this way and you know, thank you for what it’s worth.

0:06:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it’s like anything any golf pro, any fitness professional you could ask somebody to create a program. You could ask ten different professionals to create a program and they could be the smartest people in the world. They’re all gonna do something different and they could all probably critique a little bit of what the other person, what the other trainer or coach or whatever, did it. That’s just, it’s our natural inclination.

0:06:26 – Jeff Flagg
So, yeah, for sure you’re doing it, you know, and that’s it’s funny, like just going through, you know, I’ve been primarily in person and then, like you know, kind of launching an online product here shortly, and it’s like all those things going through my head and it’s like, and obviously there’s like all the you know scientific justification and you know swing speed and injuries work around it’s like. But it’s also like the other day, it’s like we’re training.

It’s like you know there’s obviously boxes we need to check, but another box that I feel like is important to check is like it’s gonna look cool, I think like I mean look at, look at look at any golf swing, you know pro golf swing, let’s say amateur, the pro golf swing, you know, in slow motion or a cool different angle, it’s like it looks cool, it’s like a cool athletic, coordinated, you know body, it’s just twisted up and it’s like it’s cool. Look at watch and it’s like eye catching and it’s like you know. Why don’t we bring a little bit of that into training, not only to prepare for what you’re trying to do, but also, like you just want to move cool, like you don’t want to walk around like a brick, you don’t want to walk around. Like you have the, you know, as we all get older, the old man shuffle. Like you know.

It’s like you, you just, whatever you do, however, whatever your talent level is with golf, it’s like, at the end of the day, I think you want to move, you know walk in. And like you walk in, you know you carry yourself well, you move smoothly, it’s like you flow. You look at all the greatest athletes. They’re all just like a swag to them and it’s like, bring it a little bit of that into into your training. It’s like, why not work on that a little bit, you know?

0:08:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you know, that’s the athleticism part to me, right, like we talk about. You know you want to be an athlete when you train you want to be an athlete. Golfers are athletes, but like so. For instance, I just had a gentleman in here the other day. He’s a year younger than me, 44 years old. He if he’s listening to this, he’ll know who I’m talking about having some back pain. I worked with him years ago when I was in the physical therapy clinic. But he came back and he, you know, played high level football, played a lot of high level sports, loves golf, and he’s been having so much pain recently that he’s like dude.

I literally feel like an old man and almost to the point where it’s. It’s become depressing because he feels like the pain may never go away and this may. He may be just on the down slide right and I was like dude, you have so much athleticism in your history, in your background. Yeah, you beat your body up so we got to fix some things, but like it’s not over, you’re 44 years old, like we’re going to get this back, we’re.

And I saw like the weight fall off of his shoulders and be like are you kid? Like like, oh, that’s all I needed to hear. And now you know he’s doing some things and we’ve only met one time but like I have very high hopes of where we’re going to go with him and just to make him feel like like he’s a strong, powerful dude again. You know, he’s like a 6’3 big guy and like and he said he was golfing with his dad not too long ago and his dad’s like what’s wrong with you? You look like an old man. He’s like I feel like I’m your age, you know so, so it’s that kind of thing. It’s like, yeah, I want to be able to move and do things. And you know, like, move around and not just stick in a box.

You know, like Levecchio said, like do all my exercises in a phone booth, right like you need to be able to move like a, like a cat, you know. So I’m glad that you said that, because it’s it’s the athleticism and we we hear that word all the time, but to me that’s like really.

0:09:48 – Jeff Flagg
What that means is like no, I’m it’s not downhill, I mean, that’s like I actually had so much, like you know, being at a golf club and you know my day to day is a lot of the older, you know, club golfers and it’s like it’s almost when they first come in. It’s like there’s a little bit of like that wall up that you got to break down. Like you know, the gym is, it’s intimidating call these weights, like all these things you know. And it’s like I, you know my doctor told me this I got this hip replaced, I got this bad knee, I got this shoulder, I got this neck fusion or whatever. And it’s like I’ve sort of I’ve worked with all of that and it’s like, okay, great, and I’m not here to diagnose you, that’s not my lane. It’s like I’m here to find what can we do. You know, as opposed to you told me all the things you can’t do, right, so it’s like what can you do? That’s where we start. And then you just built from there and it’s like, and you guys are in your playing golf three, four times a week.

You know how hard a golf swing is on your body, like, if you can swing the golf club like, you can do a heck of a lot in the gym and it’s just again it’s like we’re here making the gym, you know, a, a, a, you know not a intimidating place, start here and then you just build it out and I think it’s yeah, it’s one thing I always try to do when trying to put myself in people shoes, being there in the past, injuries and you know kind of that feeling of I mean I was 20, you know, playing college baseball, and like I felt fragile, like I was big, strong, but like I felt fragile because I love training. It’s training hard and getting I’m not gonna anything, but it was a lot of the Olympic stuff, a lot of the square stuff, a lot of that it’s like. And then I always had to do a bunch of hip mobility and all that to get my body ready and it’s like had you know the little, you know the little oblique strains, little you know rhomboid strain, things like that, it’s like the little connectors and stuff, and it’s just like it got to the point where I was like I’m on paper I’m strong, but I don’t feel strong and it’s like there was just a disconnect there. So again, over the years of got athletic career taking its course, you know being exposed to different things over the years and you know competing myself, obviously in a different sport long drive and swing a stick for a long time and it’s like just trying to find what’s gonna. It’s never gonna be one-to-one, but like bringing you know all the benefits of training right. We all know to be healthy, resistance training is great, cardiovascular health and all that like that’s all like we get it.

But golf is like my luck and I play it a lot and it’s like no-transcript in the traditional sort of approach is like you gotta do this, then go play your sport. But it’s like can we? You know, like we have to do the basics right. But what if the basics were a little more, kind of speaking to me and what I like to do and the rotation is a huge part of the golf swing and like that’s kind of where I kind of looking at the landscape and like when everybody comes to me, it’s like you know what is.

What does every golfer say? When I get tired, I quit turning. You know I go to the golf pro. I can’t turn. Like I need more. I need more turn, I need more backswing, I need more like with.

You know I’d say everybody says it and it’s like, okay, well, like, let’s work on that, you know. Let’s like let’s you know, if you, if you got it, let’s keep it, train hard and let’s keep it, and if you don’t have it, let’s sort of try to cultivate it and like, little by little, everything you do sort of goes into that bucket of like it’s helping me turn better. And and that’s where I, you know, when you think of next stuff, low back, you know, hip to knee, any of the you know pick your, pick it out of a hat, a lot of it comes back to it. For me, for golfers, it’s like it’s that’s, it’s not turning fully or inefficient, sort of mechanics and sequencing and and comes from, like you know, physical capacity not being able to rotate right, left, you know, or some you know, the golf swing will expose. If you have a, if you have a physical deficiency of any kind, the golf swing is going to expose it.

0:13:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it’s interesting.

You know, when we were communicating back and forth, you said something to the effect of you know, there’s a lot of of professionals out there saying that you know, like, and and I’m I’m one of them I’d said it in the last couple episodes that you know, golfers rotate all the time, and so one of the things we need to do when they’re in here is is not necessarily have them rotate, but you’re like, actually I’m here to like make a case for a little more rotation for these golfers, and what you just said about you know, at the end of their round, them losing their rotation, like that makes a lot of sense to me.

We just had Mitch Sodowski on talking about the fact that golf isn’t explosive sport, but it’s also an endurance sport. No matter what level you’re playing, if you’re riding in the car for four hours, maybe five, or if you’re playing for four days, but yeah, at the at the end of a round, you still have to have the same mobility and capacity of the endurance of that rotation. So you know that that definitely kind of changes my mind a little bit on the idea of, yeah, maybe there we do need to, maybe I do need to start putting a little bit more of that stuff and and a lot of the unilateral stuff that ends up going in has some rotation to it. I’m watching a lot of your videos and seeing how you utilize the cables and things like that a lot. But yeah, so you’re here to plead the case for more rotation.

0:15:00 – Jeff Flagg
Yeah, I mean again, it’s like I’ve only snicked my whole life and it’s like you know, and it’s one of those things like over the years it’s just like aha moments and again being and it’s kind of like I feel like a lot of you know fitness professionals and trainers and things.

It’s like we have, whether we have an athletic past or like have an injuries in the past, and it’s like that’s like sort of you know pushes us in this direction of like I want to help people not have those injuries and things. And and yeah, it’s just like it’s you know. It’s kind of how I see it is like it’s just preparing. It’s it’s you know we talk about building strength and it’s like rotational strength and that’s sort of where I sort of I guess you know my viewpoint sort of centers on, because obviously, with like power and speed you know I used to be a long drive champion like yeah, people kind of you know want to hit it further. It’s like I see the recipe being, you know, trained and get yourself strong and ripped drivers like do the thing Right and and again, we try and yeah, and I, I, I.

I utilize the all kinds of tools but, like you know, medicine balls are kind of in the middle.

But again, what I see, the limiting factor a lot of times is that rotational strength portion and, like you said, a lot of the you know, unilateral stuff. I mean, I just see rotation as it’s not just twisting right, it’s like you know it’s. You know what do we do right at golfers, right, we’re loading to the right, unloading to the left, right, okay, well, like what if we loaded to the left and unloaded to the right? And what if we, you know, right in a golfers, are side bent to the right at impact kind of creating force in a sort of right side bend, you know, impacting through the ball? So what if we create force side bending the left, like it’s just that the golf swing is very specific, so what? And I just I love again I sort of the the my dad’s architect and like I sort of gotten this eye over the years of like just looking at, like the architecture. You look at the body, you look at the lats and look at the obliques and you look at the pecs, look at the groin, like how they, they all like sort of wrap and and the architecture of it all, like okay, like you know, and I don’t know, not a penguin broad brush, but, like you know, bench squat and deadlift are like not hitting those like I use them, you know, and and it’s there’s a disconnect of a feel, right, and so it’s kind of again, I talk about it like it’s rotation just like ties everything together from a physical standpoint and from like I think when we talk about athleticism, like you know, you see, I mean the example that once comes up in my head is, like you know, you look at an unbelievable athlete like I just I remember this from years ago Adrian Peterson, right running back. I remember watching like a celebrity softball game and he was like swinging and missing Like dude, looks like a Greek God when he’s standing there he’s running on the football field but then like that rotational coordination and awareness and just looked like he was just like you know he was that fit out of water and it’s just like. Okay, so like the athleticism demands are different. Obviously he’s a great football player, but, you know, obviously a rotational athlete has different demands, right.

So it’s like that’s kind of again all goes into like my, my sort of view on things of like you know it’s definitely not loading up a cable machine and holding it with a golf grip and you know, pulling down, like working on your downswing, that’s just that. But I just see, you know, with different implements. You know, I know I’ve kind of been told in the past that like the movements that I do with the foot, the feet pivoting, it’s like they kind of chuck that up to like baseball footwork. But to me it’s like you know we get so you know golfers get so planted in the ground right Again the like globally, sort of looking at the golf swing. It’s the feet are planted, the body’s rotating on top of sort of solid legs, right. Obviously there’s more involved, but so basically in the gym sort of flipping that. So those exercises are sort of getting the hips, the groins, lower leg, everything a little more active.

Looks like a baseball swing, but it’s just, it’s kind of again, looking at it from a balanced perspective of like all right, I can rotate my feet planted, I can rotate my feet, movement, I can rotate with my yo and with those moves it’s like the chest is pretty square to the resistance and then it’s like, okay, I’ll do stuff where. It’s like, you know, feet are solid and the upper half is rotating, so it’s like it’s all. It’s kind of just just looking at all the different directions, it’s kind of like you know, or or from from pure motion, it’s like we’ve, we’ve, we sort of you know the whole planet and orbit, sort of analogy. It’s like you, when you look at the planet and you look at how the planets go around, it’s like you know, you got, you got here, you got here, you got here you got all the different angles and they’re all different.

Like all the muscle activation is different. It’s different. You know parts you know harder than others and it’s just like it’s at the other day. It’s like I want to be able to cover all those bases to be just, you know, a complete rotational athlete. You know, that’s kind of kind of what I’m trying to try to build. You know, when I’m working with people yeah, I mean watching your videos.

0:20:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean, there’s some some cool things that I had never even really seen before. You know, like some of the bar movements where you’ve got the bar overhead and you’re either pulling or rotating and you’re in kind of that split stance, and I’ve always liked the idea or mentally just kind of seen the idea of like, yeah, we’re just trying to hit different angles, different vectors, and, and if my body can handle, or my client’s body can handle, forces in all different directions they can, they can find their balance, they can create some sort of force and and direction and movement against resistance. Like then I feel like we’re doing our job, like you said. As far as making them more well rounded, yeah, we’re not working specifically on what their downswing feels like in that motion, not to say that I never goof around with that kind of stuff too and play around with some of those things, right, because that’s also what they want they come in and they want the same.

But, yeah, watching your, your different movements, I’m like that just makes so much sense and and some of the different you know apparatuses that you guys are able to use.

0:21:29 – Jeff Flagg
Well, and it’s like you know, like I said, kind of with the, you know it’s like pro guys or or you know, college players, high level players, it’s like you know they have it right. They have rotates like we’re trying to get more the whole Western way more weight, more range of motion, more, more, more, more, more. So it’s you know it’s it’s cultivating that right and sort of solidifying that and stabilizing that. That’s their range of motion. They own it right. And then you know, for the older clubs, I mean I do like again some of the you know more extreme stuff, I sort of pose the me do under stuff like that. Like that that’s there’s obviously progressions, but I mean I do it with 75 year old ladies and I do it with, you know hope again guys that have neck fusions and it’s it’s it’s it’s a systemic sort of you know strengths that I want to build where it’s it’s. Yeah, maybe you do have, you know your, you know a couple cervical vertebrae fused. All right, you’re not getting anything out of that, right, you’re next to me a little stiff, but we got to get as much as we can out of thoracic. We got to get as much as we can out of our hips, we get as much as we can out of your shoulder blades, like we got to be able to like work with what you have. And it’s not just like it’s, it’s, you know it’s, and that’s where it’s like I talk about it more systemically where it’s not just sitting there doing isolated exercises, kind of like you’ve seen, it’s like it’s, it’s I’m on my feet coordinating everything and it’s it’s. Everybody in the boat is rowing the same direction and apparently you know some people are going to be limited, but it’s, I’m trying to. I’m trying to build it where it’s not just one area that’s getting connected to a lot of injuries happen. Right, it’s like you’re too loose in some areas, not strong enough in other areas, and it’s like the one spot that kink in the hose gets hammered and trying to again open everything up where it’s.

And again, with the older clientele not even if I love the cable so much because you can, you can play with resistance and it’s like you can put them in athletic positions and it’s, you know, kind of work in resistance that they’re not really used to and you know kind of you know they’re so used to golf swing rotating. You know loaded rotating. You know, I take all my lessons, do all that and it’s like just getting them to rotate the opposite direction. It’s almost like the whole, all the benefits of like walking backwards.

Right, there is the brain benefits, of what it’s like just getting them rotating in a different direction or having, you know, loading on one leg instead of the other or sort of just it’s sort of you can see their brains sort of light up where it’s like, and that’s where, again, a lot of tightness and stuff comes from just awareness and like you know, a you lock up because you don’t feel strong and you don’t feel comfortable with your balance or your strength or your you know.

You kind of devolved this way, right, so to be able to sort of not only, obviously, you know, strengthen the tissues and things like that, but it’s given the brain that information of like hey, like you’re safe here, like you can turn here, like you can go there, like it’s, it’s all just feeding, trying to feed good information into the system and let the athlete do what it wants. Everybody swings different ways, everybody’s got different ways to do it. It’s just like let’s just try to bulletproof you so you can be, you know, free to do it, use it, how you use it, you know.

0:24:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When did your kind of philosophy mentality on training shift so for for people that are listening that don’t know your background, professional baseball won the 2014 Long Drive Championship. Then was it after Long Drive that you went back for your education in exercise.

0:25:17 – Jeff Flagg
I finished baseball and then I had a semester of school left so I went back I think it was 20, 2013, went back to school and then that’s when, like you know, didn’t have baseball. You know, I was like my spring, my spring is freed up. You know, it’s nice to have a spring time, so I was going to go to school and start philosophy and just spending more time to golf course just because I was, you know, kind of I’d always kind of grew up, I just kind of self taught growing up playing. And then I met a swing coach there and you know, we we got on technology the first time, I think first time I, you know, measured my swing speed of, like you know, 132 or four or something like that. So it’s like you know I was, I was a power first baseman, like I had. I had I’ve always had a little bit of juice. You know, being six foot six helps too, but but, but, uh, and just started, you know, long Drive there, and then that was 2013, then one in 2014.

But, um, yeah, I met Jorge from Pure Motion in 2010, I believe, when I would play baseball, and and he just he had this warehouse and he, I like it was an off season job, um, I like I worked there and was able to work out there and, like, sort of, was exposed to sort of his way of looking at things. And you know, it’s cool just thinking back. I mean, it’s been a long time now. But like the development of you know, some of the products and stuff that you see, it’s like it’s kind of fun to be in the lab with the crazy guy that he is, um, but that sort of started to shift my focus of like. It’s like, yeah, I mean I honestly remember having like an epiphany of like, yeah, I forget I was in the car and driving. I was like man, I just wish I could find something like because I love training, you know, with the school, just like you know, you know, at the high school, like Getting into weightlifting, getting hurt, and then you know like having the old, like the old, like Hershey Walker, like the calisthenics, like you know pushups and the side like a body weight stuff, yeah, like doing that as a young kid.

And then like getting and getting the college and lifting heavy and like getting big and strong, like I loved it all. Okay then, I loved it Just the fact that you know it’s preparing me For the sport and because you know baseball was life and it’s just like over the years, get beat up, and it was just like sort of having this little reservations and I’m like on paper I’m strong like bench in 315. Like you know I’m not I know what. I backslotted power clean and stuff like that, but like strong, but like just felt like I was you know kind of stiff when I was going to swing and run and Things like that, and it just like it was like the more I did of that, the stiffer I was getting, you know and without having to do a bunch of, like you know, hip mobility stuff. So that just is a seed that was planted in my head and then getting exposed to to Jorge and like.

Oh, like this is different, like this is like it’s the same stuff, like it’s squatting, it’s the basics, right, it’s squatting, it’s benching, it’s, it’s it’s pushing, it’s pulling, it’s rotating and it’s like oh, like this feels different and it was one of those things like it.

Just I Work there as an offseason job like shipping orders, and then, like then started, then started kind of finishing my degree and then started training intern there and then sort of was going around it and so was there, you know, director of education, that going overseas teaching it and and then just again getting winning a long drive, getting in the golf world, sort of looking at through the golf lens and and just getting putting all the pieces together.

It’s been a bit of interesting, like, looking back, it’s always pretty interesting to see how it all falls together, but it’s it just always goes back to like, yeah, it’s funny, the people that I I exposed to it myself, included Jorge, like Jorge’s in a five-time Olympian In in in martial arts.

So it’s like it’s rotational athletes, it’s just like it just it fits for for for that approach and I’ve sort of you know again, kind of doubling down on Stickin ball, sports, golf and baseball, like I’ve sort of you know, tweaked some things and and you know it’s it’s evolved, but it all goes back to just building a rotational athlete. And it’s like I’m use this with NFL players, like you think about you know I can get making the case right now I’m making the case, but like if I was to to talk to an NFL guy, like if you’re running cutting change of directions, like you got to be able to get in that hip, you got to be able to rotate the torso, or it’s like those forces in your, in your, your knee and back, or like our. There are a lot for big and strong guys. So it’s that ability to be soft but also training hard, lifting heavy, you know good. Again, it’s like those sort of traditionally sort of Opposing viewpoints can try to meld those and bring those a little closer together.

0:30:29 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I would imagine with somebody like that, that maybe has trained kind of that you know straightforward way their entire life. Just Implementing some of these rotational pieces just you know different angles and directions, I mean just having them do a little bit of that stuff could Really really increase the effectiveness of them. Out on the turf and running and cutting and and you know, jumping, I mean everything and in and injured and that’s like it’s the. It’s just that, it’s that it’s a piece of the.

0:30:59 – Jeff Flagg
It’s just that. It’s that. It’s a piece that I see is missing. I feel like it’s just again. You see, and this is, you know, rotational athletes included, I mean again working with some college guys. It’s like to see, it’s like what I went, like it’s it’s, you know, it’s kind of a football workout and then let’s throw some med balls or let’s do some like immobility stuff and there’s a golf workout now, you know, but it’s like kind of Looking at all of it and being like all right, do we should? Does a golfer really need to like barbell bench? That’s all it’s got like.

You know, pressing strength is important, but like if you have a cable or band or a suspension trainer or something like that, like to be able to do unilateral work, to be able to like it incorporates some of that. It’s just our bodies are just you look at everything’s just twisting and wrapping around. You like it just again. It’s like I just feel like there’s gaps, you know, and I don’t know if you felt it, or or just when you, when you sort of add some of that stuff in it, it it just ties everything together, right, and that’s a kind of my goal with anybody, right.

But you know athletes that you know make a living doing it, it’s, it’s. You can’t be injured and you know we can’t leave any stone unturned as far as you know your health and your performance and we, there’s a lot of things that you, you know. It’s that the benefits of loading the body and Doing it in a way that you move, and you know flow and move in your sport and it’s kind of just again trying to Check both of those boxes and not one or the other, and it seems like we’re learning so much more about the body and really like the fascia and how that connects everything.

0:32:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you know, when we went through school we saw our anatomy charts and we saw the muscles and they the origin is here, the insertions here, and and we kind of thought, straight planes and okay, this muscle moves this, this muscle moves this. And now it’s like, oh my gosh, everything’s connected and we’re seeing that some of the most effective ways of training for Athleticism and just to have that we like call that elasticity or hyper elasticity is you have to move in these different directions. You have to to build the, the fascia and the connective tissue so it it’s able to move differently and accept all these different stresses for injury prevention, but also for that, that speed and that explosiveness that you’re so yeah, absolutely.

0:33:19 – Jeff Flagg
I mean, it’s just it’s that, that that interconnected and it’s like just kind of tapping into, like, yeah, and it’s kind of what I preach to people too is just that that, yeah, I want people to like push back on, like this is what I think, but I’ll, you got to feel it like, you got it like and that’s like, again, a lot of the feedback I get is like I’m I’m freed up a little bit like and it’s like and then I’m not talking like, you know, 25 year old professional athletes, I’m talking like you know, 70 year old men and women. It’s like they’re, you know, because we had golf and I feel like you can, you can just everything is, you know, I need to be tight with my, with my form. I can’t take the club out, I can’t take it in, I got to take it here and then it’s like I got a, you know, I got to have, I got to have the posture and everything’s almost like shrinking, shrinking us a little bit In the sake of VR, in the name of control, or, you know, it’s just to be able to, because, again, training is important and it’s like for overall health. But if we can make that training, help them dude, because obviously you’re working with golfers like myself and it’s like that’s such a huge part of their life they’re going to spend, they’re going to invest some time with you to get healthy. But it’s like you want I always preach, like you should be able to hit balls when we get done, like I don’t care how many pounds we’re moving over the course of 30 minutes or an hour, it’s like you should be able to walk out and, because golf is the sport you play every day, like I can’t blast you, take three days to get that sort of out and then blast you again.

It’s like that’s not a sustainable practice and the more it again what I’ve seen like the more you train in this free. It’s controlled, but it’s free. We’re not just rolling around the ground and some of those free flowing workouts which, again, if that’s your jam, go ahead, but it’s freedom, but you’re low in the body and then again it’s going to in applicable ways to how you use it. That’s where, with the golf swing, I kind of look at it like get zooming out. What are we doing? Right, we’re leveraging a tool, we are rotating and we are have to sync all that up and we’re interacting with the ground, right. So it’s like all right, let me check those boxes while I’m training and I can lunge, push, pull, rotate and then check all those boxes as well. It’s like, okay, we’re preparing for imposed demands. So that’s kind of. Again, that’s what I have tried to and I’m always sort of tweaking it and trying to poke holes in it. But it’s been fun to sort of apply it across all populations and as people enjoy it and get better.

0:36:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at 1st Phorm, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post-workout protein shake. I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in a gym working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis. And so I know that with the post-workout shake the Formula One, first of all, it’s fast-acting. So right after your workout it’s a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym. But also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks.

So be sure to go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So again, go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18STRONG. For those of you listening, check out Jeff’s page so you can see some of the stuff we’re talking about. For those that are just listening, jeff, we’ve mentioned pure motion and some of their tools a little bit. Just give a little bit of an idea so people can kind of understand what’s different about what you guys have or what Jorge has built.

0:37:45 – Jeff Flagg
It’s also kind of funny about that is when you really distill it down. It’s literally what the Egyptians used the most primitive tools. Obviously they look a little different in a trading setting, but it’s literally like pulleys, levers and free weights. That’s literally it. And honestly, the cable machines is like that’s my favorite piece of equipment in any gym and it’s hilarious because you go in a lifetime where you go in an equinox or something like that and you go in. It’s like the dual cable machine is like sitting in the corner, like nobody’s using it, somebody’s doing chess flies on it.

It’s like to me it’s the most personal piece, just because you can change vectors, you can change angles and it’s like a more of an applicable angle to how we’re moving. In sports it’s like in golf. I mean that golf club is moving diagonally around us and it’s like nothing is like the play of the glass that we learned in school. I’m like you know sagittal play. It’s like we’re interacting with the ground differently. We’re interacting with an outside resistance. So it’s like the cables and the attachments. With the cables that get simple stuff. It’s a longer bar so you can have two hands on it. It’s a longer bar so you can kind of increase the leverage and get that resistance away from you a little bit, which forces the core to work more.

The landmine, called the renegade in pure motion terms, but the landmine system, like in all the attachments that go with that, it’s like it’s so funny because it’s so simple. It’s like the attachment that goes on the user end. Literally it’s just allowing you to have the width or the grip of an Olympic bar, just on that end. It’s just a handle and it’s all it is, and then a longer one so you can load it on your shoulder and do lower body stuff, the different. I know I’ve used the Omega a lot. That’s kind of a little more advanced, but it’s the same sort of thing. It’s just increasing leverage, kind of get your arms out of the way from you a little bit.

Some of the Olympic variations are pretty sweet just because it’s the handle swivel kind of on that landmine setup where it’s just allowing you to keep your wrist neutral, like I mean, working with football guys are like you know, our hands are like linemen and stuff Our hands at risk get crushed in practice. And then it’s like I’m going to go in the gym after practice and do cleans and have to catch it and it’s like, again, the form of cleans is super important and it’s like cleans are valuable but it’s like can we do it in a way that’s like not going to beat you up as much, you don’t have to learn the skill as much, and that’s kind of what you know he’s accomplished there. And then, like suspension trainer, it’s like you know it’s got a pulley so you can do one arm, you can do rotational stuff you can do. You’re free to move a little bit where it’s like it’s just like you know the straps aren’t going to rub your arms raw, like it’s just giving you like more options out of like kind of simple tools. The mopping bar is a great one.

I don’t know I haven’t posted down in a while. I got to. I got to.

0:41:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I remember seeing that I haven’t seen it recently. I got to show you that one. I got to post something.

0:41:22 – Jeff Flagg
Yeah, yeah, which, again, it’s like it’s just your ground based. You’re having to like load your body rotation. I mean it’s really nothing that I’ve ever done that hits the trunk like that. We call it the short bite, but like it’s, you load that up and I don’t care. Like it’s a, it’s a different kind of strength that you need to to do some of those moves and it’s like, and that’s again to be able to like load it up and again like to train those patterns hard.

And it’s like nothing, nothing on the golf course is going to like put you in a vulnerable spot, like it’s. It’s like you know the foot pivoting movements and the wide stances and the big. Like you know rotational arcs and bending and flexing and it’s anything else. That’s like if I can do all that or build myself up to do that, it’s like you know hitting 500 golf balls is not going to, not going to move the needle. It’s like it’s just so. It’s again, it’s just building your building that engine to to withstand what you’re, what you’re trying to do, what you, where you want to go.

0:42:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I love it. The, the one that I’ve been seeing, the it’s like the elbow slings where you’ve got them like in a plank position. So is that just a?

0:42:39 – Jeff Flagg
pulley that’s attached. It’s called the air fit, but yeah, it’s like. So it’s. It’s suspension trainer, but it’s got a pulley right and it’s like it’s. And the slings again are sort of designed to just sit on your arms. So again, pushing exercises and I use it. I got clipped off and used on a cable machine too, but the whole idea and it’s like a seat belt material where it’s not going to rub your arms like like, like another, like sort of strap would on some suspension trainers, so it’s like you’re able to put your shoulder in a stronger position.

One and then two, the core stuff that the sling allows you. I mean that like that’s like I got to. I got to, I got to come out there in person and like bring you through some of that. Cause it’s like that’s another, that’s a strength, that’s a core strength that it’s so untapped, I guess to say cause. It’s like. There’s not many things that I’ve found that that can you know some like hanging leg raises maybe can, but it’s like there’s a. It it’s those lower abs and hip flexors and it’s kind of it’s in a supported position, right. It’s not like I’m isolating that specifically. It’s like I’m. I’m technically, I’m on my feet Right. But and when I talk to you know, and usually across the board, when I put golfers on that initially, it’s like they they can do five and they’re crushed and it’s just like cause. It’s just a different strength and it’s like it’s and how I explain it is like it’s it’s a strength where you can. When you build it up, it’s like you’re you’re supporting your back from the front and you think about, I know some of the bass, I kind of a reverse sit up move where you sort of like a pike is kind of you know for not having video of it it’s, it’s kind of a pike motion. But what I’m sort of what accentuates is that sort of eccentric lengthening of the abs on the way out and that redirects into flexing the hips and the trunk.

And when you think about the golf swing, I’m you know everybody’s talking about speed, you know ground forces, extension and busting up and through it. It’s like I don’t want all that go, I don’t want just my spinal extensors to like be fired, that I need to have that eccentric strength on the front to protect, you know to, to build that armor. I think I I was kind of the theme last time I was on here is, like you know, building that armor to be able to because, again, you want to increase speed, you got to bang drivers like, and you got to like get crazy, you got to like step into it and you got to like recoil and like do all kinds of crazy stuff and getting your body in a position to withstand that. Like we got to layer those, those, those sheets of armor on you, and that’s especially one that that I’ve found, like guys, a little back and hip stuff sort of I’ll say it’s not immediate, but sort of melt away when they have that strength that that that can protect.

0:45:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I, I could see that being super beneficial and and I so, for those of you listening and hopefully watching, we’ll have some videos. But you know, you’re like the one that I watched. You had one of your guys in a plank position and you’re there, their elbows are in like straps right and you had them doing kind of that pike.

But then you also had them do like a rotation like getting their shoulder blades like rotating, and I was like, oh, that that looks so good, cause you’re stabilizing with the shoulders, you’re getting the the shoulder blades moving, you’re rotating that thoracic spine, but again you’re on your feet still, you’re, you’re in a plank position, so you’re having to hold everything still and and taught, and you’re teaching them how to just separate that upper, upper torso. Really get in the serratus, Like I well.

0:46:26 – Jeff Flagg
I call it the riblets, but the riblets.

0:46:29 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I like it.

0:46:30 – Jeff Flagg
And yeah, it’s just it’s. It’s kind of you know you hold that it’s. It’s forcing you to sort of keep the hips up, cause a lot of times it’s that feel of it. It’s kind of you’re in a you know a horizontal plank position. But I still like to think of it as, like you’re, you’re engaged with the grounds, like your, your feet are active, like holding yourself up and contributing to that, like a lot of times people get in those slings and the back sort of sags, and so it’s like it’s. It’s just a you know you get the feel of it and it’s like that it’s. It’s you know then go ahead and do you know 50, 100, 200 reps of it, you know good luck, yeah.

0:47:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’m going to come. I’m going to come.

0:47:10 – Jeff Flagg
It’s miserable and awesome at the same time. Well, I’m going to bring some of my toys.

0:47:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Let’s set it up. We’ll definitely do it. We’ll get to have a little 18STRONG seminar here from with Jeff Flagg. That’d be, that’d be awesome. So you’re down at the Bears Club now in Jupiter, right? When did, when did you shift down to there and tell us a little bit about what’s going on? I mean, you’ve got a new training program coming in. That was 2018.

0:47:32 – Jeff Flagg
I was in Chicago, I think, the last time I talked to you. I don’t know how I have to get one. The last time was long yeah. Episode episode 170. And where we? What is this?

0:47:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro

0:47:51 – Jeff Flagg
So I was. I got the opportunity to come down here and I mean it’s just, it’s it’s not very lucky to be here. It’s pretty fun. Our members are great. I mean just to you know, again, it’s like kind of you got to pin yourself to like you know I’ll be in there working with somebody and Jack walks through like it’s kind of it’s like, you know, get to pick his brain on you know golf courses or yeah, it’s, it’s. It’s it’s pretty wild but they give like membership is great, you know it’s out for it. It’s it’s, you know, not bad this time of year and I don’t want to rub it in, but yeah and and kind of you know it’s taken me longer than it should, but I probably talked about it last time I was on this, but I getting finally getting an online program up and running, launching that in the next short little bit, hopefully. And yeah, it’s just kind of how I guess kind of how I framed it was you know what no-transcript If I was to work, if somebody’s gonna walk off the street right and and and work with me, and kind of all the things that I look at.

Kind of like we talked about. It’s like what, what can, what can I do to sort of, you know, coach that and and Push that like what, what? What would be the ideal scenario? It’s like, hey, they came in and like they’ve done all these things are good. All these movements like Okay, like now we can roll, like so it’s like it’s. It’s again, it’s my mind online program. I’m sure you can relate like I can think of every way people do it wrong. I can think of all the things. I think of all that if somebody’s got a bum shoulder, like all right, you gotta change this, tweak this, like the in-person, the art of it in person, you sort of got it back off of that a little bit. But but yeah, hopefully, hopefully, people like it. It’s again a lot of the movements.

Again, at the end of the day it’s like kind of Kind of a tagline. But you know you’re just moving different, right, like you got to move different. Like you know kind of Setting it up where it’s simple again, everybody’s got cables at their gym, everybody’s got free weights. Like if you don’t have cables, use bands. Like kind of giving those solutions to Get your body.

It get sort of your mind wrapped around training differently and loading the body differently and just did not only get, obviously, build strength for what you’re doing, but given that confidence and you know it, that bleed over into, you know, into your golf game, into your, into regular life, it’s like it’s it’s sort of, you know again, kind of wrapping it all up when you don’t have any gaps, you don’t have any weak links like that’s. That’s that’s my goal for, for this. So, you know, can kind of I kind of positioned it as, like you know, you know, you know it can be standalone, it can be, if you love, you know, power cleaning and and barbell benching, you can add this to what you’re doing and and Round out, round out everything. So you have tried to make it as like, versatile as possible, just because I think it’s just, it’s valuable ways to load the body and and I’ve had success with it and hopefully more people can, can try it and and you know I don’t know if say, enjoy it, but you enjoy it when you’re done, yeah.

0:51:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, well, definitely let us know when it. When is the launch officially to be? Next to heaven day for it?

0:51:11 – Jeff Flagg
I believe I got a double check, but hopefully at the see Masters at the latest, I would say. So that’s, that’s that’s.

0:51:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s. That’s at the latest. Yeah, it’s a good launch time.

0:51:24 – Jeff Flagg
So, uh, yeah, and it’s, and it’s kind of we get it sort of designed in a way like from a sustainability perspective. It’s like it doesn’t have to be all season, right. And it’s another sort of kind of viewpoint on it that I have is like you know, if it’s important, you got to do it consistently and it’s not just like I’m sure you see that a lot. It’s like I want to come in and work out for the next three months when it’s snowing and then when it’s golf time, I’ll see you.

0:51:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’ll see you in October, november, you know, and it’s like that’s not no, no, you, usually it’s, usually it’s golf, golf’s coming in two weeks. Like what can we do in these next two weeks, because I haven’t done anything all winter.

0:51:59 – Jeff Flagg
Yeah, so it’s like it’s it’s designed to, to be like whether it’s the middle of the season.

It’s like you can plug it right in and it’s not gonna you know it’s, you should feel like you could go hit balls when you’re done, but you can also train hard and that’s those are kind of the two big rocks that I it’s not interfering with the skill at all, so, um, trying to Really be kind of as precise as I can with you know, being able to implement at any point, um and for again, as for as many people as possible, like I said, I’ve sort of stress tested it from, you know, 15 years old, 80 years old, pro golfers, club golfers, kind of everything in between. So, um, so yeah, so again, I hope I hope people like it and I hope, uh, hope, it’s received well, hopefully, um, you know we can, we can get people moving different.

0:52:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome. You know it’s, it’s tough and I don’t know that the the general public understands how tough it can be to create a program like that. For Because golf is such a broad spectrum, like you just said, you know high schoolers up to 80, plus your old golfers and and as a coach, and you can even hear it when you’re talking about. It’s like You’re going through all those little things like, oh, but I don’t want to do this because this you know, because it could influence this person or that person. So it’s tough.

So kudos to you for for putting together a family poem trigger because, um, it’s a lot of it’s a lot of work behind the scenes that people don’t, yeah, I mean you, you know better than anybody.

0:53:34 – Jeff Flagg
So, um, so yeah, I mean it’s like, again, it’s, it’s, yeah, and I think one thing that I ran into is like there’s a, there’s a freedom to Kind of you know, using a cable machine. It’s like it’s, it’s the the, the movement is, is free, but you have to sort of impose, sort of the the, the barriers yourself. Right, you got to, you got to load in that front leg and you can’t let it pull you around. You got to control your spine angle. You can’t like, you know, if you’re pulling or pushing you can’t be like wobbling all over the place. So it’s like it’s, it’s sort of it’s there’s, there’s freedom in it, which again, on the other hand, is like you can do a lot wrong, um, but but I think, I’ve tried to Distilled it down, um, and so hopefully presented it in a way that is going to.

You know, it’s easy to. I kind of one of the taglines or I just find myself saying it a lot with people in person is it’s intuitive once you get it. It’s kind of an oxymoron, but it’s like. It’s like yeah, it’s like, yeah, you feed here, you just dance here, you hold it like this, then it’s like then, when they start moving, it’s like, oh, okay, like I, it feels right.

0:54:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You know, it’s not like you have to Stay braced up or it’s like a really strict form, so it’s like there’s always wiggle room in gray area, um, but uh, yeah, it’s intuitive once you get it, awesome before, before I forget to ask you we’re gonna jump into these last questions here but where, where will people be able to go get it, or what’s the best place to kind of keep track of of you and find you and so, um, instagram, probably because you’re you know.

0:55:10 – Jeff Flagg
Now you’re watching me like a hawk, so now I gotta.

I gotta, I gotta post consistently now at your, at your advice so, yeah, instagram, and then it’s gonna be Flagg performancecom, real, original, but yeah, and then you get just kind of launch and get it out there and then you know, hopefully it grows and and you know iterations of it and you know, kind of have in my mind I want it to be as as high touch as possible. Um so, um, you know, I got it set up in a way where, like people can give their feedback and like they can, yeah, it’s almost like you know, I’m ideally I’m coaching them, um, remotely. So because it’s again there’s I I love the, the coaching part of it and seeing it, that ability to open up for people, like that’s that’s sort of why I’m doing this. So, to make sure that, like you know, it’s even to the, to the yeah, I even got something built in there. We’re like, yeah, you kind of Let me know what Stuff you’re working on your sling, if you want to put swing video in there too.

It’s like a sort of like I kind of had those options because it’s just like I just want to make the gym is like Seamless as possible, like your goal is it’s to be a better golfer and and again, at, like the gym should, you know, be pushing you in that direction. So, um, so, yeah, yeah, that’s where, that’s where. That’s that’s my story. I’m sick of doing.

0:56:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Very cool. All right, my friend, we’re gonna close up. I know we asked you these on episode one seven.

0:56:46 – Jeff Flagg
Yeah, some. Of them.

0:56:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Some of them are a little bit changing difference. Yeah so, uh, so let’s have some fun with it. First of all, caddy shacker happy, go more.

0:56:54 – Jeff Flagg
I mean I got a stick of caddy shack. I think that’s my. That’s just so good, so good. Yeah one of the best ever.

0:57:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What would your? What’s your walk-up song to the first I got?

0:57:06 – Jeff Flagg
a question on this. So are you talking like a competitive rounds, or like a like a, like a round buddies, like you’re like a sort of hanging out?

0:57:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I don’t want to both now, now that you maybe specify Well.

0:57:18 – Jeff Flagg
I got, I think, the one like, if it’s it’s competitive, I mean I don’t want to be that guy that hard though that like has a bunch of like yeah, because I’m like I’m like a you know gym, like rap guy, like you know, sort of like it’s you want to have a little bit of you know something with swag to like put you, you know, to get you, you get them right mindset. But it’s also, I think, what I said last time, my last year baseball call me baby, call me babies, like it’s like yeah, oh, like this big guy’s coming to play and like Call me baby, just a banger anyway. So I got the timeless banger. So I think I might have just stick with that.

I looked it up and I’m like dude, I’m wondering if you’re gonna change it. This is all the opponent, all right. Oh, it’s like.

0:58:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I like it.

0:58:04 – Jeff Flagg
Six, six monster coming in, call me baby.

0:58:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, the crowd loves it. The crowd loves it. All right, and if, if you’re just, if you’re just hanging with your boys, oh, man um.

0:58:17 – Jeff Flagg
You know, like Country’s pretty chill, like you know, you know, let’s say, rap’s not really appropriate for golf course. Um, you know, get, uh, you know I like Eric church, um, yeah, probably something along those lines. Like country kind of chill, like nothing too too too crazy, because we’re not, we’re not Trying to be crazy, we’re just just having fun. But yeah, um, perfect, yeah, that’s what I’m going with.

0:58:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You’ll have to come on our Nashville trip next year. You have to get right in. All right, is there a book that you like to recommend to people, something that has meant a lot to you Golf wise, fitness, wise, life wise that you have, uh, have like to recommend, or even given it is a gift, to somebody else?

0:59:01 – Jeff Flagg
One that I liked, um, that I’ve sort of recommended to some people like young players and stuff. It’s funny because the the title almost sort of doesn’t ruin it but it sort of gives it. It sort of um, framed it for what it is is, uh, it takes what it takes. I don’t know if you, if you’ve come across that, um, the guy, I think the guy in the last couple years actually Passed away Trevor boad, it was his name Um, it’s like a performance coach For, like any Russell Wilson like wrote the the forward or whatever.

But it’s like and I know nix saven has a blurb in it, I think, or has referenced it, and and and it’s you know, it’s basically like kind of talking to guys you know, young pros and stuff. It’s like you know. It’s like I think there’s a quote of saven, you know, I guess kind of talking along the lines of you know, you, you think you have options, Like if you want to be good or great at something, like you think you have all these options, all these things to do. It’s like the you.

It takes what it takes, like it’s kind of this, the simplicity of it, it’s pretty uh, it’s pretty incredible, but it’s you look at the greats and you look at what all they did and it’s like anybody in any realm. It’s like it’s it’s sort of laid out for you and it’s like you can’t, especially golf, I mean. It’s like you know, setting expectations. It’s such a big part of it. It’s like you want to be here. There’s people that have been there before. You can see what they’ve done and you’re not willing to do that, like, okay, but that’s what it takes, like it takes what it takes. Again, they can be applied any, any role life. I mean it’s talking about um, there’s another book that I from him that I haven’t read, but it the concept is in this book too. It’s like give, like stinking neutral, you know not.

1:00:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, getting in neutral, yeah.

1:00:51 – Jeff Flagg
Not, you know, bad or good, high or low, it’s just, it’s neutral. Being able to assess sort of where you’re at and what you’re doing, where to go, like that’s going to give you the best chance. So, um, yeah, that’s like I find that I’ve I’ve referenced that to people a few times. I got it on the bookshelf somewhere, but uh, yeah, yeah, that’s a good one.

1:01:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool, all right. Who’s your dream celebrity? For some these days, you could pick four guys.

1:01:21 – Jeff Flagg
We’ll give you four, three or four, whatever you want. Let’s see, I was thinking about this and like, obviously it’s like ideal for some. I got a. I got a almost three year old now, so it’s like he’s definitely going to be in it with me. But if you’re talking celebrity and like historical, like why don’t we get what? Do we think? We got Tiger Jack and what’s another? I guess one more all time great. We talking Hogan, because we’re arguing. Everybody argues about all the different generations. Right, it’s like put them all together, put them in a group.

1:02:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Put them in the prime.

1:02:01 – Jeff Flagg
You know, I mean, jack, it’s a long, and like do it out and I’ll just watch. I’ll just keep the clubs in the cart, like I don’t even need to play and just to watch, just get all the arguments. It’s like the LeBron MJ, like let’s just have a play and see, see the best of the best and kind of see who comes out on top. It’s like that would be if I had to get a magic lantern. That would be my group.

1:02:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I like that one. What are they Hogan, snead? All right If we probably I throw Hogan in the mix, yeah, throw maybe Snead in there. I think those are probably the. I’d say Hogan, tiger, jack, if I had to pick three, three dudes there, yeah For sure, all right If we had the 18STRONG jet fueled up ready to go. I’m like, jeff, we’re going wherever you want to go. What’s the bucket list course that we’re going to today?

1:03:06 – Jeff Flagg
I’m, I guess, pulled towards like terrain or like parts of the world that I’ve like, I’ve never been like or like you know, I’m never been abandoned. I’ve heard band is amazing. I just saw recently that new course. There’s a new course, see, lucia. Like on the ocean, like that one’s pretty sick, looks sick. Yeah, I mean, there’s just so much like, I guess, to me I’m like a big like, I guess nature guys, not nature guy, but like you know it, if it’s, if it’s a golf course sort of tucked in the terrain of mountains or ocean, or like that’s just like that, that’s like, that’s it for me, like any, any and all of those, everybody stops you want to make, I’m good. As long as it’s on your tab, we’re good.

1:03:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I dig it, I like it. What’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given?

1:04:07 – Jeff Flagg
Probably have to say play golf, not golf swing. You know we can. We tend to get super technical in our, in our, in our profession and you know when, when you think about you know, I was sort of self-taught grown up so like being able to just think it back and like what was I doing? I was just like hitting wiffleballs in my front yard, just like trying to hit it over that tree and trying to hit it around the house, like you know, and it’s like I wasn’t been care where I was the top, like I didn’t care what my takeaway looked like, and it’s like that could just that could just like overpower us sometimes and when we work on it and we want to get better, but it’s just like go out there again, you’re in a, you’re in a beautiful, keep the property, like don’t just like go play golf, go hit shots.

1:04:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I would imagine like me when I was a kid you know you, especially being a baseball player like just going on pretending like you were a different guy at the plate, you know, and like you could, you could mimic different swings and and it’s like why do we not do that with golf, where it’s just like have some fun with it, you know? I mean, yeah, there’s technical things that are you know better ways to swing, but like being able to go and just and just act like you’re Andre Dawson at the plate, you know, and you got his high, you know. King of Virginia.

1:05:28 – Jeff Flagg
Like King of Virginia, like I remember that, and it’s just like, yeah, what are we doing? I have to get like I mean, I love, like the old, like, and I never really was kind of into golf, like you know or watch Seviply, but like to watch, like the, the short game, like the, the, the, the. There’s like hitting flop shots with a four iron and, like you know, curve it like bubble Watson. Now he hits ball and it’s just like, yeah, you can be the robot or attempt to be the robot. It’s like, and that may work for a select few, but it’s like have fun, try to hit it over that tree, like, try to. You know, it’s just hit shots and I feel like the enjoyment of the game, like it’s a game at the end of the day. So, so, yeah, just go go play.

1:06:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, last one what’s a social media account that you’ve kind of been into lately that you think the 18STRONG crew should go to check out?

1:06:28 – Jeff Flagg
And I actually looked at this earlier and I think you had him on early, early on. I followed him for a little bit.

now that Austin Einhorn oh yeah your notes, I think, is how you’d say. He’s like, hey, it’s like his, his posts and his blog and things like that. It’s like it sort of makes you think it sort of has a little bit of an outside view of things, like you know, and it’s like kind of doesn’t look traditional. But, like you know, it’s like you get results and it’s it’s again sort of a different lens, like you were talking about earlier, like looking at things and that’s a good one. What else? Oh, I mean it’s like I got another guy. I met him at a photo shoot. He’s great. Christian Hafer is his name. He’s a. I get the 18STRONG crew we’re all golf nuts, right. So like he’s like a. He’s a photographer that works a lot of tour events and goes around all these places and it’s like that he’s part of the the golfers journal.

So he does a lot of the photography for that, and it’s like man, like some of the like swing videos he gets, and it’s like I get the art of golf and that like he’s really showcasing like the, the, the properties and the, the, the, the holes, and just looking at it from different angles, and it’s like the, the art of it, and it’s like, yeah, I feel like, if I’m not like an architecture nerd by any means, but I’m, I’m learning, but like it’s just, I’m just cool, like a cool account to follow, like he’s the man, so great dude too. So that’d be my two.

1:08:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s one of those things that I wish I had, just that, that artistic view, the ability to use a camera, like some of those guys do video and and just still pictures. It’s just they make things look so great and cool. Dude, you know, I’m trying to.

1:08:18 – Jeff Flagg
I’m wracking my brain, putting my pictures in the black and white, like that’s all I got. That’s the extent of my photography knowledge, so, so, yeah, I would say I’d learn a few tips from him, but I got no chance, so I’ll leave it. I’ll leave it to the professionals. Yeah, same here.

1:08:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, my man. Well, it was great catching up with you. It’s great to have you on. I can’t wait to see the program that you put out I know it’s going to be great and to see all your Instagram posts that are that are coming up all those black and whites. But congrats on everything you’re doing. Sounds like things are going really well down there, and just just keep it up, thank you, man, thank you for helping me.

1:08:54 – Jeff Flagg
This is, this is always fun. Look forward to doing it again and again. Like all, congrats on all your, your success too. I mean 365. That’s, that’s a lot. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of episodes. That’s a lot of episodes, it’s a lot, it’s a lot.

1:09:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And we’re just getting started, baby, just getting started. Thanks, thanks, jeff. Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG Podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. Thanks again, we’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Transcribed by https://podium.page

Guest: Mitch Sadowsky (Top 50 Golf Fitness Pro, Aretas Performance)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 364
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join us as we reconnect with Mitch Sadowsky from Aretas Performance, who shares his invaluable insights on strength training and performance for golfers. We reminisce about his initial visit to the show and how his expertise has evolved, notably his transition from Florida to Wisconsin and the innovative work he’s doing in the realm of golf fitness. Listen in as Mitch breaks down the importance of kettlebell training for golfers, emphasizing how this tool is not just about strength but also about enhancing power, explosiveness, and the often-overlooked endurance aspect required for the long haul of a golf tournament.

Our conversation also covers the seamless transition from physical therapy to performance training, a path increasingly traveled by patients eager to return to their peak athletic form. Mitch and I explore the benefits of collaborative efforts between therapists and trainers and how they work together to create targeted exercise regimens. For those athletes we can’t work with in person, we discuss the creative ways we keep in touch, ensuring their training remains on track. Furthermore, Mitch shares his insights on kettlebell exercises that are particularly effective in building the explosive work capacity needed for golf, while also ensuring safety and quality in training.

To wrap up our chat, we delve into some of the lesser-known but equally critical aspects of golf training. We talk about the surprising benefits of rucking and nasal breathing, as inspired by the book “Breath,” and how these techniques can bolster back strength, core stability, and even mental clarity on the course. Whether you’re a pro, a collegiate competitor, or a weekend warrior, Mitch’s perspectives on training for golf will undoubtedly offer fresh ideas to enhance your game and overall health. Plus, we lighten the mood with personal anecdotes and favorites that add a touch of relatability to the discussion.

(00:04) Strength Training and Performance for Golfers

Mitch Sadowsky from Aretas Performance discusses kettlebell training, rucking, and proper breathing techniques for improving golf performance and overall health.

(10:40) Golf Training and Physical Therapy

Transition from physical therapy to performance training, collaboration between therapists and trainers, remote training for athletes, and innovative techniques for golfers.

(14:24) Explosive Work Capacity Training With Kettlebells

Integrating anti-glycolytic training into golfers’ regimens for explosive work capacity and endurance, with specific protocols and stop signs for optimal performance.

(23:45) Using Kettlebells

Kettlebell training for golfers of all levels, focusing on shoulder stability, midsection control, and combining strength and mobility.

(38:37) Improve Golf Mobility and Explosiveness

Maintaining explosiveness in training for golfers over 40, building ‘brakes’ for speed control, and addressing overlooked foot mobility.

(50:04) Benefits of Rucking and Nasal Breathing

Rucking benefits golfers by improving strength, stability, and work capacity, while promoting nasal breathing and serving as a de-stressing cardio option.

Breath Book

The Power of Being Yourself Book

Burn the Boats

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode number 364 with Mitch Sadowsky from Aretas Performance. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we are here to help you build a stronger game, because we know that every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode, I’ve got one of my good friends, mitch Sadowsky from Aretas Performance, coming on the show. He joined us many moons ago back in episode number 16 of the 18STRONG Podcast and we brought him back on because Mitch is one of the top strength coaches in the world of golf. He was down in Florida for a long period of time working with a lot of professional golfers and has now moved back to Wisconsin where he’s still working with golfers but a lot of other athletes as well as bridging the gap between physical therapy and general population, that gap where people are finishing up with either their injuries or the rehab and finding a way to get back into their sports, their athletics, or just into their life. In this episode we talk about a lot of kettlebell strengthening. Mitch is one of the top coaches that I know and he’s an expert in not just strength training and coaching but in utilizing different tools like kettlebells to help strengthen in a little different way than most think of when they think traditional strength training. We talk a lot about different ways to build strength and power and explosiveness. We even talk about the idea that golf is, yes, it’s, an explosive sport, but it’s also an endurance sport because it takes such a long period of time to play, sometimes over the course of days. Mitch has been kicking around some different ways of training for explosive capacity that we go into a lot of detail on. We talk about rucking, we talk about breathing, we talk about a lot of different ways that you can train whether you’re a professional golfer, a collegiate golfer or just a weekend warrior like most of us and how that’s going to help you improve not just your game but your overall health. So you’re really going to enjoy this episode with Mitch.

Right after this, our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach, there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com, slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel, for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview, mitch Sodowski. Welcome back to the 18strong podcast. Thanks, man.

0:02:57 – Mitch Sadowsky
It’s great to be back on. We were trying to figure out which episode it was. It was 16. Yeah, number 16.

0:03:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I think that was back in 2015 is when that originally was, and we had started the podcast right at the end of 14. And then you and I got to hang out at the World Golf Fitness Summit in October of that year out in California in Carlsbad. And then it was love ever since.

0:03:24 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, we were roommates, your statement that it was us, and I think, and Clint Howard and Nick Mueller, and Nick Mueller, yeah, and Lizzie Pals was there and we had the whole crew man.

0:03:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That was pretty awesome. That was awesome.

0:03:41 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Long time ago Back when I was a fish talk. That’s right, that’s right.

0:03:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Best fish tacos over in Carlsbad. That’s back when both you and I had dark, luscious beards. Now they’re big and white and gray.

0:03:56 – Mitch Sadowsky
Well, it’s luscious, just a lot whiter.

0:03:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s true, very, very true. So, howard things man. So you are, you’re up in more of a cold climate. You were down in Florida when I originally first met you, working down at Lake Nona, and now tell everybody where you are and what prompted the move.

0:04:13 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, so you’re a little bit of a circuitous route. We moved from Orlando to South Florida and 2000, late 2017. Little bit for my wife’s job, but there’s some good opportunities down in South Florida for me. Got a chance to work with a lot of really really close friends. Bars Was at Coastal Performance, now for Fred with Brendan Hayden and was working a lot with Dr James Spencer, don Stanley, hugo Batero just really really solid crew of guys down there that we all worked really well together from the men’s side and performance side and what was able to refer out quite a bit.

And then we started talking about a year ago, so our daughter’s three, our son’s a year and a half, and we started talking a couple of years ago about getting our family back up to Wisconsin where I grew up, where my parents are, my sisters. It just worked out. So, actually through Jason Glass, I met a couple of guys who went through his mentorship and we met. I met Nate and Scott, probably around 2016,. 17 down in Orlando and Nate’s the first guy that I see coming in to the hotel and he’s got a Milwaukee shirt on and Wisconsin people like magnets to each other. So then, hey, where’d you get that shirt. I grew up there. So he and I started talking. We both have the same volleyball background, the same volleyball community in Milwaukee where we grew up, and he was a DPT, owned his own clinic. And from your performance side, I said, dude, I don’t need a good reason to come up home, so let’s see what we can work on. And we, you know I was able to come up visit a couple of times do some performance clinics at their facility.

And then, about two years ago, we started talking and said, hey, what are you doing for your performance program as your patients are moving out of PT? He said we don’t have anyone. I said, what would it look like if that was me? And he said, well, let’s talk. And last November we were up visiting family and it just got accelerated. I looked at my wife and said, hey, it’s time to get the kids back home.

So I saw Nate. Actually, that night we were at a box game with some other friends and I met Nate at half time. I said, all right, dude, let’s do this, let’s build something really, really big and it fits our visions and our dreams. And we started moving towards it in January, I think or sorry, not January, I think July 12th, 14th, something like that, the movers came, packed our stuff up, we packed everything up with cars and drove on up, and so a little shorter background. So Nate made opened up his own. He was with Team Rehabilitation and he and another guy split off from that company to form Eratos physical therapy. We have two locations and so we opened Eratos Performance in July and we’ve been going since.

0:07:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. So is Eratos Performance. Obviously you worked a ton with golfers. I assume a lot of volleyball players too Is this. Are you working with those two specifically or a little bit of all the athletes around?

0:07:42 – Mitch Sadowsky
A little bit of everybody right now. It’s, you know it’s sliding people over from PT, whether they’re just Gen Pop to firefighters, tactical populations We’ve got I do have a lot of golfers. It’s got. We got a lot of high school baseball players, a lot of high school athletes that are coming off PT. So right now we’ve got a little bit of everybody and you know we’ll be probably doing a little bit more. Specialization in golf is the performance side continues to grow and I would say probably 60, 60 to 70% of my time is continuing to develop our golf performance platform. But right now we’re, you know we’re we’re making sure everybody gets taken care of.

0:08:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love it. I always thought that there was a missing piece in the model of the medical system of you know, going from a physical therapy setting to then just going back out to real life, right?

Or to real sport and not having that crossover, and it seems like it obviously it’s more prominent now than it was, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago when you guys you and I kind of got into this, this field. But I still feel like there’s a lot of that missing or it’s not something that’s been perfected. And I also see that you guys are working so closely together. Are there physicians that that you guys work with pretty closely too, that are kind of steady referrals to you guys?

0:09:06 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, we’ve got we’ve got a number of orthopedic surgeons that we work with. We’ve got I would say mostly down there a couple other docs from outside that realm that we’re working with, that kind of believe in the not everybody needs therapy but everybody needs strength, that type of philosophy that they can say, well, okay, so if you know your knee is bothering you or whatever, you know you can go to Eratos. But we really want them to understand that. You know we follow the reset, reinforce, reload model through FMS, so that you know, once people start loading and creating a little bit more competency and whatever movement pattern we’re trying to fix, that they can slide fairly seamlessly over to the performance side, which is, you know, we try to make it as frictionless as possible.

We want people to understand that. You know, whatever, whatever misconceptions they have about strength coaches and strength and performance, that it’s really not what they think. It actually does look like like really good PT and good strength training look like really good PT as well. You know we want to bring down as many barriers to entry as possible to get people, you know, living as well as possible. And you know, for our golfers, playing golf is in as high a level as possible for as long as possible.

0:10:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
With the general population. Clients, what percentage would you say tend to go from physical therapy over to you guys, at least for maybe, and what does it look like? Is it a few sessions? Is it then, you know, sometimes long-term programming and how many people actually take advantage of that?

0:10:57 – Mitch Sadowsky
It’s growing right now. You know, the more I’ve been here, the more people that we’ve met and start to kind of see what we do with our client, with the performance side of things, and so we try to get them over. Or you know, our therapist has done a really good job. They all buy into what we’re doing. They will say, okay, so instead of working with the tech, you know why don’t you work with Mitch for about 15 minutes? You know, here’s what we’ve been working on with them. Mitch is going to show you a few strengthening exercises you can do to help, you know, to help with whatever we’re working on. And then that’s how we sort of force that relationship and try to create that entry point down there.

0:11:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Very cool. And then, as far as your I know because you had a whole stable of professional golfers, high-level golfers that you worked with down in Florida are you still keeping in contact and working remotely with them? And then, what does it look like in person at the facility in Wisconsin?

0:11:56 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah. So I still have a number of my professional athletes that I work with. They’re on remote programming and then we’ll face time anywhere from one to two times a week and we do almost daily check-ins just to see how everything’s going. You know we’ve got a number of athletes. They’re professional athletes in Milwaukee and if they’ve come to see us for PT we’re reaching out to them to just say, hey, you know, whatever you need from us we’re happy to provide. So one of our collegiate athletes got drafted by the Dodgers this year. He’s still undergoing TJ rehab and you know he’s got some strength stuff that he does outside. But you know, we’ll consult. Just kind of, take a look at this program, say, okay, here’s what we would add in, here’s what we would. You know, kind of use the red light, green light, yellow light philosophy of stay away from, proceed with caution, or scream means go. So we’ll help them out with that. Just kind of be whatever they need whenever they need it.

0:13:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The last time you and I had a chance to talk, which was really just a couple of weeks ago, you were kind of kicking around some different training styles that you were working with with some of your golfers. Had a lot to do with utilizing kettlebells and working on some power, also endurance kind of things, just with a little bit of twist compared to, I think, you know, what we think of traditionally when we think of golf and training and strength. Can you kind of dive into that and how has that progressed a little bit? What other insights have you come up with?

0:13:30 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah. So you know, when we talked last, one of the things that I’ve been kind of chewing on for a couple of years and talking to people who are much smarter than me is, you know, we talked about golf being an explosive sport, and it is, but it’s also an endurance sport. Even if you’re riding a car, you’re still performing activity. For you know, four, four and a half hours, I got for a bit five hours, but you know it takes a while. You know, when you sway a golf club, you know let’s say you shoot 75, and so let’s say you putt yep, 30 putts, not a great putting round, so you still swung a club 45 times. That sounds to me a little bit more like like an endurance type of an activity as opposed to like a one-off activity. So we started looking at some ideas of creating explosive work capacity. So we took some of the ANA, the anaerobic atlactic protocols that Pommelsozoline and Strannikverse have been putting out and they’ve got a number of different resources. So we I started taking some of those principles and talked to some other people who actually work with endurance athletes and how to use kennel belles as their tool and put together a couple of programs working on those anti-glycolytic training protocols and using that with our golfers to create that explosive and that repeat explosive endurance. And yeah, we really like the results.

You know, I think there’s some nice what the heck effects that come along with that style of training. But in terms of the explosive work capacity, you know, we just did a couple of little RPG things right, a perceived exertion, and see how they fell towards the end of round versus the beginning of the rounds. And you know I wouldn’t say there’s a huge like oh my God, this was incredible. I felt so much better. But there was a noticeable difference as the rounds went on, not necessarily just on Thursday, but how we felt on Saturday, how we felt on Sunday, and I just thought it was different and it was just a different way of looking at and how do we solve this problem?

0:15:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, so can you give us an example of what a training session might look like? How long does it last? What does it entail?

0:16:04 – Mitch Sadowsky
There are a number of different protocols that we use. One of them is a push-up and Kennelbell Swing protocol, and that is it’s called 033B. And the way it works you hit a stopwatch and you hit start. As we hit start, it’s at zero. So you do five Kennelbell Swings as explosively as possible and then you get to rest until the next 30 seconds. When the stopwatch hits 30, you repeat, you repeat, you do five swings. When the stopwatch hits a minute, you do the same. When the stopwatch hits 130, you do the same. Once your Kennelbell Swings are done, you rest, just complete rest, until the stopwatch hits three minutes. At three minutes, you repeat the same thing, but you do that with push-ups. So you do five push-ups as explosively, as quickly as possible, making sure you still go through a full range of motion. You’re not shortening them up to get speed, but you do them explosively and you do the same thing three, three minutes. You do five, three, 30, you do five, four minutes. You do five, four, 30, you do five and then you rest. So that would be one cycle through. We’ll do anywhere from two to three cycles in a session, four at the absolute most. We will never go beyond four because you’re really gonna start running out of juice on your swings or push-ups. It’s a lot of explosive volume and so we’ll just go on to do some other things. We’ll hit some lateral lunges, we’ll do Turkish get-ups, we’ll do different row variations, we’ll still kind of do some suppressing variations. So we’ll hit the rest of our workout, but that’s our explosive phase and we’ll do that two to three times per week. It’s not an everyday type thing at all. So that would be one protocol. The second protocol and this is the one that we were working and we’ve done that with him. He loves, my guys love doing that and girls do it. The main one that we did to look at longer endurance was every 90 seconds, and every 90 seconds you would alternate 10 kettlebell swings and 10 push-ups. So again, we usually would do a timer. But because that’s 90 seconds, you can do an interval timer, you can do a stopwatch, but so you do 10 kettlebell swings, rest till 90 seconds, do 10 explosive push-ups same things, explosive as you can, full range of motion, and then you just repeat. So our goal is to get to about an hour. The primary goal is to get to 30 minutes and still stay explosive.

Our we have a number of different stop signs that we’ll use. So one is getting any type of a hot spot on your hand or you feel like your grip’s starting to go. That would be one stop sign. Second is just loss in power. If you can’t get to 10, you can’t get to 10 explosive swings or you just notice that you just don’t have the same pop, that’s your stop sign. Because we’re out of explosive energy. We’re done, we’re just training something else at that point.

Same thing goes for the push-ups. If you can’t get there, If you can’t do 10 push-ups, that’s fine. Just do fewer, however many explosive push-ups that you can do. You stick with that number and you resist the temptation to go more. So that would be our another stop sign. And the other is you can’t pass the talk test between bounce. So if I do my 10 kennel bell swings and then 90 seconds is up and I’m ready to go, if I’m still kind of huffing and puffing and can’t complete a sentence and talk conversationally, you can do it also with complex math like three digit addition. You’re done because you’re not recovering within that bell. So we’re just done, we move on. We go do some other straight stuff.

0:20:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And if you’re doing that for 30 minutes to an hour, that’s gonna be especially if you get up to an hour that’s gonna be your whole session for that day, most likely.

0:20:22 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, yeah, we’ll do some movement prep, some calisthenics, anything to help, just with a general warm-up. We’ll do some sense of swings to warm-up, we’ll do some sets of push-ups to warm-up and then, once we feel like we’re good to go, we go. Obviously, we don’t start in an hour. I think our first couple of sessions we started, I think we got to like 24, 25 minutes. It’s like I could go, but I feel like I’m starting to slow down a little bit, like all right, cool, great feedback, let’s move on. We got another one of these in a week, so we’ll always leave a little bit in the tank and we just move on. And then I think by the time after a couple of weeks, we got up to, I think, 40 minutes.

0:21:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And is that so? If you’re doing that once or twice, twice a week maybe? And then how? How many other training sessions and this is with one of your pro, when your pro golfers right?

0:21:28 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, usually with with my professional golfers. Well, I’ve got a couple of people that do five days, but you know those days vary greatly. You know, for most PGA guys and girl and LPGA girls it will probably do three days to four days. I give them a day or two often between.

0:21:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
We’ll still have some active recovery stuff to do so, but usually three, four is the the norm and if this was somebody that’s a little bit more you know, you’re your weekend warrior golfer, somebody that’s you know More trying to win their club championship or just just play better this coming year, but they want to make sure that they’re they’re, you know, doing a little bit more than the average Joe. How, how are you breaking that up for somebody like that? Are you also having them, encouraging them to do four or five days a week and just kind of piece it out differently? I think it’s always helpful to kind of know, I mean everybody what that looks like.

0:22:23 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, everybody that I sit down with. You know the fruit. You know they asked. You know they asked me how many times a week should I do this? I don’t know. How many times do you want to do like well, what do you, what do you recommend? What’s the best way? I really don’t know. Like I feel, I feel like that’s what I, you know what I do, stuff six days a week, but I know that’s not practical for everybody. So, you know, I would say no less than two for most people. You know just, you know kids life. You know if you can get four in, great, if we shoot for four, we get three. I’d say that’s perfect, as long as we’re doing something. You do something explosive like that. You know, three days, three out of seven days, I think you’re, you’re probably doing fine, awesome.

0:23:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When I think of you and and your training and your knowledge, I just immediately think kettle bells You’re. You’re one of the first guys that I’ve known that I would consider you know, like a an expert coach in utilizing the kettle bells as a tool for so many different athletes, different ways of training your body for explosiveness and strength and power. What is it about kettle bells that that you love, and what’s so unique about them that you’ve used that, as I Think of, maybe one of your primary tools when you’re working with your athletes?

0:23:40 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, probably is, or at least it just becomes that one. It’s really easy to sequester Myself and a client, you know, one small space, because we have everything in front of us from an eight kilo to a 48 kilo bell, so that’s 17 pounds to 106. There’s something for everybody within that, within that range. And you can I mean even with you know if you just take a good middling size bell, so like a 12 kilo or 16 kilo, which is 26 to 36 pounds, you can. You can get in a full workout for some rear full training session with just that one bell and you can hit everything. You can get loaded mobility, you can get strength, you can get power, you can get everything that you need and conditioning, you get everything you need with one bell. And I think the versatility of it Is something that that draws me to that, because we can, we can answer a lot of questions With that, with that one tool, and you know we don’t have to go searching around for things.

And you know, one of the some of the feedback I get from show my clients when we write up, when we write a more varied program with More pieces of equipment, is why can’t do this at this gym because as soon as I leave the bench bench gets taken. Or soon as I leave this pulling machine, you know it’s gone as soon as I turn my back. So you know we use a kettlebell. We don’t necessarily have to deal with those those types of issues, we just grab a Mac, grab a bell and get to work. And then the second thing is just the nature of the bell. It’s a gym with a handle. So you know we can, we can do a lot of things with that one tool and you know, when that tool is used appropriately, we get we get really good results.

0:25:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I would say that when Most individuals think about a kettlebell, they think of kettlebell swings, maybe a couple. You know there’s a couple exercises, but obviously there’s a whole repertoire that you use water. What would you say are some of the staples that you have in? You know Almost every program that you devise, whether that be a young junior golfer all the way up to maybe even a senior golfer.

0:26:00 – Mitch Sadowsky
Man, so many like you just started one my brain with site face, I would probably say. Our typical ones that get into everybody’s program are Some type of lateral lunge, whether it’s a, whether it’s a low hold, a goblet hold or a single arm rack, goblet squats or a staple single-leg deadlifts, whether it’s a staggered stance or a true single-leg deadlift. I Think for most of my young Well, I wouldn’t say young I think everybody needs shoulder stability. So we do a ton of bottoms up, pressing for shoulder strength, shoulder stability, overhead position. You know, obviously kettlebell swings will do kettlebell cleans, we’ll do a lot of marching In types of different types of carries with the kettlebell. So we can get, you know, we can get a lot of high notes and really just sort of focus on the big six of Push, pull, hinge, squat, carry, some type of midsection work and get everybody in.

0:27:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’ve been watching your Instagram a lot lately and you know you’ve been talking a lot about utilizing them for core exercises and and non-traditional. You know, looking core exercises as most people think of your traditional Sit-up or even planks, things like that, but being able to utilize something like this in a whole different way to really help stabilize the midsection.

0:27:27 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, and I think, with when it comes to midsection work, I Think we tend to over complicate things quite a bit. You know, we look at. You know, can we, can we resist Rotation, can we resist lateral flexion, but can we control what we’re doing as well? So can we control rotation, can we control lateral flexion? And I think that’s that that’s really what we try to focus on, isn’t just the creation, but being able to control what we have.

You know, I think with golfers, you know, I tend to take the, the WD 40 duct tape Type of an idea when it comes to midsection of is it moving and shouldn’t? If it’s not moving and it should, we use WD 40. If it’s moving and it shouldn’t, we use duct tape. So we kind of look at the midsection. Is that, you know, are we moving too much? Because we talk a lot about golf mobility and golf movement, but I’ve seen more golfers get hurt because they don’t, they can’t control the movement that they have, and I think, getting people to understand that that we need to work more controlling our movement than we do, just trying to get more, and once that happens, I think there are a lot of, there are a lot of good things that Follow that.

0:28:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean, I think that’s a huge point that is very much overlooked by Especially the general general population or people that are looking at exercises online or searching for themselves. They constantly think at least this has been my experience they come in and I need to, I need more rotation, I need to be more flexible, I need to, I need to move this further. I need to do more of this. But, to your point, most people can’t control the movement that they do have and and I believe that if they had control over certain parts of the body, the part that they want to move actually would likely move better. And I’ve seen you even utilize the kettle bells and different Strength tools to help facilitate that mobility, which is kind of counterintuitive. People don’t think strength and mobility as being, you know, working together in the same, in the same session.

0:29:38 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, I can’t remember who said it, and it sort of resonated with me a while back I think. I think a lot of people have said it, but you know people that we follow, like Mike Boyle, great me Burton, charlie Weigroth said it. You know, putting a weight in somebody’s hand oftentimes will clean up their squat, and so is that way, is it? Is it a resistance or is it an assistance tool? You see somebody who can’t squat past 90 and you wonder okay, well, we got. You know, do we work on ankle mobility? Do we work on hip mobility? Do we work at forced ability? Where you put a weight in their hand, it all of a sudden their squat cleans right up and it looks great.

You like, wait a minute, we don’t work on any of these things. Maybe they just needed to figure out how to squat, how to load it. It’ll just get better immediately. Yeah, it doesn’t mean that we’re just gonna throw, you know, two wheels on somebody’s back on a bar and their squats gonna look great. But I think it’s a good starting point for them, where maybe we just need to load them a little bit more and Whatever hails them is probably gonna get cleaned up.

0:30:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Do you have any set parameters on any of the lifts, say like a goblet, squat or something of of what you’d like somebody to be able to To handle and get in through a full range of motion? Do you, do you set those kind of standards, or is it case by case basis?

0:31:00 – Mitch Sadowsky
Well, I think we always have. We always have some pre, what we would call prerequisites. You know I, I just by the nature of what we do, I don’t do a ton of back squatting. I think you can get a Lot of really good things just from a really heavy goblet squat and then you just build them up from there. You know I, if you really want a good challenge, pick up the beast, 106 kilo battle, get it up here and then goblet squat. You tell me you. Is that a good pre-requisite? I would probably say yes. So I think that’s one.

I think for deadlifts, if somebody is not at a 1x body weight deadlift, I think getting them there is a good start and then giving them to either 1.5 or 2x body weight. But I think the idea of chasing that number can go sideways as opposed to let’s just keep building, we’ll keep progressing, we’ll keep loading and let’s see where we are. So again, that’s something that we’re looking at. You know competency and load, and what does it look like with how much weight you can handle. So, is there such a thing as too strong? No, is there such a thing as not strong enough? I would probably tend to say yes. Do those have parameters. Yes, does that come with it? It depends, yeah, it always does.

0:32:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You said there’s. Is there anything such as being too strong? What do you think about some of the serious heavy lifting deadlifts? You know we’ve had Dr Stewart McGill on the show. We’ve had some people on the show that love going as heavy as possible with a deadlift. Dr McGill says it’s ideally not great, for the spine builds a lot of rigidity if you’re going too heavy. Where do you see that risk versus reward kind of come into play when it comes to something like a heavy deadlift? Or I know you mentioned that you don’t do much back squatting, so maybe deadlifts is probably the one to look at.

0:33:14 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, I mean one. You know we’ll look a little bit at some anthropometrics like what does somebody look like? What’s their femur like, what’s their tibial like, what’s their spine like, what are the ratios? That’ll dictate a little bit about what their deadlift looks like. But I think a lot of it is how do you handle the load? How much weight are we putting on you?

If you can pull four wheels off the ground pretty easily, I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that. If you’re really struggling to get four wheels off the ground, then maybe we need to back off a little bit. I tend to take a little bit of. Let’s look at percentages and what does 80% look like? What does 90% look like? Where do we need to live?

We can live in some fairly reasonable way so that the technical proficiency is there, and then we can challenge you at lower reps where we don’t chase one RM. It’s a nice number, but I want a technical RM. What’s your three TRM? What’s your five TRM? What’s your 10 TRM look like? And then let’s work off of those numbers because everybody wants a one-rep max, just to pop the chest out and see. But I don’t think there’s a lot of carry-on. How well can you do something X amount of times, as opposed to how poorly can you do it once, because nobody’s PR is ever pretty. Everybody who I’ve ever seen get their max back, squat, front, squat, deadlift They’ve all looked like garbage. I want to see how well you can pull something off the ground a certain amount of times and then let’s talk, because that becomes work capacity.

0:35:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and that’s really where I live too is I don’t really care how much you can lift one time, what can you do repetitively, what can you control? What can you move with speed when you need to move with speed and still do it well. So when you’re out on the golf course you can handle yourself and so we’re not hurting you. So you can’t get out to the golf course, first and foremost, yeah, I mean, the 45 year old doesn’t care what his 1 RM is.

0:35:36 – Mitch Sadowsky
You want RM, a deadlift or anything for a 45 year old. They’re going to be feeling it for days. I’m going to go on a swing at golf club. They’re going to lay on the couch. You know days that I decide that I’m going to or I’m programmed a heavier intensity day.

0:35:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I feel it for a couple of days.

0:35:55 – Mitch Sadowsky
I love it. I love that feeling, but not everybody does. I can’t put that. On that, I think we can create adaptations in a way where we’re meeting our client where they are, so that they feel like they’ve gotten some work done, but it doesn’t feel like somebody blew a floghorn into their CNS. I think that’s a little counter into it. Most people who we would both see when they associate deadlift, they associate 400 pounds and somebody yelling and spitting and their face turns red and eventually they’re going to blow off their back. I’m like no, let’s teach you how to deadlift with really good form. Pick something heavy up off the ground and your heavy is not my heavy, but let’s get you picking something comfortably off the ground and let’s build from there, because most people are stronger than they think. We just got to get them to understand that it’s safe and here’s the reasons behind it and we just go.

0:36:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I think that there’s many times where we underestimate ourselves in the capacity of what we can do in the gym. We get to a certain age us guys that are in our 40s and then into the 50s and assume that we should be starting to back off and not pushing ourselves quite as hard. But I think that when you do actually get in there and put yourself to the test, you realize, wait, I’m actually a little stronger and I’ve got a little more in the tank than I thought I did, which then is going to play out into what you’re doing when you go out on the golf course or whatever physical endeavor that you’re setting out for.

0:37:33 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, I think as we get north of 40, what I found, even for myself, is I can still go pretty heavy. I have to pay attention to I probably pay more attention to volume than intensity. I still like lifting heavy. I just have to pay attention to volume in my sessions or I’ll know that I got a lot of weight moved at a day. I’ll make some adjustments in that training for the next day. If I know that I’ve got a lot of work that I really want to play around with, I probably dial back a little bit in session day to day. But there are just some days where you know what, let’s put some ton of John on this old rig and let’s get it moving and I think the more that we load, the more we can create resiliency. And I think that for the over 40 crowd, creating better day-to-day resiliency is just probably one of the best things that we can work out.

0:38:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
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So be sure to go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So, again, go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG. What about for that crowd in regards to kind of what we were talking about before, the explosiveness and building that not just you know. Obviously, as we hit age 40, I think we tend to see that, you know, year by year by year, our speeds tend to decrease from a golf standpoint, but doesn’t have to necessarily. What are some of the things that you would recommend golfers look into doing or incorporating that help to build some more of that explosiveness, whether that be certain exercises or just certain techniques or different ways that you found to really help to build that up?

0:40:17 – Mitch Sadowsky
Don’t stop training explosively in the first place.

I think that’s key. I think most people can just slow down a little bit, like they’ll lift weights, you know, maybe not do as many med ball slams, or they’re doing med ball slams, it’s just not with the intent that we would need. I mean, you’ve got to come out of your shoes max effort, break the ball, put a hole in the floor, you know anything, anything possible that’s that’s as explosive as possible. I think we need to do that more often and not conflate the idea of strength and conditioning. And there’s a reason, there’s an and in between, but we also have to understand that there’s an or as well.

When we do something explosive, do it explosively and then just rest, hatch some downtime. Let’s not rush from one thing to the next to try to make it strength and conditioning all at once. You know, explosive work has its time, it’s got its place and let’s do that at the beginning of the workout, but do it as explosively as possible when you’re fresh and then let’s move on to our strength stuff and give it its due when you’re doing it.

0:41:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Something that I’ve heard you talk about is also that’s really important when you’re trying to build speed is building your brakes as well and Learning how to handle that speed. What do you mean by that?

0:41:50 – Mitch Sadowsky
Well, I’m working on a deceleration. You know working. You know, if you work on mobility like mobility is its own session, you really want to create long lasting range of motion changes. There’s got to be some intense there as well, rather than, you know, just doing some quadruped T-spot rotations, thinking all of a sudden this is gonna help, this is gonna help me rotate more. It’s like no, I mean, you’re just sort of warming up through a range, but you know, creating changes in that end range it is its own mobility session. But then we have to go.

Once we get that new raise, we actually have to learn how to access it, how to operate within that range. So we have a little bit more intense on on what we’re doing when we, when we build brakes no, like what we’re to loop this back around. I like what we were talking about earlier with core Not just gaining, not just using our midsection to create rotation, but to control the rotation, so that you know when are most people getting hurt. It’s not in their backswing, it’s in the finals here. Why? Because we have to do a better job of Controlling how far and how fast we go. So you know a lot of the. You know squats, legends, things like that. Those are gonna build bigger brakes for us so that we have the ability to control how fast we go.

0:43:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What are techniques to be able to do that, like? What are some of the things that you incorporate into Aside from just your, your typical squat lunge? You know the typical patterns.

0:43:28 – Mitch Sadowsky
I I think isometrics are awesome. I Don’t know too many of my clients that are like man great, we’re doing. I so holds today. They’re difficult, they’re challenging but by they provide a lot of big bang for your buck. There’s a lot of time under tension. There’s a lot of good hormonal responses to come from isos. There’s a lot of isometric that we use in our and from our PT side here. So I think those are good. Sometimes it’s just picking something heavy up being learning how to control that. I’d say those are probably the two, two easiest, lowest hanging pieces of three.

0:44:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When, when you’re looking at mobility on a lot of your golfers, where do you find some of the bigger issues? As far as you know, we talked about how everybody comes in and says they think they need mobility, they think they need more flexibility, but sometimes there are legitimate cases of areas that are tight or stiff or uncontrolled and not able to move. What are a couple of the ones that you know? We, I think we tend to think of the T spine, we think of the hips. Are there any other ones that you really see that we don’t really pay attention to?

0:44:39 – Mitch Sadowsky
Well, I think that I think the two biggest things for me are feet. What are your feet doing? And how many people are barefoot? How many people are walking around Letting their toes move, letting their feet move? That’s you know. That’s one I would say. The second one is breathing. We just get a lot of people who Breathe really, really inefficiently. You know, everything’s up into the shoulders and they breathe here instead of the rib cage being able to expand. I would say that the better you breathe, the better you move and the better your posture. And you know, when it comes to golf, your golf swing is going to be a reflection of your movement patterns, and median patterns are going to be a reflection of how what your rib cage moves, how well you breathe and what your posture looks like. So I think there’s you know there’s some really good benefits. You’re just cleaning those things up at the beginning and saying, okay, so it’s your way to adjust those things. Now let’s start laying a few other things on from there.

0:45:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’ve also seen you highlight recently just even the, the lats, the lat length in A lot of the golfers, and you mentioned before that you do a lot of overhead stuff. You think it’s very important for for people to work on their overheads. How does the, how do the lats and what this tight is there? How does that impact a golfer and what does that look like in their golf swing and what does it look like when you, when you then help them improve that?

0:46:00 – Mitch Sadowsky
So one of the things oh for everyone that’s familiar with the TPI golf screen being able to control pelvic tilt and what your posture looks like. It’s set up how, where the lats attached through the lower back and the faster the lower back a Tight, short lat is going to give you that as posture. It’s going to pop your chest forward, it’s going to bring the lower back into that interior till. Everything along this side, along the lats, is going to be tight. That’s also going to affect being able to reach across their body. So that’s our lead arm being able to come across into the back swing, that’s the trail arm being able to reach, stay long, keeping straight arms through impact. So being able to have a back that moves better, having better lat length.

We do test the overhead flexion position to check lat length as well. That because really really important for us. We know, for you know, we know what what swing faults are created through poor lat lengths and poor, poor set up posture. So I think that’s a it’s an under under appreciated standpoint. It’s set up and that’s also one of the reasons why we we address breathing so much as well as we can get a much more Neutral pelvis position, putting somebody in supine on their back, getting a more neutral pelvis and then getting them to breathe Efficiently from there, and I can clean up a lot, of, a lot of issues.

0:47:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’ve. I’ve really come to appreciate over the last couple of years and through you know, watching people like you and a lot of the other coaches that we’ve had on the show the importance of working on breath work for myself and with clients and how that it can impact even neurologically what you’re doing. You know the your breath has so much to do with the way that your body responds, how well you’re going to get into that motion and how well you’re going to utilize that mobility and it’s it’s really kind of opened my eyes to how much it impacts your posture and ultimately impacts your performance day to day.

0:48:05 – Mitch Sadowsky
Yeah, there’s a. There’s a lot of really really good. Again, what the heck benefits of proper breathing mechanics? Just from oxygenation in the blood, how well we move, being able to toggle between sympathetic and parasympathetic just Americans, by nature, are Stuck in sympathetic overdrive. We don’t know how to toggle down. We can’t get in a parasympathetic when we need to. We can’t calm down. We have a harder time sleeping, like they’re just this cascading effect of Not being able to to control those two areas of our nervous system. And so that’s one.

Yes, obviously sleeping is a huge part of recovery and, and you know, even just from breathing you can learn how to brace better. And when you learn how to brace, that’s going to affect our how we control our body at impact. If you have a really good ability to brace, absorbing a punch, we are able to strike the ball with Much less deceleration and inertia when you contact the ball, because this is for somebody that doesn’t know how to brace. So I think there’s a lot of really cool crossover things between breathing mechanics and and golf. I learned so much just from Reading the book, the book breath, by James Nester. There’s a lot of really really cool things in there, but I think everybody can benefit from yeah, that that book is.