How to characterise an American indie band over almost three decades and 10 albums, each with a subtly different flavour? One recent review I read described Death Cab For Cutie as “masters of dreamy, emo-tinged Americana” and while that’s rather simplistic, their previous two albums have had a ‘dreamy’ feel, a softer production and reflective almost gentle character (or as Ben Gibbard described one of their earlier records, “Prozac happiness”). 

The band's new LP Asphalt Meadows has something more vital and varied going for it however, with the band capturing a combination of post-pandemic zest for life with a state of self-reflection. There’s a depth and a mystery to the record that somehow seems fitting with the band’s current standing – one of a handful of longevous indie Americana bands that can make exactly the music they want to make with no interference. Not even from a major label such as Atlantic Records. Ben Gibbard confirms:

“Atlantic Records have never once stepped in to change something or baulked at a creative decision we’ve made. It’s been the exact opposite of the horror story narrative that you hear about all the time”.

Indeed. The music industry’s elephant’s graveyard of indie bands that signed to major labels but could not make it work may be large, but it does not and will not see the likes of Death Cab For Cutie. Over almost 18 years with Atlantic Records, you’ve made things work - what has been the secret to that?

Nick Harmer:

“It is a symbiotic relationship. Atlantic has brought stability and worked steadily and have become a dependable band from their perspective. There have been so many elements of luck to it but we’ve both worked really hard on every record”.

While Nick is impressed at how many new bands seen to arrive 'fully formed', like all bands of longevity, Ben Gibbard struggles with the idea of being in a position to advise bands now as to how to forge that path, especially in today’s more competitive and less forgiving circumstances. 

“The stakes for saying something uncouth in an interview or having a bad show, for fucking up – are so much higher now than when we started. It’s important to remember to have fun. We’ve always gone in with the singular focus of making music that we’re proud of and that says something about our lives”.

Death Cab are not always immediately associated with fun, the abstract themes in their songs often coming across more thoughtful and cerebral. But they have arrived in a place where they can enjoy their longevity and let the music go where they want it. Something tells me their fans will be equally happy with the place they are in today. 

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Before I spoke with Danny McNamara, he’d emailed me to say how much he loved Brett Anderson’s quote - the one we’ve set out to make famous on The Art of Longevity. Not only did he recognise it as capturing the band’s career but Embrace have been through the cycle at least twice - the struggle (1990-’96), stratospheric rise (their debut The Good Will Out), the crash to the bottom (that first time dropped by their label) and enlightenment (Out Of Nothing). And then all over again.

Consider - the band had been on a three year break from 2007-2010 and then holed up creating a new record for all of four years - setting out nobly to better their debut. Meanwhile, the music industry changed beyond all recognition. Spotify had launched, and was into hyper-growth by 2014 - destroying the CD and threatening to make the album concept redundant. As such, the band’s most experimental and sonically ambitious record (and my personal favourite), the self-titled Embrace, was a commercial disappointment at a time when it became difficult to even assess what commercial success was for any album.

Still, Embrace served its purpose, setting the band on course for a creative renaissance after they had been burnt out by album number five This New Day in 2006). We spoke as the band released album number eight, the outstanding and humbly titled How To Be A Person Like Other People. 

As a recently self-diagnosed introvert and medically diagnosed as OCD, McNamara has ridden the music industry rollercoaster and done rather well to stay sane. In recent times, marriage and fatherhood have further set Danny and his bandmates on a stable course, to not only carry on making music for as long as they want to (nobody can drop them or stop them) but to make their music. Embrace’s brand of emotionally charged and sometimes swaggering pop-rock is a humanistic joy - if you simply surrender to it. A sort of pop music version of freediving. 

There’s a good heart within Embrace and the ambition to keep getting better still beats strongly. 

"What Embrace are, is really special and what we should be doing with our energy is mining that, not ploughing the field wide but digging down and see what there is in the ground. Then we will be honouring what we’ve been given as a group and that way, we can get better". 

Danny's take on the band's longevity is reflective, funny and contains more humility than you'll get from those 'hedge fund gangsters' and tech billionaires that run the business he and his band have survived for 32 years. They should mark his words!

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Having helped pave the way, Alela remains at the heart of a very strong current movement for female troubadours - a scene driven by the success of the likes of Sharon Van Etten, Angel Oslen, Julien Baker and even Phoebe Bridgers - but harking back to Joni Mitchell. It was Cat Power that proved an inspiration to Alela herself when she first started out making The Pirate’s Gospel, then aged 19. 

It’s taken almost five years for Alela to create another record since Cusp. Between raising her two young daughters (making a lot of snacks), renovating her Portland home and like all of us - getting through the global pandemic - it has taken time, graft and discipline to craft songs to a standard she has set for herself. But once she got into the studio (not just any studio but Tucker Martine’s ‘Flora’ in Northeast Portland, Oregon) the songs were recorded quickly. The new album Looking Glass processes the themes of domesticity, love & loss and how to face these dark times. In Alela’s words the record is about:

“Feeling the lightness and the darkness of the world at large. How do you get through your day-to-day life? How do we create a sweet, peaceful world for your children when there’s a lot of chaos out there”.

No doubt the record will act as a tonic to the blurry gloom outside your window. I would highly recommend you drink it down. 

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Interpol have honed their craft over 20 years since they ‘blasted’ onto the scene in 2002 with Turn On The Bright Lights - another one of those infamous overnight successes (actually the culmination of five years of hard graft). The album received a 9.5 Pitchfork review, with music journalist Eric Carr expressing unobjective fandom with some pretty colourful adjectives:

“Interpol's debut full-length is wrought with emotional disconnection and faded glory, epic sweep and intimate catharsis.”

Indeed. Yet this band, somewhat badged over the years as art-rock, gloom-rock and what have you - has changed over 25 years - to the extent that The Other Side Of Make Believe surprised their immediate circle of friends, management, label, publishers. 

Interpol has seen almost every longevity trend this podcast has discovered: the much hyped yet long-in-coming debut, the adventure with major labels and global stardom (and then being dropped), the madness of the rock & roll lifestyle, the loss of a founding member (bassist Carlos Dengler left in 2009) and the realisation that the industry they are part of isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Since Interpol came on the scene, everything about the music industry has changed, yet Interpol has built on a distinctive and sturdy brand.  There is a sense of the collective unit about everything they do. As Daniel puts it: 

“I would bet on Paul and Sam as creative forces every time.”

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“I’ve recognised that music is sort of like an inner voice that is telling me what to do. When I was younger it was telling me what to sound like. As I became more sophisticated as a writer and performer, the instruction became more original. I just learned to be receptive to that. I’ve chosen to make my life like that”. 

By listening to that inner voice, Mike Scott has given the world a lot of pleasure. From celebs to fellow musicians to fans of all generations, The Waterboys have written a whole bunch of those songs one might describe as “life affirming”. Love songs, folk songs, protest songs and brilliant pop songs have come through Mike Scott with remarkable (and if you’re another songwriter, enviable) consistency. 

In recent times, Scott has been nothing if not prolific. Recent album All Souls Hill came off the back of a trilogy of albums: 2017’s Out of All This Blue, 2019’s Where the Action Is, and 2020’s Good Luck, Seeker. The Waterboys had their fans wondering what direction they would go this time, musically speaking, but it looks like they will be left waiting another year or so before the next true phase of the band is revealed.

“I want to wait a bit longer before we release this next album. There’s a strong theme to it, and some interesting collaborators. It even opens with a song not sung by me”.

I noticed in listening to these later records that spoken-word numbers have become more of a thing for Mike Scott, and that many of his songs are also increasingly biographical - essentially documenting the life & times of Mike Scott (check out London Mick, Ladbroke Grove, In My Dreams and even recent single Glastonbury Fayre, wrote in celebration of the band’s recent 11th appearance at Glastonbury 2022). 

Both these song styles are bang on trend, not that Scott has noticed. How would he? One simple secret to The Waterboys’ longevity is having no distractions. Mike doesn’t have a TV, never listens to the radio and uses socials in a pretty pointed, functional way. It’s a lifestyle that has given him the space to not just be productive, but prolific in recent years. 

"Artists need space, not just to listen to what’s going on in your head, but also to feel what’s in your gut. If the idea in my head isn’t confirmed by my gut I don’t do it. But I need quiet to hear that”.

Maybe it’s having that sense of perspective. And no distractions. Whatever it is that makes the miracle happen. The Waterboys seem as fresh and relevant as ever. 

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The music journalist Paul Lester described Everything Everything as “a riot in a melody factory”, a perfect description for a band positively clattering with ideas, yet on the new album Raw Data Feel, I get the sense that the band has learned the craft of what to leave out. Judge for yourself but do apply the usual rule - listen three times first!

On longevity, singer and co-writer Jonathan Higgs felt that Everything Everything crossed the rubicon on the band’s third album Get To Heaven (2015) after which “we can probably stop worrying about being in a band as a job, that we’ve woken enough people up to us that we could probably sustain. We always approached the band as a long-term thing but we see our longevity as a lasting cult rather than a big band that once had a few big hits”.

Indeed, Everything Everything is one of those bands that have carved out a fruitful, lasting existence without ever having ‘a hit’. The band's following is diverse, from ‘prog dads’ to teenage girls to electronic music fans. With four top five albums and two Mercury Prize nominations, the band has earned its place on the cultural landscape. However, it was telling that the day after my conversation with Jonathan, the Everything Everything was due to sit down with their management for a ‘brand strategy meeting’ in which the main topic on the agenda was “how are we doing as a band, because it’s really difficult to tell”. 

Somehow, I feel like Raw Data Feel has the potential to move the band up a notch or two, even if it is hard to know exactly what that means these days. 

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After her second album Fires (2005) Nerina Pallot was hot property. She kissed the frog that is ‘fame’ in the music industry, with a BRIT nomination, Ivors nomination and even an appearance on Top Of The Pops. Never quite comfortable with that, her third album The Graduate (2009) was an uneven affair that failed to keep the spotlight shining Nerina’s way. That turned out for the better…

When I heard her new record, the ironically titled I Don’t Know What I’m Doing, I found myself instantly liking it but sensing that the record would grow on me as well - an album that will keep on revealing new depths. In that respect, I wasn’t surprised to hear that the inspiration behind it was the ‘proper pop’ tunes of the 70s: Kate Bush, Stevie Wonder, ABBA, Barry Gibb, Judie Tzuke, Leo Sayer, Carole King and Elkie Brooks! The album is awash in 70s style keyboards and real tunes. If only that Late Night Taxi Ride radio show of mine would ever get off the ground, Nerina’s brand of grown-up pop would feature rather more prominently than it currently does on the UK radio! Or even USA radio for that matter. 

“I got flown out tons of times by American labels who thought that Everybody’s Gone To War would be a big radio record, but how do you sell an album that is nothing like the single? I’m not a straightforward sell. I never have been. But that’s where I’m happy”. 

Her relatively low profile these days is more a frustration for her fans than Nerina herself, however. Like so many other artists of longevity, Pallot has long since eschewed the attachment to such industry accolades, but her connection to the fan base seems unbreakable:

“I have a strong contract with my audience. The fans are a big part of my records - I want them to feel like at least 3 or 4 songs connect with them - the rest is gravy”. It’s been a circuitous route each time to get my records made, so I don’t want to let them down”. 

That frame of mind is what  makes a Nerina Pallot album such a treat, and her live shows the best kept secret in town. Good for those lucky, loyal fans. 

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Inspired by recent collaborations with some of America's coolest indie A-listers (Vampire Weekend's Ezra Koenig, Danielle Haim, Justin Vernon aka Bon Iver, James Mercer, Jamila Woods) Bruce Hornsby has been prolific in recent times, making a trilogy of albums beginning with the ‘return-to-form album’ Absolute Zero (2019). This trilogy is a real display of Hornsby’s musical prowess and curiosity – a mix of progressive, avant garde pop and contemporary classical works. Completing the trio of albums, Flicted, Hornsby’s 23rd studio record, is a collection of songs built from ‘cues’ for his music to Spike Lee’s films (Bruce and Spike have been collaborating since the early 90s).

The album features some phenomenal side players including the producer Blake Mills (on guitar) and yMusic, a Brooklyn-based chamber sextet that lends lush arrangements throughout. Indeed as Bruce hints during our conversation, more is to come from his sessions with yMusic.

“I’m a lifelong student and I’m way more interested in getting better as a musician, a vocalist and especially as a writer. I’ve been getting nasty letters ever since my second record saying “how dare you change”, but my silent response is “you haven’t heard anything yet.”

Perhaps all ‘pop’ musicians of longevity should aspire to Bruce Hornsby’s musically borderless, ‘post-genre’ way of working.

“My art of longevity is not giving a rat's ass about what’s popular, or whether I’m popular but to please myself and to grow, evolve, change and expand…on and on”.

When it comes to music, and Bruce Hornsby, whatever you do, don’t call it a comeback. 

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We spoke to Joey Burns on the eve of Calexico's recent European shows in Brussels and London. Calexico play bigger venues in Europe than they do on their home turf, despite inventing a sound that conveys that land so evocatively. Indeed, it was music journalist Fred Mills who captured the band’s sound so perfectly with just two words: “desert noir”.  What a cool subgenre to have invented. Since most music writers lazily throw in all the various tex mex music flavours in describing Calexico’s sound, Joey is happy to clarify:

“We are connected more with mariachi and cumbia than say tex mex or tejano or norteño which has a different connection to a different tradition. For the most part we are mariachi, cumbia. I’ve never felt like I’ve mastered anything, but I’m lucky enough to play with some of those that have”. 

Calexico is touring as a septet, with Burns and partner/drummer John Convertino accompanied by Sergio Mendoza, MARIACHI LUZ DE LUNA, upright bass virtuoso Scott Colberg and the brilliant guitar player and singer Brian Lopez. The set combines magical mariachi of the highest possible standard, yet when the band chooses to (as on the thrilling Then You Might See) they jam out extended plays of true sonic power in the style of Radiohead or James. In combining those elements the band’s singularity is astonishing. 

I can usually pinpoint exactly how I discovered a new band of longevity and for Calexico it was a recommendation from the late, erudite Robert Sandall, BBC Radio 3 presenter of Late Junction and one time Head of PR for Virgin Records. He told me I must listen to Feast of Wire three times. He was very specific about it. I remain entirely grateful to Robert. There is nothing quite like a recommendation that sticks. Not only did that one tether me to Calexico for life, but the ‘listen three times’ rule is something I have adopted as a tactic in my own recommendations. I implore you, thrice discerning listeners. It is well-known that beautiful things often come in threes. 

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When your host purchased The Divine Comedy's Fin De Siècle in 1998, I couldn’t quite penetrate it at the time. Listening again to the record in preparation for this conversation with Neil Hannon  I have to say, I missed out. As Hannon describes himself, the album was “a musical hallucinogen". Essentially a sombre affair in which Hannon exercises all his fascinations with troubadour influences, Scott Walker, Jacques Brel, even Charles Aznavour. Oh, and Faith No More. And why not? Despite its rather avant garde nature, the album plays host to The Divine Comedy’s biggest hit and probably best known song, The National Express. Why, I wondered, would a pop star like Neil Hannon possibly be travelling around the country by coach? (you’ll have to listen in for the answer). 

The Divine Comedy perhaps never made the ‘A List’ of the 1990s British music boom. Hannon’s journey was not that of Oasis, The Stone Roses or Blur, or even more kindred spirits, Pulp. But, Hannon still had three solid years of full-on fame. As he describes it:

“The heights and the valleys are shallower in my experience than Suede or others. But, I looked through my old diaries recently and the difference between one year and the next - suddenly I didn’t have a day to myself for the next three years. It drove me mad, but I came out the other side”. 

With that quote, Neil Hannon captures his very own successful recipe for longevity - namely don’t get too carried away. However, that gentle roller coaster ride has rolled on, largely down to Hannon’s ability to write very good songs. Those songs and Hannon’s independent, self-reliance has seen The Divine Comedy mature very nicely indeed. Despite the industry’s ebbs and flows since his debut album Fanfare for the Comic Muse in 1990, Hannon still gets asked to do interesting projects (writing the music for a Willie Wonka prequel), still goes on successful tours (pandemic permitting) and still gets played on the radio (now & again). 

I asked Neil if that really is the secret to longevity in pop music - on top of everything else - to be able to knock out great songs?

“I feel like it might be. You never quite know. I sat in the control room in Abbey Road while the orchestra played their part on Our Mutual Friend. I remember thinking well, that’s the best thing I’ve ever done. “After Regeneration [2001] I knew I had to change things or I’m doomed. I have to make the record that makes me happy. I went back to the source - pure 60s orchestral pop with layers of golden age British pop. It got me back on course. It was easier after that. To know you don’t have to go looking - just do what you do - and an audience will come”. 

The amazing thing about bands of longevity is how new audiences keep on coming. No doubt a benefit of the streaming era, always on music, playlists and discovery algorithms. But good songs are the essential ingredient and Hannon has a bounty of them.  As a "musical entity, a singer-songwriter", Hannon is a rather distant pop star.

“I’m not sure I was ever really a pop star, though at one point I did read the manual, so I knew what I was doing”.

Sounds like it. 

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