“And I think there's also just something about an unfettered or uncensored id that is so captivating. We all have that fantasy of doing exactly what we want with no consequences and sort of letting that go. I think when you see an athlete at the peak of their game, doing that embodied thing and living that dream, or when someone has actually done horrible things that you would never allow yourself to do, there is a fascination there. I had one teacher who said, "Anyone who drives you crazy or that you just cannot stand in life, put them in a play or put them in a scene, and the audience will love them." If someone has really gotten under your skin and you just cannot stand them, and you have a visceral reaction—like, "I just hate this person"—make them a character, and the audience will make them everyone's favorite character. There is something to that.”

Today, we explore the dark psychology of obsession, guilt, and the thin line between predator and victim. Our guests are two of television's most accomplished architects of high-stakes drama and moral ambiguity: Howard Gordon, the showrunner and executive producer whose work defined a generation of thrillers with 24 and the multi-award-winning Homeland; and Daniel Pearle, an executive producer and writer who brings a distinct, penetrating depth from his background as a celebrated playwright and his work on series like Accused and American Crime Story..

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