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Have you ever wondered how to sell a bold idea in the boardroom? Not just an idea different from what your organisation usually tends to do, but a really bold one that breaks ground in your industry? What does it take? What do you need?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses selling bold ideas in the boardroom with Dr Andy Palmer CMG, former COO at Nissan and President & Group CEO of Aston Martin.  Known as “the Godfather of EVs."  Today, he is a turnaround specialist stepping in as Interim CEO / Executive Chair at Optare/Switch Ltd, PodPoint plc and Brill Power Ltd.  

“More than anything else, if you want to get on, then you got to work hard.”
Andy credits hard work as the key to his success, acknowledging the sacrifices required. While his family enjoyed the benefits of his career, it came at a cost to time spent with them. Talent and education matter, but perseverance drives leadership.

“What do I need to understand that would allow me to solve that problem?”
Andy’s interdisciplinary experiences and deep industry exposure contributed to his achievements. His work on the Nissan LEAF taught him the importance of the "three Cs" in battery technology: chemistry, control, and cooling, shaping his focus on zero-emission solutions.

“When the whole company is essentially against you, how important air cover is!”
Selling the LEAF to Nissan’s board was tough—many favoured hybrids. Andy proposed skipping hybrids for fully electric vehicles. CEO Carlos Ghosn’s support was pivotal, providing Andy the "air cover" to push his bold vision.

“Being a CEO should be about leadership, but there's so much about corporate governance that sort of forces you to be safe.”
Andy reflects on the cautious nature of modern corporate governance, which can stifle innovation. He calls on non-executive directors to back CEOs willing to take calculated risks and pursue groundbreaking ideas.

“I've always been very happy to be the lowest IQ in the room.”
For bold leadership, Andy values diverse, multidisciplinary teams, effective communication, and empathy. He believes leaders must inspire confidence, even among sceptics, to gain support for their vision.

The three top takeaways from our conversation for effective boards are:

1.    Find something you love and can be passionate about in your career. 

2.   Education is more than just studying a particular subject - academia is about personal growth. So you've got to know a particular discipline well and build your skill sets in other areas, like finance and communication. 

3.   Ultimately, we all work with people, and your ability to build empathy and sell something rather than tell something is important.

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Every year, the world's preeminent leadership advisory firm, Egon Zehnder, surveys CEOs to identify issues and challenges they face and how they deal with them. In this podcast, we highlight key findings and discuss the implications for CEOs and Nomination Committees challenged to align on the search criteria for CEOs

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses how to lead through complexity with Dr Nadine Rinck, a partner in Egon Zehnder's Munich office. She heads Egon Zehnder’s infrastructure sector in EMEA and focuses on board advisory and CEO succession across sectors. 

“95% of the CEOs expect groundbreaking systemic changes in the next decade”
Nadine shares that 95% of CEOs anticipated groundbreaking systemic changes in the next decade.   The study also identified the top five critical challenges for CEOs: talent acquisition and development, AI adoption and impact, market disruptions, geopolitical instability and climate change/ecological impact.  Nadine highlights that these challenges are not isolated, and their interconnected nature makes them even more difficult to navigate.  

“The world is currently moving from complicated to complex”
Nadine explains that complexity introduces challenges for which no clear solution exists, no matter how much effort or money is invested. The world is shifting from being merely complicated to truly complex. This shift brings heightened uncertainty and often fear among teams and stakeholders.  

“What can I do to make my CEO become better and support him or her in navigating this complexity?”
Nadine emphasises that navigating complexity does not mean CEOs must solve every problem themselves or adopt a hierarchical approach.  Instead, CEOs are turning to specific sources for advice and support when tackling complex challenges.  However, a surprising gap exists in how often CEOs engage independent board members or chairs for guidance.  Only 17% consult their independent board members and just 13% turn to their chairs for advice.  

“Leaders will need to develop adaptive abilities”
Nadine acknowledges that tackling today’s challenges requires a fundamental shift - a complete update of the “operating system” of leadership.  For future CEOs, this means transforming their leadership identity and focusing on emotional intelligence and personal growth.  She outlines three meta-competencies that form the foundation for adaptive leadership. 

The first is self-awareness, which requires the ability to self-reflect and be brutally honest with oneself.  The second meta-competency is relational capability, which includes building trust, forming networks, and genuinely connecting with others.  The third meta-competency she describes is adaptability, which requires leaders to let go of outdated beliefs and unlearn no longer beneficial behaviours or strategies.  

“Take people out of their comfort zones and see them in different settings and environments”
Nadine emphasises that while a candidate’s CV and experience remain critical, boards (and particularly nomination committees) must go beyond traditional criteria to understand behaviours and personalities for internal talent and CEO succession pipelines, building relationships with potential candidates much earlier in their careers, long before the formal selection process begins.  

The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are the three meta-competencies to help CEOs navigate complexities:

1.      Self-awareness

2.     Relational capabilities

3.     Adaptability.

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There are many different types of crises, and how boards deal with them, so it is prudent to be aware of typical mistakes, what works, and what boards can do to deal well with these situations.   Are there any ‘golden rules’ that can serve as a starting point to prepare a board and ensure effectiveness and performance in a crisis?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses crisis and the board with Barbara Lambert, a professional Board Member who chairs or is a member of the Audit, Risk and Nomination Committees.  Her current and past mandates include Banque Pictet & Cie SA, Deutsche Börse AG, Implenia AG, Merck KgaA, Synlab AG and UBS Switzerland.  Barbara spent 20 years at Arthur Andersen/Ernst & Young as a senior partner and Head of the Audit practice for banks and insurance.  In 2008, she started as Head of Internal Audit at Pictet Group in Geneva and became a member of the Management Board as Group Chief Risk Officer. 

“A crisis coming from external events has more often a greater speed … and internal crises are more likely to be hidden and evolve gradually”
Barbara reflects on her extensive experience managing crises over four decades, having identified clear patterns that emerge in such situations.  

“I wish it was really a once-in-a-lifetime experience”
Barbara describes one of the most critical mistakes she has witnessed boards make during a crisis - underestimating the situation.  Overconfidence often leads to a dangerous mindset of "this cannot happen to us," resulting in a failure to engage in proper scenario planning or not considering worst-case scenarios.  What starts as a manageable issue can quickly snowball into an uncontrollable avalanche. Barbara cites the collapse of Arthur Andersen, her former employer, where what began as a crisis ultimately ended with the company's demise.  

“It starts before the crisis, so the board should know where the company is vulnerable”
Drawing on nearly 40 years of experience in crisis management, Barbara outlines the key practices she has seen boards adopt to navigate crises effectively.  Success begins long before a crisis occurs, with boards identifying vulnerabilities and ensuring regular, comprehensive updates on the company’s risk profile.  She highlights the value of an early warning system. According to Barbara, a well-prepared, united board can make the difference between crisis recovery and failure.  

“I think that there's no miracle, but there's just a solution”
Barbara acknowledges that preparing for crises amidst packed agendas is challenging but insists that the solution lies in prioritising time.  Today’s board roles demand significant commitment—in reading documents and engaging deeply with strategic discussions, management, and fellow board members.  She highlights how the role of a board member has evolved into a full-time commitment. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Crisis management starts before the crisis, so as a board member, you must ensure that the company is prepared with scenarios, contingency plans and a robust risk management framework. 
2.     Do not overestimate your availability before you accept a new or additional mandate. Honestly, decide if you really have the time to do it. 
3.     Crises and challenges are here to stay because of the current economic, technological and geopolitical environment. As a board member, you need to show that you can be the solid rock to whom executive management can turn.

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The ESG narrative has become familiar but does not yet confront the challenges of a world where interest in sustainability is waning in some regions, political and economic divides are widening, and technology is reshaping the rules of the game.  How can boards maintain momentum on climate and social issues when governments are focused on regulation and public interest is fractured?  

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses whether corporate governance can survive sustainability with Frederik Otto, Director of Advisory and Head of Europe at global consulting and standards firm AccountAbility. Previously, he founded and led The Sustainability Board, a globally recognised think tank for sustainable leadership and corporate governance. 

“The purpose of the company is not just to provide profits to shareholders, but to serve all of their stakeholders.”
Frederik starts by explaining that sustainability is intricately tied to governance through stakeholder management and engagement.  He recalls how the topic gained traction from 2017 to 2019, with influential figures such as Larry Fink of BlackRock and the US Business Roundtable emphasising that a company’s purpose extends beyond delivering profits to shareholders. That narrative led to a push for better oversight of sustainability issues.  

“The last five years have been quite the journey for sustainability.”
Frederik acknowledges that there is a sense of ideological fatigue around terms such as ESG and sustainability, and these words may even have become divisive, but the underlying issues remain critical.  He stresses that a board’s fiduciary duty includes ensuring sustainability matters are given due consideration.

“We were seeing all these shiny sustainability reports and board disclosures… …that were very explicit in how the corporation is providing value to all sorts of stakeholders.”
Frederik explains how the drivers of sustainability have shifted.  While employee activism and stakeholder pressure were dominant five years ago, economic challenges such as inflation and layoffs have reduced their influence.  Particularly in Europe, regulators have stepped in to fill this gap with legislation. 

 Frederik highlights three key sustainability trends emerging for the future:

1. Nature and Biodiversity - Risks such as biodiversity loss are gaining attention, along with opportunities like nature-based solutions.
2. Artificial Intelligence - AI impacts businesses through changes to business models, operational challenges like cybersecurity, and ethical considerations.
3. Geopolitics and Geo-economics - Global hostilities, trade restrictions, and national security concerns related to climate change are influencing board agendas.

“Do more scenario planning, do it more provocatively, and look as far as possible.”
Frederik stresses that boards must prioritise long-term sustainability goals alongside immediate operational challenges.  He identifies three core responsibilities for boards: routine governance, crisis management, and future planning.  He emphasises that robust scenario planning is vital for proactive governance, urging boards to explore even unlikely but plausible future scenarios. 

The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:

1.      Align the strategic, strategic intent between organisation management and the board, removing terminology
2.     Remove the words sustainability and ESG and consider these as global issues, systemic risks, and opportunities.
3.     Try to forecast better and spend more time on talking and thinking about the future.

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The board is responsible for appointing the CEO, and the relationship between the Chair and the CEO is crucial - but often not easy.  So what matters when selecting a CEO, and how can we establish and develop a good relationship between the Chair and the CEO? 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses the crucial relationship between the Chair and the CEO with Sir David Norgrove, currently a Governor at the University of the Arts and Chair of the aBDRN Financial Fairness Trust.  Sir David has held a number of chairing roles in leading public sector organisations. His early career was at the Treasury, at First National Bank of Chicago, and as Private Secretary to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. This was followed by Marks & Spencer from 1988 to 2004, including as a member of its Board.

“It's important to be on the shop floor and to see what's going on.”

Sir David relates that during his 16 years at M&S, he worked under three chairmen, all of whom held the dual role of Chair and Chief Executive - an approach less common today.  While the third eventually separated these roles, the first two were dominant and highly authoritative figures. Their leadership styles had significant drawbacks, particularly a reluctance to encourage challenge or dissent.  Too often, the board acted as a rubber stamp for their decisions.  Despite these challenges, Sir David learned valuable lessons.  

“The dictatorial approach is subtle, but it's still there.”

Sir David reflects on past experiences in the boardroom, acknowledging that standards were quite different decades ago.  He recalls unacceptable behaviour, with a culture of bullying and a dictatorial approach that at times crossed the line.  He believes this leadership style was deeply damaging to the business and carried that lesson with him into his later roles.  

“Having the right CEO is the number one, two and three most important things for a chair.”

Sir David emphasises that selecting the right CEO is the most critical responsibility for a chair, ranking it as priorities one, two, and three.  He believes that the wrong appointment can strain the chair/CEO relationship and lead to organisational unhappiness and failure to meet objectives.  While acknowledging the difficulty of defining the perfect CEO, he recognises the need for trade-offs.  He focuses on core qualities.  A CEO must be direct, transparent and willing to speak openly about issues.  

“All you can do is trust your instinct - and that can be wrong.”

Sir David acknowledges the inherent challenges of assessing candidates, especially in determining whether they meet the criteria and trust can be established.  However, he believes no process can guarantee absolute certainty, as ultimately, decisions rely on instinct, which is not infallible.  

“The person you're talking to is the Chief Executive. He's not your underling.”

Sir David believes building and maintaining a strong relationship with a CEO requires adapting to the individual's character.  He emphasises the importance of regular, consistent communication, which often takes the form of a weekly meeting or phone call to discuss what’s happening in the business, address mutual concerns, and ensure an open line of dialogue.   

The two top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:

1.      Have the right CEO.  If the CEO isn't right, then the CEO should go.

2.     Ask questions.  Get out and about, go and visit places and sit down with people, get them to tell you what they're doing. There's no substitute for it.

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Amid global uncertainty, are boardrooms needlessly complex? Is It possible to thrive in the boardroom by keeping things simple? 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Director of Better Boards www.better-boards.com, discusses being on the board with Sir John Tusa.  Sir John has been known to the public as the main presenter of BBC2's Newsnight and the Managing Director of some of the most iconic media and cultural centres in the United Kingdom. 

“The things that really make a difference are what I call the simple ones”
Sir John suggests that although being on a board involves significant challenges in an increasingly complex world, it is not necessarily complicated.  He explains that the complicated aspects of board service involve fundamental duties: understanding the organisation’s legal basis, following regulatory expectations, and recognising responsibilities toward shareholders or stakeholders. These regulatory and procedural tasks are necessary, but are only part of the board’s work.  Simple, straightforward actions and values can truly make a difference. They hold substantial value in shaping the organisation’s success and fulfilling the board’s deeper purpose.

“The more generous you can be with your time, the better it is for the organisation, and the better it is for you as a board member”
Regarding time, Sir John also points out that when he was first invited to join the board of the English National Opera around 25 years ago, the chair reassured him that annual board commitments would be minimal.  Since then, expectations have evolved significantly, and today board roles can easily demand 30 to 40 days or more per year. 

“When I hear the word board pack, I almost want to reach for my bonfire”
He describes a frustration he has with the common organisational tactic where executives overload non-executive directors with extensive paperwork.  In some organisations, this may be deliberate, to overwhelm non-executive board members with so much information that it becomes virtually impossible for them to thoroughly review or question it.  This tactic, he argues, is a way for executives to discourage meaningful input from non-execs by drowning them in details.  To counteract this, he advocates a slim board pack approach.  

“If you don't know your fellow board members, you probably don't know the executive well enough either”
Sir John emphasises the critical importance of knowing fellow board members and even the executive team well, viewing this familiarity as vital to effective board service.  A disconnect among directors and executives stems largely from the overwhelming focus on paperwork and procedural accountability, which, in his view, can impede meaningful connections and decision-making.  

“There are no stupid questions, and there are no stupid opinions”
Sir John offers direct advice to board members who feel overwhelmed by excessive paperwork and information overload and stresses the importance of voicing concerns and setting boundaries if the volume of information prevents them from making informed contributions.  

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      You have the right to ask questions and to offer opinions about any subject before the board.
2.     Identify concealment or evasion, and always remember that a hidden problem can lead to a much worse crisis later on.
3.     You can't do your job if covered with paper and sometimes deliberate you're covered with paper and sometimes deliberate evasion, and you may have to say, "There’s no point in sitting on this board because I'm unable to do my job."

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Most Directors serve on boards in one or two countries. The argument often is that one Most Directors serve on boards in one or two countries. The argument often is that one has to understand the legal requirements and the cultural context. Is this the only way in our connected world?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, reflects with Christof Kutscher about his experience serving on boards in 20 countries on five continents.  

Christof holds multiple key positions in the financial industry. He is Chair of the Board of Directors at Bergos Private Bank and a board member of Carmignac Gestion, Indeez, and Gnothis Holding SA.  He was CEO and Chair of Climate Asset Management. Christof has also held leadership roles at prominent firms such as UBS Global Asset Management and AXA Investment Managers.

“Well, I didn't start on five continents…”
Christof’s board career began in Switzerland and expanded across multiple continents over time.  While his experience of serving on boards in different countries and cultures has been intellectually stimulating, he emphasises that the real differences in board dynamics often stem from the type of company rather than geography.  His extensive international experience has enabled him to navigate these complexities and add value to companies around the world.

“I said, ‘No, I'm not looking for a job’”
Christof explains how his global board career started with some ex officio roles.  As a senior manager in a large global bank, his work naturally extended across many countries.  Initially, he served on country boards in Europe, but as the bank expanded, he joined boards in Asia Pacific and joint ventures around the world.  He says this was invaluable training, offering deep cultural insights and a firsthand understanding of how different countries approach board governance.  This varied exposure shaped his ability to adapt and thrive in various cultural settings.

“I typically don't steal the money, and I'm culturally adaptable”
When asked how he initiated and developed his global network, Christof emphasises that it’s all about trust and delivering more than expected.  He explains that board roles are heavily trust-driven, and having a solid reputation without any risky experiences in your background is key to gaining and maintaining that trust.  While he continues to receive invitations to join boards from headhunters, he feels that his reputation for integrity and cultural adaptability often opens the door.  

“I love the deep dive to understand the company, the industry, the strategy”
Christof applies strict criteria when evaluating board roles, often recognising whether a position will be a good fit early.  He emphasises assessing whether the role aligns with his values before committing.  Christof explains that he has never wanted to be a decoration rather than a real contributor. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation for effective directors and boards are:
1.      Avoid boards with people with egos so high that the board cannot operate. Individuals may be influential, incredibly smart, and experienced, but they must ensure their ego does not get in their way to help the company. 
2.     Make sure that the board is doing what it's supposed to do. It's about strategy, setting, compensation of senior management, risk management and liabilities, so all the regulatory stuff.  You can have the best director insurance on the planet, but you will run into trouble if you don't do that properly. 
3.     After you are on the board for six months or so, decide if you can really contribute to the board or whether to get out early rather than wasting your time but move quickly. 

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In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses tech boards with Irene Arias Hofman, CEO of IDB Lab, the innovation and venture laboratory of the Inter-American Development Bank Group. 

“We do care a lot about the principles, the values, the incentives”
Irene begins by outlining that when evaluating tech boards, especially in startups, investors focus on several key elements.  Using her organisation’s portfolio as an example (which includes startups typically at Series A or B stages), she explains that they pay close attention to the governance of both the startups and the venture capital (VC) funds they often invest alongside. They believe that the governance of portfolio companies and VC funds is crucial, although the governance of each differs significantly.  

“They need to a bring in a whole set of other aspects…. that they didn't have to worry about when they were just a two people team”
From an investor’s perspective, Irene describes how a good board in a startup balances technical expertise with broader strategic and corporate skills.  As the company grows and becomes more institutionalised, the board needs to expand its skill set to include governance, organisational management, social skills and strategic foresight.

“They have more control… or more choice than maybe they think in terms of who's on the board”
Irene then outlines how successful boards differ from struggling ones in several key ways.  First, they ensure the right fit of board members rather than simply accepting any investor who offers capital.  She notes that startups often feel they have limited control over their board composition, especially when large investors demand board seats.  However, successful startups are, in fact, deliberate about selecting board members who bring real value.  

“Only 6.2% of board seats in unicorn companies are held by women”
Board diversity is also a distinguishing factor.  Data shows that companies with women on their boards perform significantly better, yet Irene notes that women still hold only a small fraction of board seats in unicorn companies.  

“It's become trendy, and it can be good to say you are on the board of a high-growth tech startup”
A good board member in the startup context needs to be highly available and committed. Irene points out that while it has become ‘trendy’ to be on the board of a high-growth tech company, the real value comes from being genuinely invested in the company’s success. 

“You really want to know: are you gonna build a sustainable business”
When it comes to tracking a startup's progress, Irene relies on a few key KPIs that provide a solid understanding of the company’s health and sustainability - the burn rate, the lifetime value (LTV) of a customer, and the churn rate.  

The three top takeaways for effective Tech boards are:
1.      As a startup, you may be able to pick your board members more than you think, so do not feel pressure to give up board seats to investors to get investment.  It has to be a good match to build the right skill mix.
2.     That skill mix will evolve rapidly, just as the startup does. You will have to pivot your strategy. For example, if you become very successful, then very quickly, you need to become much more sophisticated in how you are run. So be ready to evolve, including evolving the composition of your board.
3.     Be mindful of bringing in board members who believe in your vision for the company and can contribute diverse views.

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Every country has its fair share of corporate failures. Afterwards, It is easy to point towards governance. Reflection and learning are essential. In this podcast, you hear from someone who has a critical governance role In Germany. You gain insights into the issues discussed and the perspectives of someone who hears daily from all players in the market - regulators, state officials, top managers, board members, the media and the general public. 

Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses current trends in German Corporate Governance with Dr. Cordula Heldt, Head of Corporate Governance and Company Law at the German Share Institute (Deutsches Aktieninstitut).  She is also Head of the Secretariat to the Commission on the German Corporate Governance Code (Regierungskommission Deutscher Corporate Governance Kodex).  

“Every declaration that you have to do is actually about nudging boards to do the work”
Cordula opens with Germany’s recent significant corporate failures, notably the Wirecard scandal, which led to new regulations concerning corporate governance.  Following the Wirecard case, German lawmakers introduced stricter requirements for risk management, internal control systems, and auditor regulations.  

“Every declaration that you have to do is actually about nudging boards to do the work”
However, despite the complaints about the administrative burden, Cordula believes the value of these declarations lies in their ability to nudge boards into taking their responsibilities seriously.  By requiring formal declarations, boards are compelled to examine their risk management and internal control systems closely – and this scrutiny is not only limited to financial reporting but extends to the entire governance framework.  The intent is to ensure that supervisory board members ask the right questions and engage more deeply with these systems.  

“As a board chair, you're looking for people that you can propose to the board and the general meeting that can fill the whole seat”
One effective approach some companies adopt, which Cordula notes, is reporting on the different levels of expertise within the board.  This means acknowledging that not every board member starts with the same level of knowledge, especially in specialised areas.  She believes this trend toward acknowledging and communicating different expertise levels supports more effective board development and governance.

“Of course, they think it's burdensome, but everybody knows the alternative is regulation”
Cordula advises bringing directors and policymakers closer together to create better boards.  She also understands that while directors generally support the code, they often find it burdensome, although they recognise that the more stringent regulation alternative could be worse.  She explains that one approach that has been effective (at least in Germany) is the practice of direct engagement, as Clara Christina Streit, the new chair of the German Code Commission, has implemented.  She started her tenure with a "listening tour." 

The three top takeaways from our conversation for effective boards are:
1.      Familiarise yourself with the ongoing governance debates, focusing on principle-based and effective governance.  This will help you better navigate and meet reporting expectations.
2.     Be aware of the potential expectation gaps in corporate reporting.  Understanding these gaps can help you align reporting practices with expectations of stakeholders and regulators.
3.     Consider the board a cohesive team that must work together to ask the right questions and prevent governance failures.  

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Recently, there has been a surge on social media stating that diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are bad for business.  Some of the world’s largest firms have also significantly reduced their investment in diversity and inclusion.  But what does this mean for boards that do believe DEI are good for business? Should they change how they approach this agenda, and if so, how? 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses whether DEI is bad for business with Prof Grace Lordan from the London School of Economics, Founding Director of The Inclusion Initiative, economist, and labour market skills expert.   

“What boards need to think about is how inclusive are their teams at the micro level, so that when they aggregate, we get those productivity gains”
Grace opens by considering an example – an imaginary scenario where DEI might negatively impact business.  Imagine starting a new job and meeting your team for the first time, being different in some way – perhaps gender, ethnicity, or language.  You have valuable knowledge and are excited to contribute, but you're repeatedly interrupted or ignored when you speak up. In this situation, you could respond in one of four ways: silence, dissent, quitting and conformity. These responses show how poor inclusion can make DEI detrimental to business.  

“The biggest thing we can do is say this board doesn't engage in consensus-based decision making”
Grace notes that boards must consider what's happening in the room and any member’s desire to “fit in.”  She attributes many big behavioural risk scandals to groupthink at the team level and board members who are aware of a potential issue but fail to speak up because they don't want to upset the apple cart. 

“These good habits, unfortunately, haven't necessarily infiltrated boards yet”
Behavioural changes are vital to advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in organisations, not only at the board level.  Grace outlines how to promote inclusive behaviours, starting with establishing clear rules for meeting hygiene.  These guidelines will ensure everyone has an opportunity to speak. 

“If you invest in an inclusive culture, you should see gains in the fundamentals. You definitely won't see losses”
Grace’s research explores the broader implications of inclusion on fundamental business metrics such as growth, innovation, patent filings, stock returns, return on equity, and return on assets.  She established a clear, positive relationship between inclusion and long-term business outcomes.  Diversity alone showed gains only after reaching critical mass. However, when inclusion is paired with diversity, the need for a high critical mass diminishes.

“Millions and millions of pounds are wasted each year on diversity equity and inclusion initiatives”
Grace notes that to realise productivity gains, board members must prioritise fostering a culture of inclusion, where diversity is genuinely valued and diverse talents are not pressured into conformity.  

The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:

1. Integrate inclusion with diversity: Ensure that diversity and inclusion strategies are embedded within the business, not confined to HR or external consultants.
2. Audit and enhance boardroom voice: Boards must pay attention to who has a voice in discussions, ensuring that there is sufficient cognitive diversity. 
3. Treat DEI as a long-term investment, particularly valuable for companies focused on growth and innovation. Prioritise creating a culture where team members feel comfortable challenging each other, driving real business gains.