The Big Impression

Intuit's Dave Raggio shares why SMB MediaLabs doesn’t own inventory, how it prioritizes privacy for its customers, and the reason consumer and CPG brands are turning to Intuit’s data. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: and I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: and welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to bring Dave Raggio to the podcast. Dave is the vice president of S& B Media Labs, a B2B media network owned by Intuit, which is of course known for business products like TurboTax, QuickBooks, Credit Karma, and MailChimp.

[00:00:22] Damian: Now Dave developed the idea of SMB Media Lab, which leans on the first party data from the millions of people who use QuickBooks, and it provides small businesses with the intelligence they need to reach their customers across channels like audio and CTV.

[00:00:38] Ilyse: We start out by asking Dave about the origins of S& D Media Labs.

[00:00:42] : It really came from honestly my personal frustration, in trying to reach SMBs for my, what I'm calling my day job. So, I was hired four years ago, at Intuit to lead QuickBooks acquisition marketing. And I actually still hold that position today. Um, my entire career has [00:01:00] been consumer brand. So I was with North Face before this.

[00:01:02] Um, spent a lot of time agency side, working on a variety of clients across CPG and e comm retail. And when I got to, into it, um, I tried to essentially apply the same data sources and tactics that worked very well for me in the, in the consumer world. And it was met very quickly with the reality that SMB data is very hard to find, and when you do find it, the accuracy is just not great.

[00:01:28] So, you know, I have a friend, um, that works in the agency that me that at the top you have enterprise level data, which is pretty high quality at the bottom. You have your consumer data, which is abundant and high quality, but between there's a big void and that's pretty much where all S and B data lives.

[00:01:49] Um, so it started off. Kind of, it's just a joke internally that I really wish there was a company like QuickBooks that I could partner with and [00:02:00] buy media through that would allow me to find not only the scale of audiences that Intuit has, but also the depth of knowledge about how those, how those businesses are operated and run.

[00:02:10] And then that joke kind of became a realization that it is a need for other advertisers that Intuit could very much fill and very uniquely fill as well. Just considering kind of. The breadth and depth of information that we have, um, on, on our small business owners. Um, so that was the start of it. Um, but of course, you know, we wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that was beneficial to our customers, um, and done in a privacy safe way.

[00:02:38] So that was kind of the start of the journey was just the realization that we had something that advertisers would be interested in, but we also wanted to make sure that it was something that benefited our customers as well.

[00:02:47] Damian: That void that you talk about in the middle between enterprise level data and consumer data is quite surprising, isn't it? That there wasn't anything there for those small businesses. I know that 99 percent of all businesses are [00:03:00] SMBs. So that's a huge, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a huge amount of, uh, data that's not being used.

[00:03:09] So was it a surprising moment when, when, when you go, when you saw that and you thought, Oh, this is an opportunity.

[00:03:15] Dave: Yeah, I, you know, there are small pockets of data where you can get very narrow in, it's just not scalable. So that was the sort of challenge. So you can go to a lot of individual professional sites. But the reality is the world of media is not built around the business that you run, it's built around you as a person.

[00:03:31] So stitching those two parameters together, because, you know, as QuickBooks growth, We're looking for specific types of business problems. And, you know, a lot of these small business owners are not active on professional networks. Um, if they have profiles there, they're not looking at them on a regular basis or updating them.

[00:03:51] Um, so they, they kind of become. In the shadows, like the S and B part of the data and the targeting capabilities and the need state from the business that they [00:04:00] run sits behind their sort of consumer profiles. So I think it was a surprise when I first joined, but. Logically, after a little while, I was like, okay, that makes sense of why we're not able to find the business traits and qualities that we are able to.

[00:04:18] Damian: Yeah, that makes sense. The

[00:04:20] Ilyse: Now, how would you go about like describing the value of these small businesses and the data that their advertisers are trying to use to reach this audience?

[00:04:31] Dave: Yeah, um, so great question. And there's, there's a couple of different layers of sort of knowledge that we have on our, on our customer base, and we're not unlocking all of those just yet. So we want to, again, going back to the want to do what's right by our customers, we want to make sure that. All the information that we're collecting is something that they would expect us to collect, that they have full control over their ability to participate in this, and that we're only partnering with advertisers that, um, you know, have the best [00:05:00] intent for, for our customers.

[00:05:02] With that, uh, we are layering on top of ad buys, data that seems to already exist in the market, but is much more accurate. So that was one of the sort of uphill battles that we've had in the early stages of this. So things like industry, age, revenue, employee count, these are things that on the surface appear to exist in other third party data sources, but You know, again, being on the other side of the buying of this one, I see how wildly off some of those data sources can be and the assumptions that they have about a small business.

[00:05:34] So what we're adding on to that is just a very, very, um, deterministic one to one knowledge and accuracy that didn't exist. So we eliminate a lot of waste that comes with using some of the other data providers or even just kind of doing broad market advertising. So that's kind of the main value prop.

[00:05:54] That said, we are working with our legal and privacy team. And our [00:06:00] executive sponsor is actually the head of privacy. So that should tell everyone a little bit about how serious we're taking this. But we're also thinking about with our customers, what value can we add to them if we continue to go into what we're calling transactional type data, if we're able to go the next step deeper.

[00:06:16] And the reason for that is every business. on the surface may look the same in an industry size employee count, but how they run their business could be very different. So if you're a construction company, that's in the same region as another construction company, roughly same revenue, roughly same employee count doesn't mean that you invest completely different in marketing.

[00:06:37] And you may be, Think about your supply chain very differently. What that allows us to do is actually find need states for our customers and be able to pair them with the advertisers that might be able to serve, um, solutions for them in those needs states. And so that's kind of the next wave that we're working on.

[00:06:52] It's something that we haven't done yet, but we're hoping to unlock for our advertisers.

[00:06:57] Ilyse: Yeah, that's definitely a good example. [00:07:00] Um, I feel like, In a, such a new kind of company like this, and I know you refer to you guys as like a retail media network, although you're not exactly a retail media, um, so it's, it's, it's definitely hard to kind of describe, I would assume, to other B2B businesses exactly what to do and how your like first party data And you essentially use QuickBooks, um, primarily, right?

[00:07:27] Um, how they can use that data to their advantage. Is there, like, another example that you can give how, um, advertiser would use your, your media network in order to, like, reach their audience? Heh

[00:07:43] Dave: you mentioned that, that, you know, we've, we've been using the term retail media network, but we're, we're very much not a retail media network. So we do not have owned and operated inventory and that's by design. Um, you don't start a business because you're passionate about bookkeeping in most cases.

[00:07:55] Um, so we're leaning into as a company, AI and, and, [00:08:00] um, automation to make sure that we're trying to reduce the amount of time that That a customer has to spend in our platforms in order to, um, to get their work done. So throwing ads in there will slow that down. It's not something that, you know, someone that's already paying for subscription would, would want to have that said, there are potentially ways that we've been looking at that. Provide additional value to that. That said by not having owned and operated, I think that we accidentally fell into what I'm calling kind of the next wave of retail media network. So we are more of an audience network that can be layered on to any part of your ad buy that's programmatic. So we have partnerships with the trade desk, with physio, with DV360, with meta, and we We are agnostic to inventory source.

[00:08:44] We just allow the advertiser, whatever their KPIs are across the board to just get more efficient and more focused on just the right people. And that's been, um, again, slightly different than what most retail media networks are going, but attending a bunch of [00:09:00] conferences, that seems to be really the hot topic of your own and operated inventory is great.

[00:09:04] It is the last. bottom, bottom, bottom of the funnel that you're able to, um, that you're able to really leverage. We are able to address full funnel campaigns with that audience targeting.

[00:09:18] Damian: That's very interesting. What kind of advertisers in this space are keen to take advantage of this opportunity to reach these millions of small businesses?

[00:09:29] Dave: Yeah, it's so that's been one of the larger surprising things when we started this up. So we built this assuming insurance, banking, credit cards, those would be the The sort of the very close in some of the software SAS providers. Um, that has been very true for us that that's where we're seeing a lot of interest, but we've had a lot of consumer brands coming to us.

[00:09:48] There seems to be a wave of interest in small business as a segment for a lot of advertisers. So we've had one of the largest CPG brands approach us. I worked at Method for [00:10:00] a while, so I know firsthand that shipping a bottle of hand soap is very expensive, and it's only a 3 bottle of hand soap, but it's mostly water and fragile, so you're upside down in your e comm costs.

[00:10:12] So the area where e comm works really well for CPG brands is concentrates in large formats, and the normal consumer do not want that. It is very profitable to go that direction. Um, so they reached out to us, same thing with one of the largest beverage companies reached out to us cause they want to be in more restaurants, more independent restaurants than the chain restaurants.

[00:10:30] So it's been a little surprising across the board of, you know, who's really approached us. Um, and, and some of these non traditional sort of B2B, as you would think about it are really the ones that have a ton of interest.

[00:10:42] Ilyse: yeah I must say. It seems like B2B is on like some kind of upward trending line right now. Um, we are seeing like a, an increase across like all channels, I feel like, maybe. Like, um, maybe that's due to like, I don't know, the rise of like [00:11:00] LinkedIn or like, um, just more businesses coming forward. And being created in general, maybe the pandemic even, I don't know, it's, it's curious because I do feel like even like channels like CTV, for instance, there's a lot more like B2B kind of marketing happening.

[00:11:16] Is

[00:11:16] Dave: Yeah. We're seeing the same thing and we're excited that we're kind of showing up at the right time for that. You know, I think our hypothesis on that is, um, very much correct. There was a small business boom during the pandemic, but a lot of advertisers I think have, have started to kind of run out of scale and saturation that they can have amongst the sort of consumer.

[00:11:36] And this is an entirely new audience with tremendous spending power that you can talk about different products that you wouldn't want to put, you know, on a Super Bowl spot. You know, the CPG brand is not going to run a large format concentrate ad in the Super Bowl, but there's now a new path and a new audience that is kind of untapped.

[00:11:54] And we're also seeing that also in the marketing space. So a lot of the major social networks and ad providers. [00:12:00] Their next target is all the S and B's because they've got so much share of wallet amongst the enterprise level brands that their, their next growth area is going to have to come from the long tail of S and B's.

[00:12:10] Um, so we're happy because we truly feel like we are the most accurate and best way to reach those S and B's. Um, so we're, we're hoping that, that, you know, everything kind of comes together.

[00:12:20] Damian: Is there a, is there some kind of nuance in terms of the channels that advertisers trying to reach businesses use versus, you know, more traditional, you might say consumer channels? I mean, they're obviously consumers. are also business owners and business owners are consumers. But is there a different sort of way that you're thinking or the advertisers are thinking about leveraging, um, the data that you're providing?

[00:12:48] Dave: We've not seen that. So kind of going back to the challenge that brought this whole thing to life is that The the line between them as a small business owner and them is just a person [00:13:00] is almost indistinguishable between the two of those. So The nice thing is because it's programmatic wherever they happen to be We're able to find them and able to serve them relevant advertising at that point I think that Um, it really the, the majority of channel selection will come down to the objective of the campaign.

[00:13:22] So we had a major global logistics company that was very focused on brand advertising and we were running them on connected TV with Vizio. We were running them on some digital video formats. We had another SaaS provider that was very focused on cost per leads. And we. Much heavier on the social and programmatic, uh, display side of things.

[00:13:41] So it's really more of what's the objective dictates kind of the channel mix itself. But, um, in terms of are there subtle nuances or specific places we go? Not really. We kind of just follow, follow the sort of, um, friends that we're seeing with the, with those small business [00:14:00] owners.

[00:14:00] Damian: Totally makes sense.

[00:14:01] Ilyse: Now, you've described SMB MediaLabs as the next wave of retail networks, which is very interesting. I like that kind of quote right there. Um, you've also said it's like a more open network than some others. Can you describe why that is?

[00:14:20] Dave: Yeah, so I would say we're not the next wave. I think that we are ahead and riding the next wave. So I don't say that we are defining it by any means, but, um, we were open in the fact that we're not relying on our own inventory. So we can go. Pretty much anywhere. Um, and if an advertiser comes to us and they have a specific DSP that they really want to work with, we can onboard those DSPs if they're not already in our network.

[00:14:44] So a big part of our, of our product is really making sure that we have the largest breadth of inventory sources and partnerships available, that we can develop campaigns in partnership with the advertiser and the agencies that actually, um, can [00:15:00] span wherever they believe that their customers are, whatever their objectives are.

[00:15:03] So that's, that's the open part. Of what we're doing. Um, and because of that also, like there's just easier capabilities for them to, to measure it because they're already using a lot of the DSPs and platforms that they're, they're using for their normal campaign. So we're not any sort of walled garden that has hidden metrics behind the scene, which I know is also, you know, a challenge for a lot of retail media networks as well.

[00:15:26] Ilyse: That's awesome. How do you, going about your own advertising for this network, how are you basically scaling it?

[00:15:34] Dave: Getting the word out and, uh, getting people to, uh, to, to try it. So we have had, um, I think we're, we're in, in month eight now, and we've had a number of large advertisers come in the data's, the data and the audience targeting is performing extremely well, that is something that, um, was a concern of mine going in that, you know, a, is there enough people that are interested in S and B's and we already [00:16:00] talked about how that, you know, You know, has been something that we've been able to check that box and say, yes, there is a ton of interest from advertisers across the board.

[00:16:07] The second one was, have I convinced myself that our audience quality is as good as it is. Um, and the data that's come in as, as shown that it's, it's performing extremely well, both on brand metrics and on cost per action. So, uh, our goal right now is to just have as many conversations and just do as many tests as possible.

[00:16:26] And let the advertiser see how well it performs comparatively to other things.

[00:16:31] Damian: I guess the next question would be how well does it perform? You know, what kind of data insights are you getting back to provide to advertisers?

[00:16:39] Dave: Yeah, so, uh, we are seeing so we've done some disco studies on brand ones, and we're seeing on average 30 to 40 percent increase in brand metrics, which is huge. That was not that's actually outside of what we anticipated and hoped for on that one. And I think probably the big one was when we've run some cost per lead campaigns for SAS [00:17:00] cloud service.

[00:17:01] We cut their CPLs by 75%. So just eliminating the inaccuracy and focusing your spin on deterministic direct connections with those advertisers or with those, with those customers as has worked extremely well.

[00:17:18] Damian: Yeah, that's a high fidelity audience. I, I, I like that phrase.

[00:17:23] Damian: I guess we have to have a question about ai, right? We have to talk about ai.

[00:17:44] Um, you know. In April, Intuit introduced an AI assistant to its core product. Products, I should say, um, in TurboTax. It's going to shorten the time to file taxes, credit karma, users [00:18:00] get personalized financial information advice, I should say, and users can generate marketing content in MailChimp. You know, how are you and SMB Media Labs using AI?

[00:18:09] Yeah,

[00:18:13] Dave: we built, we are a managed service. So we are doing the buys and executing for the time being. That is something that is very difficult to scale because for us it is kind of core to Google. Make sure that the, that the media that we're buying, not only is targeted, but it's performing.

[00:18:29] So there's a lot of optimizations that we want to be able to make recommendations on and act on. Uh, it's hard to do that. You know, our goal is to have hundreds of advertisers. You can't optimize hundreds of advertisers. So there are tools that we are bringing on board that actually use AI to understand how the various campaigns are performing, are able to serve up some sort of triggered recommendations based off of that.

[00:18:51] Um, and that allows our team to scale and really make sure that everything that we're doing is. hitting the benchmarks and exceeding the benchmarks that we want them to do [00:19:00] across all of our advertisers.

[00:22:09] Damian: One question I guess from that is, you know, the actual marketing of the SMB, uh, the actual marketing of SMB MediaLabs, how do you think about that?

[00:22:21] Dave: Uh, well, the marketing of SMB Media Labs is a lot of. Conversations like this. Um, so I'm a little bit on a podcast tour. I am, I'm going to be at Cannes. So we do have a space in the media link to a can where we're going to be having a number of meetings, speaking engagements. Um, it's, it is different enough that it does require a little bit of explanation and, you know, in full transparency, there's an added hurdle that as it stands now, we are a managed service.

[00:22:45] So, um, it is. It adds complexity to what a traditional we are not doing the model where we just park our data and anyone can go and pull it like through a marketplace. We still have to control. And that's that's because we want to have the highest bar possible for how we [00:23:00] control our data. So it just takes more conversations.

[00:23:03] But, uh, You know, we are doing some programmatic media buying and we're doing some digital out of home in the elevators of a lot of the major agencies in New York City. So we're, we're trying to really focus in on, on both the agencies and the advertisers that would be interested in something like this.

[00:23:19] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:23:24] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.

[00:23:30] Damian: And

[00:23:30] remember I'm Damian.

[00:23:32] Ilyse: I'm Elise.

[00:23:33] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:23:38] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Las Vegas Raiders’ SVP of Marketing Kristen Banks joins The Current Podcast to discuss the importance of balancing old and new fan bases alike, and not just in Las Vegas.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian

[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The

[00:00:18] Damian: but since 2020, the Raiders have

[00:00:26] That's the first time in NFL history that

[00:00:31] Illyse: In fact, the match was the most

[00:00:37] Damian: Now, although the Raiders weren't

[00:00:51] Kristen: it's incredible. Uh, you know,

[00:01:40] Illyse: And you know, also thanks to

[00:01:49] Kristen: What I would say is again,

[00:02:00] absorbing and

[00:02:20] Certainly you see that even more so with

[00:02:46] Damian: That's interesting. One of the

[00:03:06] Kristen: It's such a unique world, right?

[00:04:51] Damian: I'm very curious on the, you know,

[00:05:06] Kristen: From week to week, you know, win

[00:05:55] Damian: That's really interesting. And the

[00:06:03] Kristen: Right. I would say, there's

[00:06:52] Illyse: I feel like the NFL and sports

[00:07:17] Kristen: My background is sports and

[00:07:43] Illyse: do you think that even work with

[00:07:54] Kristen: I'll pick on maybe a little bit

[00:09:52] Damian: yeah, so the executive side of the

[00:10:09] Kristen: I think, you know, the Raiders

[00:11:02] Kristen: And to be at the forefront of

[00:11:37] Illyse: Do you believe that then has an

[00:12:04] Kristen: Yeah, I think it has to. I think

[00:13:29] Illyse: One of the most interesting facts

[00:13:45] Kristen: I think it's making sure that

[00:14:38] Illyse: And, you know, I'm curious about

[00:14:59] Kristen: You know, [00:15:00] I think,

[00:16:28] Damian: So, Kristen, you talked, you

[00:16:56] Kristen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I

[00:18:25] Illyse: Speaking of Vegas how is the

[00:18:30] Kristen: In Las Vegas, because of

[00:18:56] Naturally, I'd say, it's really working

[00:19:38] Kristen: They really represent and tap

[00:20:39] Damian: And that's it for this edition of

[00:20:51] Damian: And remember

[00:21:04] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

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NBCUniversal’s ad president talks upfronts, strategic audiences, brand storytelling, and the Paris Olympics.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Eileen Sliffering.

[00:00:02] Damian: Welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Allison Levin, who joined NBCUniversal as the President of Advertising and Partnerships earlier this year.

[00:00:15] Damian: Allison oversees all ad sales initiatives for NBCUniversal across national and local markets, as well as for the company's Peacock streaming service, which will be the streaming home 000 hours of Olympics coverage for the first time.

[00:00:30] Ilyse: It's no doubt going to be a summer of sport for the legacy broadcaster which owns the media rights to the Olympics through 2032 and for the first time the slots on Peacock are open to programmatic buyers.

[00:00:44] Damian: that's not all. Just this week, NBCUniversal returned to Radio City Music Hall in New York City for its annual Upfront presentation, celebrating the company's diverse slate of programming. We started by asking Alison about this year's [00:01:00] event.

[00:01:00] Alison: Yeah, I mean, it's, this is such a, an incredible busy time of year for all of us. And it really is such a great, like forcing function to take a step back and to have these conversations with clients, both agencies and our brand partners about. What it is that they're excited for the next 12 months.

[00:01:17] How do we want to partner together? And what does the future hold, right? there's so many conversations that are in quarter often, but this is the opportunity to really look ahead and talk about the future of our work together. and so I would say from the conversations we've been having, and we've been having, hundreds of conversations across clients and agencies, we're really hearing like.

[00:01:36] Two big themes that are coming out. And the first is about strategic audiences. So for those of us that have been in, digital for a long time, this isn't a surprise that, you know, buying off of a more precise audience, like someone who's in market for a car or household income or leveraging. A client's first party data is just a more effective way to place [00:02:00] media than, buying adults 18 to 49.

[00:02:03] Like someone had said to me once that adults 18 to 49 is a family reunion. It's not a buying And it's it stuck with me ever, since. And, We are hearing loud and clear from clients that they are really excited to move into more precise audiences, not just in streaming and across digital, but really looking at it on the linear side too, and having one buying tactic across the full portfolio.

[00:02:27] And, when you think about Consumers like at the end of the day, we're all consumers. We're all viewers and viewers have a relationship with IP, not delivery mechanism, right? And so as marketers we're hearing from marketers, they want to have that same execution strategy and they really want to find their target audience.

[00:02:46] Wherever they may be across a full portfolio in a more precise way. So I would say that's one key theme we're hearing a lot about. and of course that has great implications on programmatic. it has implications on our one [00:03:00] platform, total audience product, Opta, and how we, actually help leverage data to find our audience across our full portfolio. And then. Another really interesting conversation that's been coming up quite a bit. And we just were in a client meeting this morning where this was like front and center, but was how can we partner with our brands to tell stories within our stories? Right? Like, and if you just take a step back, like storytelling is, the fundamental part.

[00:03:30] Of our foundation. It's how we have learned as human beings, how we've grown. It's our number one form of entertainment is being entertained by stories. And I include sports in that. Like there is a beginning, middle end of sports. And so as we talk to marketers, they really want to And work together to stand out, to tell stories within our stories.

[00:03:50] Like even thinking about Jake from safe farm, that's a story, right? Like these brand, champions are storytellers too. So I'd say the combination of what we're hearing a lot in market is [00:04:00] strategic audiences. So moving to more precise audiences across linear and streaming, and then going deeper and big content moments, whether that be sports or Bravo or big live events, like Thanksgiving day parade and more.

[00:04:15] Damian: That was really interesting. So it's actually getting quite granular and clients have to pay attention to what's actually happening in the programming. I'm

[00:04:26] Alison: I mean, like that's really how these moments stand out is like taking IP together and helping infuse a brand into the IP.

[00:04:36] Damian: going to switch a little bit, but related, but obviously it's going to be a big summer for NBCUniversal with the Paris Olympics, which, you have the media rights to in the US. And I've been hearing that you've been setting up major events like the opening ceremony, with the Paris Olympics.

[00:04:51] record revenue. Maybe this is an obvious question, but why is this inventory so enticing for [00:05:00] advertisers?

[00:05:01] Alison: Yeah. I'm four months into my time at NBCU and, just the, value and interest in this asset is even Stronger than I imagined truly. And I think, when you think about it, it makes complete sense of why this is so interesting for brands and so exciting for consumers.

[00:05:18] But like, I think from a brand perspective, just even thinking about the state of mind that people are in when they're watching this, There, especially right now, in times when people are divided, like opportunities and places and content that bring people together that are really moments of joy and happiness and suspense.

[00:05:38] so the mindset that you are reaching people in, in that moment is really just, So valuable from a marketer perspective. and then I'd say the second is just reach, like how much reach the Olympics actually drives the share of attention it drives. So from a marketer perspective, like you find this audience in this really engaged mindset in [00:06:00] moments of happiness and togetherness, we're all rooting for team USA.

[00:06:04] And then it also has such incredible reach and share. Of attention during this timeframe, where everyone's talking about it, everyone's watching it. So what an opportunity from a marketer perspective to really break through. and then you add to that, like the consumer experience too. So thinking about Peacock and all we're doing on the Peacock side, on the Olympics that we're going to have thousands of hours of content.

[00:06:27] All of the different games, like never before, different consumer experiences as well. And so that, that combination is just so powerful and we're

seeing such excitement from the market to surround the games and be in the games.

[00:06:41] Damian: one of the great things about the Olympics is there's so many sports on offering it. people have so many different interests. And so you can go from surfing to track and field to soccer. So it's really an amazing opportunity.

[00:06:54] Wanted to just also touch upon Talk about the fact that for the first time you're going [00:07:00] programmatic on your streaming service in terms of selling the inventory around the Olympics. Why is that so significant?

[00:07:10] Alison: I mean, from our perspective, we believe deeply in the power of programmatic and strategic audience buying. and for brands programmatic access really democratizes access to these incredible events where Olympics is one of them, like just even taking a step back, our entire live sports inventory from the NFL to big 10 and more now programmatically Transacted and with that, the number of advertisers in 2023 actually grew 87 percent year over year and the sports revenue doubled, right?

[00:07:45] So there's just incredible momentum on the number of advertisers that have access to these huge moments. Like they're huge from a reach perspective. They're huge from an attention perspective. And now we're adding Olympics to that. And so when you think about. What is the [00:08:00] television of today? what is the opportunity for today?

[00:08:02] It's precise audiences. Bought in real time and measurable and the ability to optimize. Like now you can do that with Olympics and with all of live sports across Peacock, like it is amazing how much this really changed in the last few years. And so we're so excited to truly. Bring this opportunity to advertisers that historically have not been able to participate.

[00:08:25] Um,

[00:08:26] And we're just so excited to, to see, all the momentum and get some learnings from it as well.

[00:08:32] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, we, always write about how, like, CTV, but now especially like live sports is like democratizing TV, as you say, when it comes to live sports and perhaps especially like now Olympics, are you seeing certain advertisers more interested or is interest really like spanning across sectors at this point?

[00:08:54] Damian: point?

[00:08:55] Alison: across. Sectors because, and I think the Olympics is a really interesting example because the point [00:09:00] that you made before, there's so many different sports to, so you might be really interested in, swimming or as a brand or rock climbing, you can be specialized, but really from a, taking a step back from a sports perspective, like it drives incredible reach.

[00:09:17] And fandom, it's one of the greatest stories told, right? And there's such anticipation as you watch it and suspense. And so that's something that all brands of all different categories really have been interested in, and we've seen just an incredible momentum. And then from the consumer side, it's been tremendous, the ratings.

[00:09:38] And I think one of the, the thoughts when streaming came out and we started to put live sports on Peacock was that would cannibalize ratings on linear, but we've not seen that come to life. Like in last year's rating on sports, actually on linear grew and streaming grew. So streaming is just bringing in a whole new audience of viewers that we weren't, that we weren't accessing before.

[00:09:59] and so [00:10:00] it's such an opportunity from a consumer perspective. We're creating more ways for them to watch in different ways, but it's also creating and opening up a new door to advertisers that maybe have not been able to access the properties before.

[00:10:13] Ilyse: It definitely seems like it's just Changing overall, evolving rather, including as what's happening with this week with upfronts. Really programmatic buys can happen at any time now and that's like altering the traditional upfront marketplace in a sense. Are you seeing this, are the upfronts basically shifting to that always on marketplace?

[00:10:38] Alison: What we're seeing on our end is that there really is a finite amount of truly premium professionally produced content. and that is across the board in linear, but also in streaming. And so when you pair that with wanting to find strategic, more precise audiences, or you have a big sale coming up [00:11:00] on, weekend and you want to heavy up during that timeframe, like Locking in those audiences and reserving them is still incredibly important.

[00:11:08] And so the role of the upfront and the fact that the upfront is a futures market and you lock in the inventory ahead of time is still. very important. And we're continuing to see that this year and for next year's upfront. But I think the ways that you want to place that upfront, the ways that you want

to say, I'm going to spend this amount and I want it for this audience, but what is the actual tool that you might use to run your campaign?

[00:11:31] I think has changed. So if you want to run it as a PG deal through a DSP or PMP deal, that's certainly something that's. That brands have been interested in, and there's a lot of benefits to that too. So I think both things are happening where the upfront is still an important process, reserving inventory is still important, but the, underlying, tools you use to place that upfront, I think have been changing.

[00:11:55] Ilyse: Now, when you first announced your Olympic programmatic effort [00:12:00] a few months ago, you stated, and I thought this was very interesting, we're taking back ownership of performance. We drive performance just as well, if not better, than your Metas and your Googles. Can you go into how investing with NBCU drives this performance for marketers?

[00:12:17] Alison: Yeah, the team probably at NBCU is like, maybe you might be sick of me hearing, getting on my soapbox about this, but I just think the idea that there is, a media. Activation type called performance media drives me a little bit bonkers because it, it leads people to believe that the rest of it doesn't perform.

[00:12:34] and someone had told me the other day, and I thought this was so interesting that I want, they, they said, I think that television advertising has a Branding problem, ironically. And I'm like, I actually think it does too. when you take a step back and you think about what drives performance for advertisers, what moves products off the shelf, what gets people into a dealership, what drives people to studios, it's massive [00:13:00] reach getting as many people as possible.

[00:13:02] It's finding the right audience, leveraging first party data, connecting to third party data. It's tools that help you optimize to get smarter and smarter as you go. And then it's real time attribution. And when you take a step back, NBCU reaches 90 percent of us households in a given month.

[00:13:22] We have massive reach. We deeply know who our consumers are. We have first party data on over 90 million households. We partner with ad tech to help with real time optimization. And we're getting smarter and going deeper on real time attribution. And so I think to me, the real, the real difference here and the one that we're really excited to work through with our clients is getting faster attribution and measurement in their hands so that they can understand performance and don't have to rely on MMM models that can take nine months to a year.

[00:13:54] And it's not actually that the performance is any less than these other players. [00:14:00] It's the perception of the research and the attribution studies that they don't have as quickly as possible. Like we were just in this. Client meeting and she was telling us like all of these social platforms are all claiming incrementality on all this and yet They're not even selling as much as in aggregate They're all saying they're getting credit for right like there needs to be a reassessment of what does attribution?

[00:14:23] actually mean how do you look at it holistically? And I think there's, leveraging NBCU's portfolio and understanding the power of the platform as quickly as possible is goal number one for us this year.

[00:14:36] Now I know you think about the user experience a lot, on Peacock, on really all of your platforms. What about the ad experience?

[00:14:48] Damian: TV

[00:14:48] Ilyse: to me is, it seems to be just getting more and more personalized. Why do you think this is important to viewers? Peace.

[00:14:56] Alison: Yeah, I personalization makes a better, experience for [00:15:00] consumers and it makes a better experience for brands, right? It drives performance for brands. And, I do think this is such an important element. If you think about the calculation of performance and what drives performance for an advertiser, how a consumer sees that ad, what is their mindset at, and what is the experience around seeing that ad is so So critical and I think sometimes underappreciated, for peacock, we take this so seriously.

[00:15:27] Our ad load is the lowest, one of the lowest, if not the lowest of all the premium AVADS. When you are a buyer, you own the pod from a category perspective. So if you are a financial service brand, you own that pod and there's no one else that's near you for the minutes before you Between those breaks, like that is so powerful from a brand perspective and it drives results with the consumers they're trying to reach.

[00:15:53] our pause ads that we run are beautiful and done creatively and it drives incredible impact for brands [00:16:00] too. And when you add that combination of, innovative ad units, a great consumer experience, we just see time and time again that it drives results. And we hear everyone's, people tell us all the time, like they are users of.

[00:16:12] Peacock, but also other streaming channels and they feel the difference like, and if you feel it as a consumer, it also means that when an

advertiser shows up, you are feeling a different way about them and their products in that moment. So we just take that so seriously. And the fact matters, Peacock was built for advertisers first.

[00:16:31] We didn't retrofit as in after the fact. And so it really allowed us to be really thoughtful about building both of these at the same exact time versus figuring one out and then trying to get the other one shoved in there after the fact.

[00:16:44] Damian: I read that local markets have a really significant influence on audiences and that national brands can connect with audiences more effectively when they speak with a local voice. And I know that your remit is across national and local. as you oversee that, what's your observation, on that [00:17:00] point?

[00:17:01] Alison: Yeah. we've been. I'd say it's really been exciting. working across the national and local teams and there's been so much momentum on the local business, around digital and our ad property called spot on. It's our offering that we have. That's basically allows you to find your audience across Peacock and other digital endpoints, in specific geos and DMAs.

[00:17:25] and I think a great example of where we're going with this is the launch of spot on auto. So that product in particular actually syncs up with constellation, as a key partner there with tier three auto and let's see tier three auto in a seamless way, activate across our peacock inventory. And as you know, like there's.

[00:17:46] Tremendous opportunity in that category, tremendous, growth from a digital standpoint. And so new tech products and innovations like that to go capture the tier three auto market, but also other local markets [00:18:00] has been really exciting for us. An area of opportunity. And then to your point, when you marry that with what is the, national, business doing right.

[00:18:08] So the tier one and what is the impact of running tier one plus tier two auto plus tier three auto on driving people to a dealership. So we're really excited about the early findings we're seeing from spot on auto and a lot more to come there.

[00:18:22] Damian: Goes back to driving performance. Thanks.

[00:18:24] Alison: Exactly.

[00:18:27] Ilyse: now one final question for you. As obviously we're going into this huge summer for NBCU with Olympics programmatic on Peacock. Looking into your crystal ball, what do you imagine for the future ahead of that? How can NBCU even top that?

[00:18:43] Damian: didn't

[00:18:44] Alison: excited for this summer and I'm so excited for Paris quite personally. Um, but I think one of the things I think that's underappreciated about NBCU, we talked about this a bit at 124, that we've been leading in television [00:19:00] and video innovation. For decades, right? The first NFL game ever aired on NBC was a hundred years ago.

[00:19:07] The first viral clip ever on YouTube was SNL. The largest streaming day ever was on Peacock. And, I'm excited for us to take back that narrative a little bit in the market. We've been quietly leading an innovation for decades where you continue to do so. And we do it because brands have always been in our partners.

[00:19:27] Number one for us, they're,what we think about when we wake up and we go to bed at night, like making their campaign successful. And we've been innovating to do that. And we are continuing to do that. So I just say like, just thinking about everything we've been doing on Peacock over the last, 12 months.

[00:19:45] everything that we were doing on attribution and measurement, all of our work on strategic audiences and Opta, just imagine what we'll do in the next 12 months. Like we're just hitting our stride right now and there's just so much runway ahead for us. And, we've got [00:20:00] great partners that have been here testing and innovating and building alongside of us.

[00:20:05] Ilyse:

OUTRO

[00:20:05] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:11] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:17] Damian: And

[00:20:17] remember I'm Damian.

[00:20:19] Ilyse: I'm Elise.

[00:20:20] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:20:25] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

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Hearst Newspaper's Vice President of Programmatic, Mike Irenski, joins The Current Podcast to explore the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00]

Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. And

Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Michael Eirenski, the Vice President of Programmatic Revenue at Hearst Newspapers.

Damian: Now Hearst has a legacy that goes all the way back to 1887 when William Randolph Hearst acquired the San Francisco Daily Examiner and founded the Hearst Corporation.

Ilyse: Only 137 years later, the legacy of the brand continues as the publisher of 24 dailies and 52 weeklies, including papers such as the Houston Chronicle and the San Francisco Chronicle.

Damian: Hearst Newspapers has a unique insight into journalism in the U. S. at a local and a national level, even as publishers are under pressure to find fresh ways to fund their newsrooms.

Ilyse: We talk with Mike about the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it.

Mike: Yeah, so Hearst newspapers has grown a lot. it's funny. I, most people don't know this, is actually 137 year old brand. We've been around, during the same amount of time as some of our friends, down the block or a couple but I think what's really differentiated us is, That, over the [00:02:00] years, we have thousands of employees.

We have, award winning content. And, really unique our strong local presence. When people think of. being stale, and I think it's a little bit different here at Hearst Newspapers, is that we've always constantly been evolving.

 And we take pride in our core product. But I think what is particularly unique is that we have been actively engaging in our local communities over the past dozens of years. And, have really listened to our audiences. So some of the things that, come to light for us is that we are continuing to lean into And we've been [00:03:00] recently as of this year, expanding into, puzzles and gaming. We have, a big comics presence and own, several, large IPs, from Popeye to Betty Boop. And we've also been rethinking about the types of, long form content that we So it's been an evolution over time, but I think what we've really just, continued to lean into is, local community aspect. And we've seen the returns as a result.

Ilyse: I had no idea that Hearst is in the IP game so much as it is.

Mike: Oh my gosh. I, it's very funny when I first started here, the other side of the floor has a Popeye paraphernalia throughout the office. And I just thought people are really into Popeye. I didn't know that it was anything that we, But it is, one of many, which is fascinating. There's a large video game called Cuphead, which has a Netflix show that is actually something that we also own the IP for.

 So it's fascinating and [00:04:00] a growing part of our business.

Ilyse: Ah, so interesting. Now, with so many, local publications, how does that affect Hearst Newspapers, approach to something like audience segmentation?

Mike: Oh, my gosh. It's very funny because each market is completely different. Albany readers that relevant, accurate information that is happening, regardless of where they are.

But something we like to say internally is, the national stories are conversations that are being had with everyone, but the local stories are conversations with your friends or your neighbor or your family. And as a result, I think that gives us some level of differentiation. I also joke around that we cover high school sports as if it's the NBA [00:05:00] finals.

And while we might not say focus on the Royals, this came up recently, where I was curious in our newsrooms, are we talking about the Royals? Are we providing any content? And the newsrooms have been if the local community isn't really asking for it, that it really isn't, we'll cover it, but it's not just something that we lean into.

And I think what I'm very proud of is we stay close to the zeitgeist, but we never follow the zeitgeist. We are really leaning into what our local communities want. And with those boots on the ground doing it, we have just amazing, journalists and, video content creators who are talking to the people.

comes out in 

Ilyse: It's very much community first,

Reader driven. Which I'm sure helps when it comes to advertising as well.

Mike: Not only our readers react to our content, but also how they react to the adjacent advertising associated to it. And, with [00:06:00] that is something that we're constantly up leveling at the national level and talking to the big brands and agencies on, but just seeing that performance at the local level is a microcosm of the things we could do, but it's very inspiring when you're able to drive business to a small entrepreneur or local business.

Damian: Mike, I feel really inspired by, local newspapers. I grew up in Britain and I remember getting the Yorkshire Evening Press. It used to be an evening paper and just that's how I got interested in journalism, just looking at all that.

People are interested in what's happening, in their backyard.

And at the same time, of course, you get the national stories and international stories in there too. As well as the TV listings that I was interested in. Anyway, I digress. But, that value of local journalism has been, of late, it's been under threat. It's been challenged. And local papers, we've, reported on have basically been, closing newsrooms and the like, across the United States and indeed other countries.

But, how do you [00:07:00] think about that, in, in a world where people want local journalism, and how advertisers need those local audiences to advertise too? What's the inherent sort of like challenge and how do you think about that?

Mike: Yes, I think about it often. I also think about, coming here is, it's very hard. I don't need to talk myself up or what we do here. but it's a very hard conversation that's being had, our industry touched upon it perfectly. There's a lot of threat and what we've, I think one of the things that makes us unique is that we do, across all of our properties and just Hearst brands, we have the reach.

 The reach play is not the challenge for us, but it's the ongoing, challenge that we have with advertisers who are looking not to run on it's very funny because people see the value of news, but then you'll talk to an advertiser and I've had advertisers say this to my face that, Hey, we don't run a news.

I'm [00:08:00] sorry. We would love to run, but we can't. And, something as a case in point is, the recent eclipse, that, passed over the United We saw from our Eclipse content, when you think of the eclipse, the first thing I did was I went to my, local sites to see where, what time does it start here in New York?

Where can I be? Where can I watch it? You can't get that everywhere. And those are the experiences that we are constantly trying to bring to advertisers is that there's a perception with news that it is not brand safe, that you do not want the right, alignment with the news.

breaking news content. But the large majority of our content is informative to come, spend with us, we're also trying to challenge them [00:09:00] to think a little bit differently.

because 

I think if we can get past that, I think we're actually going to be funding. The open internet, but also, quality journalism the industry will get there.

Damian: That's interesting. Do you think that advertisers minds are being changed a little bit, or is it that there are new tools to offer more nuance in terms of what they can advertise against?

Mike: addressability for them and their campaigns, but how do we get smarter about our contextual, And I think what [00:10:00] we're trying to do in partnership with our advertisers is show them that, an article about, again, our high school sports team shooting that basket that won the game is very different from, a gun shooting or some type of gun violence.

So those are the parts that we're hoping we can get advertisers to lean into and build with us. But until some of the technology is there, it's gonna be really a very manual, open dialogue that we're having with them. But I think it's changing. I think especially with the cookie deprecating, it, this is my personal feeling is that it's gonna really spring back to the content, to the quality, and to the objectiveness of that content, that's gonna bring advertisers back to us.

Damian: There's one more question. You mentioned at the top, the importance of content variety, and you mentioned long form. Journalism and that's another form that's been disappearing un unless it's in national magazines, why is that important and why is a variety of [00:11:00] content an important factor for, a newspaper, publisher, when it comes to finding advertisers to embrace that content and be next to it.

Mike: Yeah, it's a great question. What we've seen is the long form content, especially as it relates to the weekends, people really are looking to understand what's happening at the local level, but they're looking for just, I think more than just the two or three paragraphs, about, what's happening there.

[00:12:00] They're 

Spectrum of what is happening at home.

And I think that's what's really important for us, is to just show, you can cover the breaking news all day, you can maybe get the hits from, search, and maybe everyone's curious about that advertisers might not want to run against, but the majority of what people are coming to read us on is, what happened yesterday and what should I be doing this weekend?

And I think those are things that we can answer for them.

Damian: Yeah.

Ilyse: Totally, and outside of specific content, [00:13:00] There's been, like, a number of major publications, including the New York Times, that have leaned into the subscription model, especially as, they realize, cookies will be going away, we need to make sure our revenue model is still intact, we need people reading the news, should this be free, it's, we are providing a service, there's a whole list of reasons why, 

a subscription model has been implemented, and part of that is enlarging, also your footprint through podcasts and other apps, but as we've all seen, not everybody has that kind of scale to do that. What role should advertising play then versus that subscription model?

Mike: Yes. Great question. I am a proponent of advertising helps fund the open internet. I will always champion that. And I also say that we have a phenomenal, customer engagement and consumer marketing team that is driving [00:14:00] an amazing subscription business. But I, Looking at the evolution of subscriptions, I think, especially in a market, economic market, that there's a lot of choice now, and especially with things like streaming.

 I think there's a lot more penny pinching, that is happening. In a past life, I've, really analyzed are people willing to have multiple newspaper subscriptions or are they really just leaning into one and Just have that brand loyalty and something that we've been really taking a hard look at is one, who's subscribing to our Publications but where are they and I think something that we've been taking that look at is it in DMA?

Is it out of DMA? So we're catering to that subscription audience. But at the same time, we know there are going to be people that aren't going to subscribe. Maybe they don't have the budget to subscribe and we still want to provide them that same level of quality content and news and informative news.

So we've [00:15:00] been a little bit different in that we have two types of, publication formats. We have a free model and a paid model are paid is exactly what it sounds like. It has a lot more of that long form, behind a paywall, investigative journalism, some of that content. 

 but there's a different type of content that we're sharing that is allowing, people to still stay informed and still, Be engaged in their local community.

And what we're hoping is that it will have this flywheel effect where when people see the type of content that we're putting out there, 

 And that's how we've been thinking about it, and we have a lot of investment on our free model.

Ilyse: that note, you mentioned this before that you guys have implemented like more games, and you're not the only ones, looking to gain or find more ways to really gain more first party data, especially as like cookies deprecate. Are there any other [00:16:00] strategies that Hearst is using?

I guess looking into to create and build that free content model.

Mike: We have a robust first party data set. It's very important to us. I just want to plug that everything the extreme, quality of being privacy compliant and really lean in. We take, we really value the first party data that we have. But with that being To your point, we've been really thinking of different types of experiences that we can unlock for our users.

, as we mentioned, we have a new site called Puzzmo that if anyone ever wants to play Spell Tower, I highly recommend it. It's an extremely fun game. But what's really great about the Puzzmo site is there's an interactive community aspect to it where you can play games. With your friends, you can time yourself.

There's a bit more of a [00:17:00] social activation to it. That we've been really having a lot of fun with and we're seeing the returns back on the well.  

And we have, other partnerships that are currently in the works as well that are gonna help, bring different forms of content, like that to, better just help people, understand what they're doing with their time, , with probably a little bit of free time that they have. We just want to help them relax a little bit more.

Damian: like that, yeah. I know what you mean, though, about still feeling cooped up. Somehow that pandemic mentality didn't fully go away. I don't know. 

Mike: It's very true. It's very true. And it's, that's been the fun part. really trying to figure out, I, again, I got, I recently got into hiking because of our content. But just knowing that I can find something to do this weekend, and share it with, friends and family. And Google and there's just a choice.

 We [00:18:00] help narrow it down for you.

Damian: Yeah. Speaking of Google, here's a little segue. We've already mentioned cookie deprecation several times in this conversation.

I just wanted to zero in on how you think about that identity conundrum that publishers are facing right now. What are the sort of solves for it that you're thinking about?

Mike: Yes. So we've been very leaned into, the identity, I'll call it ecosystem and identity resolution. We are. pretty lucky with that first party data that we do have. Being 137 year old brand and loyal readers we've been collecting this for quite some time. I think we've also been ready for the cookie to deprecate for quite some time.

It's been a challenge when things keep getting pushed back, but what we've

Ilyse: ready. Sorry. Sorry.

Mike: but what really leaning into is

Making sure that, we understand how do we still provide [00:19:00] relevant advertising in a cookie less world. And as a result, we've been leaning into the deterministic side of the house.

We have, millions of email email addresses and that we, that people have consented to give us. We're being very smart about it. We are creating opportunities. It's very funny. I think back on newsletters when I first got into this industry, and it was just static creatives that you see when you news.

And, but we've been really thinking outside the box of how do we, Utilize these premium more. How do we lean into a newsletter strategy that isn't just, Hey, this is what happened, then I would go into, I would share that we're working really hard on the contextual end as well.

 because you guys are so local, I think you would be a great source to talk about DMAs. Where would you [00:20:00] say is your largest markets and how do you then incentivize readers?

Yes I think about DMAs all the time. I will say that we, while we have, we provide that national reach, I would say our largest DMAs are typically Houston San Francisco and and, Albany, New York. Many, I would say all of Connecticut, just the entire state of Connecticut.

We, we have a slam dunk in coverage. But I think what's really interesting, I'll use San Francisco Chronicle as a great example of. And I didn't know this until I really started here, which is people who are reading the San Francisco Chronicle, they're obviously reading it in San Francisco, but a lot of people travel to LA or work in Palo Alto or are traveling all throughout California and are actively reading the Chronicle.

And then I have a bunch of friends who've told me this, who are Ex San Franciscans who now live in New York, [00:21:00] who are San Francisco Chronicle subscribers. And what we've been really trying to track is understanding people who have brain loyalty, who want to know what's happening in their community but maybe aren't there anymore.

So we've market coverage. And in New York but we want to be there letting them know everything that's happening.

So it's been a very fun project of mine, [00:22:00] which is just slicing and dicing the different parts of America to see where are our second, third, large, fourth largest DMAs as it relates to our core key markets. And how do we come up with a different strategy? I think going back to even the whole free, paid, what are we doing with cookies?

Of it all is we've actively are looking into the DMA aspect as well to see, maybe paying for a subscription for the San Francisco Chronicle is tough when you're in New York and you're living a busy life. In which case, maybe we do something a little bit different for them. Maybe we provide them different incentives to come back to us.

So that's been a something I've been working on actively on the back end, which has been a lot of fun.

you see a big surge during an election year?

Coincidentally this year has been, normally we do, this year's been a little different. I don't know if it's here in America, at least at a national level, People either have, [00:23:00] already. into the back half of the 

Damian: That makes sense. Given the fact that there wasn't so much hoopla around primary season, there was no real need for a primary this year, right? On either side.

Mike: Exactly. It's, and it's very interesting too, because I think it's thrown some of the political agencies and trading desk for a loop a little bit. there are certain people that we can rely on and we actively are talking to, and even they're like, Hey, I got the money, [00:24:00] but We're doing it laterand uh, you when it comes to budgeting, we budgeted that it would be a little bit more of a stronger year, but I, I think we're hoping that over time, people are gonna pick it back up.

Ilyse: Yeah not to resort back to the doom and gloom, but, and bring up a certain Company again. But, so Google recently threatened to remove links and pause investments for California publishers in response to the pending California Journalism Preservation Act, also known as CJPA, due to them having to basically pay a fee to link Californians to news articles. Is this concerning to Hearst at having, of course, properties in California, and if so, why?

Mike: I'll say local news is always under pressure. Just over, even ongoing State law as it relates to privacy. I think these are just things that are going to [00:25:00] continue to happen and you know we have to remain steadfast in our position of what we do and forming people and communities as business as usual, but it's something that we are very close to and we are continue to work with a lot of our people Largest partners and the walled gardens to ensure that,

But it's something that we just, we, again, it's an, it's another day and another challenge. And I firmly believe we're going to get through it.

Ilyse: So Mike, how would you say news blockers are basically an impediment to advertisers? 

Mike: it does. And I would say it's really from these fourth parties. I think it's the way we're getting tagged, even at a keyword level, lot of our advertisers. Are running if they're not running against an allowless block list on the domain level, which we've had to unblock, we've had people spend with us and want to do a buy with us, and then we later find [00:26:00] out that they, we were on a block list for news.

But I think the difficult part as it relates to is someone will not want to run against any type of Donald Trump content or Trump. And. That will get tagged as not brand safe as relates to their advertising buy. But in actuality, the content itself is not brand safe. It's just, I think the, like we, if we said, Hey Trump is the new Republican candidate who needs to is for the candidate that.

Content is deemed not brand safe and we remove that we don't think advertiser would run on, but the challenge has been how an [00:27:00] article about Trump being the new candidate versus advertisers, both of those are equal, and we just need to figure out a better way to inform them of those types of things. I always, I again, I'll use shot block list, and we will talk about basketball shots and people shooting three pointers to win games.

And that content will be tagged unbrand safe when it's probably the most brand safe community based content that you're going to get. So those are the challenges that we're actively engaging with people on. It's just informing them more about the contextual relevancy and [00:28:00] less on individual keywords and isolation.

Ilyse: Awesome.

Now, outside of your localized newspapers, how does Hearst newspapers overall market yourselves? Is there a national story you're trying to tell?

Mike: Yes, there definitely is. so across newspapers I also will plug, I run a team called Hearst Mosaic we and sell across both newspapers and TV. We have about 86 million uniques monthly. We have a really large audience. 

We can give you national reach, we can give you local reach, but at the end of the day we can give you performance and we have an engaged audience who wants to hear from you.

Ilyse: need to. 

Damian:

and that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back [00:01:00] next week, so stay tuned.

Ilyse: The current podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.

Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

Ilyse: I'm Ilyse,

Damian: And we'll see you next time. Please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report, a weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

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Ford’s chief futurist joins The Current Podcast to discuss how preparing for the future is imperative for marketing.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. 

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. 

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to Season 9 of The Current Podcast. 

[00:00:05] Ilyse: And we're kicking off this new season with Jennifer Brace, Chief Futurist at Ford. 

[00:00:11] Damian: Now, Jennifer has deep roots at Ford. Not only did her father work for the company, but she started working there 20 years ago, first as an engineer. 

[00:00:20] Ilyse: Now her days are filled with keeping an eye on all things that could impact Ford's business in the future. Everything from AI to the latest consumer trends. Her team is often keeping track of four different futures at once. 

[00:00:34] We started by asking Jennifer about her title, Chief Futurist. [00:00:39] Jennifer: I'll be honest with you and tell you that, uh, Apparently my future in skills were not intact when I started working for Ford because I would have never expected to be in such a role. That being said, what I do as the chief futurist is I spend a lot of time paying attention to trends and signals, paying attention to 

[00:01:00] the categories that we refer to as steep, meaning social, technological, economic, environmental, and political. Um, you'll notice I did not mention automotive. That is also by design. And what I like to think of my job is paying attention to all the things that are happening outside of automotive that might come back and impact our business or the environment that we have to operate within. 

[00:01:24] So, I actually never say that I predict the future, I say instead I help teams prepare for the future. So, Uh, you know, contrary to the, the title of futurist, um, I can't actually see the future. I wish I could. I was disappointed when I found out like the job did not come with a crystal ball that worked or anything like that. 

[00:01:43] Ilyse: You say that, that does not include automotive. By design, you say. Why is that? 

[00:01:50] Jennifer: Well, the truth is there's a ton of experts in the automotive space within this company, and I'm happy to lean on them for their expertise and understanding whether it be, 

[00:02:00] um, the future of, you know, engine propulsion systems or battery technology and things like that. I let them kind of own that space. 

[00:02:07] And when I want to know more about it, I can talk to them about what they're seeing and how they, they continue to see it evolve. 

[00:02:13] So a lot of what I do, I like to say that, um, part of our job is to connect the dots so by connect the dots, I mean, if we're seeing something happening, maybe in, education, if we're seeing something happening in mental health. What my job would be to do in my team is we're going to take some time and we're going to say, okay, if we're seeing this happen over here, can we connect the dots to get it to a point where it might come back and impact our business and come back and impact our products or services, um, the environment that we're operating within. 

[00:02:42] So a lot of the times we're starting at the very high level. Then we talk about how it could impact the market. And then we get to how it could impact Ford or a specific product, depending on, um, what work we're doing at the time. 

[00:02:53] Damian: One of the questions just based on what you just said, you know, you're sort of looking at current trends. But then how do you kind of extrapolate 

[00:03:00] from those current trends? A kind of future scenario. And what's the kind of chronology of that? 

[00:03:05] I mean, what's the time shift? Are you looking out a year, two years? 

[00:03:10] Jennifer: So the answer is yes. In terms of timeframes, we do look at an array of timeframes. I would think of the one year timeframe is a much clearer. Then say the five or 10 year time frame. So of course, the farther out you go, the more kind of opportunity that the trend could shift or change. 

[00:03:28] So when we're looking at trends, often what we're doing is number one, we're we have to take data that we see today. Um, but we'll also we'll go back and we'll try to understand whether the trend has momentum. We'll look for other signals to help us Start to quantify that trend for example, if you're understanding where venture capital dollars are being spent or even how many times a term is brought up in, uh, earnings calls, something like that. 

[00:03:53] So when we're thinking of trends, we're all, my team, we're always trying to add some of that, um, that data element to make sure that we're 

[00:04:00] proving to ourselves that we're taking it through some checks and, and gateways to ensure that we do believe it's a trend that has some staying power. 

[00:04:08] And then the other side of that, when we're thinking about how the future might be different, I think of the trends as the things that we feel confident in. We, things are things that we quote unquote know, or we expect to continue moving forward, but the other half of that are, are the things that we don't know, and that's what we would call uncertainties, um, and those uncertainties. 

[00:04:28] are duly named because they could go in any direction and we don't pretend to know what direction those might go in. We look at both trends and uncertainties, uh, to consider how different futures might play out. 

[00:04:42] Damian: That's fascinating. And how, given all those different scenarios, do you determine which of the scenarios are the kind of headline scenarios? I mean, I know that you talk about different futures. Do you winnow it down to a specific number of futures? 

[00:04:58] Jennifer: Yeah. So usually what 

[00:05:00] we, the way we tend to do it, if we like doing for future matrix, if you will, if you take two critical uncertainties, uh, typically we would pick dependent on the problem. We will pick whatever uncertainties we feel are the most impactful. 

[00:05:13] So, with the state of EVs, for example, we might look at the regulatory landscape might be one of those where it could become, you know, more stringent or less for that matter. And then we might take another access something say like, um, maybe social acceptance. Of EVs. How's the public feeling about it? 

[00:05:33] It's kind of a mix of art and science, if you will. 

[00:05:35] Damian: Do you find that, um, you're ever surprised by something that's gone away? 

[00:05:42] Jennifer: Yeah. You know, it is a constant. Kind of moving beast, if you will, in terms of where we see momentum and energy. It's rare, to be honest with you, for us to consider something, a trend, we take it through several gateways. So it's rare that it goes away completely. 

[00:06:00] If it's something that we've considered a trend. 

[00:06:03] Um, I'm I'm calling it out that way because the way that my team works, we're very Um, scientific with what we consider to be a trend, something that has gone through a lot of gateways for us to believe that it's got lasting power versus something that would be a signal. Now a signal, we don't know what way it's going to go. We don't know if it's got lasting power yet. So it's the type of thing that we would start tracking because it's a signal and we'd want to be paying attention to it. 

[00:06:28] But, um, the signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends. 

[00:06:33] Ilyse: That's really interesting. I mean, especially when the culmination of all those trends become like four different futures, which is a lot, a lot of futures. [00:06:42] Jennifer: It's a lot to think about, isn't 

[00:06:44] Ilyse: a lot to look at at once.

 [00:06:45] Jennifer: feedback sometimes from teams that they're like, but can't we just pick one?  

[00:06:51] do we have to think about four? 

[00:06:54] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, and when you say, um, you guys don't predict but you prepare,

[00:07:00] can you explain the difference a little bit 

[00:07:02] Jennifer: So when it comes to predicting, um, that is saying that we can see the future and this is what it looks like. And the truth is nobody, nobody really has that power. 

[00:07:13] And that's why we say that we help people prepare because the truth is, if you've made a prediction. And you're wrong. And one of these uncertainties comes up and changes the game. You've put all your eggs in one basket and you're in trouble. I like to say that COVID made our job a lot easier and trying to convince people that betting on a single future could be dangerous, so that is when we're asking teams to be prepared for the future by considering more than one. Uh, more than one scenario. 

[00:07:45] What we're asking you to do is to kind of recognize where your blind spots might be in your current strategy and how you might pivot if you need to. So it can be used in, you know, in product and, um, in different parts of the business and, and of course, um, also in marketing, 

[00:08:00] uh, a lot of what we're doing when it comes to the marketing side is trying to understand. 

[00:08:05] sentiment. So where are people? How are they feeling? What are their needs? How are their, um, how are their needs or sentiments shifting? We'll do things like trying to understand how people feel about Technology like AI is a great, um, a great example that, uh, that we've been talking about quite a bit in the last year or so, uh, and how people are feeling about it and, and understanding where people are at and how we might see that evolving helps us. 

[00:08:34] Within marketing to understand, um, how consumers might be willing to accept a technology, how they expect it to work into their lives or what they expect out of the brands and the companies that are using a technology, how they expect to hear about it, understand its use, all of those things. So it's understanding where. 

[00:08:50] where consumers are at, and then starting to think about how, how that might look different moving forward, or maybe how different generations are approaching 

[00:09:00] it. All of that becomes useful information from a, from a marketing side as we're trying to communicate and connect with our consumers, and, and of course, trying to develop new products and services to meet their needs. 

[00:09:10] Ilyse: Now, you mentioned COVID and the impact that had, um, and who could have predicted that one? I don't know, maybe you guys did, maybe you knew it was coming up 

[00:09:19] Jennifer: will say there were lots of warnings. World Health Organization, CDC were certainly warning everybody that pandemics were On the way with how connected we were as a society and, and how, um, how we had seen some signals that the truth is that we saw signals before that there was Mark, uh, MERS, there was SARS, Ebola. 

[00:09:38] Um, so there were some signals, but most, most would agree that we didn't necessarily take them seriously enough to be prepared. COVID jolted us so much because it was this thing that we all, even though we had, I don't know, maybe just my team, but I think a lot of people would have said, oh, right. I remember that. Oh, I remember that there were some other, um, epidemic type things that 

[00:10:00] were, that were talked about, but it didn't hit me directly. [00:10:02] So I didn't think about it. Um, But if you really go back, the signals, the signals were there, But I'm not making any predictions on what the next big kind of black swan event will be. 

[00:10:13] Ilyse: Are there any other, would you say, micro or macro perhaps trends that brands should be paying attention to? 

[00:10:22] Jennifer: There's a lot of things that are happening that, um, that we all need to be paying attention to. AI, we can't, we can't stop talking about it. Right. It's bringing up a lot of questions, I should say, um, in terms of the way that we operate, the way that we work, the way that we interact and engage with our services, our everything that's around us, 

[00:10:41] um, the other thing that is very highly connected to that would be trust and how are people. building trust? How are they gaining trust? Do they believe the information that they get? Where is the trusted source of information? what we are certainly seeing from a, um, a high level is that people trust 

[00:11:00] those around them. 

[00:11:01] You know, they, they build a trusted circle of friends and family. That's the number one. Number one trusted element in their life is their friends and family and, uh, we continue to see, you know, trusted institutions going down. We are seeing some increases in trust in businesses, but even that has some, some ebbs and flows, big business versus small business or tech company versus, um, versus something else. 

[00:11:24] I think there's a lot, a lot to be said about how people are feeling in general when it comes to mental health and wellness that continues to be a huge, huge topic. And we do see differences in generations. So we see our younger generations being more likely to say that they have mental health as a stressor, they have more anxiety, they feel lonely more often than our older generations. 

[00:11:47] Um, the other thing I would say, um, talking about our older generations is understanding how, how they're living. Our boomers are in retirement, but are they really retiring? They're staying super active. They are, they are kind of 

[00:12:00] redefining, um, their, uh, their golden years, if you will. 

[00:12:03] Damian: That's really interesting. As a Gen Xer, I feel like, you know, I used to be, uh, the youthful generation, but that suddenly caught up with me, which brings me to my point, which is like, The future is now in lots of ways, and what I mean by that is, are there predictions that you have talked about from five years ago that are now being realized, as it were, in real time, so you can say, chalk that one up to success? 

[00:12:26] Jennifer: Um, I would say a few years ago, we were talking quite a bit about, um, divisiveness growing in our country and how that might, how that might come into play. But lots of different things with respect to technology and how we see the technologies in our lives starting to, to grow in play apart. I smile a little bit when I say that because I feel like a lot of the conversations I'm in this year, people are talking about AI, like it's brand new thing that we've never heard of before. 

[00:12:55] And we're suddenly inundated with it. Um, but we've been talking about it for a long time 

[00:13:00] and even back in 2019 when we asked people about AI, like they were reporting that they didn't understand it or that they were afraid of it and what it could be and what it could do. And we expected that it would continue having a large role in people's lives. And we have certainly seen that, um, grow and more recently kind of, rocket and take off, if you will, as generative AI has taken hold. [00:13:26] Ilyse: So yeah, it seems like you guys knew all along. 

[00:13:29] Damian: Ha ha, yeah. 

[00:13:31] Jennifer: I would love, I would love to claim that, but, um, but, 

[00:13:34] Damian: be modest. Don't 

[00:13:35] Ilyse: Don't be, yeah, don't be 

[00:13:36] Damian: modest. You know, we talk about AI, but you know, if you had to sort of pick some other hot topics, as it were, that Ford is, not necessarily hot, maybe they're not hot yet, but maybe they will get hot. But if you had to pick some that Ford is looking at when analyzing these possible futures, are there any? 

[00:13:52] In your, you know, on your dashboard, if I can use an automotive metaphor that, you know, you're, uh, really focused on. 

[00:13:59] Jennifer: 

[00:14:00] I would say topics that we continue to explore, right. 

[00:14:03] When it comes to, uh, several years ago, autonomous driving was, um, was kind of. A big, big topic that we talked about a lot. And we've seen that evolve a bit, right? So where we're focused more on assisted assistance features, um, continuing to, to help make the drive easier for a driver, um, without, necessarily being able to, to do this full autonomous, uh, Future where we're taking them from, you know, the door of their house to the door of their work without them having to lift a finger. 

[00:14:33] Um, so we're not there yet. Uh, when it comes to technology. So, so the supportive technologies there, we continue to investigate and we continue to look for ways to make it easier for consumers. So, so leaning into that.

 [00:14:47] Ilyse: Do you feel, though, that technology overall has kind of caught up with the forward thinking nature of your job? 

[00:14:54] Jennifer: I mean, absolutely. The good and bad, right, is about technology is that it continues to evolve and it feels like 

[00:15:00] it's moving faster every day, 

[00:15:02] often what we say is, it's hard to imagine unimaginable tech because in, you know, 10 or 15 years, if we think of technology as being a thousand times. Stronger or better than it is today. The easiest way we would look for signals might be reading scientific papers. It might be looking at patents often at some of those earlier things that sound almost a little bit weird. years ago, talking robot sounded kind of weird and now. We see examples of that 

[00:15:34] Damian: Yeah. 

[00:15:35] Jennifer: place right when we think about AI and chatbots and whatnot. [00:15:40] So if I see something that sounds a little bit. 

[00:15:43] weird, uh, to try to like squash my immediate reaction of, Oh, that's crazy. Oh, that'll never happen. And instead lean into it and try to understand it and say, well, what happened? What would it be like if that became a thing? 

[00:15:55] Ilyse: Yeah, you spoke to me briefly for your profile, which is on 

[00:16:00] TheCurrent. com, and you were telling me a little bit about how AI could eventually work its way into the overall, like, car experience, especially for, like, on the consumer side. 

[00:16:13] Jennifer: Yeah, sure. So, you know, we're not talking about anything specific when it comes to the technology in our cars, but thinking about it in terms of what we see happening outside of the car and and how that might change the experience. I think that really kind of obvious, easy application is with the way that you are interacting with your car with if you're asking it to do something, being able to have a more natural two way conversation and in a lot of ways, anticipate some of the things that you might need. For example, if you are up, uh, going into the office and let's say you're up an hour earlier than usual or something like that. Wouldn't it be great if your car said, Hey, would you like me to order? Uh, you know, the Venti at Starbucks instead of your 

[00:17:00] usual ground day? 

[00:17:00] You're up early today. Creating a relationship or in having it feel like it's almost your friend helping you along, understanding what you need and as, as technologies improve, that is the type of thing I would expect to be able to, to have a, a stronger relationship and for the car to be able to understand, um, not only what you're asking of it, but also to even anticipate What your needs might be as it learns your habits and behaviors and, and starts to, to get smarter. 

[00:17:30] Damian: Something just occurred to me, you know, I know you're focused on on an automotive kind of scenario. 

[00:17:35] But do you think about digital advertising and where that's going to? Is that something that intersects with what you think? 

[00:17:42] Jennifer: There's a lot of questions happening with respect to AI. I think digital advertising is a, is a fascinating space. If we think about ways that AI might help content creation easier. 

[00:17:52] Um, I would also expect that it would make it easier to connect with specific consumers and understanding what they need or what, um, what might 

[00:18:00] resonate with them. Understanding, you know, kind of where they're at, whether it be kind of physically where they're at, or even like mentally what space they're in, as we get better understanding of that, I would expect that AI should be able to help with that. 

[00:18:13] Ilyse: Now, you weren't always a futurist, or even a marketer, you actually come from a background of engineering why did you move into the marketing side of things? And how would you say your engineering background has really helped you in your marketing positions at Ford? 

[00:18:31] Jennifer: I would say. It was not an expected career move. If I'm honest, it was, uh, an opportunity that came up, uh, when I was in engineering, I spent a lot of time working on our in vehicle technology, on our sync systems, and this was at a time when, uh, I joke we used to always carry like Garmin systems like navigation systems in a bag. 

[00:18:54] We were carrying them into our cars at the time when I started working on putting a touchscreen directly in the 

[00:19:00] car and having all of those controls kind of in one spot. I ended up working with our marketing team quite a bit to help them with the communications, both to train our dealers and our customers for how to do these things that were all new at the time. So that was kind of when I got my feet wet with, with marketing was more helping them, uh, because I understood the technical side, but as I've, you know, moved into the marketing organization and understood more about the ways, um, that it is utilized and that it comes into the process, it is super helpful to have a background of understanding the engineering side of the work, and I can help to bring that knowledge into the conversation. 

[00:19:38] Um, sometimes it's just as simple as, Oh, if we're going and talking to the engineers, let's make sure that we've got data to back up all of these things that we're saying, because. You know, the, that will get them bought in to what we're saying. They don't want to hear a pretty story. They want to see the data. 

[00:19:53] Damian: When I was growing up, I remember I had this book called The Science in Science Fiction and it explained why certain things were possible in science 

[00:20:00] fiction films. For instance, you can't see lasers in space. Alright, there was a disappointment to me when I read that. 

[00:20:05] But my question is, um, you know, you look at the science And you also think about the future. So I'm wondering if you read a lot of science fiction, if you kind of those two things kind of work for you. 

[00:20:17] Jennifer: Yeah, sometimes. 

[00:20:18] So I do less of the reading. Sometimes I, I will watch it more just because usually, um, honestly, like. TV and media. They do a great job of pushing our thinking. Like Black Mirror, for example, um, Right. That's a great one. It's, it's kind of a, often it's like these cautionary tales, um, but they really do a good, a good job of taking something that we see today and pushing it into the future and enforcing us to think about how that might happen. 

[00:20:47] Ilyse: Obviously, a new technology is great and can be helpful, but there can also be, like Black Mirror has shown us, um, some very terrible things that can happen because of those, um, such great 

[00:21:00] technology. Um, as a futurist, my question to you is, what keeps you up at night? 

[00:21:05] Jennifer: Where do we begin? Right now, I think it, we are on the cusp of, of some very, um, potentially concerning advancements when it comes to, I think generative AI is a particularly scary one right now because of. How good it's getting at, at faking or at looking and sounding exactly like the real thing. 

[00:21:29] That one is, is particularly concerning. I think that we're going to see a lot of it. It's a political year here in the U S uh, in terms of the election coming up. So I, I will not be surprised if that comes up often. I'm curious to see how that's going to play out. 

[00:21:43] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. 

[00:21:45] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. 

[00:21:48] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. 

[00:21:54] Damian: Cairns. And remember, 

[00:21:56] Jennifer: signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends [00:21:58] Damian: I'm Damian. 

[00:21:59] Ilyse: I'm 

[00:22:00] Ilyse. 

[00:22:00] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Major League Soccer’s VP of Brand Marketing, Jesse Perl, joins The Current Podcast to discuss how young people are growing more interested in soccer, the league’s deal with Apple TV+, and the importance of building local support for MLS teams.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

TTD_S8_E10_MLS//JESSE PERLMAN

Ilyse Liffrieng: (00:01)

I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian Fowler: (00:02)

And I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:03)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Damian Fowler: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to speak with Jesse Pearl, the VP of Brand Marketing at Major League Soccer 

Ilyse Lieffring: (00:16)

For Millennials and Gen Zers. It almost feels like the MLS has been around forever, but actually the league wasn't founded until the USA's successful bid to host the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Before then, the US just wasn't a serious contender in the soccer game or football as it's commonly called across the world.

Damian Fowler: (00:34)

Times have certainly changed, but the league still has to compete with the likes of sports juggernauts like the NFL, which has long reaped higher viewership and fandom in the US. Jesse talks to us about the unique challenges the MLS faces compared to other sports leagues and how he's prepping for the upcoming 2026 FIFA World Cup and how he envisions MLS as a brand.

Jesse Perlman: (00:57)

I feel really kind of privileged to, you know, be in the role that I am because I think brand really guides how we think about what MLS is and, and what we stand for in the world. And I think there's no real separation, no real daylight between the MLS brand and and MLS. And I think it's really, it's kind of the, the DNA and and the heartbeat of who we are. And I think one of the first things about the MLS brand that's really important is that we are proudly North American. There's a lot of stuff in the world, there's a lot of sports in the world, there's a lot of soccer in the world. And being North American, being kind of uniquely North American, this idea of creating our own North American version of what soccer means is actually really powerful. And I think if, if we look at all these different places across North America, the US and Canada, where MLS is thriving, I think it is about being able to tap into something that really represents, you know, what those cities are.

Jesse Perlman: (01:49)

There's a kind of an attitude and a spirit of North America that is really kind of transcendent in culture, right? I think North American culture itself is, is an export. And for us it's this idea of being really positive and confident, but in a really sort of positive way. So this kind of infectious positive North American spirit and attitude where we're kind of getting to remix the best of international soccer as well as the best of North American sports traditions and kind of make our own thing out of it. We've got playoffs, right? That's not something that happens in soccer, but I think we just kind of witnessed why it's, why it's great. And all of that sort of creates this idea of, of another part of our brand, which is this idea that, you know, without overstating it, it's a soccer movement here that's happening in, in North America that's kind of sweeping North America. So how we get to all that really is through our supporter groups, our supporter culture, the TFOs, the chance, the Kapos, all the things that they kind of bring to the party is, um, it's really kind of the secret sauce of all of this.

Damian Fowler: (02:45)

And what's fascinating about this as well is the fast evolution of this. I want to sort of date myself and say I arrived in this country just after college in 1994, and that was when the US last time the US hosted the World Cup and now we we're seeing it's gonna be hosting it again with Canada and Mexico in 2026. So that's basically three decades, you know, and you've seen this tremendous growth of professional soccer. Could you talk a little bit about those bookends and you know, how you've seen the trajectory of the sport, how quickly the sport has grown in those three decades?

Jesse Perlman: (03:16)

It's pretty staggering, and I think even the biggest optimist, I don't think would've bet that we'd get to where we are as quickly as we did. The 2026 World Cup is such a great kind of marker to, to kind of measure these things because you know, our story, the story of MLS starts with the 1994 World Cup for sure, right? We fulfilled what the hope and the potential, you know, was, you know, we launched in 96, you know, on the heels of the 94 World Cup. And by the way, that's in no way to say that we're declaring victory in its job done for us. I think to be in 29 cities, to have the amount of soccer specific stadiums we have to have the support that we have in these MLS communities that are, you know, settin record attendance to look at media partnerships like Apple that I think are rewriting the scripts in sports media to have the current reigning ballon d’or World Cup champion greatest player of all time messy here in our league, you know, to look at the young up and coming players, homegrown players, stars from, you know, some of the most storied teams in in South America and players that'll also, you know, will sell for record fees that go on to win Champions league games.

Jesse Perlman: (04:26)

And, and so I think it's really, I think the complete picture of everything that we could have hoped to set out to do. But for sure, you know, the the best is still yet to come.

Ilyse Lieffring: (04:35)

But you know, North America, particularly the US I would say, aren't known for being big soccer fans. So what would you say are like the challenges and then the opportunities of marketing soccer in this context?

Jesse Perlman: (04:49)

You know, I do think it's changing when you look at youth, when you look at Gen Z, when you look at six to 14 and 14 to 18, and these critical ages of where fandom is really, you know, set and takes root, soccer's a top sport of interest, that's been the trend and that trend is continuing and it's really favorable for us as a sport. You know, millennials, right? Are, are now parents of young kids and, and we know the influence that parents have on the interest of, of their children. And there are some kind of studies came out, uh, recently naming MLS as a top 10 fastest growing brand along among millennials right there alongside our, our great partner, you know, apple tv. So especially as marketers means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.

Jesse Perlman: (05:36)

We've got nothing but respect and admiration for the other North American sports leagues, whether that's the NFL or NBA or I think what we've got all is respect and admiration. I think we're also able to kind of look at, you know, some of those traditional North American leagues as traditional. We really feel like we get the permission to to be the enemy of tradition sometimes. And, and, and we love that. So I think kind of being able to stand for the things that differentiate us is ultimately how I think we'll continue to, to win over time.

Ilyse Lieffring: (06:03)

Are there any numbers you can point to that show the growth of the MLS over these past three decades?

Jesse Perlman: (06:09)

Big picture. There's, you know, there's probably a few things that are, that do really kind of stand out and I think kind of signal the continued kind of really explosive growth. Um, you know, one of the most important in sports is attendance. And we're continuing to set record attendance year over year. We just had another record year. That's a huge indicator. You know, ultimately there's um, we're in entertainment, right? And we're competing against, you know, sitting at home on your couch and binge watch and Netflix and you know, going to the latest restaurant and whatever else you can do. And I think for people to be motivated to go out there, go to the stadiums in record numbers kind of says it all. And I think in addition to that, we can look at things like valuation of an MLS franchise. You know, I believe LAFC was reported in Forbes as just crossing the, uh, the billion dollar threshold for franchise valuation.

Jesse Perlman: (06:56)

I could tell you when I joined in 2007, 2008, that was not the value of an MLS franchise. And all those kind of economic indicators I think are, are really healthy. And um, even if it's not necessarily an exact quantified metric, you know, the ability to go out there and, and have a, you know, media partnership like Apple again, right, or Adidas partnership in these best in in category global brands, I think again is another indicator. And I think the last one that's worth mentioning is the brick and mortar kind of growth. Here again, I think when I started we had, you know, a handful of soccer specific stadiums and now virtually all of our teams are, if they're not already playing in a soccer specific stadium, they're in the process of open the doors on one.

Damian Fowler: (07:35)

One other thing that stands out to me is as to go back to that nineties thing, I remember when I came here, I could, it was hard to actually find, you know, international games on the dial, on cable channels. Obviously in the last few years we've seen this sort of flourishing of the game across many streaming channels. I mean, you can watch the Premier League on Peacock, you can watch Champions League on Paramount Plus and media and the presence of media is such an important driver of fandom. Is that one of the big factors for the MLS?

Jesse Perlman: (08:07)

No doubt. Similarly, right? Like growing up, you know, in the nineties being a huge soccer fan, right? You had to work so hard to seek it out. I remember running to the Barnes and Nobles to get my monthly magazine of 442 or World Soccer and um, that was how you stayed current. Now there's so much access, right? Ultimately I think that's a good thing for us, more people watching more soccer. I think it just, you know, increases the amount of interest and curiosity and, and conversation. And there's certainly a lot of, you know, competition for eyeballs. And you know, what we're trying to win more than anything is as hearts and minds. And, um, it's great for you to be a fan of other soccer teams and clubs and leagues and we really do embrace that. But if you're here in the US and Canada, you really can't get up close to that, right? And so being a fan of MLS just means something different. That's where we really feel like it's a huge differentiator that access, you know, to kind of be a part of an MLS community.

Damian Fowler: (09:00)

Can you talk a little bit about the significance of the Apple TV season pass?

Jesse Perlman: (09:05)

It's a game changer. It really is in so many ways. I mean, I think the first thing for me is as a marketer, as a, as a kind of brand leader, there's probably no brand that's more recognized and admired than Apple on the planet, the ability for us to become an Apple brand, which I think is what's happened, right? It changes the perception, the reach of Apple, the scale, the reach, the deep love and admiration for their brand that people have. All those are really just kind of the starting points. But when you get inside the sort of Apple world and you kind of realize and learn like how many incredible layers there are to their growing and expanding ecosystem of products and services and ways for MLS to show up and, and be a part of that, you know, we just officially wrapped our first season together.

Jesse Perlman: (09:50)

When we kind of think about all the things we were able to do as co marketers, even year one, it's been a really fantastic starting point and we had some incredible activations around Messi, his game here in New York. We were able to work with our friends and partner with them at New York, Red Bulls and Apple to have this, you know, kind of takeover in Times Square of a live viewin party that sort of traveled around the world. That moment of people gather in Times Square to to watch Messi on a giant Times Square billboard. And I think some of the real sort of inside culture things that we did with Apple Music, you know again, partnering with great club like Nashville had a kit inspired by a Johnny Cash, the Man in black kit working with the Johnny Cash Estate and Apple Music. We all kind of came together working with some incredible music artists and talents to cover Johnny Cash songs. And so these really kind of integrated kind of campaigns that we were able to to do. Um. 

Damian Fowler: (10:42)

I wanted to ask you, uh, Jesse, about the kind of cross-fertilization with international leagues. You know, I'm a big fan of Liverpool, I watch the Premier League every weekend and you know, obviously there's La Liga and then, you know, la bundesliga, all of those things, you know, and football from south of the border. How does that work? How is that an important factor in driving fandom and is it a sort of cross fertilization or is it like a separate kind of group of fans?

Jesse Perlman: (11:07)

No, I think, I think it's really additive are clubs that are really succeeding and have these, the thriving kind of fan bases that they do. Those fans are also fans of other international soccer teams and, and we love that it's part of the, the thing that we love about soccer as a sport for anybody that truly loves it, it's the kind of international dimension is like what makes it different than other sports, right? For me personally, it's been a lens to kind of learn about the world and learn about other cultures and it really kind of expands people. We're never shying away from that. I think we want everybody who's a fan and has a team in, whether it's in, you know, the Premier League or the Bundesliga or Serie A or anywhere else around the world, or Argentina or Mexico, Liga MX, you know, we want them to know that they're invited to still be loyal fans of, of those teams, whether it's passed down from generation to generation or something they discovered on their own. 'cause all that is complimentary, right? I think, you know, that's part of what being a soccer fan, you know, looks like. So we, we embrace it.

Ilyse Lieffring: (12:05)

As much as it's a global game. It's very much made up of very localized fans at the same time, how important are local efforts in each city? For instance, building stadiums or the infrastructure, how is that key to driving that local support or community supports?

Jesse Perlman: (12:25)

Really as important as anything. And I think it's been what's defined this incredible growth period for MLS. We were kind of chatting earlier about like what it means to be North American and the importance of this kind of brick and mortar investment and building these like incredible cathedrals to soccer. And I think not just building stadiums, but building 'em in the right places, right? Building these in the kind of heart of the downtowns. I think it's made all the difference and, and continues to, and it's really timely. I mean, we just had MLS cup in [email protected] field, brand new state-of-the-art best in sports anywhere in the world placed to watch live sports. That stadium was rocking, you know, it was completely electric fan, 28, 30,000 strong in the rain, right? Singing enchanting for 90 minutes and the streets were alive, the city was alive. And you don't have to go back that far to just kind of be reminded of how this franchise went through like one of the most traumatic things you could go through in sports, right?

Jesse Perlman: (13:20)

There was ownership change, there was concern about what the crew still be around. It's an emphatic like not only are they here, but they just won MLS cup again. On and off the field I think it's so important that it's so local. You know, I think what Columbus represents to crew fans is, you know, is so different than the team that, that came to play them in Columbus. These clubs, they represent really different ideas and communities and, and fan bases, but the common thread is that what they really represent is their cities and, and the idea of their cities in this moment in 2023, I don't think there are brands that better represent Columbus and you know, how it sees itself. I think it being local and localized and really kind of deeply rooted in these, you know, local communities and cultures has been the difference maker.

Damian Fowler: (14:07)

As I mentioned, I'm a Liverpool fan, and Anfield is, you know, very much a Liverpudlian tradition and they have the traditions there. And at the same time, if you look at the field, it's absolutely international. And so it's that beautiful kind of conjunction of the local and the global. Wanted to ask you about that international presence, you know, the, the MLS of course has been drawing headlines. How do you see the star power playing into your marketing efforts?

Jesse Perlman: (14:31)

It's another part of what makes sports sports, right? Star players. It's another part of why people tune into sports, why they care about sports and love sports. And you know, certainly people are fans of teams and clubs and, but people also really care about players, right? And some of them will become fans of a team because they're fans of a player. The other thing that's so special about sports, and I think even more so with soccer is who's gonna be the next star? The idea of like the emerging stars, especially we think about these homegrowns the future of the US men's and for the US and Canada national teams. And you know, I think as we look at, you know, Messi, right? We're equally excited about Benjamin Cremaschi learning from a guy like Lionel Messi every day, right? These kind of, you know, future world beaters that are coming through MLS and we're really spending a lot of time and, and energy and focus on how do we continue to hype up all the right players, but especially these, these up and commerce, these emerging stars and really sort of build their brands on and off the field and help more people kind of, you know, fall in love with them because they have incredible stories and we're gonna be hearing about them for years to come.

Damian Fowler: (15:35)

I heard that the Messi shirt in that iconic pink sold out instantly, impossible to get.

Jesse Perlman: (15:41)

It is, uh, I can tell you firsthand, I, uh, I failed as an uncle on, uh, on Hanukkah to come up with the goods for my nephews. So it is truly, it is a scarce product.

Ilyse Lieffring: (15:51)

You know, along with more like just sports documentaries out there on streaming channels, there's also like the rise of live sports at the same time. How would you say the rise in like live sports and streaming contribute to the rise of soccer overall in the us?

Jesse Perlman: (16:06)

Well, I think it's only increased the amount of soccer that's available for sure. I think we've got more access to more soccer here in the US than just about anywhere in the world. You know, there's probably a lot of people that'd be surprised to learn that, but you know, as a Liverpool fan, I'm sure you'd agree, there's a lot of people in the UK that like, man, that is a pain point in life is just how hard it can be to, to kind of watch the, so you wanna watch and the amount of blackouts and how you kind of just gotta jump through hoops to, uh, be able to watch games sometimes. And so we're spoiled for choice here, and I think streaming has only increased that to me it's an indicator of this is the sport for the future, right? Gen Z and, and younger fans, linear TV is not where they're spending their time, right? They're spending their time on devices and streaming and places like YouTube and, and places like Apple tv. And so I think it's great for us that we're ahead of the curve on that respect as far as kind of live games, and I think we're just so well positioned for that.

Ilyse Lieffring: (16:59)

The US also gets to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup along, of course with Canada and Mexico. How are you planning to ladder up your marketing to this massive global event,

Jesse Perlman: (17:13)

I guess can't reveal all the secrets, but No, it's very much in focus for us and to really be thinking multi-year about not just how does the marketing kind of ramp up to the World's Cup, but how does all of our activity as a business really deliberately think about what that's gonna mean for us. I think what's really interesting is during the World's Cup is gonna be the noisiest loudest, most crowded for anybody else marketer. I think everybody's gonna be trying to find a way to talk about the World Cup and soccer, whether, whether they've got the official, you know, FIFA rights to do that or not. And I, and I think all that noise is gonna be, is gonna be good, good, right? I think soccer is just gonna really bleed into the mainstream conversation, uh, in a way that'll kind of eclipse, um, you know, anything before it.

Jesse Perlman: (17:59)

But I think as, as you know, as marketers here at MLS I, I think the most critical moment for us is actually gonna be what do we do the day the World Cup ends? You know? And I think that's really the incredible opportunity for us to seize because, you know, that kind of World Cup Fever that everybody's gonna catch, the World Cup's gonna be incredible, but it's gonna, it's gonna come and go. There's gonna be a lot of people here that aren't gonna be able to make it to World Cup games that maybe wanted to or maybe wanted to take their kids to it, or it got priced out, or there's only so many seats in so many games. And for MLS to really make sure everybody knows where they can find us, how they can find us, again, I think meet that, meet that moment is, is gonna be, uh, I think it's really gonna be the, the big unlock for us.

Damian Fowler: (18:46)

And that's it for season eight of the current podcast. Stay tuned for our next season of interviews with the industry's top marketing leaders.

Ilyse Lieffring: (18:54)

The current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The Trade Desk team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce

Damian Fowler: (19:02)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly digest of what's making news across the open internet. And remember,

Jesse Perlman: (19:14)

Especially as marketers, means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.

Damian Fowler: (19:25)

I'm Damian,

Ilyse Lieffring: (19:26)

And I'm Ilyse. 

Damian Fowler: (19:27)

And we'll see you next time.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

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Now firmly entrenched in Americans’ shopping habits, Instacart is eyeing the growing retail media space. Laura Jones, CMO of Instacart, joins The Current Podcast to share the strategy behind the company’s tie-ups with Peacock and Roku and how she’s reaching shoppers by framing them as the COOs of their households.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing And

Damian: (00:04)

Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we're delighted to talk with Laura Jones, the chief marketing Officer of Instacart.

Damian: (00:16)

Laura has been on a rampage at Instacart since she left Uber and joined the company. In June, 2021, Laura launched the brand's first integrated brand campaign, built an internal creative studio and performance media function, and scaled the marketing department five times to more than 150 people. What

Ilyse: (00:35)

Started as a grocery delivery service quickly boomed during the pandemic to the point where Instacart now has over 7 million monthly active orders and works with 1400 retailers growing into areas like retail media, on and off its platform.

Laura: (00:55)

So Instacart started just over a decade ago and started out as a grocery delivery company. And then when you fast forward to today, the business looks a lot different, the world has changed a lot, there's been a global pandemic and we've come out the other side and Instacart has really evolved over the course of this journey. So we've transformed from being just grocery, just delivery to now a service that has many more retailers on the platform. Of course, uh, most of America's top grocers, but other verticals that we serve like beauty with Sephoras, um, home improvement with Lowe's, as well as of course different modalities. So there's delivery, there's pickup, and we've extended into, uh, B2B offerings as well. So we have a retail enablement platform that our retailers use to power some of their online grocery services and pickups and really continuing to innovate now even getting into in-store.

Laura: (01:54)

So really thinking about how, you know, in a post pandemic world, customers are really shopping in a more omnichannel way. It's not just delivery, it's not just in-store, it's much more of a hybrid. So we've developed technologies like caper carts or carrot tags, other in-store tools that help bring some of the magic of online shopping into that in-store experience. So you can see that the company has really evolved and as a result, you know, the way that we're thinking about our brand and the future of innovation at the company has to evolve and keep pace as well.

Ilyse: (02:30)

On that note, from a brand perspective, how have you really worked to evolve the identity of Instacart from that delivery service to a major media platform? Now

Laura: (02:40)

We really wanted to build across all four sides of the marketplace and make sure that we were building a brand that would mirror the dynamism is of the business. So really wanted to root ourselves in, in our heritage and in our core equity, which of course is the carrot, and really stretch that, um, into a new design system that would enable us to show up and in a really seamless way in all these new different touchpoints that that we have. And so a lot of what my journey has been has been really trying to build out that marketing team across the four sides of the marketplace and build out all the different functions. So of course, continuing to double down on our performance marketing strength, but also building out functions like product marketing, brand marketing, making sure we have great co-marketing teams to partner with both our retailers and our advertisers so that we can go to market in partnership with all of them. And what that enables for us is not just to be a marketing team, but also to help enable other marketing teams. From a co-marketing standpoint, we have, uh, 5,500 brands on our platform from category leaders to emerging brands. And this next chapter of marketing is really about partnering with those brands as well as with our retail partners to make sure that we are going to market using all of our channels together and really helping provide insights to help each of their business grow.

Ilyse: (04:12)

How do you feel all these additives have really helped differentiate the brand, not only from a consumer standpoint, but perhaps to advertisers as

Laura: (04:23)

Well? One of the things that this has unlocked for us is the ability to do true full funnel marketing. So instead of just capturing inbound demand through, um, those classical performance channels, we've also been able to really start to generate more demand by going out there and reaching a broader audience and telling a more robust story across channels. So we see that by showing up in both upper and lower funnel and doing so in a coordinated way, we're able to really grow the category and deepen the use cases for existing users as well. So it's been a really critical, uh, business driver that we can go out with a full funnel program. Then from a advertiser standpoint, because of this depth that we have and the level of sophistication that we have when it comes to our own consumer marketing, I think that gives us a, a really thoughtful edge when it comes to thinking about how we're building tools for our advertisers.

Laura: (05:23)

So of course, I think the reason that most advertisers come to Instacart in the beginning is just because we are so close to the point of purchase, we are quite literally at the point of purchase. So what we find is that our ads on average deliver more than a 15% incremental sales lift and in some cases twice that for our brand partners. So it's a really valuable service to, to our partners, but again, inspired by our own journey, we've thought a lot about creating more spaces in the upper funnel for our advertisers. So of course, sponsored product listings and pricing and promotional discounts are, are wonderful, but once you've tapped out that kind of low hanging fruit from a demand standpoint, you need to generate more demand. What I was talking about, you know, from our own first party experience and the way that we do that is through introducing new formats that help drive more consideration for consumers that might be a bit higher up in that purchase funnel.

Laura: (06:19)

And so what that looks like for us are shoppable video ads, shoppable display ads in ways to help introduce customers to new categories or products that they might not have been actively considering before that shopping session, but we can actually really make that case to get them focused on it, get their attention, and then help drive that purchase and really be able to measure again, the impact of, of those different formats. The final frontier, which I think will bring the two together and that we've started on this year is that co-marketing I was mentioning. So we can move up the funnel within our own platform, but I think the, the really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on. Um, the co-marketing campaign we did earlier this year with AB InBev, um, in the NFL playoffs, um, making their TV campaign shoppable and integrating it with our CRM system so that we could deliver push notifications timed to hit folks as they're viewing TV ads. And we've done a ton of that over the past year and we're really excited to see the momentum that this program has in addition to our on-platform ads.

Damian: (07:37)

Could you talk a little bit more about how you use customer data to kind of close that gap between the top and the bottom of the funnel?

Laura: (07:46)

We take data protection and privacy very seriously. We don't tell consumer data to our retail partners, nor do we share competitive data across retailers or brands. Uh, what we do do is leverage anonymized, aggregated insights. And I think that's especially powerful in this world where our industry is grappling with signal loss and looming third party cookie deprecation. And so that's why this data is really valuable and can be provide a lot of insights to our partners as we think about, you know, how can we more effectively target folks at different stages in the funnel. From our standpoint, we have an incredibly deep understanding of online purchase behavior. Our customers are building large baskets, they're spending a lot of time to engage. They're doing their primary weekly grocery shop on the platform. And so we have a lot of insights about the, the purchase behavior that underlies that.

Laura: (08:44)

We can also surface insights about complimentary or adjacent purchasing behavior. So for example, if someone's buying peanut butter, it's pretty likely that they might also be buying jelly. And and some of those are obvious, like the ones I just described, but some of them are maybe not as obvious. So cat and dog food customers are more likely to purchase coffee on Instacart than the average Instacart consumer, that that is not as obvious as peanut butter and jelly or customers who buy diapers are more likely to also purchase jerky and trail mix. So if you imagine, you know, being a marketer and having access to this data, it really helps you, number one with the targeting. And number two, just getting those kind of deeper insights that help you have those aha moments that might help you think about your consumer in a whole new way.

Ilyse: (09:28)

Now in 2022, you introduced display ads onto your platform. How important are these units really to those big CPG companies? And then how do these display units actually help the smaller brands compete with the larger ones?

Laura: (09:43)

Yeah, so display ads are a great way for brands looking to bring engaging, targeted creative content to consumers. And this really helps with driving brand awareness, new product introductions and inspiration while people are browsing those digital aisles. And so these kinds of top of funnel units, um, can be especially useful I think for emerging brands that might be less familiar to consumers or for new or emerging categories where there might be more education required. And then for larger brands, shoppable display units are a great way to showcase complimentary products across the portfolio and really help with that regimen building. And it does so all within one shoppable ad unit. And of course that's a adjacent to all of the other kinds of ad units that A CPG can purchase, like a sponsored product listing or pricing and promotional discount. So you can really tell a story and then provide incentives for consumers to convert and get that full closed loop measurement all at once.

Ilyse: (10:44)

This past advertising week, New York Instacart announced it would begin to work with brands to reach customers off platform for brands this can turn their Instacart approach into more of an omni-channel strategy, basically allowing them to reach Instacart's customers across channels like CTV and display. Can you describe the value in this arrangement for advertisers?

Laura: (11:08)

What we're really trying to do here is provide a way for our CPG advertisers to leverage our data across all their media buys. You know, it really helps us realize this vision of leveraging data to help our partners grow their businesses and doing so in a way that is even more flexible for them. And so they're able to layer their programmatic campaigns with exclusive Instacart data to build category based segments. Like for example, somebody who's bought their category but not their brand, somebody who's bought their brand lapsed brand purchasers or someone who's never purchased with their brand. And this kind of targeting as a marketer is of course so valuable. Um, and we're really excited to have this pilot live and to start looking at how we can continue to lean into this capability and really enable our partners to grow their businesses.

Damian: (12:04)

Now you recently announced that you'd be bundling, uh, NBCU streaming service peacock for Instacart plus subscribers. You've also partnered with Roku. So I'm wondering if you could talk about the natural synergies between Instacart and streaming platforms like that.

Laura: (12:19)

The customer we serve, we like to think of as the COO of their household. They're often someone who might be a, a busy parent or a busy individual who's got a lot going on. And oftentimes, you know, there are folks that really do enjoy, um, in that limited spare time they have. They can be streaming their favorite shows and getting their grocery shopping done at once. So it's a real win-win. And and it's also, you know, I think from an advertiser standpoint, exciting because again, with Roku, if you have somebody who's watching an ad and shopping on Instacart, again, you have that ability to really start to close the loop in terms of the incremental impact of those ads as, as evidenced through Instacart purchase data.

Damian: (13:01)

Could you say a little bit more about how that gap between CTV and shoppable ads is closing? I know we touched on that earlier in the conversation, but how has Instacart as a media platform really enabled this kind of connection?

Laura: (13:14)

You know, I think brands often struggle with attribution from top of funnel, and this is something of course, you know, even when we're going out with top of funnel, it's hard. It's, it's a harder measurement journey than, you know, click-based ads. Um, and so our closed loop measurement is able to offer that higher confidence in media buys. And so being able to actually measure the impact of off platform ads and see that born out in, in the data from Instacart and showing the incrementality of those ads has been really huge for our advertisers.

Damian: (13:53)

What would you say will be a good example of how that discovery at the top of a funnel and performance with shoppable ads kind of merged?

Laura: (14:00)

A great example of that was our partnership with AB InBev this year, um, in the lead up to the Super Bowl. And so we were able to partner with Michelob Ultra and they were the first partner to create an Instacart co-marketing campaign that leveraged this shoppable capability via a QR code. We were able to really support them in this full funnel campaign that was running across linear social C-T-V-O-T-T and making sure that for every time they were out there with a brand message, there was a clear path to conversion for that consumer. What is so exciting about that is that for us, we get to show up with a brand that people absolutely love and really have a, a strong use case for of course, um, beer and, and football as we all know, go very well together. Um, and for them there was the ability to drive consumers to purchase and to really, you know, go from watching an ad to being able to have that product delivered in as fast as 30 minutes.

Laura: (15:06)

That's actually really game changing and I'm so excited when I think about what we could do with that. And especially when you start to layer in other channels like CRM and social and the ability for that kind of concurrent consumption connected to an entertainment event, I think could be really game changing. And we're seeing this really starting to pay off. So in Q3, our advertising and other revenue was up 19% year over year, and this is really driven by stronger than anticipated advertiser spending. And when we think about next year, we're really excited to continue to show up in these key seasonal moments, whether that's cold and flu, football, spring cleaning, or Mother's Day.

Damian: (15:44)

That's interesting. Do you have any brand campaigns coming up in 2024 that you are able to talk about?

Laura: (15:51)

We are currently shooting a really great set of spots against the cold and flu season. Uh, it's funny because it's not the most glamorous time of year, so, you know, when we were initially talking about showing up with a campaign, I was a little bit like, oh, is this really how we wanna show up as a brand? But then when I thought about our value proposition, which is really taking care of that COO of the household, and these people are caregivers and we help them take care of themselves and their families. So we're excited to lean into that moment and hopefully tell some stories that really resonate with consumers and and with our brand partners.

Ilyse: (16:30)

How do you think about the evolving Instacart brand looking towards the future

Laura: (16:37)

From a brand identity standpoint? We've got an amazing foundation to build equity with from a brand storytelling standpoint. We've got an endless trove of stories to tell because every day in the life of a, of a busy household conductor is is full of those moments of trials and tribulations and moments where Instacart can really come in and, and help offer that care for that head of household. So I think that in the year ahead, we've got a great year ahead of us and a ton of momentum from a brand standpoint and only made stronger by the strength of our retailer and CPG brands when we show up together in the market.

Damian: (17:19)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.

Ilyse: (17:25)

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Festi.

Damian: (17:34)

And remember, the

Laura: (17:35)

Really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on.

Damian: (17:50)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm eis and I'm Damien and we'll see you next time.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

BBDO created the iconic Snickers “You’re Not You When You’re Hungry” campaign. The agency’s President and CEO, Andrew Robertson, breaks down the power of humor.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: (00:02)

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

Damian: (00:04)

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Ilyse: (00:10)

This week we sit down with Andrew Robertson, who has been the president and CEO of BBDO Worldwide since 2004.

Damian: (00:19)

No doubt over his career, he's had a bird's eye view of creative trends in the ad industry. And last year he gave a keynote presentation in the Palai at Cannes Lions and why humor is one of the most effective tools in advertising.

Ilyse: (00:32)

And yet he pointed out that funny ads have been on the decline for 20 years. He reminded the crowd that having a laugh is also good for business.

Damian: (00:42)

Since that talk, Cannes Lions has added a humor category to its awards for 2024. Maybe we have Andrew Robertson to thank for that.

Ilyse: (00:58)

Before we start, we thought it might be a good idea to take a listen to some recent funny ads, starting with this one from T-Mobile starring Bradley Cooper. And of course his mom

Ad: (01:10)

Does T-Mobile really have a 5G

Ad: (01:12)

America's largest 5G network. Try it again. Oh

Ad: (01:15)

My God, you look like a flamingo in

Ad: (01:17)

This. Okay. The America's largest, largest five network network. How can I help you? Hi, how are you? , can I help you? You're

Ad: (01:26)

Making me crazy.

Damian: (01:27)

And here's a bit from Workday's. Big game spot titled Rockstar featuring. You guessed it. Real rock stars like Kiss Front man, Paul Stanley, Joan Jet, Billy Idol, and Ozzy Osborne.

Ad: (01:39)

Hey, corporate types. Well, you stop calling each other rock stars. You're

Ad: (01:42)

A rockstar. You are a rockstar.

Ad: (01:44)

Rock stars, please.

Ad: (01:46)

You know what it takes to be a rockstar. I've trashed. I rums in 43 countries. I was on the road since I was 16.

Ad: (01:53)

I've done my share of bad things. Also your share of bad things.

Damian: (01:57)

And finally, we are big fans of Liquid Death here at the current. Their latest dad takes a bold and unconventional approach to raise awareness about plastic waste on the planet. And it does this while making a smile and cringe all at the same time.

Ad: (02:12)

Thanks to our proprietary and somewhat pain-free surgical method, a sexier planet begins with a sexier you.

Ad: (02:22)

Now I'm practically oozing with beauty.

Damian: (02:26)

Thanks. Liquid death.

Ad: (02:28)

Now we can use old plastic bottles to enhance anything. And I mean anything.

Ilyse: (02:34)

Oh my gosh. Ouch. , that's a good one. Well, the good news is there's plenty more funny where that came from, but let's hear from Anju first.

Andrew: (02:44)

I gotta be honest. When I made the proposal in the presentation that there should be a line for humor, it was really only to get another joke into the presentation. Um, but that was really the only reason I did, did it. However, I'm really thrilled that they have gone ahead and done it. That was a turning point. I think it was a turning point in terms of the work that was getting awarded at Cannes. I think it was a turning point at, in terms of the work that was being entered. Um, and I think my, I think my presentation was just, you know, the right thing at the right time. It was something I wanted to get off my chest. And judging by the response from the audience and the feedback I got subsequently, it was something a lot of people wanted to hear at that moment.

Damian: (03:30)

Let's go back to your presentation a little bit. I I loved it. You kicked it off with this fantastic story about when you first learned that humor sells. I, I wonder if you wouldn't mind recapping a bit of that story.

Andrew: (03:43)

When I was, uh, a student, I had a number of kind of part-time gigs. And one of them was selling vax vacuum cleaners door to door. And for those who don't know, it was a very powerful vacuum cleaner developed by a dairy farmer who adapted one of his milking machines. And it was by far the best suction you could get out of a, out of a vacuum cleaner. But they were bright orange and they weighed like 90 pounds and cost 300. It was a difficult thing to sell. It was a difficult thing to carry, frankly, from door to door. But I learned, I learned a couple of things. One was that sometimes, um, when people believe that what they've got is good enough, you have to find a way to dramatize the fact that it isn't. And in the case of the vax vacuum cleaner, the thing that worked, the thing that could convert people was if I could show them that something they thought was really clean was in fact full of dirt and that vaxx could solve that for them.

Andrew: (04:38)

And by far the most compelling demo of that was to vacuum their bed, their mattress. 'cause everybody likes to think their mattress is really clean, but it, but with a vax vacuum, the mattress, and you just get all sorts of terrible stuff coming out of it. And if I could get to that demo nine times outta 10 people would spend the 300 pounds and, and buy the bright orange machine. So I used to like, I'd ring the doorbell and nine times outta 10, the door would be open by a woman. And I was standing on the doorstep and I would say, my name's Andrew Robertson. I'm presenting the Vxx Vacuum Company. Can we go up to your bedroom? And most of the time they laughed. Most of the time they laughed. And then once they'd laughed, we could then have a conversation where I'd say, well, I really do want to go up to your bedroom because I want to show you just how powerful this vacuum cleaner is. And, and most of the time it worked. But the point I learned was that, um, overcoming resistance to your cell is, is really important. And the best way to do that, the best way to disarm people and to make them like you, is to make them laugh.

Damian: (05:45)

You had some kantar research that showed a steady decline in the use of humor, not just the last five years, but over the last 20 years. What does the data show about why humor declined? I suppose?

Andrew: (05:56)

I mean, there could be a load of things. I think one of the, one of the big trends across that period has been the emergence of the importance of purpose, brand purpose. Um, and I think that that along with that has come, um, a belief and I, but it's a belief that I don't share that, uh, if you have a serious purpose, you should find a way of bringing it to life in a serious way. Um, and, and I think that may account for some of it. Uh, there's certainly, if you look at the data drops in the use of humor in advertising according to that Kantar data during the, um, global recession in 2008, 2009, and then again during the pandemic. And I, I think that is a result of people believing, you know, these are difficult times and people are having a really rough and we need to make sure we're not tone deaf and we need to, uh, we shouldn't do anything funny because it's, it's not appropriate. It's a logical thought process. It's just not true. And I think what happens is when you have those step changes like we had in 2008, 2009, the level drops and then it, and then it doesn't come back up again. Those I would say are the two most significant moments.

Ilyse: (07:15)

But do you see it coming back now?

Andrew: (07:17)

There's actually some pretty good data about what's happened in the last six months and how many more humorous ads are being tested. I'm hopeful that it can be revived.

Ilyse: (07:27)

That's great. I mean, I think everybody is down for a laugh these days. Um, but would you say it's also good for business?

Andrew: (07:34)

90% of people will say that, um, they're more likely to remember an ad that is funny. 80% of people say they're more likely to recommend a brand that is funny. 91% of people say they want brands to be funny. And 72% say they would choose a humorous brand over the competition. And that's all kind of claimed behavior. And it's not surprising if you think about the way we are as human beings, if you make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, that's an experience that're going to remember. And when your brand is next presented to them, that's what they're gonna draw on.

Ilyse: (08:12)

One of the reasons you say that people have an inhibition around humor is that it's not compatible with purpose-driven messaging. But you found that not to be the case.

Andrew: (08:23)

It's important for brands to have a meaningful and relevant purpose. The flaw in the logic in my view, is that necessarily that means that when you try to bring that purpose to life or talk about it or dramatize it, uh, you have to do so in a very serious way. You can have a really serious or really important cause or purpose. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it in a way that's going to, people are gonna find amusing. I I showed an example of, of President Obama. He was the president of the United States, pretty big job. Uh, his signature legislative achievement was the Affordable Care Act. And there was a, a website that was built by the government so that people could take advantage of this and it didn't work. And his way of dealing with it was not to do an earn speech about it. His way of dealing with it was to do a funny or die video. That was really, really funny. That's a great way to apologize. It's a great way to say I'm sorry. And when he did that, it was watched by, I think it was 40 or 50 million people. But, but the more important fact is that the number of people who went on the site went up by 40%.

Damian: (09:31)

I'm wondering, can we make the case that humor builds engagement no matter which channel it's on?

Andrew: (09:36)

You know, this fundamental point that if you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more. A few years ago I was in LA and I was due to come back to New York and I got a text message from American Airlines. It's one of the best things I've ever seen, which is not a sentence I expected to say about a text message from American Airlines. But the text message said, you may want to pack an umbrella. We're expecting storms tomorrow. Flights will be delayed and some may be canceled. If you can, you should probably travel on another day. And all of the technology and data that's necessary to ensure that that bit of information, very, very relevant information got to me in the palm of my hand at the right time, right message, right time, all of that technology is great. But if it hadn't been written the way it was, instead of smiling and feeling good, I would probably have been angry. 'cause if it, if the same information was, you know, all caps, weather alert, uh, storms expected on East Coast delays, likely my reaction would've been completely different. I would've been angry instead of which I was smiling. I did get delayed. I then got diverted. I was sitting on the runway in, um, Dulles for, for three hours and I didn't get mad.

Ilyse: (11:07)

There's really an arc to it.

Andrew: (11:09)

Yeah, I mean, I, I would, I would challenge that assumption. I don't think it matters what medium you are consuming or probably what situation you are in. Maybe with a couple of extreme examples, if you can get somebody to laugh and feel good, they are going to thank you for it. That old expression of laughter being the best medicine there is, is true. That's true. If you can make people laugh, they will feel better and they will thank you for it. By, in our case, buying your brand, how you make people laugh, the topic, the content, the idea that you bring to life that creates this feeling, what you build that around is, has to be handled very sensitively. What I'm arguing is that no matter what state of mind people are in, if you can find a way to make them smile and laugh and feel good, they're gonna thank you for it with their business.

Ilyse: (12:06)

What would you say is the funniest campaigns that you've worked on?

Andrew: (12:10)

You are not you and you're hungry for. Snickers is a campaign that's that's rooted in making people laugh. Um, it's, you know, running in 83 countries, it's in its 13th year, it's been outrageously successful for the brand.

Damian: (12:24)

Is that a negotiation between, you know, you as the creative and, and the the client? Do you talk about the style, the content and whether it should be funny? Does that come up or is that sort of an organic process?

Andrew: (12:36)

The key to making something funny is you have to under, you have to understand the premise. And there are cases where that humor is generated around premises that people might understand, but just not like the fundamental point of if you can, if you can create a premise that people understand you have the launching pad for something that could be humorous. That's true everywhere. It's an organic process, it's an organic process. And if you have something that makes the client laugh, the client will laugh. Usually the same way as the audience will laugh if something's funny. It's funny. And getting people to recognize the value of it is sometimes a function of getting them to experience it. The bit that gets complicated is when people are arguing about whether something is funny or not, it takes ingenuity and creativity. And sometimes I think the bigger problem is, is not that people don't want to do something that is funny, it's that what they do isn't actually that funny.

Damian: (13:41)

Do you ever get to a point where , you know, you've got the final asset there and it's like, Hmm, it's just not that funny? Or does, does that ever happen? Or does it get that far?

Andrew: (13:49)

Yeah, it does. It, it does happen. And when you're testing the work, you're not testing, is it funny or not, you're testing whether the audience is going to engage with it, find it memorable, and it's going to make them feel something that makes them wanna buy your brand. The humor is the means to the end. It's not an end in itself, but yeah, it does, it does happen where somebody's like, ah, it's just not funny. Uh, or it's not funny enough. You know, there are writers' rooms working on, on Seth Meyer's jokes every night. I mean, there's 10 people sitting around a table trying to come up with something funny for him to say, 'cause he's gotta be funny for an hour. And that's a lot of jokes that you need. So it takes a lot of creative minds to come up with them. Fortunately, we don't have to fill an hour usually, but it's still, it's still harder than, it's still harder than anybody imagines. And if you doubt that for a second, just try and write something funny yourself. Just try and write even when you know the format, try and write a Snickers commercial. Try and try and write something funny for Snickers. It's, it's harder than anybody imagines.

Ilyse: (14:52)

Would you say there are some categories that lend themselves to humor more than others?

Andrew: (14:57)

I don't want to accept the principle that, that there are any categories in which it couldn't be used. I think companies and individuals may choose not to, but I, but I, I find it hard to believe that it, that it really couldn't be used.

Damian: (15:22)

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Jesse Poll, the head of brand and marketing for Major League Soccer.

Ilyse: (15:29)

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and Cat

Damian: (15:37)

Fessy. And remember,

Andrew: (15:39)

If you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more.

Damian: (15:53)

And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien and

Ilyse: (16:05)

I'm Elise.

Damian: (16:06)

And we'll see you next time.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

As the presidential race picks up momentum, The Current Podcast explores what a political campaigner and a CPG brand marketer can learn from each other. Kyle Yadon-Smith, (the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee), and Vinny Rinaldi, (the head of media and analytics for The Hershey Company), get candid about marketing politics and chocolate. 

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian Fowler: (00:01)

I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

Damian Fowler: (00:10)

This week we are queuing up a great conversation between two advertisers who may not on first glance seem to have that much in common. We're joined by Vinnie Ranaldi, the head of media and analytics at the Hershey Company, and Kyle Yadon-Smith, the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. That said, we thought it would be fascinating to hear what a big CPG brand like Hershey can learn from a major political advertiser like the NRSC. And since this is an election year, what better time to host this conversation. It's been said that every great political campaign rewrites the rules at the same time, CPG brands can now supercharge campaigns with retail data. With all that in mind, let's get to it. Both of you, of course, are focused on reaching those respective audiences, whether you call 'em consumers or voters. I'd love to hear from both of you, you know, on what you think you may have in common.

Kyle Smith: (01:09)

I was gonna joke, the uh, the biggest thing is, uh, we're both targeting, so we're women I think is our key marketplace. the cycle . Um, obviously that's not the only, uh, demographic that's gonna be key on the political landscape, but, uh, we're gonna be running ads in October and so we're gonna screw up your Halloween marketing. Thankfully you guys do not have a, uh, Georgia runoff this year, so it should be okay by Christmas. And uh, yeah, I think we're gonna be targeting a lot of the same consumers slash uh, voter demographics. So it's kind of, it's, it's interesting how that kind of plays out. Yeah,

Vinny Rinaldi: (01:36)

I would agree. I think there's more correlation. I think, you know, we're looking at the same content areas to show up in as a brand to sell chocolate as you guys are, to show up and influence somebody to devote one way or the other in those big environments. You know, a lot of how we look to show up is how do we drive seasonality in local markets at a certain store? So you're right in October, believe me, it's probably hot topic number one of like the lead up to our Super Bowl October 31st. There's a serious presidential election happening a week later. Yeah. So how much will that play a role when we're buying, you know, market-based ads? So it is an area, I wouldn't say of concern, but an area that we're certainly focused on of like how do we make sure we're showing up in the right markets during our most precious time of year, but being cognizant of some of the headwinds we might face based on what's happening in real time.

Damian Fowler: (02:28)

It's interesting, you know, you're sort of talking in a way about competition between say chocolate and political campaigns, but on the other hand there's a sort,

Kyle Smith: (02:35)

I think we would lose that one if you had to vote on one or the other. .

Damian Fowler: (02:39)

I mean, of course there's an alignment too. I mean maybe you guys can, you know, get together and cross-reference here.

Vinny Rinaldi: (02:45)

I mean, I joke as we look at all of the debates leading up to it and one of our products is popcorn. How do we show up and say, get your popcorn ready for all these new events that are happening. So can you bridge that gap and kind of work together? There's a lot of areas of, of

Kyle Smith: (02:58)

Interest. Politics is pop culture now, right? Yeah. Like I'll never forget, one of the funniest ads I saw was, I think it was Advil, they bought the promoted tweet on the first day of the debate in 2016 and it said, do you have a headache from this debate, you know, by Advil? And I thought that was kind of a fun way to play into it.

Damian Fowler: (03:12)

What's interesting to me is, you know, in looking at say any given political campaign, how the importance of being reactive in the moment kind of real time is so crucial, you know, for getting those swing voters out to either vote or just to nudge the needle a little bit. And I'm wondering, you know, if that idea of the sped up data-driven campaign is obviously influencing the way CPG brands like Hershey think about campaigns,

Vinny Rinaldi: (03:38)

I think we certainly use data-driven tactics in a very similar way. And you think back to the last, I guess it's 16 years since the 2008 election, which is crazy during that election when, when President Obama won, you know, it goes a little unnoticed of how he won the tactics he used, which were way ahead of his time in a lot of this, using the data, focusing on different demographic urban environments, getting those people to the polling centers, like we're trying to do the same thing during, whether it's a big season or to dry everyday occurrences, like how do you find those pockets of incremental opportunities to grow from the beast that's already there is very correlated to from when President Obama did it to President Trump doing it in 2016 and really becoming a more data-driven tactic on how you show up in those moments.

Kyle Smith: (04:26)

I mean, it's kind of funny, both Obama in 2012 and uh, president Trump in uh, 2016 both had a actually almost similar data strategy. They're both very digital heavy in from a percentage perspective for their time. And then of course nowadays we actually can't use that data on quite a few platforms. So data's extremely important in the political space. Obviously there's, uh, 60% of Americans over the age of 18 are gonna vote this cycle and a lot of those folks are gonna vote for the same party they've always voted for. And identifying people that, you know, swing back and forth is the key to winning, obviously. And that coalition changes every cycle. For us, it's leveraging the data to inform what that audience looks like so that we can make tactical data-driven decisions, even on platforms that don't let us use it directly of which, you know, is the bulk of the ecosystem at this point. It's

Vinny Rinaldi: (05:08)

An interesting point. Like we as a big massive consumer packaged goods brand that sells chocolate, has no first party data. We have to talk to everybody. Literally 98% of the um, US population eats candy mint or gum. So for us it's like how do you balance, you want scalability no matter what, but what are the right insights and data points that you utilize when you go to activation? Because if you're trying to find one-to-one in any second and or third party data partnerships in some platforms, not all, you're losing the findability due to some of the privacy regulations that are coming up. So if you don't own the data asset itself in a first party ecosystem, it's a lot harder to deliver that experience. And it's also a lot harder to collect first party data when you're a brand that everyone else sells your product. You're just driving demand through advertising and awareness and driving people to the store. But from a D two C perspective where a lot of that collection can happen, it's a little bit more of a challenge on our end to be able to sell chocolate and collect a data 0.0 for those people.

Damian Fowler: (06:08)

What's interesting to me about this is according to a study by the Trade Desk with Morning Consult during the 2022 midterms, 75% of all Americans surveyed who say they might vote in the midterms, say they know who they're gonna vote for. So I don't know from a political standpoint, do you market to those people or is marketing always at the margins? You know, are you always trying to reach out to that undecided voter? And I wonder if that carries over into CPG thinking as well.

Kyle Smith: (06:33)

I actually think this may be a space where things are more similar than they are different. You know, if you've bought Hershey Kisses every year for Christmas and you, your family's always done that and you always, you know, put that in the stalking, you're probably gonna continue to do it until something shifts or something changes. There's pretty high retention, right? In terms of Republicans from 2016 are very likely to be Republicans again, 2024. But things do change, you know, the people will always tell you, they say they know who they're gonna vote for today, but then there could be a new story that drops at some point next year that scrambles everything. You know, it changes people's opinions on issues, it changes how people think about things and we have to react very, very quickly to that and make sure that, you know, if the story's good for us, that everyone knows about it or if the story's bad for us, that we have our point of view out there to, to kind of counter what the information is. It's kind of hard to expect who those people are gonna be or what's gonna trigger that. So I think that kind of leads to the importance of talking to everyone and making sure that you kind of have a broad message out there. But we also know our folks that are, you know, Republican donors donate or vote in every single election that are probably on our team. So it's kind of just, uh, doing a little bit of both.

Vinny Rinaldi: (07:30)

Yeah, you look at Reese's Peanut butter cups, they have a 64% household penetration. I'm not sure there's any single brand out there that comes as close. So if you think about it, you, you're almost everywhere. So you're constantly speaking to everybody and hoping, you know, in those moments you're getting that incremental gain for a new household conversion and or, or repeat purchaser. So you do want to talk to both. You're also looking at probably one of the more impulsive categories in the world. Chocolate is a grab and go. You're at the counters, you're just grabbing, you don't plan it. So you always have to be, broadly speaking, making everyone aware of subtly nudging that reminder message to almost everybody.

Damian Fowler: (08:08)

Given that then, you know, does that mean a lot of your campaigns tend to be about, you know, just brand awareness kind of up there at the top of the funnel? And then how do you use channels to nudge the consumer? How, how does that work? ,

Vinny Rinaldi: (08:22)

In very basic theory, yes, we are a very big awareness brand messaging strategy to have fun. You know, we lean heavily on the voice of Will Arnett, which is the voice behind the Reese's commercials. So like, it is that probably where, but then you have, whether it's a limited edition or a seasonal environment or some other area where you wanna be a little bit more focused, where you would lean into some sort of targeting capability, whether it's a retail based target, third party, purchase based target. How do you use all those levers to take some of the spend and be focused while the majority of your base spend is reaching that broad awareness of the entire population?

Kyle Smith: (09:00)

Yeah, I think that's where, you know, I'm a little bit jealous of Hershey's and you have all this institutional brand ID and I'm, we're jealous of the starting point, especially, you know, I'm working on the, I'm working on senate campaigns this cycle. The NRC, we only have really two incumbents, meaning like people that are already senators running for reelection, again, Ted Cruz and uh, Rick Scott in Florida, they kind of have a really strong starting point they can focus on more, just reminding folks that kinda like you, I feel like you guys do every site or every year we're Hershey's, we're Reese's also. I'm jealous you get will learn that, but we're we're, we're Reese's what we are, et cetera. But then on our side we have a separate project of a lot of new candidates that no one's ever heard of that frankly haven't held elected office. And you have a year and you know, three or four months to make their name Id as close to a hundred percent with the voter base as you can. If uh, Trump were president it was 2020 and everyone kind of knows who these guys are. It is kind of more similar I think to the annual, uh, yeah, candy marketing. But this, this year it's uh, we have to start from scratch. It's like you guys introducing a new brand, I feel like, or a new skew of, uh, of, you know, Hershey's, Reese's, et cetera.

Vinny Rinaldi: (10:00)

We just launched uh, Reese's Caramel Cups and it is like launching a completely new thing even though it's part of the Reese's family. Yes, you're gonna have those loyalists try your new product, but can you attract new consumers into an already built brand because of a new introduction of caramel into a peanut butter cup? You have to find those new pockets of opportunity to not lose your base or not have them switch completely and keep that cycle growing with new consumers.

Damian Fowler: (10:26)

One of the things that's happened, uh, in the last couple of years, we talked about, you know, what happened in the last four years is the kind of rise of, there's much more inventory out there for streaming platforms, connected television, and that connecting the dots up with, you know, other channels. I wonder if you could both sort of talk me through a little bit of how that, the maturing as it were of CTV has changed the way you go to market and think about connecting up big awareness plays on CTV to, you know, lower down the funnel to more performance driven tactics.

Vinny Rinaldi: (10:56)

You know, as I go back to what I said earlier, the proliferation of content everywhere has certainly opened up the purview of how to show up, how to be everywhere. You know, for me, when I think about the connected TV landscape, what I love about it is the ability to buy prime time at any time. When you sit down at eight o'clock or nine o'clock or 12 o'clock or 3:00 PM it doesn't matter. You're accessing whatever content you wanna watch in that moment. So in my opinion, when you buy this way, you've got primetime moments at all times. That person is decided they're gonna sit down, they're gonna, you know, watch whatever it is that they wanna watch at that given moment.

Vinny Rinaldi: (11:47)

And that's your moment as a brand to show up and that's how we look at it. And then when you take that holistic approach to those primetime moments, how do you then use the controllability of technology to control, reach and frequency? So if I know that I'm talking to this person in 12 different platforms, well I don't want my frequency to be a 40 on one of 'em. I want to control that and keep extending reach. If I get enough reach, my household penetration should go up. If that goes up, my sales are going up, we're winning share, we're reaching more consumers, like that's our end goal. So being in as many homes as possible is actually impossible if you're buying on 40 different IOs or platforms. So then when you think about consolidation and the value of bringing somebody from an awareness building tactic and streaming or on the big screen all the way through a funnel and having that control allows me to unlock more business outcomes than any media measurement can give me.

Damian Fowler: (12:42)

I'm wondering if what the equivalent of business outcomes are in the political ad marketplace.

Kyle Smith: (12:48)

Um, well if we win.

Damian Fowler: (12:51)

I thought you were gonna say that. 

Kyle Smith: (12:52)

Yeah, I, I , I think, uh, I actually think this is where also uh, you know, the candy and CPG world in general is, it's pretty similar to political land is um, our outcomes also a little bit impulsive. I remember standing in line, you know, to vote for the DC City Council with a few of my coworkers before and we were all talking like, who are these people? , you know, it's like we don't know who anyone we're voting for. It's kind of funny. And then you kind of re look at 'em real quick. You remember like stuff you've heard or mailers you've gotten and you make a decision that you have one day to do that or one month to do that. And that's our moment. That's when you get your conversion. That's kind of how I'd compare the two there. I think from a high level perspective, we have the exact same problem in politics, especially with linear, where we have very high frequencies against some audiences sometimes.

Kyle Smith: (13:28)

And when you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you're, you have less money then to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers. So having an ever-present point of view across not just linear but also digital, I think that's something that our party especially is gonna try to get a lot better at this cycle. It, it's interesting to me that 20 12, 20 16, I think, and Vinny told me if this is wrong, I think the corporate world almost looked at politics and was like, wow, they're doing some really cool stuff. We have to figure out what they're doing. I think that's kind of taken a step back a little bit now that we've gotten into the, you know, we have to target older Americans 'cause older Americans are more likely to vote. And I think now as older Americans, habits have changed quite a bit from 2020 to 2024, it's forced both political parties to kind of adapt a little bit after frankly the corporate world has uh, to what the new landscape looks like.

Damian Fowler: (14:11)

You know, speaking of different audiences, are there different channels for different audiences? Kyle, when you said, you know, reaching older Americans or all older voters, I'm wondering if that's still like a linear play now or if that's completely, am I just stereotyping a whole demographic?

Kyle Smith: (14:26)

Yeah, well I watch Wheel of Fortune every other night, so I, I maybe I, maybe I'm breaking the demographic there. . Yeah, I, I think linear is still the utmost effective mass reach, uh, mechanism for folks 55 plus, especially broadcast. It's pretty easy to get over 75% reach across that audience, uh, with a couple of weeks of linear buys. What I will say though is even older users are starting to shift pretty substantially. Especially, you know, in the last couple of years when I used to do my YouTube pitches, I always told, told the story of my father-in-Law who is a huge Elon Musk fan and watches a lot of documentaries about him on YouTube. And I would walk down one day and he's like an hour or two of this documentary that some college kid put together about, about how he's making rockets or whatever. They do a penetration across all the different age groups. And I do think that we're gonna continue to see a shift away, especially from cable time spent on cable and towards the streaming services, whether it's YouTube or or more of the down funnel services

Vinny Rinaldi: (15:15)

As I stated earlier. You know, we reach everybody with a mouth. So every demographic needs to play a role in our media, both strategy spend, investment strategy, that's everything. Kyle, you kinda hit the nail on the head. It's what's happening between those environments is what's the shift what we're seeing. And I think the industry's seeing more and more, if you remove live news and sports from linear consumption, you're gonna see a drastic drop off in actual consumption habits. But you know, when you think about the purchase power right now, it shifted a little bit into the millennial group who are the bigger purchases, which is 71 million US people. We talk about Gen Z a lot. It's like, oh, they're the up and comers, they're people we have to talk to, but they're, you know, the people we don't have to spend that much time on, they're 68 million of them. So they're almost equivalent to a millennial generation. So we're gonna just wait for them to become purchasers. And I think that's a miss. So you've gotta show up in the moments or platforms that those consumption habits are happening by demo and then show up authentically to that audience so it's not, forget about one versus the other. It's how do you repeat the holistic picture across every platform and then deliver a communication strategy that resonates with those different audience groups. That's how we're working towards showing up across every platform.

Kyle Smith: (16:34)

And that's what's, that's so interesting to me. It's like the purchasing power in our world is a little bit different. You know, like in terms of voter people that actually vote, well one kids under the age of 18 cannot vote. So there's zero purchasing power. And I, I know that, I mean at least when I was in marketing school they, they taught us about how kids do have purchasing power, uh, when it comes to telling their parents

Vinny Rinaldi: (16:51)

They have influencing purchasing power

Kyle Smith: (16:54)

But in our world, you know, the, if you look at the millennial generation, you have a much higher voting percentage than it was 10 years ago. But it's still not anything close to 55 plus glad that we have the purchasing power in the millennial generation now though.

Vinny Rinaldi: (17:06)

I think it's that 13 to 18 group that's so key for us. As I said, the influencing power, everything, especially in our category, has become on demand. So I have the ability at 13 to use mom and dad's credit card tied to a DoorDash account and I'm gonna gain for the next five hours and I'm gonna order a bunch of things from seven 11 as we move into the future, five to 10 years from now, most of that generation will become now the voters but they don't wanna leave their house or they don't wanna go outta their way to go do something 'cause everything has come so easy to them by using a phone. How does the voter landscape change from either written ballots or in person to a truly secure ability to vote and get more buy-in into voting for a generation that is very used to just opening something up and hitting a button

Damian Fowler: (17:59)

We're throwing to the future here. Yeah, I mean Kyle, I dunno, what do you think, uh, do you think we're gonna get to that point?

Kyle Smith: (18:04)

I think Covid kind of changed the voting rules in a lot of states that make it easier to vote. I don't know if we'll ever get to the instant gratification level until, you know, maybe 50, a hundred years from now when we're voting on a blockchain and you get a vote coin and you spend it somewhere or something like that. So the convenience factor matters a lot and then it changes by state and almost by locality, right? If you live in a rural area and it's hard for you to get to the polling place 'cause it's a 10 mile drive versus it being half a mile down the street when you're dropping off your kids to school, that could make a difference as well. So it really just depends.

Vinny Rinaldi: (18:35)

I think that's really interesting because each state is adopting their own voter rules sounds very similar to each state adopting their own data privacy rules instead of thinking of a national basis and actually simplifying the ease for everyday people to utilize something. It's fascinating that we all continue to live by state, by state governed rules that are drastically different than just a national governing body to allow us to have a centralized ruling system to use, whether it's data privacy or voter rights. It's just, it's funny to watch that correlation between our two worlds.

Kyle Smith: (19:09)

Even sugar taxes, you know, some of the cities, I don't think it's gone after candy quite yet. True. But the uh, you know the Bloomberg rules around like the taxing soda and stuff and I think Philadelphia did it and then the sales increased outside of the Philadelphia like urban area like substantially for all those stores because you're able to get cheaper stuff. But that's interesting.

Damian Fowler: (19:26)

Kyle, you mentioned harder to reach audiences and I want to ask both of you, you know about that and how the programmatic marketplace makes it possible to reach those harder to reach audiences. I know at the top we joked about suburban housewives but you know, how granular can you get,

Kyle Smith: (19:43)

What is it 95% of people watch video whether it's linear or digital. So that does get you to a pretty high threshold the way I approach it. Like we have to deliver messages very quickly, right? So that's why I think you see political really lean into linear a lot 'cause you could get that mass reach in a day if you're buying the football games. Like if you're buying, you know, primetime on across all the all four networks and you have a presence there, you're gonna get to 50% reach pretty quickly. I think the hard part is honestly the other 50% on CTV and making sure that you're distributing that message to the person the one day a week they happen to be watching ad supported Hulu and they're not watching Netflix for example. That's where it gets more difficult. Having the centralized approach, making sure that you're maxing out the non-linear household reach if you're already buying a lot of linear is, is the hardest and most important thing that we have to do. We'll have maybe eight to 10 messages per candidate that we run and we want all eight to 10 of those messages to be seen by as many people as possible and we don't have as much time. I wish I had, you know, one or two month long campaigns that I could run behind these things to get that reach number, the incremental reach as high as we possibly can. But in reality it's, it's seven to 10 days. We just have to maximize that

Vinny Rinaldi: (20:46)

For Reeces. Again, reach everybody, everybody with a mouth, everybody wants to buy a Reeces, great. But then I go again down the portfolio, you've got variety brands in York peppermint patties, almond Joy, mounds. And so like how do you take those with much less spending power and find those pockets of opportunity? You know, for your, give you an example for York, one of the really cool unlocks we found was the snowbird effect sales actually increased 'cause York leans very heavily 55 plus really 65 plus and you see Northeast sales in the summer skew higher and then southeast sales skew higher in the winter and you're seeing the people as they move the consumer habits follow with them. So how do you heavy up in those markets during the seasons? So when you don't have a large bucket of money to go spend as a brand, you use data and insights in that way to be like really targeted hyper-focused on winning those key occasions for that consumer. Because again, at the end of the day you can only stretch a budget so far if you want to grow a business.

Damian Fowler: (21:51)

Fascinating that. So just to wrap it up, I guess I wanna ask each of you one question, you know the same question Kyle, what do you wish you could take from CPG land and Vinny, what do you wish you could take from political?

Kyle Smith: (22:03)

For me it'd be like two things. Like I think the permanence of the institutions. You know, you have the same kind of folks that'll work in marketing, the same agencies that run things for years, if not decades. Sometimes that makes it so that you have a lot of like earned experience and a lot of, you've gone through all this several times, you know what works, what, what doesn't. And I think kind of an informed approach every time politics is, you know, you have to start from the bottom and you build something up and then election day happens and that institution basically doesn't exist anymore and you have to start all over again for the next two years. So that'd be the first thing. And I think with that comes the advantages of being able to have more predictability. We don't have a ton of predictability in politics.

Kyle Smith: (22:37)

It's tough to know what my budget's gonna be. It's really tough for me to know what the news cycles are gonna look like next year without kind of that knowledge going in without knowing how much money you have, it makes it harder to do long-term planning. That's where I'm a little bit jealous of CPG land kind of wish, you know, knowing what your budget is a year and a half out I think would be awesome in our world if we were able to say that with certainty. But you know, it makes us scrappy and it makes it so that sometimes it's better than you expect and you get to have fun with it and sometimes it's a little bit worse and you just have to be smarter than the other guy.

Vinny Rinaldi: (23:02)

I would say almost the opposite in a way because I feel the marriage of branding and performance is so important to not separate the two, but to bring them together and the agility that the political landscape moves with is actually a blessing in disguise. Pricing aside the hyper target ability, the ability to show value really quickly is something that we lack because we don't own the end game. So like there, there's a part of that that's like, okay, well if you can be that hyper-focused and get a really quick outcome, how do you build that into a small percentage of your spending in the overall portfolio to be super agile, super hyper targeted, really focused on market analysis and then correlated to sales or in your case outcomes from an election. That to me is super exciting. It's something that we sometimes strive to do. You know, we used to have this motto that we're still trying to build out, but like, act like a CPG, think like a D to C, we don't own the end game, but how do you think really agile but come with the power of being a CPG. So I think what you bring to the table from a political landscape gives us just a little bit there to think about of like being super fast, nimble, and agile in a marketplace that changes so fast.

Damian Fowler: (24:17)

And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce. And remember,

Kyle Smith: (24:30)

If you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you have less money than to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers.

Vinny Rinaldi: (24:37)

Act like a CPG, think like a D to C.

Damian Fowler: (24:40)

And if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damian and we'll see you next time.

Dive into more insights and inspiration from leaders in ad tech: https://www.thecurrent.com/

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Barbara Shipley, senior VP of brand integration at AARP, discusses on The Current Podcast the risk of perpetuating myths associated with older generations.  

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

DAMIAN (00:01):

I'm Damian Fowler.

ILYSE (00:02):

And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

DAMIAN (00:04):

And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.

ILYSE (00:10):

This week we sit down with Barbara Shipley, the senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. The

DAMIAN (00:17):

A A RP is the nation's largest non-profit nonpartisan organization, which is in its own words, dedicated to empowering Americans 50 and older to live their best lives. It's taken great pains to assure people that it's not about silver haired grannies and granddads

ILYSE (00:33):

To be sure it's building on a tremendous legacy that started back in 1958. But as the perception of aging has changed in that time, so has the organization and its messaging. The A A RP is on a mission to debunk the myths about growing old. One of the ways it's doing this is by investing heavily in digital marketing in a world focused on youth. Barbara talks to us about what's unique about the A A RP demographic,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (01:04):

So we totally understand why people have a focus on Gen Z millennials. Um, let's be honest, there's definitely an obsession with youth, not just in this country, but all around the world. I think what's important for people to remember is not to put generations against each other, but to recognize where the customer base could be and potentially take age out of the equation for just a second, think about what your brand is, what your marketing, what your bottom line is, and then who makes the most sense? And in most cases, your marketing team, your brand team, your strategy team is going to zero in on people, 50 plus, they don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging, is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.

ILYSE (02:22):

Just how big is that spending power, I guess, of that demographic? And then basically, how should brands think about this audience?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (02:30):

In the US alone, you've got 110 million people over 50, and the fastest growing audience is people over 85. So that is something to celebrate. Now, in a youth, and you could say youth obsessed, but in a youth focused environment, it's hard to pull people's attention over to the power of the 50 plus audience. But when we talk to brands and marketers in the industry and say, $8.6 trillion, they stop and listen, that's a lot, that contribution that the 50 plus in the US alone makes to the US economy each year.

ILYSE (03:15):

Now, the A A RP was founded 65 years ago in 1958. How has your organization changed to reflect the values and the needs of the demographic that you now serve?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (03:27):

The biggest way a A RP has changed is we are still extremely proud and focused of the, on the work that we do to help retired senior citizens, but that is not all we do. So if you think about an organization that is focused primarily on the 50 plus their families and their communities, how many 50-year-old people do you know that are retired right now or even thinking about retirement, they may be planning for it. I have to say I hope they are, because if you're not planning for it by the time you're 50, that's gonna be a challenge. But retirement could be 20 years away. And so A A RP has adapted it's content, it's programs, it's services, it's products, it's community outreach, it's volunteers to really address the way people are aging today, not just the way they aged when their parents or grandparents were going through their lives.

DAMIAN (04:26):

In addition to changing the programming that you have, um, how has the narrative changed in terms of your marketing, in terms of your campaigns? Now, I know you work with BBDO to create this new narrative. Could you address that a little bit? So

BARBARA SHIPLEY (04:39):

This longevity message that I was just talking about is really important and it, and it really became one of the big insights to this new narrative, as you say. So if you could spend or live half your life after 50, you want to make sure that your money, your health, and your happiness live as long as you do. It starts to capture in a really concrete way. Our role, the AARP's role, is as a wise friend and a fierce defender, we are uniquely equipped to help you make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. And the reason why it works so well as a marketing campaign is because of what I call the rug pull at the end, which is in fact, the younger you are, the more you need A A RP. And that has stopping power and gets people's attention because it is not easy to make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. But we are here to help you do that.

DAMIAN (05:44):

It's interesting here, you talk about this because that line in the sand of retirement, sort of mid sixties, uh, has always been there and as sort of as a sort of psychological threshold. And, and that's clearly changing, you know, not just in the United States, but everywhere around the world. And I know that one of the important focuses for you has been around the importance of work and not just work for people, you know, under 65. It's not about retirement anymore, is it?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (06:09):

So you're right, it's not about the traditional old book of retirement. So work has become one of the biggest areas for A A RP. And it, it, it's interesting when you see it at first, people can be a little bit surprised. Wait a minute, I thought you were about retirement. And very quickly they get to that moment where of course you're not just going to help me in my retirement years, you are going to help me in my working years as well. And we do have to be honest here, there's a lot of ageism in the workplace. There's age discrimination, which is even a more deeper legal issue. If you're over 50 and you need to work and you're outta work, it's a daunting task just to get an interview. So what we do is work with the environment that you're trying to succeed in, not just help you with your resume, which we do provide you a network, which we do connect you to a job board, which we do. But we are also communicating to the HR industry, hiring managers sectors, the creative industry to push and help people understand the power of the multi-generational workforce. There is so much power in the multi-generational workforce. The work is better, the experience is better, the culture is stronger, the learnings never end and it goes every which way. And that's why I'm so passionate about the multi-generational workforce, specifically in the creative industry and how powerful that can be for business outcomes for your clients and for the culture of your agency.

ILYSE (07:50):

Yeah, and definitely there is an ageism issue in America and not even to mention the marketing industry. Could you describe some of those like stereotypes and misperceptions that do show up in media and we, we still see,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (08:05):

On the one hand, if you're thinking about hiring an older person, a little bit different than you just asked, but if you're thinking about hiring an older person, the myth associated with that is they can't use technology. They're slow, they're always gonna call in sick. They're not really looking to work here for a long time. They're just marking time until they retire. False, false, false and false. This is a group of people who largely have accumulated so much experience and so much wisdom that they are going to right the ship when there is some kind of a crisis in the workplace, they are going to be the steady hand. They can be, um, a receptacle for learning, for teaching, for sharing. There are lots of things that people learn how to do. So there are some opportunities for learning, but let's create those opportunities so that we can get the benefits of people in the workplace.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (09:05):

In marketing. We still see brands, brands are really starting to get it right. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We're gonna take some credit for that, but we won't take all that credit. I think part of it is because a lot of creative directors at your agencies, they're turning 50 and they want to be relevant. They know their life experience and their talent is relevant. And I think that's part of where the new narrative in a lot of these ads is coming from. They're also, I think, looking at the realities of aging. They're looking at the research, the data, and they're seeing that people are developing their own stories, their own timelines. pe half of people in America that are 65 to today are still working. So to tell a story in an ad of people in their sixties with sort of blank stares, fumbling around technology, doddering fools only vulnerable, wearing beige does not tell the story of how people are actually living their lives today.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (10:09):

Now watch an ad for a restaurant, the older people, I bet you are background, that's not how it actually is, but that's how the ad portrays it because the younger hipper people are in the front, they are your OCPs. So let's get it actually the way it is because the danger of perpetuating these myths is twofold. One, your prime audience that has all the spending power is feeling ignored or insulted by your brand. And two younger people who come in contact with your work fear aging, that's a societal problem. And I would ask you and all of your listeners to answer the question, what's the alternative to aging? Everybody wants to age their way, which is why our mission is to empower people to choose how they live as they age.

ILYSE (11:10):

Now, are there any specific tools that A A RP turns to, um, to kind of bust some of those myths around those stereotypes?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (11:19):

So that's a great question because the tools and the concrete, um, opportunities are the best way to educate and change the environment. And I am so proud of the work that we launched about five years ago in a very special partnership with Getty Images. We have introduced a signature collection on Getty images that has grown to tens of thousands of images called Disrupt Aging. And the goal of disrupt aging is to, through imagery tell the more current contemporary real and varied stories associated with how people age. You see multi-generational images, you see images of people at work, you see images of people at play. They are not overly photoshopped, they are not overly beautiful. They are very real and it makes a huge difference. And to me, one of the most exciting things that I didn't even anticipate when we built this is the search techniques that we have introduced.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (12:22):

Instead of agencies searching for old people on the beach, we now are shifting the, the search, which means the input is changing. And the models are also really shifting how we think about the imagery that captures today's realities of aging. So the Getty images work is pretty radical. And then we also have all of the data from the usage that shows us what people are gravitating to and what they need. So it can be a very responsive tool, but it isn't enough. We need more tools in our industry and I recognize that I grew up in this industry, I grew up in the agency world. I know what it's like. The big problem I have with where our industry is right now is stop making assumptions about me because you know one thing about me, which is my age, nobody wants that. So this is what we need to break ourselves out of and stop putting everything through an age lens, which may it sound funny coming from an organization that is about aging, but it's about the freedom to choose how you live as you age and not be put into a box or a category or segment because of one data point.

ILYSE (13:41):

Now there's no doubt a lot of brands are getting it wrong still, but are there any brands that are doing it right?

BARBARA SHIPLEY (13:48):

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you one example, which is Hyundai. And the story is taking the daughter to college and they're driving. So the Hyundai is the vehicle, and by the end of the ad you realize the daughter is dropping the father off at college, and you just have you, you're seized in this moment. I would say there's another narrative coming out of an interesting brand, which is indeed and uh, you see a story of, you know, the the sort of quintessential man carrying the box with stuff in it, which your mo your brain says to you, he's leaving the job, he's been fired, he's retiring. But what you realize by the end of the ad is he's a new hire and he's in his fifties and people couldn't be happier that he's there and he's happy that he's there and it's the new beginning instead of an ending. And that just captures everything about what this audience is actually going through. They aren't just nice stories, they're real

DAMIAN (14:49):

Speaking of perception. And I know that you have the A A RP magazine, which I understand is the world's largest circulation magazine, which has more than 47 million readers and across a broad age range, it goes back to that multi-generational approach that you've been talking about. You know, how does the magazine as it were, fit into the whole, you know, tapestry of everything that you're doing in terms of your marketing efforts and the perception

BARBARA SHIPLEY (15:13):

A A RP the magazine is one of the most exciting things we have. It's a lifestyle magazine uniquely focused on interests, needs, topics that the 50 plus, now that's a huge group of people, right? There is almost no such thing as a 50 plus segment. So we have a lot of elasticity in the A A RP magazine, you'll see a lot of health topics, you'll see a lot of sex topics, you'll see a lot of travel topics, friends, um, empty nest. There's so much that we are able to cover, but we do it with a really deaf hand. There's so much soul in the way we cover these topics and the way we do interviews with the a a-listers that really wanna be on the cover of the magazine. Um, over the years, uh, we've had actors, actresses, uh, musicians, uh, Michael J. Fox, lady Gaga, Henry Winkler was on the last issue. People don't throw it away, it's a keeper.

DAMIAN (16:16):

That is an interesting way of kind of gauging one's own aging in a way, in relation to these pop culture people that you've grown up with

BARBARA SHIPLEY (16:25):

Because these people are still relevant. That makes me still relevant. That makes you still relevant, not some memory of who we once were. This isn't just a group that likes nostalgia either. This is a group of taste makers. You are probably a taste maker. I'm gonna bet. And so you like new music, you like exploring new artists and a A RP sponsors a lot of music. We do a lot of virtual concerts. We do a lot of in-person concerts. We were a huge part of celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip hop. And I think that's why people recognize what we are bringing to the table. We don't just want to sit around and remember, but it's about where are we going

ILYSE (17:06):

Now, speaking about being like taste makers, A lot of people might be surprised to hear that you guys are so into social media. So curious about your approach there and and why it's an important platform to be on. Yeah,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (17:22):

We're very big on Facebook. Facebook is important to us, but so is TikTok. So is Instagram. I don't know anybody that really only lives on one social media platform. They go to different social media platforms for different things. And so we show up differently depending on where their mindset may be, their needs are. Our presence on TikTok is a little bit of an alter ego for a a RP. It's an opportunity for us to bring a, a different part of our personality to bear because that's what the users of TikTok are doing. Same thing with Instagram. We have really dedicated our presence on Instagram to capturing and telling and celebrating the story of Gen X in all its glory. It's all its craziness, all its forgottenness. You know, we used to call this the sandwich generation, right? You used to hear that phrase about people who are caring for aging parents and raising their young children, and they're sort of sandwiched in between.

BARBARA SHIPLEY (18:15):

We are concert goers and we are restaurant goers and we are travelers and we are caregivers. The average age of a caregiver is not a boomer or a Gen X, it's a millennial. And this is, this is a very big deal that people really need to recognize. And we are doing things that we never thought we would need to know how to do. And in many cases we need help. So there's, that's what I mean when I say that these are soulful stories. There is this isn't one dimensional or two dimensional. It's so multi-dimensional. And if people, marketers would just recognize that this 50 plus audience is basically giving everybody else a roadmap. Because what we are blazing, this is a trail, people will be going down basically if there's one message to leave here in terms of how our creative industry writ large reflects older segments, don't do it because it's charitable. Do it because it's good business. And oh, by the way, it's also a better way to engage with your audience and tell the truth versus be stuck in an old stereotype. This is a bottom line opportunity for agencies, brand managers to recognize who their audience is and engage them with their brand.

DAMIAN (19:44):

And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned and if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet.

ILYSE (19:59):

The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.

DAMIAN (20:07):

And remember,

BARBARA SHIPLEY (20:08):

They don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.

DAMIAN (20:32):

I'm Damian.

ILYSE (20:32):

And I'm Ilyse,

DAMIAN (20:33):

And we'll see you next time.

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