The Business of Art Podcast

The Business of Art Podcast

By Mark McKennaArtsVisual Arts
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The Business of Art Podcast episodes

  • Episode 12 - TJ Cunningham Interview

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art

     

    TJ’s Links

    https://www.cunninghamfineart.com

    https://www.instagram.com/tj.cunningham

     

    Summary

    In this episode, Mark interviews artist TJ Cunningham about his artistic journey. TJ shares how his passion for art began at a young age, with a pivotal moment being the sale of a sculpture at a diner that inspired him to pursue an art career. He discusses his college art studies, challenges faced in the art world, and his decision to leave galleries to build direct relationships with customers. Emphasizing the importance of treating customers like friends, TJ details his daily routine and creative process, highlighting plein air studies, Photoshop use, and the significance of strong design and accurate values in his realistic landscape paintings.

    TJ also talks about his mentors, teaching experiences, and the online community he created called The Art Journey. He underscores the value of learning from others, maintaining routines, and balancing family life with painting. Mark and TJ discuss how teaching adds meaning to their work and its financial benefits. They address the importance of connecting with other artists and offer advice to beginners: read business books, develop your craft, and recognize that painting requires hard work and practice. Focus on creating great work, continuously learning, and marketing your art without relying solely on galleries.


    Keywords

    artist journey, passion for art, selling art, leaving galleries, building customer relationships, daily routine, art process, landscape painting, plein air studies, reference photos, Photoshop, composition, design, values, visual flow, focal point

     

    Takeaways

    Believe in Yourself: Confidence in your abilities is crucial for success.

    Cultivate Customer Relationships: Building strong customer connections is essential for a thriving art business.

    Consistency and Dedication: Regularly creating art improves skills and leads to success.

    Daily Routine and Task Management: A structured routine helps manage various aspects of an art career.

    Independent Selling: Transitioning from galleries to direct sales gives artists more control over their business and customer relationships.

    Plein Air Studies: These are valuable for capturing the realism and feel of a landscape.

    Photoshop as a Tool: Useful for composing and manipulating reference photos.

    Strong Design and Accurate Values: Crucial for successful paintings.

    Visual Flow and Focal Points: Important for guiding the viewer's eye through the painting.

    Composition Principles: Using rules like the rule of thirds and the golden ratio enhances overall composition.

    Learn from Others: Gaining knowledge from other artists and mentors is valuable.

    Teaching: Adds meaning and fulfillment to an artist's work and can be financially beneficial.

    Balance and Routine: Important for managing family life and painting.

    Community Connection: Connect with other artists to combat loneliness.

    Business Knowledge: Read business books to understand the business side of art.

    Developing Skills: Painting is a skill that can be learned and improved.

    Focus on Great Work and Learning: Continuously create and learn.

    Selling Art: Focus on selling products, not time, and consider marketing and advertising independently.

    1 hr 47 min
  • Episode 11 - Frank Serrano Interview

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art

     

    Frank’s Links

    http://serranofineart.com/

    https://www.facebook.com/frank.serrano.18

    https://www.instagram.com/serranoartist/

     

    Summary

    Frank Serrano is a full-time artist with over 30 years of experience. Starting young, he studied business and initially owned a screen printing business, allowing him to pursue fine art part-time. Eventually, he transitioned to fine art full-time, joining art organizations and painting landscapes and seascapes, leading to his first gallery representation. Frank emphasized the importance of good work, confidence, inventory when approaching galleries, and marketing through social media.

    The conversation explores the shift in the art industry due to social media and online galleries. Frank shares his experience transitioning from traditional galleries to selling through his website and social media. He discusses the benefits and challenges of using social media for marketing and selling art, including posting high-quality work and engaging with potential buyers.

    Frank emphasizes the significance of plein air painting and the value of painting from life to develop artistic skills and capture nuances of color and atmosphere. He discusses his journey, including teaching, writing books, networking with other artists, and continually learning and improving.

    Frank shares his approach to painting, using a limited palette and focusing on values. He provides tips for plein air painting, such as staying compact and being prepared. He discusses the essentials of plein air painting, emphasizing simplicity and preparation, and the importance of capturing the scene quickly due to fleeting light.

    Frank talks about finding where Maynard Dixon painted and the challenges of plein air painting. He discusses the role of studies in his studio work for color and value reference and emphasizes craftsmanship and brushwork. He shares experiences of learning from artists like Richard Schmidt and Clyde Aspevig, and advice from his father and a collector about staying humble, putting work out there, and continuing to paint.

    Takeaways

    Frank Serrano has been a full-time artist for over 30 years.

    He transitioned from screen printing to pursuing fine art full-time.

    The importance of good work, confidence, and enough inventory when approaching galleries.

    Social media is significant for marketing oneself in today's art market.

    Social media has changed the dynamic of marketing and selling artwork, allowing artists to reach a wider audience and sell directly.

    Posting high-quality work and engaging with potential buyers on social media can lead to sales and opportunities.

    Plein air painting allows artists to capture the nuances of color and atmosphere from life.

    Developing a strong reputation in the art industry requires careful financial planning and strategic decision-making.

    Teaching workshops can provide additional income and opportunities for artists.

    Networking and continuous learning are important for growth.

    A limited palette simplifies color mixing and creates color harmonies.

    Values are crucial for successful painting.

    Staying compact with the right equipment is helpful for plein air painting.

    Preparing paints and materials before heading out saves time and allows for more effective work.

    Plein air studies can be used as references for color and value in studio work.

    Learning from other artists can greatly influence one's work.

    Meeting and connecting with other artists provide opportunities for growth and learning.

    Staying humble, putting work out there, and continuing to paint are important for artistic growth and success.


    Keywords

    Frank Serrano, full-time artist, artist journey, screen printing, fine art, landscape painting, seascape, gallery representation, art marketing, social media, art industry, online galleries, selling art, art gallery, plein air, oil painting, painting atmosphere, teaching art, writing books, networking, continuous learning, painting approach, limited palette


    1 hr 54 min
  • Episode 10 - Albin Veselka Interview

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art

     

    Albin’s Links

    https://albinveselka.com

    https://www.facebook.com/albin.veselka

    https://www.instagram.com/albin_veselka/

     

    Summary

    Albin Veselka, a full-time artist, shares his journey and the evolution of his work. He started drawing animals as a child and developed a fascination with creating images with lines. He initially focused on wildlife and predators but later shifted to figurative art. Over time, he realized the importance of storytelling in his work and the power of narrative. Albin emphasizes the value of support from his wife and the need to balance family responsibilities with pursuing his passion. He also discusses the shift away from dependence on photo references and the freedom to create without perfect reference material. The conversation explores the balance between realism and abstraction in painting. The speakers discuss the importance of understanding the fundamentals of art and the value of formal education in developing artistic skills. They emphasize the need for continuous learning and growth as an artist, using reference materials to supplement their work and fill in gaps. The conversation also touches on the joy of experimentation and the freedom to create unique and personal expressions in art. In this final part of the conversation, Albin discusses his process of creating artwork and shares advice on marketing and selling art. He emphasizes the importance of developing relationships with collectors and being genuine in interactions. Albin also encourages artists to work hard, learn from life, and focus on creating a product that excites them. He advises against stressing about the future and instead encourages artists to stay hopeful and keep moving forward.

     

    Takeaways

    The importance of support from loved ones in pursuing a career in art

     

    The evolution of Albin Veselka's work from wildlife to figurative art and storytelling

     

    The freedom of creating without perfect reference material

     

    The balance between family responsibilities and pursuing a passion Understanding the fundamentals of art is essential for artistic growth and development.

     

    Formal education in art can provide valuable knowledge and skills, but it is not the only path to becoming a successful artist.

     

    Continuous learning and experimentation are crucial for artists to develop their unique style and voice.

     

    Reference materials can be used to supplement and enhance artistic creations, filling in gaps and providing inspiration.

     

    The balance between realism and abstraction allows artists to create unique and personal expressions in their work. 

     

    Developing relationships with collectors is crucial for selling art

     

    Being genuine and treating people with respect can lead to meaningful connections

     

    Working hard, learning from life, and staying focused are key to success as an artist

     

    Don't stress about the future, stay hopeful and keep moving forward

     

    Keywords

    Albin Veselka, artist journey, wildlife art, figurative art, storytelling, photo references, realism, abstraction, painting, art fundamentals, formal art education, continuous learning, reference materials, artistic experimentation, art process, marketing art, selling art, developing relationships, learning from life

     

    1 hr 34 min
  • Episode 9 - Megan Wimberley Interview

    Join the Business of Art:

    https://thebusinessof-art.teachable.com/p/the-business-of-art
    Megan’s Links
    https://meganwimberley.com

    https://www.facebook.com/meganwimberleyfineart

    https://www.instagram.com/megan.wimberley/

    https://cowgirlartistsofamerica.org

    Summary
    Megan Wimberley, a contemporary Western and wildlife artist, shares her journey from growing up around horses to pursuing a career in art. She discusses her educational experiences, the impact of art education on her career, and her diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis. Megan emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries, managing stress, and being gentle with oneself. She also highlights the value of seeking support from therapists, faith communities, and art communities. The conversation covers the importance of mindfulness, self-care, and stress management for artists, as well as the mission of Cowgirl Artists of America to increase opportunities and representation for female Western artists. It also delves into the complexities of gender representation in the art world and the need for awareness and inclusivity. The conversation provides insights into the challenges faced by women artists and the impact of cultural biases on art representation. The conversation covers a wide range of topics, including advice for new artists, the importance of business procedures, the role of social media, pitfalls to avoid, and the balance between art and running an art business. The discussion also delves into the artist's approach to painting, the evolving process, and the challenges of finding balance and self-care. The conversation emphasizes the importance of mindfulness, seeking help from therapists or coaches, and the value of authenticity in sharing the struggles of the artistic journey.
    Takeaways
    Megan's journey from growing up around horses to pursuing a career in art
    The impact of art education on Megan's career and her approach to learning and experimentation
    Megan's experience with a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis and her holistic approach to health
    The importance of setting boundaries, managing stress, and seeking support from therapists, faith communities, and art communities Mindfulness and self-care are essential for artists to manage stress and maintain mental well-being.
    Cowgirl Artists of America aims to increase opportunities and representation for female Western artists, providing resources and a supportive community.
    The conversation highlights the complexities of gender representation in the art world and the need for awareness, inclusivity, and cultural sensitivity.
    Challenging biases and promoting inclusivity in the art community is crucial for creating a more diverse and representative space for artists of all backgrounds. The importance of doing the 'ugly work' before the 'pretty work' in art and the need for patience and dedication.
    The significance of setting up good business procedures, tracking inventory, and having systems of procedure in place for artists.
    The value of being gentle with oneself, taking time off, and seeking financial planning advice or mentorship.
    The role of social media in an artist's career, including the importance of thoughtful captions, showing personality, and maintaining a clear business focus.
    The challenges of finding balance between running an art business and pursuing the artistic process, and the importance of self-care and seeking help from therapists or coaches.

    1 hr 35 min
  • Episode 8 - Jennifer Gennari

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art

     

    SUMMARY

    Jennifer Gennari, a classically trained artist, shares her journey from childhood to becoming a renowned animal painter. Her passion for art began with Disney's 'The Little Mermaid,' leading her to pursue illustration at Ringling College. She later transitioned to painting and found her niche in animal portraits. Jennifer's routine, inspiration, and dedication to her craft are evident in her approach to painting and her commitment to capturing the essence of each animal. The conversation covers the process of creating art, the freedom to experiment, and the impact of traditional art education on artistic expression. It delves into the importance of breaking free from rigid rules and finding one's unique artistic voice. The conversation covers the importance of avoiding boredom in art, the impact of automation on creativity, strategies for staying fresh, and insights into the business side of art. Jennifer emphasizes the need for authenticity, patience, and a full life experience to fuel creativity.

     

    JENNIFER'S LINKS

    https://www.jennifergennari.com

    http://instagram.com/jen_art

    https://drawingamerica.com/instructors/gennari/

     

    TAKEAWAYS

    Jennifer's journey from childhood to becoming a renowned animal painter

    The impact of Disney's 'The Little Mermaid' on Jennifer's passion for art

    Jennifer's transition from illustration to painting and finding her niche in animal portraits

    The importance of routine, inspiration, and dedication in Jennifer's approach to painting

    Jennifer's commitment to capturing the essence of each animal in her portraits The process of creating art involves experimentation and finding one's unique approach.

    Traditional art education can influence an artist's mindset and approach to art.

    Breaking free from rigid rules and allowing oneself to experiment is essential for artistic growth and expression.

    Discovering and embracing one's unique artistic voice is a journey that continues throughout an artist's career. Avoiding boredom in art is crucial for maintaining creativity and freshness.

    Authenticity and a full life experience are essential for fueling creativity and maintaining artistic integrity.

    Patience is key in the journey of art, and understanding oneself is crucial for staying true to one's artistic vision.

    The business side of art requires a balance between financial considerations and artistic integrity, with a focus on authenticity and genuine passion for the work.

     

    KEYWORDS

    Jennifer Gennari, fine artist, animal painting, classical realism, art journey, art inspiration, dedication, art career, art process, artistic expression, traditional art education, artistic experimentation, artistic voice, art, creativity, artistic authenticity, art business, social media, painting commission, fine art, oil painting

     

    1 hr 44 min
  • Episode 7 - Krystii Melaine

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art


    KRYSTII'S LINKS

    https://krystiimelaine.com

    https://www.facebook.com/krystiimelainefineart

    https://instagram.com/https://www.instagram.com/krystii.melaine

     

    WORKSHOP AUGUST 2024

    https://boothmuseum.org/booth-art-academy/

     

    SUMMARY

    Krystii Melaine, an Australian-born wildlife and portrait artist, shares her journey from being a fashion designer to pursuing her lifelong passion for painting. She emphasizes the importance of building skills as an artist and finding one's own voice. Krystii discusses the challenges of being an artist and the need for constant improvement and reinvention. She advises aspiring artists to dedicate time to their craft, even if it's just small studies, and to be critical of their work. Krystii also talks about her recent shift in focus to painting large-scale canvases that reflect her own experiences and ideas. Krystii shares her experience of transitioning from wildlife art to creating large-scale Western art and abstracts. She discusses the importance of taking risks and following your artistic vision, even if it means going against the norm. Krystii also talks about the challenges faced by women artists in the industry and the need for women to be assertive and proactive in pursuing opportunities. She emphasizes the importance of being reliable, easy to work with, and treating art as a business. Overall, Krystii's journey serves as an inspiration for artists looking to push their boundaries and achieve success.

     

    TAKEAWAYS

    Build your skills as an artist and find your own voice

    Dedicate time to your craft and be critical of your work

    Constantly strive for improvement and reinvention

    Start small and gradually work your way up

    Paint what truly inspires you and reflects your own experiences

    Challenge yourself and don't be afraid to take risks 

    Take risks and follow your artistic vision, even if it means going against the norm.

    Women artists need to be assertive and proactive in pursuing opportunities.

    Be reliable, easy to work with, and treat art as a business.

    Networking and building relationships with other artists and galleries is crucial for success.

    Persistence and perseverance are key in the art world.

     

    KEY WORDS

    artist, painting, fashion designer, wildlife art, portrait art, traditional realism, art market, art, career transition, taking risks, artistic vision, Western art, abstract art, artist challenges, women artists, assertiveness, art opportunities, art business, artist entrepreneur 

    1 hr 16 min
  • Episode 6 - Richie Carter

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art


    RICHIE’S LINKS

    https://www.richiecarterfinearts.com https://www.instagram.com/richiecarterfinearts/ https://www.facebook.com/richard.d.carter.9


    BOOK REFERENCE

    “Steal Like an Artist” – by Austin Kleon


    SUMMARY

    Richie Carter, a young artist from Montana, shares his journey and experiences in the art world. He grew up in a rural community and developed a love for creating things from a young age. He pursued a BFA in painting from the University of Montana, where he faced challenges with the post-modern conceptually based art approach. Despite the difficulties, he persevered and continued to paint, eventually finding inspiration in plein air painting and the landscapes of Paris. Richie has studied with artists like John Poon, Maggie Siner, and Daniel Keys, who have influenced his artistic development. The conversation covers three main themes: the generosity of artists in sharing knowledge, the importance of painting from life, and the process of selling artwork. The guests emphasize the willingness of artists to share information and shortcuts they have learned throughout their careers. They encourage artists to start locally and show their work in their own communities. The conversation also explores the benefits of painting from life, whether it's landscapes or live portrait models, as it teaches valuable lessons and keeps artists humble. Lastly, the guests discuss the process of selling artwork, highlighting the importance of starting small and building a foundation in the local community. In this conversation, Mark and Richie discuss the importance of finding one's own artistic voice and not being afraid to be influenced by other artists. They emphasize the need to explore and experiment with different styles and techniques, while also staying true to oneself. They share personal experiences of discovering their own voices as artists and offer advice for those starting out. Richie also talks about his upcoming art show and workshops.


    TAKEAWAYS

    Follow opportunities that present themselves, as they can have a significant impact on your career.

    Be kind and compassionate to yourself as an artist.

    There are multiple paths to success in the art world, including university education and workshops.

    Learning the fundamentals of drawing, value, color, and atmospheric perspective is essential.

    Find inspiration in nature and the places that resonate with you.

    Building relationships with other artists can lead to valuable learning experiences and friendships. Artists ar

    generous in sharing information and shortcuts they have learned throughout their careers.

    Painting from life, whether it's landscapes or live portrait models, teaches valuable lessons and keeps artists humble.

    Starting small and showing artwork in the local community is a great way to begin selling artwork.

    Emulate and learn from artists you admire, but find your own voice and develop your own techniques. Don't be afraid to be influenced by other artists, but also find your own artistic voice.

    Experiment with different styles and techniques to discover what resonates with you.

    Personal growth as an artist comes from pushing through challenging periods and embracing the process.

    Building an online presence and networking with galleries can help get your work seen.

    Teaching workshops can be a valuable way to share knowledge and connect with other artists.


    KEY WORDS

    Richie Carter, artist journey, creativity, painting, realism, art education, artist challenges, plein air painting, Paris, art workshops, John Poon, Maggie Siner, Daniel Keys, generosity, artists sharing knowledge, painting from life, selling artwork, art community, artistic voice, artistic exploration, artistic experimentation, personal growth, art show

    1 hr 15 min
  • Episode 5 - Mark McKenna

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art


    SUMMARY

    Mark McKenna, a Western artist, shares his journey into the art world and his love for painting animals. He discusses how he initially considered a career as a dentist but was encouraged by a mentor to pursue art. Mark emphasizes the importance of painting what you love and painting consistently. He also talks about the significance of framing and the business side of being an artist. Mark shares his experience as a teacher and the influence of mentors like Greg Beecham. He mentions his upcoming online content and his involvement with galleries and art shows.


    MARK'S LINKS

    https://markmckennastudios.com

    Facebook.com/markmckennastudios

    Instagram.com/markmckennastudios


    TAKEAWAYS

    Follow your passion and paint what you love.

    Consistency is key in developing your skills as an artist.

    Invest in quality framing to enhance your artwork.

    Learn about the business side of being an artist, including marketing and record-keeping.

    Mentors play a crucial role in an artist's growth and development.

    Teaching and attending workshops can provide valuable learning experiences

    Balance family life and art by having a supportive partner.

    Stay updated on upcoming shows and events to connect with art collectors.

    Create online content to reach a wider audience and share your artistic process.


    KEY WORDS

    Mark McKenna, Mark McKenna Studios, The Business of Art, Western art, painting, animal art, art career, art mentor, art education, artist workshops, art business, framing art, online art courses, art galleries, art shows

    38 min
  • Episode 4 - Dave Santillanes

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art


    SUMMARY

    Dave Santillanes, a landscape artist, shares his journey from being a graphic designer to becoming a full- time artist. He emphasizes the importance of painting outdoors and the impact it had on his work. Dave discusses the challenges of balancing a day job with his passion for art and offers advice for aspiring artists. He also explains his creative process, which involves starting with plein air studies and then developing larger studio pieces. In this conversation, artist Dave Santillanes discusses his approach to painting, including the importance of creating smaller studies before tackling larger pieces. He also talks about the challenges of maintaining freshness and brevity in larger paintings and shares his preferred tools and materials. Santillanes emphasizes the significance of shadows in creating atmosphere and offers advice for artists looking to market their work and build relationships with collectors. He encourages artists to embrace the journey and focus on the quality of their work.


    DAVE’S LINKS

    https://dasanti.com

    https://www.facebook.com/dave.santillanes

    https://www.instagram.com/davesantillanes.art


    TAKEAWAYS

    Embrace the journey and understand that becoming a successful artist takes time and dedication.

    If you have to work a day job, make sure it's not soul-crushing and allows you to maintain your passion for art.

    Start with plein air studies to capture the essence of a scene and then develop larger studio pieces.

    Photos can be a helpful reference, but it's important to analyze color and values from plein air studies.

    Having a supportive family can play a crucial role in nurturing a passion for art. Creating smaller studies before tackling larger paintings can help solve color issues and save time and energy.

    Maintaining freshness and brevity in larger paintings can be challenging, but it's important to find the right balance.

    Shadows play a crucial role in creating atmosphere in paintings, and studying shadows can greatly improve an artist's work.

    Social media and participating in shows can be effective ways to market artwork and connect with collectors.

    The art career is a journey, and it's important to enjoy the process and focus on the quality of the work.


    KEY WORDS

    Dave Santillanes, landscape artist, Artist journey, graphic design, full-time artist, painting outdoors, balancing your day job, creative process, painting, art studies, challenges as an artist, atmospheric perspective, art tools, art materials, marketing your art, art collectors, art galleries, art shows

    1 hr 8 min
  • Episode 3 - Brent Cotton

    https://linktr.ee/businessof_art


    SUMMARY

    In this episode, Mark interviews artist Brent Cotton about his journey as an artist and his unique approach to painting. Brent shares how he was influenced by his grandmother, who was an accomplished artist, and how he started his artistic career by taking workshops and experimenting with different mediums. He discusses the importance of plein air painting and how it has shaped his style. Brent also talks about the challenges of working from photographs and the importance of pushing oneself as an artist. The conversation explores the importance of connecting with nature as an artist and the need to recharge creatively. It also delves into the process of marketing and selling artwork, including the role of galleries and the impact of social media. The conversation concludes with advice for beginners, emphasizing the importance of finding the right galleries, staying true to one's artistic vision, and balancing artistic integrity with financial considerations. Brent Cotton discusses his passion for creating uplifting and spiritual art that brings beauty and solace to viewers. He emphasizes the importance of staying true to one's artistic vision and finding joy in the creative process. Brent also shares his preferred palette and tools, including a limited color palette and the use of palette knives. He highlights the significance of lightfastness and permanence in choosing paints. While he currently does not teach workshops, he occasionally conducts classes for collectors and is open to the idea of teaching in the future.


    BRENT’S LINKS

    http://www.cottonfinearts.com/index.html https://www.instagram.com/cottonbrent https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cotton-Fine-Art/297899140234009


    TAKEAWAYS

    The importance of mentorship and learning from other artists

    The value of plein air painting in capturing mood and atmosphere

    The challenges of working from photographs and the need for artistic interpretation

    The importance of pushing oneself as an artist and trying new subjects and styles Connecting with nature is valuable for artists to recharge creatively and add authenticity to their work.

    Marketing and selling artwork can be done through galleries, national shows, and social media.

    Finding the right galleries and building relationships with them is important for artists.

    It is crucial for artists to stay true to their artistic vision and not chase trends.

    Balancing artistic integrity with financial considerations can be challenging but necessary.

    Beginners should visit galleries, do their research, and not be afraid of rejection. Creating art that is uplifting and spiritual can bring beauty and solace to viewers.

    Staying true to one's artistic vision and finding joy in the creative process is essential.

    Using a limited color palette and palette knives can create interesting textures and effects in paintings.

    Considering lightfastness and permanence when choosing paints ensures the longevity of artwork.

    Brent Cotton occasionally conducts classes for collectors and is open to the idea of teaching in the future.


    KEY WORDS

    Fine artist, artist, journey, oil painting, painting, plein air, creativity, recharge, authenticity, marketing, selling, art galleries, social media, trends, balance, artistic integrity, art, painting, spirituality, beauty, palette, tools, color lightfastness, color permanence, art workshops, art show, art shows

    1 hr 38 min

About The Business of Art Podcast

From the publisher's feed

Welcome to the Business of Art podcast, hosted by Mark McKenna, a full-time artist dedicated to uncovering the secrets of success in the fine arts world. Through insightful interviews with seasoned…

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