The Christopher Perrin Show

Description

Christopher Perrin explores why “classical education” is both widely used and widely misunderstood—and why the language we choose matters. He surveys common assumptions people attach to the word classical (Greek and Roman history, Great Books, elitism, Eurocentrism) and explains why the modern renewal is, for better or worse, “stuck” with the adjective. Perrin argues that we cannot speak clearly about education without metaphor and analogy, since language itself is rooted in metaphor (from lingua, “tongue”). He then turns to the ancient Greek and Latin vocabularies of education—especially paideia (formation) and trophē (nourishment)—to show how earlier cultures understood education as shaping a human person, not merely transmitting information. Using Ephesians 6:4, he compares Greek and Latin renderings (Paul and Jerome) to illustrate how meaning is often “lost in translation” when rich terms are flattened into single English words. Perrin closes by suggesting that if he had to choose one word to gather the tradition, it would be formation—a metaphor that points to education’s deepest aim.

Episode Outline

• Why “classical education” is misunderstood: common reactions and cultural assumptions
• Why we keep the word classical: branding, public discourse, and the need for clearer definition
• Metaphor is unavoidable: language, analogy, and the “dead metaphors” we no longer notice
• Greek terms for education: paideia (formation) and paidia (play), plus other educational vocabulary
• Trophe as nourishment: education as bringing up, feeding, and forming a child
• Ephesians 6:4 as a case study: Paul’s Greek terms and Jerome’s Latin translation
•  Translation problems: why one English word rarely matches a rich Greek/Latin term
•  The need for “economy with clarity”: using more words (and better words) to describe education
• A proposed center-word: formation as the best single term to gather education’s aims
• Where to continue learning: the podcast, ClassicalU, and ongoing reflections on definitions

Key Topics & Takeaways

• Words carry history—and drift over time: Even identical spellings (like “educate”) may not mean what they once meant.
• Metaphor isn’t optional: We describe complex realities (like education) through images, comparisons, and inherited figures of speech.
• Education is formation, not mere information: Ancient terms frame schooling as upbringing, cultivation, and shaping character.
• Greek paideia is richer than a single English equivalent: Translations often require multiple terms (training, discipline, instruction) to approximate meaning.
• Education is nourishment (trophe): The image of feeding and raising up reinforces education’s humane, embodied, relational nature.
• Translation always involves choices: Comparing Paul’s Greek with Jerome’s Latin exposes what can be gained—and lost—across languages.
• Clear speech requires more words, not fewer: When society forgets education’s purpose, precision often demands fuller description.

Questions & Discussion

• What does it mean to study the past “in its pastness”?
  Discuss why people in the past may act in ways we do not recognize—or approve. How can teachers pursue truth without turning history into propaganda or therapy?
• What do people assume when they hear “classical education” in your context?
  List the top three assumptions you encounter (e.g., “Great Books only,” elitist, Eurocentric, test-driven). Draft one sentence you could use to clarify what you mean—and what you don’t mean.
• Where do you see metaphor doing “hidden work” in the way educators talk?
  Identify common metaphors you use (pipeline, outcomes, delivery, rigor, standards, growth). What do those metaphors emphasize—and what might they obscure?
• If education is “formation,” what exactly is being formed?
  Name the top three aims you believe education should form (virtue, wisdom, piety, civic responsibility, attention, love of truth). How does your school’s daily life (not just its curriculum) support those aims?
• How does the image of education as “nourishment” challenge modern schooling?
  What “diet” are students receiving—intellectually, morally, spiritually, culturally? What might “malnourishment” look like in a school (and what would renewal look like)?

Suggested Reading & Resources

• Mortimer Adler: The Paideia Way of Classical Education by Robert Woods, Edited by David Diener
• The Good Teacher: Ten Key Pedagogical Principles That Will Transform Your Teaching by Christopher A. Perrin, PhD and Carrie Eben, MSEd 
• Festive School by Father Nathan Carr
• An Introduction to Classical Education: A Guide for Parents by Christopher A. Perrin, MDiv, PhD
• A Student's Guide to Classical Education by Zoë Perrin
• The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi Scott Jain
• Latin Vulgate: Ephesians 6:4 
• Amplified Bible: Ephesians 6:4
• Expanded Bible: Ephesians 6:4 
• ClassicalU
• ClassicalU Course: Introduction to Classical Education
• ClassicalU Course: ParentU: Is Classical Education Right for Your Children?
• ClassicalU Course: A Brief History of Classical Education
• ClassicalU Course: The Liberal Arts Tradition
• ClassicalU Course: Classical Education History and Introduction

Description

David Diener, Assistant Professor of Education at Hillsdale College and president of The Alcuin Fellowship, joins Christopher Perrin to reflect on how a philosopher’s training can become a vocational doorway into the renewal of classical education. Drawing from years in K–12 school leadership and now higher education, Diener describes why classical schools often foster unusually rich intellectual community—and why that matters in an age of academic fragmentation. He also introduces Hillsdale’s Master of Arts in Classical Education (MACE), a program designed to address one of the movement’s biggest bottlenecks: forming well-equipped teachers and administrators. The conversation highlights how enduring philosophical anchors—from Plato and Aristotle to Aquinas—can be translated into concrete classroom practice. Diener then traces the role of The Alcuin Fellowship in deepening the movement’s historical and theoretical grounding, including its influence on The Liberal Arts Tradition. Finally, they look outward to the global growth of classical Christian education, including partnerships and training initiatives in Africa, such as the Rafiki Foundation, and expanding work across Latin America. David Diener has a forthcoming monograph in Spanish that will provide chapter-length essays on various aspects of classical Christian education. Additionally, he has an upcoming course on ClassicalU.com will release in the spring of 2026.

Episode Outline

• From philosophy to teaching: Diener’s academic formation, early teaching experience abroad, and why education became his focus
• Why classical schools attract scholars: the “faculty-of-friends” culture and how it can outpace typical undergraduate settings
• Hillsdale’s MACE program: structure, distinctives, and the need for teacher formation at scale
• The Alcuin Fellowship: purpose, retreats, the “scholar-practitioner” model, and the ecosystem role it plays
• Publications and intellectual consolidation: how collaborative work helped birth The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi Jain 
• Global and Latin American growth: partnerships, conferences, and emerging networks across continents

Key Topics & Takeaways

• Formation Through Practices: What we repeatedly do shapes what we love.
• Classical Schools as Intellectual Communities: Classical faculties often cultivate cross-disciplinary conversation and shared learning in ways that counter modern academic siloing.
• Theory-to-Practice Formation: Strong programs don’t leave philosophy abstract—they press big ideas into classroom realities and school leadership decisions.
• The Teacher-Leader Pipeline is the Bottleneck: Sustainable growth depends on forming more capable teachers and administrators, not merely opening more schools.
• Why MACE is Built the Way it is: A shared core creates common language and vision; later specialization prepares teachers and leaders for distinct roles.
• Fellowship as Infrastructure for Renewal: The Alcuin Fellowship functions as a hub for scholar-practitioners who think deeply and serve schools faithfully.
• From Local Renewal to Global Opportunity: The movement’s growth is increasingly international, with meaningful work underway in Africa and expanding initiatives in Latin America.

Questions & Discussion

• What kind of “fragmentation” have you experienced in education (or your own formation)?
  What practices have helped you move toward integration?
• Why might a classical school faculty create stronger intellectual friendship than many modern institutions?
  Compare your current context to a “lunch-table culture” where teachers learn together across disciplines. What would it take to cultivate that kind of shared learning where you are?
• What is the role of a fellowship (formal or informal) in renewing an educational tradition?
  Identify one fellowship function you most need: reading, conversation, research, mentoring, or mutual sharpening. What could be your next practical step to build that community?
• How should the classical renewal relate to other organizations and conferences in the movement?
  What do you hope conferences and associations provide beyond inspiration (formation, scholarship, standards, support)? How can leaders prevent “event energy” from replacing sustained local practice?
• What opportunities—and challenges—come with global growth of classical Christian education?
  Discuss the difference between exporting a model and serving a local culture with deep roots. What do “curriculum accessibility” and “teacher training resources” mean in practical terms?

Suggested Reading & Resources

• The Liberal Arts Tradition by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi Jain
• The Liberal Arts Tradition (Audiobook) by Kevin Clark, DLS, and Ravi Jain
• Rafiki Foundation
• The Rafiki Foundation Podcast
• Association of Classical Christian Schools (ACCS)
• Society for Classical Learning (SCL)
• Hillsdale College
• Hillsdale Academy
• The Alcuin Fellowship
• Dr. Christopher Perrin on Substack 

Description

Father Nathan Carr, Headmaster of The Academy and often dubbed “the Jack Sparrow of classical education,” joins Christopher Perrin to recount his unexpected path into classical Christian school leadership—and the hard-won lessons of building a flourishing school culture over two decades. Their conversation draws on James K. A. Smith’s Desiring the Kingdom to argue that “liturgies” (in church and in culture) quietly train our loves and longings. Carr connects that insight to his own work, The Festive School, where he explores how a school’s calendar, habits, and celebrations can become formative—not merely decorative. He also points listeners to his Student Prayer Book as a practical companion for cultivating daily, embodied prayer in the life of a classroom. From The Book of Common Prayer and the daily offices to monastic rhythms like Matins and Compline, he frames education as formation through repeated, prayerful practice. Along the way, they address objections to “rote” ritual, suggesting that repetition can become spiritually alive and deeply consoling over time. The episode closes with concrete snapshots of festivity at The Academy: Lessons & Carols, Stations of the Cross, and campus-wide celebrations of Incarnation and Resurrection. Father Nathan Carr also has a forthcoming course on ClassicalU.com that will release in the early Spring of 2026.

Episode Outline

• Leadership and longevity: building a flourishing school culture over time 
• James K. A. Smith and “cultural liturgies”: how places and routines form desire 
• Formative practices of the church: reimagining “school” with ecclesial inheritance
• A sacramental worldview for education: wonder, gratitude, and formation through loving attention
• The Rule of St. Benedict and the daily offices as a template for student life: Morning prayer / Matins and Lauds, Midday prayer / Sext and remembering Christ’s crucifixion at noon, Night prayer / Compline and the Nunc Dimittis
• Ritual and repetition: responding to the “rote” objection; why repetition can become meaningful over time
• What festivity looks like at The Academy: lessons & carols, stations of the cross, and house feasts, Feast of the Incarnation, and Feast of the Resurrection

Key Topics & Takeaways

• Formation Through Practices: What we repeatedly do shapes what we love.
• Sacramental Imagination Reorients Education: Wonder and gratitude become central virtues of school life.
• Patterns of Church Applied to the School Day: Benedictine patterns and the daily offices provide a humane rhythm for students and faculty.
• Repetition Can Produce Spiritual Resilience: Words learned “by heart” may sustain faith in seasons when feelings fail.
• Festivity as Formative: Shared feasts and rituals can embody the gospel narrative in communal life.
• Healthy Leadership Protects Culture: Sustainable delegation and team-based responsibility are essential for long-term flourishing.

Questions & Discussion

• What “liturgies” are forming your students right now—outside of your intentions?
  Consider the repeated routines, spaces, technologies, and schedules in your school day. Identify one “secular liturgy” you want to counter-form with a Christian practice this term.
• What would change if your school treated reality as sacramental?
  Name one subject or habit you tend to “instrumentalize”. Discuss one concrete practice that helps students love that subject for its own sake—slow attention, gratitude, or wonder.
• How can daily prayer become the architecture of the school day rather than an add-on?
  Draft a simple rhythm (morning prayer, a noon remembrance, end-of-day prayer). Discuss what short forms (collects, call-and-response, sung pieces) would be realistic and faithful for your community.
• How do you respond to the concern that ritual is “rote” or inauthentic?
  Share a time when repetition became meaningful (music, athletics, family traditions, worship). Discuss what repetition can form that spontaneity often cannot—stability, shared language, and spiritual stamina.
• What does “festivity” look like in a way that forms virtue and wonder—not performance or spectacle?
  Choose one season (Advent, Lent, Eastertide, etc.) and design one practice (meal, hymn, reading, procession, art). Discuss how it teaches the gospel story through shared life.
• What leadership habits protect a school’s culture over decades?
  Identify one area where “delegation or death” feels real. Name one next step toward healthy team leadership and sustainable limits.

Suggested Reading

• Desiring the Kingdom by James K. A. Smith
• The Festive School by Father Nathan Carr
• Student Prayer Book by Father Nathan Carr
• The Rule of St. Benedict by Saint Benedict
• Orthodoxy by G. K. Chesterton
• The Book of Common Prayer
• Romans 1

Note: Dr. Robert D. Crouse, whom Father Nathan Carr mentions as a professor in Trinity, Halifax, Nova Scotia, actually taught in the Classics Department at King's College and Dalhousie University. 

In this reflective episode, Christopher Perrin interviewed Andrew Kern, his long-time colleague and friend, President and CEO of The CiRCE Institute, in a wide-ranging conversation about the philosophy and practice of teaching. They delve into the meaning of truth—what it is, how it’s often misunderstood, and why it remains central to classical Christian education. Drawing from ancient sources and modern confusions, Perrin and Kern challenge the reduction of truth to mere facts, propositions, or private opinion. Instead, they present a more robust vision: truth as reality itself, made known through the Logos, and discoverable in every discipline, from science to poetry.

Perrin and Kern explore how this deeper understanding of truth can liberate students, form character, and unify fragmented thinking in a disoriented age. They critique the cultural tendencies toward relativism, scientism, and technocracy, offering classical education as a hopeful and coherent response. Along the way, Perrin and Kern draw on Plato, Augustine, Pascal, and Sayers to recover a compelling view of truth that is beautiful, knowable, and formative. Listeners will be invited to rethink how we teach, how we learn, and how we live in pursuit of what is true.

Listeners may also be interested in the book Unless the Lord Builds the House, as well as the Apprenticeship Program and courses taught by Andrew Kern available on ClassicalU. They can also learn more about the newly released book The Good Teacher and the accompanying courses.

In this memorable episode of The Christopher Perrin Show, Christopher welcomes Dr. Grant Horner and Karen Moore—two veteran classical educators and authors—for a spirited conversation about the power of language, memory, and the poetic imagination in Christian classical education. Together, they explore how reading, writing, and reciting great texts form not only the intellect but the soul, training students to love truth, beauty, and goodness through embodied habits of attention and delight. As a key method of embodied learning, they consider the importance of doing some teaching in situ and walking the ground where these events and stories originated.

Drawing on decades of classroom experience and curriculum development, Dr. Horner and Moore discuss the importance of early exposure to Latin, the recovery of ancient rhetorical arts, and the integration of poetry into daily learning. Their reflections touch on everything from biblical literacy and etymology to Shakespeare, Cicero, and the Book of Common Prayer—showing how the classical tradition equips students not only to analyze language but to inhabit it with grace and conviction.

Listeners will come away invigorated to cultivate memory, nourish imagination, and recover the lost arts of eloquence—beginning in their homes, schools, and homerooms.

In this special episode of The Christopher Perrin Show, Christopher welcomes Dr. Angel Parham, professor of sociology at the University of Virginia and co-author of The Black Intellectual Tradition. Together, they explore the often-overlooked legacy of classical learning in the Black intellectual tradition, tracing its vital contributions from figures like Anna Julia Cooper and Frederick Douglass to the modern classroom.

Drawing on her own journey through homeschooling, historical sociology, and the founding of the Nyansa Classical Community, Dr. Parham advocates for a deeply integrated approach to classical education—one that honors the Mediterranean and African roots of the tradition while inviting all students, especially the marginalized, into its freeing and formative power. The conversation also touches on themes of cultural polarization, the liberating nature of reading and writing, and how ancient texts can shape a student's soul and imagination—especially when engaged through the timeless practice of keeping a commonplace book.

Listeners will come away inspired to recover classical education as a unifying, deeply human tradition—and perhaps even begin a florilegium of their own.

In this episode, Dr. Perrin gives a foretaste from his forthcoming book with Carrie Eben, The Good Teacher, as he advocates for singing as a powerful and now neglected pedagogical tool. Drawing from traditional sources like Plato and Augustine, Scripture, and personal anecdotes, he explores how music—especially in the form of singing and chanting—can shape the soul, foster joy, and make learning permanent. Perrin traces the etymological and cultural significance of music (from the Greek muse and mousikē), noting how integral it once was to early education and soul formation. He challenges modern classical educators to break free from their limited educational upbringing and rediscover this method of teaching, particularly in the lower grades. Through vivid examples—such as his daughter’s ability to recall scripture, history, and Latin years later through song—Perrin demonstrates how singing enables children to internalize and retain knowledge in a joyful and embodied way. He urges educators to sing far more often than feels natural to the adult mind, to make use of existing resources, and to partner with others in creating musical material. The episode concludes with a compelling invitation: to teach in a way that aligns with the nature of children and the harmonious order of the cosmos—by singing what is true, good, and beautiful.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Perrin draws upon his forthcoming book with Carrie Eben, The Good Teacher and invites listeners to reconsider the meaning of virtue. It once stood at the heart of education but now often eludes clear definitions. Considering personal experience and the broader tradition of liberal education, Perrin explores how the modern educational landscape has drifted from its roots, leaving many unable to articulate what virtue—or even education—truly is. He explains the classical understanding of virtue as human excellence, rooted in the Latin virtus and Greek aretē, and discusses the cardinal virtues of prudence, justice, temperance, and courage.

Perrin then turns to the forgotten tradition of the liberal arts, challenging even well-educated listeners to name and understand them. From this foundation, he builds toward a vision of education as the cultivation of virtue—not only moral and civic but also intellectual and even physical and spiritual. He provides a taxonomy of intellectual or academic virtues—including wonder, zeal, humility, attentiveness, courage, and discipline—and discusses how these can and must be cultivated in students and educators alike. Throughout, Perrin emphasizes that true education forms not just the mind, but the whole person, and that the rediscovery of this vision requires a recovery of vocabulary, tradition, and purpose.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Perrin explores the often-neglected role of beauty in classical education, emphasizing the importance of engaging all five senses in the learning experience. He challenges the text-centered focus of modern education and invites educators to rethink school environments, advocating for spaces that reflect truth, goodness, and beauty. Through thought experiments and practical suggestions, he encourages schools to move beyond utilitarian aesthetics toward classrooms that feel more like homes, museums, or gardens. He also highlights schools that have successfully integrated beauty into their educational philosophy and provides resources for further exploration. Listeners might also enjoy the book Making School Beautiful by Dr. John Skillen.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Perrin explores the tension between rigor and rest in classical education, drawing on Aristotle’s concept of virtue as a balance between extremes. He examines how rigor is often emphasized as a corrective to declining academic standards but warns against its overuse, which can lead to a rigid and joyless educational experience. Discussion includes monastic traditions, the etymology of “school” (scholé), and scriptural examples to illustrate how classical education thrives when both rigor and rest are harmonized. By drawing on historical and philosophical insights, as well as practical examples from classical schools, Dr. Perrin advocates for a blended approach that includes contemplation, wonder, and delight alongside academic challenge.