Our prisons are bursting at the seams. They cost at least $2 billion per year to run – and that’s before we consider the longer-term and wider-reaching costs to our health, education, housing, justice and welfare systems.

University of Auckland indigenous studies professor Tracey McIntosh joins Bernard to interrogate the reasons why we, as a society, persist with ever-larger and ever-more-damaging institutions that are failing to reduce crime rates or recidivism (and, in fact, may actually be increasing them).

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices