The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter

Teruyo & Lennox are theatre artists in cult recovery, currently hard at work on a musical inspired by their personal experiences in a shamanic cult. They explore what it's like to break away from high-demand influence, while offering a socio-political deconstruction of the colonial headspace that informs it. Music from the play’s soundtrack is woven throughout this powerful conversation, which touches upon a whole helluva lot in an hour. Teruyo & Lennox describe how crafting a musical - both in storyline and soundtrack - enables them to give greater voice and vehicle to the trauma they’ve experienced. Teruyo shares: how their upbringing and mixed-racial identity primed them to 'cult hop' and spend sixteen years in devotion to their last cult; how the so-called 'Freedom Convoy' in January 2022 was the final straw that inspired them break free; and how their own internalized white supremacy kept them 'in' the cult and separate-from their Japanese heritage for most of their life. Lennox opens up about their own early in life conditioning, Baptist summer camps, and time spent in a coercive and controlling relationship prior to joining the shamanic cult the musical is based on. They invite us to challenge our collective hyper-fixation on narcissistic cult leaders, turning our attention instead toward understanding why it is that the 'spells' cultic leaders cast over us work so damn well. Music brings dimension to this conversation, as we dive even deeper into what it might actually mean to decolonize the work of cult recovery. How are our cult experiences microcosms of systemic oppression? And why is anti-colonial, anti-racism work so essential and relevant to holistic cult recovery? Teruyo & Lennox apply their neurodivergent artistry to these questions, and it results in what is perhaps this pod’s most unique and sound-rich conversation to date.

Teruyo (they/them) is a racialized queer, neurodiverse, non-binary theatre artist, anti-oppression activist and academic. Teruyo's encounter with cults and the aftermath of manipulative mind games have fueled their drive to delve into healing and reclaiming identity through anti-colonial and anti-racist cult recovery. Through their academic research and the creation and production of original plays and musical theatre, they aspire to amplify the marginalized voices of the global majority, foster socio-political change, and cultivate trauma-informed artistry.

Lennox (they/them) is a neurodiverse, non-binary, queer theatre artist. They've endured the clutches of multiple cults, ranging from religious and spiritual to white supremacy. Ditching society's expectations and cultural boundaries, they've fully embraced their love for writing musicals, giving toxic masculinity the finger. Their creative outlet? Crafting badass socio-political musical stories that resonate with their true calling. They're rewriting the rules and reclaiming their rightful place behind the instruments.

Guest Vocalists: Aleyah Erin Lennon & Carter Hickey

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The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

This week, Candice sits down with Somatic Trauma Specialist, Magdalena Weinstein. Originally from Chile, Magdalena spent the first 17 years of her life living under the rule of an authoritarian dictatorship. In this episode, she shares her childhood experiences, family life, and what motivated her to immigrate to the US in 2004. Magdalena speaks very candidly about the challenges of being in immigrant in America, and about time spent in a series of traumatizing and controlling environments - dictatorship in her formative years that stoked an early hunger for autonomy; years spent as an Iyengar yoga student and teacher striving for whitewashed dominion over her body; and a decade of investment in a coaching program where she experienced mind control and ongoing racial micro-aggressions. She generously shares each of these stories with us, poignantly illustrating what all of these seemingly unrelated experiences have in common. In 2019, Magdalena trained as a trauma specialist. In the final third of the episode, she helps us understand how trauma related to control is stored in the body and what, both individually and collectively, we can do about it. She describes the differences between control and personal agency, particularly in terms of owning and choosing psychological and somatic states. Then, Magdalena calls on wellness practitioners to trade Western idealism for a more realistic and collective approach to the growing challenges we now face as humans.

Magdalena Weinstein, SEP (she/her), is a Somatic Trauma Specialist who offers trauma recovery interventions utilizing Somatic Experiencing®, Touch Skills, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP), Parts Work, and Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy perspectives. Blending the fields of Somatics, Neurology, and Social Justice, she is committed to helping individuals and groups transition towards personal, ancestral, and collective trauma healing. Her specialties are developmental and complex trauma, C-PTSD, PTSD, chronic conditions, domestic violence, and sexual assault trauma, and social justice dynamics, including racial trauma, immigration trauma, and war trauma. Originally from Chile, she was born and raised in a Dictatorship for her first 17 years of life and immigrated to the USA in 2004.

She lives in a rural home in Mendocino, Northern California (on unceded Pomo Territory), with her husband, their two children, dogs, cats, and snakes. She has a private practice in her home studio, is an assistant at SE trainings, and is a member of the DEI committee at Somatic Experiencing International. She is also finishing the first year of Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy Training.

Referenced In This Episode:

• Heather Cox Richardson - September 11, 2023
• Doppelganger: A Trip into the Mirror World, by Naomi Klein
• Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, by Yuval Noah Harari

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free.

This week’s Patreon Preview features excerpts from bonus episodes DD #31 & #32 where former 'Org' trainer, Jill Pagano, shares about her time in the practice. The complete two-hour convo is available to monthly patrons of the pod. 

In it, Jill shares:

• What it's been like listening to the podcast & why she chose to step forward at this time. 
• How she became involved in 'the Org' practice + the grief, loss, and physical pain she experienced when she chose to step away.
• Her feelings about investing 13 of her prime earning years in the Org; she shares about the long-term impact on her and her family.

The three of us discuss:

• The financial realities of hosting trainings for the Org.
• How compliance and 'fawning for favor' in the training environment kept many out of the direct line of fire, but did emotional damage nonetheless. 
• The idea of "badmouthing" the practice and how infantilizing it is to be told what we can and cannot say; good-girl conditioning be damned!
• What a 'call to action' might actually look like when it comes to addressing culty dysfunction in the wellness industry at large. 
• And why the three of us agree that 'saviorship' isn't likely to come from within,

You can access the full convo at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. 

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

As a lead-in to this week’s episode, Candice spends some time defining cultural appropriation, specifically in western spirituality and wellness spaces. Then things pick up where they left off last week, with the second half of a two-part conversation with artist, activist, and educator, Aleyah-Erin Lennon. Aleyah shares why she was so drawn into the world of wellness and contextualizes how she realized she had to step away. Spiritual appropriation and misuse of ‘the s-word’ (shamanism) is explored, along with how unconscious colonial entitlement can be so hard-wired that we, white folks, can become 'takers’. Aleyah offers a deeply compassionate approach to this topic, one that takes into account the cavernous spiritual hunger that drives appropriation; and she shares what her Indigenous mentors have taught her about how we might grow in humility and in our collective spiritual capacity. Aleyah and Candice ponder the question: How might we explore spiritual tools that help and add value to our lives without co-opting, stealing, and perpetuating colonial harm? Cognitive dissonance and emotional triggers are discussed, as well as how an understanding of cult recovery can support us in our anti-racism learning and unlearning. Aleyah invites the investigation of ‘the poverty of whiteness’ and shares what it might look like to co-create expressions of spirituality and personal growth that are relationally accountable. The episode wraps with an invitation to support Aleyah and her collaborators to share their knowledge more widely.

Aleyah-Erin Lennon (she/her) is a scholar, speaker, poet and musician. Through an anti-colonial and trauma-informed lens, her focus is on healing the disconnection and abuses in the trilogy of our relationships to Self, Others, and Land. Created in partnership with Indigenous Elders, knowledge holders, and friends, he published work weaves diverse cultural narratives, story sharing, and poetry into a landscape of questions concerning our sense of identity and belonging.

• GoFundMe to Support Aleyah's Work
• Community Voices For Manoomin
• Osawamick G’Tigaaning
• Mother Earth Walk

Also referenced in this episode:

• The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
• Conspirituality: How New Age Conspiracy Theories Became a Health Threat, by Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, & Julian Walker
• White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better, by Regina Jackson & Saira Rao
• My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies, by Resmaa Menakam
• Plastic Shamans and Astroturf Sun Dances: New Age Commercialization of Native American Spirituality, by Lisa Aldred

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Candice is back on the main feed, asking for help as she deconstructs the striking overlap between cult dynamics and colonial harm. Inspired by the work of BIPOC educators and anti-racism activists, she explores how social location factors into collective cult recovery. Then, artist, activist, and educator, Aleyah-Erin Lennon joins Candice for the first half of a two-part conversation that explores what it might mean, if we, as white women in the world were to take radical responsibility. Aleyah identifies as a second-generation diasporic Irish descendant and white settler Canadian who has lived her entire life in the territories of Anishinaabeg nations. She has been privileged to work alongside and learn from Indigenous communities across the Great Lakes region for the last 15 years in service to their ecological and educational visions. Together, Aleyah and Candice explore what unconscious colonial identities have in common with the cult mindset, picking apart what it might actually mean to break free from the cult of whiteness. Aleyah shares about her background and how a search for spiritual community inspired her to take up decolonizing identity work, and she cites the wisdom of Indigenous mentors who have generously offered their consent and support for this conversation. Decolonization is defined in the context of intergenerational healing on all sides of the colonial and racial divide. Aleyah shares how a threefold methodology of deep listening, critical self-reflection, and embodied action can guide us toward relational accountability. Aleyah shares how reclaiming a connection to her ancestral roots has been pivotal to her living activism and points to how we all might find a deeper sense of meaning and recovery as we grapple with where we’re headed.

Aleyah-Erin Lennon (she/her) is a scholar, speaker, poet and musician. Through an anti-colonial and trauma-informed lens, her focus is on healing the disconnection and abuses in the trilogy of our relationships to Self, Others, and Land. Created in partnership with Indigenous Elders, knowledge holders, and friends, her published work weaves diverse cultural narratives, story sharing, and poetry into a landscape of questions concerning our sense of identity and belonging.

Referenced in this episode:

• White Privilege, Quantified - Joe Pinsker
• My Grandmother's Hands - Resmaa Menekam
• Sacred Water Circle – Elder Dorothy Taylor
• Nibi Emosaawdamajig – Dr. Elder Shirley Williams
• Circle of All Nations – Algonquin Elder Grandfather William Commanda-ba

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Here's another sneak peek at what’s been happening over on Patreon in the ongoing deconstructing dogma series. Every week, Candice sits down with friends and former colleagues to critically examine undue influence and culty indoctrination in the wellness world, and there are now 30+ bonus episodes available to all patrons of the pod. This episode features some of the best moments from recent releases. 

Excerpts include: 

• Sample cuts from a recent solo episode with Candice where she shares a bit about a recent surge in listenership and all the feels it's bringing up for her & others over in the private After The Org recovery community. Inspired by the work of Matthew Remski, she speaks about survivor shame and also why so many folks double down in defense of the practice. 
• Snippets from a two-part convo with former Org trainer, Dr. Barb Wesson, who joins Tracy & Candice to deconstruct spirituality - sans all the cultiness. How do we recover a sense of meaning in the aftermath of all that dogma? 
• Excerpts from a timely convo with veteran fitness pro, Fiona Winter, who joins Candice & Tracy from Wales to discuss why she recently decided to let her Org license lapse - after two decades. Fiona also shares how she's incorporating greater consent & inclusivity into her teaching practice. 
• The episode wraps with a sample of a long-form interview with Valerie Branch, who worked as a frontline receptionist at 'the Org' back in the early aughts. She & Candice trade stories about the years they spent working together at Org HQ, and Valerie delivers some welcome hindsight wisdom to those just stepping out.

If you want more of what this episode has to offer, consider becoming a patron of the pod for as little as $5 a month. Patreon donations keep the podcast ad-free. If you're interested in learning more, visit patreon.com/thedeeperpulse.

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

CW: This episode features reference to emotional abuse and coercion.

This week, we pick up where we left off in a two-part conversation with former ‘Org’ trainer, Shannon Geltner. The episode opens with Shannon & Tracy deep breathing through their emotional triggers to offer us a peek inside of yet-another disturbing trainer training - and a group sharing ‘exercise’ that has cult-vibes written all over it. Shannon shares how it felt being publicly shamed in front of her peers, then shares how going through a divorce (and finding a good therapist) helped her come to terms with her own codependency; which delivered up some startling insights about not only her marriage, but her fourteen-year relationship to the Org. She expresses her grief openly, and shares why she hung onto the practice and her primary source of livelihood for as long as she could, until an interaction with ‘Marissa’ the Org's co-founder really opened her eyes. Shannon began expressing her boundaries and was soon after fired as a trainer. She tells us what it was like receiving her demotion letter; not only how it felt but also why she chose to walk away silently and without protest. She delivers a powerful message to her fellow trainers - current and former - who are listening, and Tracy experiences an unexpected swell of emotion that leads us into a shameless and fiery discussion about anger, outrage, and the pressure to forgive. The episode wraps with Shannon’s share around her personal experiences at Tony Robbins trainings, and how there is really nothing new under the sun when it comes to packaging and selling self-development. This is long episode with lots of twists and turns, and we're hoping it opens all of us to more nuanced discussions around shared accountability.

Shannon Geltner, MS has been teaching conscious, therapeutic movement for 19+ years in the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex as well as nationally. She is the owner of Compassion Fitness™ LLC and she is trained in a wide variety of movement modalities, both traditional and non-traditional. Shannon did her Pilates Instructor certification in 2017 with Club Pilates in their 500-hour Teacher Training program, and is currently the General Manager for two local Club Pilates studios in DFW. Pilates certification allows her to apply her years of expertise in anatomy, giving her the ability to create fun, whole body workouts on specialized apparatus, which in turn has helped her overcome injury and heal her own body in a healthy and safe way. In addition to Pilates, Shannon is an Org 1st Degree Black Belt, a former Org Teacher Trainer, a JourneyDance Facilitator, and a Melt Method instructor. Shannon holds a Bachelor of Business Administration in Entrepreneurship and a Masters of Science in Natural Health. She always encourages her students to create a healthy, joyful lifestyle by integrating nutrition and mindful movement into their daily lives. Shannon loves the Pilates community and the conscious movement Pilates creates, and she feels blessed every day to be able to live and teach what she loves!

Referenced in this episode:

• Deep Cut: Post-Cult Shame (Conspirituality podcast)

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

The series continues with a peek inside ‘Org’ training ‘cult’ure. Candice opens the episode with a longer than usual intro, sharing details about the Org training hierarchy for the first time as a lead-in to the first half of a two-part convo; one that was originally intended for Patreon but was, in turns out, 'destined' for the main feed. Shannon Geltner was affiliated with the Org for 14 years, progressing through the ranks to become an NGT (or next generation trainer) right alongside good friend of the pod, Tracy Stamper - who also joins this conversation. The convo opens with a discussion about how it feels (scary AF) speaking out in defiance of the Org’s cultish indoctrination. Nevertheless, Shannon shares how she felt when the company began soliciting a whole new generation of trainers, years after she'd been so callously fired without explanation. Gossip is discussed, but not the toxic kind; the sort of ‘gossip’ that reinforces accountability and keeps us safe from harm. The three share a belly laugh when talking about how, back in the day, they each had to regularly offer up “but it isn’t a cult” defense to outsiders who just didn't get it. And then, Shannon shares about her personal journey with the Org; her ‘this is it’ moment, and what it was like progressing through the various belt-level trainings. She shares details surrounding the first red flag she remembers, which leads into a discussion about fawning in which Candice reveals a fairly-recent experience with this doe-eyed nervous system adaptation. Shannon offers empathy to all who were (like her) body shamed in the Org training environment, then speaks to what it was like being “courted” as a second-generation trainer. Part 1 wraps with Shannon and Tracy giving us all an insider’s peek into the initial recruitment process, as well as the disorienting mixed messages received once they signed on as trainers.

Shannon Geltner, MS has been teaching conscious, therapeutic movement for 19+ years in the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex as well as nationally. She is the owner of Compassion Fitness™ LLC and she is trained in a wide variety of movement modalities, both traditional and non-traditional. Shannon did her Pilates Instructor certification in 2017 with Club Pilates in their 500-hour Teacher Training program, and is currently the General Manager for two local Club Pilates studios in DFW. Pilates certification allows her to apply her years of expertise in anatomy, giving her the ability to create fun, whole body workouts on specialized apparatus, which in turn has helped her overcome injury and heal her own body in a healthy and safe way. In addition to Pilates, Shannon is an Org 1st Degree Black Belt, a former Org Teacher Trainer, a JourneyDance Facilitator, and a Melt Method instructor. Shannon holds a Bachelor of Business Administration in Entrepreneurship and a Masters of Science in Natural Health. She always encourages her students to create a healthy, joyful lifestyle by integrating nutrition and mindful movement into their daily lives. Shannon loves the Pilates community and the conscious movement Pilates creates, and she feels blessed every day to be able to live and teach what she loves! 

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free.

CW: This episode makes detailed reference to verbal abuse + sexual abuse allegations made againstTony Robbins and his staff.

This week’s Patreon Preview features excerpts from bonus episodes DD #26 & #27 where 'Org' instructor, Lucy Page joins Candice & Tracy to deconstruct culty patterns around accountability. In this preview, Lucy shares about events surrounding a moment back in March when the Org COO posted a photo on Facebook of her & the Org founder sitting in the business offices attending a virtual Tony Robbins training. After fielding concerns from multiple students, Lucy reached out to the COO - who is also her former mentor - on a personal thread with a heads up and a professional request. Listen in to hear how it all played out from Lucy's point of view.

You can access the full convo (DD #26 & 27) at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse. In the complete two-part conversation we discuss:

• Lucy's history with the Org & its new leadership.
• How the incident above, in many ways, led Lucy to discover this podcast. 
• What it's been like listening & finding parallels within her own community.
• The culty commonalities between 'the Org' and the Tony Robbins training environment.
• LAGTs (large group awareness trainings) & specifically why the whole breakdown-to-breakthrough training model is so damn problematic.
• What Lucy's former marriage taught her about narcissistic abuse.
• Plus, is change really on the horizon when it comes to the next generation of Org leadership? Lucy weighs in.

Referenced in this episode:

• Article: Tony Robbins - abuse allegations
• Video: Nanine McCool stands up to Tony Robbins & his criticisms of the Me Too Movement.

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

CW:  This episode features reference to emotional abuse, cult dynamics, and coercion. 

We’re back with Part 2 of our convo with former ‘Org’ studio owner, Mark Frossard. If you missed part one, you'll definitely wanna start there. This conversation was recorded during Pride month and we pick things back up just as Mark is sharing about annual Pride events he led during his tenure as a studio owner. He and his former business partner didn’t always see eye-to-eye, and this leads into a discussion of how social movements are very often appropriated and commodified by corporations. And how the experiences and perspectives of those who are supposedly being represented get erased entirely. Mark then continues with his story, sharing about rising tensions at the studio, as well as painful realizations he began having around his business partnership. When he finally chooses to use ‘the a-word’ and name aloud the abuse he and others are experiencing, chaos ensues and Mark is emotionally isolated from his community - and from speaking his truth. He shares details around attempts at business mediation and how it came to be that - despite being the general manager and the majority owner of the studio - he eventually surrendered to a $0 buyout. Mark reveals why he believes the Org founder was in many ways instrumental to these failed negotiations, supporting his claims with details surrounding her communications with him directly. He speaks with vulnerability about his exit and the sorrow and humiliation that he felt during his last days at the studio. Then, he opens up about his healing process - what it’s been like to experience trauma triggers for the first time, and why continuing to dance has been such a pivotal part of his healing journey. Finally, Mark speaks directly to his community for the first time since leaving, reminding us all why the compassion and humility he was once shamed for is, in fact, his superpower.
 
Mark Frossard is a creative, multi-faceted artist living in Santa Fe, NM. He joined The Org in 2010 and eventually became majority owner of a successful dance-fitness studio. Mark left The Org and his studio in 2021 after experiencing the effects of cult-dynamics and narcissistic abuse. Since then, Mark, his husband, and a group of friends continue to dance together without the confines of any particular organization or style. Currently, Mark is an Adventure Coordinator at a luxury resort. He guides hikes, art classes, and creates memorable experiences! Instagram: @markfrossardarts 

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates.