The Deeper Pulse with Candice Schutter

This week, the 'cult'ure series circles back to ‘the Org’. Tracy Stamper joins Candice once again for a two-part interview with Mark Frossard. In 2013, Mark became the majority owner in an internationally-recognized movement studio that became a destination for Org affiliates worldwide. But in 2021, he stepped away from the practice for good due to a falling out with his former business partner who was a rising star in the practice. Mark was not permitted to speak out at the time. Two years later, he breaks his silence, revealing details about his experience publicly for the very first time. In Part 1 of this conversation, Mark shares how it was his passion for art that first introduced him to the Org practice and the studio space that would eventually become his home away from home. He speaks about the red flags that were present in the Org training environment - as well as in his business partnership - and shares why he thinks he excused the culty dysfunction for so long. Mark recounts what it was like being one of the only men in the practice, which leads to a discussion of gender norms and a general lack of diversity & representation at the Org. Mark bravely opens up about the somatic dominance and body shaming that he experienced as a teacher and choreographer; and about how he was deliberately shut out of legacy negotiations going on behind closed doors. Little did he know where it would all leave him - heartbroken and empty-handed.

CW:  This episode features body shaming, verbal abuse, and coercion. Please listen with care.

Mark Frossard is a creative, multi-faceted artist living in Santa Fe, NM. He joined The Org in 2010 and eventually became majority owner of a successful dance-fitness studio. Mark left The Org and his studio in 2021 after experiencing the effects of cult-dynamics and narcissistic abuse. Since then, Mark, his husband, and a group of friends continue to dance together without the confines of any particular organization or style. Currently, Mark is an Adventure Coordinator at a luxury resort. He guides hikes, art classes, and creates memorable experiences! Instagram: @markfrossardarts 

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Candice is back with another solo episode, this time asking some big questions: What is gaslighting & why is it such a thing? Why are so many people allergic to the word victim? And is spiritual dogma getting in the way of relational accountability?  The episode opens with a peek into Conspirituality - and a new book by the same name - leading into an exploration of spiritual supremacy and how/why social stigmas around victimhood have become so prevalent. Candice shares personally about her long and messy history with gaslighting, and how devotion to new ageism only added to her confusion. She challenges the notion that all suffering is meant, then breaks down the cognitive biases that fuel a victim blaming/shaming culture. True victimhood isn’t something we choose, and it’s very often shame-inducing because of how it is culturally conflated with unlovability and learned helplessness; examples of this are offered, as well as a critical look at the impossible standards that victims (and/or advocates who speak out on their behalf) are held to. Tone policing is defined and examined as a deflection of accountability, as well as other tools in the arsenal of those who are truly ‘playing the victim’… aka co-opt the language of the oppressed in order to justify retaliation in the face of restorative resistance. This is a jam-packed episode as a lead-in to the final few conversations in the ‘cult’ure series - which will roll out from now through August. 

Referenced in this episode:

• Conspirituality: How New Age Conspiracy Theories Became a Health Threat, by Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, & Julian Walker
• Conspirituality podcast episode #148: Marianne Williamson & Asshole Jesus
• Nicki Clyne Leaves Keith Raniere - her statement
• Conflict Is Not Abuse: Overstating Harm, Community Responsibility, and the Duty of Repair, by Sarah Schulman
• Shiny Happy People (documentary) on Amazon Prime
• Clip of Tony Robbins & Nanine McCool - Unleash The Power Within - March 2018
• Punishment Is Not Accountability, article by Kate McCord with the Virginia Sexual & Domestic Violence Action Alliance

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free. 

This week’s Patreon Preview features excerpts from bonus episodes #23 where Candice & Tracy deconstruct the psychological coping mechanism known as dissociation.

DD #23 touches upon:

• Dissociation - what is it and how does it relate to cult dynamics?
• Altered states. Hovering, meditation, & mindfulness, oh my!
• Is it really a good idea to be 'present' all the damn time?
• Candice shares how she thinks a lifetime dissociation has impacted her memory long-term?
• Tracy shares her own journey with dissociation, then poses a question: Is it possible to dissociate within, via sensation?
• Expert input helps us to understand submissive states and how/why 'derealization' is normalized in wellness spaces.
• Does dissociation play a role in cognitive dissonance?

Referenced in this episode:

• Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships, by Janja Lalich
• Terror, Love, and Brainwashing, by Alexandra Stein

Listen in for a sample of the above, and visit patreon.com/thedeeperpulse to gain access to the whole episode. 

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free. Learn more at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse.

This week's Patreon Preview features excerpts from bonus episodes #20 & #21 with Candice and friend of the pod, Monica Welty. Topics include:

• A peek at the new age 'inner asshole' aka: the downside of culty wellness indoctrination and how it can show up.
• Why the popular wellness adage “the body never lies” can be so damn problematic.
• How striving for an ideal isn’t necessary healthy & why this critical distinction matters.
• Are there ‘cults’ everywhere we look, or are we just paranoid?
• Dissociation; is it always a bad thing?

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

In part two with former MLM Coach, Jennifer Rajala, she shares her struggle to sustain top-tier status at Arbonne. In 2020, despite being investigated by the FTC, dozens of MLMs chose to leverage vulnerability and ramp up recruitment during a global pandemic, and Jennifer tells us why this didn't sit well with her. She also shares how the body-shaming culture at Arbonne impacted her personally, and why she decided to join the inner circle at Rank Makers as an MLM coach. When her clients weren’t getting the results that the high-dollar investment promised, Jennifer assumed she just needed more training, so she doubled-down, powering through a series of 'mastery' events with Tony Robbins. Jennifer tells us what those workshops were like - the tools that were helpful and as well as the misogynistic red flags that were waving wildly. Jennifer also offers us an invaluable peek behind the curtain when it comes to persuasive marketing and the carefully-calculated manipulations that leaders use to justify coercive sales-funnel strategies. Jennifer shares why she left Arbonne and was subsequently excommunicated from Rank Makers when stress led to a health crisis and a series of wake-up calls. The episode wraps with Jennifer’s message of hope to anyone who is concerned that their loved one is stuck in the world of MLM.

Jennifer Rajala graduated from Michigan State University with a BS in Social Sciences & Criminal Justice. Before she was involved with MLM, she worked for State Government investigating cases of child abuse & neglect. Immediately after exiting the world of MLM & Coaching, she began speaking out as a very vocal anti-MLM activist through podcast appearances and on TikTok and Instagram. She currently works for two different non-profits (both helping kids) and loves being active in her community without feeling like she has to recruit everyone. She lives in Michigan with her husband Derek and their three daughters. She loves creating content, speaking, educating, and being a voice for others. IG: @jennifer.rajala | Tiktok: @jennifer.rajala

Referenced in this episode:

• Jennifer’s IG Highlight
• Julie Anderson - anti-MLM
• BuzzFeed re: Tony Robbins
• Ponzinomics, by Robert L. FitzPatrick
• Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan
• Take Back Your Life, by Janja Lalich

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Jennifer Rajala’s TikTok page reads: “For 8 years I was deep in two MLM CULTs. I got people in, now I help them GTFO.” In part one of a two-parter, former MLM Coach, Jennifer Rajala, sits down with Candice to share her story. When Jennifer was pregnant with her second child, she left behind a career in social work to join the world of multi-level marketing. After a few years of high-minded hustle, she became a top-tier earner and was offered coveted White Mercedes status as an Arbonne rep. But despite her continual hard work (and the literal street cred) life as a successful MLM’er didn’t pan out as promised. So she doubled down, expanding into the world of MLM Coaching. Jennifer was soon invited to join the 100K Inner Circle at Rank Makers, a culty collective of network marketing entrepreneurs who follow the daily-drop guidance of MLM Power Coach, Ray Higdon. Jennifer shares how her journey in the world of MLM had her hustling nonstop, perpetually leveling-up but continually unable to deliver consistent results for herself or her clients. She describes the slow burn indoctrination of MLM ‘cult’ure and how fixation on personal mindset kept her from seeing the many flaws inherent in the so-called business model. What happens when the world of multi-level marketing collides with status-driven power coaching? Even more people get taken advantage of. A few high-earning online consultants make bank through exploitative labor practices, teaching others how to employ the same hyper-capitalistic predatory sales practices that they themselves engage in. And all of this is in service to an industry with a 97-99% failure rate. Jennifer offers us a brave and unabashed peek behind the curtain.

Jennifer Rajala graduated from Michigan State University with a BS in Social Sciences & Criminal Justice. Before she was involved with MLM, she worked for State Government investigating cases of child abuse & neglect. Immediately after exiting the world of MLM & Coaching, she began speaking out as a very vocal anti-MLM activist through podcast appearances and on TikTok and Instagram. She currently works for two different non-profits (both helping kids) and loves being active in her community without feeling like she has to recruit everyone. She lives in Michigan with her husband Derek and their three daughters. She loves creating content, speaking, educating, and being a voice for others. She hopes to write a memoir or a book one day and do something with kids to help them to learn about coercive control.

Instagram: @jennifer.rajala | Tiktok: @jennifer.rajala

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

Deconstructing Dogma is a video bonus series hosted exclusively on Patreon. Patrons of The Deeper Pulse have unlimited access to these weekly extras in exchange for their support of the podcast. Patreon donations help keep the main feed of this pod authentic and ad-free. Learn more at patreon.com/thedeeperpulse.

This week’s preview is Deconstructing Dogma w/ Susan McCulley. Former Org instructor Susan McCulley joins Tracy & Candice for a deconstruction of cult fitness norms. The conversation centers around a singular question: How can we do movement and fitness differently? Excerpts from DD #19 & #20.

Access the full conversation at:  patreon.com/thedeeperpulse

Susan McCulley is a mindful movement leader, artist, and writer. She trained with 'the Org' from 2000-2006 and 'after being on the fence for dozen years' she chose to separate officially in 2020. She is the creator of The Age of Becoming: Embodied Practices Empowering Women over 50 community which offers free movement practices & workshops, connection & community and more. Her 30-Lesson audio course, Building Balance in Your Body & Life was published on the Insight Timer meditation app in early 2022. Trained in a variety of mindful movement practices, she particularly loves guiding embodied awareness with people of all abilities and experiences, in groups of all sizes, both in person and on-line. She is passionate about supporting people as they connect with the inherent wisdom of the body and take their practice into life. Her teaching schedule, classes, books and art are available at www.susanmcculley.com.

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

This week on the pod, we explore one-on-one cult dynamics with memoirist, Emma Stevens. Emma’s story begins with a peek inside of her first book - The Gathering Place: An Adoptee Story. She shares why she felt compelled to share her story of relinquishment and how the industry of adoption is problematic and ‘a little culty’ in sense that it doesn’t always serve the best interests of the children it serves. Emma describes being adopted into an authoritarian family and how having so little room for individuation has made her more susceptible to cultic influence as an adult. The conversation then turns to her second memoir, A Fire Is Coming, where she shares what it was like to fall victim to a narcissistic therapist who coerced Emma to leave her marriage and move in with her. She describes how this individual fostered a slow-burn dependency that preyed on Emma’s core wounds and fostered a disorganized attachment bond. Thanks to support from the outside, Emma was able to eventually move away from this relationship and take legal action against her abuser; but it would take her years to come to terms with her experience. Sobriety, in every sense of the word, paved way for deep healing, and now Emma is bravely sharing her story with the world in hopes of bringing awareness to the cult-of-one dynamics that are so common in abusive one-on-one relationships.

Emma Stevens is a U.S. domestic adoptee from birth and has survived layers of trauma that have put her on multiple journeys. It is Emma’s desire to be part of the movement that is dedicated to help bring forth change to the way our world views the needs and support of adopted individuals, as well as bring awareness of the exploitation that can occur by the hands of counselors, therapists, and other healthcare professionals. A Fire Is Coming is Emma Stevens’ second book. Her first was The Gathering Place: An Adoptee’s Story. She has an undergraduate degree in journalism and has completed Master’s level course work in psychology, specializing in Marriage, Family, and Child counseling. She has two adult children and two cat children who she adores.

Referenced In This Episode:

• A Fire Is Coming, by Emma Stevens
• The Gathering Place, by Emma Stevens
• Phoenix Rising - HBO
• Surviving R Kelly - Netflix
• Bad Vegan - Netflix

If you’d like support with in a cult-of-one partnership, reach out to the Domestic Violence Hotline - 800-799-7233 or text START to 88788

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

This week, we're stepping outside the bounds of wellness 'cult'ure etiquette with an honest peek behind the curtain of a multi-billion dollar industry - YOGA. Cultural appropriation. Wealthy white-centric standards of wellness. Spiritualized abuse of power. These are some of the mainstays of western yoga. Sybil Nance has been involved in the world of yoga since 1994 and has worked as an international teacher trainer, studio co-owner, and yoga therapist. In this episode, she shares some of her personal experiences and hard-earned insights around retreat culture, trauma-informed considerations, and culty norms like performative trauma therapy. Candice shares about her own experiences in yoga/wellness training environments and how an understanding of confirmation bias has helped her to demystify 'the practice.' Sybil grapples with her former role as a teacher trainer and how she was trained to mimic a teaching style that, upon closer inspection, was traumatizing and coercive. She speaks openly about the regret she experienced when she realized she was paying her trauma forward. She and her former colleagues have since reunited and made repairs with students they once trained, and she shares how the impact has rippled outward. More recently, Sybil was delivered a white woman wake-up call during a trip to India, and her story inspires a discussion around the insidiousness of a colonizing headspace. Finally, Sybil shares why she thinks the idea of 'making a living' as a yoga teacher is problematic and may be actively contributing to ever-increasing inequity. 

Sybil Nance has worked in the yoga world since the early 90's as a international teacher trainer, the co-founder of a small boutique yoga studio, and a teacher trainer in yoga therapy. Currently Sybil offers small virtual programs supporting women as a spiritual mentor. She is trauma informed and she sits with women as they uncover their story of origin trauma patterns. She is a mom, step mom, sister, daughter, aunt, and grandmother. She is open to the work of repair and is fascinated in how varied and spectacular that work is. 

web: lovesybil.com | IG: @sybil_sukha

Referenced in this episode:

• Practice And All Is Coming: Abuse, Cult Dynamics, and Healing In Yoga And Beyond, by Matthew Remski
• American Detox: The Myth of Wellness, by Kerri Kelly
• Embrace Yoga’s Roots: Courageous Ways To Deepen Your Yoga Practice, by Susanna Barkataki | Susanna Barkataki on Instagram
• Bikram: Yogi, Guru, Predator (Netflix)

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates. 

The ‘cult’ure series continues with a Patreon Sampler, a carefully-curated sneak peek at what’s been happening in the deconstructing dogma series - streaming exclusively over on Patreon. Every week, Candice sits down with friends and former colleagues to critically examine culty indoctrination in the wellness world, and you can now access 14+ hours of bonus content over on Patreon. This episode features some of the best moments from those convos to date, including excerpts from a dozen episodes with regular contributor, Tracy Stamper. She and Candice have been unlearning out loud as part of their cult recovery. Excerpts include: a critical look at day-one Org teachings and what happens when helpful tools meant to liberate self-expression do just the opposite; coercive marketing and recruitment practices and how they’re used to justify exploitative labor practices down the road (and up the hierarchy); culty language and how damn difficult it can be to lose the lingo and learn to think critically again; and ‘triple isolation’ what it is and how to recover from it.

You'll hear more from Monica Welty in a Patreon-exclusive bonus where she and Candice continue their main feed conversation and discuss how to make meaning without making shit up. Former Org trainer, Maria Skinner, joins the pod and poses some hard questions about Org leadership and the differences between transparency and TMI. Also, a sample from a recent two-part Patreon release with yoga mentor and former yoga teacher trainer, Sybil Nance. Sybil and Candice discuss retreat red flags and how to make repairs in the aftermath of our inherited trauma. And then the episode wraps with an intro to Susan McCulley, who’s up next in the deconstructing dogma series. 

Patreon donations keep the podcast ad-free. If you're interested in learning more, visit patreon.com/thedeeperpulse.

Support the show

The stories and opinions shared in this episode are based on personal experience and are not intended to malign any individual, group, or organization.

Join The Deeper Pulse at Patreon for weekly bonus episodes + other exclusive bonus content. Follow The Deeper Pulse on IG @thedeeperpulse + @candiceschutter for more regular updates.