Sean talks with journalist Jordan Ritter Conn about his book “American Men,” an intimate look at four men trying to figure out what manhood and masculinity have given them versus what they have cost them, and what to do with the gap between the men they think they’re supposed to be and the men they actually are. They talk about being fathers and sons as well as about violence, shame, ambition, male friendship, loneliness, and why being a “good man” might mean finally letting go of the desire to perform manhood.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling)

Guest: Jordan Ritter Conn (@jordanconn)

We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show.

And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.

Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices