Our kids aren't listening to our lectures; they are watching our lives. They are looking to see if the God we talk about in the car is the same one who influences our patience in the kitchen.

If our faith doesn't have 'boots on the ground' in the mundane moments of fatherhood, it won't have any weight when our kids hit the storms of their own lives. We have to move from being 'church day Believers' to 'Everyday Priests' of our own households.

James Moffitt is the founder of Father’s Refuge. James has dedicated his life to helping men build a spiritual sanctuary within their own four walls. He’s here to talk about the 'Practical Priesthood'—how to model a faith that is durable, relatable, and, most importantly, worth following.

You can visit Father's Refuge, listen to his podcast and connect with James here: https://www.fathersrefuge.com/

To be a guest on The Fatherhood Challenge visit: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:03.35

Jonathan Guerrero

We often talk about faith as if it's we talk about faith as if it's a church morning event. A set of beliefs we pull out of the drawer once a week. But for a father, faith isn't a ceremony.

00:16.12

Jonathan Guerrero

It's the invisible infrastructure of the home. It's the framework that determines how you handle a lost job, how you respond to disrespectful teenagers, and how you treat your wife when you're both exhausted at 6 p.m. on a Tuesday.

00:30.58

Jonathan Guerrero

The reality is that our kids aren't listening to our lectures. They are watching our lives. They are looking to see if the God we talk about in the car is the same one who influences our patients in the kitchen.

00:44.18

Jonathan Guerrero

If our faith doesn't have boots on the ground in the mundane moments of fatherhood, it won't have any weight when our kids hit the storms of their own lives. We have to move from being church day believers to everyday priests of our own households. My guest is going to take us to school on how we can do that in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.

01:48.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. My co-host Isaac has the day off. He gets the day off all the time. I think it's part of the perks of the organization while I got to go to work. Just kidding. This doesn't feel like work to me. I really enjoy being here or i wouldn't waste my time and yours. Today, we are joined by James Moffitt, the founder of Father's Refuge. James has dedicated his life to helping men build a spiritual sanctuary within their own four walls. He's here to talk about the practical priesthood, how to model a faith that is durable, reliable, and most importantly, worth following.

02:26.23

Jonathan Guerrero

James, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

02:30.17

James Moffitt

Jonathan, thank you for having me on your show.

02:34.01

Jonathan Guerrero

So here's my favorite question. What is your favorite dad joke?

02:39.29

James Moffitt

Oh my, I have a whole bunch. Let's see.

02:43.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Awesome. The more the better.

02:45.43

James Moffitt

Okay. How many do you want?

02:48.65

Jonathan Guerrero

Let's start with two.

02:50.23

James Moffitt

Okay. So, so why did the, why did the coach go to the bank?

02:55.45

Jonathan Guerrero

Why did the coach go to the bank? I'm not really sure.

03:00.18

James Moffitt

To get his quarterback.

03:05.75

Jonathan Guerrero

I love that one. What's the next one?

03:10.01

James Moffitt

so So why are football stadiums always hot after the game?

03:16.41

Jonathan Guerrero

have no idea.

03:18.55

James Moffitt

All the fans leave.

03:19.93

Jonathan Guerrero

for it. I have no idea.

03:23.90

James Moffitt

ah got I got one more good one.

03:25.50

Jonathan Guerrero

go for it

03:27.99

James Moffitt

Why did the Scarecrow win an award?

03:32.38

Jonathan Guerrero

have no idea

03:34.46

James Moffitt

He was outstanding in his field.

03:39.80

Jonathan Guerrero

You are on a roll, James.

03:42.87

James Moffitt

Yeah, I have about 30 of them.

03:44.70

Jonathan Guerrero

That's awesome.

03:46.17

James Moffitt

Yeah.

03:48.57

Jonathan Guerrero

Well, James, when men hear the word priest or spiritual leader, they often think of a pulpit or a robe. How do you define a father's practical priesthood in the context of changing oil or disciplining a toddler or managing a household budget?

04:07.70

James Moffitt

um I think that ah think that our faith is made up of, um I guess I would say that it's where the rubber meets the road. i mean, we we read the Bible, we go to church, we go to Bible study.

04:27.95

James Moffitt

You know, I've been saved since I was... uh, 17 years old and now I'm 64 and, and I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior by chopping block out in the woods.

04:40.92

James Moffitt

And a friend of mine's father was a, he was a, um, voluntary, voluntary firefighter and chaplain for the fire department in Quinlan, Texas.

04:53.05

James Moffitt

And, uh, I had a, I had a pretty rough childhood and the Lord put some Christian believers, uh, in my, uh, class, you know, I was in high school and, you know, middle school class, you know, high school. And, and anyway, I had a rough, a rough in my teenage years were kind of rough and, uh, God saw fit to put some, uh, believers in my path. And, uh,

05:23.51

James Moffitt

I was always hanging out with him. I was like a, you know, i was like ah a moth drawn to a flame. And I didn't know. i didn't i didn't know anything about it. you know I just knew that I was attracted to those those kids. and And now looking back, I know it was the Holy Spirit that was drawing me to them.

05:43.48

James Moffitt

And they spoke life into me, and they encouraged me, and they told me about Jesus. And they told me that you know my life was worth something and that God had a plan for my life.

05:56.82

James Moffitt

and that all culminated in that moment when I was, you know, out in the woods with, I guess, Ida Colombrito's dad. I don't remember what his name is or was. He's no longer with us. But he led me in the sinner's prayer, and and I didn't understand the theology of all of that.

06:18.52

James Moffitt

But I knew that a weight was lifted off my shoulders and that, you know, I knew that Jesus was the Lord of my life and that my sins were forgiven And my parents, who were secular parents, did not appreciate that. And they didn't, they were like, I told them I was saved. And they were like, saved what from drowning?

06:36.57

James Moffitt

And I actually was forbidden to associate myself with them because my parents thought that they were quacks, you know, religious zealots, whatever you want to say.

06:47.45

James Moffitt

so anyway, um... I got saved and um got out of high school, moved to Houston, Texas when I was 18, 19 years old. And I went through a period of time where i had a ah saved in heaven card or or admit one to heaven, right? It was a little, just a little salvation card I had in my wallet that I would pull out. And, and I had a situation where

07:20.22

James Moffitt

I lost my job, lost my place to live, didn't have a car. I wound up under a bridge ah with three plastic bags to my name, wound up at the Star of Hope Mission, and i had to listen to the salvation message before I could go eat and before they would let us out to go look for work.

07:39.64

James Moffitt

And i kept asking i kept kept asking god I'm like, why me Lord? What have what have i done to deserve this? And in 45 days, you know, you you you listen to the, you know, you did, the churches would come in and they do the singing, they bring the gospel message. You could talk to counselors.

07:59.54

James Moffitt

So anyway, one day i got the message and the still quiet voice in my heart said, James, it's not what you have done. It's what you haven't done. And i was like, well, what do you mean? I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. i understand the gospel.

08:15.06

James Moffitt

i read the Bible all the time. i understand all of this. And so basically I was told it's not what you haven't done. It's not what you've done. It's what you haven't done.

08:25.75

James Moffitt

And what I hadn't done was was that my my name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life and that God had a purpose for my life. And his purpose was for me to follow him and to to live his will, to let his will become alive in my life. And that was an epiphany.

08:42.94

James Moffitt

Now, I guess I was about 22, 23 years old when I had that, a I guess you could call it a Damascus Road experience. and And so I was able to get off the streets. I was able to get a job as a security officer way back when, went on to get into law enforcement,

09:02.62

James Moffitt

And so my wife and I got married in May the 21st of 1990. Now, this was my second wife.

09:14.59

James Moffitt

My first wife and I were married for about a year and a half to two years. We were really young. We should have never gotten married. But we had a son named Jeremy. from that marriage who passed away in January of 2025.

09:29.82

James Moffitt

And so anyway, that, that relationship just kind of burned on the side of the road. And, um, it was, ah it was basically a dump dumpster fire.

09:42.17

James Moffitt

But anyway, my current wife and I, we've been married almost 36 years. We've had four children. And when I got married to Katie, of Our first daughter, Jessica, who also has passed away in 2001, she was a premature child, and she was like, i don't know,

10:07.06

James Moffitt

I want to say three months and two days or something like that. She was a little tiny thing. And she was at the women's hospital in Houston, Texas. My wife and I met, we met in a first Baptist church, Katie freeway.

10:20.41

James Moffitt

This is like the second largest Baptist church in Houston. And when when you become a father, you don't get a manual. you know, they pat you on the head, they wrap the baby in the, you know, in the blanket and they, you know, they kind of look for danger signs or whatever to make sure you're not going to do anything stupid. And, and, you know, they give you the kid and send you on your way. There's no manual. And as you know, uh, uh, you can forget sleep for a while.

10:51.70

James Moffitt

You know, you have a crying baby on your hands or colicky. They're, know, they're, all sorts of things happen, you know, with children and with babies, especially. And so you just kind of wing You, unless you're fortunate to have grandparents that can, that you can go to, to talk to and say, Hey, what am I supposed to do about this or whatever?

11:12.02

James Moffitt

And I chase rabbits a lot. So you you may have to drag me back out onto the, onto the road. But ah anyway, um i really forgot your question. What was your question?

11:26.74

Jonathan Guerrero

How do you define a father's practical priesthood in the context of changing the oil and disciplining a child or managing a household budget? So basically the everyday mundane things.

11:39.83

James Moffitt

Well, like I told you, like I told you earlier, um hindsight's 20-20, and I can, I'm an expert at telling fathers what not to do.

11:51.99

James Moffitt

Not necessarily an expert on what to do, you know, and I've kind of, I kind of learned as I went, and, um, you wind up, you wind up raising your children like you were raised because that's, what's kind of baked into our psyche. Right.

12:09.85

James Moffitt

And, uh, because I was raised by secular parents, uh, I have still had a lot of that in me and I, luckily I had the Holy spirit in me that was able to give me guidance when I would run off the road, you know, and turn into a raging dumpster fire.

12:28.86

James Moffitt

and um, I guess I would say that that all of your all of the knowledge that you have in your head about the Bible, it's really kind of worthless unless you can put it into action.

12:46.46

James Moffitt

and And so I knew, you know, when we started having children, on you that ah knew that I had the propensity to properly act In other words, my father didn't my father didn't demonstrate love towards us as kids. We were adopted from an orphanage in Germany.

13:06.84

James Moffitt

My adoptive parents provided a roof over our heads. They provided food, new school clothes, school books, all everything that we needed physically, they provided. But they didn't provide the love. They didn't demonstrate love towards us as children. Does that make sense?

13:23.32

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah. Yeah, it does.

13:24.89

James Moffitt

So...

13:25.40

Jonathan Guerrero

It does make a lot of sense. So you're just reacting in your parenting journey to your own experience of of how you grew up.

13:35.03

James Moffitt

Right.

13:34.97

Jonathan Guerrero

But so when you look back retroactively, were there are moments where you think the Holy Spirit was teaching you as you were parenting and then helping you really correct some things and make some different decisions?

13:51.13

James Moffitt

Well, what I did as as a young father is I learned, i I knew that I knew that I knew that I didn't want to, I didn't want to be heavy handed and I didn't want to be yelling or screaming at my children.

14:04.06

James Moffitt

I didn't want to be reacting in in anger. And so I started listening to James Dobson. And he's a Christian psychologist, and he has a lot of great material on parenting. And I started listening to that on a regular basis. And so I i sort of learned how to be a good father to my children through the things I was learning through James Dobson. And also, you know, at the same time, I'm going to church, reading my Bible, listening to Bible studies, ah and all of that sort of thing. And and so so that that helped me tremendously when it came to to demonstrating love towards my children. Now, was I a perfect father? No.

14:46.81

James Moffitt

by no stretch of the imagination. Did I make mistakes? Absolutely. Did I, did I react in anger sometimes when the kids did something silly or stupid? Yes, I did. and there were there were, there were times that I had to ask for forgiveness.

15:05.56

James Moffitt

I had to go to my kids. I had to go to my wife and go, you know, I didn't react correctly in that in that situation. I should have reacted differently. And i should have I should have had more patience and I should have shown a little more mercy and grace towards my children that I did.

15:23.93

James Moffitt

you know and and so and i I also my children. i also exercised a lot of transparency with my children And I sat them down and I let them know, hey, you know, when I was 21 years old, I was a dumpster fire. Or or when I was 16 or 17 years old, I was a dumpster fire. And this is what I did. These are the mistakes that I made.

15:45.24

James Moffitt

and And these are things that I want you to know about me so that hopefully you don't make those mistakes.

15:54.10

Jonathan Guerrero

I love that you were so open with your kids, so vulnerable with them about your own past. A lot of dads are really ashamed to talk about their mistakes to their kids.

16:05.56

Jonathan Guerrero

And I think that a lot of kids really respect their dads for being able to be so open because I think there's an unspoken understanding that the intention behind that vulnerability is because the dads really love them and want them to avoid those same mistakes and to live long and have a successful life. So I think that's really awesome that you are willing to do that.

16:32.70

James Moffitt

Well, we we what do we want what do fathers want for their children? they want they want our they We want our children to have it better than we had it. We don't want them to make the same mistakes.

16:43.10

Jonathan Guerrero

eggs Exactly. i heard it once said, that a father is the only person in a man's life the only person in a man's life who wants his son to be better than him than he was no other male in your life wants you better than them only your father

17:11.99

James Moffitt

Right. I agree.

17:16.02

Jonathan Guerrero

You said that a father's actions are his child's first Bible. If your kids only had your reactions to stress and failure to judge God by, what kind of God would they believe in? How do you make a durable reflection from that experience?

17:34.71

James Moffitt

Well, I mean, how do we how do we oh How do we teach children grace? How do we teach them mercy? How do we teach them compassion?

17:46.84

James Moffitt

How do we teach them the importance of truth? How do we teach them what it means to be a good husband? How do we, especially for boys or young men, how do we teach them how important it is to respect our wives and to treat them the way that the Bible says that we should treat them?

18:09.11

James Moffitt

And the only way to do that is not lip service. Yeah, we can we can preach to our children. We can teach them. We can say, oh don't do as I do. Do as I say. But, you know, kids are like sponges, and they watch every single thing that you say and do.

18:27.80

James Moffitt

And I believe that... we should be cognizant of that fact and that we should, we should model those characteristics in front of our children so that they, they will see what the truth is.

18:45.02

James Moffitt

Right. Because if we, if we have the motto or if we say, don't do as I do, do as I say, then we're, then we're, we're teaching them,

18:58.03

James Moffitt

a duality. We're teaching them something wrong. You know, it's, it's, it's not right. You know, especially for, especially if we're in Christ and if we're, we're believers in Christ and we're followers of Jesus, then, then we should be, you know, exhibiting the fruits of the spirit that it talks about in Corinthians, love, joy, peace, gentleness.

19:21.72

James Moffitt

I don't have them all memorized anymore, but you know what I'm talking about.

19:26.23

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And when I look at that text, I've had to reread it a few times. And there's one detail in that text that all the times I've read it, I've missed.

19:39.64

Jonathan Guerrero

And it's the fact that nowhere in that scripture text does it say that you produce the fruits. It's not you.

19:49.33

James Moffitt

Right, exactly.

19:49.93

Jonathan Guerrero

It's the Holy Spirit that produces that fruit in you.

19:50.78

James Moffitt

Right.

19:54.36

Jonathan Guerrero

So you have one job and one job alone. And your job is to ask for the Holy Spirit, to renew your mind with the Holy Spirit every single day. And then just let go, just trust and have faith that the Holy Spirit will do what was promised and produce that fruit in you. And then you look back on your day and not everything will be perfect because you're a human being, a sinful human being still, but you'll still be able to look back and see elements in your day where there was grace,

20:23.45

Jonathan Guerrero

where you were gentle when normally that's not your nature, where you had self-control when normally you're impulsive. So you'll be able to see all of those fruits. And then little by little each day, as you develop that as a habit, you really begin to grow.

20:40.28

Jonathan Guerrero

And then as a father, as you're exercising that, like your kids going to be watching that too. So when you're open about your own journey in trying to have that fruit produced in you,

20:52.22

Jonathan Guerrero

and you're And the kids see, they see you taking those steps. They're going to feel more confident that they can do the same thing. So I think that's a really big part of that silent sermon that you preach, where you model it for them instead of just teaching them verbally.

21:14.39

Jonathan Guerrero

Your organization is called Father's Refuge. In a culture that is increasingly chaotic and often hostile to faith, how does a dad practically turn his four walls into that refuge where his kids feel spiritually safe?

21:32.12

James Moffitt

Well, I created, ah created father's refuge because of our loss of our daughter to cancer back in 2001. And i wanted a safe place for fathers to be able to talk about the loss and the grief and the emotions and, how their households are flipped upside down and all of that.

21:57.66

James Moffitt

um

22:00.59

James Moffitt

And I as I think about that mission and that vision and to try to answer your question, i think that i think that fathers, and I think the home, the home itself, the father's the head of the the household, right? And so i think that I think fathers should be creating a safe haven or a refuge for their families, for the wife, for the children,

22:28.12

James Moffitt

And there's this there's a something something that I learned early on in ministry, and it's this thing called compassion. And I have it written in all of my Bibles, and are most of them anyway. And it says, people don't care how much you know and until they know how much how much you care.

22:45.89

Jonathan Guerrero

I love that quote.

22:47.29

James Moffitt

Yeah, people don't people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So so what that means is is that we can't beat people up with with the Bible. The Bible is not an offensive weapon that we can use to to badger people or judge people or frighten people into the kingdom.

23:09.11

James Moffitt

And so I learned that we're supposed to be the feet the hands and feet of Jesus, not only not only to our families, but to our coworkers, to the people we go to church with. We go to the gym, to the grocery store.

23:22.62

James Moffitt

God places us in a community, and we are to be the hands and feet of Jesus to everybody. And what does what does Paul say? He says we should be all things to all people. And, and had a pastor, a friend of mine, we went to, it was Grace Fellowship Church in Goose Creek. And we went there for 15 or 16 years. And he was the pastor there when we lost our daughter to cancer. And um during one of our men's breakfast meetings, he asked me if I understood what the, what the, what was it called?

23:57.24

James Moffitt

Oh, psychology of need. And I was like, no, I don't think I really understand that. And he said, the psychology of need is is if somebody comes to you and they have a need and you don't meet that need and all you do is you preach at them or preach to them.

24:14.07

James Moffitt

He says, they if they're hungry, you need to feed them. if they need If they need clothes if they need to clothes washed, wash their clothes, give them clothes. You know, if you if they need if they need somebody to love on them, then you love on them.

24:27.80

James Moffitt

And he says, until you do those things, those people are not going to hear anything you have to say. And that's that all that all wraps back around to we're supposed to be the the hands and feet of Jesus to our wives, our children, to all the people in our community.

24:35.63

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah.

24:47.83

James Moffitt

And and will we get it right all the time, every day? No, because we're human and we make mistakes. But we learn from those mistakes and we go to God we say, God, please forgive me of my sin.

24:59.26

James Moffitt

Help me to turn away from that sin and help me to to do your will. Help me to be who you want me to be be today.

25:08.63

Jonathan Guerrero

What should a father do when his child asks a hard question about faith that he doesn't know the answer to? Is it weaker to admit you don't know? or is it actually a form of spirit of spiritual leadership?

25:22.58

James Moffitt

I think it's okay for a father to be honest, but you can't, you you can't say, i don't know. without working with the child and say, and just say, i don't know, son or daughter or whatever.

25:37.46

James Moffitt

i don't know, but I know who does know, you know, and you can get your Bible out. You know, we've got access to artificial intelligence. We have, you know, we've got, you know, all sorts of literature and Bible study aids and all of that. And we can use that as a teaching moment, not only for ourselves, but but for our children. we can we can We can show them the importance of finding out what the truth is.

26:04.18

Jonathan Guerrero

I love that because then that moment actually turns into a Bible study that you both do together.

26:11.21

James Moffitt

Right.

26:14.46

Jonathan Guerrero

How does a dad model a prayer life that isn't just a wish list to God, but a tactical conversation about guidance and strength? Should kids see us on our knees or is that too private?

26:28.36

James Moffitt

I think it's twofold. I think... I think, you know, either we're either going to be a glass half empty or half half full, or, or you know, the best situation would be you want our glass to be full. And what I'm talking about is is that we can't teach the importance of prayer to our children if we don't have a prayer life.

26:55.90

James Moffitt

But if we have a if we have a good prayer life and and we work at ah consistency in our own prayer life, then we'll be able to teach our our children the importance of that consistency and of of that being consistent in prayer and talking to God every day and asking asking God for protection or whatever that

27:22.58

James Moffitt

you know, whatever the need is in our lie in their lives or whatever. ah And I also want to say that, you know, God is not a grocery store. We can't always just go to him because we want things, you know, blab it, grab it sort of mentality.

27:38.36

James Moffitt

You know, ah we have to teach them that sometimes when we ask God for things or ask him to open doors and situations in our life, His timing is not our timing.

27:51.06

James Moffitt

You know, we have to be we have to be patient and reverent and ah wait on on God to teach us what we need to learn in that moment and be able to walk turn the doorknob and open it when he opens doors for us.

28:11.37

Jonathan Guerrero

At Father's Refuge, you focus on the journey of manhood. What are some spiritual milestones a dad should be looking to mark his children's lives as they grow towards independence? I think one that personally comes to mind would be baptism.

28:28.82

James Moffitt

Yeah, think I think baptism is important in that it it tells the world that, hey, at one point in my life I was dead to sin, but now I'm reborn.

28:42.81

James Moffitt

ah You know, the act of going under the water and coming back up is is a a manifestation of God's rejuvenating us and filling us with the Holy Spirit and and making a new creature out of us.

28:57.72

James Moffitt

And i think that that is an important milestone in a child's life. And i think that, I think it's important that children um grow in grace and grow in maturity and they're, you know,

29:18.30

James Moffitt

What does the Bible says say? It says that we're we are we're no longer children, that we should stop acting like children and we start should start acting like you know godly men and godly women. and And I think that's, again, something that mom and dad need to model in the and the the household so that kids can see that.

29:41.21

Jonathan Guerrero

James, how can dads listening find father's refuge and what resources will they find there?

29:48.54

James Moffitt

ah They go to the website, fathersrefuge.com, and it's got all the information there. All the episodes are there. And what will they find there? They will find stories of fathers who have walked through um the loss ah of their children or their wives, you know, loss and grief, basically. And they'll find, prayer is they'll find hope.

30:18.01

James Moffitt

And they will understand that life is not over for them and that they can move on and, you know, they can um lean on their faith.

30:29.46

James Moffitt

if If they are the type of people, if they're born again, if they're if they're Christians and obviously they they have ah their faith in God and And ah we also encourage them to, you know, dial 211 and get a hold of um um United Way and find out what programs are out there that can help them. And and there's in the South, there's a church on every corner. So you can always start going, you know, to church and see what kind of pastoral care programs that they might have to help them.

31:00.89

Jonathan Guerrero

One of the things I'm really passionate about is making resources available to fathers. So if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com.

31:12.22

Jonathan Guerrero

If you go to this episode and you are

31:19.66

Jonathan Guerrero

are looking for the episode called James Moffitt on Modeling Faith, James Moffitt on Modeling Faith. Look for that episode. Go right below the episode description. And I'm going to have the link to Father's Refuge posted right there for your convenience.

31:36.09

Jonathan Guerrero

So James, as we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

31:42.94

James Moffitt

Well, it's funny you would ask that because I put some thought into that recently. And so i would just tell fathers to love your children, to be the hands and feet of Jesus to them, love them, demonstrate love to them, hug them, let them sit in your lap.

32:02.68

James Moffitt

You know, fathers, fathers are, we're kind of geared towards preparing our children for real life. for entering out into the world and getting jobs and going to college and do all, doing all of these things and helping them to mature and do all of this stuff and learn all of these skills.

32:22.10

James Moffitt

But I think, I think the important thing is, is that, you know, i our children are human and they're, they're not perfect and they're going to make mistakes. So, you know, don't do what I did.

32:35.96

James Moffitt

You know, d do whatever you can to love them and support them and help them to ah move into, you know, being a young adult, you know, 16, 17, 18, into their 20s. And fathers, we're always going to be a father. Even though our kids may move out of our house, they may go to college, they may get a job, they may may move across the country. or whatever, always be available to them, whether it's an email, a phone call, whatever. just

33:07.13

James Moffitt

Just always be there for your kids and love them, no matter what.

33:14.11

Jonathan Guerrero

I've had a great conversation with James Moffitt and the message is clear. Your family's faith isn't built in the sanctuary. It's built in the living room. You are the priest of your home, the architect of your family's spiritual infrastructure. Whether you feel qualified or not, your kids are looking to you to see if the faith you claim is a durable foundation or just a decorative addition.

33:39.16

Jonathan Guerrero

Tonight, Don't worry about having the perfect theological answer. Just show up. Lead the prayer. Share the struggles and let your kids see a man who follows a king.

33:52.98

Jonathan Guerrero

Your presence is the first sermon that they will ever believe. A massive, massive thank you to James Moffitt for his work at Father's Refuge. You can find his resources at thefatherhoodchallenge.com right below this episode description.

34:07.93

Jonathan Guerrero

And join the mission at fathersrefuge.com. Until next time, stay durable, stay faithful, and remember that you are building a legacy that will echo for generations.

34:20.34

Jonathan Guerrero

We will see you in the next episode.



For a long time, we were told that a 'strong' father was a stoic one—a man who suppressed his emotions until they inevitably leaked out as anger or withdrawal. But the truth is, true strength isn't found in suppression; it’s found in Self-Regulation.

When we talk about Emotional Intelligence, or EQ, we aren't talking about being 'soft.' We’re talking about being an Emotional Anchor. Your kids are looking at you to see how a man handles frustration, how he navigates disappointment, and how he reconciles after a mistake. If you can’t lead your own heart, you can’t expect to lead theirs. My guest will explain why and how every dad can learn to be a soothing presence in his house and how this helps teach emotional language to their kids so they act out less.

Dr. David Marcus, the founder of ParentRx is a seasoned professional in clinical psychology with a strong background in research, therapy, and community engagement. He earned his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the University of Louisville. Dr. Marcus is a veteran in the field of family dynamics who helps parents move from 'Reactive' to 'Intentional.

You can visit Parent RX at: http://parentrx.org/

Email Dr. Marcus at [email protected]

To be a guest on The Fatherhood Challenge visit: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge





When we see our child struggling with a math problem, fumbling with their shoelaces, or facing a social conflict on the playground, every instinct in our bodies screams at us to step in. We want to be the hero. We want to be the 'Protector' who smooths the path and removes the pain. But what if our 'help' is actually an act of sabotage? So how are we supposed to just bypass our fixing nature and how are we supposed to know when it’s appropriate to do so?

Jody Hill is a confidence coach and an expert in child development who helps parents move from 'The Rescuer' to 'The Resource.' She’s here to show us how to pivot our fatherhood strategy, moving from fixing the problem to forming the child.

Get the free Confidence Boosters & Busters Guide here: https://podcast.itsjodyhill.com/

To learn more about Jody's work and get her book visit: https://www.itsjodyhill.com/

Follow Jody on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/jodyhillparenting/

To be a guest on The Fatherhood Challenge visit: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:02.62

Jonathan Guerrero

As fathers, our biological our biological hardwiring is set to fix. When we see our children struggle we see our child struggling with a math problem, fumbling with their shoelaces, or facing a social conflict in the playground, every instinct in our body screams at us to step in.

00:20.98

Jonathan Guerrero

We want to be the hero. We want to be the protector who soothes the path and smooths out the path and removes the pain. We think we're being good dads. We think we're showing them love.

00:33.34

Jonathan Guerrero

But what our help is actually But what if our help is actually an act of sabotage? Every time we step in too early, we steal the wind from our children. We take away the moment where they realize they are capable, resilient, and resourceful.

00:49.62

Jonathan Guerrero

When we remove the obstacle, we inadvertently send a message, I don't think you can handle this without me. Over time, that well-intentioned protection builds a foundation of self-doubt rather than self-confidence.

01:03.22

Jonathan Guerrero

So how are we supposed to just bypass our fixing nature and how are we supposed to know when it's appropriate for us to do so? Our guest is going to bring some answers in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.

01:58.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my son and co-host Isaac. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge. Today we are also joined by our guest Jody Hill. Jody is a confidence coach and an expert in child development who helps parents move from the rescuer to the resource.

02:16.21

Jonathan Guerrero

She's here to show us how to pivot our fatherhood strategy, moving from fixing the problem to forming the child to forming the child. Jody, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

02:26.84

Jody

Hey guys, thank you so much for having me. i absolutely love what you guys are doing on this podcast and I'm so glad to be here.

02:35.00

Jonathan Guerrero

Jody, the first question burning on my mind and probably the minds of listeners is how in the world did you get the passion to become a confidence coach? There has to be a story. What is that story?

02:48.38

Jody

So it really began when i was going through a really tough challenge when my kids were young. So i was going through a divorce and my youngest was two and I had three-year-old, almost five-year-old and an almost seven-year-old. So really little children.

03:06.33

Jody

And the divorce at this point was inevitable. And what really got me started on this journey was hearing these divorce statistics about children, like children of divorced homes will be like X, Y, Z. And it was so negative. And I was like, okay, I see this as the reality And this is something that's really hard that I'm going to have to navigate my children through.

03:32.57

Jody

And yet it doesn't have to be their demise. And this is also life, right? Like life is going to have really hard things and it's going to have challenges.

03:43.29

Jody

So I was, you know, asking myself, how can I raise children who are confident, who are capable, and who can thrive through life's challenges. And that is really what started me on this journey.

03:58.78

Jody

And of like seeing, okay, what tools do I have? Do I need to get? Do I need to learn to really equip my children? And that's what led me to my messaging and writing a book on this because I, as I was learning these resources and tools, I knew that it was so powerful for other parents to grasp this as well.

04:18.98

Jody

So that is what started me on my journey.

04:24.36

Jonathan Guerrero

That's really cool. That's really cool. And it turned into a book as well. We're definitely gonna have to talk about that more later on in the episode.

04:31.54

Jody

Yeah. Yeah.

04:31.64

Jonathan Guerrero

We often tell ourselves that we're stepping in to save them from frustration or failure.

04:37.02

Jody

Yeah.

04:37.08

Jonathan Guerrero

What is the long term cost of safety that a child pays when they never have to navigate a difficult moment alone?

04:45.53

Jody

Yeah. And that is such a great question because, you know, as parents, most of us love our children. I think it's safe to say that. And so we want to protect our children from being hurt, being sad, from harm. And we can't do right? We can't do that. Because if we put them in this bubble growing up, when they get out into the real world, what what in the world are going to do are they going to do? Because we haven't equipped them.

05:11.54

Jody

And I think that's what's so important about like this first strategy that we're talking about that is in my book. And it's about being our children's champion and not their savior. So I love this quote. i don't know if you've heard of this um doctor. His name is daniel amen And I saw this online and i was like, oh my gosh, this is so powerful. He says, if you do too much for your kids, you build your self-esteem by stealing theirs.

05:40.02

Jody

Let that sit there for a moment. So powerful, right?

05:43.32

Jonathan Guerrero

I have to process that. no

05:46.23

Jody

If you do too much for your kids, you build your self-esteem by stealing theirs.

05:53.62

Jonathan Guerrero

I can almost hear somebody out there reacting saying, wait a minute, it isn't that harsh parenting?

05:54.14

Jody

So powerful.

05:59.22

Jonathan Guerrero

It does kind of make sense though.

05:59.38

Jody

Yeah. Right.

06:01.22

Jonathan Guerrero

Like when you listen, like when you hear it does kind of make sense.

06:05.21

Jody

Yeah. And, and here's the thing is like, Jonathan, I'm assuming you're the same way, but I mean, Isaac, you will not know until you're a father, like how much we love our children. Like we love our children so much.

06:20.25

Jody

And it's easy for us to want to just step in and do things for them. You know, my daughter, for example, she was learning how to tie her shoes and it was time to get out the door for littles. You know, a lot's going on. It's a big effort to get kids out. And so i come across her and she is crying.

06:38.84

Jody

And I quickly assessed the situation and I realized that, oh she is upset because she's trying to tie her shoes and she can't do it. So I'm a loving mom. I love my kids. I wanna help them. I often do help them.

06:51.22

Jody

And my knee-jerk reaction in that situation would be what? I would come in and tie her shoes, right?

06:57.24

Jonathan Guerrero

yeah

06:58.07

Jody

it stops the crying. it stops the upset. I get to be the savior and help her, which I love helping my kids. And then we get out the door on time, which I love being on time, right? I value that. So anyway, so here I am like I have the situation of, okay, I can swoop in and rescue her or this can be a learning opportunity where I can encourage her and empower her to do this on her own.

07:25.72

Jody

And I chose the latter. Luckily, now I have a great story of how I did this right for my book because there are many stories where I didn't do it

07:33.01

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you.

07:34.07

Jody

But I come alongside her. And first, I just empathize with her, right? First, I'm like, oh, man, I see you're really frustrated. looks like you're trying to tie your shoe. Is that what's frustrating? And she's like, yes. I was like, I get that. I was like, I remember trying to tie my own shoes and I didn't get it right all the time either. And I totally get that, right? So one that helps soothe her, right? Meet her where she's at.

07:56.02

Jody

And then secondly, so what we do moving forward is I was like, would you like me to show you how to tie your shoe again? And would you like to do it? She's like, yes. So I show her how to do it. Then I untie it. And then i let her walk through the process. I'm right there guiding her. I'm not like, see ya. I'm right there.

08:13.21

Jody

And she ties her shoe. Like so pumped, right? She's excited. I'm excited. Such a win. And now she has the confidence knowing that Hey, I know I can tie my shoes. I've did it once already. And she probably did it a couple times before that, when you know, when we were practicing and learning.

08:30.71

Jody

And so now she's has this confidence in her. And something that I think is so important is like challenging opportunities for our kids. They become powerful opportunities to instill confidence in in them. That's how they learn. And that's how they grow.

08:47.98

Jody

It's hard for us, but it's so valuable for them. And so that's what I mean, where it's like we get to champion them and not save them and rescue them from hard things.

08:59.99

Jonathan Guerrero

So let's back up a little bit. There's something I want to key in on if and make sure I heard correctly.

09:05.34

Jody

Yeah.

09:05.40

Jonathan Guerrero

Your daughter actually didn't want you to tie her shoe for her. She actually wanted to tie her own shoe. She just wanted you to to walk her through the steps as she did it herself.

09:19.06

Jody

Yeah, she's in this situation where she doesn't remember how to do it. And it's so easy for her to take the messaging of like, oh, I'm not smart. I can't do this. Right. And so I gave her the choice. And I mean, honestly, sometimes my children just want me to do it for them. And that's when I get to stand by them and be their cheerleader.

09:37.94

Jody

Like I've had my younger son before trying to do something. he's like, this is too hard. And I'm like, dude, I was like, you can do hard things. I've seen you try again and again at things. And I know you can do this. So sometimes they want me to show them. And sometimes they just want me to do it for them. And I'm like, you got this, dude. i will be here. I'll be your cheerleader. i will champion you. And you've got this.

10:03.35

Jonathan Guerrero

you know that actually kind of reminded me of something similar to the situation. it wasn't

10:07.45

Jody

Yeah.

10:08.31

Jonathan Guerrero

it wasn't exactly the situation. it was a bit more different from that. But um I remember one time, we were at our public pool. And i remember I went off the highest dive that we have there.

10:20.47

Jonathan Guerrero

and it was kind of And it was kind of similar to the situation.

10:20.65

Jody

Dang.

10:24.15

Jonathan Guerrero

And my only goal, and this was 14 feet deep since you were diving from a really high diving board.

10:24.86

Jody

Hmm.

10:31.10

Jody

Cheese.

10:31.93

Jonathan Guerrero

So it was 14 feet deep. And my only goal was just to get to the bottom of it. I remember my dad.

10:36.76

Jody

Or to make it out alive. ah

10:38.65

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, I remember a couple of times.

10:39.35

Jody

Wow.

10:40.84

Jonathan Guerrero

I was just barely in breath when I came up. But anyway, remember my dad was there on the side of the pool.

10:44.03

Jody

Wow.

10:47.46

Jonathan Guerrero

And he and I kept on. And every time I jumped up, um I went all the way down. And I tried to get to the bottom. when I came back up, he kept on saying, you're almost there. You almost hit the bottom almost every time.

10:59.58

Jonathan Guerrero

I mean, I didn't accomplish my goal that day and I still haven't, but it it was just kind of cool.

11:05.34

Jody

When you came up and your dad was saying those words to you, like, how did that make you feel?

11:13.08

Jonathan Guerrero

Confident. It made me feel confident because I know that I'm almost there. I know that I to jump maybe just a bit higher or maybe just kind make my body bit more aerodynamic.

11:19.61

Jody

Yeah.

11:23.19

Jody

Yeah. And how would you have felt If your dad instead was like, I can't believe you're not getting it. Why don't you just try harder? Like, how would that make you feel?

11:34.70

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh geez. um That'd be disencouraging, I guess I could say. Yeah.

11:41.82

Jody

Yeah, that's one way to put it, right? Like, totally just, I mean, when we have energy and like confidence in ourselves, we feel like we can keep doing it and keep trying it. But then when someone's just speaking like so negatively to us, like for me personally, when that happens, like it just feels like the life is sucked out of me and it just feels so defeating.

12:02.68

Jody

Yeah. And I know you're going to get it. I'm excited to hear when you do. Have you done it yet since then?

12:08.31

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah. Nope.

12:10.07

Jody

Okay, let me know when. hey

12:14.78

Jonathan Guerrero

What are the physical or emotional tell tells a dad should should look for in himself that signal he's about to overstep and steal the the struggle?

12:27.32

Jody

Oh, that's a really good question.

12:32.31

Jody

I think it's really important. Well, I think one is just to pay attention to yourself, right? Like pay attention to your body, pay attention to what's going on with you. And i think many men and women, I mean, humans, I think can do a better job of checking in with themselves.

12:50.39

Jody

And so what I would ask is what is your, like in that moment, like you see your child struggling or something, like in that moment, what is going on for you?

13:01.30

Jody

Because sometimes our the reason that we step in is because of a selfish motivation. Yeah, it may be because we want to feel good about ourselves for like you know helping our children.

13:13.78

Jody

But as fathers and as mothers, like but I'll speak to the fathers, like as fathers, there may be something from our childhood that is that is creating us to like overreact in situations. So like let me create a hypothetical example. Okay, say your son's on the baseball team.

13:30.97

Jody

and he is like swinging and he is like striking out or say he's at practice, right? And he keeps striking out. And maybe that was a part of your story where you felt in baseball or in a certain sport that you were not good enough. And so here you are you're observing your son and you feel like your own childhood is being reenacted through your son. And you're like, crap,

13:55.42

Jody

he's going to fail. He's not going to do it right. He's going to feel like a failure the rest of your life, which is how you may have felt, but it doesn't mean that's true for your son. So you want to swoop in, step in tell him all the ways how to do it, swing for him, show him all the things, which that stuff is helpful, right? It's so helpful to have someone to show you and guide you, but the motive is different, right? If the motive is you showing up as a dad out of your own insecurities and putting those on your son,

14:23.83

Jody

the energy around that is going to be so different as opposed to just working through the healing of your own childhood. So you can just be present with your son and encourage him and show him from a healthier place. So I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I think it's just so important for the dad to check in with himself on the feelings that he has coming up so he can then approach his son in a healthy way, That equips him how to do it moving forward as opposed to trying to rescue him and just swoop him out of the discomfort and avoiding what could potentially be, you know, hurtful, but it's what the dad is making up about that based on his own experience. Does that make sense?

15:06.01

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, somewhat. Also, another part that kind of makes sense there was sometimes you just sometimes it just feels good to just take down your own problem to just take care of your own problems without someone having to come in and just kind of like take care of it for you. like You kind of just like that like that kind of that sense of victory in you.

15:27.63

Jonathan Guerrero

Like you just overcome something.

15:27.70

Jody

Yeah.

15:31.35

Jonathan Guerrero

ka come you' overcome something

15:32.60

Jody

Yeah. A hundred percent. And we robbed that of our children. I remember seeing some friends and they had a daughter, maybe a year and a half old.

15:45.14

Jody

And she had fallen into a basket and she was trying to get out. And she was like fussing like, help, help. And the dad just stood there and he encouraged her.

15:56.98

Jody

He was like, you can do it. Put your arm here, put your arm here. push yourself out. And she struggled a little bit and then she did it. And she got the biggest smile on her face ever.

16:11.08

Jody

and then she was like, again, and then she went back in the basket because she wanted that experience again, because it was so powerful for her. Like it was so good for her to do that and have that feeling of accomplishment, right?

16:21.59

Jonathan Guerrero

That is so cool.

16:24.15

Jody

Yeah. The coolest thing ever. and so we rob our children of that when we step in and do things for them. We can be there to cheer cheer them on, champion them. But if we take that away from them, then what are they missing out on?

16:38.65

Jonathan Guerrero

So what I'm hearing out of this is there really is no shortcut to doing your inner work. You got to do your inner work or this just isn't going to work well.

16:45.33

Jody

Hmm.

16:49.46

Jody

Yeah, it's really important as parents. You know, we can't teach our parents our children, for example, to be kind if we're not being kind. We can't teach our children how to self-regulate if we don't know how to do that because our kids pick up on what we show them. We model for them of how they become. I mean... Jonathan, I'm sure you can resonate where like, I see my kids maybe like do something. and i'm like, dang it. They learned that from me. Like, no, some things I'm really proud of, but other things I'm not proud of because they pick up on what we are modeling for them. And so it's so important for us to yes, do our own work so we can be our best for our kids.

17:31.35

Jonathan Guerrero

You talk about giving kids space. Is there a practical wait time a dad should implement before offering a solution? How do we just sit in silence in the middle of their struggle?

17:42.65

Jody

Yeah, that's really good. I think it comes down to just, you know, reading the room and like reading your child. And so what I would recommend is offering help.

17:55.22

Jody

Be like, hey, if you need me, I'm here. And then just chill. It can be so hard to jump in with our two cents and be like, oh, no, no, no, to the left, to the left, little more, little more. And just whatever they're doing, right? But like,

18:11.32

Jody

Let them know you're there and be there for them and just be quiet. Don't like give up and then walk away in another room, right? Just show them that you are going to be there and going to be present and you are willing to help and offer solutions when they need it. And these little moments like this, I mean, they start when our kids are super young, right? And if we can show that we are there to support them and encourage them when they're there and ready to ask for help, we can do that in these little moments that will carry on through adulthood and through you know through the teenage years. And as they get older that, hey, if you need anything, i am here.

18:49.33

Jody

To champion you and help you out when you're ready for it. Because, you know, like when you get advice when you don't want it, like what do you do with it? You don't do anything with it, right?

18:59.67

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, exactly. i know that you had some examples from your own experience with your daughter, but instead of saying, let me do that for you, what are three phrases a dad could use to encourage his child while still letting them hold the reins?

19:15.80

Jody

I would say like my number one phrase that I would use in this example is you can do hard things. And that just shows your child, like I can do this because yeah, like that's all they need to know.

19:29.75

Jonathan Guerrero

I like that one.

19:32.65

Jody

Like that's all we need to say is like, you can do hard things or I believe in you. Or you can also bring up a situation where they did try and it was really hard, but they kept at it and they did it again. And so you can also say something like, Hey, I have seen that when you try hard, not try hard enough, but when you work at it and keep going at it, that you'll eventually get it.

19:56.76

Jody

You've got this. And that can just be the fuel that they need.

20:02.61

Jonathan Guerrero

When a child is truly stuck and spiraling, how does a dad provide the smallest amount of help possible to get them moving again without taking over the entire task?

20:14.14

Jody

Great job. I mean, great question. So this is what I would say to that. So what I hear in that is how can I help them so they can be like at a better place to finish the job? And so what I would offer is the best way to help them in that scenario is again, not to rescue them with the task, but actually to help their emotions.

20:35.26

Jody

So when a child is super frustrated, they're dis like they're completely dysregulated, right?

20:36.21

Jonathan Guerrero

Mm-hmm.

20:41.21

Jody

like So my daughter, for example, she was crying and so upset. And so like the knee-jerk reaction to help her not cry and be upset is just to do something for her.

20:52.06

Jody

But have you ever tried to do something for a child? child like They're really upset about something, and you swoop in, and you do it really fast, and they're still upset. You're like, dude, why are you still upset?

21:02.19

Jody

I just fixed this problem for you, right? i just... So what's going on is they are mentally completely dysregulated. So they, it's when their brain shuts down and like logic can't enter. So they can't think of like, Oh, my problem was tying my shoe. Now my shoe is solved. So now I can complete getting ready to go out the door with my mom. Like that's like their brain can't even comprehend that. Right. And to remind parents like children's brains, they're don't even fully develop till they're around 21. So, right. So you really are dealing with a little child and their little brain, right? So this is what I would recommend is one, like I did with my daughter, with her shoe, meet them where they're at.

21:45.05

Jody

So your kid is really frustrated about something. Just be like, Oh man, I see that you are really frustrated. You want to tell me more about that? Sometimes they're so frustrated that they can't even tell you about it. And just like empathize with them. Like, dude I get that there, there was something frustrating me today. And I totally get how you're feeling or, and you know, the example with my daughter with her shoe, like I could exactly relate with that situation. Like I remember learning how to tie my shoes and it was so frustrating.

22:13.59

Jody

And sometimes just sitting sitting with them in that moment can be so helpful. You know, i have one kid who's a physical touch person. So I'm like, want to come in my lap for a minute? And we can just hug. you know, sometimes that helps them. The goal in my interaction at that moment is to calm them down.

22:31.13

Jody

And it works differently based on my child. Like one time when they were little, I started playing like i spy with them. It completely switched their brain off of the, you know, the trauma that they're going through in that moment and got them to think about something else and help them regulate the brain.

22:47.16

Jody

Sometimes I'll read a book. I'll just like grab a book and start reading it to them. Or other times, like my so my youngest son was upset one night about something. I don't even remember what it was. And then I just interjected. was like, have I ever told you the time when you were born as a little baby and you had like, your hair was like really wild and crazy.

23:06.43

Jody

And he was like, tell me more or no, or I don't remember his exact response. And then I just started telling him stories and then he totally like calmed down. And then once you've got a calm kid, then you can revisit the problem of what's going on with them.

23:21.53

Jody

So that is what I would recommend to do in those moments is do what you can to just help your child calm down. And then at that point, then you guys can, you know, tackle the the challenge together. so that is what i would recommend. Then you can ask like, hey, I see you're having trouble with XYZ. Do you want my help with it?

23:40.70

Jody

Or like, you know, work with them on that.

23:41.19

Jonathan Guerrero

So,

23:44.34

Jonathan Guerrero

okay, you're making this very, very doable because what a lot of dads are reacting to isn't so much the child having difficulty with the task.

23:54.90

Jonathan Guerrero

It's the child's emotional reaction to having difficulty with the task. We're reacting to the emotions. And then most dads from there split into two different categories.

24:06.74

Jonathan Guerrero

we're either irritated at the child's reaction and annoyed by it, or we are really pulled in by it.

24:11.29

Jody

Yeah.

24:15.48

Jonathan Guerrero

And, and so I love how, what you're clarifying is the best thing to do is sit with the child's emotions.

24:15.70

Jody

yeah

24:24.42

Jonathan Guerrero

You want to help them overcome the task, sit with their emotions, sit with them with the emotions and help them work through that. And that to me just seems du very durable. And you've,

24:36.95

Jonathan Guerrero

provided language for that and everything.

24:39.86

Jody

Yeah. And I can see as dads and I'm generalizing here, so hang out with me, but I'm seeing as dads that many dads may have not gotten that from their own father.

24:52.73

Jody

Cause I think that there has been a trend or a way of being that it's like man up, suck it up. Don't cry. Don't have feelings. Don't have emotions. Just shut it all down and do the job and be a man.

25:06.10

Jody

And I think that message is so destructive because God created us all with feelings and emotions. And those are signs that something's going on. And so I can see how a father could see a son as being weak because he's getting angry or frustrated at something that should be so simple.

25:25.50

Jody

But that's the messages that he received from his own dad is like, you shouldn't be frustrated. Just get it done. Don't be upset and do it. So 100%, like it really requires...

25:36.86

Jody

you know, the awareness and just sitting with your son and the challenges that they have.

25:37.39

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay.

25:42.99

Jody

And then when you can create that space, safe space for your son, then that is a kind of father son relationship that other parents want because the dad has created a safe place for his son to go and not know all the answers and be frustrated and want his dad's help.

26:01.82

Jody

And then that'll carry on through the rest of his life.

26:06.07

Jonathan Guerrero

Another perspective in this is generational. So for example, I'm Gen X.

26:09.82

Jody

Wow.

26:10.55

Jonathan Guerrero

We are stereotyped as the latchkey kids, the latchkey kid generation. And I literally was a latchkey kid. I went home from school. I let myself in the house.

26:21.14

Jonathan Guerrero

And if I was hungry, i had to cook my own food and be responsible for doing my own homework because my mom was off working. To add insult to injury, i grew up without a father in the home.

26:33.27

Jody

o Right.

26:33.69

Jonathan Guerrero

So if I didn't suck it up and do something and get something done, it didn't get done. So there was no room or place for the emotional component of it.

26:44.20

Jonathan Guerrero

It just wasn't relevant. It just, it wasn't going to get the job done.

26:46.94

Jody

Yeah.

26:49.51

Jonathan Guerrero

So you just sucked it up and did it. So Gen Xers is that grew up in that type of an environment have a very low tolerance for, for, as we would say, whiners or complainers or people.

27:02.62

Jody

who

27:03.84

Jonathan Guerrero

like So sometimes Gen Xers can fall to the annoyance side of the spectrum when the child struggles with that and empathy becomes a challenge.

27:05.02

Jody

Yeah.

27:08.22

Jody

Yeah.

27:13.82

Jody

That makes sense. Yeah.

27:22.81

Jonathan Guerrero

ah dad When a dad successfully steps back and lets his child win their own battles, What does that do to the father-child bond in the long run?

27:35.10

Jody

That strengthens the connection because what that is telling their, his child, like what a father is telling his child in that moment is that he believes in them.

27:45.66

Jody

And Isaac, when your dad says to you, son, i believe in you. Like, do you feel awesome or do you feel like poop?

27:56.92

Jonathan Guerrero

Awesome, for sure.

27:58.14

Jody

Yeah. And so when we get, when fathers get to step back and show their sons that they believe in them, like that is so empowering. And that, ah and then that confidence that a son has when his father speaks over him like that, you know, like I've said before, it just carries with him and empowers him through night through life, knowing that his dad loves him and supports him and believes that he can do it. Like you just can't go wrong.

28:26.87

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, Jody, here's the part we've been waiting for. You offer a free confidence boosters and busters guide for dads in the audience. How can dads get this free guide and find your website to learn more and get more resources?

28:40.98

Jody

So the best place to find me is online at on Instagram. It's just at Jody Hill parenting. That's my handle. And then yes, for the parents who are listening for the dads, like I've got this for you. If you go to podcast.itsjodyhill.com.

28:57.62

Jody

I have my first superpower strategy that is in my book. It's on audio. It's an audio or PDF format. And then I also give my top confidence boosters and busters. So it's the top confidence things that you can do for your sons, for your daughters to really,

29:15.10

Jody

Increase their confidence. And then also things that as a parent, you may inadvertently be hindering their confidence, just like we talked about earlier, right? Rescuing them out of oftentimes good intentions, but it's actually hindering their confidence. So I have the top boosters and the busters that parents often do.

29:34.39

Jonathan Guerrero

And just to make things easier, if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com. And if you go to this episode, you're looking for the episode called Why Helping Sabotages Your Child's Confidence.

29:48.31

Jonathan Guerrero

Why Helping Sabotages Your Child's Confidence. So if you go to this episode, look right below the episode description. I will have all of the links and resources that Jody mentioned posted right there for your convenience.

30:03.26

Jonathan Guerrero

As we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

30:08.47

Jody

My challenge to dads would be to watch your words, use them wisely because they will dictate your child's future. And what I want to say, like the other thing that I want to say to dads is like fathers, you have been given such an important role in your family's life.

30:30.71

Jody

And that is what I love, you know, about what Jonathan and Isaac, what you guys are doing is because you are speaking to the fathers and This is why it's so important. So our relationship with our heavenly father is heavily influenced by our relationship with our with our earthly father.

30:50.07

Jody

And so I truly believe that this is why our fathers are under attack, whether that be through addictions or childhood trauma or whatever, because the enemy knows if he can get to the father, he can impact his children under them and it can sway them from a relationship with our heavenly father, which is the only way that we can survive through life, right? Like we need our relationship with Jesus.

31:15.99

Jody

And so that is why i believe that fathers are under attack more than even the women are because they can change that perspective. And so I just want to encourage like you, Jonathan and Isaac, like what you guys are doing is so powerful. And for the fathers who are listening now, I encourage you to get the help and get the healing and attach to any resources that help you be a better man, which will impact your fatherhood, which will impact your children and their relationship with the Lord. so I think that's the final thing I have to say on that. It's so important.

31:50.76

Jonathan Guerrero

We've had an amazing conversation with Jody Hill. And if there's one thing that we've learned, it's that our children's confidence isn't something we give them. It's something they earn through very hard struggles and that we actually are wanting to protect them from.

32:05.98

Jonathan Guerrero

As dads, we have to realize that our health has a price tag. Every time that we try every time we tie the shoe, solve the math problem, or jump in to defend them in a social spat.

32:19.80

Jonathan Guerrero

We might be buying a moment of peace, but we are selling a piece of their self-worth. Your child doesn't need a hero to solve their problems. They need a sentinel dad to watch them solve their own.

32:32.12

Jonathan Guerrero

Tonight, when you see that look of frustration in your child's face, try sitting on your hands. Give them the gift of the struggle. A huge, huge thank you to Jody Hill for challenging our rescue reflex. Until next time, stay durable, stay restrained, and remember that the strongest kids are built in the moments where you have the courage to let them try. We'll see you in the next episode.

33:03.85

Jody

Y'all, that was so good. You did such a great job facilitating that conversation.

33:14.74

Jody

Can you hear me?

33:18.39

Jody

Can you guys hear me?

33:19.68

Jonathan Guerrero

OK, sorry. Yeah, the outro was running during that time. I forgot to tell you.

33:21.78

Jody

Oh, no.

33:22.99

Jonathan Guerrero

That's OK. We can throw it in later.

33:25.78

Jody

Oh, no. ah

33:27.42

Jonathan Guerrero

I should have warned you about that. It's my fault.

33:28.89

Jody

ah ah That was great, guys.

33:31.44

Jonathan Guerrero

That's all right.

33:32.25

Jody

I love your father-son dynamic.

We’ve all heard the stories of dads who have been pushed to the sidelines, treated like a paycheck with visitation rights. But today, we’re joined by an advocate who is standing in the gap for those men. And what makes her voice so powerful is that she isn't a father—she’s a mother who refuses to stay silent while children are deprived of their dads.

Rachel is known to many as the 'Fathers' Advocate Mom.' She’s a voice for the voiceless in the family court system, dedicated to dismantling the bias that says a father is 'secondary.' She understands that a child doesn't just need a provider; they need a patriarch.

To learn more about Rachel's work or connect with her, visit: https://www.instagram.com/fathers_advocate_mom/

Find Deadbeat Dad by Design Podcast

Apple Podcasts:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deadbeat-dad-by-design-supporting-fathers-through-the/id1870406009

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1pZLIXz5y7b0y7pzYIPMea?si=0BKROPpTS0qqaw0wEOQnsw

To become a guest on The Fatherhood Challenge, visit: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge



Today, we are joined by a man who operates at a level of capacity that most of us can only imagine. He is a titan in the world of financial education, a successful entrepreneur, and a man of deep, unshakable faith. But perhaps his most impressive credential is the title he holds at home: Father of nine. We’re diving into the 'Trade of a Lifetime.' We’re exploring how to apply market-level discipline to your spiritual life, how to build wealth without losing your soul, and what it actually looks like to lead a large family with intentionality and grace.

Our guest is Casey Stubbs, founder of Trading Strategy Guides, the author of The Complete Trading System and the voice behind the How to Trade It podcast.

Purchase The Complete Trading System here: https://amzn.to/4sjXS7m

Find Trading Strategy Guides here: https://tradingstrategyguides.com/

Find the How to Trade It podcast here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0ftQa8lrsCjM3-GY9sracPBKJKCI6Phl&si=-awsSQ32Mb5a4WuG

To become a guest on The Fatherhood Challenge, visit: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:05.34

Jonathan Guerrero

For most men, the word trading brings up images of high-speed tickers, complex charts, and the relentless pressure of the bottom line. We spend our lives trying to master the markets, grow our portfolios, and provide a future for our families. But there's a massive difference between being a successful earner and being a godly steward.

00:25.94

Jonathan Guerrero

One focuses on the number in the bank account, and the other focuses on the legacy left in the living room. Today, we're joined by a man who operates at a high level of capacity that most of us can only imagine. He's a titan in the financial world, an education, and and a successful entrepreneur.

00:45.19

Jonathan Guerrero

He's a man of deep, unshakable faith, but perhaps his most impressive credential is the title he holds at home, Father of Nine.

00:55.82

Jonathan Guerrero

We're diving into the trade of a lifetime. We're exploring how to apply market level discipline to your spiritual life, how to build wealth without losing your soul, and what it actually looks like to lead a large family with intentionality and grace.

01:11.54

Jonathan Guerrero

And we're going to explore all of this in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.

01:56.35

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. My son and co-host Isaac is taking the day off, so he might be in a future episode. This episode is called The Trade of a Lifetime.

02:08.37

Jonathan Guerrero

Our guest is Casey Stubbs, the founder of Trading Strategy Guides and the author of The Complete Trading System and the voice behind How to Trade It podcast. Casey, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

02:21.59

Casey

Hi, Jonathan, thanks for inviting me.

02:25.56

Jonathan Guerrero

So I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit and ask you what your favorite dad joke is.

02:33.62

Casey

Wow, you know, oh man, I don't even know. That's a good good putting me on the spot, but I can't even think of one. Yeah, not ah so I've got a total blank spot. I don't tell dad jokes.

02:49.62

Jonathan Guerrero

That's okay. Perfectly fine.

02:52.86

Casey

and Yeah.

02:54.33

Jonathan Guerrero

okay

02:54.83

Casey

It's funny just thinking about it, but yeah.

02:56.46

Jonathan Guerrero

It is. All right. Well, Casey, no professional trader enters a position without a clear strategy. For dad listening who feels like he's just reacting to his kids all day, what does a parenting strategy look like?

03:12.38

Jonathan Guerrero

And how do you stick it how do you stick to it when the market at home goes volatile?

03:18.58

Casey

Whoa, good question. So it's interesting that you brought this up, Jonathan, because I was actually thinking about this this morning. One of the things that I like to do is slow down a little bit and think about anything and everything.

03:40.44

Casey

And so one of the things that I was thinking about when we have challenges and struggles The first, I wrote a really long list this morning, actually, but the first thing is it's just so easy to get caught up in the negative side of things.

03:55.29

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, yes. so yes

03:55.67

Casey

um We can talk about, oh, well, my kids did this, my wife did this, this happened at work, and we just go down this spiral of all of these negative and bad things that are happening.

04:12.34

Casey

And yet you don't think about the good things, you know. And so I would say that anytime something bad is happening to you in your life, you could probably also say that something good is happening. And you've got to be looking at that.

04:30.45

Casey

Just to kind of help keep you regulated and to keep you understanding that right now there's chaos in the house. The kids are going crazy. Maybe your wife and yourself are not getting along.

04:43.93

Casey

But hey, I'm going to just realize this is just a moment and I'm going slow down, step back and not get caught up in it. And try to think about all of the blessings and all of the good things and what an opportunity it is to even have these problems in the first place.

05:04.48

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, wow. This conversation i already know is going to be a challenge because we're limited by the clock here and already there's so much to what you're saying. I really appreciate what you're saying. I literally experienced it.

05:19.35

Jonathan Guerrero

i was going through this last week. I was in some kind of a funk and to this day, I'm still not quite sure where it came from, but I was having very much of a Moby attitude.

05:34.39

Jonathan Guerrero

And, um, and prayer just was a challenge for me. And it was one of those things where I just did it anyway. Uh, just cause I knew that's what I needed the most, even though, uh, tiredness and I'm not even sure if I can call it depression, my down mood just was not wanting me to, to pray or do much of anything.

06:01.78

Jonathan Guerrero

And after I prayed, what I was impressed to do was to take an inventory of my life. And instead of whatever it was, not that I could put my finger on it anyway, but when I was around my family, I it was very intentional about paying attention to them.

06:25.18

Jonathan Guerrero

Just being present in that moment with them. And at that point, I had this realization, wow, I'm stinking filthy rich. I have a really cool wife who's a lot of fun.

06:42.01

Jonathan Guerrero

i have some really fun kids that many would love to have. I am super, super blessed.

06:55.03

Jonathan Guerrero

I could be living life without all of this. And I know i would be absolutely miserable. That's bliss to some people, I get it, but To me, it would be sheer misery.

07:11.19

Jonathan Guerrero

And then all I could think of was how I got all of this. And of course, that turned my attention back to God because there's no way in the world I should have all of this. But I do.

07:22.67

Jonathan Guerrero

It's a miracle. And it's all because of of God. And so all of a sudden, I was just feeling really, really loved by God because he knew that I would want all of this.

07:37.08

Jonathan Guerrero

And that's all it took. It took me out of my phone

07:43.42

Casey

Yeah, that's actually fantastic. And i if we can get ourselves to do that and do it every day, that really goes a long ways and it keeps us keeps us motivated. But um it's it you know I think being depressed and sad and all that just doesn't make any sense when we actually look at the big picture.

08:08.92

Casey

And yeah, we have our down moments, but the big picture really keeps me going. But I love how you said you were feeling loved by God. But the thing about that is we don't always feel that.

08:19.51

Casey

And so we want to make sure that we operate in God's love. So one of the things that I do is I remember...

08:31.16

Casey

You know, why was I created? Well, I was created because God wants to spend time with me. God loves me. And so And one of the things I try to do every day is to just take a few minutes and say, Lord, let me experience your love today.

08:50.07

Casey

you know, let me receive it. Lord, I want to learn to receive it more. I want to experience it more. Show me your love for me. Right. Because I am very thankful to the Lord. And I a lot of times I'm praising and thanking, but recently I've been really focused on not just giving the praise, but also receiving His love.

09:10.68

Casey

And I think that makes a big difference as far as our faith, because really, if we're not always going to feel it. And so sometimes it really is a faith thing.

09:20.95

Casey

But then when we get into the habit of receiving His love, that changes us from the inside out.

09:31.37

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, man, you went there. i didn't think we were going to go. wow I should have just I should have just assumed we were going to go deep. This is kind of the way the nature of it.

09:42.96

Jonathan Guerrero

But there's there's something super profound you said. And that is that we are not. used to being loved by God.

09:51.37

Casey

you

09:54.36

Jonathan Guerrero

We don't always feel that. And that's just brutal honesty. I mean, I know there's some Christians that are scared to admit that because it's going to feel like some grave sin or heresy.

10:08.12

Jonathan Guerrero

um But the way you're portraying it is you're portraying it like a habit, ah a learned behavior, a learned habit, That the more we try, the more we do it, the better we get at it, the better we get at receiving God's love.

10:26.07

Jonathan Guerrero

i thought I thought that was well put.

10:29.53

Casey

Well, thanks. I mean, one of my one of my favorite verses is when Jesus said, Abide in me and you will bear much fruit.

10:39.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah.

10:39.99

Casey

John 15.

10:40.08

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah.

10:41.83

Casey

It's really true. Apart from me, you can do nothing. And so... We just got to do that. We got to operate in Christ because that's where the fruit comes from.

10:52.95

Casey

Not saying that we're not going to work and do things because obviously we need to do both, but we need to invite Jesus along and really spend time with him. That will give us the, you know, that's where the fruit really comes from. That's where the blessings begin to explode in your life.

11:13.35

Jonathan Guerrero

What's that saying? ah By beholding, you become changed.

11:19.51

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah. That quality time that you're spending with God. Even then, I think sometimes we overcomplicate that.

11:30.74

Jonathan Guerrero

And we almost ritualize it. When, you know, I mean, for example, like if we were gonna hang out, we would just hang out. Like there wouldn't be a ritual to it.

11:45.08

Jonathan Guerrero

It would just be, let's go meet here.

11:45.69

Casey

Right. Right.

11:47.44

Jonathan Guerrero

Or, hey, you wanna go, um'm I'm going fishing later today. You wanna go fishing? I mean, it would be as complicated as that. And if you wanted to fish, you'd show up, we would go fish and we would have a blast.

12:02.81

Jonathan Guerrero

So I can't imagine why your relationship and your quality time with God would be any different? Why does that need to be any different or any more complicated than that? Doesn't he want to be included in every single part of your life, of every detail of your life, just like any friend would?

12:24.86

Jonathan Guerrero

And if you had a really close friend anyway, you wouldn't be keeping the darkest parts of your life from them. you would especially share that with them. So why do we feel like we have to be like squeaky clean to be able to share something with God? That's not what a true friendship is. So sometimes I think we can let shame or guilt or all kinds of other things get in the way.

12:51.00

Jonathan Guerrero

And we don't want to include God in those moments, like those moments where we blow up at our family and we lose our cool. Those are the times we lease ourselves.

13:03.13

Jonathan Guerrero

want to share with God and and have that a alone time with him and and just vent to him about what happened. Those are the times, though, when i I would say I get regulated the best are the times when I have and sometimes it just takes guts to do that because I don't want to go to God.

13:26.78

Jonathan Guerrero

I I know what I did was wrong. I shouldn't have blown up at my family. God is the last person that I want to go to with this.

13:37.27

Jonathan Guerrero

But sometimes it's me just making myself do it anyway. And shoving out, because I know I'm being lied to, that God doesn't want to hear it or God's angry with you or whatever. I know that's a lie.

13:50.90

Jonathan Guerrero

And so when I ignore that lie and I make myself get away and go be alone somewhere and talk to God and just vent,

14:02.33

Jonathan Guerrero

and just say, this is what I'm really, really upset about. And then I get really quiet. And just like when you're venting to, like if I was venting to you, i would spew out whatever it is I'm angry at. And then when I'm done and I've got it all out, I'd be quiet for a second. I'd be listening for your response because I know you'd have something to say about it. And I know you would be honest with me about it.

14:26.65

Jonathan Guerrero

So why is that any different with God? Like when you listen, and I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me where I've listened and I've heard the voice of God speaking back to me.

14:40.73

Jonathan Guerrero

And every single time I think I know what God's going to say to me, I'm wrong.

14:51.80

Casey

Yeah. Yeah. That's actually really interesting because, uh, yeah, you think, you know, but, uh, you don't, so you got to listen, but I think that's, um, a good point.

14:58.46

Jonathan Guerrero

yeah

15:01.26

Casey

You know, you said you don't have to ritualize it and I agree with that. Um, but I'll tell you, i have different kinds of friends and different relationships with different people. And, um, I think that's why God really enjoys being with us because we're all different, but I will say this,

15:20.28

Casey

When you're hanging out with some people, you can tell the difference versus when you're hanging out with others. And what I mean by that is some people are very intentional. They'll be like, hey, let's go fishing, and we'll go fishing. And then they're going to be asking you questions.

15:35.73

Casey

They're going to be listening. They're going to maybe even ask you some difficult questions. And yeah, there's no ritual to it, but you know that, oh, they're trying to they're trying to make this time count for something. rather than just be like okay we're just gonna hang chill be surface level um and so that's the that's the difference and you were and you were you were talking about that but you know we don't want to just stay surface level we want to ask the real questions uh listen to the real answers and kind of wrestle with those things that's where the real change takes place is when you uh when you

16:17.24

Casey

really engage the Lord and engage some of these things that you're really struggling with and things that you're not doing well with.

16:26.30

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, I think that's the mark of the true depth of a relationship is when you're on a level with that person where you can point out their faults and you feel safe with that other person that you feel safe enough to hear your faults from that person and not get defensive about it.

16:47.77

Jonathan Guerrero

I think that is a ah whole nother level. And I think, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I think sometimes... Us guys struggle with that more than anything, maybe more than female relationships do. i don't know. But that's the overall perception, I think, is that we struggle with that the most.

17:11.29

Casey

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And it's it's so important to really just do the work that you need to do, right? And that's I think that's the difference. And how's that work going to happen? It's going happen, as I mentioned, abiding in the Lord. But we got to do the work. And you can't run, right? If you're going to run, it it doesn't doesn't work.

17:36.12

Casey

You got to go deep. You got to go to the the the hard places and, um, most people, and they just aren't willing to do that. And we aren't, you know, as humans, we just don't want to do it, but we have to, we have to go there. And and I think that's why I talked um initially about receiving God's love.

17:55.48

Casey

Because that is really where you I get the grace to do that. Because when I know that and i have that trust, then it's like, okay, I can do this because, yeah, this is ugly, this is painful, this is hard, but I can do this because God's love is real and He really cares about me and He's he's molding me into something that I want to become.

18:23.58

Jonathan Guerrero

I think we struggle sometimes with the difference between condemnation and honesty, that brutal honesty that only happens at a high level, close relationship.

18:37.75

Jonathan Guerrero

And we just struggle with that difference. Scripture very clear. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ. And so we equate that honesty

18:49.17

Casey

you

18:49.24

Jonathan Guerrero

with combat with condemnation and we think that they're one in the same and they're not and that honesty is love and again it's unexpected sometimes I think I know how the conversation is going to go how God's going to respond to me there's this one time that my wife and I got into an argument and and I was just frustrated because I felt like I wasn't heard, i wasn't understood, and I had absolutely no way to communicate what was on my heart.

19:30.74

Jonathan Guerrero

And I felt trapped and I felt like I was going to explode and it was about to, it was going to get ugly. But I, I knew enough, I had enough presence to, to,

19:44.25

Jonathan Guerrero

to not get into that, to not let it go to that level and to step back. And so I did. And i just quickly prayed. I just prayed.

19:57.46

Jonathan Guerrero

And the funny thing was when I just opened up to God in the middle, you know, the car radio was on and I don't remember what else was playing or going on at that moment. I just closed my eyes and I prayed and Out of nowhere, the song changed on the radio to help is on the way.

20:23.29

Casey

wow

20:23.32

Jonathan Guerrero

that Yeah, it just changed to help is on the way. And I could feel the presence of God. and my wife left to go do something. And then when she came back into the into the van, it was a totally different attitude.

20:39.13

Jonathan Guerrero

She was a different person. I have no idea what happened.

20:43.86

Casey

Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. And you know what, too, when since we're on this topic, um I have been really trying and just seeking the Lord. and And as I'm learning to love the Lord, it's about...

21:04.73

Casey

receiving that, I'm also trying to give that same level of love to my wife. And so I'm trying to so to to think of things like, okay, the purpose, that the reason the Lord created me was so that he could put his love And so I could receive his love so he could love me. And so I'm thinking, okay, the reason I got married was to love my wife.

21:29.94

Casey

Okay, and so I'm trying to do that exact love with her that I'm receiving from the Lord. And it's been a she's responded pretty well to it. And so I obviously need to keep moving in that direction. But one of the things, it's kind of funny because she's like, what's wrong with you?

21:49.36

Casey

She's like, are you dying? Are you going to leave me you know like thinking that I'm trying to be nice or or that I'm doing these things before something's going to happen?

22:00.13

Casey

And again, that's all part of like the same thing as what happens to us in really learning to receive God's love. Sometimes we don't even believe it.

22:07.26

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes.

22:10.52

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes. They are very, very much linked. I think that's probably why Jesus used the parallel of a marriage to describe our relationship with him.

22:25.30

Jonathan Guerrero

Because that's really what marriage was. Part of the design of marriage was to help us better understand that relationship, the depth of it. And yeah, you're right. It's a a very truthful reminder of why marriages exist and why we were given the gift of our wives.

22:45.25

Jonathan Guerrero

It's so, so true. um And I can't tell you how, you know, in that one example, yeah, that's one example where God,

22:51.02

Casey

you

22:55.99

Jonathan Guerrero

worked in my favor if you want to look at it that way but there's been so many times it's been in the other way where I've vented to God I've just laid the whole argument or situation on the table and I've just stepped away and say can't find resolution to this I I give up I don't know what to do I need your help and I'll listen and i will get all kinds of insights into my wife

23:27.99

Jonathan Guerrero

I mean, detailed stuff about her that i I need to know that's important to understand about how, why she feels a certain way about something.

23:29.11

Casey

you

23:39.26

Jonathan Guerrero

And then I will get this gentle prompt from the Holy Spirit to respond in a very specific way. And i every time I obey, it does it. doesn't It does the trick.

23:53.94

Jonathan Guerrero

She feels heard. She feels understood. She feels loved by me. It doesn't always resolve things instantly, but it definitely moves the ball a lot further forward towards a resolution just when she feels listened to and understood and valued and loved outside of whatever the disagreement was.

24:20.34

Jonathan Guerrero

As if there's nothing about this disagreement that is going to change that i the fact that I love her. Those are two completely different things.

24:30.59

Casey

you

24:33.94

Jonathan Guerrero

and we have trouble with that. If we are sinning and struggling with something, we have trouble understanding that God would love us anyway, apart from whatever it is that we're struggling with, apart from whatever sin that we're stuck in, and that we can't possibly sin enough To break that love of God, we struggle. It's and that's called unconditional love. We struggle with that with understanding that and marriage is a great place to try to understand that better.

25:16.79

Casey

Yeah, no, that that's that's it. And yeah, I just, just from listening to you, I think, you know, one of the things that you really should be fortunate and thankful for is you have a very strong relationship with the Lord. And that's a good thing. You know, a lot of Christian men don't have the confidence that they can hear from God.

25:38.14

Casey

So, you know, It's pretty unique, actually. Even if they're Christians, they're like, okay, I i love the Lord, but they don't are confident that they can hear from God. So the fact that you have that is really awesome, and that's a blessing and something you really should be celebrating often.

25:59.83

Jonathan Guerrero

Well, why don't we go there if you're okay with that? Why don't we talk about how does guy that is not used to hearing from God, how does he hear from God and how can he be confident that he's hearing from God?

26:14.62

Jonathan Guerrero

What is your experience with that?

26:16.31

Casey

You know what? um That's a tough question. It's a really tough question. Not because it's hard for me, because it's hard for me to know what other people are thinking. you know Because I have talked to, you know I get excited about it because it's not emotional, but at the same time, I feel I'm i'm very similar to you as I feel like I hear from the Lord.

26:42.68

Casey

And so...

26:46.90

Casey

I have in sharing that with men, sometimes I get the response like, well, good for you type response, you know, that's good for you, but it doesn't work for them type thing. And so it's hard for me to relate to that.

27:00.06

Casey

And so for me, the biggest thing is i I don't really know exactly how it happens, but it's just like when I, it's like I feel something, it's like, okay, I feel like this is what I heard. You know, it's not like it's a guaranteed type, like audible voice or anything like that, but it's just this impression that I get.

27:23.58

Casey

And i feel pretty confident in it. And it has caused me to take actions in my life many times. Like, okay, I think I'm supposed to do this.

27:37.18

Casey

I felt like this is from the Lord, so this is what I'm going to do type stuff. And so it's changed the direction of my life because of promptings that I've heard and then followed those.

27:47.58

Casey

And so how do I do it? Well, I stay in the Word. i I try to stay in worship and prayer, and those are the three things that that I do.

28:01.78

Casey

In the Word, i can receive things. In worship, I can receive in prayer, especially when I'm, like you said, when you're asking questions, I can receive. And even things like, you know, at church is a great time because you're in a worship setting. A lot of times I'll hear things at worship, at church, in men's groups.

28:22.65

Casey

at in quiet times and even sometimes really when I'm not seeking you know sometimes I'll be doing something totally different but I just get this impression you know and so I say that because it just is a difficult because some of the men that I talk to have have a hard time with it and I'm not really sure exactly why they do but it's maybe you have some insight on that

28:53.27

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, it's um I get the same reaction when it comes to conversations around hearing from God. And I think sometimes that gets overly complicated, too.

29:06.49

Jonathan Guerrero

There is some very simple rules to that. And that is yeah because one question i would get is, how do I know that I'm not hearing my own thoughts?

29:22.36

Jonathan Guerrero

So first of all, I love that you mentioned it wasn't an audible voice, and um I want to lead off with that. i I have only heard God's audible voice once in my life, and never since then that I can recall.

29:38.74

Jonathan Guerrero

And it probably hasn't been at all, because if i if I heard it a second time, it's just one of those experiences you'll never forget. So I've only heard his voice once, and that's it.

29:50.07

Jonathan Guerrero

most can go their whole life and never hear his audible voice. That's the norm. It rarely happens. If it happens to you, count yourself super blessed because most don't get that.

30:02.04

Jonathan Guerrero

So I'll lead off with that. Second, the most common way that you'll hear his voice is is through thought. And that goes into the next question, which is how do I know that it's not my own thoughts? Well, first of all,

30:18.52

Jonathan Guerrero

when you're hearing from the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is obsessed with Jesus. Given rule. So if the conversation starts somehow hinting towards Jesus or makes you think about Jesus or directly references Jesus or quotes Jesus, it's it's pretty solid bet that it's God's voice.

30:44.88

Jonathan Guerrero

you're You're hearing, from the Holy Spirit or you're hearing you're hearing from Jesus. The second thing is the Holy Spirit is also obsessed with Scripture.

30:57.72

Jonathan Guerrero

He loves to quote Scripture or point you to Scripture or tie something to Scripture in some way. So those are the two rules. If the voice that you think you're hearing is is not referencing Jesus, is directly in conflict with Jesus, or directly conflicts what is in Scripture, you are probably hearing some other voice, and it's probably not even your voice.

31:30.87

Jonathan Guerrero

But those are a general thumb. Those are some good rules to go by. And after all of that, if for whatever reason you're still unsure about what you're hearing, what you think you're hearing, you can always ask God in prayer for confirmation of some sort.

31:49.59

Casey

Thank you.

31:50.14

Jonathan Guerrero

Another good rule is find another group of guys or or spiritually minded people that are really good Bible believing Christians that you trust and go share what you think you heard with them.

32:07.03

Jonathan Guerrero

And ask them to join you in prayer to confirm that what you thought you heard is indeed or is not from the Holy Spirit, to clarify that. and God is always faithful to to reveal that and clear that up with you. like He doesn't want you to be deceived or unsure, especially if he's telling you something.

32:27.64

Jonathan Guerrero

So trust that that prayer will be honored in faith. So those are just some really good simple ways. Thought's not the only way. Many times I've gotten direct answers through scripture, just reading the Bible.

32:42.48

Jonathan Guerrero

That's another good way, especially when you pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you as you read and study scripture. You'd be surprised what comes out of there and how he communicates with you and how he'll illuminate your mind to read and understand things that you might have read 100 times before, but this one time because you thought to ask the Holy Spirit, it reads a little bit differently and you understand it better than you ever have.

33:12.63

Jonathan Guerrero

So those are some unique ways in in that type of an experience. You are hearing from God. You really are. And it's faith and it's it's a muscle, just like you have to exercise that faith to understand and believe that you're loved by God.

33:29.46

Jonathan Guerrero

until it becomes a habit to where it becomes easier to accept that love. Hearing from God is also like a muscle that you have to work and exercise. It isn't just going to become clear and easy to do the first time.

33:43.13

Jonathan Guerrero

You have to do it repeatedly, which comes back to what you said earlier, actually what you've said a few times in this conversation, Casey. yeah You have to spend that time with God.

33:55.31

Jonathan Guerrero

that's That's where it all comes from.

33:56.73

Casey

You know what?

33:56.67

Jonathan Guerrero

You have to make that time.

33:57.33

Casey

That's it right there because that's how you hear it. Right. And so if you're busy and you just don't aren't intentional with it. So it's, again, it's like hanging out. It doesn't have to be ritualistic, but it does have to be intentional.

34:10.07

Casey

And, uh, it's very cool. It's a very cool thing. And I'll share just one little story here. Um, I was recently with my wife and we were looking for a school, uh, for our daughter.

34:21.91

Casey

And, uh, When I was there, at first of all, I felt like the Lord led us to this place. um Both my wife and I were thinking the same thing, right? It was not just a a coincidence, but it was a divine appointment type thing.

34:36.98

Casey

And then when we got there, i like had this just, this, man, again, it I don't know if it it might have been a thought or impression or whatever it was, but it was like, wow, I just knew that I heard from the Lord while I was there.

34:50.07

Jonathan Guerrero

Mm-hmm.

34:51.19

Casey

And so it was great. But then on the I didn't want to tell my wife what had happened, mainly because if sometimes I don't tell people because i want just, you know, she needs to know that that what happened ah what we're supposed to be doing. And so on the drive home, I was like, yeah, I think I heard from the Lord, but I'm not going to tell you what it is.

35:21.11

Casey

And then she immediately, as soon as I said it, she immediately repeated exactly what I was thinking.

35:28.09

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, wow.

35:28.95

Casey

And so it was like, okay, I guess we both heard. But see, that makes it really easy to make decisions because when you're both on the same page like that, it's like, wow, that was the easiest decision we ever had to make.

35:42.62

Jonathan Guerrero

That is really, really cool. And I have experienced that too. So that's another thing you can try. It's a great way to confirm.

35:53.43

Jonathan Guerrero

If you think you heard an answer, ask God to confirm it through the other person somehow, and then just sit back, be quiet about it and just listen, just wait, wait patiently. And that's, I absolutely love that story.

36:09.91

Jonathan Guerrero

Well, Casey, let's change gears a little bit. I know that you're definitely an entrepreneur in the financial sector. So I have a simple question. Why does a dad need to seek financial freedom?

36:23.42

Jonathan Guerrero

How much time are you personally trading for money? And how do dads know when they are way off balance?

36:33.08

Casey

Okay, well, you just hammered me with many questions. is so So I'll just share a little bit here and try to, so hopefully I can answer them all.

36:43.80

Casey

So the biggest thing is it's great that we learn as Christians to tithe, right, 10%. That's ah just, it's so good that we're learning to, we love God. We give him 10%. It's all his anyways. It all belongs to him. None of it's ours. We're just stewards. So that's probably the first thing is have an understanding that everything you have belongs to him.

37:06.68

Casey

And if you understand that, you're going to do just fine. Continue to stay in connection with the Lord as far as your finances, 10%. And then i personally believe that every single person should do 10 tithe and 10 investments um because it's really a great habit to get into and it just grows and it adds up and if you don't you're you've got to if you don't do that you're going to be in trouble right because you're going to have because we have ah our

37:47.13

Casey

In life, there's seasons, right? You've got, just like in in the world, there's seasons. In life, you have seasons. You've got seasons with plenty where you are blessed financially, and then you've got seasons where things are a little bit tighter.

38:02.81

Casey

And so you want to be prepared for the season. You know winter's coming, so get prepared for it. And one of the best ways to do that is to always take 10% and learn to to live on less. and so It's very difficult nowadays and people are tight because of inflation.

38:23.90

Casey

you know We've seen the prices of things go up so much and that's the other reason why we have to invest because if we put our money in savings, it's just going to disappear because of inflation.

38:37.27

Casey

What we had earlier, we keep that money, it just disappears automatically by inflation. So you have to invest in things that go up, things like Real estate, things like stocks.

38:50.46

Casey

and If you do that, then your money will increase rather than just keeping it in the bank account.

38:59.74

Jonathan Guerrero

Casey, you're a really, really busy guy, to put it mildly. You have enough kids to make most most of us want to take a nap just thinking about it. But on top of that, you've written a book and you help dads become financially free.

39:13.21

Jonathan Guerrero

Please tell us about both.

39:17.14

Casey

So my my my book really is my journey on learning how to invest and trade in the markets. I started very young. I was very very fortunate because my dad was involved in investing.

39:34.07

Casey

And so I learned. He was actually... And he was not really into computers, but he would do investing the old-fashioned way with looking at the the stock tickers in the newspaper because that's how they used to do it. And then you'd call in the broker to make a trade.

39:52.89

Casey

But then in the early ninety s the internet was ah was a creation and he didn't know how to use computers or internet so he needed get set up for the online trading so he needed me to help him set up his computer because I was grew up as a computer nerd um and so I set it all up for him and then in the process I got introduced to stocks and so I got out, left the house, joined the military and started investing.

40:24.38

Casey

And I was only making $200 a week. So we're talking in 1996, I'd made 200 a week. But in the army, I was in the army, you get your housing pay for, your food, so that all the cash that you get, so 200 a week is still not bad because all your bills are paid for.

40:45.46

Casey

So I was able to put most of that away. And that's what really got me started because after the the four years of my initial and enlistment period, I had over $30,000 in in my investment accounts. And I just realized the power of slowly putting in money each and every week.

41:06.07

Casey

Most people live paycheck to paycheck. And it's a secret to getting ahead. And it doesn't happen quickly. So if you're in a tight situation, Um, it's going to be tight for a while, but you can begin to build those good habits. We talked about habits, build those good habits, start tithing. If you're not start investing 10% and eventually it will catch up with you and you will start to see the financial fruit. You know, if you're in debt, you know, try to make yourself a plan to get out of debt, you know,

41:41.59

Casey

ah And it's not easy in today's world. it really isn't. But then again, it's never been easy. But the people that have good habits will do well.

41:54.62

Jonathan Guerrero

Where can dads find your book and take that next step towards financial freedom?

42:00.15

Casey

Well, ah my book is called The Complete Trading System. So you can just search that. It's on Amazon. And the way that they take their first step is just going through the basics, right?

42:16.06

Casey

Like, okay, I'm going to start tithing. Okay, I'm going to start investing 10% off the top, you know, at And what you invest in is important too because you don't want to make mistakes because you can be – there's some scams out there. So the secret, I'll just tell you right now, is just invest in the best, right? You could actually just invest in the S&P 500 and not have to do any research or and learn any skills because that's the top 500 stocks in America.

42:43.38

Casey

And there's really smart people to decide which are the top 500. They've got mathematical algorithms that they run so you can just trust that those guys know what they're doing. And if you just buy the S&P 500, it's easy. And it's been over the last 150 years, it's been a basically guaranteed success, which is a pretty nice long track record.

43:12.06

Jonathan Guerrero

So just to make things easier, if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com. And if you look for the episode called The Trade of a Lifetime, The Trade of a Lifetime, go right below the episode description. i will have the link to Casey's book posted right there for your convenience. Casey, as we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

43:39.10

Casey

Well, I think the challenge is the same one that I have, and that is to build good habits, be intentional about it. you know don't Don't settle for drift, because if you don't set the good habits, you're going to drift, and you're going to drift the wrong way. So focus on building good habits and being intentional with your time, which means contemplation and in and thinking about, okay, what are the habits that I want to build? How am I going to build them? What action steps am I going to take?

44:13.91

Jonathan Guerrero

I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. it was great to connect with you again. Thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge.

44:23.10

Casey

Thank you.

44:48.70

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, the outro just finished.

Every man has a vision of what fatherhood will look like. We imagine the ball games, the graduations, and the moment we pass down our skills to the next generation. But for millions of fathers, that vision is redirected by a single moment in a doctor’s office. A diagnosis is handed across a desk, and suddenly, the map you’ve been following for your life is gone.

You’re in a new territory. It’s a landscape defined by therapies, advocacy, and a level of emotional complexity that most men aren't trained for. In that moment, many dads feel like they’ve been drafted into a war they didn't sign up for, without a manual or a squad.

Today’s guest is the man who has written that manual. David Hirsch is the founder of the 21st Century Dads Foundation and the creator of the Special Fathers Network—a 'tribe' of thousands of men supporting one another through the unique challenges of raising children with special needs. In this episode we have a conversation about his new book, Dads Raising Children with Special Needs and Disabilities.

Purchase Dads Raising Children with Special Needs and Disabilities here: https://amzn.to/4cUdHNf

Connect with other dads at Special Fathers Network here: https://21stcenturydads.org/

Here is a link to the episode mentioned in this episode with Catherine Whitcher of Milwaukee, WI, Mother of Two Daughters & Nationally Recognized Expert on IEPs: https://21stcenturydads.org/202-catherine-whitcher-of-milwaukee-wi-mother-of-two-daughters-nationally-recognized-expert-on-ieps/

If you’re just as passionate as The Fatherhood Challenge about turning the hearts of fathers to their children and have a unique story, testimony or resource to share with our podcast and radio audience, we would love to have you as a guest on our program. To apply visit: https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/thefatherhoodchallenge

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:05.34

Jonathan Guerrero

Every man has a vision of what fatherhood will look like. We imagine ball games, the graduations, and the moment we pass down our skills to the next generation. But for millions of fathers, that vision is redirected by a single moment in the doctor's office.

00:20.92

Jonathan Guerrero

A diagnosis is handed across the desk, and suddenly the map that you've been following for your life is gone. You're in new territory. It's a landscape defined by therapies, advocacy, and a level of emotional complexity that most men aren't trained for.

00:37.59

Jonathan Guerrero

In that moment, many dads feel like they've been drafted into a war that they didn't sign up for without even a manual or a squad. Today's guest is a man who has written that manual, and in just a few moments, we're going to learn a bit about what's inside, so don't go anywhere.

01:35.22

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my son and co-host Isaac. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Father Who Challenge. David Hirsch is the founder of 21st Century Dads Foundation and the creator of Special Fathers Network, a tribe of thousands of men supporting one another through the unique challenges of raising children with special needs. David's new book, Dads Raising Children with Special Needs and Disabilities, isn't just a collection of stories. It's a tactical roadmap.

02:04.02

Jonathan Guerrero

It's for the dad who feels isolated, the dad who's struggling to navigate the medical system, and the dad who needs to know that his strength isn't measured by his ability to fix his child, but by his resolve to stand with them.

02:19.74

Jonathan Guerrero

David, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

02:23.16

David Hirsch

Jonathan and Isaac, thank you so much. I really look forward to our conversation.

02:28.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, so here's one of my favorite parts. David, what's your favorite dad joke?

02:33.85

David Hirsch

Oh, geez. I knew you were going to ask the question, Jonathan. Um, and you, you know, that there's like a dad joke in each of the chapters, the 21 chapters of this book.

02:42.12

Jonathan Guerrero

oh yeah

02:43.17

David Hirsch

So I'll just share a couple. Um, I don't know that they're my favorites, but they're the ones that come to mind. Um, why did the golfer bring an extra pair of pants?

02:54.74

Jonathan Guerrero

uh isaac you can know this

02:54.90

David Hirsch

in case he got a hole in one.

03:00.44

David Hirsch

The other ah that comes to mind is, i ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon. I'll let you know which one came first.

03:13.29

David Hirsch

We're gonna stop there.

03:13.66

Jonathan Guerrero

I almost thought I knew where that one was going.

03:14.73

David Hirsch

they're just They're all lame like that. They're all lame like that, okay.

03:20.28

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you so much for sharing that. Well, David, in your book, you talk about a moment a father receives a diagnosis. For many men, this feels like a death like the death of a future that they imagine.

03:33.46

Jonathan Guerrero

How does a dad grieve that dream without withdrawing from the child who is right in front of them?

03:40.31

David Hirsch

Yeah, great question. I don't know that there's a one size fits all, but, you know, it's like a lot of things in life. um You know, you have your plans, you have your expectations and life rarely works out that way.

03:52.60

David Hirsch

One thought that comes to mind is that you can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. And You know, each of us has ah dreams or aspirations that are dashed right at one point another. Right. It has nothing to do with a diagnosis or raising a child with special needs. But, you know, those are just the adjustments we make in life as it relates to parenting.

04:15.22

David Hirsch

And you know that I have five children, they're ages 29 to 36 now. um You know, we we had certain expectations, right, whether that was educational or athletically and you know, um what what you do is you just sort of take life as it comes.

04:31.93

David Hirsch

Right. And if you are on the receiving end of the diagnosis, right, like you made reference to, it might be from the time of birth. Right. Something is just not right. Or it could be something that gets diagnosed later, like autism usually isn't diagnosed for a year, a couple years at the earliest. um You know, it's a ah lifeshattering life life adjusting experience. Some have said it's like a hand grenade going off. There's shrapnel flying all around and you know, you're just devastated, right? And for some, they quickly rebalance. For others, it's not just days or weeks, it's months or years.

05:05.82

David Hirsch

And there's this sort of process of being in denial, like especially if it's a intellectual disability type diagnosis. Oh, he's just a slow learner. You know, let's not pre-worry our worries. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, you know, type of thinking. By the way, those are all things that I said as a younger dad.

05:24.22

David Hirsch

Right. And I don't even have a child. that has a serious diagnosis. So um it's the way we process things. And I think one of the most important things I can say about the grieving process is that we don't all process things at the same rate.

05:43.00

David Hirsch

What I mean by that is that in a marriage or with a couple, whether they're married or not, the parents are not likely to process the situation simultaneously at the same level of the same rate. So I think that's really important to give your spouse or the other parent the grace to deal with things in their own way and not be judgmental or critical and just say, hey, you know, we need to figure out how to get on the same team and, you know, make the most of the situation.

06:15.45

David Hirsch

And the last thing I'll say is that the gold standard, if I can call it that, is that years, if not a decade or more down the road, that you could look back and actually not just think this, but articulate this and actually believe this, which is I would not have asked for a child with special needs, but knowing everything I know now, looking back, I wouldn't change anything.

06:40.12

David Hirsch

I hope that everybody can get to that point.

06:44.70

Jonathan Guerrero

I absolutely love your words on that, and I appreciate that you addressed the marriage. This takes me back to my own situation years ago. My oldest son was diagnosed at three with type 1 diabetes, and I remember sitting in the doctor's office waiting on some kind of a diagnosis, and we were told it was either going to be type 1 or it was going to be leukemia.

07:12.98

Jonathan Guerrero

And I remember the guilt of wishing that it was leukemia because I figured, well, with leukemia, he can get a bone marrow transplant and that might be a bit of a wait, but he should have plenty of time. And then this whole thing is over and then everything is fine.

07:30.62

Jonathan Guerrero

If it's type one, that's a life sentence. And I remember feeling feeling guilty for even thinking that and then addressing the marriage it really put a strain because we were grieving very, very different differently.

07:48.79

Jonathan Guerrero

I really didn't even know how to even grieve that situation. So there, there's so much with that. I know later on and in our conversation, we're going to talk about how the marriage is impacted a little bit further in detail, but that's what this takes me back to. So, um, I, I really appreciate what you had to say about that.

08:11.03

David Hirsch

Yeah, well, thanks for sharing.

08:11.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Um, Yeah. You've spent years defining what a 21st century dad looks like. How does that definition change when a child has a disability?

08:23.74

Jonathan Guerrero

Does the role of protector change into an advocate?

08:30.10

David Hirsch

That's a great question. i don't think we shed our role as a protector. I think that's just one of the basic requirements of any dad. um But I think what happens, just to react specifically to your question, that the level of advocacy has to get amped up, right?

08:49.85

David Hirsch

And I don't think dads generally think of themselves as advocates, right? Being able to be more intentional about advocating for their sons or daughters. you know Whether it's right or wrong, societally, no the child rearing experiences a majority of families are the mom's domain.

09:15.93

David Hirsch

Most things, healthcare and education, it's the mom's leading and the dad's following. There are some single dads or stay at home dads that are the leaders um and their families. So i'm not trying make a generalization, but by and large, the advocacy roles fall more heavily on mom's shoulders than dad's shoulders. So I think that um one of the things that we need to do as dads is to be that outspoken advocate, be the co-parent that our child deserves, that a mother of our children deserve, so that all the burden is and on their shoulders.

09:57.37

David Hirsch

And one simple example is like IEP meetings, right individual education plan meetings. It's really important for both parents to be present.

10:08.49

David Hirsch

It's a stretch, particularly if they're a traditional relationship, dad works, mom stay at home. um But prioritizing those, you know, once a semester, a couple times a semester meetings, you know, most of us can juggle our schedules because those meetings are scheduled not a day or two in advance, but weeks, if not months in advance.

10:29.72

David Hirsch

And it's just a way to demonstrate through our actions, not just our words that, you know, we're present and You've probably heard me talk about the importance of being present.

10:41.94

David Hirsch

And I'll just make reference to it briefly that being present financially is what like is the bar that most dads are being held to. If you're a good provider, you know, the other things aren't as important, but I would argue that regardless of your ability to provide financially,

11:01.72

David Hirsch

that being present physically, emotionally, as well as spiritually are just as important and in some cases even more important to be there for your kids.

11:11.29

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, that's so interesting that you say that. Coming down the pipe a few episodes later, we're going to be ah releasing a panel interview. And the title of that interview is called The Provider Life.

11:27.16

Jonathan Guerrero

And we're tackling that very issue. it used to be, you know, 50 years ago and and more. Being a financial provider was the only definition of a provider.

11:41.05

Jonathan Guerrero

And you either met that criteria or you weren't a man, much less a provider for your home. And now that definition is changing.

11:52.15

Jonathan Guerrero

And not only that, but it's priority and position, it's changing. It's moved to the bottom. And now being emotionally stable, being an emotional provider,

12:03.22

Jonathan Guerrero

among other things. you know And then there's the physical, which is includes things like taking care of the house. So if something breaks, it's as a man, it's your responsibility to step up and make sure things in the home, appliances, things like that are in working order and functioning so that task in your home can operate smoothly.

12:24.22

Jonathan Guerrero

This is even privates prioritized above the financial. So if anything, the definition of of a provider has grown and the financial has moved further down.

12:40.31

David Hirsch

No question about it.

12:43.99

Jonathan Guerrero

Your book emphasizes the special father's network. Why is it that men specifically tend to isolate themselves when their child is diagnosed with a disability? And what is the cost of that isolation?

12:58.14

David Hirsch

ah Great question. um So for your listeners who don't know what the Special Fathers Network is, it's a dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising children with special needs.

13:09.59

David Hirsch

The concept is we have these more seasoned dads, we call them the Special Fathers Network mentor fathers, who on average have 10 or more years of experience raising a child with a disability, autism, Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, rare disease,

13:24.18

David Hirsch

Blind, deaf, missing a limb or limbs, no disabilities off limits. And we have just north of 900 dads who've agreed to be mentor fathers to come alongside these younger dads who are close to the beginning of their journey raising a child with a disability.

13:40.22

David Hirsch

So um the isolation question that you asked. most of the dads in the network, the mentor fathers have said almost to a person, i wish there was something like this when I was a younger dad.

13:57.46

David Hirsch

i felt so isolated. And what they're saying is that I didn't have anybody in my friend group, guys I went to school with, guys I work with, guys in my neighborhood that I could turn to or that would understand or appreciate, not even anybody in their family, in most cases, that could really appreciate what's going on at home.

14:16.38

David Hirsch

And they're a little bit hesitant to engage in conversation for a variety of reasons. um So we're filling this gap, this unmet need, right? By making somebody, providing ah an opportunity to have a relationship with somebody who's already been there and done that.

14:42.78

David Hirsch

And i would be quick to add that our mentor fathers don't give legal or ah medical advice. That's what lawyers and doctors do. This is just like practical advice on how did you handle situations you know from different um stages right in your child's development.

15:02.58

David Hirsch

um And that the isolation, i think, is self-imposed, not intentionally self-imposed, but it become it's a result of the uncertainty that's involved. Remember, Jonathan, we're the gender that doesn't pull over and ask for directions when we're lost.

15:24.92

David Hirsch

And a little tongue in cheek, I refer to this as testosterone poisoning. One of the side effects is the inability to accept advice, right?

15:32.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes.

15:33.75

David Hirsch

And the joke is, you know, if you're in your car, right, your spouse or whoever's sitting next to you says, hey I think we should pull over and ask for directions. You're like, No, I've got this right. I can figure this out.

15:44.31

David Hirsch

Right.

15:44.28

Jonathan Guerrero

Exactly.

15:45.54

David Hirsch

i'm I'm one of those guys. I mean, before GPS, there's no way I'm pulling over and asking him for directions. And we're talking about something as basic as how do you get from point A to point B in your vehicle.

15:51.59

Jonathan Guerrero

Yep.

15:57.08

David Hirsch

Now you apply that same problem solving approach to something more consequential, like being a parent or being a parent to a child with a disability, and you're gonna come up short, right? You're not gonna fix your kid, right? There is no fixed autism or Down syndrome or cerebral palsy or rare disease, right? And as fixers, most dads are fixers. Like we have a toolbox and we go to our toolbox and you know we try to figure out how to fix things.

16:22.55

David Hirsch

Well, when you can't fix something, right? It's frustrating. And it might lead to behavior that you know isn't going to be entirely healthy. It could be um disengaging, right?

16:35.51

David Hirsch

It could be alcohol, it could be drugs, it could be pornography, right? you know You might think, oh, my family is going better off without me, right? Because I can't do anything.

16:47.19

David Hirsch

So maybe we should split like mom and dad aren't going to be healthy together. Maybe it'll be healthier without me. And in the most extreme cases, guy gets so frustrated, he commits suicide, right?

16:59.84

David Hirsch

Unfortunately, that's not a huge problem, but it is an alternative. That is the solution that some people, you know, think is the solution. So if there's anything we can do to help these younger dads deal with the uncertainty that goes along with raising a child with a disability, you know, that's a huge step forward.

17:22.20

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, so I'm one of those dads that'll jump in with all the rest and say, yeah, I wish the i wish I knew about the Special Fathers Network when I was a dad. Because I would have loved to participate. I would have loved to have been involved with that.

17:35.26

Jonathan Guerrero

And I would have benefited from that. And here's why. I've done a few episodes on paternal postpartum depression. Which, yeah, that's a thing. Not only is that a thing, there's statistics on it.

17:47.26

Jonathan Guerrero

One in ten dads get it. And I was one of those that had it. And I had no help. I had no support. And that was coming off the pregnancy.

17:59.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Then you factor in an early type 1 diabetes diagnosis. I would have really, i could have used that. So yeah, this is why I appreciate that we're talking about it now.

18:14.65

Jonathan Guerrero

that that That boat has long left the dock for me, but it's right on time for somebody else. You provide a roadmap for the unexpected.

18:26.61

Jonathan Guerrero

What is the one piece of advice in the book for a dad walking into his first IEP meeting? And how does he lead in that room without becoming combative?

18:37.50

David Hirsch

Wow.

18:40.89

David Hirsch

I don't know that there's an easy way to answer that question about the first IEP meeting, but just being prepared, right? You know, understanding what's the purpose of an IEP meeting and, you know, maybe not going in with guns loaded, thinking, hey, I'm the leader. I'm going to be the one that's directing all this, but having some humility and being respectful right of the process.

19:07.93

David Hirsch

This is what these people in the educational world do. right you know You might be one of dozens, if not hundreds of families at that school that are participating in IEP meetings. So just recognize at least at first that there's a process, there's a system. It's been that way for years, if not decades.

19:28.38

David Hirsch

And i think the main objective is to make sure that everybody's on the same page, right? That the goals of the child are crystal clear and that um you want to make sure that

19:46.18

David Hirsch

you're being heard and understood. So there's a number of different strategies that I picked up on a that both parents are there.

19:57.21

David Hirsch

And in some cases, it's suggested that you have your child there. Right. So they're not speaking of your child sort of generically or just as another number. But, you know, there's the human being sitting there.

20:09.27

David Hirsch

Right. The child doesn't have to participate. They don't even have to fully appreciate or understand what's going on. But you know, there's another dimension, right? You have Option A, mom goes in, which is typical, no dad present.

20:24.02

David Hirsch

Option B, mom and dad go in, right? Your two is better than one mentality. Option three is to have a third person. And that third person logically would be the child who the IEP is being created for, the beneficiary, if you will.

20:41.53

David Hirsch

And then in some extreme examples, once you've been to these IEP meetings and you feel like you're not being heard or understood your situation's not being addressed, you can bring an advocate in, right?

20:55.16

David Hirsch

Um, somebody who's more experienced, right. Maybe with the legal ability of everything, right. To be there. Right. Um, I wouldn't suggest you start with that only because that's like playing hard ball.

21:08.54

David Hirsch

Like I'm bringing in a professional, right. Somebody who's, you know, I'm paying to be there alongside us. That would be, maybe a strategy that you would consider steps down the road, right? When you know you you might not be getting to where you'd like to be, or if they keep coming back and saying, oh, we don't have the resources for that, or we can't do this. You're getting a lot of no's.

21:32.79

David Hirsch

And then the one last thing I'd like to say about IEPs in reaction to your question, is there's a woman that I interviewed for the SFN Dad to Dad podcast. um Her name is Whittacher, Catherine Whittacher, and she's up in Wisconsin.

21:51.48

David Hirsch

And she is the queen of IEPs, right? She's been on both sides as a parent and as an educator and as an administrator. And she knows more about IEPs than most people will ever know.

22:04.18

David Hirsch

And she has some great resources for parents as it relates to IEPs. Catherine Whitticher. So please be sure to include some information in your show notes about how to contact her.

22:21.24

Jonathan Guerrero

ah Yes, and absolutely. As an as a side, would you mind sitting that as well when you can?

22:27.65

David Hirsch

to. I'll make a note.

22:28.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, and I'll make sure that gets in there.

22:31.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Statistically, the stress on a marriage with special needs with a special needs child is immense. In your interviews for the book, what did you find was a common denominator among the couples who don't just survive, but actually thrived?

22:49.85

David Hirsch

Another good question. um

22:54.33

David Hirsch

I don't know what the statistics are, Jonathan, about the incidence of divorce as relates to typical marriage versus a marriage that includes a child with a disability.

23:05.88

David Hirsch

But logically, if There's the extra stress and strain financial responsibility that goes along with disability diagnosis.

23:17.53

David Hirsch

You can only imagine that the incidence divorce would be higher. I don't know what the statistics are. and I don't to say I don't care, but that's not what's driven me to be involved and it's not going to change the action or our activities.

23:34.23

David Hirsch

So the question as I understood it was, what is it that helps parents thrive despite the fact that they have a child with a disability?

23:45.91

David Hirsch

What's the difference between those that are more successful or less successful? And

23:54.58

David Hirsch

i think what it boils down to is being aligned, right, in your goal of keeping your child's best interest you know at the forefront and that it has a lot to do with communication, um being able to articulate your your feelings, your aspirations, your fears,

24:24.22

David Hirsch

and not being judged, right? So giving another one another the grace like we were talking about earlier. And the importance of respite comes to mind.

24:39.71

David Hirsch

Couples respite where you're able to get away for a short period of time on a daily, weekly, monthly basis as a couple. It could be going to the grocery store together. It might be going out for a cup of coffee. It could be going for a walk.

24:55.86

David Hirsch

um Or could be more consequential where you can go out to dinner. or go away for an evening or a weekend or a week, right? Because you've got the type of coverage that you'd be comfortable with either family-wise or otherwise.

25:11.80

David Hirsch

um The concept of respite goes beyond couples respite. It would be individual respite where each of the parents, mom or dad, gives the other, you know, the opportunity to pursue something that's important to them that might not be on the family's behalf directly. And it could be a hobby.

25:32.18

David Hirsch

It could be something that is a priority to like get together with guys in the neighborhood or guys they went to school with or something that's important to mom to get together with their girlfriends locally or you know girlfriends that might live a longer distance away where you're getting on a plane or driving someplace. And I think this concept of being able to maintain some level of, if you will, normalcy, right with your relationships so that it's not all about hunkering down and, you know,

26:08.79

David Hirsch

having to be there every minute of every day, 24 seven with your kids and being disciplined or intentional about finding the time as a couple, finding time individually.

26:21.08

David Hirsch

And I think that that respite allows us to recharge our batteries and bring our A game. And the last thing I'll say is the importance of self-care, not just for dads, but for moms as well.

26:35.54

David Hirsch

um staying healthy from a physical standpoint, an emotional standpoint, so that you know you're not getting burned out.

26:45.85

David Hirsch

And it's really easy to talk about those things, but in the heat of battle, trying to manage just the balance between work and family is a pretty big challenge for most, but finding the time to take care of yourself.

26:59.77

David Hirsch

And there was a guy that I interviewed super early on with the Special Fathers Network, Dad to Dad podcast. His name is Rob Gorski. And Rob is in, I think, Canton, Ohio, three boys, all three of them are on the spectrum and they have like a flurry of other diagnosis.

27:17.56

David Hirsch

The autism is not like the biggest challenge of things. um And Rob, had done a lot of journaling was his therapy.

27:28.82

David Hirsch

It morphed into something called the Autism Dad. It's pretty interesting platform that he's created for himself. And he was the first person I heard say, it's important to be self-ish before you can be selfless.

27:44.89

David Hirsch

the importance of taking care of yourself first so that you can bring your A game and be more consistent for being there for your kids, being there for your family.

27:59.77

Jonathan Guerrero

Dads often worry about typical typical siblings being overlooked. What does your book say about maintaining a level ah level playing field of attention and leadership for all your children?

28:13.96

David Hirsch

Isaac, that's a great question. I'm going to paraphrase it to make sure I understood. i think the question you're asking is about siblings and family balance. um And the point you're making, the question that you're asking sort of bags, the fact that if you have more than one child and let's say you have a typical child and one or more typical children,

28:44.38

David Hirsch

um you're a father to all of your children, not just the one that has a diagnosis. And unfortunately, at least early on when there is a diagnosis, there's a disproportionate amount of time and resources, in some cases, financial resources as well, that the parents are drawn to because of the child with a disability. And it's super important for parents to be reminded that their parents to all their children.

29:16.15

David Hirsch

And if there are three children, just as an example, it's unlikely in any situation that each child is gonna get a third, a third, a third of their parents' time and resources.

29:27.94

David Hirsch

It's just statistically improbable, but we wanna be equitable, I think as parents and make sure that, you know, we're blind we're not blind to the fact that, you know,

29:41.78

David Hirsch

the fact that there's a person in the family with a disability isn't only impacting the parents, it's impacting their siblings as well. And to maintain open lines of communication about how this is impacting the siblings, super important.

29:59.77

David Hirsch

And to be able to do things one-on-one with each of your children, right? to demonstrate that they're a priority, that they're just as important, a member of the family as anybody else.

30:13.18

David Hirsch

And trying to create these routines, weekly, monthly, quarterly, at least annually, that you're doing things, you know, one-on-one, with each of your kids.

30:25.37

David Hirsch

Now, I realize that depending on the severity of somebody's disability, that it might be impractical to do things as a family, like traveling overnight or for the weekend or for long distances.

30:40.38

David Hirsch

And that the practical solution in some cases is that the typical siblings and the parents go on a vacation without their handicapped or disabled child.

30:54.07

David Hirsch

Now that's not good or bad, but that's just the reality of trying to maintain, you know, some level of normalcy. So to address the question you asked Isaac, I don't think it's a one size fits all, but I think as long as parents are aware of this issue of siblings and family balance and are intentional about it,

31:14.39

David Hirsch

then it's unlikely that somebody is gonna realize a year or years or a decade down the road that you know there was an issue that wasn't being addressed. And the last thing I'll say is that there are something called SIBS networks, sibling organizations. There's a national SIBS network, and then there are local chapters.

31:34.04

David Hirsch

So for any of the parents that are listening, If this is an issue, right, that is a priority or important, I would strongly suggest they get plugged into one of the local SIBs networks.

31:53.57

Jonathan Guerrero

Disability often comes with might with massive financial burden. How does the book offer any wisdom on how a father can lead his family through the economic pivot that often follows a diagnosis?

32:07.26

David Hirsch

Holy moly. um Well, I'm thinking about what's in the book. And then I'm also thinking about what is it I do for a living. And I'm certainly not able to give financial advice on a podcast or generically, but Practically speaking, i think that um because one of our big priorities as a parent or as a dad for that matter is to be a financial provider, i think it would be critical, super important to make sure that you do the foundational things. um

32:40.70

David Hirsch

And the first is to have the proper level of life insurance.

32:44.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you.

32:44.86

David Hirsch

Right. It's remarkable to me in my 41 years as a professional financial advisor, when I'm meeting with a couple for the first time and I'm doing a full, very broad, you know, arms around getting an understanding about where they're at, what's going on.

33:01.98

David Hirsch

I'm shocked by the lack of things like life insurance and wills. Right. So I think it's super important that the dad takes the lead and doesn't um be a subordinate to the mom to take the lead on what we're talking about. So two basic things, make sure the wills are in place, guardians have been identified you know through the wills and that you have adequate level of life insurance.

33:34.62

David Hirsch

So in the unlikely event that something happens to dad, if he's the primary breadwinner, it's not gonna leave the family in a lurch. Those are the two basic things that come to mind. Beyond that, I think another responsibility that the dad probably should take the initiative on is to do the financial planning with individuals who are more experienced.

34:01.33

David Hirsch

There's something called the Special Needs Alliance, which is a group of about 150, more 200 attorneys around the US who have committed more than 50% or more of their practices to serving the disability community.

34:15.61

David Hirsch

And these are the eagles within the financial planning world who have dedicated themselves to serving families with disability. And when I say financial planning, I'm talking about from a legal perspective, not from an investment perspective.

34:30.65

David Hirsch

and making sure that if there is a need for special needs trusts to be set up, that you engage sooner than later and educate yourself um about what's involved and align yourself with somebody that could provide you with those services as early as practical. And the reason i suggest that is that it's going to take some of the burden off of your mind of what happens in all these different scenarios.

34:59.13

David Hirsch

um Oftentimes, parents who have a child with a disability are either looking backwards, grieving the coulda, woulda, shoulda type of situation.

35:10.55

David Hirsch

What would our lives be like if we didn't have a child with a disability mentality? robbing themselves of being present in their child's lives by always looking backwards. And then thinking about it the other direction, they're worrying about the future, right? All these different scenarios, who's going to take care of my child?

35:30.26

David Hirsch

You know, what's going to happen after I'm gone? You know, all these concerns that are logical, right? We're human beings, right? So I think by going through the planning process, it erases some of the uncertainty because you've thought through it. It's not easy.

35:47.38

David Hirsch

It's not like one short conversation. It's a process. But if you align yourself with people that have the level of experience that I'm referring to, hopefully it irons out some of the wrinkles and takes away some of the anxiety that goes along with the fear of the future.

36:04.63

Jonathan Guerrero

If you're listening to this and you're that dad, the one who just got the diagnosis, the one sitting in the hospital parking lot, or the one struggling to find the words to explain things to your other kids, I want you to hear this.

36:19.10

Jonathan Guerrero

The map has changed, but the mission remains. You were chosen for this specific journey because you have the capacity to be the advocate, the protector, and the hero that your child needs.

36:32.47

Jonathan Guerrero

But as David has shown us today, a hero without a squad is just a target. You don't have to carry the weight of this diagnosis on your own shoulders. David's book, Dad's Raising Children with Special Needs and Disabilities, is your new tactical manual.

36:48.62

Jonathan Guerrero

It's filled with the collective wisdom of over a thousand fathers who have walked exactly where you're standing. It's got the strategy you need for meetings, the heart you need for the hard nights, and even the dad jokes that you need to keep your spirits intact.

37:04.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Order the book. You can find dads raising children with special needs and disabilities right now on Amazon. We've placed a direct link right below the episode description to make it super easy.

37:16.34

Jonathan Guerrero

Just look for the episode called Strength and Strategy for Special Needs Dads. I'll say it again. Strength and Strategy for Special Needs Dads.

37:28.76

Jonathan Guerrero

if you If you want to connect with the Special Fathers Network or find a mastermind group of men who get it, head over to 21stCenturyDads.org. That's 21stCenturyDads.org.

37:41.75

Jonathan Guerrero

That link will also be below the episode description. Your child's disability is not a detour. It's a new territory where your leadership is needed more than ever.

37:54.04

Jonathan Guerrero

Get the book, find your tribe, and keep standing tall. A big, big thank you to David Hirsch for his decades of service to fathers everywhere. Until next time, stay durable, stay present, and remember that your presence is the greatest gift your family will ever receive.

38:13.90

Jonathan Guerrero

We'll see you in the next episode.

38:18.10

David Hirsch

Jonathan, that was terrific. Thank you so much.

 This episode is an update on the Ancientz franchise. If the Ancientz sounds familiar it’s because the Ancientz characters were featured in the episode called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. If you haven’t listened to that episode, I would encourage you to stop and listen to that episode first, and then come back to this one so everything will have context. Now we’re going to get an update on the growth of the Ancientz franchise and how you can get your own Ancientz characters.

Learn more about Ancientz and place orders at https://ancientz.com/

Find resources and information about The Fatherhood Challenge at https://linktr.ee/thefatherhoodchallenge

Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:05.56

Jonathan Guerrero

This episode is an update on the Ancients franchise. If the Ancients sounds familiar, it's because the Ancients characters were featured in an episode called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. If you haven't listened to that episode, I would encourage you to stop and listen to that episode first and then come back to this one so everything will have context and make sense.

00:26.52

Jonathan Guerrero

Now we're going to get an update on the growth of the Ancients franchise. and how you can get your own Ancients characters. And we're going to do all this in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.

01:16.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my co-host Isaac. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge. I am very pleased to have the creator of the Ancients franchise here with us.

01:28.54

Jonathan Guerrero

And he's here.

01:29.12

Howard Quiggly Chang

Hi.

01:29.34

Jonathan Guerrero

He's joining us remotely. His name is Howard Chang. Howard, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

01:35.06

Howard Quiggly Chang

Hey, thanks for having me back again. ah appreciate this.

01:40.06

Jonathan Guerrero

So I got to start out with my favorite dad joke. What is the best way to save your dad jokes?

01:49.24

Howard Quiggly Chang

I have no idea.

01:51.22

Jonathan Guerrero

What? In a data and a database.

01:55.61

Howard Quiggly Chang

Ah, okay.

01:59.77

Howard Quiggly Chang

Love it

02:02.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Isaac doesn't look so good. You ready for the next one?

02:08.80

Howard Quiggly Chang

it. Am I ready?

02:09.11

Jonathan Guerrero

the The next joke?

02:09.62

Howard Quiggly Chang

Should I be?

02:10.03

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes. Oh, yeah you got two? I'm sorry, there's two. ah Howard, bear with me.

02:17.72

Howard Quiggly Chang

I'm brazing.

02:19.74

Jonathan Guerrero

So I learned something really interesting yesterday. yesterday Apparently, dogs can't operate um ah um MRI machines, but cats can.

02:34.99

Howard Quiggly Chang

That's cute.

02:36.46

Jonathan Guerrero

All right.

02:37.97

Howard Quiggly Chang

Oh, I got one. ah why did the Why did the tomato blush?

02:39.08

Jonathan Guerrero

Can we, can we?

02:43.08

Jonathan Guerrero

Why?

02:44.31

Howard Quiggly Chang

Because he saw the salad dressing.

02:50.94

Howard Quiggly Chang

that That was probably the worst one today. yeah

02:53.78

Jonathan Guerrero

I like that one.

02:56.18

Howard Quiggly Chang

That's lovely.

02:58.36

Jonathan Guerrero

We got a bonus today. Three jokes. We don't even get one joke sometimes. Oh, that's true.

03:06.42

Howard Quiggly Chang

Okay. so So now that we lost all our list listeners.

03:07.12

Jonathan Guerrero

Ugh.

03:13.85

Jonathan Guerrero

oh

03:16.41

Jonathan Guerrero

Howard, this is a question that has been picking on my mind for a bit. And actually, these two questions are going to be in the same one. Why? Because they both have something to do with the same place.

03:28.92

Jonathan Guerrero

So one time, me and my dad were walking into a trading card store, since I love football cards and I collect them. I guess that's like a hobby that I do. I like collecting football cards.

03:40.71

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah.

03:41.11

Jonathan Guerrero

And inside of that store, i we saw a bunch of Lego sets, which was kind of weird even though it's a trading card store. But anyway, we came inside and we saw bunch of Lego sets.

03:52.98

Jonathan Guerrero

And this leads down to my first question. I asked my dad, I'm like, hmm, what if they made Lego ancients? And he's like, hmm, whoa, whoa, whoa! And he was like, whoa, that's actually not a bad idea!

04:06.49

Jonathan Guerrero

if So have you considered... And I said it just like that. That's not a idea. So have you considered making trading cards or a Lego version of ancients?

04:21.42

Howard Quiggly Chang

That's a very good question. You know, this Ancients franchise, it's not not limited to what we're doing. I'm only doing what we're doing, making the art toys, collectible figurines, because number one, we can afford to do that, kind of, and that's something we can do right away.

04:41.08

Howard Quiggly Chang

But a lot of exciting things to share today. we have a huge story that's about to be released. and Nothing's impossible. I mean, I was at the LA comic con in, in November of 2025. And I saw a lot of vendors selling Legos that are, at are like, you know, Batman Legos and all that. There's, you can do Legos as those tiny figures that you can put on your Lego sets, or you can actually do a whole license, something with Lego to do an actual build.

05:16.34

Howard Quiggly Chang

You know, you can like, I don't know if you remember the thing called bionics or something like that. um But we could do something like that as long as they're okay with it and we can sell it to them. We'd love to have a Lego ancients.

05:32.98

Howard Quiggly Chang

And as far as trading cards are concerned, yeah, I have a lot of friends who are really into trading cards. I used to collect. and I actually have a bunch of football cards, Isaac. I have a like real old ones from my past. have a bunch of Emmett Smiths still in their case and everything. so i got I know all about cards, but um you know when you do trading cards like Pokemon or One Piece,

06:02.46

Howard Quiggly Chang

And we're a perfect match for it because we're gonna have we could have thousands of characters. so There are so many characters in the Bible. So we really align the Ancients franchise to be a mix between Robotech. If you look it up, it's a really cool robot show I used to watch when I was a kid mixed with Pokemon.

06:23.70

Howard Quiggly Chang

Pokemon because there's so many characters that that can come out of it. You know, the prophets, the the legends, to the villains.

06:29.63

Jonathan Guerrero

you you know

06:30.36

Howard Quiggly Chang

So there's there's a whole opportunity there. So we we've been actually talking to a couple of ah board game companies, and they also specialize in in cards. And I was at the West Coast Card Show last year, and there are people very interested in helping me build an ancient card set.

06:51.77

Howard Quiggly Chang

out but it takes a lot of work because um if you know pokemon and one piece they're actually games they have their powers and their strengths and you can like compete against each other right so that part's hard to figure out but once that's ready it could be tied into a board game or something but Yeah, car trading cars are definitely 100%. We're gonna do that.

07:17.18

Howard Quiggly Chang

As soon as you find the right partner and Legos man, I mean, Isaac, I'd love to do it.

07:23.06

Jonathan Guerrero

yeah i mean i'm like really in the trading cards and i love them so that's just that's good to hear

07:27.56

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah.

07:30.10

Jonathan Guerrero

on

07:30.26

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, a whole world of trading cards has have opened up to me. They're saying that trading cards now are a better investment than stock or stocks or even Bitcoin, right?

07:41.94

Howard Quiggly Chang

So we'll see where it goes with the ancient trading cards. It could be the the big thing.

07:47.14

Jonathan Guerrero

That actually makes a lot of sense to me because there is less volatility in the trading card industry than there is in crypto and Bitcoin.

07:55.99

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, yeah. I mean...

07:56.98

Jonathan Guerrero

Or even the stock market.

07:58.51

Howard Quiggly Chang

It's really hard to break in to trading cards unless you have a lot of things in place, like number one, the game and everything. So what they're saying is before you tie into a company that can help manufacture and get the trading cards out to the market, they're saying that I should start drawing and doing some one-offs, right? Original, right?

08:24.57

Howard Quiggly Chang

like David and Goliath trading card. And I'll just sketch it out. And these are one of the kinds and um it'll get the ball rolling. So that's something that I'm considering, but we got, we'll talk about it today on the show, but there's a lot of things going on right now.

08:42.07

Jonathan Guerrero

Good to hear. Why are ancient robots instead of humans? For example, why do you think God wanted it that way?

08:52.38

Howard Quiggly Chang

um I don't know if I ah shared it with you guys on the first episode, but, um you know, when I first thought of ancients, you know, it was, I wanted something to buy for my kids who were roughly four, six, and nine at the time. And um I was looking it up, like, what can I get for my kids that's, you know, Bible-facing, right?

09:17.94

Howard Quiggly Chang

something that you know could you can you can share your your faith with. And I couldn't find anything. The only thing I said i found were you know just David and Goliath wearing a loincloth and fighting each other. And I guarantee if I bought that for my kids, they would disown me.

09:34.26

Howard Quiggly Chang

I wouldn't be here today. right

09:35.94

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you.

09:36.50

Howard Quiggly Chang

but um So during a time of prayer, I was in prayer, i was looking at, I was near the Christmas tree and I'm like, the the Christmas tree, the Christmas is, um you know, celebrating Jesus' birthday and nothing beyond secular is interesting to anybody to get gifts for during Christmas.

10:01.11

Howard Quiggly Chang

So I just imagined what I could create since I had a background in toys, Ninja Turtles and Star Trek and what have in the past. And man, in prayer, i was getting I was getting these visions and there were robots. And i maybe because I grew up loving robots, you know, and oh what cooler thing than robots for kids to want for christmas right and these these images would and let's just continue to to to come and it was mainly during prayer and i would actually see shapes and images and i would draw it out and on on paper and um you know 10 years later and i had a few times when i was trying to pursue it but i got busy

10:25.46

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah. yeah

10:46.55

Howard Quiggly Chang

But here I am, and these images I had during prayer are now on paper and in 3D form.

10:55.58

Jonathan Guerrero

Well, Japan has heavily influenced the comic industry. And so I'm wondering if maybe God had Japan in his sights.

11:04.86

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, I mean, if you know... ah i'm I'm Korean American, but I know that a lot of my friends have been to Japan. It's really spiritually challenged ah when it comes to biblical teaching and and faith.

11:24.95

Howard Quiggly Chang

And yeah I mean, Japan... led the world with anime right all the all the robots the the first one i used to really enjoy when i was a kid was mazinga and they had you know all these shogun warriors um robotech came from their uh gunnam uh robots and maybe i don't know maybe god wants us to penetrate japan with these robots that come from america

11:58.94

Jonathan Guerrero

Have you made more characters yet?

12:01.91

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yes, I've always been designing them, but just a long story short, we're just trying to get these out right now as soon as we can. and As soon as they're out and as soon as we can um just...

12:17.88

Howard Quiggly Chang

get the ball rolling, I'm really ready to release them and finish them up. I have ah an amazing Pharaoh character, but I just need to finish it up a little bit. ah Moses will be coming out. We're coming out with the prophet models.

12:32.34

Jonathan Guerrero

Arrow

12:32.62

Howard Quiggly Chang

isaiah Isaiah, you know, and and Daniel and everyone else. But yeah, I mean, this is going to be ongoing. We're going to have, i mean, we're excited. i mean, we're starting with eight characters, which you already guys already know.

12:46.46

Howard Quiggly Chang

But you know

12:47.69

Jonathan Guerrero

Isaac's excited right now like you should see him.

12:49.62

Howard Quiggly Chang

we're trying to come out with everything.

12:50.30

Jonathan Guerrero

He's in shock What talking about?

12:52.70

Howard Quiggly Chang

But if you see...

12:53.85

Jonathan Guerrero

I'm in shock. You're also in shock, too. Okay. I am a little bit too. Yeah see

12:57.72

Howard Quiggly Chang

I'm in shock, guys. You know? And this this is like, imagine if this is God's work, imagine what but what else he's going to come up with. Right. I mean, imagine Pharaoh holding his staff and like Cobra figure coming out of the top of his he helmet.

13:15.77

Howard Quiggly Chang

And then he's got the the colors. And yes, it's exciting.

13:27.43

Jonathan Guerrero

Have you made the games or the movies yet? Are there plans to do so?

13:31.93

Howard Quiggly Chang

um

13:34.23

Jonathan Guerrero

But if you told me, then you'd have to kill me.

13:34.26

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yes.

13:37.05

Howard Quiggly Chang

ah Well, there's a ah lot of things happening now, as I mentioned before at the start of the podcast. Exciting stuff. um We have a meeting with a major toy company, a second meeting now. They want us to bring in the story bible.

13:54.07

Howard Quiggly Chang

tomorrow at 1 p.m. on the 7th of March. So it's exciting. We had ah our first meeting three months ago, two months ago, I think, and then they want us back in.

14:06.62

Howard Quiggly Chang

And um I can't name names, but they have toys in Walmart, Toys R Us. I mean, not Toys R Us, Target, Amazon, everywhere. right They're major toy company. um I was shocked at first. I didn't think they would be interested in anything spiritual, but...

14:25.40

Howard Quiggly Chang

they actually thought it was pretty cool. And what we've been working on, a story bible is basically if you have any IP, that's intellectual property, like toys, figures, whatever,

14:40.25

Howard Quiggly Chang

Like what world do they live in What are the elements? Give us a detail of each character, what they like, what what their strengths are and everything. So we created a story Bible and we got help from one of our advisors, our close friend, who is a movie producer.

14:59.00

Howard Quiggly Chang

He worked on a lot of Will Smith films, right? So he's helped us draw up an amazing story. There's lot of human characters in there. with The guy who created it, the 10-year-old son who was ah who was a prodigy who figured out the last step to get the spirits into the robots.

15:19.45

Howard Quiggly Chang

And then it's like five years later, him and his group of friends are actually the main force fighting Professor Ball's attempt to take over the world with Goliath, Sarah, Pharaoh, and all the the villains in the Bible.

15:33.24

Howard Quiggly Chang

So, yeah, I mean, another meeting ah tomorrow. And the story Bible is being sent to a production company who has a lot of shows on Netflix. They're having a meeting with about ancients coming up.

15:50.28

Jonathan Guerrero

What were God's original intentions for ancients?

15:55.48

Howard Quiggly Chang

um you like I can't tell you, but from my feelings and my thoughts is that from how the idea came was I wanted the Bible to be represented in the coolest way possible.

16:12.38

Howard Quiggly Chang

um the way the world was turning, every time you mentioned the Bible, people's heads look away. I don't know if you've noticed, right?

16:23.06

Howard Quiggly Chang

The Bible's the number one best-selling book ever to humanity. And I wanted the stories to be exposed.

16:35.19

Howard Quiggly Chang

And like the ancients are not going to reproduce the stories in the Bible, but they're the characters that that were in the stories. And I wanted to bring them out, and I wanted to bring the curiosity of people to learn about the the stories in the Bible. That has changed my life and millions of people's lives just by bringing hope. you know And if you look at all the the heroes in the Bible, there weren't any superheroes like Batman or Superman. There were just broken people, in a lot of them.

17:05.14

Howard Quiggly Chang

Just the regular Joes who um decided to use faith instead of doing things that aren't on accord.

17:16.92

Jonathan Guerrero

One thing I find that's interesting is when God lays out a master plan for your life and he gives you what seems like an impossible assignment. And the part of this, I'm speaking from my own experience.

17:29.85

Jonathan Guerrero

One, God gives you the tools to do it. And number two his purpose is twofold. And one purpose is you, your own spiritual and personal and character development.

17:44.15

Jonathan Guerrero

that you can't undertake a task like that and not grow. those two just go together. You're going to be challenged. You're going to have times when you're facing a wall that you cannot get over in your humanity. And the only way you're going to get past that challenge is your faith in God. It's to trust God to get you past that challenge to do the impossible.

18:09.02

Jonathan Guerrero

So you grow. And then the other part of it is God just has a bleeding heart for humanity. Literally a bleeding heart for humanity.

18:21.05

Jonathan Guerrero

through what Jesus did, so much so that a lot of these Comic-Cons are our demonic turf. And we talked about this in the last episode that we did. There are a lot of demonically influenced characters that appear at these events.

18:37.30

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah. yep

18:38.01

Jonathan Guerrero

And so God is sending you and sending ancients into demonic turf. And the playbook is the same. So when these kids walk up to a demonically inspired character, and they get curious about it, and they pick it up, and they handle it and they play with it, and they ask questions, and they're curious.

18:57.53

Jonathan Guerrero

That is consent. That is an open door. And many of those kids and adults will walk out of those events with a with a demonic spirit attached to them that will stay with them until something changes, until that consent changes.

19:15.26

Jonathan Guerrero

So by the same token, the same rules apply to the Holy Spirit's side. So when you're showing up with these events and kids are showing up and you've told me about the lines where they're just curious and they want to know what these characters are, they want to know what the writing is on the side, how they can find the original story so they can read it for themselves.

19:34.16

Howard Quiggly Chang

Mm-hmm.

19:38.22

Jonathan Guerrero

That is also consent. That is also an open door, but for the Holy Spirit this time. You know, that actually, um at the beginning there, when you're talking about how God will give you specific assignment, He'll give you a task that feels impossible, that reminded me a lot about Moses.

19:57.21

Jonathan Guerrero

And another part, because also like you were saying at the very end of of what you're talking about there, when you come home with handling those ancients, And that's why they have, and like Howard has said, um that's why they have the writing on the side of it. So then you can find it. So that you can find where it is in the Bible.

20:17.30

Howard Quiggly Chang

Right. um I think Jonathan, you hit a good point. You know, the whole industry of collectibles and the entertainment in general is all about just ah ah the mean, wicked look of a character that looks so awesome, that blood coming out of this it's its fangs. You know what i mean? um That's what's been leading all entertainment lately, majority of it, right?

20:51.77

Howard Quiggly Chang

And you know this ah this is a gargantuan task. um you know I remember somewhere that you know when you want to do something, don't do something where you think you can handle it is within your means.

21:06.68

Howard Quiggly Chang

do something that's God-sized, that's impossible. um to To create an IP like this, to create something that we think can have international appeal, like some kid in Africa one day, never even heard of what the Bible is, looks at it, collects it, loves it.

21:24.98

Howard Quiggly Chang

And then somehow he's interested in the the background story and everything. Yeah, that is the vision. But to have that vision, you need half a billion dollars. You need 500 million to just even have a chance at doing something like this.

21:41.14

Howard Quiggly Chang

So, you know, when God tells you to do something God's eyes, do something that you know you can't do with your own power. And if ancients does become a world...

21:52.98

Howard Quiggly Chang

wide sensation you know for sure it wasn't me i grew like you said during that process but it was definitely god doing the work and he will be glorified and we we just know that when he gives you an assignment don't shy away don't overthink it thinking i need this much money i don't have it so i can't do it You know, just go for it. like Like Isaac said, reminds me of Moses, right? And all the characters, of car characters in the Bible, Joseph, Daniel, you you name it.

22:31.61

Jonathan Guerrero

What feedback have you been getting from others about ancients?

22:36.28

Howard Quiggly Chang

Oh, man, I think so far, I'd like to say 99% excitement. The 1% are some people that were saying, I don't know why toys would be so expensive. And ah we just respond, it's not toys. These are collectible from the artists themselves.

22:55.38

Howard Quiggly Chang

When the toys come out, let's say the the mainstream toys come out, they will be around $12 to $20 right? Because they have the full manufacturing capacity. And some people would say, actually quote that these look demonic.

23:11.46

Howard Quiggly Chang

Well, they could... They can see it from many different views, right? But overall, people love it. lot of great feedback.

23:23.83

Jonathan Guerrero

How has the Christian community helped with the sharing of ancients with the world?

23:28.63

Howard Quiggly Chang

Oh, they love it. um So far, the the small community that that we're involved with. I don't know if you know, but we we also did the Alpha Omega Con, which is a a Christian and biblical convention that was here in SoCal. We're going to go again.

23:46.40

Howard Quiggly Chang

It's, a you know, I mean, the main thing with this project is we need all the connections. We need to raise money to get to where we want to get.

23:58.01

Howard Quiggly Chang

But it it has been easy. When the word money comes into play, a lot of people shy away. And I don't expect everybody to you know to come in. But we're we're faithful that God will provide.

24:14.55

Jonathan Guerrero

I know in the last episode, you mentioned that even at most of the popular Comic Cons, there's still interest. There's still curiosity for these characters. What has been your experience with that curiosity at other Comic Cons?

24:30.81

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, you know, um we didn't do many. We've only done Comic-Con. Where we go? We did one to a few smaller events San Diego. We did the DesignerCon in Las Vegas.

24:45.53

Howard Quiggly Chang

We walked around and and got support from LA Comic-Con. And in two weeks, we'll be at WonderCon here in Anaheim.

24:57.18

Howard Quiggly Chang

But overall, not it's not always Christians that come by, but especially if they're people of faith, they would come over and say, hey, you know, my son's name is Nehemiah. Please make Nehemiah soon. And we get a lot of great support from believers, even the nonbelievers. They just come over and just love to look and feel of it.

25:18.10

Howard Quiggly Chang

They would ask when it's going to be available. And a Number one thing, let me jump to something. The biggest problem we've been having is, you know how all of our characters' our eyes light up?

25:30.30

Howard Quiggly Chang

And, you know, yeah, that's that's the hardest thing to do when it comes to manufacturing.

25:30.74

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, I love that feature. That's the coolest part about them almost. Almost.

25:36.53

Howard Quiggly Chang

And it took us this long just to get the lighting feature to two so we can be able to um recharge it with the USB-C cord and have that that button and make it fit for all the characters.

25:50.17

Howard Quiggly Chang

And But you know what? I'm not going to shy away. A lot of people said, just take away the lighting feature and you'll be able to sell it like tomorrow. But we've been delaying just to get that lighting feature going.

26:02.97

Howard Quiggly Chang

And most people love the lighting feature. And one of my main goals is to have a light in a dark world, right? Especially when you imagine your your ancient eyes are lit up at night.

26:16.66

Howard Quiggly Chang

You know, how great is that? You know?

26:17.82

Jonathan Guerrero

yeah Yeah, I can just picture laying down in my in my room at night and just staring off to the side and looking at the eyes blowing up on them. Isaac votes to keep the lights.

26:28.60

Howard Quiggly Chang

Exactly.

26:30.33

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes, I vote to keep the lights.

26:32.82

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, I mean, yeah, people that we did a survey at DesignerCon. And what's your favorite feature? And most people said they love the light lighted eyes, right?

26:43.26

Howard Quiggly Chang

and

26:43.35

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, also love with the hair flowing back behind him i don't know if it's hairs, but yeah.

26:47.32

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah, well, what it is, it's it's called the Luminara. It's in the story Bible. So the technology, they're robots, but they're operated by spirits, right? But the there's a glowing or orb, like for David, it's is's light blue.

27:03.58

Howard Quiggly Chang

And there's like flowing tendrils that come out of it, like an octopus, right? And that's this that's what encases and holds the spirits. And once it's put into the robots, that spirit operates that robot.

27:17.69

Howard Quiggly Chang

So it's almost like a kind of a predator kind of feeling, which I loved watching when I was a kid. I still do. i love predator. And that was my influence.

27:34.30

Jonathan Guerrero

Do you have any testimonies of or testimonials of how Anxious has helped to share the truth of the Bible and who Jesus is with others, especially with kids?

27:46.23

Howard Quiggly Chang

ah You know, not as of yet, because we're not out there in the market yet. We we haven't sold. We have all the pre-orders from Kickstarter and our website, but it's not in people's hands yet.

27:59.67

Howard Quiggly Chang

I can't really say, but I'll give you a testimony. and I'm doing this. We know that it's going to take all the faith in the world to to just keep our head above water.

28:10.78

Howard Quiggly Chang

And, you know, we, Gloria, my wife and I, we've been going to this local church that has a morning service every single day, rain or shine. And we wake up 5.30 every day. every day we We said, let's do it three times a week. We've we've been going six times a week.

28:29.18

Howard Quiggly Chang

And Sunday is it church service. But we've been we feel like, dude, we've got to go. at first, it was hard waking up at 5.20 every morning. But now, like we depend on it.

28:40.31

Howard Quiggly Chang

So like going back to answer your previous question, yeah, I mean, it's a... We've been growing spiritually just by working on this project.

28:54.23

Jonathan Guerrero

How can dads find Ancients characters for their kids?

28:58.16

Howard Quiggly Chang

Um... it's going to be available soon like i said we're still manufacturing it's taking a long time mainly because of the lights and the money situation but if you go to ancients.com that's ancients with the z not a s all our characters our information's on the website you can see the link to our instagram and everything but now we have a pre-order website open And we're anticipating shipping this out next month in April, mid-April or so.

29:30.14

Howard Quiggly Chang

um The initial first series is called the Alpha Series because we don't quite have the money to do full manufacturing overseas yet. Only the light pieces are done overseas, and going to Actually, you may want to get the Alpha series because it's going to be a limited edition. We're going to make it by hand.

29:49.71

Howard Quiggly Chang

I'm going to be hand painting it myself, most of them. So that's what that's going to be available.

29:53.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh yeah, we definitely want those.

29:56.33

Howard Quiggly Chang

And then once the Alpha series is done, we might have the Beta series where We're going to just order maybe 10,000 pieces. But once we get to full production, you know hopefully we have them multi-million dollar investment. We're going to be able to do full production with our factories overseas.

30:14.87

Jonathan Guerrero

So just to make things easier, if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com, And if you go to the episode called An Update on the Ancients Franchise, and An Update on the Ancients Franchise, look right below the episode description. I'm going to have the links that were mentioned posted right there for your convenience.

30:38.81

Jonathan Guerrero

So, Howard, as we close, what is your challenge for dads listening?

30:45.56

Howard Quiggly Chang

Oh man, I personally, i have three kids of my own. As you know, I've been a single dad for 13 years. So my oldest daughter just turned 21.

31:02.01

Howard Quiggly Chang

My second's in college now in UC Riverside, 18. My youngest one's an 11th grader. You know, i've I've learned a lot being a single dad I've learned a now i'm remarried with gloria so we she has two kids so 23 turning 24 and 22 so yeah i'm i can say i'm a father of five kids one of the things i learned um going through fatherhood is you know sometimes you gotta let the kids fail i mean what i see nowadays parents are just overly trying to control

31:43.77

Howard Quiggly Chang

their future. They're trying to provide everything and it's it's natural. But sometimes I feel like when you let the kids fail, you know, you don't have to guide them every moment.

31:58.58

Howard Quiggly Chang

That's when they learn the most. And sometimes I feel like we humans in general need to fail. And sooner than later, we seek the Lord.

32:15.12

Jonathan Guerrero

I absolutely love that. And i will add to that. What we add the most as dads is that safety, that safety environment, that safe environment to fail where it is safe to fail, to experience that failure.

32:33.66

Jonathan Guerrero

So absolutely love what you said there. Howard, a huge, huge thank you Isaac, do you have anything before we close? Any thoughts? you good?

32:45.33

Jonathan Guerrero

Nope. All right. Well, thank you so much, Howard, for being on the Fatherhood Challenge. This was a really, really fun conversation.

32:53.56

Howard Quiggly Chang

I had a good time. i Hopefully we'll do another one when everything's available.

32:58.01

Jonathan Guerrero

um would love that.

32:59.22

Howard Quiggly Chang

Yeah.

32:59.45

Jonathan Guerrero

um so so i'm I'm so excited for when they are available.

33:03.54

Howard Quiggly Chang

very soon guys

In Part 2 of our conversation with Jerold Limongelli, we learned from his testimony how dads can protect their kids and their families from spiritual deception. If you haven't listened to part 1 in the previous episode, it is strongly recommended that you do so for context before listening to part 2. His testimony was powerful!

To connect with Jerold Limongelli or learn more about what he is doing, visit: https://taplink.cc/thekingdommindedman?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnQkyLhDXosRqWd8JaheU-ZPZELpPRAlb4A43C-qdpXeMDl27JKpBgdJsXoNw_aem_yaLcAthlJ587o3vdKsAJlA

Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

When the 'Self' is your only god, you have no anchor when the storm hits. And as dads, if we don't know how to spot the counterfeit, we can’t protect our kids from it. We end up raising children who are spiritually adrift because we traded the Rock of Ages for a handful of crystals and 'positive energy. I’ve brought a guest who will help Dads spot the counterfeits, protect their family and connect to the ultimate source of power and success.

Jerold Limongelli didn't just study the New Age; he lived it. He climbed that ladder until he realized it was leaning against a hollow wall. Now, he’s dedicated his life to helping fathers dismantle the deception and lead their families back to the only Truth that actually holds weight: Jesus Christ.

This episode is part 1. Part 2 continues in the next episode.

Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/

Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge

00:00:05.56

Jonathan Guerrero

If I told you that there was a spiritual movement trying to take over your home, you'd probably look for a guy in a robe or a cult leader on the news. But the most dangerous deception, the most dangerous deceptions don't arrive with a warning label.

00:00:20.25

Jonathan Guerrero

They arrive as self-help, wellness, and mindfulness. In 2026, New Age philosophy has been replaced for the modern dad. it's in It's in the manifesting techniques of your favorite business inlur and influencer.

00:00:36.42

Jonathan Guerrero

It's in the follow your heart messaging in your kids cartoons. It tells you that you are the center of the universe, that your truth is the only truth, and that you can vibrate your way into a better life.

00:00:49.98

Jonathan Guerrero

It sounds empowering. It feels like good vibes. but it's a spiritual Trojan horse. When the self is in your own when self is your only God, you have no anchor when the storm hits. And as dads, if we don't know how to spot the counterfeit, we can't protect our kids from it.

00:01:09.59

Jonathan Guerrero

We end up raising children who are spiritually adrift because we traded the Rock of Ages for a handful of crystals and positive energy. I brought a guest who will help dads spot the counterfeits, protect their family, and connect to the ultimate source of power and success. And he will join us in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.

00:02:12.28

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my co-host and son, Isaac. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Poderic Challenge. Yes, Isaac is back.

00:02:21.09

Joyful Jerold

you

00:02:21.82

Jonathan Guerrero

This episode is called The Counterfeit Covenant. Today, we are joined by Gerald Limongeli. Gerald didn't just study the New Age. He lived it. He climbed that ladder until he realized it was leaning against the hollow wall.

00:02:36.95

Jonathan Guerrero

Now he's dedicated his life to helping fathers dismantle the deception and lead their families back to the only truth that actually holds weight, Jesus Christ.

00:02:47.94

Jonathan Guerrero

Gerald, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

00:02:50.97

Joyful Jerold

Hey, thanks so much for having me. What an honor and a blessing to be here. I'm super grateful.

00:02:56.09

Jonathan Guerrero

Gerald, I know you have a powerful testimony to share, so I'm going to give you some space for you to share that now.

00:03:02.71

Joyful Jerold

Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. Yeah. So, you know, I, I didn't really grow up in a household where we had, um, any sort of faith background or any sort of, sorry, can you hear me still?

00:03:10.44

Jonathan Guerrero

Sorry. Sorry, that was you.

00:03:18.94

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, I can hear you. You're doing fine.

00:03:20.41

Joyful Jerold

Okay, sorry. Yeah, so I grew up in a household where we didn't really have any background in faith or religion. i mean, we're we're Italian, so there was Catholicism, but it was really more about just going through the motions of, you know, you're baptized as a little kid, you get your confirmation, your communion, and then you move on. So I never really understood the Bible or nor did I ever really even read it. And as I grew up, um I was very attracted to the entertainment industry and that false sense of fame or what I would call just being included in something or acknowledgement. Since I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of rejection.

00:04:01.50

Joyful Jerold

Um, I did spend, and when I came out of college, I jumped into the entertainment industry and I spent 10 years there working in New York, l LA to Las Vegas. I started as a club promoter. Then I moved my way up, um, all the way to a creative director and a celebrity wrangler, which really means I catered to all the celebrities and kind of entertain them and did whatever they needed to. But from the outside, my life looked very glamorous, um, very desired,

00:04:28.70

Joyful Jerold

And i lived in some of the biggest cities and hung out with the most famous people. So from the outside, people would say I was winning. But throughout that 10-year period, you know the wound of not enough or ah the self-hate or not really loving myself really existed deep on the inside. And that God-sized hole was just getting bigger and bigger.

00:04:48.66

Joyful Jerold

During that time, I did start to dabble in light things of the new age, which I would call, which is your basic, you know, meditation, going to see a palm reader, little bit of tarot cards and maybe some crystals. And I would say that that's really like the introduction to danger. And it really is like what I call the rookie level. So people who are like doing those things, they they think it's very, um,

00:05:14.68

Joyful Jerold

that there's not a lot of like depth to it or like, what's the danger, you know, just get your cards read or just get your palm. Like it's like an innocent thing, but it really is the beginning of opening up demonic doors and and creating covenants and false altars with these deities and gods and principalities of darkness that you don't know that you're giving legal territory and legal ground into your life.

00:05:36.98

Joyful Jerold

um And that started there. And then I moved into the um ad tech industry when I decided that at a certain age, it was getting a little bit tiresome to be in the in the entertainment space, being out every night.

00:05:45.06

Jonathan Guerrero

from the Brownsroom.

00:05:48.86

Jonathan Guerrero

um mean comment

00:05:50.46

Joyful Jerold

Also, you know, when I look back at that too, a lot of covenants were created inside those nightclubs, all nightclubs. and and party places are very close to what a satanic temple would be. There's rituals, there's music, there's drinking of spirits, there's idolatry, there's sexual immorality. It's really a place that if you're a believer and you're listening to this, you should not be going there, should not be dabbling in any of this because those are door openers as well. And I spent 10 years there.

00:06:18.33

Joyful Jerold

So once I got into the ad tech industry, and That's where I would say the the altar of sexual um immorality really, really increased itself. I started making the most money I've ever made. And I would spend all my time traveling the world. And I was an international businessman. And I never really wanted a relationship. So women became very transactional to me. um I spent a lot of time in doing one night stands or just logically putting it in my mind that um what's the difference between going on a date and spending money with someone um and versus just kind of paying your way into having sexual relations. So the doors were opened up in sexual idolatry and and um a lot of ah mischievous behavior, which will also eat away at your integrity as a man, your honor, um and it also tears down your self-image because it's really out of God's design.

00:07:20.57

Joyful Jerold

Now, in that time of having a lot of money and wealth, I met a lot of ah people that were exploring New Age, and it started to open up my mind.

00:07:31.77

Joyful Jerold

so As I spent about four years in that industry, I decided at some point that I really wanted to go deeper on my exploration. Now I took time off, um, earlier in around 2000, I would say 19 and I decided to hike the Appalachian trail now in, and building up to that, uh, hiking from Georgia to Maine. um I spent about a year up in the mountains in Mount Charleston, which is about 45 minutes outside of Las Vegas. I had no internet, no TV. I lived in a log cabin for an entire year. People would say like, that sounds crazy, but I needed some peace based on all the fast-paced lifestyle that I was living.

00:08:13.59

Joyful Jerold

In that time period, this is where the door got fully opened because I was introduced to kundalini yoga. Kundalini yoga, if you're not aware, is when you wear all white, you wear a turban,

00:08:25.43

Joyful Jerold

And you do a lot of ritualistic behaviors, Kriyas and mantras. They have you up very early in the morning. you have to eat a certain way, do a certain thing. They want you to change your name, which is an identity change away from how in the Bible, God gave the disciples or Jesus gave the disciples a name. These people want to give you a name. They want to create a false covenant with you. It's all telltale signs of an occultic behavior. um They also wrap your head in a turban. You start saying their Sanskrit language, things like satnam when you see people. And also they believe that there's a coiled up snake

00:09:00.89

Joyful Jerold

energy at the bottom of your chakra which is in your sexual organs and that it needs to climb up your spine until it pops out of your head spiritually and this is what they call a kundalini awakening now i did kundalini probably every day for 365 days i was super involved i got sucked into the culture because i really wanted to be a part of something and they were very loving and they were very inviting, just like it says, you know the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. So these people appear as good, as welcoming, right? They don't show up with a pitch pitchfork and horns to deter you away from getting stirred in the wrong direction. Now, as I got into Kundalini Yoga, someone else reached out to me who was a shaman.

00:09:46.68

Joyful Jerold

He invited me to go do ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is an indigenous plant that comes out of the Peruvian culture in the Amazon jungle. It is one of the strongest psychedelics that you could do. And they say that if I was to do this, I would be able to jump into a different realm and that the plant medicine would heal me and also show me aspects of my life to help me ascend to a higher level.

00:10:12.79

Joyful Jerold

I went on this ayahuasca journey that opened up my eyes to wanting to do more things. I then dabbled into combo, um, which is a frog venom you burn into your body.

00:10:19.16

Jonathan Guerrero

And

00:10:24.40

Joyful Jerold

Um, I did, uh, what Shuma, which is the cactus plant, um, peyote, um, all kinds of really intensified psychedelics, which are massive door openers to the demonic portals.

00:10:37.19

Joyful Jerold

Now in this time period, I did see the supernatural. Um, which when I look back at it's really interesting to see how God will plant you in certain areas, but he'll also protect you when his hand is on your life. Now, by the grace of God, i never had any you know close calls where my life was at threat, but I did enter illegally into the supernatural and I did create false covenants with false idols and demonic entities.

00:11:04.50

Joyful Jerold

Now, during that time of exploration, I decided to go on what I would call Eat, Pray, Love for Dudes, my man tears journey. I decided to take off, go to Bali for two months. I went to Bali. I got certified as a yoga teacher.

00:11:18.20

Joyful Jerold

I met witches, warlocks, gurus, shamans, astrologers, everyone to try to help me understand the inevitable quest of how do you love yourself? um From there, i went to India. I spent a month in New Delhi. I also did Vipassana meditation, whereas you meditate 100 hours, 10 hours a day. You can't make eye contact. You live in like a jail cell by yourself. You have to stare at the ground. You can't speak or talk. for a hundred hours.

00:11:47.74

Joyful Jerold

Absolutely crazy when you think about the level of torture you have to go to to experience what God will give you just by shouting out his name and coming into an agreement with the truth. But I was on a journey, journey of self-enlightenment, journey of finding myself, journey of trying to understand the great mysteries of the universe. I also went to Varanasi, which is probably the most demonic place you could go to on planet Earth. It's along the Ganges River. It's the oldest city in the world. And that is where all the sadhus, the holy men, and the aghori, which are yogis that dress in all black, um they do very, very weird rituals, um drink their own urine, eat the dead bodies of the people that are being burnt um along the Ganges River when they do the... um

00:12:33.74

Joyful Jerold

post-death sacrifices where they burn the bodies for Shiva. These people would go steal the bodies, eat them. um I met with these people, the Aghori, to try to understand the deeper mysteries of the universe.

00:12:46.84

Joyful Jerold

um And then from there, I went actually to the Amazon jungle, spent about a month living in there, studied with Shapibo shamans, did a lot of ayahuasca um until the point of like just a breaking point of just too much. um At that point, I went home. um I was living in New York for a little bit.

00:13:06.55

Joyful Jerold

um From there, it brought me back to California. i was living in Topanga, California. Again, just always seeming to land on my feet or have these opportunities that people would really just want. I found like a very beautiful home in Topanga, which is a very hard place to live. It's in between Santa Monica and Malibu up in the mountains. my I lived on a mountaintop. My only neighbor was the singer Seal who was married to Heidi Klum. we became friends. um Again, living this life like, wow, you're so blessed, Gerald.

00:13:37.14

Joyful Jerold

um From there, i met a girl ah who was living up in Lake Arrowhead. We started dating. She was a light worker. And she basically was into witchcraft. um She did a lot of full moon rituals, a lot of ceremonies and the lifestyle I was living in the lifestyle she was living. We thought, what a divine connection and interception to you know align us with the universe and all the things that life had for us.

00:14:01.43

Joyful Jerold

That relationship brought me to Austin, Texas. After about a year, ah maybe almost a year and a half of dating her. The relationship didn't work out. It was extremely toxic because you're just living in a demonic realm when you're both of you are practicing all of these new age rituals and behaviors with trauma and all unhealed aspects of your life. It is just a breeding ground for chaos. And that's what I was living in absolute chaos in my home.

00:14:29.28

Joyful Jerold

Outside external validation, I'm a 10 out 10, buying Maseratis, running my coaching business, making well over multiple six figures a month. um Everything looks great.

00:14:41.88

Joyful Jerold

Internally, I'm being destroyed. Spiritually dead. um From there, when we broke up, I decided to move outside of Austin to a small town called Dripping Springs.

00:14:52.54

Joyful Jerold

Um, everything was going well again, like, you know, finding my own place. Everyone's saying, oh, you're doing so great after the breakup, but inside hurting, uh, confused, not knowing who I am, no identity, right? Searching, searching, searching.

00:15:07.99

Joyful Jerold

One day I decided to go on a hike. um There's a hiking trail behind my house in the woods going on ah on a hike. I'm out walking in the woods. I'm listening to motivational speaking, Tony Robbins, you know all of the ah the gurus of the new age trying to pump myself up for the day where I'm going to manifest whatever I want and I'm the ruler of my own world.

00:15:27.06

Joyful Jerold

um God had a different plan. So I was listening to it on YouTube. All of a sudden the YouTube channel changes. And I don't understand the line, like the, the verbiage that I'm listening to is like, sounds like old English or like a Beowulf tonality. I open up my phone. I look, it says Jesus Christ sermon on the Mount. It's like a compilation. So I was like, Oh, Jesus is cool. He's one of the ascended masters. He's a sage. Um, I'll check it out.

00:15:53.50

Joyful Jerold

And I'm listening as I'm walking, but I'm not really paying attention. And all of a sudden I hear a verse that says, um be leery of false prophets for the show up in sheep's clothing, but underneath their ravenous wolves for, you know, a good tree by the fruit of bears for an evil tree can only bear thorns and thistles.

00:16:12.06

Joyful Jerold

It stops me in my track. And I don't know what the Holy Ghost is. So I'm going to say this from a place of now for the listeners to understand, but I i hear or feel the presence of the Holy Ghost.

00:16:27.10

Joyful Jerold

And it speaks to me and says, you know, you spent all this time searching the world and you've and you've met everyone and searched everyone, but why not Jesus?

00:16:39.26

Joyful Jerold

And it posed a very interesting question. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, that's interesting. Why why not? At that time, the Holy Ghost illuminates a path in the woods and says, go this way. And I go this way and I follow this trail and I come out and I'm standing at like a small river in the middle of a field.

00:16:55.93

Joyful Jerold

Now at that time, I hear the voice of God, not audible, but in my spirit. And the voice of God says to me, everything that you're looking for is with me. Come walk with me.

00:17:09.02

Joyful Jerold

And Just for context, I've never read the Bible. I've never opened the Bible. I've never even felt the paper. And out of my mouth, I say, by divine revelation, I say, I believe in Jesus Christ, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the one and only truth in the way, which is revelation.

00:17:27.51

Joyful Jerold

And then I drop to my knees, like just can't stand anymore, drop to my knees, which again is prophetic because in the word of God, it says all men will bow before me, whether you do it now or at the time of your death.

00:17:39.35

Joyful Jerold

And i begin to weep and cry and I call out to my Father in Heaven and I say, Lord, remove these demons from my body that have held me captive. Again, why would i refer to what's inside me as demons? Because the Holy Ghost is giving me spiritual revelation. And I could feel the presence of the demonic presence being pulled from my body.

00:18:02.23

Joyful Jerold

Now, in that moment, I say to myself, only one or two things could be happening. One, I've done way too many psychedelics and they're going straight jacket me after this. Or two, I am having a physical manifestation of the one true living God and his name is Jesus.

00:18:16.98

Joyful Jerold

Now, in that moment, the hand of God touched me. And in that moment, I was instantaneously a believer. There was no other thing that could ever deter my mind from knowing that Jesus is Lord because the hand of God physically touched me.

00:18:31.45

Joyful Jerold

I stood up. And I wiped off my tears and I began to walk home. And as I got home, my journey with Christ was like out of a cannon because he started working with me immediately.

00:18:45.27

Joyful Jerold

There was no period of that. went Well, I wonder what happened. Let me go to church. Let me talk to a pastor. No, it was immediately. I'm revealing myself to you in all my glory. As I opened up my door to my apartment, almost 20 plus years of treasures that I accumulated on my journey, right? Of all this world travel and mystics and holy, the Lord, the Holy Ghost started highlighting every single thing to me, telling me this is demonic. This is a false altar. This is witchcraft. This is Santa Maria. This is a hex. This is a curse. And I just started tearing everything down, literally tearing down altars. Another prophetic moment.

00:19:23.32

Joyful Jerold

Seven garbage bags later, I'm sitting in my apartment. It looks like a barren wasteland. I'm absolutely dumbfounded. What is going on? I have this conviction that everything that I was doing was absolutely false, but I have no idea where I'm going. And the only thing that's anchoring me is that there is a God and his name is Jesus.

00:19:42.58

Joyful Jerold

And from that moment, My whole life radically changed. The next day I got up, I had a coaching program. I had men in that coaching program. When I opened up to Coach Deb and I looked at the course materials, I immediately got conviction from the Holy Ghost saying, you can't teach us. This is all false.

00:20:00.30

Joyful Jerold

You're leading God's people astray. I shut my coaching business down. All the money I was making, gone. Every resource that I had given, that was given to me from the demonic, taken away.

00:20:11.83

Joyful Jerold

The Lord had to refine me. He had to break me down and rebuild me up in his image, not in the image of the world. And that sanctification period took a long time.

00:20:23.00

Joyful Jerold

I would say almost three plus years. In that time period, the Lord had sent me home from Austin, Texas to New York. I had to sell everything I ever earned. I was selling surfboards, snowboards, Ironman bikes, clothes, anything to make it by because my income was gone.

00:20:41.94

Joyful Jerold

I went from being almost a seven-figure earner to I don't even know if I have enough money for gas. my identity was being wiped and a new identity was being built and that period of time ah it was not easy i don't anyone listening that's saying you get saved and then your life is just peaches it's not true um it's the best thing ever happening but there is a period of sanctification um When the Lord told me to go home to New York, that was a hard decision because home for me was not a place of comfort.

00:21:15.54

Joyful Jerold

My mom was a drinker for 30 plus years. My family comes from a long family of divorces um and home was scary. But I obeyed what God asked me to do. And I drove my car from Austin, Texas, all the way home to New York, not knowing what was going to happen.

00:21:32.63

Joyful Jerold

And in that time period, that year of being home, it was probably one of the greatest years of my life. um I prayed for my mother every night in my room. i i learned how to intervene in the supernatural. So I came against the spirit of alcoholism.

00:21:44.78

Joyful Jerold

i i tore down demonic altars. And one day my mom came downstairs after about 30 something years of drinking and said, I don't know why, but I can never drink again.

00:21:50.98

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you.

00:21:53.24

Joyful Jerold

Praise God. And my mom hasn't drank for four plus years. So the Lord gave my mom a life, a life to live. My sister was living at home at the time. She was not saved.

00:22:06.17

Joyful Jerold

And I would speak about Jesus all the time and it would irritate her. A year later, my sister came up to me and said, listen, I don't know about this Jesus guy, but you're not the same person.

00:22:16.57

Joyful Jerold

And if he could change you, i want him to change me. My sister gave her life to Christ, got baptized, and I was there to witness it. Praise God. At that time, i met someone randomly at a park when I was worshiping God, and they prophesied to me and told me to go to a specific church.

00:22:34.42

Joyful Jerold

I went to that church, and within a couple of months, I met a woman there. The Lord gave me a word for her. I gave her a word, and three months later, she became my wife.

00:22:45.91

Joyful Jerold

All the striving, All the searching that the new age sent me on never fulfilled anything. But in a short period of time of being in a covenant with God, he gave me the desires of my heart.

00:23:03.96

Joyful Jerold

He gave me a wife who fears the Lord. He brought my mom from death to glory. He saved my sister. And on top of all that, my father, who I never spoke to for almost 18 years, who I had in a strange relationship with, on my own birthday, the Lord convicted me to call him.

00:23:24.50

Joyful Jerold

I obeyed and called him. He came out to see me. I sat down on a bench to talk to him in a park. And despite all of the trainings that I paid for, the hundreds of thousands of dollars for Tony Robbins, emotional intelligence, inner trauma healing, ancestral healing, all the ridiculous goose chases of the new age and and the the new age philosophy, the Lord told me, tell him your testimony.

00:23:55.22

Joyful Jerold

I told my dad my testimony. That was the first time I ever seen my dad cry. My dad said, can I tell your mind? And I had no idea that my dad on his deathbed was saved by Christ.

00:24:09.62

Joyful Jerold

And then my dad looked at me and said, after all these years, I'm sure you got a lot of questions from me. And my answer was, I have none. All I know is that the Lord commanded me to honor my mother and father. And all I want to do is obey God and have a relationship with you.

00:24:23.99

Joyful Jerold

The Lord mended my relationship with my dad. Now, are we throwing a baseball every day? No, but I have a relationship. He took 40 years of trauma and washed it.

00:24:38.30

Joyful Jerold

That's the power of God. That's the living, breathing testimony of what God can do and what the world can never do. And there is so much more that God has done in my life.

00:24:51.32

Joyful Jerold

from this day forward, putting me in the right places, putting me around the right men of God, giving me men who fear the Lord, helping repair me and bringing me to where I'm at right now, which is the kingdom minded man, which God had given me a prophetic vision to serve the men,

00:25:08.95

Joyful Jerold

of the kingdom of God to help them step into bold leadership, to righteousness, to come back to God and to take the men trapped in the new age and rescue them and pour them into the kingdom of, of God. So they could become wrecking balls for the kingdom and the glory that is coming.

00:25:26.62

Joyful Jerold

Hallelujah.

00:25:30.50

Jonathan Guerrero

What an absolute powerful, powerful, powerful testimony. It is what the Holy Spirit is able to do is limitless.

00:25:41.21

Jonathan Guerrero

And you are living proof of that. i I am absolutely amazed by what God has done in your life. And yeah, do got say, and do got to say another thing from my side of what I heard there.

00:25:50.46

Joyful Jerold

Amen. amen

00:25:55.29

Jonathan Guerrero

When you're talking about all like those demonic rituals that you're following, Oh my goodness. I was just sitting there with a disgusted face. I just had a disgusted look as I was just kind of staring off in the distance. and i was I was a mad boy when I was listening to that.

00:26:11.22

Jonathan Guerrero

But then when you started to tell about your testimony, you started turning back to Jesus. All a sudden, and when you said that when you came into your apartment and just started tearing down of those things that you had in there, like all of those demonic things that you had in there,

00:26:26.74

Jonathan Guerrero

When you started tearing those down, you should have saw me and my dad. We were cheering like it was a football game.

00:26:31.52

Joyful Jerold

Amen.

00:26:31.61

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, we were.

00:26:32.28

Joyful Jerold

Praise God.

00:26:33.40

Jonathan Guerrero

And in some ways, too, while you're telling your testimony, I was reliving my own experience. You mentioned some of your gateways into the supernatural.

00:26:44.76

Jonathan Guerrero

For me, it it was dowsing, and that's what that was my gateway. um it's Which is, if people aren't familiar with that, It is an entry level ah practice into the Ouija board.

00:27:01.21

Jonathan Guerrero

So it's basically the same kind of idea where you can interact directly and communicate with the spirit world.

00:27:01.60

Joyful Jerold

Wow.

00:27:09.62

Jonathan Guerrero

And then from there, all kinds of things open up. And there's stuff that I won't get into. It'll give you nightmares. But There are so many instances where the Holy Spirit was actively disrupting some of the things that I was doing because of the prayers of my wife.

00:27:30.97

Jonathan Guerrero

So, and that that's all another story for another time. But I was reliving that as you were explaining your testimony. So a lot of this stuff or how the Holy Spirit interrupts, how how he restores is so familiar in your testimony. And um'm the as and I'm literally...

00:27:52.10

Jonathan Guerrero

I'm literally just kind of nodding as you're like, yep, yep, that's what, yep, the Holy Spirit would do that. Like all of this is just characteristic of who God is and how he works. Like none of this, none of what you said surprises me.

00:28:08.50

Jonathan Guerrero

And yet I'm feeling joy inside as you're saying this because all i all I can see is just how much God loves and bleeds for you.

00:28:21.56

Jonathan Guerrero

and dads listening out there who are who may be trapped.

00:28:22.15

Joyful Jerold

Amen.

00:28:25.94

Jonathan Guerrero

So we're going to go ahead and wrap up this as so this testimony. And so this will be part one, and we'll be concluding this episode. And we will continue with this episode in part two.

00:28:41.70

Jonathan Guerrero

We're going to continue in the next episode, part two.

00:28:46.62

Joyful Jerold

Amen.

Jermaine Wilson didn't just 'do time.' He allowed his time in state prison to be the forge that reshaped his entire identity. While he was separated from his children by cold steel, he refused to let his fatherhood go cold. Through programs like Prison Fellowship’s Angel Tree, he learned that you can be a 'present father' even when you aren't physically in the room.

Jermaine didn't just return to society; he rose to lead it—eventually becoming the Mayor of Leavenworth, Kansas. He has moved on from being a mayor to working for Prison Fellowship as a Mission Ambassador. He’s helping other men realize that a 'Second Chance' isn't a gift you wait for; it’s a mission you build.

To connect learn more about Prison Fellowship's Angel Tree program or to get involved, visit: https://www.prisonfellowship.org/about/angel-tree/

To find other resources on The Fatherhood Challenge, visit: https://linktr.ee/thefatherhoodchallenge

Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/

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00:12.91

Jonathan Guerrero

There's a specific kind of silence that follows a father's failure. It's the sound of a door closing, a phone not ringing, or a seat at the dinner table staying empty.

00:24.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Most men believe that if they fall far enough, if they break the law, break their sobriety, or break their family's trust, that the leadership chapter of their life is over.

00:36.09

Jonathan Guerrero

They let shame build a wall thicker than any prison stone, and they convince themselves that their kids are better off without them. But today's guest is living proof that your history is not your heartbeat.

00:50.97

Jonathan Guerrero

Jermaine Wilson didn't just do the times. He allowed his time in federal prison to be the forge that reshaped his entire identity. While he was separated from his children by cold steel, he refused to let his fatherhood go grow cold.

01:07.32

Jonathan Guerrero

Through programs like Prison Fellowship, Angel Tree, he learned that you can be a present father even when you aren't physically in the room. Jermaine didn't just return to society. He rose to lead it, eventually becoming the mayor of Leavenworth, Kansas.

01:22.84

Jonathan Guerrero

Today, as a justice ambassador, he's helping other men realize that a second chance isn't a gift you wait for. It's a mission you build. And I'm going to introduce you to Jermaine Wilson, and we'll hear his inspiring story in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.

02:21.52

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this episode called from cell to city hall. My co-host Isaac has taken a break, so it's just me this time, but I am so excited to introduce you to my guest, Jermaine Wilson.

02:35.16

Jonathan Guerrero

Jermaine, welcome to the fatherhood challenge.

02:38.13

Jermaine Wilson 

Hey, thank you for having me today. I'm blessed to be here.

02:41.93

Jonathan Guerrero

Jermaine, I know you have a powerful story to share, so I'm going to just step out of the way for a bit and let you share.

02:49.82

Jermaine Wilson 

Well, thank you, first off, just for allowing me to be here. Just want to start off giving glory to my Lord Savior Jesus Christ for this opportunity. to Growing up, I was exposed to drug crimes and violence at a very early age. I was blessed to be raised by both of my parents, but neither one of my parents completed high school. They both dropped out in the ninth grade.

03:15.10

Jermaine Wilson 

And my father struggled with drug addiction and incarceration throughout the early years of my life. So the struggle wasn't nothing new for me. I was exposed to the struggle and was born into the struggle with poverty, the the violence, to drugs, the addiction throughout my childhood. And growing up being the middle child out of nine children,

03:38.71

Jermaine Wilson 

I was always trying to find my place. I was always trying to search for an identity. I just wanted to be loved, valued, accepted, and appreciated. But that came with challenges. And I began to search for acceptance in the wrong place. And that led to a life of crime and drug addiction, which was at the age of 11 was the first time i started using drugs. And by the age of 12, I had committed my first crime.

04:08.15

Jonathan Guerrero

Wow, that is a powerful start.

04:13.68

Jonathan Guerrero

Jermaine, many fathers who crash, whether it's prison, addiction, or a failed business, feel a crushing weight of shame that makes them want to just hide from their kids.

04:24.89

Jonathan Guerrero

How did you silence the voice telling you that your children were better off without a criminal for a father?

04:31.74

Jermaine Wilson 

Well, after I continued that criminal lifestyle at the age of 15, I committed a robbery charge with census to four years in juvenile corrections. And once I got released, that's when God tried to get my attention by blessing me with the son. But I wasn't ready to be a father, didn't know how to be a father. And i was only out 18 months before I was convicted of possession of narcotics and census to three years in prison.

04:56.63

Jermaine Wilson 

But I wasn't the only one impacted by my incarceration. i had an eight-month-old son who was impacted by my incarceration. And while I'm in prison, at this moment, I feel inadequate. I feel lost, confused.

05:11.40

Jermaine Wilson 

wishing I had an opportunity to be there with my son. And so while in prison, I felt less of a father not knowing what to do. And i was just suffering in my cell due to the fact that I couldn't be there for my son. And while I was in my prison cell, I realized that it wasn't a matter of if I was gonna go to prison, it was a matter of when. And that cycle of crime and incarceration was just being perpetuated throughout of my family.

05:42.49

Jermaine Wilson 

And I realized that if I didn't change my life, my son would walk in the same footsteps that my father had laid before me, the footprints that was full of pain, shame, guilt, and incarceration.

05:56.54

Jermaine Wilson 

I didn't want that for my son, but I knew i had to be willing to face the reality of my situation. I left my son out in the world by himself.

06:10.55

Jermaine Wilson 

Now I'm inside of the cell. What am I going to do with the time that I have left? And at that moment, that's when I made the decision. I wasn't going to leave prison the same way that I came to prison. I'm going to change my life, but I need help.

06:26.36

Jermaine Wilson 

And when I cried out to God, that's when God sent for a prison fellowship in my life.

06:32.54

Jonathan Guerrero

So in a sense, it seems like you saw this opportunity as just that, an opportunity, a fresh start to make your future what you wanted it to be. And then furthermore, you saw that there was a potential for a generational cycle. You caught it right away and you were determined to break that cycle and change that that generational legacy going forward.

06:58.01

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes, sir, that is correct. I realize we have the power to change. See, our change can break the chains of generational crimes and incarceration in our family.

07:10.65

Jermaine Wilson 

It may have started with someone else, but it can stop with us because the moment that I changed my life, not only did it change the trajectory of my life, but it also changed the next generation, my son's life and his children, children, because the things that I was exposed to, I learned from those things and experienced them and was able to conquer them through Christ Jesus. And now I'm exposing my son to a new life, a life that's full of hope, potential and growth.

07:38.84

Jermaine Wilson 

Prison didn't break me. God used prison to build me to be the father that I needed to be for my son.

07:46.58

Jonathan Guerrero

That time that you were in prison, you didn't feel alone, did you? do you you could Could you feel God's presence with you that entire time?

07:56.28

Jermaine Wilson 

yeah Christ met me in my cell. And when Christ met me in my cell, his presence, the Holy Spirit, it was with me. Like throughout my life, I felt inadequate, incomplete, lonely, was searching for acceptance. But the moment that I surrendered my life, and gave my life to Jesus through the Prison Fellowship Program, that's when Christ met me in my cell. It fulfilled me. It completed me. Although I was physically in bondage, spiritually, i was free. And it was the free it was the most free I've ever experienced in my life. And the Bible tells us, for whom the Son says free is free indeed. And so all of those inadequacies, those those ah voids that I once had,

08:41.17

Jermaine Wilson 

Christ literally started to begin to fulfill those void inside of my life. One prayer, one step, one day at a time. And when I went to prison, I felt like I was a deadbeat father. But the moment that I gave my life to Christ, that's when Christ restored everything that I had lost. And he gave me purpose and fulfillment as a father.

09:05.50

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, so I know there's probably something deeper to that moment when you said Jesus met you. a lot of people think that an experience with God or Jesus is somewhat of a merit metaphorical or like an airy experience, but they don't think of it as a real tangible experience.

09:18.31

Jermaine Wilson 

Mm-hmm.

09:24.86

Jonathan Guerrero

Talk about that moment, the actual moment when you encountered Jesus for the first time in your cell, when you understood His presence was real and was with you and he was meeting you right where you were and he was wanting to change you and to restore you. Talk about that exact moment when that happened.

09:45.86

Jermaine Wilson 

I'll never forget. It was September, March 2008. I'm currently in the Prison Fellowship Academy program. I'm learning how to be a a better person, a good citizen, learning core values of good citizenship. Well, three months had went by and there was silence.

10:04.38

Jermaine Wilson 

I have not heard from my son, my son's mother. I didn't know what was going on during this time period. And this was the loneliest I've have ever felt in my life.

10:15.10

Jermaine Wilson 

And I'll never forget the day no one was in my prison cell. And I was just overwhelmed with emotions because I'm hurting and I'm feeling lost.

10:26.78

Jermaine Wilson 

and um And I cried out. I said, God, if you are real,

10:30.13

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank you.

10:31.13

Jermaine Wilson 

Please come come in my life. I don't want to know you like the way anyone else knows you. I need a personal encounter. And while I'm myself, I'm crying out to Jesus at this moment and I'm asking Lord to forgive me of my sins and everything that I've done. Please help me to be able to get my son back. I want my family, but change me, Lord, from the inside out. And when I i cried and said the Lord's prayer and asked for forgiveness, it was like chills coming over my body.

11:04.56

Jermaine Wilson 

And as tears poured down my face, those tears of pain just began to become tears of praise because I started thanking God just for the transformation in the encounter.

11:05.94

Jonathan Guerrero

Wow.

11:15.36

Jermaine Wilson 

But it was real because it it the change was starting from inside out, from my heart to my mind. And I just literally began to become complete and whole in that that frustration, the unforgiveness, all of those things that was once inside of me began to just dwindle away.

11:33.19

Jermaine Wilson 

And so it's almost like listening to your favorite song. And, you know, like when you cut on that favorite song and it just puts you in the peace of mind, you just relax.

11:42.36

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah.

11:43.64

Jermaine Wilson 

Well, this was that times 10. It was the best experience I ever had in my life.

11:47.59

Jonathan Guerrero

Wow.

11:50.26

Jonathan Guerrero

Wow. That is amazing. So this was very, very real. This wasn't some metaphorical thing. There was a tangible experience and and a tangible encounter that you had with Jesus in your cell.

12:07.70

Jonathan Guerrero

Absolutely powerful.

12:08.06

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes, sir.

12:09.27

Jonathan Guerrero

Absolutely powerful.

12:09.40

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes, sir.

12:11.48

Jonathan Guerrero

You went through the in-prison program that equipped you for real skills. At what special moment did you stop identifying yourself as inmate number XXXX and start identifying as a leader again?

12:27.03

Jermaine Wilson 

The moment that I began, the moment I surrendered and gave my life to the Lord, that's when I really begin to see things differently, like my mindset changed, my perspective changed. And that's when I was really able to not just learn the core values of good citizenship, I was able to apply them. And once I began to apply them, that's when the transformation really started to happen. That's when I realized like prison wasn't a place that was going to hurt me. God was using prison to help me. And the time that I had, it wasn't wasted time because anytime that you invest with God, God redeems the time. And so I wasn't just serving time. Time began to serve me. And i began to use my prison cell as a classroom, a place of education, learning, learning how to communicate, developing my skills, breathing my word, understanding.

13:24.02

Jermaine Wilson 

I was literally using this as preparation time for what God had in store for me because I knew that my life wasn't over. And I knew the moment that I gave my life to the Lord, I was experiencing my second chance in restoration and with life.

13:40.73

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, so there are many programs that are out there for inmates and all of them are, I shouldn't say all of them, but a lot of those programs are not geared towards God or geared towards teaching about Jesus or anything like that. theyre They are secular programs, very, very much so, and and intentionally secular.

14:05.94

Jonathan Guerrero

So for inmates that go through those programs, versus inmates that learn about Jesus and involve Jesus in their life and in their restoration.

14:17.88

Jonathan Guerrero

What is the difference?

14:20.54

Jermaine Wilson 

But the difference is you have the secular programs that could change the way that you think, change the way that you view things, But when it comes with Prison Fellowship Academy, they teach you life skills from a biblical worldview.

14:37.82

Jermaine Wilson 

And so not only are you learning how to think, you're learning how to treat others. You're learning how to forgive yourself. You're learning how to communicate. You're learning how to live amongst individuals in your communities. You learn how to agree to disagree when it comes to being.

14:56.95

Jermaine Wilson 

fully understanding what a person believe or how they believe, but you find that common ground where you're able to build on that unity rather than focusing on division. and But overall, the thing that I love most about Prison Fellowship Academy They open the program to anyone. They're receptive to bringing anyone faith of no faith, and they want to expose you to Christ principles. And once you've been exposed to Christ principles, transformation takes place.

15:28.66

Jermaine Wilson 

And there's so many individuals I've witnessed come in the program that were nonbelievers, walked out as believers. And the the the belief isn't forced upon you. It's just presented to you. But those that receive what's being presented, the moment that they apply it, they see the transformation takes place. And so is it real? Yes, it's real based upon what I experienced and encountered throughout my own life.

15:53.94

Jermaine Wilson 

I encountered Jesus Christ through the Prison Fellowship Academy program. And so it worked for me. And I seen it work for so many other individuals.

16:03.06

Jonathan Guerrero

I know that there are statistics out there about inmates who return back into the system again. it happens all the time over and over and over again. Is there a difference between other programs and programs like Prison Fellowship Angel Tree Program where the return rate is either really low or at zero for programs like Prison Fellowship's Angel Tree Program versus other programs that do not talk about God.

16:35.54

Jermaine Wilson 

Yeah, but the recidivism rate is low. I don't have the statistics, but I know if you were to look at Carol Vance, which is our Prison Fellowship Academy program that's located in Texas, they have some statistics. I'll be more than happy to send you that information, but it is lower compared to other organizations and that does in-prison program. And so the the the rate is in definitely lower. But the most important thing about the Prison Fellowship Academy

17:08.31

Jermaine Wilson 

It's they walk alongside you while you're in prison. They use Prison Fellowship Angel Tree to serve your children while you're in prison. And then they also like it all works hand in hand. Not only you being served as a parent, but your children and your family members are being served as well. That's the difference. It's holistic restoration. It's holistic programming. Not only are we trying to impact the individual, but we're also trying to impact the their children, as well as the prison facility, because we also have our ward and exchange program. And then we also have our advocacy department that's advocating for individuals who are justice impacted.

17:50.40

Jermaine Wilson 

And so it's a holistic ministry that is serving individuals because we truly want to help make a difference inside the prison and outside the prison together as a whole.

18:02.71

Jonathan Guerrero

Maintaining a relationship with your kids while incarcerated is incredibly difficult. What are the tactical things that you did to stay present in their lives when you couldn't physically be present in the home in their home?

18:17.26

Jermaine Wilson 

I journaled every single day and wrote letters to my son because I wanted my son to know his father was always thinking about him. and when I signed up for the Prison Fellowship Angel Tree Program, the church presented a gift to my son on my behalf with the handwritten note that says, Dad loves you, I miss you, and I'm always thinking about you. And once my son received that that gift,

18:44.30

Jermaine Wilson 

Although I couldn't physically be present, the presence of God showed up and he used that gift to create a connection between my son. My son loved that gift, played with that gift. But that was a reminder to my son that dad never forgot about him. And so as a parent that was once incarcerated, Prison Fellowship Angel Tree gave me an opportunity to be able to serve my son, which allowed the church to come around my family, serve my family, and welcome them into their community as well.

19:19.96

Jonathan Guerrero

For dads listening who don't know, how did that program specifically act as a bridge that kept your heart connected with your children during the holidays specifically?

19:32.85

Jermaine Wilson 

Prison Fellowship Angel Tree Program gave me hope to be an apparent behind bars. Prison might have locked up my body, but it never locked up my purpose as a father.

19:46.52

Jermaine Wilson 

As a father, We want to provide. We want to protect. We want to be present for our children. I was limited to what I could do for my son, but Prison Fellowship Angel Tree allowed me the opportunity to present a gift, to be present in the spiritual way. And that gift allowed me to be present in a tangible way.

20:07.96

Jermaine Wilson 

But it gave me hope as a father, knowing that I had an opportunity to still provide for my son.

20:17.98

Jonathan Guerrero

So around the holiday times, you weren't completely disconnected from your family. the The prison fellowship gave you a bridge to be able to stay connected with your family, even over those holiday times that can be extremely difficult.

20:35.29

Jonathan Guerrero

In a way, they weren't completely without you.

20:39.77

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes, it did. And like I said, three months prior to Christmas time, there was no communication between my son and I. But when that gift showed up that was presented on behalf of the um on behalf of me from the church,

20:55.90

Jermaine Wilson 

You know, my my son's mother received that gift and presented it to my son. So not only did it have an impact on my son, but it also had an impact on my son's mother, which is now my wife.

21:08.31

Jermaine Wilson 

And the beautiful impact that it had, it let her know that I was growing I was maturing and I was no longer a selfish individual because I decided to put my son before my own needs, my own personal needs. And so that touched her heart, ministered to her heart. But that gift created that bridge that created a connection between my son and I, as well as my son's mother, because not long after that, she surrendered and gave her life to the Lord as well.

21:42.33

Jonathan Guerrero

Oh, wow.

21:45.29

Jonathan Guerrero

Wow. How did that transpire? Was that due to your experience? was Was your experience the influence that caused her to give her life to Jesus?

21:55.22

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes, because she started visiting me after she received that gift um and started bringing my son up. And I began to pray with him. I began to read the Bible with him during our visitations. And so she not only witnessed the change happening from the inside out, but she felt it. And the Holy Spirit is tangible. What's inside of you will connect to those around you. And so as I just continue to you know not act out of out of out of anger, frustration. She's seen that I've literally started communicating different. I was no longer using profanity, but I was always responding with peace and love. like That had an impact on her. And she said, what's ever inside of you? I want it for myself as well, because she got tired of living in society, serving time without me.

22:47.10

Jermaine Wilson 

And she just surrendered and gave her life to the Lord, was tired of carrying that weight. But she's seeing how I was able to be free while in prison. And so she wanted that same freedom that I experienced as well.

23:00.41

Jonathan Guerrero

That's amazing. So the Holy Spirit literally was unit uniting your family, actually bringing your family together closer. Even during that time when you're physically separated by prison, the Holy Spirit was actively uniting your family.

23:19.32

Jonathan Guerrero

That is awesome. Absolutely amazing.

23:27.45

Jonathan Guerrero

So this next question is is very, very difficult, but it's important because there are many dads out there that are stuck in cycles of shame. who They've made decisions in their past or maybe currently are making decisions that are are really tough. ah Let's just say that they are not proud of.

23:51.67

Jonathan Guerrero

and And they're struggling with that and and they either have broken free or they're trying to break free.

23:58.66

Jermaine Wilson 

Mm-hmm.

23:58.71

Jonathan Guerrero

And at some point, if you have kids, there are some conversations that are going to come up.

23:58.80

Jermaine Wilson 

Great.

24:04.98

Jonathan Guerrero

How did you handle the conversation with your children about why you were gone? And how do you balance being honest about your mistakes without losing your authority as their fathers?

24:16.98

Jermaine Wilson 

Well, to the fathers that's listening today, truthfully, you can only conquer those things that you're willing to confront. It took me confronting my past, owning my past, learning from my past, but most of all, surrendering my past to Jesus.

24:33.66

Jermaine Wilson 

And once Christ forgiven me, once he forgave me, i had to learn to forgive myself as well. And so the moment that I began to forgive myself, I was able to not live a life of fear, shame or guilt.

24:50.17

Jermaine Wilson 

So whenever I encountered my son, I was very truthful with my son once I was released from prison and shared with him the mistakes that I made. And I also share with him the teaching moment from those mistakes, because everything that we experience throughout our life, it's a lesson to be learned. And once you've learned that lesson, you're able to share with other individuals. And teaching my son from my mistakes, it helps me to not live in my past. It helps me to not be afraid or shameful of anything that I've done, because I know Christ has given me a second chance and he's forgiven me.

25:28.79

Jermaine Wilson 

So I'm very open with sharing my story to my other children as well, because I want them to learn from my mistakes. I think the biggest mistake that parents make when they're not being transparent about their past, because there's nothing new under the sun. That's what the Bible tells us. So which means what you struggle with, your children are going to struggle with as well. So it's an opportunity for us to be able to teach them so they can learn from my experience so they don't have to make those same mistakes.

26:02.17

Jonathan Guerrero

When you ran for the mayor of Leavenworth, you were essentially asking the entire city for a second chance. Did your experience of reconciling with your family give you the confidence to reconcile with your community?

26:15.67

Jermaine Wilson 

Yes. And the beautiful part about that reconciliation and restoration process, God allowed me to be able to get my criminal record expunged. And once I was released from prison, I just didn't wait on the sidelines to start serving my community.

26:31.10

Jermaine Wilson 

I got actively involved. I reached out to the chief of police.

26:34.84

Jonathan Guerrero

Give me, hold on one second. Sorry to interrupt you. My system just powered off. Give me a second here.

26:55.35

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay. I apologize. Would you answer that question one last time I got it back up and running?

27:01.91

Jermaine Wilson 

Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes. And so once I was released from prison, I started to serve my community immediately. i got involved with working with the police department to establish trust between citizens and law enforcement, started doing different outreach events, started feeding a homeless in the community.

27:22.94

Jermaine Wilson 

The community that I grew up in, that I once took so much away from, I started to invest and give back to. And so the more that I was serving the community, I was getting forgiveness from the community along my journey.

27:36.73

Jermaine Wilson 

And so when the time came for me to run for public office and become the mayor, the community knew exactly who I was.

27:42.76

Jonathan Guerrero

Thank

27:44.64

Jermaine Wilson 

They were familiar with my past. And the thing that they loved the most about my journey I was always open and transparent about everything that I had done and what I had accomplished. And not only was I just sitting on my story, I was sharing my story with different kids. I became a mentor and a role model. But that just really touched the hearts of the voters and supporters in our community because they said we need someone who understands every side of life Because at this particular time, there was no one that represented everyone in our community. When individuals heard my story, they could relate to it because they were either impacted by the justice system or they had someone who's been impacted by the justice system. And they wanted someone that could have a voice and speak for all people and not just a small portion of our community.

28:43.54

Jonathan Guerrero

In your role with Prison Fellowship, you saw men at their absolute lowest. What is the one fatal lie you see incarcerated fathers believing most often, and how did you help them break it?

28:57.37

Jermaine Wilson 

There are so many individuals that are currently in prison that feels like prison is the ending place. When I go inside a prison and communicate to the men and women, I let them know prison is not an ending place. This is a place of new beginning.

29:16.15

Jermaine Wilson 

We all will experience rock bottom at a certain part of our life. And sometimes it takes a person being broken down and stripped away from everything they have in order for God to get their attention.

29:27.64

Jermaine Wilson 

Now that you've experienced rock bottom, there's only one other place to go, and that is up. And so once you realize that Christ is your rock bottom, he's there with you every season of life. Now you have the strength to be able to stand there.

29:44.09

Jermaine Wilson 

But you're not going to be standing by yourself because you have an advocate. You have someone that's standing with you. And that's our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so the message that I share with every individual that I encounter, Christ is real.

30:00.12

Jermaine Wilson 

I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it wasn't for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And then also, you never know who you are until you've encountered who you are not.

30:13.30

Jonathan Guerrero

As we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?

30:20.58

Jermaine Wilson 

Don't give up hope. Where you are is not who you are. God has created each and every last one of us on purpose for purpose.

30:34.42

Jermaine Wilson 

We've all fallen short. We've all made mistakes, but your mistakes does not define who you are. God has called you to be a father and God will be with you and equip you with everything that you need to be able to serve your family.

30:52.12

Jermaine Wilson 

During this time that you're in prison, don't waste the time. Use this as preparation time because time invested with God, God redeems that time. And one day you will soon be with your children and use Prison Fellowship Angel Tree as a bridge to connect you with your children.

31:10.36

Jermaine Wilson 

God bless.

31:12.79

Jonathan Guerrero

A huge, huge thank you to the mayor, to Mayor Jermaine Wilson for his vulnerability and his service as Justice Ambassador. If you want to support the mission of keeping incarcerated fathers connected to their kids, check out Prison Fellowship and the Angel Tree Program.

31:30.14

Jonathan Guerrero

If you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com, and you go to this episode and you're looking for the episode that's called From Cell to City Hall.

31:43.16

Jonathan Guerrero

from cell to city hall, go to that episode, look right below the episode description. I'm going to have the link posted to prison fellowship and the angel tree program posted right there for your convenience until next time, stay durable, stay humble.

31:58.55

Jonathan Guerrero

And remember that the greatest comeback of your life starts with the vit within the very next decision that you make. We will see you in the next episode.