Welcome to episode 19 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh passed away on January 22nd, 2022. As we grieve our dear teacher, we also want to celebrate his enduring legacy with the podcast’s first special edition.

Therefore, we are sharing an edited recording of Thich Nhat Hanh interviewed by Krista Tippett during a USA tour in 2003, at a lakeside Christian conference center in rural Wisconsin.  

The interview is reproduced with kind permission of Krista Tippett and her podcast and radio show On Being.

Peabody Award-winning broadcaster Krista Tippett is a National Humanities Medalist and a New York Times bestselling author. She attended Brown University, then worked as a journalist and diplomat in Cold War Berlin. Subsequently, she lived in Spain and England before receiving a Master of Divinity at Yale University in the mid 1990s.

The episode starts with an introduction by Brother Phap Huu – Thich Nhat Hanh’s former attendant, and the current Abbott of Upper Hamlet, Plum Village. The brother recites one of Thay’s best known poems and pays tribute to his beloved teacher.

In the interview, Thich Nhat Hanh offers gentle wisdom for living in a world of anger and violence, through concepts such as engaged Buddhism, ‘being peace’, and mindfulness.

He shares the story behind his classic book The Miracle of Mindfulness, and discusses the Vietnamese connotations of the word ‘mindfulness’; transforming suffering; and building a community of practice and teaching mindfulness to different groups – from members of the US Congress to Hollywood filmmakers and law enforcement officers.

One segment of the interview focuses on dealing with war and ‘enemies’; the repetitive patterns of war, with a focus on the Vietnam and Iraq wars and the ‘war on terror’ taking place at the time. He further delves into: the root causes of war, anger, forgiveness, and peacekeeping; collective awakening; and viewing the world through the eyes of compassion. 

What is compassion in the wake of a terrorist attack? Does the practice of mindfulness cause forgiveness to become instinctual? And what were Thay’s pressing questions in 2003?

Thay also recites poems in both English and Vietnamese and comments on their meanings and shifting contexts, such as the relevance of his 40-year-old poem ‘Illusion Transformed’ to the realities of 2003. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

‘Recommendation’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/recommendation/

‘Alone Again’
https://plumvillage.org/library/songs/alone-again-promise-me/

The Miracle of Mindfulness 
https://plumvillage.org/books/the-miracle-of-mindfulness/

‘Illusion Transformed’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq5HHRJ9pIk 

Drops of Emptiness
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/424577.Drops_of_Emptiness 

‘For Warmth’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/for-warmth-thays-poem-in-my-two-hands-betsy-roses-song/ 

Fragrant Palm Leaves 
https://plumvillage.org/books/fragrant-palm-leaves/

Thich Nhat Hanh address to the US Congress, September 10, 2003
https://plumvillage.org/it/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/thich-nhat-hanh-address-to-us-congress-september-10-2003/0/

‘Mindfulness, Suffering and Engaged Buddhism’ (interviews with Thich Nhat Hanh, Cheri Maples, and Larry Ward)
https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/interviews-with-thich-nhat-hanh/thich-nhat-hanh-on-mindfulness-suffering-and-engaged-buddhism/ 

The United Nations
https://www.un.org/en/ 

The Vietnam War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War 

Bến Tre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre 

Quotes

“Mindfulness is a part of living. When you are mindful, you are fully alive, you are fully present, you can get in touch with the wonders of life, which can nourish and heal you. And you are stronger, you are more solid, more able to handle the suffering inside and around you. When you are mindful, you can recognize, embrace, and handle the pain, the sorrow in and around you, to bring relief. And if you continue with concentration and insight, you’ll be able to transform the suffering inside and help transform the suffering around you.” 

“Suffering and happiness are both organic, like flowers and garbage. The flower is on her way to become a piece of garbage, and the garbage can be on its way to become a flower. That is why you are not afraid of the garbage, and you know how to handle it so that flowers can be created. And that is all. There’s no attempt to run away from suffering. And you handle suffering in such a way in order to create wellbeing and happiness.”

“Awakening, understanding, compassion, and reconciliation can take place after a few days of practice. People need an opportunity so that the seed of compassion, understanding in them can be watered. And that is why we are not discouraged. If more people join in the work of offering that opportunity, there will be a collective awakening and we shall have enough collective understanding and compassion to help us out of this difficult situation.”

“When you have compassion in your heart, you suffer much less. And you are in the situation to be and to do something to help others to suffer less.”

“Understanding brings compassion; understanding is compassion itself. When you understand the difficulties, the suffering, the despair of another, you don’t hate him or her anymore. And you are motivated by the desire to do something in order to help them transform the suffering inside.”

“You have to remain human in order to be able to understand and to be compassionate. And you have the right to be angry, but you don’t have the right not to practice in order to transform your anger. You have the right to make mistakes, but you don’t have the right to continue making a mistake: you have to learn from your mistakes.”

“Zen is not merely a system of thought. Zen infuses our whole being with the most pressing question we have.”

“I hold my face in my two hands.
No, I am not crying.
I hold my face in my two hands
to keep the loneliness warm—
two hands protecting,
two hands nourishing,
two hands preventing
my soul from leaving me
in anger.” 
– ‘For Warmth’ by Thich Nhat Hanh