America solidified its dominant posture in the international order following World War II and largely held that position for the following half-century. But as problems have accumulated at home and abroad, Americans are reconsidering their country’s role in the world, and so are its leaders. Alex Ward, author of The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, joins us. 


Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Alex Ward (@alexbward). His book is The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump.
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This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


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The new(ish) world order

The Gray Area with Sean Illing takes a philosophy-minded look at culture, technology, politics, and the world of ideas. Each week, we invite a guest to explore a question or topic that matters. From the the state of democracy, to the struggle with depression and anxiety, to the nature of identity in the digital age, each episode looks for nuance and honesty in the most important conversations of our time. New episodes drop every Monday.

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News Commentary

Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Kate Murphy, author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters
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This episode was made by: 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall


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How to listen

The internet has fractured our world into a million little subcultures catering to the specific identities and habits of everyone online. Writer Derek Thompson believes this has led to a widespread cult-like mentality that has crept into all facets of modern life — pop culture, media, politics, and religion itself. He joins Sean to explain this theory, and why it’s maybe not such a bad thing.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Derek Thompson (@dkthomp). His podcast is Plain English, and he writes for The Atlantic.
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This episode was made by: 

Producer: Jon Ehrens 
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Everything's a cult now

Is it possible that we are living through one of the most revolutionary periods in human history? CNN’s Fareed Zakaria believes that we are and argues that the convergence of AI and the global backlash against liberal democracy are upending political orders around the world. He joins Sean to talk about how this period relates to history’s most impactful revolutions, both political and technological. 
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Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Fareed Zakaria (@fareedzakaria). His new book is Age of Revolutions.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


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Fareed Zakaria on our revolutionary moment

Philosophy may seem like a theoretical or abstract discipline in which unanswerable questions are debated to the point of tedium. But MIT professor Kieran Setiya believes that philosophical inquiry has a very practical and applicable purpose outside of the classroom — to help guide us through life’s most challenging circumstances. He joins Sean to talk about self-help, FOMO, and midlife crises. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Kieran Setiya. His book is called Life is Hard.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


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Life is hard. Can philosophy help?

Jane Marie is an expert in American bullshit. Her podcast The Dream explores life coaching, wellness, marketing, and other fraudulent industries and exposes their exploitative practices. Her book, Selling the Dream, takes an even closer look at multilevel marketing schemes like Amway and Herbalife and gives historical context to this multibillion-dollar — and distinctly American — enterprise. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Jane Marie. Her podcast is The Dream and her book is Selling the Dream.
Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
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This episode was made by: 


Producer: Jon Ehrens 


Engineer: Patrick Boyd


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The new(ish) world order

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