For our Season 3 finale, Naga is in conversation with podcaster and content guru - Jay Acunzo to discuss, what differentiates great creators from all others, how to find your first 10-50 true fans? Is there a one size fits all approach to monetization?

 

Reach out to Jay Acunzo and Check out his content -

Member Group (Paid) - https://jayacunzo.com/membership 

Podcast - 3 Clips – https://jayacunzo.com/3-clips 

Podcast - Unthinkable – https://jayacunzo.com/unthinkable-podcast 

Twitter – https://twitter.com/jayacunzo

Website - https://jayacunzo.com/ 

Books: Break the Wheel: Question Best Practices, Hone Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

 

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Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jay Acunzo: [00:00:00] you hear the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.

[00:00:15]it's also very dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and influence  is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.

[00:00:31]most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually own like your own website and email list.

[00:00:43] Naga S: [00:00:43] Hey Jay. Hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast. And thank you for taking the time

[00:00:48] to be on the show.

[00:00:49]Jay Acunzo: [00:00:49] Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it,

[00:00:50]Naga S: [00:00:50] Jay, you have an extremely unique perspective, given your background in content marketing, the kind of shows that you've launched and the amazing work that you do at three clips.

[00:01:01]So as, as we start. I would love to just get like a 30,000 feet view of the content landscape from your lens and how it looked at the start of 2020 and how COVID has changed it.

[00:01:13]Jay Acunzo: [00:01:13] Yeah.  I'd love to answer. I spend very little time thinking about the trends and what everyone else is doing, because if I did that, I think I would probably break down.

[00:01:22]I'm so focused on trying to. Serve the audience that I'd like to serve that it's difficult to follow the trends, but I will say that I think what we're living through,  you hear the phrase creator economy used quite often. And I think what we're living through is a very dangerous transition for a group of people who are trying to earn a living and a comfortable living at that using their creativity.

[00:01:46]Because on the one hand you have momentum. Which is helping more and more people say, well, I have this craft,  for me,  I like to create shows. I like to tell stories about the workplace. Somebody else might focus on a different niche, [00:02:00] but I have this creative craft. It's never been a better time to go and build your own audience, which by the way means moving off of social media, using social media, but not stopping there, moving people to your website and your email list, building an audience.

[00:02:14]And serving that audience more deeply with products and experiences that they pay for. So it's never been a better time for that, but it's also very dangerous because with that momentum comes this, misunderstanding that to do this, you need to be famous that you need to be an influencer. And I think fame and influence  is becoming way too closely tied to the creator economy.

[00:02:39]So I think where I'd like to see this all go. Is to have a middle-class develop. So middle-class in a, like a classic sense that there's a sociologist named Dennis Gilbert. He wrote a great book called the American class structure in an age of growing and an inequality. And Gilbert defines middle-class as upper and lower middle-class.

[00:02:59] So there's two little segments, but they combined to make up about 45 to 50% of the total population. And that 45 to 50% is judged based on their ability to have a comfortable standard of living significant economic security, considerable work autonomy, and a reliance on their own expertise to sustain themselves.

[00:03:21]So what I'd like to see is a future in the not too distant future, by the way, where we stop trying to be super famous and have. Massive and impressive audience reach. And we actually truly embrace the ideas like Kevin Kelly's 1000 true fans or Seth Godin's smallest viable audience and try and find a small number of people who react in a big way to what we do and serve them more deeply.

[00:03:49]And how do we get there? I think we need to stop trying to be social media famous and trying to serve people with our craft. So  my fear. Is that way too many people are [00:04:00] way too excited about more and more, more bigger, bigger, bigger, get famous in a niche or anything. General. My hope is that we can get to a place where 45 to 50%.

[00:04:08] And that's, I think that's the bar. If you look at all, creators are 45 are about half of them able to earn a comfortable standard of living with significant economic security work autonomy. Using their expertise to sustain themselves. And I think it's going to take a lot of education to get there better tools.

[00:04:27]And most importantly, this shifting mindset from essentially building on rented land like YouTube or Twitter and moving over to a platform you actually own like your own website and email list.

[00:04:39]Naga S: [00:04:39] Got it. Let me double click on some of the concepts that you've spoken about here. Right? First one is Kevin Kelly's , a hundred true fans or legions thousand true fans, or what they talk about in terms of how much money are these folks willing to give you so that you are able to pursue your craft.

[00:04:56]Right? So in order for us to be able to get to these thousand of these hundred people, you will at least need to reach like a 10,000 folks or like, you know, 5,000 folks. Right. And they might eventually convert into those smaller number of people who might end up being, who are potentially be able to sustain us financially.

[00:05:14]So if your suggestion is for folks not to be too worried about having a broad reach, or I think what you're really trying to say is that people should not approach like a, have a spray and pray approach, where they say that I'm trying to get  everyone is my audience. And you're saying that you really need to have a niche.

[00:05:31]But my question is more fundamental in terms of how do you really build that first initial audience who would be like the top of the funnel for your paying customers later on?

[00:05:41]Jay Acunzo: [00:05:41] Everything I'm about to say is going to sound incredibly hard to do, because everybody wants to see the final result, but I assure you, I don't know any other way to do this other than you get incredibly lucky.

[00:05:51]Lightning strikes and suddenly lots of people know who you are. So I think those stories are mostly myth here. Here's what I encourage people to [00:06:00] do. Stop thinking about the funnel and think about your audience as a series of concentric circles. So kind of like a bullseye in the middle and bigger and bigger circles moving out from the middle.

[00:06:09]When you think of it like a funnel, I think you do think of it kind of the way you just described it, Naga where you need to reach 10,000 people to get a hundred or a thousand to. For example, subscribed to your newsletter. I actually think you need to just put aside the funnel, right? Stop trying to reach a lot of people first and convert a few people in the end of it all.

[00:06:29]And start thinking about these concentric circles, where in the middle there's this circle called super fans. And as you radiate out from super fans, you get closer and closer to total strangers. What most of us try to do when we market, what we do is we go to total, strangers may be passive observers of our work, and we try to basically try to get them to like us quickly.

[00:06:52]And that makes no sense. So whether you think in like human relationship terms or dollars and cents. It's inefficient and ineffective to try and convince total strangers that you're worth subscribing to or paying it's a lot easier and a lot more in line with how humans work to go to five other human beings that, you know, you can serve more deeply and try to build something that they like.

[00:07:14]So I think most of us are in a position where we have some people in our network, social network or otherwise like online network or in the real world where we can reach a very small number of people. I mean, whatever small means to you, one, five, 15, 5,500, it depends on you and give them something that they love and react too strongly.

[00:07:34]And if you can't do that, Then that's the problem. The problem isn't I can't reach more people, but I need to, the problem is you haven't actually built something that people are willing to refer others. So ostensibly, if you reach, I don't know, let's pick a number, a hundred people to listen to your podcast episode.

[00:07:52]You should be  pretty well situated to grow the show more easily because those hundred people should be spending [00:08:00] a lot of time with you and telling all their friends. You know, relevant friends, check out that show. I think we assume we do that. We assume that we're actually creating something for super fans that is worth sharing.

[00:08:12]And then we say, well, it's not growing. So the problem must be the marketing. We have to go reach 10,000 people. I don't think that's true. I think actually, when you think about building a real-world community, you think about meeting up for coffee or drinks with two or three people, then two or three more next time than five or six more.

[00:08:30] The next time, then you have an event, then you have a panel. Then you have a huge conference. Like it really is that slow build approach. It's the same online, just because you can reach a lot of people doesn't mean that that's actually an effective way to grow. It actually starts by making something that one or a few people really, truly do love.

[00:08:48]And tell their friends about, and it's a dangerous assumption to make. If you're not growing to assume you've actually done that. So the way it's sum this up is most of the time we don't have a marketing problem, we have a product problem. We have a service problem. We have a depth problem, not a reach problem.

[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] Got it. I also think that some of this narrative is being carried over from like the startup world or like SAAS businesses in general, that they refer to all of these numbers of like funnels and that that's how they look at the world. However, the mental model that you suggested, which is how actual  communities really get built.

[00:09:23] It's the way creator should be looking at it. Like, no, it should be like, they're talking to the first individual 5,000. How many of the people that they can and then see how they can expand that. That's a great insight that you give that. So then the next question I have for your Jay is that now you mentioned that it's not about marketing, it's your product and you've, you've seen a ton of content.

[00:09:46]And there will be some things that set apart great content from everything else that's out there.   In global shows, your, you spoke about, we don't really need another podcast, which talks to you [00:10:00] know, famous authors and how they got there.

[00:10:01] But what we need is something. A lot more specific though. Can I just ask you to dive a little bit deeper into  what makes a great product, especially now that our attention spans are so low and there's so many things that are finding to make us want to look at

[00:10:16]Jay Acunzo: [00:10:16] Sure. I mean, our attention spans aren't so low because we're bingeing, Netflix shows we're subscribing to newsletters that write essays.

[00:10:23]We're reading books were having conversations with friends and family. I read somewhere and I wish I remember who said this. This is not my quote. We don't have we don't have shorter attention spans. We have shorter interest spans, which means we are going to tolerate things that are not engaging and not personal for less time. So table stakes be relevant. Table stakes, be enjoyable. Differentiating is to feel refreshing that you've done something different and good, not just a random stunt, not a gimmick that feels hollow to grab attention, but something delightful that people didn't expect in a welcome way. Differentiating is to feel personal.

[00:11:02] Like you want the reaction not to be, this is a popular thing, but you want it to be, this is my favorite thing. And favorite is not number one in the category. It's not different because you pulled a stunned. Favorite means somebody's personal and preferred pick for a specific purpose. So when you think about a product, a service content, any experience today, the goal is to make it feel personal to the other person you're trying to serve, or the audience we're trying to serve.

[00:11:28] In other words, the best reaction you can get is they say to you, now this is speaking to my soul. That's what you want. Your brand, the way you position it, the story you just publish, the way you talk about the world and see the world and lead your community. This is speaking to my soul. It is my personal preferred pick for this specific purpose.

[00:11:47] It is my favorite. And so, you know, your favorite restaurant may not be the top rated restaurant. Your favorite shirt may not win any awards for fashion. My favorite basketball team is the New York Knicks. If [00:12:00] you know anything about basketball, you know, the New York Knicks are one of the worst basketball teams.

[00:12:04] So just really think about that objectively. One of the worst things in this set is my favorite thing. So feeling like someone's favorite has nothing to do with how big it is or how academically or objectively awesome it is. It has nothing to do with the things we look at. When we look at our peers, it has everything to do with, are you resonating deeply with somebody on a personal level?

[00:12:26]So backing all the way up to starting your build a product content, a podcast, something else. There's really some set problems you're going to face, which I think we fail to address because we're so focused on the tech and the distribution and the measurement of it all. But the first challenge you're going to face is are you saying something that matters?

[00:12:46]So if it's a podcast, for example, have you actually developed a premise for your show? And a premise is not just the topics you explore. It's not just what you cover. It's also how you explore them. So it's your topics plus your hook? So there's plenty of sales podcasts in the world who talked to experts in sales, but there is only one podcast for salespeople that explore the value of practice in your sales job.

[00:13:13]And that's a show called practice first from a SAAS company called Lessonly. So that's a good example. Lessonly is saying something that matters. They observed their sales audience and they're like, look, you want to be better at sales? Well, I think you need to be better at practicing your craft. So Lessonly sells training software for salespeople, and they know that their customers who value practice close faster, and they're more valuable for their businesses.

[00:13:38]Well, they're also then saying to the world, we need to elevate the role of practice. So we're not going to just interview a bunch of sales executives on this show on practice. First, we're going to learn how world-class practices do that to then try to translate it to our world in sales. So they'll talk to Olympians, they'll talk to Somalis.

[00:13:58]They will talk to coaches. [00:14:00] And to me that is. That's IP that's intellectual property. That is defensible because when you say that to the world, like, actually this is something that matters to us and to the community, someone is saying, man, that is speaking to my soul. I'm with you, I'm on the journey to understand practice and how to practice better as a sales individual.

[00:14:20]And someone else is saying, yes, I'm in sales, but I don't believe that practice is that important. Well, that's fine. This is not a show for you. That's okay. Also, if you, if you tried our product, you would dislike our product too. So it's that level of specificity and saying something that truly matters of combining your topics.

[00:14:38] In other words, what you explore with your hook, that unique angle into the topics, your point of view, your quest, that you're bringing people on. Those are the things that combined to say something that matters. And those are the starting points for building in your words, a great product.

[00:14:53]Naga S: [00:14:53] So now we've spoken about the number of people that you need for your, like a minimum viable audience you've spoken about. How do you make a great product once content creator has achieved both of these things? What do you think is the next best way to achieve? Monetization. And what I mean by monetization is that the audience typically is expecting to either be entertained or to learn something new or to be taken on a journey or be disconnected from reality, so to speak because they just want to relax and unwind when, when they're consuming content apart from these three broad value teams, what are some of the other Aspects that creators can keep in mind so that they can move towards monetization in a quicker and more thoughtful manner.

[00:15:43]Jay Acunzo: [00:15:43] I can't answer that question because it's too general. Because there's a million, everything at our disposal today, our tools. Right. So like, could you do a course? Sure. Could you run ads? Sure. Could you sell a book? Absolutely. You know, could you create a membership group? Absolutely. These are all tools.

[00:15:58]And so [00:16:00] rather than have me give a general answer, I would encourage people to go and talk to their audience and understand what is. Still bugging them. What problem is left under addressed or what thing is under explored that they'd like to understand better? So we have all these tools at our disposal and I'm kind of struck by today.

[00:16:20] We're all looking for that, answer, that silver bullet, you know, the savior tactic, you should do this. Well that's general advice and I don't know the variables of your specific situation. So just ignore what I say and go talk to your audience. You know, a good example of this is,  this podcast called three clips, which is where podcasts join us and take us inside their best work.

[00:16:41]And we do so by playing three different clips and breaking them down together. So I talked to the audience of three clips all the time on social media. I do one-on-one video calls through my newsletter. And one of the things I've recognized is this audience desperately wants to create really awesome shows, but there's this disassociation.

[00:17:02] They feel between their heroes and them, whether they admire great podcasts, but they're like, Oh, I could never do anything that big. Well, it's like, okay. But if you're like, listen to the show, these people aren't describing anything big or stunt, like they're describing these tiny choices they made all the time that combined to making a great show.

[00:17:20]So you can put process to that. Well, what is the process I was, you know, okay, I'll go write some essays about what I'm learning from the show. I'll send some tweets, I'll send some newsletter, additions, all about the things I'm learning and thinking about as a result of this show. And now I'm looking for, you know, am I getting a strong reaction from the audience?

[00:17:38]Okay, the answer is yes. Great. Well, how do I then go a level deeper with these ideas? Let me take one specific thing. And in this case, I took the premise because that is such an important and overlooked thing. How do you develop a premise for your podcast? That's what prompts subscription. That's what drives the sharing of your show?

[00:17:55] It's what helps you make choices inside your show? The premise development is [00:18:00] crucial, but most people don't think of the premise. They think of growth. They think of growing the show. How do I know that? Because I talked to these people and when I bring up premise development, it's like their eyes glaze over and they have no idea what I'm talking about.

[00:18:12] Then I explain it, you know, then I explain it, then they get it. So when I talk about growth, they lean in, when I talk about premise development, they lean back. So I have to put the two together. So you want to grow your show. Great. What makes a growable show? Well, it starts with the premise. So then I developed a course.

[00:18:29]To help people grow their shows by developing a better premise called it Growable shows. So all those decisions from the content I'm creating, you know, that's away from the show to pressure test my ideas to the name itself growable shows because I could have called it premise development. It all comes from me talking to the audience.

[00:18:47] So as a creator today, it can be overwhelming because you have myriad tools and tons of different products that you could create for your audience. There's no way you can pick that out. In theory, you have to just pursue endless curiosity and pursue little threads that your audience surfaces to you. And for me, the best way to do that is actually not to create podcast episodes it's to write is to use writing as a way to explore.

[00:19:11]I might learn something through the podcast, but then I'm like, great. I'm going to write a ton about this stuff. I'll write stuff on Twitter. I'll write stuff in my blog. I'll write stuff on my newsletter. I'll write and write and write until I understand these things better. And have process and have technique I can teach.

[00:19:25] And I'm also getting a feedback loop for my audience to understand if they're, if they're picking up what I'm putting down. So I know that's a long answer, but I don't think there is a simple answer. I think it is go talk to your audience, but be process-driven about it.

[00:19:36]Naga S: [00:19:36] Yup. I love the fact that you're, you're not only engaging with your audience and in one form.

[00:19:42] Right? And, and even as part of the clips, you also have like specific episodes that are just dedicated to input your conversation with the listeners and the kind of stuff that you hear back from them.

[00:19:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:19:52] That's another great example of talking to the audience that I sort of discovered by accident. It's like I do.

[00:19:58]A listener mailbag episode, [00:20:00] once in awhile, where mostly on Twitter, I ask if people have questions about creating shows and we'll do five to seven questions in an episode that I'll answer. So we don't have a guest. It's not the usual production. It's just Q and a, and I'm answering questions I got on Twitter.

[00:20:14]And what I realized is everybody's questions, or a lot of questions tend to focus on things that they think they need to know. But I want to show them actually, what you really need to know is over here. And I can't just say that I have to start with the problems that they think they have and walk them every step of the way to the problem that I know they have.

[00:20:36]Which is something I learned as a public speaker, because when you give a keynote speech, unlike a breakout speech or talk, you're giving like a big idea how to think talk. And so the keynote, you can't just get up there and be like, everybody's doing it wrong. Think about it this way. Instead you have to say, so we all want to get over there.

[00:20:54]Right. And here's how we're going about it today. Okay. We're in agreement. Okay. Well, here's the problems with the status quo with our current approach. And people go, huh? Hadn't thought about it or, Oh my goodness. Yep. You get me. Those are the problems I deal with all the time. And then you can say, okay, well consider this different thing here.

[00:21:13] Let me give you a story that shows what it looks like. Let me break it down into a framework that we can use with some lessons and some examples, you know, and let's go deeper if you want away from the speech. Let's talk after subscribe to my newsletter, take a course, et cetera. So this idea of being a keynote speaker kind of taught me that our jobs as creators is not the pander to existing market demand. It's actually to look at what people think they need and actually tell them what they really need. You know, the, the classic idea of Henry Ford talking about his customers. Like if I asked my customers what they wanted, they would've said faster horses.

[00:21:46]So actually we're all in the business of understanding the pain, understanding the problems, understanding what is broken about the status quo and people's current processes. But then we can't just propose a radically new and different solution or category. We have to [00:22:00] start with where they're at and move them every step of the way towards something better.

[00:22:03]And for my money, one of the best ways to do that today is to start a podcast. So that's why I love it because a podcast is like a journey between the status quo or your current understanding. And something better in the distance. So it kind of mirrors a keynote speech stretched out over a much longer period of time, but either way as a creative person, you are in the business of making change and helping people do something better or differently.

[00:22:26] Not just saying everybody's asking for this. So I'll write a bunch of stuff that addresses that you're in the business of change.

[00:22:32]Naga S: [00:22:32] You spoke about how every creator's journey to monetization. Is different. And you also said that, , that there are different things that they might not know that they want, but it's up to us to find out what they really need and help them bridge the gap.

[00:22:47]One of the ways to bridge the gap also is to see what someone else is doing in your blog posts. You've spoken about extraction. It's spoken about how do you observe and document like. The underlying framework of a particular episode. I think I wrote about it in reference to a TV show.

[00:23:04]How can somebody apply that in terms of borrowing, so to speak best practices from other creators so that they're able to apply it for their content?

[00:23:15] Jay Acunzo: [00:23:15] It's a great question. I rejected the idea early in my life that creativity. And great creative projects have a format, have a structure, have a repeatable process.

[00:23:25]But if you look at everything from scientific studies about creativity, to just real-world examples and advice from people, constraints actually yield better creativity. I think we, we believe the opposite. We believe we want creative freedom, but I think that's only because we've had bad constraints or constraints we disagree with or didn't know were there.

[00:23:44] With teammates, employers, ourselves, but putting positive or proactive constraints on your work actually breeds better creativity. And one amazing type of constraint to put on your work is the format of whatever it is you're creating. So for me, those are [00:24:00] shows. So I have a, I have two podcasts. I've mentioned three clips.

[00:24:03]The other one I have is a show called unthinkable, which three clips has kind of a segmented interview on thinkable as a narrative style show. So to heavier production, lots of story and voiceover and music and sound design, and the audience gets one end to end episode. Every time it feels like one coherent story.

[00:24:20]But what I know is happening underneath an episode, which then makes me better to create it is I know we have six or seven blocks of content with the same purpose. A block is for this B block is for that. And they have different runtimes. And we have to fill those blocks with content. So we're going to go and research.

[00:24:36] We're going to go interview. We're going to craft it and in editing. And I got that idea from TV because in TV you have both visible and invisible what they call rundowns. So visible rundown is like a news program often has that you see the ticker of what subjects they're covering and when a sit-com or a story style show, anything where you don't know the format, it's not told to you.

[00:25:00] That's an invisible rundown. And so my favorite storyteller is Anthony Bordain and his show parts unknown on CNN before, you know, he tragically died and I took a notebook early in my time, creating unthinkable. And I sat down with that show and I just tried to document what is it that makes his show so magical?

[00:25:18] Like what's the format, even if him and his production team didn't have it in their heads. There's something going on in repeatable fashion here. And if I could extract the rundown. I can modify it and use it for my show. So I'm not trying to imitate Bordain. I'm just trying to have a flow that feels similar to his.

[00:25:36]So my voice is different, but the structure is the same. And you can do that with anything you admire take a notebook, see if you can figure out what your favorite creators are doing underneath their content. What's the structure of a given story of your favorite newsletter or book. You know, how do they actually format that video that you love?

[00:25:54]And chances are, you can come up with something that approximates their plan, or maybe they didn't have a plan, but you have [00:26:00] a structure anyway. So I call that exercise and extraction and it can really radically transform your creativity. You know, first of all, it gives you a repeatable process. So you don't burn out every time.

[00:26:11] Like every episode of unthinkable early on for me, felt like I was just kind of proceeding on gut feel alone and I would burn out a lot. Well, now you have a repeatable process. I know what I need to get in my research in my interviews with people in post, I have a plan. The second thing that happens is the audience gets a better final result because you have a plan to get them to the end of the thing, you know, in my case, in episode.

[00:26:33]So I have like a structure to it. Not just because it's fun or sounds right, but because lineup, all these sections, you have one great coherent experience that people don't want to leave. So it benefits your production, it benefits your audience sticking around, and it also benefits the longevity or show because you can look at that rundown and re-invent with purpose.

[00:26:52]Instead of being like, I have all these ideas for new types of episodes or additions. If my newsletter or my blog, you can say, well, this is the structure, you know, in my case of an episode, and every time we hit B block, it seems to fall apart. So let me change it. Or actually, I think we could try to experiment with a playful type of segment at the end, or maybe that becomes a mini series or a whole new show after we do it five or six times inside an existing episode.

[00:27:17]So you get to reinvent with purpose. So I think having structure is transformative, but we fight it too much as creative people. And I think that's a huge missed opportunity.

[00:27:25]Naga S: [00:27:25] The first time that I really, , had my brush with structure was when I was studying to get into business school. And I was reading about , reading comprehension, how do you break down a passage?  It was just a revelation for me to realize that even in my favorite Netflix show, there is a specific story arc.

[00:27:42]The protagonist is going through certain things and it always ends. With a clincher and that sort of  keeps you coming back for more and more and more. And this, like you said, like let's structure everywhere, but it's just that we're not really thinking about it or looking for it or looking for inspiration from those places.

[00:27:58]Jay Acunzo: [00:27:58] Yeah. Like there's, there [00:28:00] are some famous story structures, you know Joseph Campbell's hero's journey is a big one. There's a modified version of that that's been used in pop culture and entertainment from. Dan Harmon, who's the showrunner behind shows like community and Rick and Morty. He uses something called the story circle.

[00:28:15] You can just pull up Google images and search for hero's journey or Dan Harmon story circle. And you'll find that it just makes sense, like these visuals explain story. I mean, even tiny little heuristics, like there's, there's a technique called the open loop. So here's an example of an open loop. So Naga this morning I went downstairs to my kitchen and  my notebook was sitting on the counter and I read the first page of my notebook, which had five words that inspired me.

[00:28:43] And I read them every  morning. Okay. Nothing happened in that story like this, literally a story about nothing. I went to the kitchen, I looked at my notebook. I read five words that inspire me, but the question on your mind immediately, Is

[00:28:55] Naga S: [00:28:55] what are those five words?

[00:28:56] Jay Acunzo: [00:28:56] Exactly. And so you're like that story is about nothing, but please continue.

[00:29:01]And so open loops are just, you start a sequence of events and you end them later, you open questions or raise intrigue and you resolve them later. Open loops, even the word, but is a form of open loops. And that's what I thought. But then Naga called me. Who's Naga. Why he call you? How did it change your perception of what you thought the word, but is like a form of a tiny little open loop.

[00:29:25] It's a storytelling device. Open loops can span years, like game of Thrones who will sit on the throne. That's an open loop that the name itself opened for the audience. It raised intrigue. Before you even saw the show. If you just heard the name during the promotion for season one, now there's already an open loop and that lasted 10 years.

[00:29:43]So big and small, you have this technique called the open loop and we don't know how to wield it as creators. So either we don't use intrigue or don't create questions. And so our experiences are flat or we use it in a very. Abusive way. We, you know, we re we [00:30:00] abused the responsibility inherent and being a communicator.

[00:30:03] And we do things like clickbait headlines, which is like a crude form of an open loop. And I think if you learn how to tactfully use tension, that's what creates great stories. And that is where these story structures come in, because it's like, okay, what details happened before the tension? Where do I introduce the tension?

[00:30:21] Where do I relieve the tension? And sometimes it's as simple as one, two, three, sometimes it's a little bit more nuanced and like a wave that, you know, rises and falls and story structure or ways for you to focus that. But without the structure and without even knowing these open loops exist, we're just winging it and good for us for doing that because a lot of people won't even try that.

[00:30:42]But if we want to have a sustainable thriving career, And we want to be better at this craft. I think we're far better learning about what actually goes on in the theory of it all to the structure, the format. How do we make things consistently and make things consistently better every single time?

[00:30:57]Naga S: [00:30:57] Absolutely. I think that's a phenomenal note for us to wrap up this conversation, Jay, who we've spoken about of extraction and spoken about structure, spoken about honing a craft and spoken about. The product or the premise marketing the right way. So can you bottom line it for us?

[00:31:15]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:15] Don't Mark it more matter more.

[00:31:17]If you just focus on that, you'll be set up for success. It's really hard to do because it's easy to market more. It's really hard to matter more, but I think if we focus on the wrong things, eventually we find out it's actually a lot easier to focus on mattering to people than marketing to people.

[00:31:33]Naga S: [00:31:33] Fantastic. Can people reach out to you? What's the best way for them to reach out,

[00:31:38]to reach out Twitter? You know, my show is three clips. That's about podcasting. And then my other show is about creativity at work, which is unthinkable.

[00:31:45]Fantastic. I'll make sure that I include the links to your shows as well as your Twitter handle in the show notes.

[00:31:52]Jay Acunzo: [00:31:52] Thanks Naga.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is there really such a thing called passive income? Is it accessible to creators? Dive into the nuances of the world of Affiliate marketing with an affiliate marketing veteran who's in the business for a decade and now derives all of this creator income from affiliate marketing.

Reach out to Dilip and Check out his content -

Affiliate Marketing Blog – https://dkspeaks.com

Podcast about Podcasting – https://thepodcastinguniversity.com

Tastes of India Podcast - https://thetastesofindia.com/

Instagram – https://instagram.com/dkspeaks

Facebook – https://facebook.com/dkspeaks

Twitter – https://twitter.com/dkspeaks

Pinterest – https://pinterest.com/dkspeaks

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - [email protected]

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

 

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Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

Transcript

[00:00:00]R Dilip Kumar: [00:00:00] Promoting products on my niche websites, creating niche websites that are solely focused on affiliate marketing.

[00:00:06] When I look at my podcasting journey and  what my goals for podcasting was, I was never looking at monetizing the taste of India podcast from the perspective that most podcasters look at it , sponsorships andmaybe a merchandise or, ads.

[00:00:21] So I wasn't looking at it from that perspective. My sole objective was to drive all of that traffic to my blog and then monetize my blog

[00:00:30]But once you've done it, if you're able to drive traffic to it, , it's income that stays there, that's passive. So people just come visit those posts, click on those links, buy and you'll get paid a commission.

[00:00:42] Naga S: [00:00:42] Hi, Dilip. Hello and welcome to the passion people podcast.

[00:00:45]R Dilip Kumar: [00:00:45] Thanks for having me here. I was looking for forward to this conversation for some time,

[00:00:48]Naga S: [00:00:48] can you tell us your story I know you run  an affiliate marketing blog an affiliate marketing podcast, and you're also  a great content creator in your own right with both you and your wife, having such famous websites and podcasts.

[00:01:01]R Dilip Kumar: [00:01:01] Thanks.  I have been an affiliate marketers since 2003. Okay. So is when I first learned about affiliate marketing it wasn't purely affiliate marketing. I started off with understanding what blogging was, and that was when, blogging was slowly taking off.

[00:01:18]I went into affiliate marketing because my objective of getting into blogging was to use the expertise or the knowledge that I had and make money. And just to give you a context, , 2002, 2003 was a time when. People who are making a lot of money using Google AdSense on their blogs and these blogs weren't really, extremely good content.

[00:01:40] It was just some content that they were putting out there. They were putting some Google AdSense in there and they were kind of making money. So that is where I actually started. And Google AdSense, wasn't really a very reliable option for me.  I diversified into learning, understanding what affiliate marketing is, [00:02:00] and that's how I got into affiliate marketing in 2003 is when I first put together my affiliate marketing website.

[00:02:07] But. Slowly and gradually I kind of graduated into a little more advanced methods in affiliate marketing, building, very niche specific sites that is oriented towards affiliate marketing. And that's what I've continued to do over the last, I think 14, 15 years

[00:02:25] ,  I came into podcasting first. The first podcast that I listened to was somewhere around 2005, 2006,  there was this guy, Yarrow Starack  it was Yarrow from who's ,  small course that I happened to learn what blogging is and what affiliate marketing is all about.

[00:02:41] So Yarrow had a podcast somewhere in  2005 and it was something very new, not a lot of podcasts. So that's whereI first encountered a podcast. I started my podcast on affiliate marketing for my primary blog Dkspeaks.com somewhere around 2010, 2011. Did it for almost about two years, but then, I was getting pulled into multiple directions because I wanted to focus my energy on something that I was doing for a long time.

[00:03:12] And I felt that somehow podcasting was taking a little too much time of mine.   One of the reason was that, , my wife started her blog that is thetastesofindia.com .

[00:03:21] That was in 2008 when she started. And there was a lot of energy that we were putting in to promoting that blog, building the audience. We had a lot of issues in terms of some hosting, going down a lot of content going down. So. I was  getting involved in a lot of these things that is where I took a break from podcasting on DK, speaks.com and then continued with affiliate marketing for a while until 2015.

[00:03:49]When , once again we felt that podcasting could be a good addition to what we were doing on the taste of India. And that is [00:04:00] where we started off podcasting again in 2015, September was when the first episode of the taste of India podcast came out. Since then we've consistently been releasing shows on the taste of India podcast.

[00:04:12] And it's been about an year that I started the podcasting university.com   and the podcast there. So it's a year. Because of the COVID impact,  I had to take a little break there, but then these other two podcast projects that I'm running right now, but primarily I am into affiliate marketing.

[00:04:30]Promoting products on my niche websites, creating niche websites that are solely focused on affiliate marketing.

[00:04:36]Naga S: [00:04:36] I understand. Let's dive right into the meat of the matter, ? So how much of your total income is delayed from affiliate marketing currently in a percentage, if I can ask you

[00:04:47] R Dilip Kumar: [00:04:47] It is almost a hundred percent. Once again, go back to how we started podcasts for the taste of India. I, to talk about the taste of India right now. So, when we started podcast that is suffering the podcast, it was not to start a podcast.

[00:05:02] It was to look at an alternate channel. To promote our existing [email protected]. So there was another audience. Who is focused on audio. And we felt that if we could engage with that audience who were focused on audio, we can bring them back to our websites and in fact, the blog as well.

[00:05:25] That is how we started with the taste of India podcast. So. When I look at my podcasting journey and  what my goals for podcasting was, I was never looking at monetizing the taste of India podcast from the perspective that most podcasters look at it , sponsorships and maybe a merchandise or, ads.

[00:05:44] So I wasn't looking at it from that perspective. My sole objective was to drive all of that traffic to my blog and then monetize my blog. So that's what we followed since the tastesofindia.com as a podcast started, and [00:06:00] we've mostly driving traffic back to our blog itself and  our earning is primarily from affiliate marketing that we're doing on the blog.

[00:06:06]So we've even stopped.  Google ads on the taste of India right now, because  there was feedback that we got from people saying that the ads are extremely intrusive, so we stopped and that wasn't a lot that we were earning from those Google ads  as well.

[00:06:21] So we are solely focused on affiliate marketing right now. And all  income that we are earning, all of it almost a hundred percent is coming from affiliate marketing.

[00:06:29]Naga S: [00:06:29] You guys all have your a hundred percent of your monthly income does through affiliate marketing. Okay. So let's take a few steps back.  Can you explain what is affiliate marketing and how is it different from the regular marketing and why should creators be interested to know about affiliate marketing?

[00:06:46] R Dilip Kumar: [00:06:46] Affiliate marketing is basically, you're promoting somebody's product, there is , a manufacturer or a service provider who already have a product, and you are promoting that product to your audience in return for a commission that they are going to pay you

[00:07:03] and affiliate marketing is a small pie from the overall revenue that these  e-commerce players are making, why is it that they're doing it because. No, it's a very easy advertising, medium for e-commerce companies. Now I'll take an example of Amazon, which is what we use mostly on the taste of India.

[00:07:22]Now, Amazon has their own affiliate marketing program. Similarly in India, Flipkart has their own affiliate program and for Amazon and Flipkart, while they might be paying out about maybe four to 8% off the total value of a sale. That budget,  the advertising budget for affiliate marketing, for the affiliates that they might be setting aside is absolutely zero because there is nothing that they need to do.

[00:07:46] It is affiliates who are interested in promoting that product, who don't go there, pick those links, promote those products, drive traffic to their products and facilitate the sale. So in return for that, if they are paying about four to [00:08:00] 8% off the sale that they are making,  it's worth it for them because they're saving a lot of money that they would otherwise have spent on advertising.

[00:08:08]So for e-commerce players, this is a very good medium. And just to give you a context, I kind of get into details of advertise affiliate marketing when I write my posts. So you might be surprised to see that the msn.com website that also has a lot of products that they promote.

[00:08:27] And they always have a note below that product saying that we are, these links are affiliate links and we might earn from a sale that happens through this link. I don't know why msn.com would have affiliate links on their website, but  it shows that there, isn't a lot of effort that you need to put in there that absolutely is there when you're starting off, when you're building it.

[00:08:50] But once you've done it, if you're able to drive traffic to it, , it's income that stays there, that's passive. So people just come visit those posts, click on those links, buy and you'll get paid a commission.

[00:09:01] That's basically what affiliate marketing is.

[00:09:04]Naga S: [00:09:04] I'm sure there's a little bit more nuance to it. Is it as simple as you're making it out to be.

[00:09:10]R Dilip Kumar: [00:09:10] I take an example of the taste of it, India right now.    We want to help people start their niche, blogs and run those blogs on affiliate marketing. So that's something that we are doing there.

[00:09:19]Now, if you go to taste of india.com. On every post that we put out, you will find that there are, Amazon products that we refer now, for example, if there is a recipe that we are making and the primary two ingredients in that recipe for simplicity,  let me say that it's organic all-purpose flour.

[00:09:38] Okay. Organic whole wheat atta that link is also linked using an Amazon affiliate and. On top of that, what we're also doing is if you go to the tastesofindia.com, you will find, there are pages that are dedicated to reviews that we write about specific products. And those products are  Amazon products that we are promoting.

[00:09:59]Each of [00:10:00] those posts,  if I get about let me say about thousand 2,500 page views in a day. People who are going there, the click-through rate, even  in a very poor situation, even if it is at about eight to 10%, that's a good number of people clicking on that link, going to the Amazon website.

[00:10:17]Now, one thing that you might want to note here is that if they click on that link, which for example is a whole wheat atta that link, they go to Amazon, but they're not buying whole wheat data. Instead they're buying something else. I get credited for that sale as well. So it isn't just that one product that I'm promoting, which is going to pay me, but anything that they buy once they click through from that link is a sale that has been generated  from my link.

[00:10:44]And I get paid for it. So to your question, is there nuances to it? To starting off with affiliate marketing, the basic simple step is that you have content, you have valuable content. And in between those content, you're providing contextual links to products that you want to promote as an affiliate.

[00:11:04]That is all that is there to affiliate marketing, the second aspect is generating traffic. That is where the larger effort is you need to generate traffic to those posts or those blogs in order to  generate those commissions.

[00:11:18] So to your questions  starting off is simple. But to build that, to generate that traffic, like,  in podcasting, the amount of effort that we put into promote our shows, it is pretty much the same there as well. You need to put in a lot of effort to promote, to build that audience.

[00:11:35] And only then that the returns  come.

[00:11:38]Naga S: [00:11:38] The difficult part is though content and then making sure that the audience comes in now after the, after the audience has come in.  Is it as simple as it's going to like the amazon.com and their affiliate page and the signing up, or are there any other gotchas where they'll tell you that, , if you don't make a sale in three months, we'll deal with your account and stuff like that.

[00:11:59] What are some [00:12:00] of the things that people should be aware of when they're signing up for this?

[00:12:04]R Dilip Kumar: [00:12:04] There isn't anything like that. , once you join an affiliate program. Like for example, I am an affiliate marketer. I joined their affiliate program. Amazon associates program. They wouldn't delist me. Even if I don't make a single sale for the next one year,

[00:12:18] it's entirely my choice when I want to promote it. When I want to drive traffic, when I want to make money, because making money is what my objective is to make money out of those links. So why wouldn't I want to promote it, but Amazon doesn't have to do anything with it. They'll just say, okay, if you don't want to do it, it's fine.

[00:12:32] But they will keep that account active.  There is nothing like that. And that's not just with Amazon with any affiliate program. They don't delist you, and there are a couple of , exclusions to it. I'll come to that, but otherwise in 95% of the affiliate programs, there isn't any conditions that you need to make money.

[00:12:53]But if you're consistently putting in that effort, you will generate a sale now when it comes to Amazon  this might be a little technical for people, but then when it comes to Amazon, the only thing is that Amazon provides an API access, which basically helps you to automatically pull in the products on their website, on the Amazon website and showcase that on your blog.

[00:13:15] Or your website. So if you don't generate a sale for an X amount of period, I think it's about 90 days or something, then that API access is something that you won't get, but you can still promote Amazon products. The only thing is that you need to manually copy that link and use that in your post. So that's.

[00:13:31] With Amazon, but there are a couple of affiliate networks. Like for example, there is a network called commissionjunction.com, which we've been using for quite some time.  Their website is cj.com. Now on cj.com. If you don't generate a sale for like 120 days, then your account becomes a dormant account.

[00:13:48] You need to, once again, go and reactivate it. And only then you will be able to promote the products. So there are very few networks, , I wouldn't even say 5% of the world networks, but very few networks who actually put that [00:14:00] condition in there. But otherwise 95, 98% of the networks, there isn't any such condition.

[00:14:05] You can join them, promote products as per your convenience. And that's it.

[00:14:10]Naga S: [00:14:10] The reason I was asking was because I was dabbling with affiliate marketing myself, and I was trying to get some sales for Amazon products and Amazon, after a couple of months, send me a notice saying that we're delisting your affiliate account because you're not you have not made a sale or anything like that.

[00:14:26] So I guess the rules are  updated, I guess this was two, three years back.

[00:14:30]R Dilip Kumar: [00:14:30] right. So , that isn't there because I've been  using Amazon for quite some time, now it doesn't there, but then the API access they'll revoke, they'll revoke the API access. You won't get that, but your account won't be delisted. You can still  promote the products.

[00:14:43]Naga S: [00:14:43] At the end of the day, this comes back to Who is the the audience for whom you are creating content. Subsequently what are the kind of products that your audience will be interested to buy.

[00:14:56]R Dilip Kumar: [00:14:56] Correct. So it has to be contextual because otherwise, , you might just be pushing some products that are absolutely irrelevant to your audience and you can absolutely do that. But then the point there is that conversions might not be what you are expecting, so it might just not work. So what does advisable list to push contextual products, which are,  relevant to your audience?

[00:15:18]Naga S: [00:15:18] Absolutely. And in order to find and push the contextual products, one needs to make sure that the show or the content that is being created as a very niche audience. Like the way you were talking earlier, right. About creating websites for niche audiences, because  what it is that those specific people are coming for.

[00:15:36] And especially in the context of content creators, it comes down to the premise. So what's the premise of your show, your podcast, your video, whatever it is. So that the relative products that linked to your premise can be showcased identified, and then the affiliate links for the same can be shown..

[00:15:54]R Dilip Kumar: [00:15:54] that's right.  All kinds of content, because what I feel is that there isn't any content [00:16:00] which might not have a product associated with it,  I'll give you an example.

[00:16:03] There are books on Amazon that I usually promote. If I read a book. I go ahead and promote that on my blog or my social media on my emails, I've put an influencer page together on Amazon, where I have listed all of the books that I liked. I recommend now these links have something that I keep sharing with  the website, visitors, with the audience through my emails.

[00:16:25] Now, these books also generate income for me because that, again, there is, a percentage that I I earned when people can click on those links and buy those books. So then as in the number of products that are available, that you can promote to your audience, and I don't think there is any niche that doesn't have any, any product or service associated with it.

[00:16:45] It is about you. Going into that depth and understanding what is it that you might want to promote to your audience, but you will definitely find something that you can promote

[00:16:57]Naga S: [00:16:57] Apart from Amazon, what are the other companies, or how do they approach a particular organization asking them about their affiliate program?

[00:17:05] Is it typically available on their website? Do you go, do you need to go through customer care? How, how does that typically work?

[00:17:10]R Dilip Kumar: [00:17:10] It's usually available on their website. So for example, if there is a product that you like now in my case, let me take the example of the podcasting university. Now that's typically targeting people who are interested in podcasts. Now there could be podcasts courses that are available.

[00:17:27] Now, there could be microphones that are available, pop filters. There could be a boom arm that is available. So now. If it is not Amazon, if it's a different product, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page and 90% of these. Products will have in, in their footer, they'll have a link to the affiliate program.

[00:17:44] They will have an affiliate program. Now, assuming that there isn't an affiliate program, a simple thing that you can do is pick that product, go to Google, enter that product's name and add affiliate program  next to it and do a quick search, you will find if there is an affiliate [00:18:00] program for that product, you'll be able to find that on Google.

[00:18:02]Now that is a second way of doing it. A third way is to join some of these networks. Now, like the one that I said, cj.com is basically an affiliate network that has a ton of affiliate products, starting from everything, insurance, car insurance, home loans, personal loans. And, , typically as in any kind of finance products services, they have a ton of different products you can pick.

[00:18:26] What is it that you want to promote? You can reach out to them. There is an approval mechanism where they there is a short intro that you need to provide them as to how is it that you're planning to promote their product and all of those things. And if they find that it is something that they feel is right, then we'll approve you and you can promote those products.

[00:18:42] Now cj.com has an approval format. There are some other products, some are some other networks which do not have any approval system. So all that you need to do is just go and apply for the Affiliate program. They'll approve you and then you can promote it. So you'll be able to find the affiliate programs for most of these products and services, because today, like what I said , affiliate marketing is the easiest advertising.

[00:19:07] System that is available to any product or service creator. I'm a huge fan of PatFlynn  now, if you go to his website, he's put together a lot of those courses and all of those courses have affiliate programs.

[00:19:16]You can join those affiliate programs and promote. So, , you will find an affiliate program. If for some reason, a product or service doesn't have an affiliate program. There is a similar service or product that might be available that has an affiliate program, which you can always promote.

[00:19:31]Naga S: [00:19:31] You spoke about Pat Flynn, right. And how his courses have  affiliate program links and et cetera. Now, if I'm a content creator based out of India,  does it make sense for me to reach out , to affiliate programs that are based outside of India as well? Are they  open to making payments for the cross border individuals or does it make more sense to restrict myself to organizations within India as a country that I am resident.

[00:19:55] And so that I'm able to minimize any of these logistical foreign [00:20:00] exchange related matters.

[00:20:00]R Dilip Kumar: [00:20:00] I wouldn't recommend that Naga because the sole reason why we are into this digital world is so that we can cross boundaries, reach audience that is beyond the boundary of the region. Or the area that we are located in. And if you're trying to limit yourself within that boundary, then the entire concept of the digital marketing  fails.

[00:20:19] I wouldn't advise it. And I 'll take my own example. There are a lot of products and services that I consume and most of those products and services are all from creators that are based out outside of India. It's not based within India. So. From within India as an Indian, if I am consuming those products and services, I don't see why , I wouldn't be able to find a market for those products and services within India.

[00:20:45] If I'm promoting that as an affiliate program.  There is no real logistical roadblocks there because it's. All about getting approved for that affiliate program, getting your links, promoting it contextually on your blog or your website. So from your audience's perspective, all that they are doing is clicking on that link.

[00:21:06]They are taken to that product page. They go through that sales page. See if that product is something that they might want to invest in, or they might want to buy, they click buy. Now, go ahead, buy it. If they bite you on a commission, if they don't.  That's it. So there is nothing in terms of logistical roadblock, and I wouldn't advise that you should limit yourself to within India until, and unless you are so focused into a niche that or a product or service that you think only Indians might be using and nobody outside might be using.

[00:21:40] So I don't personally recommend doing that , the wider it is the better it will be for you from a overall monetization perspective.

[00:21:49]Naga S: [00:21:49] You don't see a challenge with, to seeing look for an extent and stuff like that. Especially in countries like India.

[00:21:54]R Dilip Kumar: [00:21:54] This is a question that , I was asked, there was a mentorship that I was doing for [00:22:00] a couple of these folks on affiliate marketing. And there was this question that they are saying that what if they don't pay me ? All of these systems that have been put in place, for example, if it is Amazon.

[00:22:10], when I'm talking about Amazon it is Amazon India because Amazon and Amazon, you a United States will have two different kind of customer base because us wouldn't  ship to India. So when you're  promoting Amazon India products, it is for the Indian audience. That's something that I just wanted to kind of clarify .

[00:22:27]Most of these affiliate programs there is a robust system that is put in there where. Oh, the creator or the product manufacturer or  the person who's, who's put together that service cannot kind of  refuse to pay you because that,  sale that they generate when that sale is generated, that is an X percentage, which is basically the affiliate commission that X percentage is kind of retained by the network.

[00:22:53] And then they pay it over to you. So it's just that there might be conditions. For example, some affiliate networks would say that until, and unless you've reached a hundred dollars, they wouldn't pay you. There are some networks that would say, okay, the payment will happen once in 30 days. But those are already terms that are just common with most affiliate networks.

[00:23:10] So from a payment not happening,  it's all a robust system that is there in place just that you shouldn't fall for something that is  an obvious scam or, , a product that doesn't have credibility. That's the only thing that you need to avoid. But otherwise that is, there is no such issues.

[00:23:25]Naga S: [00:23:25] That's good to know.  The point on the credibility also is a really good one because it also reflects adversely on our audience and the content that we make.  If we are recommending products that are inferior quality, or just because someone is giving us a higher affiliate commission. You don't want to lose that trust or Goodwill that the audience's placing in you and they're consuming content, or even when they're purchasing stuff off of our affiliate links.

[00:23:48]R Dilip Kumar: [00:23:48] On that piece, something that I do right now as in there is a lot that has changed in my overall business methodology. So something that I do right now is that if there is a [00:24:00] product that I promote, I ensure that I'm trying it out or I'm using it. So if you go to Amazon most of the products that you will find, there is something that I have in some way been related to now there could be some , products, like, for example, if it's a large appliance let me say, maybe I'm recommending a refrigerator or I'm recommending maybe , a microwave oven to my audience. Then in that case, I would obviously recommend the oven that I'm using . I would put  forward, all of those advantages and disadvantages of that oven at the same time, I would recommend some of those competitor ovens as well, which I would have researched before I went ahead and made that purchase. So I wouldn't just go and recommend something that I have absolutely no clue about. Because that is where, , your entire credibility can take a hit. So anything as in like what I said, , the books that I recommend is something that I have read. If I haven't read it, I wouldn't recommend it. The products that I am recommending, for example, on the taste of india.com, there is a page where we've put together how to start a food blog and make money with it.

[00:25:08] Now that page has some of these products. All of it is something that we've used. . So we will recommend products and services that we try out  , we are at a better position to  pitch that product to my audience.

[00:25:21] And it also ensures that the credibility is maintained.

[00:25:24]Naga S: [00:25:24] That's a good point in terms of all of the products that you had researched, but didn't really end up buying. That's a good way of expanding the reach to products that you have not tried, but have come close to trying.

[00:25:36] So Dilip as we reach the end of the episode, bottom line it for me.

[00:25:41]R Dilip Kumar: [00:25:41] We got reconnected through podcasts, so something that I find. Today. And this is because, , the, on the podcasting university, I spent a lot of time researching on the podcasting industry, what is happening.

[00:25:54] Something that I really found is that there is a lot that we are leaving on the table in terms of monetization [00:26:00] while we are talking about monetization a lot. On podcasting. That the point is that today we are, as in very narrowly focused, looking at only a couple of avenues of monetizing the shows, there are other forms, other ways in which you might be able to earn money monetize your shows.

[00:26:17] The only thing is that you need to see how is it that you want to go about doing it. And one big problem that I've seen is that. Most of these podcasts as in good podcasts. They don't have a real estate  , meaning of website on the internet. I have been a firm believer that you need to have. Website on the internet  to which you will have to drive your audience, build your audience and see listeners will come and they'll go. But how is it that you're going to retain your listeners? You will only be able to retain your listeners if you drive them to some concrete space on the internet and connect with them.  Continue to connect with them.  In my case, , I'm extremely focused on email marketing. So , I'm building my list and I keep sending people an email with the latest episode that we release. And that gets me the initial kick in terms of the, listens for the first two, three days.

[00:27:14] So, , how is it that we are retaining those listeners, engaging with them? These are some things that are being overlooked in the podcasting space, in our market today is something that I feel. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity in terms of using podcasts to drive traffic to your blog, and then maybe using affiliate marketing as a monetization method which is something that I think people can explore.

[00:27:36]Naga S: [00:27:36] Absolutely. And what about the non podcast creators who are looking to evaluate affiliate marketing?

[00:27:43] R Dilip Kumar: [00:27:43] Affiliate marketing and in more so in the current situation, , after COVID , there are a lot of people who lost their jobs, but. What I feel is that affiliate marketing is something that is worth exploring as anybody who can put in some effort [00:28:00] into building that business affiliate marketing can be a full-time business for you.

[00:28:06] And , I'll take this from Pat Flynn's website. His website is smart, passive income, and. If you see, he talks about passive income and is somebody who's promoted, affiliate marketing so much. Then if you just go to your website, you'll be able to find that his core income source , primary income source was affiliate marketing.

[00:28:25] It's something that anybody who wants, who's looking at an alternate method of earning of income can use. There needs to be some effort you will have to put in some effort you will have to be consistent. You will have to just like in pretty much every other content marketing field, you will have to put in some effort, drive the traffic. Wait for  that  exponential growth to happen for people to start clicking on your links, buying products for your affiliate commissions to come in. It is not going to happen overnight, but  that's extremely a good Avenue that I think people should explore. It's a very good  alternate source of income.

[00:29:05] If you were somebody who doesn't want to only stick to maybe doing a job or maybe running a brick and mortar business.

[00:29:11]Naga S: [00:29:11] That's. Phenomenal insights.

[00:29:14]I'll also make sure that I include your contact information in the show notes so that people are looking to reach. You can not drop your emails and your tweet, and they can reach you for more details.

[00:29:25] Thank you for taking the time to be on the patient people podcast. This has been great.

[00:29:29]R Dilip Kumar: [00:29:29] thanks, Naga. It was a pleasure talking to you and, , I value be extremely happy if anything that I shared , it provides value to, to the audience.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dive into how creators can curate and scale online communities as a key monetisation and engagement lever with Abhishek the chief curator of the Remote Indian Community. Abhishek is the creator of the RemoteIndian project - A vibrant community of more than 1400 members in India, some of whom are working at Doist, Gumroad, Gitlab, Prisma etc. This community enables Indian professionals to help each other navigate, balance and grow in a remote career. 

 

Insights from the episode can be translated in context of a specific show, target audience and value to be provided.

 

The idea of normalising remote work in India came after Abhishek found a lot of joy working remotely as a Ruby on Rails developer in 2016. But he also realised that loneliness and lack of information is a big problem in remote work and he thought it would be more fun to solve these unique challenges as a group.

 

Reach out to Abhishek -

Remote Indian - https://remoteindian.com/ 

e-mail - [email protected]

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - [email protected]

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

 

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DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organisation.

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Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Abhishek: [00:00:00] I was always curious about this question, that, okay what is a good life

[00:00:04] the interesting part is now I actually feel heard and I feel understood. And that's the great part about, , building a community you're scratching your itch, but then you also realize there are so many other, , human needs, which are being fulfilled.

[00:00:20] The biggest of which is, , being connected with each other

[00:00:23] I wanted to. Take this microphone that I had, and  give it now to the community  you don't want to be a place where you're the only person holding the microphone.

[00:00:32] I want to keep it as open and accessible  they might,   feel that social debt of sorts to support the community

[00:00:38] Naga S: [00:00:38] H ey Abhishek hello and welcome to the passionate people podcast.

[00:00:41]Abhishek: [00:00:41] Hey Naga, It's my pleasure to be here.

[00:00:43]Naga S: [00:00:43] Abhishek in the current season. We're talking about creators and how they're monetizing in the context of COVID and in, in the spectrum of monetization. I believe that community creation is a very important aspect that a lot of creators either miss out on, or don't think about it in the right way.

[00:01:00]The reason I'm excited to be talking to you is because you have successfully,  , conceptualized an idea for a community and scaled it to over a thousand members. So I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation.

[00:01:13]Abhishek: [00:01:13] Thanks. Thanks for having me, man.

[00:01:15] Naga S: [00:01:15] Super. So I think a good place to start would be just to give our listeners a background of who you are and also some background on remote Indian and we'll take it from there.

[00:01:24] Abhishek: [00:01:24] I'm a computer science grad passed out in 2010 and started off working in an MNC.  This was quite a while back.

[00:01:34]I knew that, , this was something which I was always curious about this question, that, okay what is a good life and somewhere,the feeling was that going to an office job and,  not having any say in where you could,  , work from. I, I felt that wasn't right.

[00:01:54] And obviously I am a guy who likes to pursue my curiosities or [00:02:00] pursue my questions very seriously. So, that's how,  this whole journey started. It took awhile, but after three years, I really decided that I needed to shift paths, learn Ruby on rails, on my own followed a bunch of people on Twitter and.

[00:02:16]Saw that, , they were   developers like me who were making remote , work for them. And I knew that this was something better than what I had   so that's how  I started off with my remote journey and in August, 2017, I was working out of a coworking space in a tropical Island called Colandra.

[00:02:43] This is in Thailand. And I was,  feeling really blessed and this was not the first time that I had this overwhelming feeling of joy. I had,  , spent two years of working remote till then, but My fear was that this joy could be short-lived. I wanted to build some resilience into this, this joy.

[00:03:04]So one example that I,  would like to give is what happens , if my client goes away or if I lose my job. when I used to speak to my friends their answers weren't, , very helpful. they would say that you could reach out to recruiters or you could,  , LinkedIn is a platform that you could use, but then I knew that, the journey that I was on, it would not work out for me.

[00:03:28] And. That's where, , the idea of remote Indian started it was just a, way to build some resilience into this remote working career of sorts. And I thought that if I could be connected to folks who were working  in similar companies  that way,  if they had any open opportunity in the company, chances were that I could have, , first dibs on it.

[00:03:51]So, yeah, but over the past three years of running the community,  I started this in August, 2017. So I've been doing this for [00:04:00] more than three years now.  The interesting part is now I actually feel heard and I feel understood. And that's the great part about, , building a community you're scratching your itch, but then you also realize there are so many other, , human needs, which are being fulfilled.

[00:04:17] The biggest of which is, , being connected with each other.  That's pretty much, , my story now and we have grown to more than thousand members, obviously Covid had some role to play there. And as you can see, a lot of people have now started working remotely and let's see, I think I'm quite excited to see where, we can go with this

[00:04:41]Naga S: [00:04:41] Are you also continuing your remote job currently or taking care of the community? a full-time gig?

[00:04:47] Abhishek: [00:04:47] I was working till the end of last year.  I felt that. Remote Indian was something which could be my life's work. And I had  this financial runway of sorts. Like I had some savings, which I could, take a leap of faith here by,   trying to see if remote Indian can be sustainable and.

[00:05:08]Yeah, I think this was the year where I, I hadn't planned that, things were like there would be a pandemic and all of these uncertainties would come about, but I'm happy to say that this has also been a great learning experience for me. Like just focusing only on one thing, which is remote Indian, I think helped me to clarify a lot of ideas.

[00:05:31]Naga S: [00:05:31] You mentioned about having a financial runway that allowed you to take the jump. Can you elaborate a little bit in terms of how you thought about it? How long this runway span and why that linked gave you the comfort?

[00:05:45]Abhishek: [00:05:45] Definitely. I am from a very   , normal family.

[00:05:48] In my family, nobody understands what I do for a living. So in order to have that Let's say sanity, I would say like just having a a [00:06:00] safety net of sorts.

[00:06:01] I think that gives you a lot of , confidence to teach, to do whatever you want to do. So I didn't want to,  I have that thought behind my head that, Hey, I'm actually, , I don't have money to pay my bills and things like that. So I had saved around one year of , my living expenses.

[00:06:19] And that's, that's how I kind of reasoned about it. That if I can get to these nimble number, which was, , $500 MRR, I think that was my minimum viable income. So I thought if I could raise that number by the end of end of 2020, then. I can, look at doing this more seriously. Otherwise the idea was to go back to a remote job and do this as a side project of sorts.

[00:06:46]

[00:06:46]Naga S: [00:06:46] And are you close to that number right now?

[00:06:50]Abhishek: [00:06:50] Yeah. I just crossed that number, 10 days back. So yeah, quite excited to finally it is that milestone and  it might seem like a very small number, but for, for me, who has been trying to figure this out and make this sustainable, I think this was a very big win for me.

[00:07:10]Naga S: [00:07:10] , can you walk us through the process that you went about in terms of scaling remote Indian from. , from this, you essentially right to where it is today, how did you think about the values that the community stood for and what were some of your thoughts at the start and how, how are you thinking about the same thing?

[00:07:30]Abhishek: [00:07:30] As I mentioned right at the start, it was just about. Building my own network of sorts. Like I was kind of building my own LinkedIn rather than using LinkedIn as a platform. I was kind of, , under the impression that I needed to do this, my own way. But over this period of time, as I've, started to enjoy

[00:07:53]This idea of building a community, the three things that have worked for me, one of the first things [00:08:00] was having some rituals. So the examples that I like to share your is  we have. These zoom calls every Saturday wherein I would either invite a guest and we could talk about a very unique challenge.

[00:08:17] So that was one of the things that, , build that habit, around which, the community could be built. The second example for a ritual would be the weekly newsletter that I send out. That was again, helpful that. I, was resurfacing the most valuable conversations happening in the, in the community because a lot of people wouldn't, , necessarily check Slack every week. So for them, this newsletter was a way to kind of, catch up with what things are going on. So these rituals  were very important. I think every community needs to have some rituals which can hold the community together.

[00:08:53]Then the second thing, which I would like to mention is that I. Highlighted the folks whose, whose behavior I wanted to promote in the community.  There were some people who have been very integral,  pillars  in this community and just giving them a voice or acknowledging their behavior.

[00:09:14]I think it gives you that That freedom or license to, , also feel that, okay, you're part of this and that's something , which has, , helped me a lot. So every time somebody has sent a pull request or every time somebody has collaborated with me on a particular project, I have, made it a very clear intention of,  giving them a shout out or maybe sending them an Amazon voucher or something to, , make sure that this is,  ,  what I would like.

[00:09:42] I don't want to be the lone Wolf here. And third it's a thing, which is important to me is that , being very authentic, I did not want to do something which felt uncomfortable to me. I knew for sure that if this was [00:10:00] going to be sustainable, then I cannot, , be trying to be something which I'm not   someday,  that facade will go away.

[00:10:08] And that's where I knew that I did not want to be very outgoing. I was comfortable in one-to-one conversations. So that's the medium which I chose and. I felt that helped me to,  sustain because we go, sometimes you won't get burnt out. Right. If you're trying to do something, which is very different from what you are.

[00:10:28] These are the key ways.  I've, tried to make this work.

[00:10:32]Naga S: [00:10:32] Ritual that helps keep the community together. Incentivizing good behavior. And staying true to your authentic self. Like these are the things that have worked for you. Can you also share some of the things that you tried that did not work.

[00:10:44]Abhishek: [00:10:44] I used to think in that solution mindset,  I would learn something new. There will be some  no-code platform maybe, which I came across and I thought that, Hey, why can't they use this to , build a member directory of things like that.

[00:10:57]But later on, these things wouldn't work out and that's, that's something which, which I realize. Second, I would say was the idea of having these body goals. The intention was to,  connect people within the community, but I realized that it was a very passive way of doing it in the sense that people had to take the responsibility of Making sure that they can book a calendar reaching out to the other person, things like that.

[00:11:27] So I would say generally,  things that have worked out where I have been very active and. The places where things haven't worked out wherein I have tried to, , scale too early, like I've tried to build a product Institute a system even before,  qualifying that there is a problem.

[00:11:46] So I think that's a great learning on this. Yeah.

[00:11:50] Naga S: [00:11:51] That makes sense. So, in terms of your journey, right? If I'm, if I'm drawing a parallel to what a creator does versus what you do, typically creators [00:12:00] go. Through this  creating content, distributing content, creating a community around the content.

[00:12:06] However, I think your journey is unique in the sense that you created the community and then you're creating content that caters to the community, whether it's the weekly newsletter, whether it is, how do you keep the community engaged by having these regions?

[00:12:20]Abhishek: [00:12:20] As of now, I think that's the,  system that I'm following wherein I'm using whatever content is being created in,  Slack to create my newsletter . But I would say that these  different stages  earlier I used to write a newsletter where the content would be.

[00:12:36] Fully created by me. So initially I will,  for any community to work out, you need to have a, and number of people, again can be a number between hundred and two 50, depending on, , how the early adopters are. So in, in my case, I started off with a newsletter wherein I, I used to just.

[00:12:59]Write down my experiences and  talk about the challenges that I faced or, the thoughts that I had,  over a period of time, I think,  it became a little narcissistic and I realized  I would burn out doing this and that's where the shift happened when I wanted to. Take this microphone that I had, and I wanted to give it now to the community and, , I wanted them to ask, , but again,  there's a time and place for this. I would say we can keep switching between content and community. You don't want to be a place where you're the only person holding the microphone.

[00:13:34] And. You also want to make sure that maybe, ,  the community feels that they also have a voice and they are being heard. Does that make sense?

[00:13:43] Naga S: [00:13:43] Yeah, absolutely. It makes a lot of sense, because like you said, when you're making a lot of the  content yourself, right.

[00:13:49]You're trying to bring about certain insights. You're trying to bring about so many things that may be there, or you could be imagining them. What you're doing is you're Meta curating the newsletter, right. From content that's already [00:14:00] there, that the community has already made that I'm sure makes people feel heard and , feel like they're recognized.

[00:14:06] I remember one of those weeks where I was one of the top contributors and I was like, Hey, it made me feel nice.   Seeing your name, they're feeling recognized and I'm sure that, , it's going in the right direction because I definitely felt good being there.

[00:14:18] That's something that I've specifically noticed in remote Indian,  I've been a part of communities in the past where all of the communities have always been focused on themselves. It's all about taking, however, remote Indian is a first place where people were so willing to give. And that is something that really in my mind set it apart from all of the other communities that have been a part of in the past,

[00:14:41] they're so willing to answer a question to hop on a call  really support each other. So what, what was it that you did apart from, having the ritual , incentivizing the good behaviors? Was there anything else that you did in order for the community to.

[00:14:54] Always be in this pay it paid forward kind of mindset.

[00:14:56]Abhishek: [00:14:56] I'm not sure what has worked to be honest, but I genuinely feel, , one of the good things which I did was having these lenghty phone conversations with some of the members the early members and stopped doing it because now there are so many people. Earlier, I used to just ping them , on Slack and just start a conversation.

[00:15:19] And then I would call them up. And in fact those were the places where it  solidified the first  pillars of the community.  A community cannot stand only on,  the shoulder of,  one person.

[00:15:34]So people  embody that spirit and. Then over a period of time.  They transferred that same spirit with, with other members. And that's how  spirit has been carried forward.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:48] Naga S: [00:15:49] In a lot of ways, it really just seems like a startup, right? Because your first few hires decide a lot about the way the culture of the organization is shaped. And it seems like it's similar in [00:16:00] community building as well, because what you've essentially done is that you've set the tone.

[00:16:03] You've set the context, you've set the values that you hold dear. And you've made sure that the , earlier adopters of the community are able to follow that. I know that those are the efforts that are now paying off as the community scales

[00:16:16] Abhishek: [00:16:17] In my case, I would say that there have been very, lucky breaks which have happened. And I'm, I'm grateful that, , I've come across people like you who have come into the community at the right moment and, share your knowledge.

[00:16:32] And that's how things have evolved.

[00:16:33] Naga S: [00:16:33] Well, one of the other things that I also wanted to get a thought, is  what are the things that  people should keep in mind when they're growing their community, maybe from like the first few members to the first 50 or a hundred.

[00:16:45] And then how does that evolve over time? Because I'm sure that, two years down the line,  your priorities are different than from where you started and they're going to be different. , as you grow,

[00:16:54] how do you see that transition? And what are the, different things that, you focused on till now? And what will you be focusing on in the future?

[00:17:00] Abhishek: [00:17:00] I think, ,  the, the most important thing for any person who is doing this from scratch would be to. The a hundred or two 50 people, that's the magic number, which of sorts where in the community actually feels like a community. Nobody wants to hang out in a ghost town. Right?   .

[00:17:17] Great part about building your own thing. You can make a lot of mistakes and just say that you learn from them. So if I had to do it again, I would definitely, , focus more on distribution. I would say if you are creating value, I think an example would help you in remote Indians case.

[00:17:35]One of the things that,  could have been done or,  , like it was done to some degree was curation of knowledge.  There's so much content being thrown around on the internet about remote work. So if I had to  really get my first hundred or,  get the attention of first a hundred to two 50 people, I would spend some time creating value.

[00:17:57]Curating this content. I think that's the [00:18:00] easiest way to spark, a conversation of sorts. And once you have those number of people, I think then the, the question is that if you , sometimes an audience makes sense. You can just, , keep it as a, as a newsletter of sorts.

[00:18:15] The important question is that   do you feel  the value of the project going to increase. If you activate all these nodes,  there are two 50 people now in your newsletter and let's say, , you give everybody a voice now, if they feel that, okay, now we also can participate in this process of creation.  That's the way to go about it.  I did it to some degree, but it took a really long time for me.

[00:18:37] I think it took me almost two years to get to 250 members. So that's something which  I would,  say is one of the key learning points, getting to your first 250 members very quickly.  , you can use Twitter,  Instagram, , any of the places where folks are already hanging.

[00:18:52]How things have changed. I feel that there's, there's this constant dance between being very personal.  Having these phone conversations  with specific members,  so you have to keep that element also there, but at the same time, you have to also think about scale.

[00:19:09]So there's this constant,  dance that any community manager has to do   you don't necessarily want to, take that personal element away, but at the same time, just to make sure that more people can find value, you have to start thinking in those elements. So that could mean instituting some systems that could mean,  identifying people who can run the community on your behalf, you don't necessarily need to be the only one who moderates the community.

[00:19:38]. You want to identify other leaders as well.  Iterations are the only way to, , figure it out what works and what doesn't and feel if you can do these small experiments.

[00:19:49]That helped me a lot.  I would maybe ship a small product and see whether it resonates with the community or not.  Do these zoom calls almost on a,  weekly basis. At the [00:20:00] end of the day it's it's consistency.  How consistent you are, how persistent you are with this.

[00:20:04] Naga S: [00:20:05] You said it's about bringing value to the community. And initially you brought value to the community by curating content around remote work. And right now I see value being driven to the community by the numerous  remote work opportunities that get posted on the sander, the ability to interact with experts and get that clarified, which could.

[00:20:25]In most other circumstances would be paid advice,  and people are only giving advice because it's that important in community. Now, the community members are deriving value. You've got  a critical mass of 250 people or a thousand people. How should. Community managers think about monetizing because in the start you mentioned that you've hit kind of  a target milestone of $500 of MRR.

[00:20:49] It is an interesting way of putting it, but  how did you think about monetization and, any thoughts in terms of how community managers should think about value and how that value can be translated into  monetary contribution for the community manager, especially for folks who want to do this for time, like you.

[00:21:07]Abhishek: [00:21:07] This is definitely the thing that I've struggled the most.  I've seen many people run, paid communities where. They would just have a paywall of sorts that if you want to join the Slack community, you have to pay this membership fee. I wasn't sure that, I could do that because I don't have that pedigree

[00:21:27]so that's one of the things that I realized, and I also,  read this book called gift economy. And there's the other, another one, which is big magic. So the big, I guess, learning that I've gotten, , from, from reading these two books is that creativity shouldn't be responsible for paying my bills.

[00:21:51]So now what I'm trying to do is using a donation based business model, and there are a couple of products which are,  my favorites. One [00:22:00] is Wikipedia and the other is Khan Academy. I think those two products have shown the way

[00:22:06]I am experimenting with this similar kind of model because for different people,  will find different utility out of it. Right. And secondly,  I want to keep it as open and accessible. For some members, they might not have the means right now, but they could use the community to improve their financial situation later on.

[00:22:28] They might, feel that social debt of sorts to support the community. That's the thesis of sorts. And recently I came across this Version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for a creator. This was shared by Le Jin. If she's the one who  coined, the term Passion Economy.

[00:22:47] So what she says is that the  first level is the fulfillment that you get from creating. That's where somebody has to start from.  You cannot start from monetization, for any creative project. So one has to,  Have that fulfillment, that should be the number one reason for creating anything.

[00:23:02]then you go on and build an audience or a community. And the third level is, which is basically,  Nirvana. So it's, this is monetization.  If we can crack that bit. I think you have reached the top level and it's definitely, a blessing, if you can get paid

[00:23:20] Still a long way to go, man. I feel this is, this is just a start. People are figuring out different ways and models and not one way can necessarily,  be considered the golden standard of sorts. So for me, I'm, going with this idea of the gift economy, I'm trying to put out work, I'm trying to,  share as much knowledge , make as many  connections as possible.

[00:23:46] The thesis is that people will find enough value to become patrons. And that's what has, happened. I now have  more than 40 patrons who are, supporting me. So there's no fixed amount that you have to pay it's depending on what they feel,  the [00:24:00] value that you're getting.

[00:24:00] It's a very interesting kind of a model. And I  I would like to,  double down on this.

[00:24:05]Naga S: [00:24:05] As we wrap up our episode for people who are listening in where can they join the Remote Indian community and get to see and experience the magic that you do that. And also , any closing thoughts.

[00:24:17]Abhishek: [00:24:17] I think people can go to the website, remote indian.com.

[00:24:21]That's the main landing page for the community. And once they sign up there, they will receive an invite to the Slack group. That's essentially the home of the remote Indian community right now. Closing thoughts would be that we are kind of living in an Renaissance era of sorts where, this is a Renaissance era for creators, and I'm quite excited to see, , the possibilities that more and more platforms are being built.

[00:24:50] It's essentially becoming easier to do this as a full-time thing. So I am quite curious and excited to,  see how the world, the, passionate economy or the creator economy evolves

[00:25:06] Naga S: [00:25:06] fantastic. I think you've shared some really great insights, basic things in terms of hiding that creators are curating. The first community need to keep in mind and also, , a lot of good input in terms of what worked for you and what didn't.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How has podcasting changed during the pandemic? We talk to a panel of international guests Mo (More Sibyl Podcast), Olivier (Awaken the Awesome), Bettina (NRI Woman) to pick their brains about listenership, how to win a sponsor, imposter syndrome and reflections on 2020 for these stellar podcasters in light of Covid-19.

 

Reach out to Mo (More Sibyl Podcast) -

Podcast - https://www.mosibyl.com/

IG - https://www.instagram.com/mosibyl/

e-mail - [email protected]

 

Reach out to Olivier (Awaken the Awesome) -

Podcast - https://awakentheawesome.podbean.com/

FB - https://www.facebook.com/awakentheawesome

e-mail - [email protected]

 

Reach out to Bettina (NRI Woman) -

Podcast - https://nriwoman.com/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/nri_woman

e-mail - [email protected]

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - [email protected]

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Olivier: [00:00:00] I think what worked for Joe Rogan is the community, not just from the fact that he brings a very, wide array of very interesting guests his approach, but what he really bank for him is a community.  So Spotify recognize that, and there's a huge potential, a huge community that came with that. And also the numbers showed it on YouTube. So I think the community is a very, is a very big aspect of it.

[00:00:19] Bettina T: [00:00:19] So what are my options? Is it sponsorship? Is it going to be you know, selling merchandise? Is it going to get consulting gigs? Is it about creating a new product? It's exclusively with my audience. Is it about creating a product with a sponsor that then fits with my audience? So there are so many different avenues that one can consider.

[00:00:36]And by sponsoring the podcast, they are reaching out to those women in a way that would be much more cost effective versus just advertising on say Facebook or Instagram or whatever.  So I think because of that you know, that niche definition of our audience there is an alignment for certain sponsors who are keen to come on the show.

[00:00:55] Mo: [00:00:55] It took me while can I get comfortable with asking people to chip into my passion [00:01:00] project? Because I felt that when I started, I wasn't putting a lot of effort into it and I felt like a, almost like a fraud asking them to put money

[00:01:08]Naga S: [00:01:08] hey everyone. Hello and welcome to a very, very special episode of the passionate people podcast. Today, we have Olivia Mo and Betina who are all fellow podcasters, and we're going to discuss about how podcasting has changed for them over the last eight to 10 months  because of COVID and what they're doing in terms of their monetization efforts.

[00:01:32]Let me again, take a moment to thank you for taking the time out. And I'm just so excited and so pumped to be having this conversation because we've all been part of our community of podcasters, and I'm really excited to know how things have been for you guys. So my first question at the start is that how has your listener numbers changed over the last eight to 10 months?

[00:01:56] And have you. Been running the show continuously, or [00:02:00] are you on a season break.

[00:02:01]Mo: [00:02:01] So my show usually takes a hiatus between December and April, and it was kind of a good opportunity for me to at least at least take that break without having to worry about putting my show on another break because of the virus. And so when April came around, I started really slow.

[00:02:19] Did something on mental health? Check-in I didn't want to get people on zoom and do like a live show cause everybody was doing live shows then. So, no, I haven't taken a break as far as listenership. Well, the numbers are in so good. Cause I use anchor, which is also another thing we can talk about. It's not really great for like tracking a lot of stuff, but I think that qualitatively, the engagement has been good.

[00:02:39] I felt like I made more deeper connections with, some of my top listeners this year. Which is always very important to me. I don't get too bogged down about, you know, how many thousand downloads you have or things like that, because anybody can just download. But I did listen in, I didn't engage in.

[00:02:53] So how I measure engagement is, you know, people commenting or sending me emails or letting me know, what they liked about a [00:03:00] particular episode or what they didn't like and things like that. So in that regard, I would say that my show has been fairly, quite successful this year, despite COVID.

[00:03:08]Bettina T: [00:03:08] Just going to say that it was a little bit different for us because we usually work in seasons. And so typically we do a run from March to June, July, and then another one from September to December. But this time when we were supposed to come out with our episodes in March and COVID happened entire production was delayed because for us, we produced,  it works quite well when the children are in school and that, you know, you get that little window because our podcast is slightly different.

[00:03:34] It's like a produced narrative style podcast. So it requires a decent amount of work. And when COVID happened and it started homeschooling and stuff, the entire production thing got shifted. So we actually launched our podcast, I think in October, instead of in sort of March, as, as we had planned initially the numbers definitely we saw a drop because we not consistent, but.

[00:03:58]In the period that [00:04:00] we were consistent the numbers are constantly rising. But the interesting thing is that too loud, the COVID period, despite not having you know, released any new episodes, we still have people come back and listen. We had new listeners coming across from different parts of the world.

[00:04:13] So we don't use anchor. We use a different podcast platform to host a podcast and we can actually track and see how many listens have come, how much they've listened, how much of the episode they've listened. And it's quite interesting. So it's roughly around 20 minutes. We usually get about 80% of listenership of the entire episode.

[00:04:34]Naga S: [00:04:34] That's industry like top of the industry,

[00:04:38] Bettina T: [00:04:38] is it?  It's probably because you know, it's, firstly it's produced. Secondly, it's just, it's like 20 minutes. So it's not 25 minutes. Just the whole episode is that much. And the last sort of three or four minutes, it's like the outro, which is, you know, the next episode and you know, thanking the team and those kinds of things.

[00:04:56] So, yeah. So pretty much. So we have a decent listenership. Yeah.

[00:05:00] [00:05:00] Naga S: [00:05:00] That's great. What about you, Olivier

[00:05:02] Olivier: [00:05:02] for me, actually, I have to say COVID was actually kind of interesting for me. It was actually a great opportunity because I don't run seasons. I basically, I'm kind of a guerrilla style. I try to run it through like, as on a weekly basis, I do a self-imposed break in the summer because you know, running a full-time job, a wife and two kids, I make this podcast happen.

[00:05:23] However I can. So, but I do have a very solid production calendar, but when COVID happens, Then I actually doubled down. Because I basically understood if I'm stuck at home, guests are stuck at home. So that opens up your calendar pretty much. Cause everybody had cancellations, people who had bookings and speaking engagement stuff, all that got canceled.

[00:05:40] So they're stuck at home. So that's where I doubled down and I pitched, I pitched like, Hey, can you record?  So in terms of booking guests, that was really helpful helped me out throughout the year in terms of listenership. It actually, I actually did notice a a slow uphill curve.

[00:05:54] Why? Because. I'm not sure if you guys noticed there's an explosion of podcast is going out right now. So a lot of people are [00:06:00] taking this time off to do a little bit, little bit more listening. And I've noticed people not only coming back for new episodes, but going back to old episodes as well.

[00:06:08] So compared to the same period last year we've seen the podcast grow about a good 20% and listenership. So that's a, that's a really good thing. I'm really proud of that.

[00:06:17]Naga S: [00:06:17] That's awesome. And I think that's the beauty of  making content that spans across the season, not to have like a bunch of content, right.

[00:06:24] Because once they discover you, they come back and listen to the entire catalog. If that's something that that's interesting. Right. And especially, you know, for the kind of shows that, that we all have. And I'm sure that this is a behavior that we'll see more and more as more people discover podcasts.

[00:06:40]Mo: [00:06:40] Definitely. I agree.

[00:06:42]Naga S: [00:06:42] It's good to know that, you know, all of you have got some amount of additional traction, whether in terms of engagement for more, in terms of, you know, new subscribers, new listeners the amount of. Oh, the the show that people are listing for Betina and for you, Olivia, that you have this 20% rise, I've [00:07:00] seen something similar for the Passion People Podcast as well.

[00:07:03] And for me, like the listener numbers are just directly correlated to how consistent I am. And I don't know if it's something really unique to our show, but I never hear from anyone. But once in a while, I just listen to someone and they're like, I'm a huge fan of your show. And I left you a rating. I left you a review.

[00:07:22] It just that, you know, I'm coming back to you now. So for me, engagement is something that I've always struggled with. And you know, that that's something that I'm interested to know. What do you folks specifically do in terms of spurring engagement, audience outreach, or how do you guys look at it and how are you guys planning about it?

[00:07:40]Olivier: [00:07:40] For this much for this one, the thing is you're not alone because that's the thing the consistency is there and I am, producing more episodes. The downloads are there. It's not that those, those numbers that I'm looking at just like Mo because I would like a little bit more feedback and that's one thing as well.

[00:07:54]Because that's the thing. A lot of people that are commenting, contact me directly via an email or something. But in terms [00:08:00] of, you know, dropping a review on iTunes or leaving a little rating and stuff, I don't get that much. Whether on the social medias as well from time to time, you'll hear someone saying like, Hey, I just love that episode.

[00:08:09] That happened like two years ago. Oh, that's always fun. But that is something I'm really trying to develop. Though the methods I do try is actually a, you know, just dropping an open-ended conversation. Now, what do you guys think is like, you know, go back to this episode, this episode I just posted what did you think about this conversation?

[00:08:24] You try to spread that, but sometimes people are, I'm not sure shy or, you know, the attention span is not there to actually leave an actual open up a conversation, but I really am still getting, I do hear you. 

[00:08:34] Naga S: [00:08:34] Got it. So Mo, what are you doing differently that you're hearing so much from your listeners?

[00:08:39] Mo: [00:08:39] Well, I don't know if it's differently as much as just, you know, going with the flow. So let me just put a little bit of a template so you can understand where I'm coming from. I have a full-time life and my podcast it's evolved from a hobby to more like a pet project. And I wish that if I did my job, the way I ran my podcast, I would not probably be very [00:09:00] successful.

[00:09:00] But there's a reason why I keep my podcasts, you know, I just do what I can do. I not stress too much about it because I'm not able to put all the time that I can put into it, just because, I have a full time job and all that kind of stuff. So that said, I really try to do things as best as we can do them.

[00:09:16] So, because my show is for blacks, Asians, and those, all of them, that's pretty much most people. So the people I get on the show, as far as the stories and all that, they're very diverse. So, and I try to like group stories together. So we had a mental health. Month we had when the news of the police brutality broke in Nigeria, I covered that.

[00:09:34] I got one of the protestors on there and that gave a lot of,  Attraction people commented and let me know. Thanks for that.

[00:09:40] Took my podcast away from my personal page and I created one for the podcast itself. And so they're in our post only podcast content. And that has really helped

[00:09:48] and so I tried to like repurpose, like audio clips and do things like that. And I also had a virtual assistant to help with that. So it's still very early. It's kinda like. Talk about the [00:10:00] gains, like how monumental that has been. But I see that, you know, people that werent following my page before us, when it was just my personal page, I see more engagement on  my podcast to that.

[00:10:10] So yeah, those are the two things  I've done try to do work with like historical events that things are happening. I mean, countries that are important to me and to my listenership and also hiring a VA and creating a big specific for my podcast on Instagram.

[00:10:27]Naga S: [00:10:27] I think that's really important to have that segregation, right.

[00:10:30] Whether it's on any kind of social media. Bettina, what do you guys do for engagement and how have things been?

[00:10:37] Bettina T: [00:10:37] Yeah, I think I have to agree with you Naga that one of the things where we saw the most engagement was when we were very consistent with our podcasts and that was until last year.

[00:10:47] But having said that, even though we will not. We were not coming out with episodes we've been engaging with the listeners through Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the social media channels, sometimes reposting previous episodes, or really [00:11:00] just updating listeners about what is happening in our own lives in some way.

[00:11:04] And one of the things that we did, which we do usually even for other episodes, Is every time it comes out, you put whichever and it'll adjust to fit on all the social media platforms, as well as on the WhatsApp groups, that both Ninorah and me are (co-host) part of, you know, we are part of these moms groups and all kinds of different things.

[00:11:20] And often  nobody responds to it, but the strange thing is. So we just finished our season now. And the last episode, then you shared the most recent episode. There was like a flood of messages we must have got, like between us at least 15-20 messages saying, you know, we really love the work you're doing.

[00:11:35] Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. And it's really bizarre because we've been doing it for like three months. And nobody responds and says anything. So one doesn't really know. What we concluded from that is that even if you don't really get that kind of engagement back from people on your social media platform, that doesn't mean that people are not listening and watching you, they may just not react in that moment.

[00:11:54] So the key is to just kind of share, don't be shy. You know, sometimes one can be a bit hesitant [00:12:00] about, or this is like a moms group or whatever. I mean, of course it has to be a target. And like, in our case, it's you know, a women. I focus with sharing women's stories, specifically women from Indian culture and background.

[00:12:12] So those kinds of groups we share them, and this is exactly what happened. We were quite chuffed by the end of it saying that, it's good. Cause otherwise it kind of feels that you're doing this stuff in isolation. If you don't have that engagement or feedback from your listeners unlike you Naga, we don't get it on our social media platforms.

[00:12:27] It's only on a one-to-one when I meet with people, sometimes they say, Oh, listen, you know, I really love the podcast. And it's so engaging. And you know, you guys are doing such amazing work and this random thing, maybe it was just the end of the year. And we wished everybody have a wonderful year or whatever, but, you know, we got a lot of feedback.

[00:12:43]Mo: [00:12:43] I just want to add a little bit too a bit  if that's okay. Cause I also put myself at an issue as a listener, even though I'm a podcast creator, I have listened to a lot of amazing episodes that I, I feel like there's a separate bond that comes when you are consuming someone else's podcast

[00:12:58]Sometimes I want to stay in the shadows. [00:13:00] Because I feel like having to like reach out to the list to the creator, kind of break something depending on just what I've listened to. So I think putting ourselves sometimes in the shoes of the listener can really help people and help you understand that people may be listening to minor, which are not because they don't like your podcast.

[00:13:17] What would it still haven't gotten to that point where they feel like bold enough to let you know, Hey, I listened to your stuff. Thanks for doing that. And just keep up the good work. So yeah, that kind of humbles me sometimes. No cause I don't, I know which out to all the podcasts that I listened to it just because I feel like I haven't gotten enough confidence.

[00:13:33] We have pushed them to really know that, Hey, I'm a huge fan of your work.

[00:13:36]Naga S: [00:13:36] That's a really interesting way to think about it Mo. And it's so important, right? Because if we're all listening to like 10 or 15 podcasts between us, like you said, we won't be reaching out to all of them.

[00:13:47] Maybe we'll only be reaching out to a couple of them, but just coming back to Bettina's point about, they might be listening to watching you. It's just that they're not engaging with. I think that's something that I'm just going to write down. [00:14:00] And keep looking back to it whenever I feel like I'm not really getting that feedback because I think it's just a matter of time until that, that moment that happened with you know, with NRI woman where like, they got like 15, 20 messages all at once, right.

[00:14:13] Because it's this step to releasing. So that strikes a chord with the folks that you're sharing your episode with. And, you know, from that on, things are going to move forward is what, what I would say. So we've spoken about podcast growth has spoken about engagement, and I think now is a good time to talk about monetization right now.

[00:14:33]COVID has been extremely difficult for all people, ? In terms of job losses, in terms of whatever it is and podcasting in general I know it's not really like you know, as more lucrative or Well as monetizeable it as YouTube, but I would love to hear all of your thoughts in terms of whether you're currently monetizing a podcast.

[00:14:54]

[00:14:54] And if you are then how, if you're not, then it's [00:15:00] monetization on your roadmap again. Yes. No. Why not?

[00:15:04]Mo: [00:15:04] It took me while can I get comfortable with asking people to chip into my passion project? Because I felt that when I started, I wasn't putting a lot of effort into it and I felt like a, almost like a fraud asking them to put money into, but as time went on and I realized that this was a really good quality stuff and I had a love and I had a couple of my top listeners letting me know, Hey, you know, you could set up a patreon and you can totally Get more money for this and that.

[00:15:31] And also bring, say, I bring in people who need it, you know, to raise funds for health issues and all that kind of stuff. So I started with pitching. And I got like, I think three pitchers, but it wasn't a lot coming from then, but that really meant a lot to me that three people would, you know, take a little bit of out of their monthly salary to like fund this passion project of mine and Darien I've also raised some, like, you know maybe like a goal towards like helping people get back on the particular was a lady that needed to give up or, you know, [00:16:00] psychotic medications for schizophrenia.

[00:16:02] And that was quite, you know Very very effective because it was just a one and inoperable chiptune. I've also done some consulting gigs on the side and I have our core set up to also get money from there, but I haven't been very aggressive with asking people for money. Cause I also have a blog where it's subscriber base and that has really, you know, brought in some chump change, but overall I still, I know that the other things I could do, like maybe say merchandise great to like premium content.

[00:16:36] I don't think I've had just the time to like sit down and map everything out. But recently I put my media kit together. I signed up for podcorn. And hopefully I can start engaging some sponsors and another thing I have done was to do like some mid-rolls and open roles when I I suppose I shipped through corresponds and you know, that person some money, but it was just like, you know, like two or three [00:17:00] opportunities that came from, and that certainly options too many times, but I feel like it's always, almost.

[00:17:05] Consumer to commensurate to the effort you put in. And I think that's what has been the source of my hesitation for so long because of my full-time job and all that kind of stuff. I, I don't want to ask people for money when I'm not really showing up and by showing up, I mean, like, you know I hadn't, I hadn't gotten that out as, at that point to the confidence level that I needed to really tell people, Hey, this has been your stuff you're listening to.

[00:17:28] How about chipping into it? Yeah, got

[00:17:31] Olivier: [00:17:31] it. Totally a courageous thing you're doing wrong because you know, it's important to not acknowledge the work that you have done, but also bring, because if you're not the biggest cheerleader for your product and your content, you know, people are not going to buy into you anyway, but it's good that, you know, you're basically testing the waters and to see there are different avenues, but good on you there.

[00:17:49]Bettina T: [00:17:49] Yeah. So I'm just going to add to what you know, more sad was basically definitely it's directly related to the effort that one puts in into finding sort of sponsors and wanting to [00:18:00] monetize it. I mean, podcasting as a medium is. So in itself is not particularly easy to monetize unless one is committed to it like a full-time job almost.

[00:18:09] So we did a couple of different things. So when we started off the podcast, I mean, we did want to monetize it, but people also like, listen, we have to establish our product. And I think it's a little bit of like what most said, right? Is it was not about going and asking for money if you want shorter about how people are going to receive it.

[00:18:23] But once people kind of show it about the product itself, the first thing that we did to monetize was actually created some of our own products. And again, even not very ambitious, we to cover our costs. And that was our objective, which was met. But this year we had that was the other interesting thing about COVID because when the whole dynamic of, you know, people working from home and all those kinds of things change just  the sponsors themselves.

[00:18:49] So the advertisers were looking for newer opportunities and ways to reach out to their audience because they wanted to try something different. So we ended up getting a sponsor for our episodes. So [00:19:00] he didn't go for the whole season, but they did take a few episodes. And it's interesting because now we actually have data of how that kind of worked out and it lets us put a better package together when we were pitching to other sponsors.

[00:19:10] So, because we had one sponsor on board, we have somebody else who's interested for the next season already.

[00:19:16] There's, it's a little bit interesting because the thing is the audience that we're talking to. And I think that's an important thing to remember

[00:19:21] our audience is a very niche audience.  It's women of Indian origin. So the kind of sponsors that are kind of lining up to us, it's not your generic larger brands like L'Oreal or Dove. For example, the response that we had was a jewelry company based out of India who was targeting these very specific women.

[00:19:39] And by sponsoring the podcast, they are reaching out to those women in a way that would be much more cost effective versus just advertising on say Facebook or Instagram or whatever.  So I think because of that you know, that niche definition of our audience there is an alignment for certain sponsors who are keen to come on the show.

[00:19:58]Naga S: [00:19:58] Is that that's a, that's a [00:20:00] fantastic point that you just made Bettina about audience overlap, right? What is the audience overlap between your sponsor and. You got an audience and the more that overlap is, then that's correlates to like a direct increase in ROI for your sponsor, because they're just reaching the target audience that they want.

[00:20:19] And it also ties back to what theme of your show? Why are you talking about what you're talking and is it specific or is it general? Right? Because if it's too general, Then no one is going to come and want to do anything like this because you know, you don't really have like a demographic or a target audience that you cater to.

[00:20:36] And that over lap  with the audience that the sponsor's looking to tap into. That's the beauty of having like a specific or a niche audience. And that's one of the big reasons why I made sure that for season three of the Passion people, podcasts that we're talking about, the creative economy, we're talking about, you know, how content creators and other patient pronounced that monetizing in the context of COVID because then my audience now is overlapping with the other companies who [00:21:00] are trying to sell creator tools who are trying to sell, you know, abilities for these kinds of folks to monetize.

[00:21:07]Olivier: [00:21:07] Good point. Just that it just like totally sparked what Bettina said in regards to the importance for any people listening to us who are considering the marketing and like taking on sponsor aspect, you have to know your audience. So that way you're better positioned to actually pitch, you know, your show to a potential sponsor.

[00:21:22] And you have to make sure  that your sponsor, you know, responds to your listeners needs. Okay. Cause nobody wants to end up with a toothpaste commercial on their podcast. You know, cause that's the thing when you get, when you get on the podcasting hosts you know sponsorship platforms or ad platforms, sometimes you might be surprised, unfortunately, because I have been listening to some podcasts who out of nowhere, you know, take on, you know, the, the ad platform.

[00:21:45] And then you realize, what does this ad have to do with the show I'm listening to, and it totally basically alienates your listeners. And that's that, that was just something that came up in my head when Bettina was talking about how the sponsors would directly, you know, in correlation with [00:22:00] her listenership, which is, I believe is a very important thing.

[00:22:02]Naga S: [00:22:02] Absolutely. Olivier, you wanna share some of your insights into how you're monetizing and or what you're thinking about it 

[00:22:09] Olivier: [00:22:09] currently, I've just like, I've been on the fence about, you know, the next the next step towards monetizing the podcast. So far I haven't been monetizing it at all, but what COVID has done is actually helped me cause you know, you always try to do better try to learn the best tactics and you know how to actually, you know, make the podcast grow.

[00:22:24]I'm not even looking at options for merchandise. I've been testing a shoe. Products and just to see, okay, what,  the pros and the cons of doing that and how to set that up. So I've been doing that internally, I'm still in that process, but one thing that has worked for me, because again, you just look at the landscape and see what's happening.

[00:22:39] A lot of people have been reaching out to me in regards to consulting. Because as we've seen, there's an explosion of podcasting right now to listen to people who just want to start a podcast  is amazing. So a lot of people are reaching out in regards to, you know, okay, how do I start a podcast?

[00:22:54] What is a podcast host? How does this happen? So of course, You know, people can be looking at [00:23:00] options of, you know, putting out, you know, either doing some consulting or doing some online classes, something I'm looking to do. Also something as, you know, we are communicators. We are, you know, working with our voice.

[00:23:10] So I'm also looking at, doing some voiceover gigs. That's always a really fun thing. Cause you know, this is basically the second radio. And I am looking at sponsors so far. I haven't really found anything that  seduces me. But again, it's all about putting in the work.

[00:23:23]Like Mo I have a full-time job, you know, with the two kids and everything. So the days are really long. And sometimes, you know, you do want to kick yourself in the back of like, you know, saying that, you know, okay. The sticks would probably be a lot farther if you putting in the work. But these are different avenues that, you know, people can explore, you know, taking on sponsors, putting up a patient program, selling merchandise, or try to do side gigs,  just like voiceover work or, even lending your voice to reading an audio book,  different avenues people can try, but these are all things I'm exploring as well.

[00:23:50]Naga S: [00:23:50] I just want to go back to both the, the point that you and Mo made about being on the fence because you feel like you're not doing this as a full-time job. Right. Do you think that is something [00:24:00] that's holding you back or do you think it's a mindset? Or do you think it's the effort because I want to call out both of you and say that it's not a thing,

[00:24:10] it's just because you're not doing something at a full-time job  doesn't mean that you can't ask people for money. Because I believe that every minute of content that all of our podcasts puts out is what is keeping so many people sane, because  let's look around and see what are we all doing?

[00:24:27] During COVID, we're consuming content. We're watching videos, we're watching movies, you're listening to podcasts, which are made by people like us. And that's  keeping us sane. That's what is keeping us going. Right. And I think it's absolutely within our right to ask our listeners for a donation, ask our listeners  for merchandise merchandising or something that's done reasonably okay.

[00:24:47] For me. And what I've realized is that people want to want to pay. And buy merchandise for the podcast, not just because they're listening to the show, but they also like the feeling that they're supporting a cause [00:25:00] that they like the idea of someone who runs a podcast. They like to support people who are doing interesting and cool things and they're okay to pay something that's like two X, three X, more expensive than like a regular t-shirt or a regular hoodie, because it's a passion people, podcasts hoodie, passionate people podcast t-shirt because.

[00:25:16]That is a sentiment attached to it. And the sentiment is that I like the show and I want to support it. And I am also getting something in return.

[00:25:23]Mo: [00:25:23] I mean, well, I was j ust chuckling when you said that. I agree with it.

[00:25:28]Because I tend to be very high strung about things and. tend to always want to give a hundred percent to everything I do. I don't want my podcast. I haven't given quite a hundred percent and I think that's where the cautious does comes from. And I do agree with you that a little, what goes into podcast.

[00:25:42]When I spoke to a mentor about that, it was after talking to them that this Edison thing he did was while I was able to set up a picture and was like, no, you are creating like people that want to consume your content.

[00:25:55] I think another point to be made here is that podcasting as a medium has a very low. Barrier to [00:26:00] entry. And so the commonplace nature of it kind of makes it feel, I think a little bit weird for people like me to want to charge for anything.

[00:26:07] But then if you know, Joe Rogan is getting a million-dollar deal from Spotify and every kind of underdog there, you know, and to like, you know, make a little piece of that Apple pie while just, you know charge for what you're doing. So I'm slowly changing my mindset about it, but I know it's going to take awhile to be.

[00:26:22]Naga S: [00:26:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:24]Olivier: [00:26:24] It's the fear. It's the imposter syndrome. It's the in process in gem within you? That also rested with because I've been doing this thing for the past three years now, and sometimes, you know, we're talking about the long hours time away from your family.

[00:26:34] You're talking about, you know, putting the kids to sleep and then going to editing and all that stuff. And it's not just. It's not just the fact that, you know, we're giving away our time if we can't get back, but we are putting out quality content that people, the numbers show it, that people resonate with and want to keep, supporting.

[00:26:49] And at some point you have to tell yourself, what is that worth to you? And it's not even, you can't put a monetary value on your time, but. When people are legitimately [00:27:00] from just talking about my own case, the most recent email I got, I know definitely the person said, you know, they wanted to, you know, some consulting and helping and launched our podcast.

[00:27:07] I'm like, okay. For this one time, after a lot of people in my close circle telling me like, you know what? You should elevate your game, you should charge for your services. I'm like, okay. So I reached out to this person, I say, yeah. Okay. I'm totally happy with helping you out, but just know that there are fees for my services and then, and crickets,

[00:27:23] and you know what? I was okay with it because there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting out footing, you know, a value in regards to you, if your work has worth, if you want to reach out to me, You recognizing that I have a skill that would be beneficial to you. There's it's totally okay for me to want to be compensated because of it.

[00:27:40] And I think it's this discomfort that we have in regards to  what right do I have to ask to be compensated for my work? Hey, you know what, at a wedding, the cake maker gets paid. The dress maker gets paid. The caterer gets paid. You know what, if you want my time to help you out to launch a podcast properly and efficiently, There isn't, there is a [00:28:00] cost associated to that and you know, you need to get easy with that.

[00:28:03] But thank you for calling me out on that Naga

[00:28:05]Naga S: [00:28:05] So Bettina how did, you folks go through this journey of  monetization and landing the sponsor?  We would be really keen. To know how you got the sponsor on board. What kind of analytics you shared with them?

[00:28:18] And like what kind of ROI is that they saw and how were you able to measure that?

[00:28:23]Bettina T: [00:28:23] Okay. So the thing is, in terms of the sponsor, what we did was upfront on our website. And I mean, this is something that, you know, we always recommend to people who want to do a podcast is to have a dedicated website for your podcast, because it's a great way for people to engage.

[00:28:39] With your content outside of sort of the hosting platforms and stuff. And also it's a great field for you to be able to track how many people are coming how much time they're actually spending in addition to really just just to the podcast metrics itself. So for us, the sponsor reached out to us because they were looking for a different platform to engage with.

[00:28:58]They were interested in, [00:29:00] Exploring podcasts. And they will looking for, non-resident NRI women across the world. So we kind of just fit the thing and all the information about our sponsorship was on the website available for them. So they knew exactly what. You know what our numbers were, how much we charge per episode, what they're going to get.

[00:29:19] And so they were comfortable with it. And so they reached out to us and that's how we actually got the first sponsor, not by actually reaching out. And I honestly, I feel that if we had to reach out to people. Earlier we would have got a sponsor much sooner, but we've learned from it now in terms of the metrics that we shared with them, we shared with them exactly the same things.

[00:29:38] The number of downloads per episode you know, the engagement rates in terms of how much they're listening. We are nowhere close to the industry standards of, you know, 5,000 or whatever per episode. But it doesn't matter because we are, again, going back to our earlier point, it's a niche audience.

[00:29:53]  And we are focused on who we're targeting. And if that matches with the sponsor. Then it [00:30:00] works out really well for them because one of the good things about podcasting, as well as that you have, it's not like once it's the podcast is aired, that's it. Right? You, you have other lessons, you have new people coming back and discovering the podcast.

[00:30:12]Yeah. And, and, and your ad then is pretty much for as long as the podcast is available to be listened to it's there in perpetuity almost. So you have so, so that is one of the things that we highlighted to the sponsor themselves. And before they actually got on board, they wanted to, you know, do a little metric in terms of engagement, just with audience on social media.

[00:30:34] So we were hesitant at first when they said, why not? You know, let's just see what happens. And we were quite surprised cause we got, we got about a 10% engagement rate on. On the survey they did, but the actual content that they put out in terms of their ads and stuff, didn't see the same kind of thing.

[00:30:49] But you know, that that can be quite vague because you don't know what resonates, it's a jewelry piece. It may resonate with Amy, not resonate with B. So it's, it's difficult to judge that, but [00:31:00] overall, they were able to get just from the initial engagement itself, they were able to get certain email addresses you know, people's information.

[00:31:07] So which worked out well for them in that sense.

[00:31:10]Mo: [00:31:10] And I think I want to also add to what, but you're not just say that's okay. Is that issue of how little sponsors sintering bogged down by the numbers, to determine if it's, what's invested in your platform, as you know, one of your potential sponsors of a saw like me that cause I used to host my podcast solely on Squarespace, which was my host for my website.

[00:31:31] And then I. Transition to Encore, I think about two years ago and, you know, encore has gone through a lot of stuff and they just were trying to go IAB certified, but it's not really being the best platform out there because if something is free, guess who's paying for it. So as a matter of fact, because of that, I think I, I kinda lost my ability to like track the downloads and all that.

[00:31:53] Cause I've switched out on a lot of stuff as well. So I think losing out on that ability to have that [00:32:00] continued Tracking of your listenership and the download rates. I think also excludes. Potentially, you know, sponsors who seem to be very big on, you know, how many dollars was the CPM and all that kind of stuff.

[00:32:14] And so I think that's why it's taking me a little bit of time to be able to approach sponsors directly.

[00:32:18] So, yeah, that's another challenge that I should mention.

[00:32:22]Naga S: [00:32:22] The reason it is like that Mo is because. What we fall under the broad category of is digital marketing, right? And when we talk about digital marketing, what comes to people's mind is like Google and Facebook, which gives  a hundred page analytics report to say that these many people viewed your ad.

[00:32:37] This many people clicked on your ad. This many people went to your website and here we are, we are not able to give them the same kind of visibility. Right. And that's the reason that I was asking, but you know, the questions that I did because it's interesting to know what is working. And my the sponsors coming to a particular show.

[00:32:55]Bettina T: [00:32:55] If I can just interrupt, I just want to add to something that you know, that you [00:33:00] said for the listeners. One of the, things that one can actually do, right? Because when you, when you talk about Facebook and Google analytics and all of the hundred thousands of pages of results, and, you know, the quotes that they actually generate that is the expectation of the large sort of multinational at the bigger companies.

[00:33:15] But there are a big chunk in the middle of which is your small and medium enterprises or, you know, little mom and pop shops or whatever who wants to get onto it. The podcast is a great affordable way for them to do it and their expectations when it comes to the ROI or the analytics is far lower. Because we honestly, we were not able to provide our sponsor, the exact ROI or the metrics  but,  we were able to provide him with exactly the same data after compared to.

[00:33:42] You know, like before, like this was the number of downloads and their address at  at the top of the episode. So it's very likely that the person has listened to it. You know, if it comes at the end of the episode, maybe people drop off, but a hundred percent, if you've had like, Oh, you know, like a thousand listeners of 500 [00:34:00] listeners, you know, that all 500 have listened to the sponsor's ad because it's come at the top.

[00:34:04] So one of the things to consider also is not to really look at your larger. Multinationals, but look at the middle bands. if you know that a large chunk of your listeners are coming from a particular area, maybe consider targeting or reaching out to a sponsor who is from that area, who might be interested in teaching, so to me, all the data that you have at matches the consideration set of your sponsor and their expectations is going to be completely different.

[00:34:26] So you can take some of the pressure off about not being able to provide those kinds of metrics. 

[00:34:30]Naga S: [00:34:30] You have actually made my job easier, but never because my next and final question, as we wrap up the show was.

[00:34:38] Is sponsorship or advertising really the best mode of monetization of a medium like podcasts, or do you folks think that there's any other way, do you think direct donation or Patreon or subscription models are more in tune with what works for podcasts?

[00:34:53] And whether that is a, like a one size fits all answer or does it really doesn't really change from one podcast to another [00:35:00] podcast. And does it really change in terms of the size of the audience size of yours? Sponsored like very rightly pointed out,

[00:35:06] Bettina T: [00:35:06] I think the first thing is to really ask why he wants to monetize.

[00:35:10]All of us has this thing at the back of our mind that we want to monetize it. And like I said earlier for just for ourselves, we want ambitious, we wanted to monetize it to cover costs. And if that is the benchmark. You don't want me to do just that much? So one has to look at it. If it is, if the idea is to actually build another stream of income, then one has to look at it that way.

[00:35:32] Okay. So what are my options? Is it sponsorship? Is it going to be you know, selling merchandise? Is it going to get consulting gigs? Is it about creating a new product? It's exclusively with my audience. Is it about creating a product with a sponsor that then fits with my audience? So there are so many different avenues that one can consider.

[00:35:49] So the first thing is to I would say, and this is, this is what we've been talking amongst ourselves as well. Why do we really want to do it? The first thing is we enjoyed into podcasts. So I, [00:36:00] you know, even if you'd been, we didn't make the money. We were, we still continued doing it in a, sponsoring it from our own pockets, but we reached a point where we feel we're creating good, good content.

[00:36:10] And like you said, when you create good content, you have the right to ask people to pay for it. I'm not sure that money's going to come from the listeners you know Personally, we're not big fans of sort of Patreon or you know, those kinds of platforms, but definitely sponsorships is one way, again, it's not going to make you big money, but if you look at the other aspects where you, if you can create niche products that you can sell to your listeners, if you can tie up with other companies that again, produce certain products or whether it's merchandising or those kinds of things, I think you'll have a better opportunity of earning more.

[00:36:46] That's that's our point of view.

[00:36:47]Mo: [00:36:47] I do wish said about knowing your why's and I think Knowing, I mean, going at it naturally and using your style, like when I sat my podcast, I never thought I could ever do like live shows or do like video [00:37:00] engagements or even like start doing a consulting gigs and teaching people how to podcast.

[00:37:04] But those. Things came as I slowly acquired more confidence and more competence of what I'm doing. And I know that I've only just started. Eventually I think I'm going to come at a points where I can really engage those that I know are really very important. And what I mean, put them, I mean, like, like my top listeners, they give them that space to show like, They have like some stake hold on on the show as well.

[00:37:26] And they feel like it's part of this. So, yes. I don't think there's a one size fit all, I think commanded as, as best as you can, but slowly make sure that you're not just stuck in whatever field you started with keep going from it and engaging with podcasts, other podcasters. See what has worked because what works for people might not work for you.

[00:37:44] And then, then you get to that point where you feel like, okay, I think I'm good. And you know, I can make this my default option for monetization.

[00:37:51]Olivier: [00:37:51] That was it really good points? What I want to stress is for me, basically, I think it's never one size fits all and there's no [00:38:00] specific formula. Every podcast is different, which means every audience listener is different. I think for me, yeah if you want to, we'll always want to take the unicorn example of Joe Rogan.

[00:38:09] I think what worked for Joe Rogan is the community, not just from the fact that he brings a very, wide array of very interesting guests his approach, but what he really bank for him is a community. Cause he came from the comedy background. He came from the TV background and he came from the UFC background.

[00:38:25] So you have all those people actually tuning in to actually also tune into stuff that he has to say and not just the wonderful guests that he has on. So Spotify recognize that, and there's a huge potential, a huge community that came with that. And also the numbers showed it on YouTube. So I think the community is a very, is a very big aspect of it.

[00:38:41] Like you said, basically, the people coming into your show, coming in to listen to your show and tuning into your show are the people who are going to be there for you. And as we know, it's a hell of a lot easier to cater to the current listeners or customers, if you will, that you have now, as it is to actually acquire new customers, which is always fun.

[00:38:57] But it's a lot harder. So as long as you have a [00:39:00] clear definition of what it is, you want to bring as value to the listeners, you have a, they can carry you pretty far. And that we all know that, you know, these people want to invest into us. And as long as we know how to directly speak to them and we keep bringing them this value, this genuine sense of service that we think they deserve.

[00:39:17] I think you know,  it's not just about the money, but it could be worthwhile. But for me, I think it's not just sponsorships. For me, I think it's one, podcasting is one Avenue you can take actually, you know, broaden your horizon in terms of communication skills.

[00:39:30]Mo: [00:39:30] That's a very key point.

[00:39:31] You just created about community. I think a lot of us, eventually we forget why we started podcasting. I think it goes back to what also Bettina said earlier, like learn your wise. Like, I really enjoy people. I lost our storytelling. I like, you know, showcasing processes and I think focus going back to my community.

[00:39:49] Through qualitative engagements that I get, I think that gives me the most fulfillment. And I know that as time goes on, I'll be able to define what my fan base looks like, because right now within it feels so diffused as I don't have that problem with [00:40:00] podcasting. If you don't have like a Facebook group or like a discord channel, it's hard for you to really find out, you know, what's, that was that gathering hole where people can gather, and then you can, you know, And give you a demo and see what's working, get a pause and the bit of the community.

[00:40:14] So I think being able to like clarify that, I think also use the strength of your your platform and that can also make it very easy or relatively easier pathway towards one physician. And then for that reminder, Bertina and Olivia.

[00:40:28]Naga S: [00:40:28] So folks, as we, as we conclude, we've had like a phenomenal discussion in terms of engagement. We've spoken about how our podcasts have grown. We spoken about monetization and all of your various thoughts on it. My favorite bits. But obviously from the fact where you said that, you know, it's not a one size fits all solution.

[00:40:48] That's something that I absolutely agree. I also like that back and forth between all of us about, the imposter syndrome, whether we should charge for content, whether we shouldn't charge for content. And the insight that [00:41:00] Betina gave about. What is, or is the size and the analytics expectations of your customers.

[00:41:07] And, maybe you just talk to the smaller customers and you can still cater to them. I think that was a phenomenal insight. So thank you guys for taking the time and you know, for being on the passionate people podcast and talking about your podcasting journey and monetization journey during COVID.

 

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In conversation with Pete who is Founder and CEO of Ampjar, a karmic advertising community that helps small brands to acquire customers through a fast and simple exchange of shout outs. We discuss the evolution of marketing, the similarities of SMB Online Retail and the Creator Economy and what creators can do today to amplify their reach and genuinely reach out to their target audience in a way that reflects their personal brand.

 

Prior to running Ampjar, Pete ran a social and digital media agency which worked with household name brands in 6 countries. Pete sold the business to Private Equity in 2017.

 

Reach out to Peter -

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjamesdavis/

AmpJar - ampjar.com/lets-grow

e-mail - [email protected]

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

email - [email protected]

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/

 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Pete: [00:00:00] these small businesses have all these platforms that they're meant to be using like Facebook advertising, like SEO, like Google advertising.

[00:00:10] And they just don't have the bandwidth to learn how to, how to use it  because they just have so many other things that they're doing in their business.

[00:00:17]But the way that we see it is that this is a movement in our minds towards giving the control back to the brands. So giving them more autonomy to control how they advertise, because essentially what we're trying to do is create a third model

[00:00:33]. So I'm the founder and CEO of a company called amp jar. I'm actually based down in Melbourne Australia right now. So we're actually a us company, but I live down here. It's home. So it's a good place to kind of shelter while all this COVID things going on. And yeah, Ampjar is a community of brands that shout each other out through various channels to help each other grow.

[00:00:56] So we have hundreds of brands all over the U S [00:01:00] Canada, Australia. New Zealand is our focus markets at the moment. Yeah, they shout each other out through social or emails or  post  checkout on their website. And the whole intent of it really is these small brands have incredible relationships with their customers relationships that are just stronger than I've ever seen anywhere before in marketing.

[00:01:19] And what we're trying to do is help these brands. Team up work together so that customer acquisition is something that they can do together rather than having to go to platforms like Facebook or Google to get that amplification and to meet new customers.

[00:01:32]Naga S: [00:01:32] And ideally what is the size of these businesses and what, what are they into.

[00:01:36] Pete: [00:01:36] Yeah. So typically the main type of customer for us is a smaller business. So someone who maybe has. Four five, six employees is kind of core to us. And sometimes we have people who are just on their own. Sometimes we have people who have 20 employees, but maybe core is that small team with a handful of people.

[00:01:55]And more often than not, they are what we call [00:02:00] independent retail. So someone who has a product. They're not dropshippers, you know, they, they have their own product. They have their own social channels. They sell a product through a website, like a Shopify style website they're really authentic businesses.

[00:02:14] Naga S: [00:02:14] Got it. And what, what would drive the decision of these businesses to you know, choose to come to Ampjar as against traditional modes of marketing?

[00:02:23] Pete: [00:02:23] Yeah, absolutely. So my background was, was marketing. So I, before doing this, I ran a marketing agency. So we run it down here in Melbourne. We built it to having 20 staff and we worked in six countries , we worked with some incredible brands  I would say that there was a time in there where I was the expert.

[00:02:41] I was the go-to. If you wanted to know anything about Facebook ads or Google ads or how to use this channel or that channel, I was the go-to come to me and talk to me about it. And then as you know, when you build a business, you grow it over time and you get to a point where you do more of the management, less of the hands-on dirty work.

[00:02:59] And [00:03:00] it quickly became a fact that I didn't. Have the expertise, I wasn't the go-to on these things. And so what we found was that I would then go back to check out how Facebook works. So like Facebook advertising and the whole thing completely changed. And so that's a really good example of how. These small businesses have all these platforms that they're meant to be using like Facebook advertising, like SEO, like Google advertising.

[00:03:29] And they just don't have the bandwidth to learn how to, how to use it and to then stay abreast of it because they just have so many other things that they're doing in their business. So typically people have tried those platforms. Maybe they've tried working with influences and had a bit of hit or miss over there.

[00:03:44] Maybe they've tried. Partnerships of some extent to some, some degree, but what Ampjar does is it provides a really simple way for them to leverage the audiences that they've built, but also the skills that they have as people and knowing what they're really good [00:04:00] at, which is having a really good, genuine conversation with their own customers.

[00:04:03] So it feels like a really natural place for someone to go when they have maybe tried. All of the, all of the above obvious places to start. Now we present an opportunity which is perfect for them because it doesn't have a steep learning curve. It's really natural to the way that they are spending their time, running their business and communicating anyway.

[00:04:22] Naga S: [00:04:22] I can relate to the fatigue factor that you are to where you know, as small businesses you're. Need to keep up with so many things that keep changing on a constant basis. Right. And especially like last platform that Google and Facebook, it's not really feasible for them to do that.

[00:04:37]What's the duration of the learning curve for Amtrak and what's the difference in the customer acquisition costs that these businesses typically see on your platform?

[00:04:45]Pete: [00:04:45] For us where you don't think we have much of a learning curve, so the way that we see it is essentially what we're saying to them is when you land in the platform, here's a bunch of other brands that you can shout out. So go and choose someone to  share through your [00:05:00] channels.

[00:05:00] And then what they'll do is they'll just. Pick someone out that they'd like to look over and they'll say, wow, I'd never knew that this company existed in here or Hey, check out this brand founded by this brilliant person in Nebraska or wow. Check out this beautiful imagery over here. And so they'll do something like that.

[00:05:16] Something that's really nice and natural. And so they're doing that anyways. So they're already used to doing that and having that as part of the process. And then the way that Ampjar works is that when you do that, when you shout someone else out, You earn what we call karma credits. So it's like our internal currency of Karma or Goodwill.

[00:05:34] So I've shouted someone else out. I then earned credits for shouting them out. And then as soon as you've got credits, other people can start shouting you out. So you might find that it takes a couple of hours. You might, it might take a day, but someone else is there. And so you shout someone out and bang someone else shouts you own return.

[00:05:51] You shout someone out. Someone else who helps you out in return? So it's not necessarily one-to-one is not a shout out brand. A brand day. Shouts. We back [00:06:00] in return is more like I shout out brand a and then brand J comes on and shouts me out. And then brand F shouts me out as well, because they were both a bit smaller.

[00:06:08] So it's yeah, it's nice and flexible in that way.

[00:06:12]Naga S: [00:06:12] So essentially, what, what your aha moment I guess, would be here is that a lot of content creators typically start off this way, right? They start off by being on shows are on you know, on the podcast. Folks who are similar to them, or even a little bit more popular than them. And they try to get a little bit of the other podcast or the other content creators audience back to that platform.

[00:06:39] So is that what you're trying to get at with, with this.

[00:06:42] Pete: [00:06:42] Yeah, I think that there's a, there's definitely like a, an element of that. So we've taken that that sort of model and applied it into consumer brands, applied it into saying. Like one brand can shout out another brand. And the Goodwill that they have with their customers is [00:07:00] something that they can leverage to then reach more customers in another way.

[00:07:04] So it's almost like saying that, you know, if we were, if we were doing this and I would say, Oh, well look, the passion people podcast represents a great opportunity for me to tell our story in front of some brilliant customers or potential customers all over the world. That's got value to me. And so it would then be that because you have given me some of this spotlight Karma credits would transfer from me to you.

[00:07:27] And then in the future, you would have Karma credits and then someone else would have you on their podcast. Karma credits would transfer from you to that other person. So, yeah, we're not in that space yet. We're not doing podcasts. We're really focused down at the moment on these e-commerce businesses, independent retail who are working on those channels like Instagram and  through emails and those kinds of things that are really natural to what they're doing, but yeah, exactly.

[00:07:50] That exactly the right model that you've just described.

[00:07:54]Naga S: [00:07:54] Can you elaborate a little bit more in terms of the ROI that these individual brands get [00:08:00] by being on platforms such as yours?

[00:08:02]Pete: [00:08:02] So what we focus on is views and clicks. And so the model that we have at the moment is because we're building what we believe is a very long-term business, rolling up all these brands, bringing them into this model of allowing them to leverage their social audiences, their databases, their traffic, we're focused right now on on activity rather than revenue.

[00:08:26] So, what, what we're trying to do right now is, is say that for us, our pricing model, isn't about us getting paid as much as we can. It's about getting people to do as much as we can so that we're building a community that supports others. So our pricing it's $22 a month us, but if you do 12 shout outs in a month, it's free, we won't charge you.

[00:08:47] So if you get to the end of that month and you've done 12 shout outs, we just skip your billing and we just don't charge you. So. By having it that way, often the investment in is zero from a dollar perspective. [00:09:00] Instead, what they're doing is they're sharing other brands in a positive way for them.

[00:09:05]And then they're getting clicks and traffic off the back of it. So when they're sharing another brand, we always want that to be a wholly positive exercise for them. And not just a, Oh God, I have to share another brand. I don't want to do this. It's never like that. It's always a case of, Hey, today, I'm going to share some of my favorite female founded brands, check out these guys and these guys and these guys, and it's always really positive for them to do it.

[00:09:27]So the investment ends pretty low and pretty low effort. And then the investment out or the, the output of that the result is. Is traffic and sales. So what we tend to find is that we, we net our average customer about $250 worth of additional sales a week of being a part of the platform. So if the traffic that we drive from are from all these different chat apps, so they'll get in return.

[00:09:52] It definitely varies because essentially the Karma model means what you give is what you get in return. But on average, it's [00:10:00] about $250 worth of additional sales every single week based on the traffic that we drive to these members websites.

[00:10:07] Naga S: [00:10:07] Wow. That's that's awesome. And I'm sure as you get more and more brands, that number is only going to keep going up.

[00:10:13] Pete: [00:10:13] Yeah. It's, it's exciting to see. I would say it's, it's even turned a corner a lot through COVID. So for us originally right at the start. So back in March, we had a different pricing model and the pricing was like a set amount per month. And we actually just said, look, we don't know what's going to happen for the next few months for all of, for all of you, in fact, for us as well.

[00:10:33] But what we're going to do is we're just going to drop our pricing to zero for a few months. So when she's not going to charge you for a few months, whatever you do Yeah. It was something that we knew that we could do from the perspective of, you know, we're venture backed. We raised some capital, we have some, money and, and it wouldn't be a killer to do that.

[00:10:49]We knew that the important thing for us was these businesses had no idea what was happening. You know, retail drove down to zero. Kids were at home. [00:11:00] People were looking after kids while they were trying to run their businesses. There was just a lot happening. And so what we wanted to do as well, there was a really aggressive uncertainty.

[00:11:07] And not that the world's in a brilliant place now, but while there was really aggressive uncertainty, we wanted to be able to turn around and say, look, let's look after you now and we'll work it out in the future. So I'd say that we got a lot of loyalty off the back of that. A lot of people said, well, that was a brilliant thing to do, and we should be proud.

[00:11:23] I think we are And that was the catalyst for us to say, Oh, well now we've said to these people, we're not going to charge them because we don't know what's happening. We got a lot of growth off the back of that is I guess, Hey, drop your pricing to zero. And lots of people start using your product. That's the secret.

[00:11:38] Everyone should take away from this episode. But actually for us, the big driver was we need to drive activity. So to get all these brands Helping each other out doing it more and more and more was even more relevant and pertinent at that time. So it all kind of collided in the right way for us, but , we had to give up a lot to make it happen.

[00:11:57]Naga S: [00:11:57] So essentially you folks moved to [00:12:00] a freemium model of sorts, but with no shift to paid yet, but they've dropped to a freemium model, but in the future you would do a transition to a paid model. Again.

[00:12:09] Pete: [00:12:09] Yeah, we were like a monthly fee model and then we moved to not even Freemium. It was just free. So we went from monthly to free. And then now we're at I guess we call it like teared based on activity, but it's kind of negative activity. So the more you do, the less you get charged, so you either get charged $22 a month or you don't.

[00:12:30]And then after that, like once we've, once we feel like we've got. Such sufficient scale and we're pretty close, but once we've got  such sufficient scale, we'll then turn around and say, well, now it's just $22 a month because we know that everyone's getting value out of it anyway. And we don't really have to incentivize activity because activity is important, but for everyone new who's joining.

[00:12:53] Be active because we can show you why you should be active, but also you're still going to get charged. So there's kind of a longer term [00:13:00] play to get there. And again, because we took  that venture capital at what we believed was the right time and with the right kind of partners, it meant that it allowed us to be flexible.

[00:13:09]Naga S: [00:13:09] I'm sure this is a concern that you would have heard from some of the brands that are coming on. How does this work in case both a brand and its competitor are both part of Ampjar. So how does that work?

[00:13:19]Pete: [00:13:19] We have it. We definitely have it. We focus on, like I said, the core customer base for us is independent retail and there's only so many categories. So if you're a jewelry company or a fashion brand, there's nuance between what counts as competitive for you. But we have a lot of brands that are in similar markets that crossover and.

[00:13:38] Yeah, the, brand just has ultimate control. So when you join, you answer a bunch of profiling questions and you tell us, these are who my customers are. These are the kinds of customers that they want to meet and give us a bunch of other things. And then we'll match you up with a lot of other brands, but never anyone who's competitive to you.

[00:13:54] And also if there is someone that you think has an element of. Competition. You just don't shout them out. you're [00:14:00] totally in control over what you do. You don't have to share them. They don't have to share you. You can completely remove them as a match and you have ultimate control. So we know that giving our members that ultimate control is critical.

[00:14:12] So we've always had that really core so that the competitive thing is just never an issue.

[00:14:17]Naga S: [00:14:17] For these retail brands that,  are typically run by solopreneurs.  What are some of the others like broad level trends that you notice now that you have such proximity to such a niche segment of the market?

[00:14:27] Pete: [00:14:27] Yeah, great question. I mean, I think what we're seeing more than anything is all these businesses. A lot of them used to be spending time at events and trade fairs and those kinds of things. And that's obviously completely changed, like nothing in-person is happening. So we've seen the growth of the platform.

[00:14:44] Not sure if you guys have heard it as a platform called fair, which is a wholesale marketplace for these independent retail style brands. And so. All those brands have gone from this model of, I need to go to these trade markets to find the [00:15:00] next brands to stock at my store. And now that's all been totally digitized.

[00:15:05]We're seeing a lot of local brands having to jump online that used to rely on traffic from, , people who are walking up and down the street, but now that's less relevant. So lots and lots of brands are finding new ways to go online. And then even as like a more smaller trend. We're seeing more of a navigation towards the leaders in the marketplace.

[00:15:27] So for us, we see a lot of people going to Shopify. So if they're on Wix or Wecommerce or Squarespace, those kinds of things, there's more and more. Movement. We see towards Shopify because people look at that as being the gold standard and people start there as well. So I think that we might see a bit of a change over the next few, maybe even like year or so of people.

[00:15:51] Of the, the number of options there potentially reducing a little bit because the barriers to entry have got so high. I don't see many new options [00:16:00] launching in terms of  like retail brands selling online because the bar now to be at the level of a Shopify is. Is incredibly high. And there might be a bit of a roll up in that area.

[00:16:11] Some, some smaller ones teaming up because yeah, again,  we just see so much value in network effect for Shopify to have to have multiple people using their platforms as they do.

[00:16:21]Naga S: [00:16:21] So this seems like.an evolution in marketing right?. This seems like the logical next step in marketing, affordable marketing with an impact because whenever a particular segment or whenever a particular sector becomes extremely hot, what automatically happens is that the, the bidding rates for Google and for Facebook , they go insane.

[00:16:44] And for people the ROI from the marketing spend reduces. So do you see what you folks are doing? It I'm just as being like the evolution of marketing and how do you see that panning out going forward?

[00:16:56] Pete: [00:16:56] Yeah. The larger trend of what we see here is that. [00:17:00] The digital marketing is owned by two brands right now. So Facebook and Google, like it's, I can't remember the percentage off the top of my head, but it's something ridiculous. Like 65% of all digital spend goes through their channels.

[00:17:12] It could be way worse. That number could be way off, but I'm sure if you Google it, it'll come up. . But the way that we see it is that this is a movement in our minds towards giving the control back to the brands. So giving them more autonomy to control how they advertise, because essentially what we're trying to do is create a third model here of yes, you can use Google because that is intent search yes, you can use Facebook because that is like passive interruptions in browsing and interest based targeting and those kinds of things.

[00:17:45] But. What we're trying to do here is we're trying to say, but you also have control of this audience yourself, and you have a relationship that you've built with these customers. So that the larger trend that we're seeing is, is even like where, what someone's favorite brand is. So I think [00:18:00] if you go back.

[00:18:01] 10 years. And you said what's your favorite brand? So the average person on the street,  there'd be a lot more homogenous answers between people of saying it's Nike, it's Apple it's this car company, it's this tire company, it's this technology company, that gaming company, whatever it is, There'll be a lot more homogeneity in their answers.

[00:18:20] So everyone will be saying the same kind of things. I think what's changed now is that if you say to someone what's your favorite brand, it can be something that was started last year by one person who spun up a Shopify store and built a great following very, very quickly. So we're seeing  the interest moving towards . A smaller level in terms of these smaller businesses that are now able to, through social and tech,  very quickly grab attention. And then what we want to see is we want to see a model that allows them to have much more control over how. They build their business without having to go to a Facebook and Google and pay them because they [00:19:00] actually have the best asset, which is an incredibly strong relationship with their own customers.

[00:19:04] So our model is obviously saying leverage that relationship that you have in a really positive way without having to constantly put your hand in your pocket and hand over money to Facebook and Google.

[00:19:14]Naga S: [00:19:14] You mentioned that over the last 10 years, we've seen the emergence of these solopreneurs solo retailers, right? So what you mentioned a couple of factors that led to that. Could you elaborate? Could you double click on that a little bit and elaborate on what you think has led to the rise, these of these you know, solo business owners in the specific niche that you're working on.

[00:19:36] Pete: [00:19:36] Yeah. I mean, I think there's. we've all like in our own example of why we started this business, you know, way we have kids. So we've got little twin girls and my wife became the ultimate consumer. And so I think the model was then changed. Around five years old now. And the model was then changed around that time, where there was this massive proliferation [00:20:00] of small businesses that were springing up that could then talk to their customers really easily through Instagram.

[00:20:06] So my wife would constantly shop through Instagram and find brands all the time, find people that she wanted to. As you want it to support that you want it to be a part of as you want it to feel good. So when you buy from a small business, you genuinely know that you're supporting someone, you know, that the other end, their little Shopify app on their phone did the, that the till register noise whenever you make a sale and that someone else is happy at the other end.

[00:20:31] And there's something that comes from that, that I think is, is now more relevant in our community and in our way of living. So the way that we see it is that now that's been shown and now technology has enabled people to spin up a business more quickly by having like there's a, there's essentially a playbook.

[00:20:48] It's go and get yourself an Instagram account, go and get yourself a short, go get a.com go and get a Shopify site to, to power it all. Start talking through Instagram, load [00:21:00] your login what you're selling onto the Shopify store. And you can go. You don't need to try to think about where am I going to get $5,000 a month to. Have my rent, then I'm going to have to pay for internet and they're going to have to pay for  my till. And I have to pay for fit out, then gonna have to pay for this and that and stuff and this and not the other. You don't need to do that anymore.

[00:21:19] So the model has gone from being a really high barrier to them. Being able to start a business to then actually a much lower barrier. And so I think it's a bit of a catalyst thing. A few people went early and they're doing it, but now when someone starts a business. They might start it because, well, they, they had they had a baby and they used to work at a big bank in the city.

[00:21:40] And now they've been living in their house, bringing this child up for a couple of months. It's like, wow, I actually don't want to go back to the office. I don't want to go back and do that job anymore, but I've just bought all this stuff. I've been the ultimate consumer for a while. I can see the pain points that other parents have gone through.

[00:21:56] Let me spin up a baby clothes company. You know that everyone's going through these [00:22:00] experiences. And I think that because they're able to see the winners and see other people do so well and people that they know who are now working for themselves, rather than working for  for the big businesses, they can look at those examples and say, Why not me.

[00:22:14] Why can't I have that lifestyle? And I'm willing to trade the risk of giving up my a hundred thousand dollars a year job at the bank to try this out and to see if I can build a business because the autonomy and the fun that I'll have doing it is, is worth it for me.

[00:22:31]Naga S: [00:22:31] That's really interesting insight because the reason I asked you that question is because we've also seen similar transitions happen with creators.  Creators who we talked to as part of the podcast, a recurring theme that, that has now started coming on is that once you've had like a large enough audience, you turn them into a community, which is the same that you said, get your proximity to your business and leverage it.

[00:22:56] So in the creator context, what they do is [00:23:00] they have like a large enough viewer base or listener base or following whatever you want to call it. They start curating them into a community and then they start a business to support the community, whether it is it could be a retail business or it could be a services business, but I see a lot of parallels that's happening right now on, in the creative economy.

[00:23:18] And what's happening with like online retail and solo prenuers that you're talking about.

[00:23:23] Pete: [00:23:23] Totally. I think you're absolutely right. The analogy between, you know, even a tool like sub stack, it's the same thing. It's someone who maybe used to work at the New York times and you know, stuff gets cut over there, but they've got a lot to say about, about interesting things. And what if they found a way to then roll up this audience themselves soft, sell people into their content.

[00:23:45] Stop talking about something that was niche and niche, like niche down to something that people really wanted to hear about or a small number of people really wanted to hear about. And then they can spin off a business from themselves that replaces their salary, that they used to get paid at that big office in the city, [00:24:00] in New York.

[00:24:01] I think that the trend hit and becomes interesting in terms of how that flows out across the rest of society. So the, I I'm sure you you've seen the model of. Here's how to, here's how to make a hundred thousand dollars. You either need a hundred people to pay you a thousand dollars a year, or you need a thousand people to pay you $100 a year.

[00:24:21]Or you need a hundred thousand people to pay you a dollar a year. So there's a lot of different ways of getting there. But if you can create value and share value with people, it's there's definite ways to go from that model of. Being employed and doing it for the, doing the hourly rate or the monthly rate or the yearly rate or building something for yourself that has.

[00:24:40] Much more risk, but also incredible potential. And then, and then you don't, live in New York anymore. Maybe you find that earning a hundred thousand dollars and living in New York is actually not quite as good as  earning $70,000 and living in Ohio. Like you can find where you want to be and you can, you can live have more [00:25:00] flexibility as live the life that you want to live as well.

[00:25:01] So it's, I think it's fascinating to how this whole creator economy shift, whether it's independent retail, whether it's people who are educating others, how that moves from one model of of how we live and go about our lives to it, to the next.

[00:25:17]Naga S: [00:25:17] Right. I think underlying all of this is. The fact that through the internet, we now have direct access to our consumers, to our subscribers, to our listeners earlier, this access was kind of intermediated through in, in your substack example, it was intermediated through the newspaper you were working for other magazine, you were working for.

[00:25:40] But what has happened is that all of these creators or writers also have their own individual followings that they are now able to monetize. And in the same context, even for the retailers that you're talking about that are springing up earlier, all of these folks were, have only thought about creating like  a small business account on Amazon or something like that.

[00:25:59] But now [00:26:00] all of these. Places which have typically been like intermediaries who are getting replaced and brands and creators are directly engaging with who their core audience is.

[00:26:11]Pete: [00:26:11] Yeah. And I think that their ability to have that flexibility as well becomes a critical moment there as well. So if you're thinking about, if you're a technology writer at the, I'm not going to use the New York times, example again, your technology writer at the New York times, But you write an article that hits a certain, certain number of clicks, or it gets a certain number of views or a set number of interactions, the model through which you can pivot your content to more, more frequently chase that that subject matter, it's a lot harder than if you're doing your own thing and you stumbled across something you say, Hey, maybe I should try to write something else about that and see if I can scope this out.

[00:26:55] If I can share this out  through Reddit to try to get more people to look at it, maybe I can share it out [00:27:00] through this other channel over here. Maybe I can get a few more eyeballs on it. And then you discover the, actually the title of you being a quote unquote technology writer. Isn't quite right.

[00:27:09] You're actually technology meets. XYZ ed, or you're not technology your something else. And that you find that you don't have this remit for you to stick to a certain box, but in fact, you can flex around what your skills are, what you're interested in and what other people are interested in hearing from you about.

[00:27:26] So I think the flexibility that that enjoys , is really intangible, but it's probably underplayed in terms of how important that is.

[00:27:33] Naga S: [00:27:33] Absolutely. And we always talk about what are the, the things that keep us doing the things we do right at the end of the day, it's autonomy, it's mastery it's purpose. If you're able to find something that appropriately balances, all these things with financial rewards, I think you have that.

[00:27:50] Pete: [00:27:50] Yeah. And I, and I think that the, the one thing that we overlay to that is the, is that genuine, joyful moment as well. So. If you want to enjoy [00:28:00] what you're doing as the creator, as well as the shopper. So I think that that's important for us to, again, it's sort of super like intangible piece and difficult to line up, but it, but it critically makes a difference in our market.

[00:28:12] Like people will spend more with independent retail to get the same tangible outcome. Because they have a sense of, I supported someone. I felt, I know where this comes from. I feel like this is a good thing, and I'm willing to spend an extra 10% on that product to come from that person because it means more to me.

[00:28:32] And so that's a, a small shift that actually makes it when you like extend that out, it actually makes a massive difference.

[00:28:41]Naga S: [00:28:41] I think Peter, you have like a very unique perspective in terms of this transition from your earlier marketing to, you know, leading amp jar in terms of working with all of these independent independent brands. So as we wrap up our episode as closing thoughts, could you just share what creators can [00:29:00] do?

[00:29:00] Like now there are a lot of creators have come up because of Covid and the rise of content creation. Could you share some insights in terms of how can creators build their own small retail business and you know, any top couple of things that they need to keep in mind when they're going about doing that?

[00:29:16]Pete: [00:29:16] Yeah. I mean, the first thing is probably All the evidence is out there for you. So you're not blazing a trail independently that you're having to work all this out for yourself. If you want to find the perfect website style that you want to go for. Look at who else is out there. Go and look at what other people are doing.

[00:29:35] Like do your research and not doing this blind. So , you can very much build upon what other people have done to find your own place that you should have. Faith is going to convert as well. So think about what else is out there that you can kind of say, like borrow from and find, find what works for you.

[00:29:54] Then it is genuinely about how you can build. Meaningful [00:30:00] connections with your customers. You want your customers to be people who will spend 10% more with you versus going to Amazon or best buy or whatever the store is local to you, to your eye. You need them to have that sense of loyalty to you, because if you can make that happen on a scale with 10 customers and 20 customers and 30 customers, the beautiful thing about social and digital these days is that your experiences are.

[00:30:33] Scalable. So there's no reason why, if you can achieve that relationship with 50 customers, that you can achieve it with 50,000 customers. So think about who you are and what story you want to tell and why people have an interest in listening to you. And it can just be a sense of, Hey, I'm a mum to talk to me about being a mom.

[00:30:55] I'm going to share my story. That that's enough. It's enough to [00:31:00] have something like that and say, I'm a genuine person. I want to open the door and let you in. And, and have you be part of my journey. That can be enough. So find the position that you think works for you, be clear with yourself on what you're willing to give up.

[00:31:14] So, you know, one thing that happens with social is that there's this notion of, I'm going to point a camera at myself all the time and talk about stuff. Okay, cool. Now you have to be willing to do that. You've got to decide, am I willing to do that? Do I want to do that? Am I that kind of person? Now, when I pointed the camera at my family, what?

[00:31:28] I pointed the camera at my kids, when I tell people, Hey, we're swimming practice today. Like where do you draw the line? Like have a, have a bit of a sense of that, because it's important for you to know what you're getting yourself into and not burn out a year later because I went, God had just showed everyone every single part of my life.

[00:31:44] It was too hard, but. I think that there's, a lot of scope to use what has worked incredibly well in social channels. And to use that to your advantage, because that's how right now you're going to build a really strong relationship with your customer [00:32:00] base, who will then be your advocates who will then be your storytellers, or then be the people who help you go from nothing to a business that will replace the salary that you have at a full-time job.

[00:32:13]Naga S: [00:32:13] I think that's a phenomenal way to wrap up our conversation, Peter. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. And before we go, could you share you know, where people can reach out to you where  where we can find you in case they want to continue this conversation?

[00:32:27] Pete: [00:32:27] Yeah. So the company is just amp, joe.com. So amp, J a r.com.  I'm super interested to hear from people. So if you want to drop me a note, you can via Twitter. I'm the worst tweeter in the world, but I, I look and listen and lurk, I think the word is so on there, if you want to DM me, you can just. Pay the James, sorry.

[00:32:44] Pete, Pete Davis, UK. So Pete Davis, UK and yeah, you can even hit me up on LinkedIn. Email me, you'll find me anywhere. I'm happy to happy to have a conversation and to hear from smart people who are doing passionate things.

[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Naga S: [00:32:59] Fantastic. I'll also make sure that I include all your social channels as well as the  website on the show notes so that people can find it.

[00:33:07]

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the second conversation with Sharique Shamsudheen, a personal finance and business YouTuber with over 500k subscribers. Sharique is also a serial entrepreneur and in this episode we talk about creating revenue streams outside of youtube by leveraging and creating your community.

 

Reach out to Sharique -

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/ShariqueSamsudheen

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sharique.samsudheen/?hl=en

Website - https://marketfeed.news/

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/?hl=en

 

More about EpLog Media -

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

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If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organization.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In conversation with Sharique Shamsudheen, a personal finance and business YouTuber with over 500k subscribers. Sharique is also a serial entrepreneur and in this episode we talk about the 3 pillars of content creation and how to find success on YouTube.

Book Suggestion - Rich Dad Poor Dad, Sapiens

Reach out to Sharique -

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/ShariqueSamsudheen

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sharique.samsudheen/?hl=en

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thepassionpeoplepodcast/?hl=en

 

More about EpLog Media -

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at [email protected].

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organization.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In conversation with Omkar Diwekar a cinematographer and national award-winning film, Unreserved. Don't know what a cinematographer does? This is a continuing dialogue on the different folks involved in the video creation, editing, and distribution process.

[00:00:00]Naga S: [00:00:00] Thank you so much for taking time to be on the podcast.

[00:00:04] Omkar: [00:00:04] Thank you. Thank you so much.

 

[00:00:05]Naga S: [00:00:05] A good place to start would be to tell us what your passion is and how you're making it manifest.

 

[00:00:13]Omkar: [00:00:13] I'm a cinematographer. I work, in Bombay as a freelance cinematographer. I, Majorly love to shoot, nonfiction, the documentary films, but has documentaries. Don't provide a lot of, financial help, in India, especially I, I do, sort of like digital commercials and short films, and I do aspire to, get into fiction filmmaking as well.

 

[00:00:37]that is also a long-term target.

 

[00:00:41] Naga S: [00:00:41] Got it. So how is, so there, there are all these terms, right? Like there's a director, there's a producer, there's a cinematographer. So what, what do all these different people do? And, in that, what, what do you specifically do?

 

[00:00:53] Omkar: [00:00:53] Okay. So I am a cinematographer. So my department is, camera, lighting, [00:01:00] collaborating with the director, before we go on the shoot. my job is to collaborate with the director and, sort of, combine his vision with the technical, know-how that is needed because filmmaking is ultimately, it's an art, but it's a scientific art.

[00:01:16]there's a lot of, science that goes behind, how you capture the images, how you record the sound. So, it's filmmaking in itself is a collaboration of various kinds of people who are, who specialize in various different departures. So, Peter, who has a vision for that particular story? He has, he has seen the film already in his head even before, he sets foot on the stage on the, on the set.

[00:01:44] So it's the cinematographer's job to really, understand his vision, how he sees the film, and try to get it, on camera. So that's, that's predominantly the job.

 

[00:01:57]Naga S: [00:01:57] Got it. the shift from [00:02:00] engineering to, you know, something on the creative lens must be, must be a big one. So what, what inspired you, or what pushed you to make that shift happen?

 

[00:02:08]Omkar: [00:02:08] okay. So, let me go back B before, engineering to answer your question. So as a child, actually my father used to, so are you, you remember how on-duty version? every Friday and Saturday and Sunday, they would be filmed in the evening. So, so my father and he used to be home, on, on the weekends, he would, Said set me down, before the film would start and he's a huge fan.

 

[00:02:35] So, and every time there would be a film playing, he would sit me down like an half an hour before the film would start. And he would, you know, very, enthusiastically, he would explain, he would tell me this is going to happen in this film. This film is about that. And he's going to do this. He's going to do that.

 

[00:02:55] And it used to be very exciting for me because. my father is in general, a [00:03:00] very shy person. So, he was, he's very reserved kind of a person. So this was like a , rare, chance for me to, you know, have some kind of a bond with him. And that's how, this fascination for films really grew for me from my childhood , I used to watch a lot of films as a kid, when I was in my junior college, I used to bunk college and go watch films, at the theater.

 

[00:03:26] And, and then, when I was in engineering college, what happened actually was like, unfortunately, in the first year of my engineering college, I had an accident and, my leg was like burned from a side and I underwent an operation and. Because of that. I had to sit out a year, the, my first year of engineering.

 

[00:03:47] I

[00:03:47] Naga S: [00:03:47] Oh,

[00:03:48] Omkar: [00:03:48] I could not. Yeah, I could not give my, second semester exams. It's like the accident happened just a day before, my maths exam on of the second

 

[00:03:57] Naga S: [00:03:57] wow. Almost seems like it's on [00:04:00] purpose.

 

[00:04:00] Omkar: [00:04:00] Yeah, you could say, so like in hindsight, I'm happy about it, but yeah, so I had to sit out there exams and, and so I had one year of nothing that's and, I was pretty clueless.

 

[00:04:13] I mean, first year you have no idea what to do in life., I was just home jobless and, this friend of mine from college, he, one day he would, he just came up to me and he said, why don't you join the theater circle of the college? And, you know, instead of doing that thing, you could just watch films, like, read books or something like that.

 

[00:04:37] So that kind of, just gave me something to do. So pony has a lot of, theater culture, especially into college competitions. So I did that. And while doing that, I got in touch with some people from FTI. And then I got to know about the pony international film festival.

 

[00:04:57] So that kind of set me off on [00:05:00] that path, where I started watching a lot of cinema. I made some friends at FTI. I started assisting them on their projects at FDI, all this while being pretty absent, in college. like by the end of my, by the end of final year of engineering, I was pretty much clueless as to what I want to do.

 

[00:05:19] I just knew that I didn't want to do anything related to engineering. I had, certain other options, but, So like, around the end of the final year of engineering, I sort of knew that I wanted to pursue filmmaking. then I didn't know what exactly I wanted to do in filmmaking. Like there are different avenues.

 

[00:05:39], I, for sure I knew that, direction is not for me or acting is not for me. I knew that because.

 

[00:05:46] Naga S: [00:05:46] If I can

[00:05:47] Omkar: [00:05:47] Yeah, because see, acting is something that is, it requires a lot out of you. You need to really put yourself out there for the world to see. Right. , I'm a pretty reserved kind of a person.

 

[00:05:57] I like to be in the background. I [00:06:00] like to be a little bit low profile, you know? So, and again, direction is sort of the same in a different way, because again, everybody's looking at you and everybody, you are answerable to a lot of people, and again, you are also, managing a lot of people, you're managing all the departments and it's a very responsible kind of a job.

 

[00:06:23]so I sort of knew that I don't want to go there, but I want to be involved in filmmaking, but I also want to, do something that really, is important. To do the basic basics of filmmaking. So I thought of editing and cinematography. and then when I was assisting people at FTI that sort of, gave me a lot of, understanding and learning.

 

[00:06:46] As to, what each department means. I literally, after I completed engineering, some projects, I, that I assisted at FTI, I was literally just like a production assistant. and my jobs were job would be simply [00:07:00] to, get the food from place to place, be to all the group. So that's literally where I started from and doing all of that really gave me an understanding of each and every department, what each and every person is supposed to do.

 

[00:07:13] And it also taught me like FKA. The environment is so good. FDA usually gets a very bad name, but the one thing that it really taught me there that, every student over there really values each and every person's job, like even, taking that food from place to place B, was an important job and they understood the value of it.

[00:07:35] So, but while doing that I understood what, his department, does, to achieve that final goal of the final film. And, so I sort of, gravitated towards the camera. And then, the I, a couple of projects I assisted, the cinematographers over there. And then in 2013, I attempted the FDA entrance exam.

 

[00:07:59]until then [00:08:00] I did not have a camera or anything as such. And, and still, I got through for the, interviews of both, TV, cinematography course and film, cinematography course at FDA. And that's when my parents were suddenly like, okay, he has potential. He's not just wasting his years. And that's when I got my first camera.

 

[00:08:21]I got selected for the TV course that year, but it's a one-year course. And I was like, I thought, I'll wait it out. And I'll try again next year. so I didn't take up admission in 2013. And in 2014, they did not have admissions because they had to clear out the 2008 batch, which was still not cleared up.

 

[00:08:41] So, unfortunately I could not get into FDI and, but then 2014, I shifted to Bombay because by then it was like, I have to do something. I can't just sit at home and not do anything. So my family was pretty concerned because I was, [00:09:00] it was really not doing anything. till the summer of 2014, it was just, watching films, going to FTI, watching films over there and just yeah, 2012.

 

[00:09:12] Naga S: [00:09:12] Okay.

[00:09:12]Omkar: [00:09:12] for two years, I was not doing anything that just watching films was all that I was doing. I was literally watching like at least two films every day. and, so then 2014, one of my friends who's now a pretty well established DOP. his name is . he, suggested to me that, you should go to Xavier's Institute of communications in Bombay.

 

[00:09:33]which is like a one-year, filmmaking course, in Vegas. Cynthia has called his mom. So, and, and he said that it would be good for you. You will get some kind of exposure for, the, how the industry works in Bombay, how people function in Bombay, how Bombay as a city itself is. And, maybe after doing that one year, cause you can come back for FTI.

 

[00:09:53] You will have already have established some contacts over there. It will help you. And I kind of just thought it's [00:10:00] good to do good advice. So I went for it. I gave the entrance and I got selected. So I did the one year course, at XIC in Bombay. And since then I have been in Bombay. I started getting work after XIC.

[00:10:14]and yeah, so that's pretty much my filmmaking journey.

[00:10:19]Naga S: [00:10:19] After they after. Yeah. Now, so do you continue being in Bombay? Because now you've said that you're never in Bombay for five years, right? What happens next?

[00:10:28] Omkar: [00:10:28] Yeah. So now my life is pretty much in Bombay because, so during XIC I met my wife, we got married in 2017.

[00:10:38] Naga S: [00:10:38] Oh, congratulations.

 

[00:10:39] Omkar: [00:10:39] Thank you. she's from Bombay itself, so, and I pretty much, most of the work is in Bombay. so. Life is pretty much set in Bombay. Now I have, my parents stay in pony, so I'm coming and going, but, I think it will be, I'll have to be in Bombay.

 

[00:10:58]the idea is, [00:11:00] like I would love to go back to pony, and work from there. but it will take some time.

 

[00:11:06]Naga S: [00:11:06] But I guess for the, for the kind of work that you're doing, Bombay is the place to be right.

 

[00:11:11] Omkar: [00:11:11] Yeah. especially for commercial work, majority of the work happens in Bombay, the, for like digital commercials, the short films and web series and. all that kind of stuff happens in Bombay. Poonja also has its own industry, but it's mostly regional. Bombay is more Hindi specific or, you know, urban .

[00:11:35] And I personally enjoy shooting non-fiction more, I  like shooting documentaries a lot more. so after I completed XIC I, a friend of mine put me in touch with these people at camera and shorts and, with, I worked with them for a year and that's where I met, Samarth Mahajan

 

[00:11:54] he, he had this idea of, making a film about people traveling in general compartments, [00:12:00] in the country. so. I really loved that idea. And we set off on that journey that was in 2016 and it was three of us. We traveled all across the country, for 17 days create, in general compartments and we shot, with people traveling in general compartments.

 

[00:12:21] It was just a series of conversations. we never even thought that it would become a film. we just went thinking that, you know, let's just see what happens. we were, it was pretty naive. We were like beginners, trying to do something. And, it sort of really changed, our lives, in a lot of ways because not only did it, change our perspective of, life itself, it also gave our careers.

 

[00:12:49]a big, boost in a way when the film was done and, and then the next year when we released it, we, it got a national award, and it was sort of really, [00:13:00] was, what do you call it? vindication to, you know, a lot of, our, passion and. Why we do the things we do.

 

[00:13:09] So, yeah, so that, really helped us like that film really changed a lot of things for us. And then after that, we started working on another film, Samarth and me, with, the, the people at camera and shorts. We started working on another film called the Borderlands which is basically, a film where we are trying to explore the lives of people living on the borders of the country, and stories of people, beyond the conversations of politics and, military.

 

[00:13:40] And, it just, tried to try and to explore, the daily lives of these people, which are normally, you don't get to talk about. So that's the idea of that film. So we've been working on that film for over two years now. So yeah, so I really enjoyed that process, going out and shooting, with real life people with real people, real [00:14:00] stories, that really, appeals to me a lot more.

 

[00:14:03]Naga S: [00:14:03] That way, the podcast and what you are doing with borderlands is quite similar in the sense that we are all, we are all showcasing stories of people and, you know, we're getting it out in the world, but it's interesting that you mention unreserved and your trip across India, because that's where I started following you on Twitter.

 

[00:14:23] Like back in the day in 2016. And I was on a gap year myself then. And so I was working in a company and I had taken a break. And I was trying to figure out what to do with my life. And I was looking for, you know, whatever's happening in the world and you know, you get it, like you guys are trending on Twitter for a long time, as in when that was happening.

 

[00:14:44] Omkar: [00:14:44] it's like a big, surprise, like a shock to me actually, because, so I was like a normal. Like hardly, like 200, 300 followers, kind of a person on Twitter. And, I just started posting pictures. so [00:15:00] the very first day I just posted, we, we created this map, which is there in the film, which created this map, of the journey that we are going to do.

 

[00:15:08] So like starting from Bombay, then going to Delhi, then going to Jammu, then going to all the way to the, Dibrugah in the East and then Kanyakumari and back to Bombay. So it was like a. All the four corners of the country. So that map, I put it. I posted that on Twitter and they just said that, you know, three of us, we traveling for the next 17 days, in the general compartments.

 

[00:15:29] And at that point , I didn't publish that you're making a film or anything. It was just like a post that we traveling. And then, I just started putting up. Photos of every person we were talking to, along with one line that stuck with me of what they said. And that just kind of took off like in, in, in two or three days, I think every news site was putting out all the tweets.

 

[00:15:54] Some of them were asking me, some of them were not asking me, but I think almost all the [00:16:00] news publications had posted that thread online.

 

[00:16:03]Naga S: [00:16:03] Yeah, I think that was, you know, that what moved me the most about those posts. Was most of those pictures and those one-liners. And I think there were some small videos also that you guys had posted. I think something that you're taking on the mobile, where you're interviewing the people on the compartments.

 

[00:16:19] I think, we are all interested to know how other people's lives are panning out, right. Because, and that's, that evident in the success of social media, but, you're getting out stories of people who we don't typically get to talk to. And we've always wanted to ask that person, Hey, what do you do?

 

[00:16:36] Like there's this, you know, curiosity that is there in the back of the mind, but

 

[00:16:40] Omkar: [00:16:40] But that's what it means. And there's always an invisible barrier. Yeah. Like there's always something holding you back. The, the, the that's, what, what, that's one thing that has really changed for me because of these two films. Because, it really showed me that, you know, you, all you need to do is just go out and talk. [00:17:00]

 

[00:17:00]of course there are, curiosities, everybody has curiosities and everybody has different life experiences. You come from different life experiences. I come from different life experiences and everybody wants to know, The other side, the other side of the story. So it's just about going and doing it.

 

[00:17:19] I mean, there's no, like this invisible, invisible barrier, , is really in our minds because, what particularly unreserved, what it, really taught me was that we sort of, I live in a, in a bubble of our own. And, we think that, My problems are real problem, and my issues are real issues, but there are people out there who have their own issues and it's sort of like, broke my illusion of my privilege, you know?

 

[00:17:50] And, yeah, that, that really changed a lot of ways of how I look at life, et cetera.

 

[00:17:57]Naga S: [00:17:57] Right you said that as a [00:18:00] cinematographer, a lot of your work is, you know, making sure that the vision of the director comes through. So what. What role do you play in, in the creative process of filmmaking in documentary filmmaking and why you're interested more in non-fiction rather than going the commercial route, which is like fiction short stories or whatever it is.

 

[00:18:23]Omkar: [00:18:23] it's more of a collaborative process in the sense that, because again, it's basically, it's an art, and every art form, it's, it's very subjective and it changes from person to person. So, working with director a is going to be very different, from working with director B and it, that process also changes from person to person.

 

[00:18:46] So, there is no set process as such, it, it's, it's more like, with which person, is my tuning the best or with which person do I have the best end of understanding? because [00:19:00] with Samarth, what it happens usually on, on when, when we are shooting out there, It's like, he gives me a free hand.

 

[00:19:08]we have an understanding, okay, this is the person that we are shooting with. This is, this is, we get a general idea. We get a general sense of that person's life. And we discussed that. Okay. This seems to be important to this person. This is, what we want to come out of this story. This is what we want the audience to feel.

 

[00:19:29] And then he gives me a fee free hand that, you know, shoot it the way you want to shoot it. and, so the framing, the way we frame it, the way we, compose the shots, the way, you follow a person he gives that completely up to me. and then when we are reviewing the footage, that's when he tells me, you know, I like, I really like how you've shot this.

 

[00:19:51]this could have been shot better. This could have been like that. That's where I kind of get, what he really wants or how he sees the film. and that's how you learn [00:20:00] and grow from there while at the same time, with any other director or say, for example, on a fiction set, With a director where, where we are working on something that is, like say for a short film, there it's completely different because you already know the entire story.

 

[00:20:16]it's down to like the director has seen he knows how he wants the film to play out. Exactly. And so every frame is in collaboration with the director. Everything is calculated. Everything is pre decided and you know that these are the beats that you want to hit. And that's exactly how you want everything to pan out.

 

[00:20:40] So it's more of like a choreography, you know, that, you, you decided this and then it's like 20 people coming together and trying to get that, trying to achieve that exactly how the director had thought of. So, yeah, these are like the differences in the approach [00:21:00] and it changes from person to person.

 

[00:21:01] Even with fiction. There are certain directors who like to give a free hand to the actors and to the cinematographer. they just, you know, explain the scene and what they want, and then you can play it out. So it really differs from person to person. And, in that sense, I personally, right now where I am in life, right now, nonfiction appeals to me more because, there's a certain kind of spontaneity to it.

 

[00:21:27] There's a certain kind of, impulsive nature to it where, , I enjoyed the unpredictability of it that, things can surprise you, every day there's this, there's something new. every person that you meet is going to share something absolutely, unexpected. And in that way, nonfiction documentary films is something that really, really affects me a lot in that sense.

 

[00:21:53] So, yeah, but although I'm not shying away from fiction, I love films. that's [00:22:00] primarily why I decided to do what I'm doing. but right now I am sort of, yeah, concentrating

 

[00:22:06]Naga S: [00:22:06] got it. Got it. So what you, you mentioned that, non-fiction has a tendency to surprise you. So if I, if I may ask, what are some of your biggest surprises, lately where shooting borderlands and Unreserved.

 

[00:22:19]Omkar: [00:22:19] many surprises. I mean, so I can definitely share stories from undeserved because borderlands is still under production. So like from Unreserved, it was like, Since like it was four years ago now when we shot it. And, both of us were relatively, you know, a big nerds. We really didn't have much of a thought.

 

[00:22:42]we were just set out and we just set out and thought, let's leave. Let's see what we, what we get. but, the general compartments, especially, I mean, I, before that I had not traveled much by General honestly and, although I wasn't, skeptical [00:23:00] about it, I was like, okay, fine. It will be a great adventure.

[00:23:03] And, but then it, it really took a lot out of us and, like both of us fell sick, at some point in the journey, we met some purely amazing people. Like if you see in the film, the film opens with this, eight year old man who is doing all kinds of acrobatics in the general compartment.

[00:23:22] And everybody's shocked at how this old man is able to do all of that. then we met, this, lady who is running away from her abusive husband back to her parents' house. favorite part of the story of the film is, this, this man from Orissa. Who was, traveling for work, to find work because he has to earn money because his daughter is, battling with cancer, with brain tumor.

[00:23:50] And, like while he sharing that story, he's crying, he's sharing that story to us. But at the same time, there's a Biryani any seller [00:24:00] who is selling Unda Biryani, standing right next to him. And while he's selling that biryani, he, he literally keeps the box of Biryani on this man's lap while he's crying and sharing his story.

[00:24:13] And the guy selling Unda Biryani like that kind of really, made me, feel the pulse of the way we are as people, you know, like, someone is sharing his most intimate, hurt of his life and someone is just selling Unda Biryani and keeping it on his lap. So, yeah, I mean, these kinds of experiences really affected us a lot and, and again, as I said, these things surprise you because even while while we were shooting, there were a lot of interviews.

[00:24:45] A lot of people we talk to, both of us felt that, okay, this is fine. This is not going to make it into the film, but still, okay. Now we're talking, so let's just keep talking and let's just keep shooting, but you come back and, you're editing and, [00:25:00] You certainly feel that, Oh, this is actually very interesting.

[00:25:03] And the editor feels that, you know, this actually works. And, some, sometimes it also, it also happened that, while shooting, you feel that, okay, this is actually a great interview, but on the edit table, the editor is like, this is not good. So in that sense also, non-fiction really surprises you a lot because not everything will work the way you.

[00:25:26] Expected it to work and, yeah. I hope I'm making sense because I don't know how I answered your question.

[00:25:33]Naga S: [00:25:33] I'm just closing my eyes and thinking about that particular situation and that it is so moving. So, yeah, absolutely. This totally answers my question. So for people who want to start off a career or start in cinematography, so what inputs, or tips would you have for them?

[00:25:51]Omkar: [00:25:51] I am pretty much self-taught in that sense. I mean, yes, I assisted the students in FDI on their [00:26:00] projects, but, that was just like an introduction call kind of a thing for me. I was just introduced to how a set works. how, what, what are the different responsibilities of different people on a set.

[00:26:11]what exactly does the work of a cinematographer entail? So that just kind of gave me an understanding of all those things, but when it comes to actually learning those responsibilities, I pretty much learned most of it. even after I completed, XIC the filmmaking course in XIC because, that goes again, like a generic filmmaking course.

[00:26:32]it didn't, it wasn't exhaustively about cinematography. but I always knew that I wanted to do cinematography and I hadn't basic Canon DSLR camera. so that's where I began from. Honestly, like I just, internet is a huge resource. I mean, anything and everything that you want to learn about, you can learn about it on YouTube now.

 

[00:26:54] Oh, or anywhere on the internet. what I would suggest is, from my experience, if you [00:27:00] have a DSLR, any DSLR, that's great. Or even, I mean, now people are making films on mobile phones, so, and mobile cameras are also absolutely amazing these days. So just get to it. I mean, start learning. our camera operates, basically begin from there.

 

[00:27:19]there are so many resources on the internet to understand that, to learn that, so begin with, begin from there, understand how a camera operates and then just start making your own films. there is no other way to learn the craft of filmmaking, because the more films you make, the more mistakes you will make, and the more mistakes you will make, you will know I don't want to repeat these mistakes for the next project.

 

[00:27:46] I'm going to make new mistakes. That's what I think. my biggest, takeaway has been from the past 10 years of my life. And, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of books on filmmaking and cinematography, [00:28:00] especially, notes on cinematography is one of my favorite, books, about the craft of cinematography.

 

[00:28:06]and there again, just, I think the best way to do it is just start making your own stuff. you can learn. the way I did, you can talk to someone who, is a photographer to understand the basics of camera and take it from there. But, yeah, I mean, cinematography is something that you have to do to understand, you can read and, watch as much as theory as you want to.

 

[00:28:35]but unless you start doing it yourself, unless you have a camera in your hand and you start taking images, only then you will understand how to go about it.

 

[00:28:46]Naga S: [00:28:46] Got it. So I guess a record, expand it analogy to anything, right? Because practical experience is the best way to learn and, you know, no matter what, what you do, it's always important that you try it out yourself [00:29:00] or. Come up with the project

 

[00:29:01] Omkar: [00:29:01] True. True. Absolutely very true. I mean, I actually, like, as I said earlier, before 2014, my life was just watching films at that time. I really, thought that I'm wasting my life away watching films, but today, when I actually don't get the time to watch films, as much as I used to.

 

[00:29:21] I really feel that was actually my basic education, where watching so many films. It really, gave me a lot. I mean, today when I am working and we are on a set, It really helps me a lot when a director says, you know, that film, that kind of a look that kind of a shot that's what I'm aiming for.

 

[00:29:43] And you just remember it and you're like, Oh yes, I know. And now I, now I get what you're saying. So that really helped. and then, you know, the hands-on experience, the hands-on knowledge of how to work with the camera and how to work with lighting. like watching [00:30:00] films is the base that's where, like that's the base of, getting into filmmaking, any department, and then your expertise is what you build on top of it.

 

[00:30:10]Naga S: [00:30:10] Very well said. , I totally agree with you. I guess the takeaway from that is , always do things on your own and, see how you can implement these things. And also that nothing ever goes to waste, right. Because what you thought was something that you were just sitting at home and chilling, but actually that informed your worldview.

 

[00:30:29] And, I'm sure that will be a, a great moment to experience when a director or someone tells you that. I want this movie in the short and you're like, yes, I exactly know what they're talking about.

 

[00:30:40]as we reach the far end of the episode, so how does it feel to be on the passionate people podcast and, where can people reach out to you?

 

[00:30:48]Omkar: [00:30:48] this has been great. I mean, I never expected someone ask to ask me to talk to them about cinematography, especially so early in my life, in my career. but yeah. Thank you so [00:31:00] much for having me and, sorry, what was your second question?

 

[00:31:05]Naga S: [00:31:05] where can people reach out to you in case they want to talk? Or there's, there's a project they want to collaborate with you on, or they just want to say hi and they love the episode.

 

[00:31:13] Omkar: [00:31:13] So you can reach out to me on Instagram. My handle is Cine Blue. That is C I N E B L U E a. That's where anybody can see, just say hi. Yeah.

 

[00:31:26]Naga S: [00:31:26] Right. I'll also include the links for a undeserved and your Instagram handle on the show

 

[00:31:32] Omkar: [00:31:32] you so much.

 

[00:31:34] Naga S: [00:31:34] Thank you. Thanks. I'm glad it's been a pleasure

Book Suggestion - Notes on Cinematography

 

Reach out to Omkar Diwekar -

Twitter - https://twitter.com/MishterApu

Website - https://www.omkardivekar.com/

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

 

Media Suggestions -

Watch Unreserved on YouTube and Subscribe to Camera and Shorts for more

 

Middle Class Gap Year Guide - by Naga Subramanya

 

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at [email protected].

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organization.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For this episode, Naga is in conversation with Jane Carter a business coach with a special focus on the obstacles in monetizing a business, the narrative in our head that holds us back and how this applies to creators / passionprenuers in the Creator Economy and how they can re-draft that narrative.

 

Creator Tools - Mastermind Group -

Find your nearest mastermind group here - https://www.meetup.com/topics/masterminds/ 

 

Reach out to Jane Carter - www.janecartercoaching.com

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )

 

Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

 

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at [email protected].

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organization.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus. All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To kick off Season 3, Allison Dillard who used to be an adjunct professor of mathematics talk to Naga on her journey to be an independent online creator and solopreneur.

Creator Tools - Kajabi -

For the people who are wondering, Allison runs her entire online course on Kajabi. If you are interested to know more about Kajabi, you should check out Li Jin’s Substack - https://li.substack.com/p/interview-with-kajabis-cpo-the-secret

Book References - 

Crush Math Now by Allison Dillard

Raise your Math Grade by Allison Dillard

 

Reach out to Allison -

https://allisonlovesmath.mykajabi.com/

 

Reach out to Naga – 

Twitter - @n1n3stuff / @PassionPeop1 (https://twitter.com/ThePassionPeop1 )
Facebook - The Passion People Podcast

You can follow us and leave us feedback on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @eplogmedia,

For advertising/partnerships send you can send us an email at [email protected].

If you like this show, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts, so other people can find us. You can also find us on https://www.eplog.media/thepassionpeoplepodcast

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on all the shows produced and distributed by Ep.Log Media are personal to the host and the guest of the shows respectively and with no intention to harm the sentiments of any individual/organization.

The said content is not obscene or blasphemous or defamatory of any event and/or person deceased or alive or in contempt of court or breach of contract or breach of privilege, or in violation of any provisions of the statute, nor hurt the sentiments of any religious groups/ person/government/non-government authorities and/or breach or be against any declared public policy of any nation or state.

 

Sound Attribution and Credits - Music from Pipo and Wowa(you should check out their music on Spotify here - https://open.spotify.com/artist/6zZPxLiRfbGUnoEAJmfJJN) from Unminus.

All music other than the jingle on the episode is under the CC0 License and downloaded from freesound.org , freemusicarchive.org and unminus.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.