Welcome to the final conversation for 2021, featuring globally renowned doyen of regenerative agriculture, Charles Massy. This best-selling author of Call of the Reed Warbler has recently written for Paul Hawken’s NYT best-seller Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation. And perhaps less predictably, he’s also been busy writing a new kids’ book. It’s called The Last Dragon. It’s a beautiful work of art, thanks to illustrator Mandy Foot, and the imagery Charlie conjures of an elusive fellow dweller in the land he calls home. And there’s an even bigger story behind how this came to be his next volume, and why we might see more like it.

I also introduce this episode with some great news on two key stories we’ve been following on the podcast – the donkeys at Kachana Station, and efforts to protect Ningaloo Reef and Exmouth Gulf. And I close with some last words from me for 2021.

This episode marks what would have been the 78th birthday of the bloke who introduced me to systems thinking and living 21 years ago, the late Professor Frank Fisher. This Aussie legend became a treasured mentor of mine, and a great mate. Last year, we marked the occasion with Allan Savory on the podcast. The year before, another globally influential systems thinker in Hazel Henderson. Continuing the tradition, I’m very happy to be introducing Charlie this year.

This conversation was recorded across some very remote Country (mostly without a hitch!) on 19 November 2021 at 6DBY Derby Media Aboriginal Corporation in WA, with Charlie at home at Severn Park in NSW.

Title slide: The Last Dragon himself, illustrated by Mandy Foot (from the book).

Music:
The System, by The Public Opinion Afro Orchestra.

The tune accompanying the introduction is by Jeremiah Johnson.

Beethoven’s Piano Sonata no.15 in D major op.28 "Pastoral" - I. Allegro, by Karine Gilanyan (sourced from the Free Music Archive).

Find more:
The book, The Last Dragon.

My conversation with Charlie at Severn Park in late 2018.

There’s also a live conversation

Send us a text

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This is an excerpt from episode 102 (part 2) featuring the last 20 minutes or so of my conversation with Nyul Nyul Traditional Custodian, Bruno Dann, and partner Marion, at Twin Lakes Cultural Park. These 20 minutes are a real highlight. We pick up the conversation with evidence of the original circular economy, when being shown a fig leaf that feels like sandpaper. We go on to talk about the best of the regenerative outcomes they’ve observed at Twin Lakes, the famed international companies they’ve turned down, and the turning point for them almost a decade ago. Then it’s the profound experience of arriving at the old ceremonial grounds.

Title slide: Bruno, Anthony and Marion walking out through regenerated Country to the old ceremonial grounds (pic: Olivia Cheng).

Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.

Find more:
The rest of our conversation starting with Part 1, ‘Twin Lakes Cultural Park: A return to Country, restoration & incredible bush products success’.

The rest of this 2nd & final part of episode 102, ‘People Want the Story: Heading out to the ceremonial grounds’.

And tune into the Extra with Marion on her remarkable journey from Sydney to the Kimberley.

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Welcome to part 2 of episode 102 as we join Nyul Nyul Traditional Custodian Bruno Dann, and partner Marion, on a walk out to the old people’s camping, hunting and ceremonial grounds. To even write these words, I feel a wave rise within me. The conversations spring from the old trails we tread, connecting back in with some of the threads from part 1, and charting the journey of how Twin Lakes has emerged as such a compelling story.

I’ve experimented a bit with this episode too. I’ve recorded Bruno and Marion as they were situated physically around me. This means you’ll hear Bruno in your right ear, and Marion in your left. See how it feels.

So join us as we gather back at camp at Twin Lakes Cultural Park, with Bruno and Marion. For a story that further highlights the enormous possibilities for regenerative economies and cultures right across the Kimberley and beyond.

Part 2 of this episode was recorded on-location at Twin Lakes Cultural Park, on Nyul Nyul Country, on the Dampier Peninsula in the West Kimberley region of Western Australia, on 6 August 2021.

Title slide: Anthony and Bruno by the old ceremonial grounds at Twin Lakes Cultural Park (pic: Olivia Cheng).

Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.

Find more:
If you’ve come here first, tune into part 1 of this episode: ‘Twin Lakes Cultural Park: A return to Country, restoration and incredible bush products success’. You’ll find a link out to Twin Lakes Cultural Park in the show notes there too. And an extensive selection of photos.

Have a listen to the special Extra with Marion too – hers is a brilliant story in its own right.

Send us a text

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This extra to episode 102 features an impromptu conversation I had with Marion by the fire on our first night there, before the morning walks. It wasn’t intended to be recorded - I’d just been recording some ambient sounds when we got talking. We chat about Marion’s life, and some of her perspective on this incredible story that none of them saw coming – though an elder had prophesised it.

Marion’s is a remarkable story in itself, with generations of her family steeped in achievement and adventure, and her journey to this place charted through a series of extraordinary and unlikely encounters. I’m very happy she gave me permission to share this with you. So join us by the camp fire at Twin Lakes.

Note: because this wasn't intended to be recorded, there is some swearing on occasion - just in case you'd rather not have little people hear that.

And among the other voices you might hear in the background, Marion’s sister Fiona chimes in when talking of their childhood.

Title slide: Marion at Twin Lakes Cultural Park (pic: Anthony James).

Find more:
You can hear more of Marion in conversation, with Bruno and I, starting with Part 1 of the main episode: ‘Twin Lakes Cultural Park: A return to Country, restoration & incredible bush products success’. You’ll find a link out to Twin Lakes in the show notes there too. And a selection of photos. 

And stay tuned for part 2 of this episode out next week, featuring an incredibly moving visit to the old hunting and ceremonial grounds, still so clearly etched into the land and spirit of this place. 

Send us a text

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Bruno Dann is a Traditional Custodian of Nyul Nyul Country, and together with partner Marion, they’ve spent a little over 20 years creating the incredible success story that is Twin Lakes Cultural Park. Lying to the north of Broome on the Dampier Peninsula in far north Western Australia, Twin Lakes had been stripped of its First Peoples, and badly neglected. But Bruno still found a way to learn from the old people on this Country when he was a boy, and later returned as an older man.

While facing the heartbreak of loss here, he set about regenerating his Country, its culture, and abundant wild harvest. Together with Marion, and in the face of all kinds of challenges, they’ve forged a successful business selling a growing range of bush products, and employing hundreds of people. And all through a series of unexpected connections with people and companies they regard more as family – doing business in a way where business doesn’t quite feel like the right word.

Bruno and Marion haven’t been on a podcast before. So what a privilege this was. Essentially, the three of us just put microphones on while we walked Country on two consecutive mornings. What emerged on both mornings was so distinct, rare and profound, I had to share both with you. So this episode will come to you in two parts. What you’ll hear today is our conversation on the first morning, as this cherished elder guides us through once again thriving Country. It’s an enthralling tour of land, sea, plants, animals, fire, business, politics, life stories and spirit.

So join us on Country for more of a sense of what’s at stake here right now, what’s working so well, and how we can back and explore more opportunities like this together – especially in a fraught native products space where new ways are sorely needed.

Note: the Jock they refer to is of Master Chef fame. And while the wind plays a little havoc at times, and Bruno was suffering a bit of a cough, I don't think you'll find those things diminish the experience of this one.

More on Bruno: he is also an Indigenous Artist, Indigenous Landcare and Culture Specialist and the first Chairperson of Manowan Aboriginal Corporation.

This episode was recorded  at Twin Lakes Cultural Park on Nyul Nyul Country, on the Dampier Peninsula in the West Kimberley region of Western Australia, on 5 August 2021.

With thanks to filmmaker & podcast subscriber Todd Delfs for introducing us to Bruno & Marion.

Title slid

Send us a text

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Eva Orner is an Academy and Emmy award winning filmmaker. While she lives in the US these days, she’s from Australia, and was here when this country burned so horrifically in the bushfires of 2019 and 2020. Like a lot of us, Eva was struck not just by the fires, but by the defensive political intransigence that persists to this day. So she joined forces with a team that includes the production company of fellow countrywoman Cate Blanchett, to produce and direct the new documentary film Burning. It recently premiered in Toronto, Europe, COP26 and Sydney, where it picked up the Sustainable Future Award.

The Guardian describes it as: ‘one of those rare documentaries that boils your blood and rattles your bones, leaving viewers longing for and (hopefully) demanding political change…. it is the documentary Australia and – I think it is fair to say – the entire world deserves…’

To tell you the truth, I’m often wary of watching films like this. I partly feel like I don’t need to rub my nose in the disasters, given I spend my days immersed in all this. But I found it a brilliant film. Unsurprisingly, I guess. Eva is a master of her craft. But especially for how it emerges from the stories of those involved, to a deepening sense of the humanity and care most people share for each other and their places, and the sheer guts and courage that can inspire us to change our hopelessly detached political culture and related trajectory.

I found where we end up here to be particularly powerful and instructive, courtesy of Bruce Pascoe’s place in the film, and its multiple connections to the previous episode with Chris Henggeler. On how we’re all challenged to learn anew now, in a time of degraded landscape and climate, including how to holistically manage burning.

The film blurb reads: Burning takes an unflinching look at Australia’s catastrophic ‘Black Summer’ bushfires, as well as government inaction on climate change and media perceptions, posing questions about how we move forward as a nation to ensure this piece of history is never repeated.

This episode was recorded at the Derby Media Aboriginal Corporation, with Eva in South Dakota shooting her next film, on 3 November 2021 (Australian time).

Title slide: Eva Orner on set (pic: supplied).

You'll see a selection of other photos from the film and its making on the episode website (all pics supplied).

Music:

Send us a text

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This is an excerpt from episode 100 (part 2) featuring the last 15 minutes or so of my conversation with pioneering regenerative pastoralist, Chris Henggeler, on-location at Kachana Station.

In some senses, our entire visit to Kachana is distilled into this excerpt. We pick up our conversation where I ask Chris what he needs. A nice initial exchange gives way to some profoundly moving reflections on the value of a life. And that sets up the last minutes of our time together, talking about the temporary stay-of-execution on the donkeys, and how excited he remains about the opportunities for the next generations of land doctors.

Title slide: the incredible before and after photographs of the homestead and surrounds at Kachana Station (pic: from a booklet compiled by the family when Allan Savory visited).

Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.

Find more:
You can hear the rest of our conversation starting with the main episode, ‘Wanted Land Doctors: Rehydrating landscapes, reversing desertification and rebuilding the wealth of country’.

You can follow the rest of our time together on this visit with the special Extra out to where the donkeys do their work.

And with the rest of the second and final part of episode 100.

Send us a text

Support the show

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Today’s final stanza from our visit to Kachana Station features a very personal conversation with the pioneering regenerative pastoralist, Chris Henggeler. It felt akin to a kind of life statement in the end. It wasn’t scripted that way, of course. It just seemed to be the culmination of having spent ten rich days together, which also included the looming deadline to shoot the donkeys, Chris’s birthday, and the birth of his third grandchild Ava.

We end up talking about things like the viability of regeneration, true wealth, and changing tack. And as Chris looks to hand over the reins, he invites the next generations of land doctors to realise the ultimate potential of the restoration of life’s self-organising processes everywhere.

Join us, as we sit down at the homestead and press record on our last conversation from this visit - a portrait of abundance against a profile of extinction.

Dedicated to Ava, the third grandchild of Chris and Jacqueline, who was born while we were at Kachana.

Title slide: Chris Henggeler, as a younger bloke (supplied).

Music:
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.

Find more:
You can hear more of Chris and I in conversation in the main episode: ‘Wanted Land Doctors: Re-hydrating landscapes, reversing desertification & rebuilding wealth’. 

You’ll find a series of links in the show notes there too (including to a special Extra out where the donkeys do their work). And an extensive selection of photos.

Send us a text

Support the show

The RegenNarration podcast is independent, ad-free and freely available, thanks to the generous support of listeners like you. If you too value what you hear, please consider joining them.

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The day after our extended conversation in the gorge, featured in the main episode, we headed out to where the donkeys do their work. As mentioned in that main episode, it’s crunch time in many ways for this great story of regeneration. And by extension, for all of us, as a shoot order hangs over the donkeys’ heads. So we head out to take a closer look for ourselves at how the Henggelers are managing these wild donkeys for regeneration.

It’s a fascinating deep dive into how this works, with some moving exchanges on the sentience of these creatures, and the possibilities available to us if we can find a way to work differently with them. And with each other.

Let’s jump in the beat up old ute, and head over to the upper ranges for a walk.

Dedicated to Ava, Chris and Jacqueline’s third grandchild, who was born on the morning of this conversation.

Title slide: Chris Henggeler and Anthony James on an upper range where the donkeys do their work (pic: Olivia Cheng).

Find more:
You can hear more of Chris and I in conversation, from the days prior to this journey to the donkeys, in the main episode: ‘Wanted Land Doctors: Re-hydrating landscapes, reversing desertification & rebuilding wealth’. You’ll find a series of links in the show notes there too. And an extensive selection of photos (I’ve added a few more today too, from where we were talking in this Extra).

You can also hear the 2nd and final part to this series at Kachana, out next week.

Send us a text

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Tens of millions of ‘pests’ degrade lands and waters in Australia alone – pigs, goats, camels, buffalos, donkeys. Cruel, wasteful, expensive, mostly futile and often counter-productive culling programs are no solution. But what if it didn’t have to be this way? What if some of those large wild herbivores could be harnessed towards regeneration?

This is the story of a family that has regenerated an incredible patch of country, and for 20 years that has incorporated and relied on wild donkeys. The bond these animals share with this Station family is clear. But the state department recently ordered the family to gun them down. It’s a painful flashpoint. One of the great stories of regeneration is on the line, and by extension, the potential for next generations to build on it, further restoring landscapes at scale for all our benefit.

Chris Henggeler and his family manage Kachana Station in a remote pocket of the East Kimberley, only accessible by foot or air. They took responsibility for this desertified and abandoned country, and have achieved so much. Yet with still vast lands desertifying around them, and so much opportunity to build on models like Kachana, Chris gave a presentation earlier this year called ‘Wanted Land Doctors’. It was a powerful invitation for the next generations to join the fray, and how rest of us can help them do it.

The model areas at Kachana feel like an oasis. But imagine this being the norm.  As Judith Schwartz, renowned author of The Reindeer Chronicles, says: we could be a world leader off the back of developments like this.

My family spent a couple of days here back in 2018, and felt transformed. We spent ten days this time, to delve more deeply and see for myself whether the donkey shoot order is a necessary evil, or as Chris argues, an enormous error in regeneration, at a time when we can least afford it.

We start here heading out in the old Cessna light plane, before a short evening stroll on arrival &, come morning, an extended walk in the gorge behind the homestead.

This episode was recorded at Kachana Station in the East Kimberley, in the far north east of Western Australia, throughout the week of 13 September 2021.

Title slide: Chris Henggeler on our gorge walk at Kachana Station (pic: Anthony James). See more photos on the episode web page.

Music:
The System, by the Public Opinion Afro Orches

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