The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

Promised Land is a limited series exploring the moral, spiritual, and political challenges presented by the Israel-Hamas war. Host Mike Cosper (The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill) takes listeners with him to locations across the US, Israel, and Palestine, bringing you into the homes, lives, and stories of people for whom this conflict is their everyday experience.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bulletin is a podcast for Christians seeking insights into the events, questions, and people that are shaping their world. Subscribe to The Bulletin and join Mike Cosper and Russell Moore every Friday morning as they consider the intersection of faith, culture and spiritual formation.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

More than two years since producer Mike Cosper began recording interviews for the show, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill returns with its most poignant episode yet -- a road trip to Seattle to stand in the spaces where Mars Hill Church began. 

This epilogue of the critically-acclaimed podcast sends Cosper and executive producer Erik Petrik on a trip down memory lane, visiting the buildings and church members who formed the vibrant community that would one day fall apart. From Seattle living rooms crammed with chairs to an empty sanctuary slated for demolition, discover afresh the mystery of God working in broken places. And, as you see how “time humbles and reveals all,” let the story of Mars Hill compel you toward truth not trends, grace not grandeur. Come, meet the people and places that have remained, marked indelibly with love for the gospel and for Seattle. Meet those who never left.

As this series concludes, a special thanks to: Joy Beth Smith, Andrea Palpant Dilley, Morgan Lee, Russell Moore, Ted Olsen, Daniel Silliman and Kate Shellnutt. Thank you, especially to Tim Dalrymple and Erik Petrik, Kate Siefker and to Sarah and the Cosper girls. Thank you to the members of Mars Hill Church, especially, Wendy Alsup, Jesse Bryan, Sutton Turner, Tim Smith, Aaron Gray, Jen Smidt and Ben Vandermeer.

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Associate Producers: Azurae Phelps and Joy Beth Smith

Director of Operations: Matt Stevens

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley

Editor in Chief: Russell Moore

Closing Song: "Satisfied in You" by Brian Eichelberger

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When author and therapist Dan Allender met Mark Driscoll in 1998, he hoped the two might share building space for their respective ministries. While conversations remained cordial, it didn't take long for Allender to realize he and Mark aimed to build entirely different institutions -- Allender, a school for healing and trauma care, and Mark, a faith community with the aspirations of Babel. Narcissism would keep the two from building on a common foundation.

Thirty years later, Allender joins host Mike Cosper for an honest conversation about where that narcissism led and how Mars Hill Church and the city of Seattle suffered under its dogmatism. With incisive yet gentle wisdom, Allender opens the aperture beyond Mars Hill to discuss how trauma creates wounds on which narcissism thrives, how the numbness of anger can lead to isolation, and how the very real joy of spiritual connection can leave hurting people confused and ashamed after the structures they've trusted crumble.

If you've experienced spiritual abuse or you desire deeper honesty and humility in ministry, this bonus episode offers a foundational conversation about how to face trauma, how to identify unhealthy leadership patterns, and how to resist the siren call of sin that lures Christians to greatness without cost.

For more information about Dan Allender’s work, visit theallendercenter.org

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Editor: Mark Owens

Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill tells the stories of myriad hurts committed in the name of Christ and his church. Real pain inflicted on real people has consequences; and, for many in the Mars Hill community, the ripple effects have been long lasting. Individuals' spiritual trauma has born out in subsequent church relationships and even personal spiritual practices like Bible study and prayer.

In a culture enamored with therapeutic lingo, it can be hard to determine what true trauma is. Spend any time on social media, and you'll find claims of trauma and invocations against toxic people, especially those associated with the church. Exhorted by Scripture to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves," how can we discern this kind of abuse when we experience it? How can we create organizations that are hospitable to the hurting? And, what can we do to recover?

In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper sits down with therapist Aundi Kolber to investigate the roots of spiritual trauma and chart a path forward after pain. Committed to an integrated view of humans as divine image bearers, Kolber explains the necessity of embodiment in our spiritual lives and offers practical tips for starting the process of repair after trauma.

You can learn more about Aundi and her work at www.aundikolber.com

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Rick Szuecs

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bonus Episode: A Conversation With Tim Keller

Mike Cosper sits down with Tim Keller for reflections on leadership, the troubles with networks, and the essential need for communion with God.

Tim Keller moved to New York City in 1989 to plant Redeemer Presbyterian Church. In the three decades since, he’s become one of the most influential voices in American evangelicalism. Several of his books have become bestsellers. City to City, the church planting network he co-founded, has planted more than 800 churches. He also co-founded The Gospel Coalition (TGC), an alliance of pastors and theologians with a shared theological vision. Today, TGC hosts events around the world, draws thousands to its national conferences, and publishes resources online that serve millions of readers, viewers, and listeners.

In this conversation, Keller reflects on the challenges of movements, denominations, and networks, as well as his connections with Mark Driscoll, both at the Spanish River Church Network and in The Gospel Coalition. He talks about the limits of institutions, as well as the limits of accountability, and how the only reliable way to guard your heart in ministry is a wholehearted commitment to the pursuit of God in prayer.

This conversation was recorded in early May, 2022.

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Editor: TJ Hester

Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Building an institution on celebrity power, charisma, and a spirit of grandiosity attracts a lot of people, money and a certain kind of cache for everyone involved. It helps them all to feel like they're part of something that's big — a movement providing a sense of meaning and purpose. But too often, these movements crumble, and those inside are crushed by the process.

It's a pattern that extends far beyond Mars Hill, into the realm of politics, academia, media, and more. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper speaks to Yuval Levin and Roger Berkowitz about the connections between the failure of our cultural institutions and the phenomena of rootlessness and loneliness, exploring how these related phenomena create the preconditions for charismatic leaders and corruption, He also talks to Russell Moore about what change looks like in the ruins, starting small, and the power of remembering our death.

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Host and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Editor: TJ Hester

Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mars Hill’s music grew out of the same counter-cultural ethos that defined the rest of its ministry. Most of the church’s founding members thought Christian contemporary music was too saccharine and polished for their tastes, and what evolved at Mars Hill reflected the gritty and dark sounds of the city around them. But like many other facets of the Mars Hill story, there was much behind the music. Often selected for their charisma and talent, Mars Hill bands found that few cared about the condition of their souls or the posture of their spirits. 

Chad Gardner became a worship leader later in the church’s history, having grown up listening to the church’s music. His eventual decision to leave would mean sacrificing community and intellectual property rights over his band’s contributions to the ministry. Some band members, damaged by various spiritual abuses, would leave the faith altogether.

In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper sits down with Chad Gardner, worship leader at Mars Hill, to hear the hard and beautiful stories of the music that defined the community. Peek backstage for a glimpse of what worship leadership meant in this alternative church culture, and hear stories behind some of Kings Kaleidoscope’s albums. Finally, find out why Chad told us, “I never wanted to do a duet with Mark.”

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper

Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Social Media: Kate Lucky

Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Theme Song: “Sticks and Stones” Kings Kaleidoscope

Additional Music: Brad Currah, Red Letter, Team Strike Force, The Sing Team, Citizens, and Kings Kaleidoscope

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As production of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill progressed, another story was developing—inside the walls of Christianity Today. On March 15, 2022, CT released the results of an independent report from Guidepost Solutions, which outlined institutionally tolerated sexual harassment and misconduct along with failures in reporting and monitoring. To the heartbreak of many, some of the unhealthy behaviors that were being explored on this podcast were endemic at CT as well.

If the story of Mars Hill is about more than a particular church, we must consider how the institutions we love and serve model similar failures. We must be willing to pursue justice and submit ourselves to the costly work of repentance and restoration.

In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper turns over the microphone to pivotal voices in the CT investigation, including whistleblower and online managing editor Andrea Palpant Dilley and CEO Tim Dalrymple. Learn how CT’s informal HR policies hurt the organization and how a “ministry as family” attitude enabled predatory behavior. Listen as well to how CT plans to move forward as they seek to respond with transparency, fairness, and accountability.

Links: 

Timothy Dalrymple’s Editorial, “We Fell Short in Protecting Our Employees”

Daniel Silliman’s Reporting, “Sexual Harassment Went Unchecked at Christianity Today”

Guidepost Solutions Independent Assessment 

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive Producer: Erik Petrik

Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper 

Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith

Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker

Graphic Design: Bryan Todd

Editorial Consultant: Kate Shellnutt

Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Five days after resigning as lead pastor of Mars Hill Church, Mark Driscoll was once again in front of a crowd—this time, a packed conference of pastors who offered him a standing ovation in support. It only took 474 days for him to announce he was planting a new church in Scottsdale, Arizona.

But while Driscoll wielded his own force of personality to get as much distance from Mars Hill as possible, life in Seattle was a different story. A confused and hurting church was displaced, hundreds of people were out of their jobs, and the fiercest critics of the church practically threw a party.

In our series finale, we follow a few of those threads, which led some people to new ministries, others to new careers, and still others out of the church altogether. We’ll revisit the legacy of Driscoll’s teaching on gender, and we’ll ask whether or not he really preached good news and freedom.

We’ll also look for the presence of Christ, working in surprising and unseen ways to bring beauty out of the ashes of what was once Mars Hill Church.

As we end 2021, we’d love to invite you to join us as we continue to try to tell stories like this. Subscriptions are a great way to do that, and we’d love if you considered us with your end-of-year giving.

“The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today

Executive produced by Erik Petrik

Produced, written, and edited by Mike Cosper

Joy Beth Smith is our associate producer.

Music and sound design by Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper

Our theme song for this finale is “Resplendent” by Bill Mallonee and the Vigilantes of Love.

The closing song this week is “All My Favorite People” by Over the Rhine.

Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer

Graphic design by Bryan Todd

Social media by Kara Bettis and Morgan Lee

Editorial consulting by Andrea Palpant Dilley

CT’s Editor in Chief is Timothy Dalrymple.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices