THE RUNNING EFFECT PODCAST

Dominic sits down with Carter Cutting, Isaac Hedengren and Tayvon Kitchen a day after the Cougars opened their season in Terre Haute. It starts as a debate—Jakob versus Kerr; whether Hawker belongs in that tier; whether one down year should count against anybody—and the three of them push back hard enough that Dominic ends up defending his take alone.

From there it turns into the story behind New Standard, the channel they built after an indoor season of workouts none of them thought were possible. Coach Eyestone hated the cameras at first, and the phrase itself came out of watching teenagers run times that made the old ceilings look silly.

Tayvon finally talks about the workouts everyone used to whisper about: post-race 800s, sub-two splits, a coach who barely looked up. Hedengren goes the other direction—41 miles a week as a high school senior, a jogging-stroller childhood, a dad who ran for Eyestone in the 90s, and a sister who beat him in every workout. They get into the Belgian draft horse math that explains why teammates pull more together than alone; the realities of an increasingly international NCAA; and a sleep bet that ends in a bleached mullet.

Plus, speed suits on grass, why a miler still cares about cross country, what a November-focused build looks like at BYU, and a hypothetical dinner for Gordon Ramsay that nobody wants to cook alone.

Tap into the Carter Cutting, Isaac Hedengren and Tayvon Kitchen Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Carter Cutting: @carter.cutting

Isaac Hedengren: @isaachedengren

Tayvon Kitchen: @tayvonkitchen 

Group account: @newstandard_tc

Alex Hutchinson ran his 1500-meter breakthrough because a timekeeper called the splits wrong.

He’d been stuck at just over four minutes for three years. Then, in one indoor race, a mistimed clock told him he was running three seconds faster than he was—and he ran 3:52, then 3:49, then 3:44 across the next two months. His old coach went through the logs looking for the reason. There wasn’t one.

That story sits at the center of this conversation with the physicist-turned-journalist behind Endure and the Sweat Science column at Outside. Alex is a self-described data guy who spent a career chasing what’s measurable and kept colliding with the part of running that isn’t: the days something shifts, the races where belief outperforms any supplement. He walks through the ice bath study that separated the cold water from the story we tell ourselves about it, the self-talk intervention that produced an 18 percent gain in time to exhaustion, and why he’s careful about debunking things that work because we believe in them.

They also get into Breaking2 versus the Kipyegon sub-4 attempt, why times keep sliding and what that does to a high schooler, coaches who invent splits mid-workout and the trust that makes that work, and the two years Alex spent fighting his college program before deciding to run the workouts as written.

At 50, he’s back racing masters cross country, for his teammates. They also touch on Zátopek, Paula Radcliffe, and why you should never, ever take a PR for granted.

Tap into the Alex Hutchinson Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

X (formerly Twitter): @sweatscience

Substack: Sweat Science 

Instagram: @sweat_science 

Facebook: Sweat Science 

Official Website: AlexHutchinson.net

Hans Troyer led Western States for 62 miles, DNF’d, and still calls the day a win. 

Eight weeks later he was on the CCC podium, which tells you most of what you need to know about how he metabolizes a bad race. Dominic welcomes back the 26-year-old for the first time since before his 2025 Western States debut, and Hans admits the stretch since has felt like three years crammed into one.

He traces the self-belief back to Bandera in 2024, when a few coachless months in Georgia were enough to prove to himself he could hang with anyone. On Western States, he is unsparing and unbothered at once: he went in giving himself a ten percent chance to win, came out believing it was eighty, and wrote every lesson down in a notebook. 

He breaks down what the Alps taught him at CCC: from the climbs that go straight up to the hiking and poles he had never practiced with.

The training talk is specific. Hans walks through his jump to 120-130 mile weeks peaking at 145, up to 36,000 feet of vert before CCC, the move to Boulder in March, and the sweat test that revealed he had spent years taking in triple the sodium he needed. He defends his much-criticized diet with a simple argument about aid stations, explains why he fuels every run over ninety minutes like it is race day, and leaves young runners with carbs, consistency, and a reminder to enjoy their lives.

Tap into the Hans Troyer Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Instagram:  @hanstroyer 

YouTube: @HansIsYoungAndFit

Nobody quits while they're ahead.

Alex Ostberg is back for the guys’ monthly walk through of The Rundown, and this one runs from the foundations of the sport to the psychology of knowing when to walk away.

They open with ten things Alex wishes he knew as a high school runner—the talk that started this whole collaboration, and one he still finds himself repeating to professionals a decade later. Why consistency beats perfection. Why a plateau isn't a bug in the program. What quietly rots a team culture from the inside. And here’s the line worth writing down: you don't rise to the occasion, you fall back on your preparation.

Then a runner's guide to protein: what this macronutrient is actually doing in a body that has nowhere to store it; what the science now says about the anabolic window and how much you can use in one sitting; where the real daily target comes from; and why the animal-versus-plant question is messier than either camp wants to admit. Dominic pushes back hard on the plant-based side, and Riley Witt's anti-electrolyte take gets its moment too.

And then the hard one: why almost nobody quits on time; how sunk cost keeps runners in workouts, seasons, careers andrelationships long past their expiration date; and the two tools Alex uses to make that call before emotion takes the wheel.

They close on a big weekend for Alex's athletes—a 1-2 at the US 20K Championships, a world title, and a marathon debut coming in Chicago.

Tap into the The Rundown Recap Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Rocky Hansen spent the offseason quietly begging Habtom Samuel not to turn pro.He lost to Samuel twice—the NCAA cross country final in November and the outdoor 5,000 in June—and his reaction to Samuel leaving wasn't a relief. It was a feeling of disappointment at losing the rematch. That instinct sits at the center of this conversation, recorded a few weeks into Rocky's final collegiate season.They get into the race he's proudest of, which he also lost. Samuel got him by a second and a half, and he calls it the best tactical race of his NCAA career.There's a lot here about the margins: the heat stroke at ACCs that finally sent him to a nutritionist; sleep and naps around 6:30 a.m. practices; the slowest summer buildup he's ever done; and six weeks in Europe not being Rocky the Runner. He also makes the case that the happy runner is the fast runner, by way of an engineering professor who once assigned him homework to have fun on purpose.He's candid about last fall, when Wake Forest returned most of a seventh-place team, assumed the podium was theirs, and watched the fire go out. And he's thoughtful about what the NCAA has become: a pro league, in his words, and one he loves competing in while recognizing the high schoolers it has squeezed out.Plus: Terre Haute, mud, and why he won't put a number on November.Tap into the Rocky Hansen Special. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.S H O W  N O T E S   -The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffzBehind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZLuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20Instagram: @rocky_hansen_

Jordan Hasay Hogan never officially retired.

She was the most hyped teenager in American distance running. She was a Foot Locker champion as a freshman, she acquired eight California state titles, was an Olympic Trials 1500m finalist at sixteen—and then went on to run a 2:20:57 marathon in Chicago. In this conversation, she opens up about the Nike Oregon Project years in a way almost nobody has.

She walks Dominic through the actual training: 115-mile weeks, 25-mile long runs with fifteen at six-minute pace on an altitude treadmill before ten more miles at marathon pace, and Alberto Salazar's habit of tacking on surprise reps until athletes cracked. The centerpiece is the session she still calls the hardest of her life—a morning tempo, then 400s at 58 seconds that were supposed to be four and became ten, with Galen Rupp jumping in to pace, and Jordan averaging 58.7.

Underneath all of it is faith. 

The priest who traveled with the group to majors, the wrist rosary she wore in every marathon, and the Catholic athletes' conference where she met Alberto by what she can only call fate. She explains the Kobe tribute kit at the 2020 Trials, the comment he left on her Instagram after she tore her hamstring, and how studying his mental game shaped the way she coaches today.

On a comeback she's candid: most likely done, maybe one percent, and it would take a miracle. The fulfillment now comes from Hogan Performance and from her son, Micah.

Tap into the Jordan Hasay Hogan Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Instagram: @jordanhasay

Colin Sahlman finished 151st at NCAA cross country as a freshman. Four years later he left college with three national titles.Colin returns to the show for the first time since high school, now a Nike athlete training with Swoosh TC in Flagstaff. He walks through the part of the story most people skipped: the freshman year that humbled him, the sophomore cross country season where he didn't even make the travel squad, and the junior year where he missed the outdoor 1500 final and coach Mike Smith floated calling the season early. Colin said no, asked to run the 800 instead, and ran 1:44 for the first time.What changed his senior year wasn't the training getting harder—it got easier. He slowed his threshold work by roughly ten seconds a mile, stopped burning himself out, and went to every line believing he'd win. That belief carried him to 16th at NCAA cross country, a Millrose 800 win over a world-class field, the indoor 3000 and DMR titles at nationals, and the outdoor 800 crown in his final collegiate race.He calls it delusional confidence, and it's the spine of the whole conversation.They also get into why the NCAA humbles almost everyone and why your timeline isn't anyone else's; the Mike Smith phone call that could have gone very differently; what it means to reunite with Smith alongside Nico Young, Ethan Strand, Parker Wolfe and Drew Bosley; and why the 800 or 1500 question is still wide open heading into an Olympic year.Tap into the Colin Sahlman Special. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.S H O W N O T E S -The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffzBehind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZLuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20Personal Instagram: @colinsahlman Photography Instagram: @colins_cam

Jess McClain almost skipped her first Foot Locker Nationals for a high school dance.

Her coach talked her out of it, and she went on to become one of only 27 girls in the meet's history to make all four national finals—2006 through 2009, alongside classmate Emily Sisson.

Sixteen years later, she's the fastest American woman ever to run Boston.

Jess kicks off the Call Room: Golden Ticket Edition, presented by Fleet Feet, leading into the Brooks Cross Country National Championships. She and Dominic start with the heat, since she grew up in Phoenix waking at 4:15 a.m. five days a week and still trains there today. Her answer is effort-based work and a lot of grace, and it's the same approach she used at fifteen.

From there they walk Balboa Park year by year: 24th as a wide-eyed freshman; then 20th; then 10th; then 13th as a senior ranked fourth in the country. Jess fondly recalls the free backpack, the West Region blue, the hill everyone underestimates, and the friendships still going. She talks about Coach Messer's precision and Coach Van Sickle's fun, three state team titles at Xavier, and why the team races mattered more than the individual ones.

Then the meet's near-death last year, why she immediately thought Brooks should save it, and what the golden ticket system means for kids whose schedules don't line up.

Her advice for anyone chasing a spot this fall: be in the mile you're in, and make the process worth the goal.

Tap into the Jess McClain Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Fleet Feet x Brooks XC Championships

FleetFeet.com

Instagram: @jesstonn

You can't out-tough sleep.

That's Todd Anderson's whole argument, and he makes it as a guy who tried. A walk-on fullback at Michigan State who signed with the Rams of the NFL in 2012, Todd spent a decade in strength and conditioning before deciding the highest-leverage hour of an athlete's day is the one they spend unconsciously. 

He's now co-founder and CEO of Dream Performance & Recovery and is working toward a PhD in sleep psychology.

Dominic caught him marathon mid-buildup—Todd's training for Chicago, Dominic for Columbus—and the conversation goes deep on why runners are the worst offenders. Perceived exertion and pain tolerance are among the first things to degrade when you're underslept, so chronic short sleep doesn't just cap your ceiling, it makes every mile hurt more. Todd's comparison: it's like training every day in 100-degree heat.

They get into the seven-hour floor and where that number actually comes from, the 2024 lab studies where unrestricted sleepers settled at eight and a half hours, and how to tell whether you're carrying sleep debt. Todd breaks down the mechanics of nasal breathing—nitric oxide, CO2 tolerance, and why the strips may do more for you asleep than on the run—plus why 80% of people have a deviated septum and don't know it.

Also, why screen damage is dose-dependent; what you watch matters as much as the light; Todd's hypothesis that marathon records would fall faster in the afternoon; and how long he thinks Dominic would survive in a 230-degree sauna.

Tap into the Todd Anderson Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Personal & Coaching Site: ToddAnderson42.com 

Company Store: DreamRecovery.io 

Instagram: @toddanderson42

Riley Witt says a hot bath beats a microdose of EPO.

That's where this one opens, and it doesn't slow down. Riley walks through passive heat training—45 minutes at 104 degrees, four or five times a week, and the plasma volume adaptations that come with zero skeletal strain. He explains why water cooks you faster than a sauna, why going straight from a run into the heat multiplies the effect, and why a hot bath before bed will wreck your sleep instead of helping it.

From there: electrolytes as the most overhyped supplement on the market, why a real sports drink needs sugar, and the carbohydrate timing window that can leave you hypoglycemic on the start line.

Then the doping conversation. Riley talks about how WADA actually decides what gets banned, why most NCAA testing is looking for recreational drugs, and what a caffeine limit is really protecting you from. Dominic brings the Shelby Houlihan case and a stat on tainted supplements that Riley refuses to accept, which turns into the most detailed account you'll hear of what certification actually costs—the audit, the quarantine room, the batch testing.

And the one everyone will argue about: how a guy with a 3:59 mile runs threshold at 4:00 pace. Riley explains his actual lactate numbers, why 200s at 32 seconds still count, and the theory he's building with Dr. Bill Evans around assisted running and running economy.

Plus steeplechase heat, the Odyssey soundtrack, and why Riley would pay a million dollars for six seconds.

Tap into the Riley Witt Special. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider following us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and giving us a five-star review! I would also appreciate it if you share it with your friend who you think will benefit from it.

S H O W  N O T E S   

-The Run Down By The Running Effect (our new newsletter!): https://tinyurl.com/mr36s9rs

-Our Website: https://therunningeffect.run

-THE PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcLIDAqmJBTHeyWJx_wFQ

-My Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/therunningeffect/?hl=en⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

-Take our podcast survey: https://tinyurl.com/3ua62ffz

Behind the scenes of The Running Effect: https://youtube.com/@dominicschlueter?si=PM9FjPc92eFUFEZ

LuminaryThreads: luminarythreads.shop

$20 off your next Attuned scan: https://attuned.health/discount/TRE20?ref=TRE20

Bicarb.shop – Official online store

Instagram: @riwitt03; @iamrileywitt; @bicarb.shop