ThinkEnergy

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #38:

Waterpower is Canada’s most abundant source of clean and renewable electricity. In fact, because of this, Canada is the second largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world. So, what’s next for Canada’s waterpower industry? Is there untapped potential? What are the plans for growth nationally and what influence does it have on the world stage? Our special guest, Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin, President and CEO of WaterPower Canada, helps us demystify the water industry.

Related Content & Links:

• https://hydroottawa.com/
• Websites:
  • waterpowercanada.ca
  • Twitter: @WaterPowerCA
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/canadian-hydropower-association/

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast, one of Canada's oldest hydroelectric generating station was commissioned right here in the nation's capital in 1891. Located in the heart of downtown Ottawa, is a stone throws away from the parliament building. Chaudière Falls is still providing clean and renewable electricity today, nearly 130 years after it went into service. While hydroelectricity first powered our great country, it was fossil fuel that became the dominant energy source of the 20th century. But it seems that what was old is new again. And cleaner electricity is making a comeback in a big way. I'm convinced it will be the energy source that powers the 21st century. Because Canada is a water rich country, it's not surprising that water power is Canada's most abundant source of clean, and renewable electricity. It provides more than 60% of our country's total electricity, with an installed capacity soon exceeding 85,000 megawatts. As such, Canada is the second largest generator of hydroelectricity in the world after China. To reduce Canada's emissions of greenhouse gases that cause climate change, we must strategically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and increase the amount of electricity we produce from non-emitting and renewable energy resources. Hydroelectricity produces no air pollution, and has ultra-low greenhouse gas emissions, especially for those stations that are run of the river. From a full lifecycle assessment basis, Canada's hydro power is amongst the lowest emitting resources available and like Chaudière falls proves hydro power assets can last well over 100 years if properly maintained, making them very cost effective long term investments. Canada is already a leader in hydro power generation, but it has a potential to more than double its current capacity, thanks to its abundant, untapped water power resource. Contrary to popular opinion, Canadian hydro power is cost competitive, which helps keep rates low for customers. In fact, provinces with the highest hydro power installed capacity tend to have the lowest electricity costs. So here's today's big question: What's next for Canada's water power industry? What are the plans for growth nationally? And what influence does it have on the world stage? Our special guest today will help demystify the water industry: Waterpower Canada's president and CEO, Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, what drew you to your current role, and how you became an advocate for renewable energy, particularly waterpower.

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  04:04

I think what really brought me to waterpower is a mixed bag of training and experiences. I specialized in environmental law at school. So my passion has always been sustainability and environmental protection. And after graduating, I had the opportunity to work for justice for a bit mostly focusing on mining projects. But that kind of took me to the next you know, job which was to work for Hatch, an international engineering firm, where I worked on international project projects across the world as an environmental and social impact management specialist. So that's where I got my hands dirty in terms of really seeing how projects are done from start to finish the whole pre-feasibility to commissioning. So that was very, very good, a great experience over about four years. And then I kind of switched a little bit - wanting to have a broader approach to sustainability. So not just look at projects, but also look at corporate sustainability. How do you integrate that thinking into your processes, the way you work with your employees? And also how do you continue to obviously implement the best procedures on projects. And so I looked at other opportunities. And I was then hired by what was then called the Canadian Hydropower Association, which we rebranded about two years ago as Waterpower Canada. So that was my first real exposure to the water power industry. Now, about seven years ago, I'd say, which, you know, time flies, as they say, but it's been a great experience, because it really allowed me to bring my legal experience and my passion for sustainability in my role as an advocate for renewable energy.

Dan Seguin  06:01

What is the mission of Waterpower Canada? And what kind of initiatives is it pursuing to advance and support hydro power, nationally, and even internationally,

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  06:13

So we are a national trade association. So our mission as an organization is really to promote and actively advocate for hydropower. That means, you know, promoting the existing assets, the existing fleet, promoting the attributes, what it does for Canadians what it does for the country in general, and also promoting future developments, be it sometimes reinvestment in the fleet through refurbishment redevelopments, or, of course, as well, Greenfield, Greenfield projects. So nationally that's really our focus is to bring awareness, I always say my job is 50%, government relations, 50% communications, and they tend to marry in the sense that you're always communicating in this field, right, you're always trying to bring more knowledge and more awareness about your sector, no matter who you're talking to. But you aim it a different way, depending on kind of where you focus, what you focus on. And then internationally, we definitely focus more and more on, on working with the US in terms of leveraging the clean exports of hydro power to the US. It's not a new thing. You know, it's been ongoing for decades. And it's been a huge source of wealth for Canada and for certain provinces in particular. But it is something that we see as an opportunity in the future because the US has a pretty emission intensive electricity sector. And they're looking at decarbonizing similar to us, right, but they don't have necessarily all the attributes ready to go that that we can offer in Canada, and we are very connected north-south. So it is it is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in the sense of being able to send us clean electrons across the border, without too many too many hurdles. So we were also kind of deploying that kind of efforts internationally.

Dan Seguin  08:15

In Canada, we know about the environmental benefits of hydro power, in terms of renewable energy, cleaner air, and less pollution, overall, perhaps less known lies under the surface, and the impact of these facilities, particularly turbines can have on fish and other water species. Can you talk a bit about what the industry is doing to contribute to the recovery of endangered, threatened and other species at risk?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  08:47

The first thing I'll say is that our sector has been around for more than a century. So any impact that we have is very well understood, and has been very well studied. And there's been a lot of research going into avoidance or when you cannot avoid an impact, mitigation, right, which is the rule for sure. So in terms of fish habitats, in particular, I'll give you an example which is something I've learned through my career working within the water power sector. And it's quite interesting and it happens across the nation right from coast to coast to coast, but you have requirements that are set by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and also of course, by your local regulating bodies, that you know, operate at different levels. And those you know, dictate kind of the measures that you have to put in place and in many cases when you have a hydro site, runoff river or reservoir, you tend to have offsets and you know protocols or fish habitat banking is what we call and without getting into the you know the terminology of you know, that we use with an industry, but through those techniques, you actually have a great opportunity to operate a site that now has a greater fish population that what you found when you actually started with your Greenfield project, and that has been seen and studied. And there's been a lot of, you know, case studies presented on this, where, you know, different fish species actually respond very well to habitat banking. And, they're thriving, more than, you know, maybe the conditions that they were having before the hydro site was developed. So it's that that's just an example. And of course, it's a great success story, but it's not to overshadow the fact that, yes, we operate in water, we do have impacts, and there's always, and they will always be room for improvements. And so a lot of research above and beyond this protocols and, and systems that we implement. A lot of research is actually invested in making sure that the first rule is to avoid impacts, and you don't turn to mitigation right away.

Dan Seguin  11:10

When you envision the future of hydro power, what do you see? And what are some of the most exciting things that the industry is doing? Or that Waterpower Canada is spearheading?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  11:23

So, you know, with COVID-19, of course, the landscape is different now. But I'm going to put that aside, and for the only reason that we don't know what's going to happen, right, we don't know what's going to happen post COVID the ramifications how long it's going to last. So kind of crystal balling the future on this is a bit of a risky exercise. But if I if I said that crisis aside, what was really exciting, just you know, over the past few years, and what we were lining up and gearing up to, to work on was the huge wave of refurbishment and redevelopment. The average age of a hydropower facility in Canada is 50 years. And that's about the same in the US, right? Our assets are what we call generational assets. Which is great, because you can refurbish them, you know, throughout generations, and it's yours to keep for decades and decades and decades. But what it also means is that every once in a while you have to invest, and inject those capital reinvestments so that you can continue to operate your fleet. And also, you know, modernize the fleet. So that's very exciting. Because no matter what happens with the global pandemic situation,  this is going to happen, I don't know if it's going to happen within the next year, or now within the next five years. But what it means is that it's going to inject billions in the Canadian economy, it's going to sustain a lot of jobs. And it's going to help us decarbonize, you know, further, we already have about an 80%, non-emitting electricity grid, thanks to Hydro and other renewables, and thanks to nuclear, but of course, there's more room for improvement. And so anything you can do to leverage your existing fleet and just pull out those clean electrons  is good news in a very exciting.

Dan Seguin  13:15

What do you think is the biggest myth or misunderstanding about water power?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  13:20

You know, I, there are quite a few. So but it raises my blood pressure when I think about all of them, so I'll just focus on one. But what I what I hear often and above and beyond the lack of knowledge, generally speaking, I think it's always mind boggling to hear that people don't necessarily know or understand the role that waterpark plays in our in our generation mix. But above and beyond that, I think that the biggest misunderstanding is the fact that people really assume that hydro is an old, dusty, non-innovative technology, because we've been around for so long. And it is actually really, really incorrect because we've been around for so long because we are extremely innovative because we are extremely fine tuning research. Every corner that we take, right, and if we weren't innovative, and if we weren't investing in digitalization and new systems, we wouldn't have survived. And so I always say that the original clean tech in Canada is water power, and is the most enduring one, which is a pretty impressive fact.

Dan Seguin  14:33

The hydro power sector contributes more than $30 billion to the Canadian economy and supports a labor force 130,000 strong. What kind of growth does waterpower Canada foresee in the future?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  14:47

So just through the refurbishments and redevelopments that was talking about earlier. This is going to trigger a huge growth in the fleet because with no major new and harmful impacts with, you know, a pretty reasonable injection of funds into your fleet, you can actually get a lot more generation out of an existing site. So that's very exciting. And, it's going to trickle down in terms of economic ramifications. But what we will always kind of try and advocate for is to not let go of Greenfield hydro. And, and the exciting thing about hydro is it comes in many shapes and forms. So you don't have to just focus on large hydro reservoir, you also have run of the river of all sizes , by the way, because a lot of people assume that run off river is small hydro, but you can have 1000 megawatt, run of the river facilities, right, which is pretty big. But what's really exciting too, and we hear about more and more these days is pump storage. So we, you know, we didn't focus too much on pump storage, I think as a nation in the past, because we didn't really have to, we had so many easily developable sites run of the river, reservoir and reservoir is embedded storage, right. So it's a  great way to have on demand clean electricity. But now more and more, we're looking at exciting projects that are investing in pumped storage, and  its across Canada, as well, there's a project in Ontario, another one in Alberta, but pump storage is basically a closed loop hydro system where you have elevation, and you take advantage of that elevation to bring water down, and then back up depending on cost of electricity and low demand. So that you can meet peak load requirements, and also reduce your expenditure by managing that curve, in a very smart way. So it is it is very innovative. It is it is something that again has existed for many, many years. It's nothing new. But we had we haven't really invested a lot in this technology in Canada. So far, it's much more common in the US. But I see this coming more and more top of mind.

Dan Seguin  17:19

Hydro power infrastructure is designed to withstand floods, and often plays an important role in flood mitigation and management. We've learned that in Ottawa the hard way in 2017, and 2019. Has climate resilience and adapting to the impacts of climate change been front of mind, for Canada's electricity producers? Where do you see making the biggest impacts?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  17:46

So yeah, we are investing a lot in climate change research. And I'd say it should be a priority for any sector, probably in the world. So there's a lot of research going on, we are partnering with modeling agencies, like , who helped us, you know, understand, not just the impacts on the hydropower fleet, but kind of bring in external factors as well that are going to affect climate change. The difficulty and the challenge in the country that's as big as Canada is the fact that your impacts are not going to be one general, one size fits all for the sector. So you won't be able to use general categorization for your industry, you're going to have to get regions, of course. And I remember actually a few years ago, during the floods that were happening in Ontario and Quebec, my members in BC, were saying that they were actually observing low levels in their reservoirs. And so that just speaks to the fact that it's not just a small difference, you have an extreme event happening in one side of the country, and another extreme event as a drought on the other side of the country. So what that means is you have to be extremely flexible. And people have to design especially when they refurbish and when they build new sites with climate change in mind every step of the way.

Dan Seguin  19:08

You've touched on this earlier Anne-Raphaëlle, hydro power has been around for more than 100 years. What does the untapped potential in Canada look like? And what are some of the innovations within the sector that makes it even more attractive?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  19:27

Yeah. So that's one of the other misconceptions that I was alluding to earlier on a previous question. When that when I talk to Canadians and also to policymakers, sometimes they tell me Well, you know, yes, we've got a lot of hydro power in Canada, it's more than 60% of our generation. But surely, because it's so big, we must be tapped out. There must not be any more hydro to develop. And it couldn't be further from the truth. We actually have a lot of water In Canada, we've got good innovation, great sights still to develop. So our untapped potential is actually more than double our existing installed capacity. So we've got about 85,000 megawatts of current installed capacity. So you can, you can only imagine what we could do if we were to just develop a portion of the untapped technical potential. And, and the great news about that now, I always emphasize that when I when I speak at conferences, or  when I have discussions with government, and stakeholders in general is to say that, that potential is not just a reality in in one province, it's a reality across the country. So when we look at decarbonizing, electrifying, all of those great things that you know are happening are going to happen, you know, over the next few years, it's just a must to look at what you could do with your hydro resources in your province or in your territory, because it's there, it exists.

Dan Seguin  21:01

Technology is enhancing digitization, and automation of hydro power plants to realize their full potential. What are some of the digital solutions around monitoring, maintenance, and service that you see the industry benefiting from either now or the near future?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  21:22

So  I hear a lot about virtual reality, and also artificial intelligence in my sector. And of course, they're two different things, but they tap into that new world of technologies that can help you operate your site in a different way. I think anything that's going to allow us to have remote access to our sites, and that means from a controlling operation. Also, from a supply chain perspective - actually COVID-19 brought one positive from my perspective, which is the fact that we're leveraging tools, more and more that allow us to do remote inspection, for example, because of course, during the pandemic, we couldn't actually go to two warehouses and inspect equipment as it was coming in from China, wherever across the world, right? You had to just wait until it arrived on site. And sometimes we're talking big pieces of furniture, now just a screw and a hammer. So just having tools that really allow you to get in and take a full scope, engineering, look at your equipment, as it comes in before it is delivered is a huge progress, and those tools exists. And that was a huge discovery, I think for me, because I wasn't aware that technology was that far ahead, already ready to respond. Another example, which is always interesting, because I've toured quite a few hydro sites. And I remember at one of the oldest sites in Canada, you know, we were looking at the control room: tons of switches, you know, probably a room that could probably accommodate eight to 10 people at one time. And, and the operator was saying, well, we refurbished and now the person can actually control everything from his living room at home, and is that his laptop, because it's all integrated, and the system is talking to that control room here on site. And that's all it takes. So automation is definitely going to be needed in the future. But it doesn't mean that we won't need, you know, physical, you know, staff and people to manage, because, of course, it's still going to be a huge requirement, but it is more efficient. And that is every day that that kind of innovation happens.

Dan Seguin  23:44

You indicated earlier that waterpower in Canada provides more than 90% of our renewable power and 60% of our overall electricity supply. Canada is blessed with an abundance of untapped potential, residing both in existing sites and new developments. Any thoughts on the pros and cons of refurbishment and redevelopment opportunities versus the development of new projects?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  24:15

Yes. So I mean, it's all case specific: that's the obvious answer. And so what makes sense for a site may not make sense for another one, meaning that, you know, we've got a lot of members that are actually assessing a specific site and considering everything like from decommissioning, which is, you know, turning off the lights basically and saying, Okay, this asset has played its role and that we're going to return the site back to nature. When the economy, you know, just circumstances or environmental or just the general circumstances surrounding a specific site dictate certain decisions. So I think it's not very common that, you know, people would decide to decommission a hydro site because most of the time, even if it's just a little bit of generation, when you've had a site for 80-90 years, and you've refurbished it and maintained it over the years, it's still it's still a great provider of clean electricity. It's still a money-maker for the utility or for the independent power producer. So it's still definitely a great benefit to have within your fleet. But so I don't see any downside to refurbishment, or redevelopment. I think it's a low hanging fruit for electrification, it's something that's going to happen. It's just a question of when, and Greenfield hydro is not going anywhere. I think it's just, let's focus on what we can do first, which is refurbishment. It's the obvious thing to do and it's needed. And in a decade or two, we'll probably see another wave of investment in Greenfield hydro.

Dan Seguin  25:55

Before I forget, are you able to demystify for our listeners what Greenfield hydro is?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  26:03

Greenfield hydro means you take a site that is completely natural. So an untouched site, and you develop a hydro site. And it's a terminology that can be used for any industry, not just hydro. So you can say Greenfield mining Greenfield wind, it just means that you start with a site that hasn't been touched.

Dan Seguin  26:24

Hydro power can provide abundant low carbon energy, with its storage from reservoir and pump storage. As the only renewable form of baseload electricity, how essential is hydro power to leading Canada's transition away from fossil fuels, while maximizing environmental benefits.

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  26:46

It's not only essential, it's critical. We always say that if we didn't have what a power within our generation mix, we would be in in a terrible situation as a country, because again, 60% of our overall electricity generation is coming from that big renewable giant, which is water power. So you know, if we take a step back and consider for one second the world we live in, in Canada, without water power, it would be quite different, and it would probably be much dirtier in terms of emissions. So we start with a huge asset, and a huge advantage compared to some countries and you know, people from across the world come to Canada to actually learn about our mostly non-emitting electricity grid. How did you do it? What are the systems you put in place? What is your regulatory environment? How did you get to where you are now? But of course, it's not to say that we are perfect because we're not we've got high emission, or emission intensive sectors. Some provinces are doing better than others for historical reasons, you know, different decisions. And I think we've been blessed with an abundance of natural resources across the nation. And so we shouldn't point fingers. It's really not about that. It's just about Okay, how do we get better? How do we clean up our system? So that we move away from, you know, negative emissions and move toward electrification, which is the priority? Right, the easiest thing to do is to turn to electrifying our transportation, of course, and then buildings, and hydropower is there, you know, we just need the right, you know, economic environment, the right signals from governments, in terms of regulatory streamlining, for example, in terms of regulations that incentivize investment in hydro, and the sector will respond because we've got the resources to develop and do more to decarbonize Canada.

Dan Seguin  28:46

You've touched on this earlier, but wondering if we can explore further. Both Canada and the United States are looking for ways to reduce carbon emissions to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets. With 60% of US electricity still being generated from coal and gas powered thermal plants, is Canada's clean, renewable hydro power becoming an attractive option for Border States? How are those partnerships negotiated? Has it been an easy sell? Are those states coming to you?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  29:22

So it's as we discussed, yes, it's been something that has been done for years. So it's nothing new under the sun. But I think it's becoming more top of mind because big players like the mayor of New York, you know, for the past year has been saying, you know, we want to import a lot of clean and renewable hydro from Quebec. And he's right you know, it's a few hours north of his of his state. It's available there. There are big surpluses in Quebec it's the cheapest electricity you can buy not just in Canada - in North America. And it's a source of wealth for this province. And it's the same story in Manitoba. You know, who sends electricity to Minnesota and other states and neighboring that border on that side of the country, with new transmission lines going through the approval process in each of those jurisdictions. So I think this is definitely going to be more talked about in the future. I think it's probably rising to news headlines more and more because of politics. And depending on the political environment on either side of the border, it can be framed as a positive story, or it can be framed as a negative story, but for all intents and purposes for Canadians and for Americans, it is a great, great thing to do, because you decarbonize the system, you have a low electricity cost, and on top of everything, it's clean and renewable, so why wouldn't you do it?

Dan Seguin  30:51

How about we close off with rapid fire questions? Are you ready?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  30:55

Okay.

Dan Seguin  30:57

What is your favorite word?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  31:01

Um,you know, I'm a Francophone. But there's a word that I really like in English, not necessarily for its meaning, but for the sound it has on the tongue. It's serendipity. I just find it funny. It rolls well.

Dan Seguin  31:14

What is the one thing you can't live without?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  31:17

Probably in equal measures: my family and coffee. Is that an acceptable answer?

Dan Seguin  31:24

What is something that challenges you?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  31:29

As a mom, with a young family, I'm not a big fan of the terminology, you know, work life balance, but just trying to set some time for what's important, and not being consumed by work or other things. So just knowing your limits, I think is going to be a lifelong exercise for me.

Dan Seguin  31:51

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  31:55

Oh, that's a good one. Probably traveling through time.

Dan Seguin  32:00

Okay. If you could turn back time, and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell her?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  32:08

That you're on the right path, you know, continue to travel as much as you can. And, and learn from people who want to mentor you, you know, on your path  to whatever you want to achieve. Because you know, people want to help each other. That's what I've learned. They're always happy to share insights. And most the time you just have  to ask and people will be there to help you.

Dan Seguin  32:33

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  32:40

I think all the excitement around the electrification, the fact that we know this is probably the next Industrial Revolution. It's hard to really tangibly feel what this is going to look like. But it's going to affect everybody in a good way. And there's not going to be one sector that's going to be left to the side because we're all going to need to collaborate. And so just that aspect of working together and being able to find new ways to revolutionize a system that has been implemented for years and years is very exciting.

Dan Seguin  33:13

Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about your organization? How can they connect?

Anne-Raphaëlle Audouin  33:20

So website is always the first stop: waterpowercanada.ca We're very active on social media too, so they can find us on YouTube. They can find us on Twitter and on LinkedIn. And don't be a stranger because we love hearing from people.

Dan Seguin  33:39

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #37:

Roughly 50 per cent of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions in Canada are from municipalities. This means that cities have the opportunity to make a huge impact when it comes to shifting and improving energy habits. In this episode, Andrea Flowers – the Senior Project Manager for Environmental Programs, Planning, Infrastructure & Economic Development for the City of Ottawa – tells us all about the steps that Ottawa is taking, through an action plan called Energy Evolution, to reduce GHG emissions from the community by 100 per cent by 2050 and from City operations by 100 per cent by 2040.

Related Content & Links:

• Websites:

  • Visit ottawa.ca/climatechange to learn more about what Ottawa is doing to reduce GHG emissions and to build a more resilient city in the face of climate change. 

  • Visit ottawa.ca/energyevolution or the Energy Evolution page on Engage Ottawa to learn more about Energy Evolution. Complete a survey to help Energy Ottawa understand the barriers you face to acting on climate change and subscribe to Engage Ottawa to be notified when new content is added. 

  • https://hydroottawa.com/

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:41

Well, everyone, welcome back. This is another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. In April 2019, the City of Ottawa, the nation's capital, declared a climate emergency. It was this declaration that signaled to the community at large that the municipal government was taking climate action very, very seriously. And that is why ramping up with its climate change master plan, its climate resiliency strategy, and a special project called Energy Evolution. It's clear the city recognize that municipalities can influence significant change over their own emissions. In fact, roughly 50% of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are from municipalities. That means every town and every city in Canada can make a huge impact. By tackling climate change at the municipal level, on the ground sort of speak, municipalities can not only improve the quality of life for their residents, but also reduce greenhouse gas emissions and save money in operations and energy costs. Today, we're going to focus on Energy Evolution. This is the action plan for how the City of Ottawa will meet 100% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from its operations of the municipal government by 2040, and from the community, the entire city by 2015. In short, its vision is clear to transform Ottawa into a thriving city of the future powered by clean, renewable energy. Realizing Energy Evolution's vision will require concerted efforts and collaboration across all sectors of the community like never before. The strategy is guided by three components: reduce energy use through conservation and efficiency, increase the supply renewable energy through local and regional production, and prioritize the procurement of clean and renewable energy. Here is today's big question. How will Ottawa the nation's Capital go about to set its emission reduction targets. And what was the process to creating a climate action plan? Joining me today is a very special guest, Andrea Flowers, who is leading the development of the city of Ottawa's renewable energy strategy. Andrea, can you tell us a bit about you, the work that you do, and why global warming, climate change and clean energy means so much to you?

Andrea Flowers  03:37

Well, I have more than 15 years strategic climate change planning, policy development, project management, stakeholder engagement and public education. I've worked in the nonprofit private and public sector at the municipal, provincial and federal level. And over the last year and a half or so I've had the privilege of leading the City of Ottawa's as climate change and resiliency team. I think that climate change is the political and moral challenge of our time, and I think we all have a responsibility to learn about it and take action on it.

Dan Seguin  04:07

Can you tell us a bit about why Ottawa declared a climate emergency in 2019 and why the city needs a community energy transition strategy, like energy evolution?

Andrea Flowers  04:20

Ottawa declared a climate emergency to name, frame and deepen our commitment to protecting the economy or ecosystem in our community from climate change. Worldwide, climate scientists agree that fast rising global temperatures have created a climate emergency, and that we need to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius in order to avoid catastrophic climate change. At this point, there's hardly a week that goes by without hearing about climate change in the news. And so, cities across the country and around the world have declared climate change in order to take action on this issue and raise the profile of it. Since cities have an influence over about half the emissions in Canada, I think Ottawa like all other cities needs a strategy like energy evolution to respond to climate change. I also think that cities like all other levels of government have a responsibility to play in the leadership role of catalyzing the broader community, and helping us all collectively rise to the challenge. In Ottawa Energy Evolution is our strategy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the community 100% by 2050. In line with that global science and energy evolution hopes to transform Ottawa into a thriving city powered by clean renewable energy. But realizing Energy Evolution's vision will require concerted efforts and collaboration across all sectors of the community.

Dan Seguin  05:48

Andrea, wondering if you can expand on the scope and scale of changes required for Ottawa to reduce GHG emissions below the 2020 levels by 2050. And what are the short, mid and long term targets?

Andrea Flowers  06:07

I'll start with the second part of the question for context. So as part of Council's approval of the new climate change master plan in Ottawa, short, mid and long term targets for greenhouse gas emissions were set, and they align with those inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change targets. So the IPCC targets to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius. So community wide, the short term target is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 43% by 2025 and 68% by 2040 and 100% by 2050. And then the scope scale and the short timelines associated with those are really difficult to meet. I would say that meeting those targets will require both unprecedented action and Investment across the community and around the world. So to give you a sense of what that scope and scale means, we're going to have to phase out almost all fossil fuels. That means gas, natural gas and diesel, we're going to nearly fully electrify our heating and cooling systems are going to have to nearly fully electrify or go to zero emission transportation systems. For our personal vehicles or commercial fleets and our transit systems, we're going to have to start using more waste heat and renewable natural gas to meet our heating demands. And we're going to have to generate and store enough renewable energy, particularly electricity mostly from wind and solar to meet the demand and offset emissions that we currently have from Ontario's provincial grid.

Dan Seguin  07:51

based on your analysis, what are the biggest contributors to Ottawa's greenhouse gas emissions and how challenging will it be to shift away from those,

Andrea Flowers  08:03

let me be a bit of background. So Ottawa undertakes greenhouse gas emissions inventories every year so that we know where our emissions come from. And in 2018, the most recent year that we have right now, roughly 90% of the emissions in Ottawa came from the building and transportation sectors, basically how we heat and cool our homes and how we get around the city. And if we look at those emissions, and the contributing sources of emissions, then natural gas is by far the largest contributor in the community, followed by gasoline and diesel. Of course, given the scope and scale of the transportation system in our building sector, it's going to be really difficult to shift away from these emission sources. governments don't have control direct control over emissions, although of course they can influence them between policy and regulation or incentives and disincentives, but success is going to depend to a large extent on private action. It's going to take billions of dollars of public and private capital to make community wide investments over the next 30 years. And to meet those targets that we set, the upfront investments over the next 10 years will be the highest. But the good news is that our financial analysis shows there'll be a net financial benefit to society at large starting in early 2030, probably around 2032 when the net annual savings start to outpace the revenues generated and the savings generated compared to the annual investments required. And beyond the financial challenges. There's lots of federal and provincial governmental, regulatory barriers that prevent us from doing some of the actions required in the model. And then even beyond this, of course, there's risk that the public won't make or accept the types of changes required. And I'm cognizant of the fact that there's a huge Equity and Inclusion risk for this transition. We need to find ways that everybody can participate in climate solutions, and not just the people who can afford it.

Dan Seguin  10:14

In your view, do you feel that public acceptance is a challenge? Can anyone participate in climate solutions? Are there any barriers?

Andrea Flowers  10:23

I'm a champion in this sector. I also own an EV. And I cycle almost everywhere. I've done deep retrofits on my home, and they're all really challenging choices to make for all kinds of reasons: where to start, how to prioritize how to actually do it. You're highlighting some of the other challenges in public acceptance and just our ability to make these changes.

Dan Seguin  10:50

The intergovernmental panel on climate change has said that limiting global warming to 1.5 Celsius is possible. But will require far reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects of society. In order to achieve this at the local level, what type of changes can we expect from the city and even from ourselves

Andrea Flowers  11:14

Well, when we look at Energy Evolution, we've broken it down in a total of five sectors on to figure out how we can achieve a 100% reduction by 2050. The five sectors are land use buildings, transportation, waste, and renewable natural gas and electricity. And four out of the five sectors really rely on land use as sort of a base element to the whole model. If we look at the model itself, the building and transportation sectors account for roughly 75% of all the cumulative emission reductions from now until 2050. And the remaining 25% will have to come from waste and renewable natural gas and electricity sectors. The model itself then takes those five sectors and it breaks it down into 39 actions. And those 39 actions tell us sort of the scale of change required in each of the actions. If we think about what the top five emissions are, I said 75% of the reductions will come from the buildings and transportation sector. So it's no surprise that four of these five come from those areas includes by far the largest action, which is to electrify personal electric vehicles. So about 20% of the 100% of emissions that we need to achieve will come from the electrification of personal vehicles. The second most important action is to divert organics and create renewable natural gas so we need to divert our our kitchen waste our yard and leaf waste away from landfills where we create very a powerful GHG emission called methane. And we need to divert both methane that's produced out landfills and methane, which we could capture through anaerobic digesters and create renewable natural gas. So luckily the city is right now doing a new solid waste master plan. And there they are seeking input on what to do with our organics. The third most important action is to retrofit existing residential buildings and the fourth is to retrofit existing commercial buildings. Now, we're not talking about just air sealing and new windows or insulation in the attic. We're talking about deep retrofits, we're talking about retrofits which will reduce natural gas consumption by about 60%, or at least our thermal or heating demand by about 60%. And we're talking about reducing our electrical demand by about 50%. So deep deep retrofits throughout the residential and commercial and institutional sectors, and then the fifth, like the top five action is to transition to zero emission commercial fleets. And, again, this will likely be electrification of commercial fleets. But we haven't ruled out fuel cells either.

Dan Seguin  14:23

Ottawa has defined its greenhouse gas emission targets and states that one of the ways it will meet them is by increasing the supply of renewable energy through local and regional production and prioritizing the procurement of clean renewable energy. Can you walk us through the targets and how the city will increase the supply of renewable energy?

Andrea Flowers  14:48

Well, achieving the 100% scenario will definitely put an increasing demand on electricity production and the delivery of electricity. So right now renewable energy projects are required to contribute about 8.5% towards the 100% scenario by 2050. Now, the targets are aggressive. So to meet our 2030 targets under the 100% scenario, collectively, we'll have to install a significant amount of clean, renewable energy. We're talking 631 megawatts of solar in the residential, commercial and utility sectors, but 100 megawatts in wind, 18 megawatts in hydro power, and three megawatts in biogas. And by 2030, we would also have to increase our storage to about 73 megawatts to reduce curtailment of renewable generation from 90% to 85%. And those, those are all our 2030 targets, they become even more aggressive in 2050. So how are we going to do it? What kind of things are we thinking about? Well, sort of more broadly in the community. We love to ramp up solar generation at a faster pace for at least the next five years, initially through a rooftop strategy, because on site net metering is the only available opportunity to connect with renewable energy generation to the grid. And then also because of the relative scarcity of renewable fuels, fuel based cogeneration can't be installed unless there is a rationale for doing so, to reduce the redundancy requirement or to support specific electricity system requirements. Existing co-gen plants that don't meet these criteria should retire as opportunities arise. And we'll be looking for a sizable amount of battery or other powered storage capacity to ensure that variable renewable generation can be shifted as we as periods of surplus, you know, vary between high demand and the relative curl curtailment of renewable generation.

Dan Seguin  16:59

What are some of the best benefits that your project Energy Evolution will bring to the city and its residents. Does it include economic development and maybe...what else?

Andrea Flowers  17:10

There's lots of benefits associated with Energy Evolution beyond the obvious reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. Certainly economic development is a key one. From that perspective, supporting Ottawa's local businesses in the transition towards a low carbon economy will help companies reduce their operating costs. And it represents an opportunity to create good quality local jobs and attract investment. Right now. ottawans spend about $3 billion a year on energy costs and most of that leaves the city so if we can generate more energy locally, we can keep a greater share of the energy dollars within our local economy. Canada's clean energy sector is growing faster than almost any other sector and it's attracting 10s of billions of dollars in investment every year. Already are clean energy sector accounts for about 300,000 jobs in Canada. And as part of the financial analysis, and part of the energy and emissions modeling we did for energy pollution. We looked at job creation and we predict for for building retrofits alone, we could generate as many as 38,000 jobs here in Ottawa. And then to your other part of your question beyond economic development, there's there's also other benefits. From a public health perspective, we expect that air quality could improve as we move away from fossil fuels causing a reduction in health related effects like heart disease and breathing problems. We hope that physical and mental health would improve as we get out and cycle and walk more instead of using personal vehicles. We may see an improvement in sleep patterns as the reduced noise levels from vehicles as we transition from fuels to electric vehicles which are much quieter. And as we insulate buildings to improve our heating. And then finally, there's also benefits associated with energy security and resiliency. With an increasing number of extreme events like ice storms and tornadoes. increasing our local renewable generation and supply provides affordable energy to residents and businesses and could help  with uninterrupted levels of service during those extreme weather events.

Dan Seguin  19:28

Through an energy lens, what role will conservation and efficiency play in lowering greenhouse gas emissions for Ottawa? Where is that low hanging fruit?

Andrea Flowers  19:42

Well, Energy Evolution's model is built on a conservation first scenario. It uses an integrated model approach. So if conservation doesn't happen first, we will effectively just run out of zero emission energy. The model looks at conservation and efficiencies across all sectors including Buildings transportation, electricity and natural gas. And really the low hanging fruit in that list is the electrification of private vehicles. So a gas power train has a fuel to wheels efficiency in the 20-30% range, whereas, a battery electric is more like a 90% efficiency range. So in our modeling, there's no other single measure which conserves as much primary energy as the conversion from gas or diesel to electric vehicles.

Dan Seguin  20:30

Not to brag, but Hydro Ottawa has been in the renewable energy business for more than 130 years, and currently has built in clean generation to power a third of the city. Andrea, how important was it to engage with strategic partners like Hydro Ottawa, and Envari energy solutions?

Andrea Flowers  20:52

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. It's, it's amazing that hydro Ottawa and their subsidiaries have become such a leader. In green energy and it is critical for us to work with partners like Hydro Ottawa. Throughout the development of energy evolution, we've worked with more than 200 strategic partners and technical experts and we know that the city alone can't achieve the scale of emission reductions required and that everybody has a role to play. Fortunately, Hydro Ottawa and its subsidiaries and Envari and Portage Power have been there. Since the beginning of the energy evolution process. They've provided input technical expertise, and you've been very generous about creating platforms like this one to amplify the messaging and engage broader audiences. Without Hydro Ottawa, it is highly unlikely that energy evolution could succeed. The 100% GHG reduction scenario foresees electrical demand more than doubling by 2050. So we need to work together to align our planning and forecasting identify opportunities and advocate together for policy changes at the provincial level. It's wonderful that hydro Ottawa has a long history of renewable energy generation and we need to keep expanding it. As I said earlier, local generation is key to meeting our targets since the province doesn't currently have plans to generate electricity with zero emissions grid. And because there's so many opportunities for economic development here locally.

Dan Seguin  22:25

The transport sector accounts for approximately a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions and is one of the major sectors where emissions are still rising. Electrification is widely considered an attractive solution for reducing the dependency and environmental impact of road transportation. Where does the city stand with electrification of fleets like buses, EV charging stations, and maybe ebikes.

Andrea Flowers  22:55

Now well, I'll go back to the beginning of the question for a minute because if transportation sector accounts for a quarter of global emissions. It's actually quite a bit higher in Ottawa. So community wide, by in 2018. Ottawa's transportation sector accounted for about 44% of Ottawa's GHG emissions. And partly that's because we don't have a large industrial base here in Ottawa, whereas globally, that would play a more significant role. But 44% of emissions in Ottawa are coming from the transportation sector. And in order to meet our 100% scenario target, transportation, we'll need to account for about 37% of our GHG reduction targets emissions. And the city's corporate target is to reduce GHG emissions 100% by 2040. And you'll notice that that's about 10 years earlier than the community. So in the model for our city operations, the model calls for fleets including our own transit and municipal fleets like by-law police ambulance calls for our fleet. To be zero emission by 2030. And then our commercial fleets to be up to can take a bit longer up to 2040. But the transition to zero emission must be a steady and incremental progress. You can't hit the target by backloading the model because then the the emissions are compounding. And although we expect that electrification will be key for the electrification of fleets, we haven't totally ruled out fuel cells. We have however, rolled out internal combustion power trains, even if they use a carbon neutral fuel, because they simply aren't as efficient. In terms of where does the city stand with electrification of our fleets and buses. The city has a corporate policy to include EV chargers at all new facilities and we're considering revising the policy to include EV chargers when we do major renovations or retrofits at City facilities. We continue to grow our own Electric fleet just in the last couple of weeks, the City of Ottawa has purchased four new hyundai konas for bylaw services, and there's some great information on  [email protected] about that. And then in terms of public chargers or general stances that we don't want to, we don't want to have any additional barriers to purchasing private electric vehicles. So we want to do what we can to ensure that there is sufficient public charging in municipal facilities and on municipal lands to support that. So the city is installing a new fast charger at Bob McCrory and it'll be a 150 kilowatt fast charger. And then we've partnered with Eydro Ottawa and Envari to install 13 new doubleheader chargers on city right away throughout the city. So those We'll be going in hopefully by the end of 2020. Back to the question around ebikes. We're encouraged by developments in E bikes and E scooters. And they certainly fit broadly under active transportation in the energy evolution strategy. But we haven't yet given them any detailed focus. So there is increasing interest amongst the public and it's a gap that we know we haven't addressed yet.

Dan Seguin  26:28

As an example of conservation efficiency, are you able to talk about the city's LED streetlight conversion project and what the results have been?

Andrea Flowers  26:38

Well, overall, it's been a resounding success. We've already met our energy and maintenance targets. Maintenance savings have given a knock off reduction in GHG emissions from a reduction in the deployment of service vehicles. And I would say, generally, the project seems to have helped with general widespread acceptance of conservation. And that helps us sell the concept of conservation in other areas across the city and the community as well. By the end of the project, I think that we will have changed more than 58,000 light fixtures to LEDs. And we will have reduced our energy by 60%, reduced GHG emissions by thousand tons per year and our operating costs by close to $5 million. So it's a resounding success. We've also seen co-benefits like reduced light pollution and although I've yet to confirm it with a biologist, I've heard anecdotally that the conversion of LED lights is starting to bring back fireflies into the city because the different color of light makes it easier for the fireflies to communicate amongst themselves. So on my to do list is to confirm that with a biologist but I think it is an interesting little tidbit and I choose to think that it may be true.

Dan Seguin  27:54

Okay, you alluded to this earlier, so wondering if you could expand on what role will energy storage have in lowering the city's carbon future.

Andrea Flowers  28:06

Thermal storage, renewable natural gas and battery storage all have a role to play in meeting Ottawa's GHG reduction targets. Thermal storage will likely be the most important kind of storage both seasonally and on a shorter term basis. So, seasonally or longer term storage will be important for how we operate geothermal systems and shorter term storage will be more buildings specific and could help us shave peak demands. Although we call exclusively for renewable natural gas in the model,  the gas grid will provide less energy than it does today and it will continue to be a large source of storage likely able to meet all demand without any supply for several weeks. And then finally, we need battery storage and the 100% model for electrical grid stability to manage variable generation. battery storage is required to reduce the curtailment renewable generation during periods of low demand, and although it's not modeled, we see the potential for storage to help with the economic competitiveness of electricity. And this ultimately will be important in helping Ottawa achieve our targets.

Dan Seguin  29:15

Okay, Andrea, let's close this off with some rapid fire questions. I hope you're ready.

Andrea Flowers  29:23

Ready

Dan Seguin  29:24

What is your favorite word?

Andrea Flowers  29:27

Zither - such a fun word to say it's a quirky instrument like a harp. You play on your lap and I've had one since a child and it's it's a fun word to say. I played the zither.

Dan Seguin  29:41

What is the one thing you can't live without?

Andrea Flowers  29:44

My man.

Dan Seguin  29:46

What is something that challenges you

Andrea Flowers  29:49

the status quo

Dan Seguin  29:51

If you had one superpower, just one, what would it be?

Andrea Flowers  29:55

Ah the ability to show people the future so that we can really see what the consequences of our actions and our decisions are.

Dan Seguin  30:05

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell her?

Andrea Flowers  30:10

Ah, I would say just follow a path of love. And you will find love in all aspects of your life. Trust that the things that you're interested in, will lead you interesting places and that the path might not always be clear, but there will always be something interesting along the way.

Dan Seguin  30:34

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Andrea Flowers  30:39

The intersection between science and politics. It's complex and interconnected and evolving quickly, so it is ever changing.

Dan Seguin  30:51

Well, Andrea, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you, your organization, how can they connect?

Andrea Flowers  31:05

Well, to be honest, I think that they need to learn less about me and more about the important work that the City is doing and this project in particular Energy Evolution. If you want to learn more about climate change in Ottawa, then you can visit ottawa.ca/climatechange. And there you'll find links to both the mitigation work we do on how to reduce greenhouse gas emissions like Energy Evolution, as well as our adaptation work and how we will build a more resilient future for Ottawa in the face of a changing climate. So, lots of ways and lots of other ways to connect on there, you can go to ottawa.ca/climatechange or ottawa.ca/energyevolution. There you have a chance to sign up for our E newsletter, which focuses on climate change. You can learn more about the projects and how to get involved and You can take a survey on that tells us what kind of barriers you face on implementing climate action.

Dan Seguin  32:09

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast Be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #35:

When we talk about the electrification of transportation, we tend to think about electric vehicles or light rail transit. But there’s another sub-genre of electric transportation that is rapidly growing in popularity: e-bikes. In this episode, Seth Weintraub, an award-winning tech journalist and blogger, helps us tackle some of the myths surrounding e-bikes and helps us understand why they’re becoming one of the greenest transportation options when it comes to urban traffic and environmental impact.

Related Content & Links:

• Websites: https://www.electrek.co
• Linkedin: Seth Weintraub  - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethweintraub/
• Twitter: Seth Weintraub - @llsethj
• Great ebike reviews on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/electrekco 

Transcript

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. When we talk about electrification of transportation, we tend to think about electric vehicles, buses, or light rail transit. But there's another subset of electric trains Transportation that is rapidly growing in popularity. With improvements to battery storage, we may just be entering a new golden age of transportation and mobility, driven by a range of factors from climate change technology, economics, in general consumer preference, the evolution of electric transportation is changing the landscape faster than we've seen in our history. Certainly the awareness of our own responsibility to reduce our own overall impact on the environment is a significant factor. The accounting firm Deloitte says that 300 million electric bikes will be out worldwide by 2023, which is 50% more than today, urban dwellers in particular are seeking convenient, eco healthy and affordable ways to move around congested cities. A criticism has been that e-bikes don't contribute to exercise since the motor does most of the work for you. But a new university of Boulder Colorado study shows that using an electrically powered bicycle on a regular basis can actually provide riders with an effective workout while improving some aspects of cardiovascular health, especially for riders who were previously inactive. The researchers noticed improvement in the rider’s cardiovascular health, including increased aerobic capacity and improved blood sugar control. E-bikes and scooters are affordable now. They are efficient to operate, reduce congestion and ease commute times. They do increase physical activity and simply put - a lot of fun. Yes, e-bikes have a higher emission than a regular bicycle but they far outperform cars, including electric ones, similar to EV's e-bikes can help communities achieve their GHG emission reduction targets. What's interesting is that half of all e-bikes driving trips are shorter than 16 kilometers, with some averaging single trips of just nine kilometers. That's a no brainer distance to cover by e-bikes. Studies show that e-bike owners are replacing 46% of their car commutes, and 30% of their driving errands with a bike rides. Of course, like other electric forms of transportation. This takes support, buy in, and infrastructure investments from municipalities. With supportive cycling infrastructure in place e-bikes have the potential to substitute or completely replace almost all trips taken by a gasoline powered car -which could address congestion and pollution issues and mitigate parking challenges within urban areas, especially for downtown dwellers. So here's today's big question: Are two wheels better than four? In addition to tackling some of the myths surrounding e-bikes are the greenest transportation option when it comes to urban traffic, and environmental impact. Joining me today is a very special guest, Seth Weintraub, an award winning journalist and blogger. In 2003, Seth bought one of Tesla's first model S EVs off the assembly line. This began his love affair with electric vehicles and green energy, which he turned into electrek.co. Seth, I only scratched the surface of your bio in my introduction. Can you tell us a bit more about you, your work, and why electric transportation technology and the environment mean so much to you?

Seth Weintraub  05:14

Alright, so my background is in engineering, I went to school for engineering got my post grad engineering. But I started about 10 years after I began my career in writing about technology. And that started with Apple and started 9to5Mac, about 12 years ago. And then that expanded to Google covering Google and covering, you know, the wider technology range. My interest in clean energy kind of began, when I got a Prius, but really kind of everything came together when I bought my first fully electric car, which was a 2013 Tesla. Model S, you know, I got it at the time, I started reading around about, you know, this product, which I thought was pretty incredible. And nobody was really talking intelligently about it, in my opinion, obviously. So I was like, Hey, I know how to do a blog, I know how to, you know, write about technology. I'm going to start up electrek. So that, you know, I didn't want to just say like, start up another 9to5 Tesla kind of site. I wanted to kind of hit the wider spectrum. At the time, I was super interested in solar, we were putting solar on your house, so we get the full, you know, the driving and electric car powered by the sun. At the time, Tesla wasn't a solar provider, they had Solar City which is, you know, kind of a preferred vendor at the time because you own both companies. But eventually they Tesla integrated Solar City into the company. And there are a lot of other solar platforms out there. So it's just a super interesting thing. And it's kind of scary if we don't kind of figure out the  getting fossil fuels out of our energy matrix. And so it's not just solar and electric cars, we like to talk about electric bikes in a big way. We talked about boats and trains, and you know, every other form of transportation and energy usage. And super interesting because it's changing so much right now. It's such a big part of, you know, the transformation that's going on around the globe. And obviously, it's super important.

Dan Seguin  07:42

Now, I'd like to talk about electric bikes, which are gaining in popularity across the world. I'd be interested to hear about the technology behind e-bikes and break down any myth or misunderstanding about what they are and what they are not.

Seth Weintraub  08:00

That's great - electric bikes, in my opinion are one of the big technology transformations happening right now. So you know as a background love to bikes used to be lead acid batteries and kind of the change in cars from lead acid and nickel cadmium batteries to lithium batteries kind of worked its way down to electric bikes. So, you know, 10 years ago, any electric bike you would find would probably be a lead acid battery so big and heavy and kind of not able to use the full potential of the battery. And that's gone down to these like bricks that are, you know, pretty small and sometimes even fit into the frame of the bike. So, um, but, you know, it just there's so much to talk about electric bikes. You know, they started kind of in earnest about five or six years ago becoming something that you know, everybody can jump on to you know, why are they great? So for me, you know, I, I live in an extremely hilly area, but even if I didn't, the extra speed for me makes my commute more like a car commute. So I can go to my coffee shop or you know to do run my errands on regular roads that cars occupy and I travel around 25 miles per hour. So even on big hills, a car doesn't overtake me very quickly, if at all. So, for me, it's a safety issue like I travel more like a car, cars aren't trying to pass me they're not stressed out. They can't overtake me very quickly. But it also opens up biking to a much broader swath of the population. So you know, if you have a five or 10 mile commute to work on a regular bike, you have to be quite fit and you're probably going to expect to arrive at your destination pretty sweaty in a regular bike. But with a an electric bike, you can kind of control how much assist you have, you know, some electric bikes have throttles and there's a whole litany of, you know, what's legal, where. But a throttle is it almost turns it into like a moped, where you don't even have to pedal if you don't want to. And obviously, the breeze in the air keeps you cool. Like, you know, it's 95 degrees. What is that? Like? 30 something Celsius out today, and everybody's like, I can't believe you're riding your bike. I'm like, when you're going 25 miles per hour, like it's pretty cool. Like there's a lot of wind hitting you and it's, it's really not that bad of a commute. So there are just so many components to it. And you know, I'm probably going off on all different directions, but it just enables a much broader swath of the population can go much further, much faster, much safer.

Dan Seguin  10:57

Okay, Seth, who is the main consumer of e-bikes. Is it the adventurer or the urban city resident looking for a quick commute? Are there different classes of e-bikes and levels of motor systems? Can you maybe help me better understand the categories and the consumers?

Seth Weintraub  11:18

Sure. So there are a lot of different consumers of E bikes. You have younger folks who just want to go really fast. You have older folks who may be their, you know, their legs and hips aren't what they were at one point and the bike makes it easier to go, city people there's, there's people who like high performance. There's the bikes that are pretty much motorcycles with pedals, and they can go 30-40 miles per hour. So I don't want to there's not just one group of e-bike owners there's they kind of cross the swath of the population. So, you know, you alluded to urban city residents man, like, you know, I live in the suburbs, but every time I go to New York City, I love having an E bike, I can get around much faster than anybody. I mean, I can beat an ambulance across town quite easily. So, for the urban people, like, you're just flying by traffic, there's no, you know, obviously, you don't want to blow any traffic lights and you want to obey everything. But like, for the most part, you're going to be the fastest vehicle on the road. And but for suburbanites like me, like, you know, going to the store, for instance, one thing people don't think about is like, you probably have to park pretty far away and you have to, you know, walk out to your car and do all this other stuff. And by the time you eliminate it, because when you write an E-bike, you pull it out of your garage and drive right up to the store. By the time you do all those things that you have to deal with, you know, find a parking spot, and drive around, whatever. By the time you do all that you're pretty much getting to your destination at this same amount of time with any bike that then when you are with a car, so you know it for me like, when I go somewhere in a car, I kind of just space out and forget about it. But when you're on a bike, it's like a ton of fun you're, you know, hitting the turns  and flying and sees how fast you can pedal. So it's just better in just about every other way. Obviously. When there's a lot of snow when it's raining, that presents some issues, but it's just, you know, as a human being, I think the experience is so much better. You're way more in touch with your environment, you're way more in touch with the people around you. It's just, it's just better in every single way. So there are three official categories of e-bikes in the US and then there's a kind of a fourth category that's unofficial. A category one is a pedal assist up to 20 miles per hour, category two is pedal assist up to 20 miles per hour with a throttle, category three is pedal assist up to 28 miles per hour. And then there's kind of an unofficial category for which is the throttle for 28 miles per hour. And then, you know, in the EU they have a kind of a different kind of motorcycle-ish electric motorcycles category up to around 35 miles per hour.

Dan Seguin  14:23

Thanks, Seth. What is the biggest obstacle and/or opportunity for the mass adoption of E-bikes? Does it take him in this capacity to build an E bike movement? Or where does it begin? Do e-bikes offer a transit solution that can be seamlessly integrated into sustainable city features?

Seth Weintraub  14:44

I'm gonna say like, the roads, like safety, is kind of like the number one thing I think keeps people off of bikes in general. But you know, e-bikes are certainly a part of that. That when bike-specific lanes get put into cities, biking goes way up, safety goes way up. There are even bike lanes. Like if you're on a street with a bike lane. There are still quite a few accidents that happen there. It's better than no bike lane at all. But, having a dedicated, walled-off avenue for bikes is kind of the way to go. And that's one way of jump-starting bikes. My personal belief is biking is going to start with people like getting the word out, getting people educated, getting people on bikes, like, you know,  I'm kind of an evangelist, so to speak. So, you know, I drive my bike to the coffee shop every day, which is about three or four miles or five kilometers. So they, you know, people see the bike and they want to ask questions, I'm like, Hey, get on, go ride around. See what you think and I probably sold, I don't know, 10 or 15 bikes, and just by putting somebody's butt on the seat. So I think you know, if a city is looking for a way to get more people on bikes, they should probably just say, you know, have events like, hey, come grab the bike, or, hey, we're going to do e-bikes, you can rent a bike for give it a try free for day, that kind of thing. You know, obviously Uber's jump and line bike and all those are, are good ways for cities to kind of get into E-biking, although I would say those bikes aren't a great experience. They're certainly better than the equivalent non electric versions.

Dan Seguin  16:44

Now. e-bikes give us another device to charge. Are batteries getting better. How long can they last before recharging?

Seth Weintraub  16:54

Great question. So e-bikes are certainly getting better as batteries get better. technology gets better. One thing I would like to see is e-bikes to adopt USBC. So that's kind of the standard that your MacBook and your PC or laptops are using - goes up to 100 watts would be nice if not only could they charge via USBC, but they could, you know, maybe, you know, in the wintertime when you're not using your bike, you can use the battery as a backup for your home. So if your power goes out, you can use your laptop or power your phone, you know, it adds more utility to the battery on your bike. So that's one thing I think that could make batteries better beyond the more charge. As far as how long do they last before charging, that's, you know, there's big batteries and small batteries and powerful batteries and non-powerful batteries. A typical battery for any bike on a typical e-bike would probably take you around 10 or 20 miles with you know, some pedaling involved. There are  bikes that go hundred miles and there are bikes that probably, you know, you have trouble making it five miles. So you're going to want to check that out probably check out our review maybe on a lab check to see you know what real world range bikes get but you know the least expensive bikes out there, you know, a bike that costs like $700 on Amazon will take you 10 or 20 miles.

Dan Seguin  18:24

Here are two things that I usually avoid talking about on the show: finances and weight. But I have to know, what is the cost range of any bike and how heavy are they? Now, having had to get one on a bike rack to a car, I can attest, they're fairly heavy...

Seth Weintraub  18:43

Yeah. So they're heavier. I think a typical one will weigh around 50 pounds. And you know that's off, probably about double what a typical non electric bike weighs. The good news there is you can kind of just pull off the battery in a lot of cases. So like, if you're putting it on the rack, you can pull off the battery, which is, you know, it'll bring it down to 35 pounds, you still have a heavy motor and some more heavy components that are going to make it a little heavier. But you can put the battery in your car while you're taking it out. So, the cost range is another really tricky one. I mean, you can get very inexpensive ones down, you know four or $500 but those are the smaller tired ones maybe the foldables, very low power very small batteries. You know, there's like four major North American, maybe five brands, just off the top of my head - There's like Saunders evelo Luna juice, and probably the biggest one is Rad. Yeah, so they those are typically cost, like I just bought my father-in-law a Rad runner for I think around 1100 dollars US and you know that's kind of a base model bike it's got fat tires and then you know we got ourselves a Juice Scorpion, which is kind of a more like a more petty looking one and that's that goes for around 1500 dollars you know that's going to be your range of like solid bikes you know 1000 to 1500 is good and then if you're looking for like bike store quality bikes, you know track specialized, you're looking at $2-3,000 I'm currently my daily driver right now is a Gazelle T-10, which is a fantastic bike. You know, all the power I need but still is a biking type of experience. And that that I think runs retails around $3-4,000 depending on the configuration, so pretty wide range.

Dan Seguin  21:06

Okay, let's move on, with the growing concern around preservation and sustainability for future generations, are electric bikes, one of the most environmentally sound means of motorized transportation in the world today?

Seth Weintraub  21:23

Absolutely. And, you know, I didn't allude to it earlier but when you think about how much power you actually need to get, you know, the 5-10 mile commute that you do every day compared to even an electric car - it's a small fraction. So for instance, for my an entire week of going, you know, I do a lot of my work at the coffee shop in town for an entire week, I can go off of one 500 watt hour battery. So, you know, in comparison that would drive my Tesla probably about a mile. So, you know, I'm going, I don't know, 20 times as far as you can go on a car on the same amount of energy. So, you know, if everybody rode a bike instead of, I mean even an electric car and then you know, obviously, gasoline cars are much worse on the environment than that. But I mean, just even compared to an electric car, an electric bike is so much more fuel efficient. You know, obviously 20 people could ride bikes for one person riding a car in terms of energy usage.

Dan Seguin  22:38

Thanks to our green space, and dedicated bike lanes our great city, Ottawa, has a thriving cycling community. What cities in the world are leading the e-bike movement through Policy and Planning? Where are the success stories that Canada can learn from?

Seth Weintraub  22:58

You know, I think the world leader and in biking at least in the Western world would probably be Amsterdam. They kind of took a look way back in the 50s and 60s at their car culture city and kind of reinvented their city around biking and pedestrian traffic and you know obviously the city is much better for it. You know, each city is different. I've been to some places like even Berlin. It had a great way to get around on bikes, there's like dedicated bike lanes and every area. I lived in Paris for a year. They had a couple years they had something called the belly there where this was way early, maybe 10-15 years ago before you know all the  bikes and Uber jumps and you just rent a bike from Any spot, you know, within a few blocks and you can go to any other spot within a few blocks, their roads weren't as bike friendly, but they had, you know, at least a system to get on the bike and get off the bike really easily. So, you know, that's my experience. You know, unfortunately, the US doesn't have too much to offer there. You know, we're very car-culture type of place. I'm trying to think. I don't remember Toronto being a very bike centric area, although I did enjoy a long bike ride in Vancouver. So maybe that's, that's somewhere else to look.

Dan Seguin  24:44

And Seth, what about E-scooters? What are your thoughts?

Seth Weintraub  24:48

Well, I would argue so I've used e-scooters, I would argue that bikes are way safer. You're just standing versus sitting. You're actually getting some exercise on bike scooters are with their smaller wheels not as adept at hitting potholes and stuff like that. I mean, I like scooters, they're energy efficient compared to cars, they're not picking up nearly as much space. But for me, personally, my experience on the bike was much better than a scooter.

Dan Seguin  25:24

Other than the demand for environmentally friendly products, what are the major factors that have contributed to the widespread adoption of electric bike growth in recent years? Do geography and culture play a part?

Seth Weintraub  25:42

Geography definitely plays a part. Certainly, you know, hills make electric bikes more appealing, culture in the sense that you know, if you see somebody riding an e-bike, you become more open to riding with yourself, if your friends and family pick one up and you're going to probably give, give one a try. Other factors that contribute, I think, you know, as I mentioned, for more out there, kind of breeds more, more adoption. And certainly like the technology getting better. The prices of really good batteries are coming down because of all the electric cars and other innovations happening. So it's a combination of things. I'm trying to think of other stuff, you know, hopefully, websites like ours are bringing electric bikes to the forefront, you know, maybe you're a Tesla person and you're like, Hey, you know, I like reading electric for the Tesla coverage, but there's all these really awesome e-bikes we see, maybe pick one of those up too and throw it in my trunk.

Dan Seguin  27:05

Now, what's it like to ride an e-bike in traffic? Numerous studies identify the issues of safety as the key barrier to e-bike adoption. The two primary safety issues are one: the actual safety of the e-bike itself, including its higher operating range relative to a regular bicycle, and two: safely writing an e-bike on the road, Seth, how can these concerns be addressed? And what should beginners know?

Seth Weintraub  27:36

So I agree with that, I think we talked about it earlier about safety being the probably the biggest barrier to e-bike adoption. If you are going to ride on roads. Obviously speed kills the faster you go - when you have an accident, they're more likely you're going to get hurt. But the flip side of that is that if you're driving, if you're riding your bike and you're behaving more like a car, you'll get treated more like a car. So instead of riding, you know, on the white line on the right side of the road, you ride in the middle of the road, and you're and you're riding the speed limit. So, you know, if you're in that 25 mile per hour zone, or 30-35 mile per hour zone, and you're actually going close to the speed limit, cars aren't going to feel the need to overtake you. So you can kind of become one, you know, one of them on the road, just that you know, kind of like a motorcycle would kind of think of itself as a, you know, a road citizen. So that for me is the big difference. When I ride around town or people don't try to overtake me because I'm, I'm riding the same speed as cars. Obviously, when somebody sees somebody on a bike, though, they're in the car, their first thought is Oh crap, I got to you know, figure out a way to get around this guy, but, you know, if I'm riding in the middle of the road and I'm going the speed limit, there's really no reason to try to get around me. And they just kind of settle in behind me. Hopefully.

Dan Seguin  29:10

Okay, Seth, how about we close off this podcast with rapid fire questions? I hope you are ready.

Seth Weintraub  29:18

Oh, God. Yeah.

Dan Seguin  29:20

What is your favorite word?

Seth Weintraub  29:23

Electrification.

Dan Seguin  29:24

What is one of the things you can't live without?

Seth Weintraub  29:27

I'm going to get sappy and say: family.

Dan Seguin  29:29

What is something that challenges you?

Seth Weintraub  29:35

Well, you know, my day to day is publishing. So I'm going to probably go with Google's publishing world.

Dan Seguin  29:44

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Seth Weintraub  29:48

Just flying would be fine.

Dan Seguin  29:50

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?

Seth Weintraub  29:56

Relax, maybe like things are going to come together. Pretty good. I don't know. I kind of feel like there's a lot of anxiety around 18. So one of those, you know, don't, don't get too discouraged.

Dan Seguin  30:15

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Seth Weintraub  30:21

So for us, what's super interesting is that we are, you know, at a crossroads. So it's, what's interesting to us is like, we know where we're going to be in a few years where we know that, you know, Norway is a good example. They're kind of ahead of the curve 60% of the cars they buy, and obviously, a lot of their bikes are electrified. We know we're going to get there but it's always interesting to see how we're going to get there. It's interesting watching people's minds change. I was at a socially distant dinner party last night, and somebody who I had no idea was interested in electric vehicles was like, Yeah, I got to get an electric bike. And I know my next car is going to be electric. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of going mainstream now. So that's kind of like, what's super interesting for me.

Dan Seguin  31:21

While Seth, we reached the end of another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you? How can they connect?

Seth Weintraub  31:31

So visit Electrek.co We, um, there. We have a podcast every Friday. And I'm @llsethj on Twitter. That's kind of my outlet of choice for non-story items.

Dan Seguin  31:52

Again, Seth, thank you so much for joining me today. It was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed it. Cheers.

Seth Weintraub  32:00

Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

Dan Seguin  32:04

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #34:

What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground, and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings – or even whole communities? You get something called district energy. In this episode, Jeff Westeinde, President of Zibi Canada and Founding partner of Windmill Development Group, shares his passion for environmental sustainability, designing communities to support One Planet Living, and leveraging age-old systems like district energy as a means of achieving a zero carbon footprint.

Related Content & Links:

• Hydro Ottawa – https://hydroottawa.com/
• Zibi Canada – https://www.zibi.ca
• Linkedin - Jeff Westeinde: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-westeinde-a46b4843/

---------------------------

Transcript

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. What happens when you use a network of hot and cold water pipes, bury them underground and then use them to efficiently heat and cool buildings - even whole communities, you get something called 'district energy'. And it's not a new concept. A quick search will reveal that its origins can be traced back to the second century BC to the invention of the hypocaust heating systems that powered the hot water bath of the ancient Roman Empire. Famously a hot water distribution system in Chaudes-Aigues, in France, is regarded as the first real district heating system. It used geothermal energy to provide heat for about 30 houses in the 14th century, and the US Naval Academy in Annapolis began steam district heating in 1853. If you're like me, maybe you're wondering why modern civilization did not continue to use this efficient and environmentally sustainable technology more. There are some European countries such as Denmark, where district energy is mandated, but for the most part, it is largely gone the way of ancient Rome and public bathing. The latter is not such a bad thing in my mind, with more and more socially conscious citizens around the globe, district energy is once again seeing a surge in popularity and becoming a preferred method, thanks to its lower and energy efficient operating costs, reduced supply disruptions, and environmentally sound methods of heating and cooling buildings, municipalities and property owners are intrigued by this ancient alternative energy technology. So, here's today's big question: Is the world ready to embrace district energy as a viable means to power our communities? Is the nation's capital ready to have the first one planet zero carbon community district energy system in the country? Well, my guest today is the founding partner of the THEIA partnership. One of Canada's most sustainable real estate development companies, as well as the president of Zibi Canada, which aims to be Canada's most sustainable development project. He's also an active investor and entrepreneur in both environmental, clean tech and real estate sector with active investments in solar energy, site remediation, and the beneficial reuse of waste. Dear listeners, please welcome Jeff Westeinde. Jeff, can we start by you telling us a bit about your background, the Zibi project and what drives your passion to build sustainable communities?

Jeff Westeinde  04:02

Well, so I guess my background, I always say I'm an entrepreneur. I'm an engineer by training, but entrepreneur by practice. So I've, I've had one, what I call real job in my career, I worked for a company for a little over a year, it quickly became apparent that I was unemployable. So I had to start my own business. And I've always been in the environmental sector. So I started I started my career as an environmental contractor cleaning up industrial messes and some of the wastes of the past. And as part of that, I would watch our clients the way they were cleaning up properties, and then what they would do to redevelop them. And I was pursuing trying to, you know, clean up the environment, make the planet a better place. And yet, so the practices we were using, were actually making it worse. We're trucking contaminated soils. You know, the time I lived in BC, we're picking up soil, putting it in a dump truck and hauling it across the Rocky Mountains into a landfill in Alberta. And nobody can tell me that's good for the environment. So very good. quickly decided that we shouldn't say very quickly but decided while I continue to move up the food chain, and start to buy contaminated properties and start to develop places and communities. And because we were purchasing contaminated properties, the commitment that we had was, let's do better than we've done before. So let's push the envelope about how can we live in a sustainable way? How can we ensure that what we're building today doesn't cause the problems that we're cleaning up on the very site for developing so that's maybe a bit of a background as to you know, why how I got into this and in my passion around, you know, leaving, like, I don't know if you're ever in the wilderness, but there's a rule, leave the campsite better than you found it. And I think that rule, that should be a planet wide rule, and it's historically as you know, as not being so.

Dan Seguin  05:51

Okay, Jeff, you're on the record saying that the way we build communities does not support health, happiness or the environment. What do you mean by that? And how does Zibi differentiate?

Jeff Westeinde  06:07

So, I might even be so bold as to say that, I would argue that most of our planning, especially in North America, is actually shortening the lifespan of our own citizens. And that's because we're so car reliant. We're so socially isolated in the way that we build. So think about a typical suburb. In a typical suburb, if you want to get up and, you know, go get a coffee, buy some milk, bring your kids to school, the very first thing you do is go hop in your car and drive. And that that leads to, you know, the stats that can predict the rate of diabetes, the rate of obesity, the rate of all sorts of other chronic diseases by the postal code you live in, was shocking. So, this car centric suburban lifestyle is not good for you. So that's the health side of it. The happiness side of it, I'll just point to one stat. And that's that you can use, there are statistics that say you can determine the level of happiness of somebody by how many of their neighbors they know by first name. Well, when you live in the suburbs, you know, you might know 2, 3, 4 neighbors, or those people whose kids are your age, or those guys you play hockey with, but you don't have the unexpected collisions as you're walking to the coffee shop or as you're bringing your kids to school. So again, that urban sprawl arguably leads to a lot of source of social isolation. And if something happens to an older person, you fall, you break a leg, even as a young person and you're inside your house. Similarly, you're not looking out your window and seeing people and waving at them and those types of things. So how we build our communities, I think is really important for health, happiness and obviously for environmental sustainability. And what we're doing at Zibi is making sure that you will not be car centric, that you do have these collisions with your neighbors. As you're walking around the neighborhood. We actually have social programming that, you know, we have snowshoe nights and that when Cirque du Soleil comes, we have a night that is just for the residents of Zibi that come, you know those kinds of things to make sure you feel like a part of that community.

Dan Seguin  08:28

 How did you discover the one planet system? What can you tell us about it and your goal to build the first one in Canada?

Jeff Westeinde  08:38

Well, so we'll talk about how we discovered it first, and that's good. Myself and my business partners were behind the very first LEED Platinum buildings in Canada. So we built the first LEED Platinum building in BC, Alberta, Ontario, and in the country as a whole and the LEED Platinum building we built in Alberta - I was visiting one day A couple years after we'd built it, and LEED Platinum is literally the Platinum standard, the most sustainable in the lead system. And I watched one of the residents of his LEED Platinum condominium building drive a Hummer SUV into the parking garage, and said, you know, it's great that our building is sustainable, but we really have an impact and how the users are using the building and how they're, how they're living their lives. So we started scouring the planet, literally to say, Well, is there a system that would really impact not only how we build our buildings and how they operate at a point in time, but how do we engage the people, the users that are using those places? So one planet, we get rated on things like health and happiness and social engagement, along with all the other architectural and engineering features of a community. And the way one planet works: very simple. The name says it all we have to live as if we only have one planet. Most people when I say that look at me and sort of go, but we only do have one planet. And we need to remind them that if you live like a typical Canadian, you're using four planets of resources to sustain your unsustainable lifestyle, and Americans using five planets, Europeans using three planets, and all we're doing is stealing from future generations, and the developing world to sustain our unsustainable lifestyles. So one planet really is all about both environmental sustainability, like technical sustainability and social sustainability, with one planet worth of resources, and it's a very holistic program. Very audacious goals, we're going to talk about zero carbon. So as you know, Zibi is in the nation’s capital in Ottawa and Gatineau. You know, we are we are today we're going to be at plus 34 degrees. Six months from now we'll be at minus 34 degrees Celsius and to be zero carbon in this environment. It's the Holy Grail. So achieving one planet is not an easy thing to do very audacious. But that's where we said, No, that's the bar we need to hit, we need to again, leave our campsite better than we came to it.

Dan Seguin  11:13

I was fascinated that this method, 'district energy' dates back, like I think is 3000 or 4000 years to the time of the Roman Empire. What are some of the key benefits of the energy system you're implementing in your community? And why has it taken this long for folks to embrace it with it's being around for so long?

Jeff Westeinde  11:40

Well, like most technological breakthroughs, it is not the technology itself or even the concept itself that gets in the way, its people. So regulators, you know, if you look at how our grid works, say in Ontario, you cannot run a district electrical system. I can't, I couldn't produce energy and give it to my neighbor. Because we have a regulatory body that says you can't do it. And there are good reasons for that it was around safety and security and all those types of things. But we've ended up with all of these barriers, that that would prohibit the transportation and sale of energy. And, you know, I talked about electricity. But what's very interesting at Zibi - our district energy system is just hot and cold water. And there are no regulations currently in Ontario and Quebec, around moving hot and cold water. So that allowed us to start a district energy system. Answer so yeah. Again, the reason I would say you don't see more of them is the regulatory hurdles to implement the district energy system are enormous. However, the benefits are huge. And I'll use a very, you know, high level example that if you were to have a, you know, a Shopify data center, a good Canadian company, unlike Amazon, as a for instance. That is in constant cooling. So it's rejecting heating all the time. Right? And beside it, you have the Nordic spa, another great company that always needs heating, but needs to therefore be rejecting cooling. When you put those two side by side, and they're swapping energy back and forth. So your load is so much less. That's the concept of District energy is that by sharing and you know, a commercial building has different loads than a residential building has different loads than a retail building. By sharing those loads, they have different peaks, either for peak shades, you'd be you have less capital expenditure and you're more efficient. Why is it taking so long? It drives me crazy, but I really do think it's regulation is the key item why.

Dan Seguin  13:52

Aside from regulation, what have been the challenges you encountered bringing this technology to market in Canada? The sight of your one planet community alone, straddling Ontario and Quebec, is really unique. Tell us about the challenges and how your passion has gotten you through.

Jeff Westeinde  14:12

Yeah, I'm not sure how long this podcast is, but I could talk for a week about the challenges. Yeah, as you talked about, we do span the provincial border between Ontario and Quebec. You know, we jokingly say, both sides have a different word for everything. Because one speaks French one speaks English. Even the rule of law is different to one side of the other the legal system. So, you know, we need to repeat everything twice when we do this, but what I'll tell you is, I would say that the way that we've overcome what are just an enormous amount of challenges, I won't even get into what they all are, but it was it was crazy. Boy, when we overcome it was we shared our vision. And actually, I would say was our community's vision of saying, this is where our region started. Arguably, this is where, you know, the roots of our country started was on this site. And when we when we purchased the property was a fenced off locked off contaminated former industrial site that nobody had seen unless you worked at domtar. For probably 100 years, people didn't realize there's a waterfall in the middle of the city. What the community talked about in the vision that we had was no, we need to do something truly world class like something that people would come to our region and say Quebecers Ontarians, Canadians, look at the communities and the places that they create. And with that vision of being world class, we were fortunate that that politicians in the region, federal, municipal and provincial, all endorsed out the community endorse it. So when we started to bump up against bureaucracy and regulations, we were able to remind everybody that our commitment or contract to all of our stakeholders was, we're going to do some world class. Now world class, meaning different, and bureaucracies and regulations exist to enforce the same. So we were able to say, listen, you've got to empower, talk to the politicians, you've got to empower the bureaucrats who are paid to make sure that everybody does everything the same, to say, No, we've got to look at this one differently. We're not looking to do anything unsafe or unreasonable. But there's a better way and we've got to find it. And it was really that vision of world class and the endorsement that we got from all of the public stakeholders who said, yeah, we want to be world class. We don't want to just build another suburb of the City of Ottawa or Gatineau.

Dan Seguin  16:47

Now through a marketing lens, how did you position this alternative energy system that provides heating and cooling to your communities' new housing projects? What was the value proposition for prospective buyers and investors.

Jeff Westeinde  17:03

I think the key one, one of the lessons we've learned about sustainability and building sustainable buildings and building sustainable communities, is, most consumers don't, you know, while it's a nice to have being sustainable, it's not something that they're making a purchasing decision around. That's changing. I think more and more people are starting to look at that, but historically hasn't been important. So the key to sustainability is, we need to, we're going to allow you to be much more environmentally sustainable, socially sustainable, without any impact to your lifestyle. So when it comes to district heating and cooling, we said, listen, we're going to deliver you zero carbon district heating and cooling at the same market cost as a carbon based system, and you won't know. If you know you're going to turn your heat on, it's going to get hot, you're going to turn up your cooling on it's going to get cool, and you're not going to pay any more of the market. So that was that batten marketing. I mean, that's a no brainer to everybody that Okay, hold on, I get the exact same as I would get in a carbon based system but I'm zero carbon or more sustainable. That's a pretty easy sell at that point.

Dan Seguin  18:11

Okay, now I'd like to explore design aspects. District energy equipment inside a building occupies about one fifth of the area of conventional systems that boilers and chillers take up. I'm assuming this provides more flexibility in designing your buildings and community. By eliminating traditional HVAC systems, what building design options did this enable you to expand on?

Jeff Westeinde  18:44

There's some easy ones like if you think about rooftop patios, as a for instance, you know, if you have a rooftop patio beside a big chiller that's making a bunch of noise is not a great rooftop. So by  being able to eliminate that equipment. You know, our rooftop patios are much nicer. But really as a place maker, as a developer, the key aspect for us was if you know if you take all of that mechanical and electrical distribution space, and you end up with instead real estate that you can use, it's another added benefit to saying that that district energy makes financial sense or can make financial sense. It wasn't easy to unlock that but can make financial sense. So, so yeah, it obviously the less constraints you have on a building, the more flexibility you have and district is one tool for that for sure.

Dan Seguin  19:45

Now, wondering if you could zero in on the energy distribution system that harnesses excess heat from the Kruger paper mill on the Ottawa River and the temporary thermal plant that was or is built to serve residents businesses in your community.

Jeff Westeinde  20:02

Sure, yeah. So are, you know, like talking about the benefits, or sorry, the rationale behind district that if you have different energy cycles between neighboring buildings, you can share that energy. Our district energy system is actually based on that very same principle that Kruger operates a tissue mill, directly across from Parliament Hill. They, it's a very efficient, very successful mill. But as part of that process, they bring in millions of litres of water a day, heated up to over 40 degrees Celsius. Use it several times in their papermaking process, but then discharge it into the Ottawa River at about 30 degrees Celsius, anywhere from 25 to 30. So what we're doing is saying listen, you're discharging the millions of liters of hot water into the Ottawa River. Why don't we strip that heat so then what we're doing is we're taking it from 25 to 30 degrees down to seven to 10 degrees and discharging out into the Ottawa. River in our heating system or in the heating season. So that's the concept behind it's very rudimentary engineering, it's strictly heat transfer between water. So, so pretty straightforward from that point of view. What the temporary plane that you speak about is our district energy system. That backbone heating system at Kruger is not yet built that's getting built this season. However, we have users in our buildings right now. So, we have temporary plants that are providing that but the infrastructure for the district the pipes in the streets and hot and cold water system is there. So those temporary plants are going to operate for about another year, after which will be on our permanent system.

Dan Seguin  21:44

In addition to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and improving energy resilience. Is it fair to say that district energy deliver economies of scale in areas with high population? What are some of the short and long term benefits for the owner and end user alike? And how do these factor into the government carbon reduction targets?

Jeff Westeinde  22:12

Well, yeah, so the short term is if you can be more efficient, so if you have dense populations with different energy cycles, so different peaks and whatnot, as we talked about earlier, you need to spend less capital because you're peaking is at a lower level. And you're sharing energy between so that your overall initial energy utilization from the grid or from the gas system is lower because you're sharing more so overall that drives efficiency. And at the end of the day efficiency then drives lower greenhouse gas emissions and ideally, lower and more stable costs because your energy inputs are a lower percentage of the overall district. So say in our case, you if we're harnessing heat from Kruger, there are no escalation in the cost of that heat. It is waste industrial heat that otherwise wouldn't go anywhere. Whereas if we're connected to the Ontario grid, as you know, you know, costs have escalated very significantly. So that energy input if that is our key input, our energy costs are going to be higher. So we're fortunate that again, the combination of we sit in Ontario and in Quebec, so we have two different electrical and two different gas grids. We have waste heat and our cooling is going to come largely from the Ottawa River. So we have low cost inputs with waste heat and Ottawa River cooling. And we have four different grids we can tap into for alternative and for other energy if need be. So that then allows us to control our costs. So again, just an example of how you can drive efficiency and provide more price stability, while at the same time reducing emissions.

Dan Seguin  24:00

Okay. Do alternative energy sources like district energy reduce exposure to fluctuating energy prices? How are the rates/cost determined for residents? Are they comparable to current rates? And are they stable?

Jeff Westeinde  24:19

Yeah, so, yes, not all district energy systems are the same. Obviously, it depends on what those inputs are. But in the case of the Zibi community utility, our district energy system, but then our key inputs are that waste industrial heat and cooling base from the Ottawa River, both of which obviously have are stable. There's there is no Yeah, well, I shouldn't say we have some commercial transactions that go on without but not like the grid that allows us to decrease our reliance on the grid for other inputs. So to answer the question on rates, yes, our rates are comparable to market. And we've actually indexed them to the price of Quebec hydroelectricity. And for anyone that understands electrical grids, I would suggest that in North America, Quebec is likely the most stable grid in all of North America. I would say that it is a national utility for the province of Quebec. And I would say, you know, all Canadians are very proud of our healthcare and if they ever tried to take it away, there'd be riots in the streets. I would suggest that if anybody tried to raise electrical rates in Quebec, similar to what's happened Ontario, there would be even bigger riots in the streets. So, you know, we are expecting that will allow us to provide really stable pricing over the long term to our, to our customers.

Dan Seguin  25:47

Now, how important was it to find a strategic partner like Hydro Ottawa that had more than 100 years of experience and a strong track record to create safe and reliable utility infrastructure,

Jeff Westeinde  26:03

The partnership with hydro auto was critical. And again, consumer acceptance of that of the district energy system. You know, if you think about reliability if you're a consumer at Zibi, and you said, Okay, well what happens if my heating or cooling goes off? Who do I call if I see, well, you know, I am Jeff and here's my cell phone, you know, call me up at the cottage and I'll see if I can help you. That's not exactly reassuring. When you say 'Well, you call Hydro Ottawa" and they will is not who I would normally, you know, they, they're, they're, you know, the relative reliability stats of Hydro Ottawa better than me, but it's 99.999 something percent uptime, you know, 24 hour response, etc., etc. So, being able to bring that credibility of a utility operator to our district was absolutely critical for overall consumer acceptance and I would even say regulatory acceptance. You know, when we started talking about listen we're going to be moving hot and cold water in the you know energy in the form of hot and cold water around the around our community all municipal officials provincially "Okay, let you know if they did you have experience with this?" when we say well, Hydro Ottawa is our partner, it is an automatic acceptance of all know, okay, you guys are credible we understand let's carry on. So don't having Hydro Ottawa as a partner has been truly exceptional for us to be able to pioneer this,

Dan Seguin  27:29

Jeff, in addition to district energy, what else is he planning to feature in terms of other advanced technology and innovation to achieve zero carbon living for the residents and tenants on site?

Jeff Westeinde  27:46

Yeah, again, I know your podcast is not that long so I could talk forever about this, but I'll give you some key examples. So you know, again, trying to decrease reliance on carbon based transportation systems. So you know, the personal vehicle. You know, having car sharing, having excellent access to transit, when you're looking at other things that have a carbon footprint, how we build our buildings, the components that go into our buildings, the materials that go into our buildings, some are very carbon intensive. So again, we're targeting those that aren't carbon intensive. Even things like if you look at logistics, you know, when you buy a head of lettuce at the at the grocery store, the carbon it took to get that lettuce to the grocery store is embedded in that very product. So having urban agriculture, you'll see urban gardens, we've got a couple on site now. So all sorts of areas where anywhere where we can target things that are that use carbon to get delivered to or to, as part of the system that we're in. We're looking at incrementally changing all of those things. And those increments when they add up, turn into some big numbers. So that's really our focus.

Dan Seguin  29:06

Jeff, how about we close off with some rapid fire questions? Are you ready to go? What is your favorite word?

Jeff Westeinde  29:15

Serendipity. Yeah, I love serendipity. Because good things happen when you're not paying attention.

Dan Seguin  29:20

What is one thing you can't live without?

Jeff Westeinde  29:24

That's an easy one. My wife. I could be dead without that woman!

Dan Seguin  29:30

What is something that challenges you?

Jeff Westeinde  29:33

The word "No." I'm not good at taking the word 'No', it's how Zibi exists.

Dan Seguin  29:38

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Jeff Westeinde  29:41

I'd love to be a shapeshifter, be able to get inside different systems, different beings and understand how and why they work. I have endless curiosity. So I think being a shapeshifter would be amazing.

Dan Seguin  29:53

If you had to turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?

Jeff Westeinde  29:59

First, I would say smarten up and stop doing dumb things. But no, I think the one thing I would say is listen, relax. You know, something that has come to ring true with me, the Roman philosopher Seneca said, you know, "luck happens when opportunity meets preparedness". And I've been very fortunate to be lucky. But there's only one thing I can control in there. I can't control luck, I can't control opportunity. All I can do is control preparedness. So get prepared and just relax, pay attention, good things will happen.

Dan Seguin  30:31

And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Jeff Westeinde  30:36

I love the fact that public health - so right now, you know, as you know, we're in the middle of a covid pandemic - public health is leading that across our country. But here in Ottawa, it's Vera Etches, I love the fact that our public health officials are starting to be included in our urban planning policies. So in Ottawa, Vera Etches participated in that. So remember I said earlier, you know, the way we plan is shortening the lifespan of our citizens. Public health starting to get involved in that. I'm really hoping that there will be an influence where they'll say, "if we planned communities this way, then here are the health benefits of it. If we do it that way, here's the health benefits." That's not currently happening. So I find that really exciting.  Well, Jeff, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast, last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about you and Zibi? How can they better connect? So, you know, we've been talking mostly about the Zibi project, which is one of the many things I do you know, if you go to Zibi.ca, then you can find more about Zibi and if you look to [email protected] anybody that wants to connect they're very good at getting people to me. I'm not much of a social media person, I do have a LinkedIn profile. I don't use it very often. But you can find me on LinkedIn and I'm good at responding to messages there as well.

Dan Seguin  32:09

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Jeff Westeinde  32:13

Well, this was fun, Dan, and thank you for your interest in Zibi and one planet. That's fantastic.

Dan Seguin  32:20

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website HydroOttawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #24:

With a nation-wide commitment to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050 as well as an increase in climate change awareness, has eco-purchasing in Canada increased? In other words, are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health? Dianna Miller, Chief of ENERGY STAR shares about the ENERGY STAR program and how it works to not only motivate the production of energy-conscious products, but also to help homeowners and businesses make energy-conscious buying decisions. 

Related Content & Links:

•       www.energystar.gov

Transcript:

 Dan Seguin  00:00

Hey everyone. Welcome to the summer rewind edition of the think energy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy Days of Summer, we're bringing back some blast from our podcast past, we'll be reintroducing some of the most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest, perhaps not a coincidence. But they're all focused on the future of the energy sector with themes like renewable energy, green innovation, and being eco conscious. So I hope you truly enjoy our summer rewind edition. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back September 6 to kick off another exciting season of the think energy podcast. I'm Dan Sega from hydro Ottawa, and I'll be hosting the think energy podcast. So here's today's big question. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders, as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned. as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry. This is the think energy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of The think energy podcast. The demand for green buildings, electric vehicles, and renewable generation is changing the way we think about and use energy. So much, so it influences what we purchase. The demand is a result of the rising concern for climate change, which is creating a new reality for our planet, but also a new reality for brands and consumers. Consumers want clean technology solutions, sustainability, less pollution. And they want brands that are just as concerned about the environment as they are. More and more consumers want to do business with companies that are environmentally conscious. And they're using their wallet to send that message loud and clear. Now, chances are you likely know the ENERGY STAR brand, its logo has become the trusted symbol for energy efficiency products, particularly in the home appliance space. But did you know the ENERGY STAR certification extends to homes, buildings and industrial plants in the US alone, ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 3 billion metric tons since 1992. That's equivalent to an annual emission of over 600 million cars. And talk about brand recognition. In its recent survey, more than 90% of US households recognize the ENERGY STAR logo. So let's begin with today's big question. With an increase in climate change awareness. Has environmental purchasing increased meaning are more people buying products and services that have less impact on the environment and human health. Joining us today I have from the Office of Energy efficiency. Diana Miller, Chief of Energy Star. Welcome, Diana. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Maybe you can start by providing our listeners with a quick overview of what it is that you do. And what is the Energy Star program.

Dianna Miller  03:49

So ENERGY STAR is a program that was created by the United States Environmental Protection Agency in Canada actually has administered it since 2001, via an agreement at its core ENERGY STAR is a binary label. So the presence of an ENERGY STAR label on a product or a new home an existing building or an industrial facility just designates that entity as energy efficient. So ENERGY STAR is basically a program where we do all of the work, we do the research and the homework and we kind of crunch all the numbers and come up with a really good way to show that a product is efficient. And then our stakeholders, our partners go out and certify those things products, homes, buildings and industrial facilities to those standards. And then they slap a label on it and it makes it really, really easy then for consumers and citizens to go and find the most energy efficient thing really quickly and reliably. So that's what the program is. And what I do, I have actually two functions. So I'm the brand manager for energy star in Canada so I just kind of help promote the brand and protect brand integrity. On behalf of the Government of Canada, I also administer the Energy Star program for products. So like I said before, we certify a lot of different things, including products, there's about 80 different product types that we certify. And so I also manage the products program element.

Dan Seguin  05:15

Very cool. That's where we connect is my job here is to preserve, protect and promote the brands. Right, so Okay. What is the role of the Energy Star program to achieve Canada's net zero emission future by 2050? And to build a net zero emissions economy? How important is it to expand the numbers of retrofits in a year? Last part of it? Lastly, how does the program help the environment?

Dianna Miller  05:45

Well, to start with the role of Energy Star, and achieving a net zero economy is, again, I'm going to go back to the simplicity of the Energy Star program. So ENERGY STAR is something that I think every Canadian has seen 80% of Canadians recognize and understand it. So ENERGY STAR is a really easy, accessible way for Canadians to take action on a day to day basis. And every tiny incremental action, whether it's buying a light bulb, a fridge, a heating system, a certified home or leasing space, in a certified office building, all of those tiny incremental actions add up to really, really big energy savings. So I want to talk about how the Energy Star program helps the environment, one of the key things that ENERGY STAR achieves is just doing the same amount of work, or performing the same functions using less energy. And whether you're looking at energy that's, you know, generated by coal, whether you're looking at Burning gas, or fossil fuels, or even clean energy like hydro energy, using less energy just means that that energy that you're not using can be used for other things. In Canada, while we do have a lot of very, very clean hydro energy, using too much of it during peak hours means that then all of a sudden, you've got not clean energy that has to kick in. And so if you use less of it, then you're not having to switch over to the not clean energy.

Dan Seguin  07:22

Yeah, I think we're gonna have to set ourselves up, though. Because on that storage will come into play. When we're talking about solar, when we're talking about wind, those will be two big players. And but to make those more efficient, you'll need the storage component to work with that also.

Dianna Miller  07:40

Oh, absolutely. You know, the other thing that I just like to point out is that ENERGY STAR isn't just about using less energy, I mean, it's definitely the key element of the program. So it's an Energy Efficiency Program. And using less energy potentially has has the role of less fossil fuel emissions. However, I think the other thing that we have to look at is ENERGY STAR wades into water territory. So the United States government administers a WaterSense program. And so when you're taking a look at the amount of water that a washer uses, or a dishwasher, ENERGY STAR really tries to cut back on those as well. You can also look at electronics and how they're trying to use less rare earth metals and trying to look at recyclability and things like that. So ENERGY STAR is about more than just energy use. It's definitely the primary function of the program. But definitely, we're looking at other things, even in terms of the controllability of a product. So if a product is connectable to, to the internet, then you know, you can control the product so that it's using less energy at a time where maybe there's dirty energy generation. So being able to connect to a product as a consumer or even as a utility, you know, you can reduce the amount of energy that a product is using when you're using fossil fuel generation.

Dan Seguin  08:59

Well, I just actually subscribed to Hydro Quebec through Hilo program, which is basically them setting up sensors all around the house, where they can actually go on a day where there's a bitter cold, and they will actually just via an email, send me send me a notification that they will bring down the temperature at home and am I okay with that? And then they incentivize you to do more.

Dianna Miller  09:26

That's right. And ENERGY STAR has built in principles of connectivity into a lot of their different product categories. They're moving in that direction with what they call the Smart Home Energy Management System, where they're, you know, working with service providers and utilities as well as manufacturers to kind of come up with an ideal scenario where a home can be more easily controlled and use less energy, especially at marginal periods where you know, you're worried about that fossil fuel energy generation,

Dan Seguin  09:53

what level of influence does the Energy Star label have on the purchasing decision of consumers

Dianna Miller  10:00

Over the last few years, ENERGY STAR Canada has. We do Public Opinion Research. I'll say that so every couple of years we put out a national survey, we try to figure out, you know, how aware Canadians are of the ENERGY STAR symbol of the program, if they understand what it means and that kind of thing. And one of the things that we started asking is, for people who have actually purchased an ENERGY STAR certified product or home, did that symbol affect that purchase decision? And overwhelmingly, the answer is, yes. So out of people that have purchased ENERGY STAR certified things in Canada in 2018, I think there was about 75% said it's because, or maybe not uniquely, because but definitely the symbol played a role that certification work.

Dan Seguin  10:45

Absolutely. Like you just look at Windows as an example.

Dianna Miller  10:48

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a really big one, especially in a lot of the country. Now, ENERGY STAR certified windows are incented by different provincial or utility incentive programs. Because we know that they perform better. And, you know, people go into a store, that's not even the symbol influences them. It's, you know, just the knowledge that they're better people go into a store and ask for them by name. So yeah,

Dan Seguin  11:15

how does the energuide program fit into this equation?

Dianna Miller  11:20

inner guide and ENERGY STAR complimentary programs. So now, just as a caveat, energuide is a symbol that or a rating program that exists also for vehicle labels, Soviet vehicle fuel consumption, as well as home energy consumption. So I'm speaking specifically about the integrated label on products. But the great thing about the Energuide label is, like I said, it complements the Energy Star label in that it's not a binary label. So where ENERGY STAR either is there or isn't there on major appliances in room air conditioners in Canada, it's required by law, so it's always there. And what it does is it tells you how that product that you're looking at performs among all of the products that exist in Canada. So you know that that there's a scale on it. And it's going to say the best performing product and the worst performing product, and there's an arrow that's going to tell you where the product that you're looking at right now, is in terms of everything else. Now, if it's an ENERGY STAR certified product, what's cool is that you're going to see an ENERGY STAR symbol on that label. So that you know that okay, the product is ENERGY STAR certified. Okay, and it performs here, I could perhaps be getting something even better than this. So I mean, if you're looking for the absolute best efficiency, you know, that energuide label is going to help push you even further than, you know, basic ENERGY STAR levels. So it's kind of cool. It's also going to kind of give you an idea of like I said, were in a product in a product class that product performs so that you know, you know how much room you have to move, you have a general idea of maybe the energy savings that could be achieved, and therefore your bills savings that could be achieved by moving to a more efficient product.

Dan Seguin  13:05

We're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today are multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?

Dianna Miller  13:31

I think for those of us that work in energy efficiency, everything is an opportunity. So absolutely, I mean, I see it as an as an opportunity for the Energy Star program. In fact, ENERGY STAR launched a pilot program a couple of years ago in Canada, to address this very phenomenon that, you know, multifamily buildings are really where we're moving. I mean, high density housing is good for everybody. But that's going to require much better construction practices. And that's where ENERGY STAR comes in, you know, ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings means that the that structure is going to perform 15% better in terms of efficiency than a building built to code. And again, you know, as code moves, that level moves as well. So, I mean, for a consumer again, quick and easy, right, you're looking at a building that's got that symbol on it, you know that you're going to be moving into unit in a building where your bills are going to be lower. So it's a no brainer for consumers. So we're really hoping that this this program takes off and and shows, you know, successful numbers. I think it's super great program for builders, and I'm really hoping that builders kind of catch the energy star bug and start signing on to this program, because it's consumers are looking for that right now. Consumers are looking for better options and they don't have it in that area right now. That's why ENERGY STAR has moved into that field. So a successful pilot means that we can move that program out into the rest of the country. And so that right now, like I said, it's localized in Ontario, and we really want to see it everywhere.

Dan Seguin  15:09

Is that something along the lines of what I think it was Quebec had no Volk, novo Kima is along that line.

Dianna Miller  15:16

So I think the Quebec program was more associated with I don't know that it was for new construction. So the thing with energy stars were we've created a, like a specification, I guess. So we're creating a standard that builders can use. And so it's kind of like a blueprint in a way. And that's why it's, I mean, I like to emphasize ENERGY STAR for new homes ENERGY STAR for multifamily buildings, it's a program that's just as much for for builders as it is for consumers. Because it's giving builders an affordable, easy way, a reliable way to build energy efficient structures, things that consumers want, and there's a huge demand for it. So and then, not only that, but ENERGY STAR sells, right, everybody knows what it means.

Dan Seguin  16:05

Okay, now, we are seeing more and more cities or municipalities looking for ways to reduce costs and emissions. What makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings special?

Dianna Miller  16:18

Well, I want to go back to the foundation for Energy Star certified buildings. First, if I may, the idea of certifying a building as ENERGY STAR comes first from being able to measure the energy consumption of that building reliably. And so we have the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager building benchmarking tool. And that's a mouthful. In Canada, I'll try not to say it, I'm going to shorten to the term Portfolio Manager

Dan Seguin  16:46

At least you didn't use an acronym.

Dianna Miller  16:48

That's true. Yeah, that's government, people tend to do that a lot. But Portfolio Manager really rocks, like, I have to say, you know, we brought it into Canada, we created unique Canadian archetypes, for different building types. So you can right now I'll use school boards as an example. Because I mean, seriously, it's, it's just, it's great. So you've got like 600 schools or something like that, and, and between your best performing school and your worst performing school, if you're not really benchmarking the energy consumption of those schools, and they could all be built exactly at the same time by exactly the same builder and they're all performing differently, you're not going to know that unless you're actually measuring the energy use. So I have to say, that's the first step. And and governments are just as interested with Portfolio Manager as they are with ENERGY STAR certification. And in fact, all across Canada and the US, Portfolio Manager ratings are becoming mandatory. So that's a very, very important first step. And then of course, the next step is once you've started measuring your energy consumption, you can start making reliable improvements, you can start understanding how changing this or that or improving this or that it's going to affect your bottom line affect your score. And, of course, yes, shoot for the moon, you know, ENERGY STAR certified buildings are the top 25% in their class. And so, you know, you've got those 600 schools, and you've got a couple that are really performing well. Yeah, you know, making a few improvements can push them up into the top 25 percentile. And then the next thing you know, you've got a certified building. And that's, that's awesome. When you're looking at office space, particularly commercial buildings, those actually sell better, you know, and they're worth more. And so for property owners and managers, it's a really big deal. But for governments, I have to say I go back to portfolio manager and you know, just having a reliable rating, a reliable score, where you can compare one building to another is good for just about everybody.

Dan Seguin  18:52

Okay, Energy Star is a trusted brand that requires staying top of mind. We also know that brand health is increasingly being dictated through social media and digital channels. How do you manage brand consistency in an increasingly digital world that includes the influence of public sentiment and opinion? What can companies learn from ENERGY STAR?

Dianna Miller  19:20

Well, I'll start with brand health and and for me, that equates to brand integrity. I'm really lucky and that ENERGY STAR Canada is one country in a kind of an international network of Energy Star programs owned and managed by the United States Environmental Protection Agency. So we're one element that said, you know, we are I am in charge of the integrity of the brand in in Canada. One thing that we do is we're very strict with how ENERGY STAR symbols can be used. So the US government has trademarked the symbol and all of the terms here in Canada. So right They're I think that's a huge, huge deal. And then we have, for example, a brand book, we have rules associated with how you can use those symbols in those terms. And as you know, Energy Star is a program where we sign partners onto the program and those partners when they're signing as partners in the program, can you define a partner? Sure. So an ENERGY STAR partner in Canada, we call them participants. It can be a manufacturer of a product that's certified as ENERGY STAR, it could be retailers of products that are certified, it could be home builders that build ENERGY STAR certified homes. Most utilities in Canada are ENERGY STAR participants. There are social housing organizations that are ENERGY STAR participants in Canada. And we're looking to the future where we can also sign on commercial building owners and operators, perhaps is ENERGY STAR partners. So an ENERGY STAR participant in Canada is someone who signs an agreement to promote the ENERGY STAR brand, and adhere to brand rules. And there's a number of other things that they do. But it's basically a collaborative agreement where, you know, we do a little bit and they do a little bit, and we all agree that the brand is first and foremost, the most important. So like I said, we have a brand book, we have the participant agreements. The other thing that we'd like to do is provide ready made promotional material that partners and participants can use to promote the brand. So that, you know, the brand is already used appropriately.

Dan Seguin  21:35

So common look and feel

Dianna Miller  21:36

exactly. And then we have you know, I mean, from, from my perspective, we also have a lot of product related brand integrity action. So you know, I'm going to go and I'm going to surf websites to see whether or not somebody is marketing ENERGY STAR certified lawn mowers, right. Because just so you know, we don't certify those. And, you know, I'm gonna go and take a look at whether or not our partners are using the symbols appropriately. So brand integrity is really, really important when you're talking about social media. The other thing is, like I said, you know, we, because we have partners, we depend on our partners to promote the brand just as much as we do. And again, that's providing you know, basic material, like the brand book, to help them understand how they can and can't use the brand, ready made promotional material that they can use so they can engage with us. So I think that goes a long way, and just being consistent. And I think that that's what really helps with consumer awareness and understanding, you know, we haven't changed a lot over the years, the symbol has been the symbol for just about ever.

Dan Seguin  22:38

How do you leverage technologies like video chat bots, to secure that stakeholder engagement?

Dianna Miller  22:47

Not well, yet. Okay, um, you know, we're government, we, we managed to get our energy star, unique ENERGY STAR accounts, about five years ago. So since then, we've been learning, you know, it's been a learning curve. For us, we're now at the point where I think we're pretty mature in our use of Facebook and Twitter, we're learning how to do a few cooler things, you know, we like to throw in animated GIFs. And we like to see what kind of healthy memes we can use to kind of shake things up a little bit. We also know our audience. Um, I think, you know, looking to the future, were trying to find ways to integrate better video, more video, more engaging video, you know, not just the same old, same old, we do shake up our content a little bit. And so that does help. But in terms of onboarding new things, and new technologies, I think the best thing that we can do right now is optimize what we have and and gradually move towards that. But right now, the again, we're government, so we can't really be the first early adopters. But we try not to stay too far behind the pack.

Dan Seguin  24:01

You're on Twitter, what platforms are you on?

Dianna Miller  24:03

so right now we have a French and English, Facebook, French and English Twitter. And in the very near future, we're going to be launching a LinkedIn showcase page under the Natural Resources Canada LinkedIn page. We do use occasionally Instagram, but it's via the Natural Resources Canada Instagram accounts. So energystar Canada doesn't have its own account yet. And we don't have a whole lot of video. So we don't, we don't really do anything via YouTube. But we do have a blog. And it's not an ENERGY STAR candidate blog. It's actually an energy efficiency blog, but I'd say majority of the content has a lot to do with Energy Star.

Dan Seguin  24:43

Okay, now we're going old school with rapid fire questions. Are you ready, sir? Okay. What's your biggest challenge?

Dianna Miller  24:53

professionally, HR. It's hard to it's hard to quickly hire qualified people.

Dan Seguin  24:59

Okay. What makes your brand unique? big sigh?

Dianna Miller  25:08

Um, well, there's a lot of unique things. I mean, you know, energy store is a consumer focused brand. So we're really, really targeting people who are consumers, but it's owned by the government. That's kind of weird in and of itself, I find that that's a very unique aspect. And when that makes it challenging to manage,

Dan Seguin  25:23

what's your department's greatest accomplishment?

Dianna Miller  25:25

Okay, I'm gonna go old school on this one. Okay. I think the greatest accomplishment was back in the 1800s, when we were the geological survey of Canada. I think it's absolutely amazing that the people that worked for the department, then were able to, without satellites, map the topography of what was then Canada, I think it's super cool, what, you know, what they were able to accomplish. And in fact, my younger son was named after Sir William Logan. Okay. And not the x men? No, no, although, you know, he likes to think he was and I just let him. Okay. How do you measure success for your programs? So, um, when I first came to the Office of Energy efficiency, what drew me to it was the fact that at the time, we were running a building retrofit program, and account managers were measured on the petajoules. So pedajoule, being a fuel agnostic measure of energy consumption. So if you were to, you know, sign on, you know, a series of buildings to undertake energy efficiency retrofits, you know, and they could achieve X number of pedajoules of energy savings, that was a pretty big deal. And I still go back to that, I have to say, you know, Energy Star is responsible ENERGY STAR for products is responsible for, you know, between four and a half and five pedajoules of energy savings in Canada per year. I, that's pretty amazing. You know, and I still go back to that.

Dan Seguin  26:57

Okay, very good. Thanks. How do you balance traditional versus social media? What are some of the successful techniques, you guys developed to boost engagement on social media and increase organic, non paid engagement.

Dianna Miller  27:13

So we still do a lot of old school. Partly because ENERGY STAR has a couple of very different audiences, like I said, we're a consumer program. But you know, one of our biggest audiences is our partners, right? Okay. without, without the manufacturers that make these products and design these products without the retailers that sell them, and the utilities that help us push them, you know, we're nothing, they're the ones that actually do the bulk of the work. And so that means that I want to make sure that I'm reaching them. And so we do a lot of traditional work with, you know, just email blasts, picking up the phone and calling them, you know, webinars like, we really do try to work with our partners to make sure that they've got what they need to do great promotions and to push the brand. And then when I look at my consumer focus, absolutely, you know, that's where we try to move into the social media space and be a little bit more innovative. And I think, depending on the audience, our techniques are a little bit different. So one of the techniques that we like when it comes to and just so you know, all of our advertising or all of our engagement is non paid. advertising, advertising is kind of not really possible for us. So you know, everything is organic, one of the things that we'd like to do is, like I said, work with our partners, so our partners get a heads up every week as to what kind of social media activity we're anticipating. We give them heads up well in advance if we're doing major promotions. To give you a great example, we have a promotion that we've done in the last couple of years, called the 12 days of Energy Star. And so leading up to Christmas, probably two or three months away from Christmas, we reach out to our partners and say, Hey, you got anything you want to give away? You know, we'll facilitate that for you. If you want to give something away to consumers. We've got this great, you know, promotion, where consumers can just kind of follow us and like and share, you already have all the eyeballs. That's right. And then and then it's just drawing more attention to our partners, ENERGY STAR certified products. It's a great win for consumers, they're learning something about those products, and then you have an opportunity to win them. So I mean, our followership really increases during that time period. I mean, in terms of our engagement, it's, it blasts just about every record out of the water, in terms of engagement with government, social media, I mean, you know, you got to put the bar where it belongs. But that said, you know, it's it, I think, little tiny things like that, that are that are innovative, kind of get attention of consumers, they kind of keep them on their toes a little bit. And it also is a really great one for our partners because they like to engage with us. It really it Kind of leverages what they're already doing. And so they can amplify our message and vice versa.

Dan Seguin  30:09

How about sharing some simple tips or strategies for our listeners, so they can maybe foster greater I'll say online awareness, but also to keep their audiences engaged? if it's it could be digital, but how do you how do you make that? How would what would you share?

Dianna Miller  30:26

So one of the things that we like to do? First of all, we were super realistic about what we can and can't do, right? So we know what our limits are. And we also know who our audiences are. So I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not probably going to try and reach the 15 year olds, right, or I know who is already going to be interested in Energy Star. I also know that, you know, the greenies the people that are super, super sold on Energy Star, they might be more likely to amplify what we're doing. But I don't know that I'm going to change their behavior, because it's kind of already what we want. So really being serious about who our audience is, and isn't, is also helpful, because I'm not trying to cast a really, really wide net. And staying true to the brand. So, you know, we know what ENERGY STAR is and what it means we know what the look and feel of energy star is, we know that it has to be accessible, we know that it has to be wholesome, it has to be helpful. So just kind of really sticking to that type of look and feel for the brand. But then shaking things up a little bit. So because we know who our audience is, you know, we're happy to throw in a few cat memes, or great or, you know, dogs in a dishwasher or whatever, like I, you know, it's we do want to be a little bit fun, we can't really be edgy, but that doesn't, that doesn't keep us from, you know, making people smile, being a little bit silly sometimes. So, you know, throwing a wrench in the gears as we can being government. But the other thing, like I said, and I and I keep going back to this, because it's so so, so important. We really do rely on partners and partnerships and engagement with like minded organizations and individuals. We're looking at a pilot right now where we're going to start working with influencers. So like minded individuals that you know, feel that energy efficiency is important for Canada and are willing to amplify our message. Because it means something to them. And so, you know, we're looking to maybe be a little bit more innovative and a little bit more creative. But our bread and butter is really knowing who our audiences and what they want from us. Energy Star sells itself in that it already puts money back into people's pockets. It's already recognized by governments and utilities. And so it's, it's, you know, the subject of a lot of incentive programs and rebates. So that in and of itself draws a lot of eyeballs. And then what we do is just okay, we know that people are there to save money. Great. So here's some more tips. Here's other things you can do.

Dan Seguin  32:59

Good. I I'm assuming that you travel a lot within within your job, sometimes. Yeah. If you had to book some, some time on a plane, and you would be in a position to select your dream seatmate. who would it be and why?

Dianna Miller  33:19

Okay, this is gonna be a really boring answer. It would be somebody who falls asleep just like I do. I mean, seriously, like, if my flight is over three hours. I like to have a window seat. I stick my head on the bulkhead, and I and I literally, I just, I put in earplugs. I do, like, I'm so boring. I was

Dan Seguin  33:37

not expecting this. Yeah. Okay. Okay, I hope you enjoyed the old school rapid fire we had a few seconds ago. I'll give it a shot again. All right, with a few more Beatles or Drake, Drake. Cats or dogs? Definitely dogs, scotch or wine? Neither. Okay. Yoga, or CrossFit. I don't exercise.

Dianna Miller  33:58

Okay.

Dan Seguin  34:01

I'm allergic. Okay, Diana, we've reached the end of the podcast. So thank you so much for joining us today. If someone wanted to reach out and connect, how would they do it?

Dianna Miller  34:12

My best advice is to go and I'm not just saying this to brush people off either. It's to go to to go to one of our social media accounts and inbox us or to go to energy startup dc.ca and contact us that way. And the reason being because there's somebody on my case to answer them because somebody actually manages the cap, and they can make sure that I get back to people.

Dan Seguin  34:34

Okay, okay, good. That's fair. And in closing, folks, from homeowners to small businesses, right through industrial buildings, programs are available to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and to help protect our planet tomorrow. And for the future. Check out the ENERGY STAR website. I will have the link on the show notes. Again, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The thinkenergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast Be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #33:

Compared to conventional methods of energy generation, like fossil fuels, greenhouse gases emitted from renewables are little-to-none; making them the cleanest, most viable solution to prevent environmental degradation. In this episode, we invite Brandy Giannetta, Senior Director at Canadian Renewable Energy Association, to discuss renewable energy and the realistic strategies for increasing its supply to permanently replace the remaining carbon-intensive energy sources in Canada.

Related Content & Links:

• https://hydroottawa.com/
• Websites:
  • Canadian Renewable Energy Association https://renewablesassociation.ca/
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandy-giannetta-45872539/

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone. I'm Dan Seguin from hydro Ottawa. And I'll be hosting the think energy podcast. Are you looking to better understand the fast changing world of energy? Join me every two weeks and get a unique perspective from industry leaders as we deep dive and discuss some of the coolest trends, emerging technologies, and latest innovations that drive the energy sector. So stay tuned as we explore some traditional and some quirky facets of this industry.  Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the ThinkEnergy podcast. We've all heard the saying 'it's not easy being green'. But when it comes through renewable generation, is that true? With all the scientific evidence out there, being a climate change denier is becoming more and more synonymous with being a flat-earther. It's clear that humans have been polluting our atmosphere with carbon dioxide and other global warming emissions. NASA, the World Health Organization and the United Nations say we have to change the way we live, work and play. As we face our own extinction, what is the answer? Do we have the courage to be green? Are we okay with it not being easy. That brings us to renewable energy. How easy or difficult is it? How does it improve our health, environment and economy? Where is Canada at? And are we on track to becoming a global climate leader? Are we leveraging renewable energy within the electricity system. And do we have enough new renewable capacity to power our energy needs compared to conventional methods of generation like fossil fuels, greenhouse gases emitted from renewables our little to none, making them the cleanest, most viable solution to prevent environmental degradation. Renewable sources of electricity have powered Canada for more than a century. According to Natural Resources Canada, renewable energy sources currently provide about 17% of Canada's total primary energy supply, with wind and solar as the fastest growing in the country. So here's today's big question. What is a realistic strategy to increasing the supply of renewable energy so that we can permanently replace the remaining carbon intensive energy sources in Canada. And what would the global impact be? Joining me today is Brandy Giannetta. From the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, Brandy is a regional director responsible for promoting, communicating and advocating for adoption of the associations policies, with political representatives, members of government, media, and other key stakeholders and decision makers. Brandy, welcome to the show. Maybe start us off by talking about the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. its mandate and why it's important for Canada.

Brandy Giannetta  03:46

Sure thing! Well the Canadian Renewable Energy Association: We are a national Industry Association is we we see ourselves as the voice for wind energy, solar energy and energy storage solutions, here in Canada with the goal of powering Canada's energy future. So our association really works to create the conditions for modern energy solutions vis-à-vis stakeholder advocacy, public engagement at several different levels. So we are a multi Technology Industry Association and we are new. We are looking again to provide that unified voice for renewable energy as well as energy storage across Canada. So we're the product of uniting what was the Canadian Wind Energy Association with what was the Canadian solar industry association so CANWEA and CANSIA our well-known names as having had decades of advocacy in Canada on behalf of the wind sector in the solar sector in Canada. And now we're one new expanded Industry Association, so very exciting, which also now includes, of course, energy storage. So that's in recognition of that pivotal role that energy storage is going to play alongside those renewable technologies as we look to transform Canada's energy mix.

Dan Seguin  04:59

What is the Canadian Renewable Energy Association's role in transforming Canada's energy mix?

Brandy Giannetta  05:08

Right? So Well, our new joint venture as one's association is really going to enable our members as well as the association itself to secure what we think is going to be a larger piece of the fat future energy pie that could normally have been achieved as single technologies or single entities. So our technologies having common interests in common characteristics will with respect to that policy, energy policy, you know, climate policy, different markets and regulatory frameworks throughout Canada, and really advocating within those commonalities to support the deployment of all of the technologies or solutions. So I didn't mention in the front that we have over 300 members within our association that represent that full scope of the sector. So we're really uniquely positioned to do that as an industry association, but I see some really sort of specific aspects of how we will do that. In what our strategy will entail. And I alluded to a little bit around the advocacy side, providing access to credible and timely information, and industry engagement. So that's an internal process, as well as an F front facing sort of public facing engagement role that will play. So as a national Industry Association, as I mentioned, we will be active at the federal level from an advocacy perspective, but will we're also present in multiple jurisdictions across Canada. So we advocate for policies that focus on that transition to a clean economy, but it's powered by renewable energy solutions. So that's really the key there. What are what are one of the things we'll be working toward is to create new opportunities, but also to remove the existing barriers that are stopping us from realizing those, those solutions and ultimately, that will enhance the deployment of our technologies throughout the country, and what we really consider to be safe and sustainable, environmentally friendly manner, but also a big part of that advocacy side and credible information and front facing side of what we do will be to increase public awareness of our technologies as they stand. But also, most importantly, the benefits that they provide that they're already providing to communities throughout Canada. And across the future, the potential to do even more. So federally, we have, you know, number one priority is to make sure that we're well positioned to contribute to economic recovery, particularly in a COVID situation that we're in right now. But also as a unified voice for the renewable side and energy storage, we're going to really try to help navigate Canada to an emissions reduction targets, we're going to create good jobs, we're going to stimulate the economy, you know, we're going to be present in urban centers and rural centers and indigenous communities. So we have so much value to offer. And as a collective effort, we're really going to try to influence those public policies that are really energy focused and economic stimulus focus to be able to do that. And we can do it because they'll probably say this a lot. We're a really scalable set of resources and when you put us all together, we're really well suited to power that transition.

Dan Seguin  08:03

How is your association positioned to deliver clean, low cost, reliable, flexible, and scalable solutions for Canada's energy needs?

Brandy Giannetta  08:14

Well, I'm glad you said it first, because I think I'll be repeating myself a lot, because that's the key. We're low cost, we're reliable. You know, we offer flexible, scalable solutions. So we have a headquarters in Ottawa, we're nationally, you know, present. But we also have people in the key regions across Canada from east to west and centrally and connect in Toronto. And we definitely look to influence regionally regional policies as well as national policies. And we definitely have a public facing communication side where we're advocating for energy solutions that will leverage the value proposition that renewables and energy storage provide together. So we're going to have what I talked about a little earlier with that internal forum for dialogue for our members that enables us to really collaborate provided opportunities for the stewardship of our technologies but also the growth of the industry across Canada and Canadian economies. So renewable energy and energy storage, as I noted, have a really important and central role to play as we transform our Canadian energy mix. And we see electricity markets adapting to these transformational demands to not only decarbonize, but as a result, electrify new sectors with clean electricity resources. So that reality has really been a huge driver in that tremendous new market opportunity for renewable energy and energy storage together. As we sort of get more comfortable with what that transition looks like and what it entails, our electricity system here in Canada is really going to need increased, actually, I would say significantly increased amounts of renewable energy, energy storage and at the utility scale. So our grids need to be powered by clean supply of renewables backed up by energy storage, and we need to make sure that they remain affordable, reliable, flexible, and scalable, as you noted, so that's going to mean, you know, large utility scale deployment of renewables and energy storage, but also a significant uptake and sort of mobilization of those behind the meter application. So distributed energy resources, for example. And putting that new collaborative framework in place like we've done at our association, is going to fully be able to allow us to fully leverage that opportunity.

Dan Seguin  10:23

Let me ask you this. Is the renewable energy industry primed to enter a new phase of growth driven largely by increasing customer demand and cost competitiveness? Are you seeing a culture shift?

Brandy Giannetta  10:38

Definitely, yes, there has been and it's, it's, I would say, Now more than ever, that we are realizing that culture shift and we're starting to see things materialize as a result of that shift. So ultimately, the needs and the wants of Canadian consumers have evolved but they're continuing to evolve. So you know, energy technologies: these aren't the only thing. It's markets that are innovating. The costs are coming down, as we all know, to a significantly affordable level. Business models as a result are also changing, not just here in Canada, but globally. So it's a global trend. It's not unique to Canada, we are well poised to follow those global trends and capitalize on the learnings and advancements of technology as well as the market and business structures that have evolved as well. So renewable energy and energy storage as solutions. Focused approaches are really increasingly contributing to those electricity grids and energy systems at a large scale, which in that what that means is that we're enhancing the reliability aspect and offerings, the flexibility of the technologies. And because we're super scalable, as I told you, I'll talk about that a lot, because it's certainly an attractive aspect of the advocacy side. The scalability of our energy production and use in Canada and abroad is really a factor there because we can do it at whatever scale needed for whatever system You know, is being sought. So a consciousness about the environment continues to grow alongside that. So we got energy policy and economic stimulus, but we also have environmental policy and the drivers for decarbonisation, and electrification of the sectors that aren't traditionally powered by electricity, like cars and transportation like but a large scale as well as buildings are really increasing the demand for energy solutions that are non-emitting affordable, scalable, flexible, and all of those great things. And that's something that obviously our industries can provide. So our vision really, ultimately is to ensure that renewable energy being solar and wind and energy storage on top of that are playing that central role as we transform the mix so that we can continue to provide those solutions across the board.

Dan Seguin  12:43

Randy, do you believe that renewables like wind and solar can help deliver the Clean Power jobs needed for sustainable economic delivery?

Brandy Giannetta  12:55

For sure, I mean, the calls for an economic recovery right now that are grind Clean Energy and Climate Action are increasingly growing and becoming more prevalent across the across the globe. We've got the International Energy Agency, for example, who called this a historic opportunity, you know, despite the fact that we're in a global pandemic, and there are many crises to manage. We're taking our cues from the International Energy Agency as a proper agency seeking, you know, recognition that we have an opportunity upon us that is historic and in its nature, the International Monetary Fund as well has its leadership has come out to say that we must do everything within our power to make it a green recovery. So right here in Canada, we in particular, are signatories to a public letter, which has asked Canadian governments to pursue a resilient recovery to the COVID situation in particular. So we've got hundreds of signatories representing over a you know, I think over 2000 now, Canadian companies that are right here, you know, headquarters here in Canada that have signed that letter seeking campaign. In order to pursue federal and provincial governments to commit to a clean recovery and resilience plan, so the the renewable energy sector as well as energy storage industries, we're making a case for those policies, energy policies, economic stimulus, packaging, recovery policies that are, you know, threefold, we need to make sure that they're economically timely and long lasting, so right time, right place, and that they are sustainable, making sure that they're environmentally sound. So there needs to be that environmental sustainability attached to those policies. And then eminently feasible, they have to be practical, realistic and actually implementable with a proven success here in Canada or elsewhere. So that we can capitalize on that and truly, you know, make that history that the International Energy Agency has referred to. So our federal government stimulus and recovery efforts in particular, I think our focus right now for us because we think that those efforts can create jobs, they can spur clean tech innovation. They will encourage economic diversification across many sectors, not just the energy sector, but also ultimately we're going to cut carbon pollution while doing that and why not because that illness causing you know, air pollution is something that we can tackle at the same time while we grow our economy. And really what we're looking to do is make Canada more resilient country, and we want to do it on the back of our energy sector. So we really believe that's important. And we do believe that those initiatives taken in support of economic recovery also allow us to address all those significant other challenges like climate change. So it's really important that we invest in wind energy and solar energy and in energy storage at appropriate scales and in appropriate locations, so that we can deliver the jobs, the economic benefits, making sure that today we're realizing those benefits, and then building out that longer term infrastructure that's sustainable, it's going to provide a really strong foundation for a lot more investment down the road. And again, jobs economic activities going to all spur as we as we build out those little as of tomorrow,

Dan Seguin  16:01

so climate adaptation and resilience stand out as rapidly emerging areas of employment as a result of climate change impacts, what types of careers are in demand? And at what rate are jobs in clean energy sector growing?

Brandy Giannetta  16:20

That's a great question because you know, the numbers are there. So we know the stats, and we can say it all those figures. And I'll talk a little bit about that. But the jobs are exciting. And there's no limit to the types of jobs one of the greatest stats that I love. And I check it out every year as the annual numbers come out of the US in particular is the wind turbine technicians and solar technicians that has continuously year over year over the past several years, ranked as one of the fastest growing occupations in the United States. So that's really exciting because that resonates here in Canada as well as we build out our industry. In fact, we did a wind energy supply chain study in Alberta, a few years back and it really detailed the breakdown of the jobs required just for a wind farm in particular And it was varied from the very, you know, technical and professional engineering requirements, geotechnical type requirements siting and negotiation of land agreements, and the regulatory advocacy work as well as environmental side of that. There's also, you know, the broader procurement construction side and you know, transportation logistics, you know, setting up a crane and having that that broader service industry attached to the evolution of the sector. So it's really a significant cross section of very technical and professional quality career type positions, research driven things from environmental sustainability, and then the, you know, the heavy lifting of the transportation and construction side of things. So there's a lot of, we're seeing offshoots of service jobs as well. And one of the large one of the aspects of the solar side, especially behind the meter, and that large uptake of solar installations behind the meter has created a lot of opportunities is very labor intensive. And we're seeing from the solar industry, significant numbers on manufacturing, sales, distribution and wholesale careers. We've got the installation community as well across Canada growing at an exponential rate, operations and maintenance will remain a significant portion of a sophisticated workforce. And then as I said, that offshoot service industry that supplies the services to those things. So as you can see, it's not a shortlist of jobs. It is, is a varied and like I said, extensive list of job opportunities that will continue to evolve and grow. Now, if you want to talk about statistics, the rate that it's growing at, we have already over 300,000 people employed in the clean energy sector in Canada. So that number has continued to grow by close to 5% every year, and it's slated to continue to do so which just to give you some perspective is about a third faster than Canada's economy as a whole and its growth rate, which is just under 4%. So by 2030, the projections that we're relying on today show us that there will be over a half a million Canadians employed and gainful full time lucrative careers in the clean energy sector, across the country. And that's going to be, you know, thanks in part to continued commitment to climate policies, to programs that are supporting robust clean economy type stimulus, and that growth rate will continue to evolve as a result. So it's very good news,

Dan Seguin  19:21

Brandy, in a world where distributed energy resources are increasingly valued. I'd love to hear your views on both the wind and solar value proposition as compelling options and how customers can more actively manage their demand.

Brandy Giannetta  19:39

Right? Well, I have to go back to the old you know, the the reference to scalability, wind energy, solar energy, even energy storage - extremely scalable. What that means, as I as I noted earlier, is that these technologies, you know, they're well positioned to transform our energy system, but they can provide solutions at a micro level or a macro level. So at the micro level, distributed energy resources can be deployed in a number of ways to empower the customers that are seeking those technologies. And then of course, then scaled according to a very unique set of needs as defined by the customers themselves. And they're affordable. So more and more energy customers of all types, as I think I said this already, or they're seeking, you know, clean, affordable, safe, all of those all of those buzzwords and properties and principled approaches to pursuing these technologies as solutions. And ultimately, they're less and less focused on a single technology to provide it. Is it smart? Does it make sense does it fit all those boxes being checked, you know, whether that's wind, solar or storage at the scale that's required. That's really that's the value of that as a solution of these technologies as a solution option, and they're multifaceted. So I think that really there's definitely clear public desire, obviously for clean and affordable as we've noted many times, but those solutions behind the meter, so smaller scale applications, Like rooftop solar panels, personalized home energy storage systems, things like that are going to continue to evolve and provide those solutions at other larger rate. And the innovation behind those distributed energy resources is really what's, you know, allowing us to be poised to meet the demands of today's customers, but we evolve those offerings for the future needs and wants as well. So that transition again, clean, renewable sources, is very important. And the impact for the consumer and ultimately, our economy and environment are what's really driving the value proposition there.

Dan Seguin  21:33

As solar and wind power come closest to meeting three key energy consumer priorities—cost-effectiveness, decarbonization, and reliability—what role will they play with microgrids and self-sufficiency?

Brandy Giannetta  21:50

Oh, great question. Again, all those buzzwords but important ones right. They're really principled realities and, you know, criteria that we're aiming towards So the successful and enhanced uptake of micro grids and self-sufficiency will be motivated as long as we continue to meet those principles and those criteria. So remember flexible, scalable, and portable. So we've got a micro level, you know, distributed energy resource, and we can deploy it in a number of ways. So I talked a little bit about in the previous question about, you know, based on what the customer's needs and wants are. So, you know, some really, you know, tangible examples of that are converting remote communities that aren't grid connected, so they have no wires and no transmission access. And they've been running on diesel generators for decades for generations really. And we're going to convert those to sustainable micro grids, we're going to use solar panels, we're going to use industrial size storage, whether that's batteries or otherwise, and maybe even a wind turbine or two, if it makes sense. You do it to scale. And now you've got a remote community that's self-generating, you know, non-emitting, and it's quite independent. And that's, that's a success story in and of itself. Distributed energy resources, can really promote increased energy self-sufficiency. And through other examples that are a little simpler even like deployment of rooftop solar in neighborhoods, you know, we're going to use it to heat your house your water instead of the electrical or gas hot water heater, maybe you're using it to heat your pool. So you're not running you know, another gas line or gas system in your urban areas, but also providing electricity more broadly like bigger installations on hospitals and colleges and universities and schools like that municipal buildings, all of those are all you know, fall into the bucket of distributed energy resources which promote self-sufficiency and ultimately, renewable energy powered things like charging stations for electrical vehicles is enhanced. You know, I would say ultimately, self-sufficiency, proper and enhanced reliability go hand in hand because you can couple that with energy efficiency, electric vehicles, charging as well as discharging and smart grids and even certain demand response measures. So the list goes on and on. You know, we can unpack them but though it's quite, I would say quite lucrative. And again, it all comes back to the fact that scales scalability.

Dan Seguin  24:09

Brandy, can you help me understand what the role of storage plays in the deployment and advancement of renewable energy?

Brandy Giannetta  24:17

Oh, sure. Well, on a larger scale like utility side, the technologies renewables can be deployed in complimentary ways to supply and support our broader electricity grids. Or they can be used as a co-located or hybrid resource with facilities like wind projects, wind farms and solar projects. Adding energy storage in order to firm that utility scale offering of energy to the grid, so firm power, or capacity, if you will, but by working together, the renewables and energy storage present a broader and more diverse range of not just firm energy offerings, but for customer seeking other things that diversity in tech technology provides scale grid services and other products for lack of a better word to the grid operator. And then ultimately, if you're looking at a smaller scale to the customer, as standalone efforts to enhance the needs that they have identified, sometimes that's offsetting their peak demand use and other aspects and applicability of the energy storage component can be used that way. So, the scale varies large scale utility grid offering to smaller scale behind the meter solutions is a really energy storage in particular, as a technology has a central role to play in that in that transformation to be able to make those solutions tangible and affordable and implementable.

Dan Seguin  25:48

Now for the million dollar question, how is Canada faring as a global climate leader? In your opinion, what is the low hanging fruit and what has the potential to have the biggest impact to the industry and maybe the world?

Brandy Giannetta  26:06

Well, sure, Canada is in a great position already, because we are starting from a spot of having strong renewable and non-emitting electricity base. So there remains also a massive untapped potential for wind, solar and hydro resources to continue to be developed. And so I would say that we're as one of the best countries or countries best position to eliminate our fossil fuel use any electricity generation in particular. And then the abundance of our resources means that we're then also well positioned to support significant increase in non-emitting or renewable electricity supply to power those other fossil fuel intensive industries, like I mentioned earlier transportation and buildings. So we do need to move away from fossil fuels for those other industries as well. And we can do it on the back of the electricity sector in Canada, as it currently stands, but we can also evolve that significantly because we already have the resources. And I think the number is associated with deep decarbonisation and vision that we need to increase our electricity production by two or three times to reach our sort of net zero GHG emission targets. And we already, like I said, have all of those resources available to us to do that. So it's a matter of the will and, you know, transitioning to that, as a global leader, we can really, I think, step ahead of the crowd and shine.

Dan Seguin  27:26

What is exciting you about the renewable energy industry right now?

Brandy Giannetta  27:33

Well, we're on the right side of history, we always have been but now more than ever, I think the stars are really aligning, you know, we've got decreasing costs, our customer demand and knowledge is growing at a rate. I don't know that any of us could have predicted a few you know, a decade ago, that emissions free zero marginal cost fuel, it's never going to go away. It’s here to stay. It’s scalable, it's flexible, and it’s decentralized. All of those buzzwords, which we can unpack any single one of them. That's exciting. But really put them all together. And I don't know, how exciting is that? Like, I don't know if I'm if I'm making the assumption, but I think it speaks for itself, like we are in a really good place right now, for all those reasons, and we need to be excited about it.

Dan Seguin  28:15

Here's my last question, Brandy. What keeps you up at night?

Brandy Giannetta  28:21

Well, you know, I think governments across Canada, you know, they need to take the politics out of the energy sector. And the decision making processes really need to be based on fair and transparent competition. You know, we've all, you know, leveling that playing field for us all and taking the politics out of it, because that decision making process really needs to be aimed at providing the best solution to clearly define problems without the politics and that's not to say there's not a role for governments and energy policy. There certainly is, but sound policy, stable investment signals, those things need to outweigh the politics in order to realize that, you know, progress and innovation it’s so ripe for the picking. And I think our good friend Geddy Lee, a Canadian icon, says it best when he said "progress has no patience, but something's got to give." So those are the things that I stay up at night thinking about.

Dan Seguin  29:11

Brandy, we've reached the end of another episode of the thick energy podcast. How can our listeners learn more about you and your association? How can they connect?

Brandy Giannetta  29:23

Well, like I said, we are new. So we've got a brand new shiny website up and running. It's renewablesassociation.ca. We're active on Twitter and LinkedIn, mostly, we've got Facebook and maybe a couple of other social channels. But we're going to continue to be evolving those sites over the summer in both English and French, which is very exciting and very important to us as a national Industry Association to be fully bilingual. So I would say that your best efforts reach out vis-à-vis our website. We're a small but mighty team, and so we're listed there and you can contact us centrally through the website is probably your best bet.

Dan Seguin  29:57

Again. Thank you so much for joining me today, I hope you had a lot of fun.

Brandy Giannetta  30:02

I sure did. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.

Dan Seguin  30:07

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #22:

Canada’s Electric Highway is now a reality. Petro-Canada recently made a bold move to equip 50 of its retail outlets along the Trans-Canada Highway with electric vehicle fast chargers. This is a great start, but EV owners need a consistent, convenient, reliable and fast means of recharging their vehicles - wherever they travel. Al Cormier, CEO & President of Electric Mobility Canada, shares his take on the future of electric vehicle adoption.

Related Content & Links:

• Electric Mobility Canada: https://emc-mec.ca/
• Al Cormier (Linkedin): https://www.linkedin.com/in/al-cormier-22276617a/

---

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:00

Hey everyone. Welcome to the summer rewind edition of the think energy podcast. While we recharge our batteries during these lazy hazy Days of Summer, we're bringing back some blast from our podcast past, we'll be reintroducing some of the most popular interviews that garnered a lot of attention and interest, perhaps not a coincidence. But they're all focused on the future of the energy sector with themes like renewable energy, green innovation, and being eco conscious. So I hope you truly enjoy our summer rewind edition. In the meantime, have a happy summer. And we'll be back September 6 to kick off another exciting season of the think energy podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to the think energy podcast. Canada's electric highway is now reality. Petrol Canada recently made a bold move to equip 50 of its retail outlets along the Trans Canada highway with electric vehicle fast chargers. EV owners can now drive from the Rockies to the Maritimes. It's nothing short of monumental for Canadian Evie owners. Cities are also investing in infrastructure to facilitate their citizens transition towards electric vehicles. More and more drivers are choosing EV's or electric vehicles, leaving fossil fuel behind and turning to electricity to power their vehicles. EV owners need a convenient, reliable and fast turnaround in recharging their vehicles. So here's today's big question. Canada's electric highway is a great start. But how do we create a favorable environment for Evie adoption? My guest today on the think energy podcast is Al Cormier, CEO and president of electric mobility Canada, here to talk about barriers and opportunities that exist for the future electrification of our cities. Welcome out. Al, please tell us a bit about your organization. And its mandate.

Al Cormier  02:57

Hey, electric mobility Canada is unique. And that is the only Canadian Industry Association dedicated fully to the promotion of electricity and transportation. I founded it in 2005. And I retired from it in 2011. And I'm back at it again. Because the CEO just retired, they're looking for another person. And so it's a fast growing association of about 200 members coast to coast. We represent people from the industry side that build and electric vehicles, product services, software, etc. People on the electrical utility side like hydro hydro, people are the government side, we have several government agencies, federal, provincial, municipal fleet managers, not for profit organizations, EV societies, these are individuals that support EV. So it's a great group. And everybody in the same tent will be addressed all kinds of issues,

Dan Seguin  04:13

National sales of EV's sit at around 3.5%. What are your recommendations to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles in Canada?

Al Cormier  04:25

Yeah, 3.5% is the percentage of new light duty vehicles sales that are electric. So there's over 20 million light duty vehicles in Canada. And at the end of the third quarter of 2019. We had about 150,000 electric vehicles in Canada. So it's a long way to go to replace those fee but that's not impossible down the road. So The market shares two and a half percent. But the percentage of sales was great greater in Quebec and British Columbia, which are very supportive programs for electric vehicles. The three and a half percent is a national number. British Columbia was 10%, Quebec was 7%. So you have to look up but those provinces are doing to promote electric vehicle sales. But they both have a federal financial incentive program. For the buyers of EVs, they have programs to install all kinds of EV charging stations or infrastructure, a lot of public awareness programs. They have bylaws at the local level that require homes to be built rarely for EVs provincial regulations mandating the auto sector to sell a percentage of the sales being newbies, so a host of actions that can help the set of market to be in a good condition for the sale of EVs. Now, last March, a federal budget announced a national incentive program for EV buyers that took place in May, was implemented in May last year, at a bump the sales nationally expect the results final results for 2019. And the next week or so. And I expect that the three and a half percent may well be closer to four and a half 5%.

Dan Seguin  06:42

Quick question now. You alluded to light duty vehicles, the category what are the categories are there

Al Cormier  06:51

light duty vehicles, passenger vehicles, pickup trucks, that kind of stuff. Then, of course, we get into commercial trucks, you know, bigger vehicles, different classes of trucks, there's eight classes of trucks. We get into transit buses. We're going into school buses, we get into charter buses. And we get into off road electrification. We have electrification in the Marine side and pleasure boats, and snowmobiles. We have electrification in the farming level agricultural machinery as well. The mining sector particularly helpful in the underground, where the ventilation problems are an issue. So there's electric mobility is spreading out into many, many sectors. We even have an electric airplane in British Columbia.

Dan Seguin  07:47

when can we anticipate to see a shift from major automakers to enhance their EV product lines? Is it starting now?

Al Cormier  07:56

Well, I think it's fair to say that all of them are in the business are setting themselves up for EVs. We have some that are committing to producing only EVs after a few years time. And right now there's over 40 different models available, not always available in every part of Canada. But the auto industry is a complicated business, to introduce a new model is about four or five years cycle time is designed and tested and whatever marketed and so that they line up their productions this year for next year. So if there's a demand for TVs in any part of Canada, it sort of has to wait till the industry is ready. And of course, some people are not patient enough to wait for that. They've been enacting what they call zero emission vehicle mandates. California, Quebec, and British Columbia are saying that we have a supply side problem. And they're requiring the auto industry to produce as electric a certain percentage of the production over time that that percentage increases to 100% by 2040, in some jurisdiction. So they're being pressured by regulators to produce more of these. They're being pressured by the public the water by worries for economic or environmental reasons. And they have a hard job to do to transition their industry so to speak, to meet that demand, but hopefully, they'll catch up the public demand soon. And supplies should not be an issue.

Dan Seguin  09:53

Is there a typical persona to an EV owner in your experience? What Do EV owners care about,

Al Cormier  10:02

I've been watching this now for over 10 years. And I think the early people, early buyers are people that are what we call the early adopters. They like new technologies that want to try it out. And everything else, they'll go to great lengths to make it work. And the next phase of buyers have been those who have been buying it for environmental reasons, because they're getting more and more committed to reducing emissions and transportation, which is not unimportant. At the national level. Transportation contributes about 25% of greenhouse gas emission. And in major cities, it's as high as 40%. So it's a big problem. So then we have the environmentalists have been sort of the next phase, where we're now seeing people buying these for economic reasons, because they save the average user about $2,000 a year in fuel costs. And of course, servicing costs are a lot less because there's a lot less moving parts and ease and require less servicing. So that's attractive as well. So that's sort of the transition. And of course, in the last year, we've seen a lot of public demand for action or climate change a lot of awareness. And I've started to see some TV commercials from auto companies are awarding their electric big. That's good.

Dan Seguin  11:34

I would love to have your thoughts on the following. Getting more EV's on the road is a practical and effective way for Canadians to reduce pollution and fight climate change. But how are we offsetting EV drain on the power grid?

Al Cormier  11:53

That's a frequently asked question. I have participated in evaluation of this topic. In several cities, including yours and Ottawa. whether an organization called pollution probe and Natural Resources Canada, we examine the current capacity of several major cities in Canada. And basically, they can adopt EV growth, you know, with minor adjustments. Obviously, if everybody the same street buys at the same time, they have adjust a transformer at the end of the street and that kind of stuff. But if you look back, I've been around a few decades. You know, we went from clotheslines to house dryers, clothes dryers in the house that it most EVs will be charged at home at the same power level as the clothes dryer. So the utilities survive the transition cost like clothes dryers. Because it didn't happen all at one time. You know, it's a slow period over a few years. And utilities have also survived the demand for air conditioning. Most homes years ago, were not air conditioning. Now they are. So we've adjusted. And I'm confident that utilities will adjust for electric vehicles as well. And I don't see any major technical challenges. It's as minor system upgrade to the

Dan Seguin  13:27

Home charging. Is it a barrier for the first time buyers is mandatory residential Evie chargers for new buildings a potential game changer. In Canada, only cities, towns and municipalities in British Columbia appear to be instituting rules regarding residential chargers.

Al Cormier  13:48

It's a complex arrangement of rules and regulations. We have the National Building Code that recommends that buildings adopt be ready for EVs. And then in most provinces, we have a provincial building code that regulates everything provincially and illicitly. But in BC they have local building codes as well. So what we're saying in British Columbia is that these municipalities again, because of promotion by the government and EV groups and so on have adopted bylaw changes, and amend their code so that a new home being built should be pre wired not pre wired but preset for EVs. That means running the conduit from the electrical panel in the basement to the garage. So it's very inexpensive to do at the time of construction. Go back and do it later. It could be in the 1000s of dollars. Now we propose that for instance to the Ontario government, and it was well on the way to being legislated the change in the internal code last year, the current government listened to the construction industry, who maintained that there was an expensive thing to do, they would add hundreds of dollars to the cost of new home and should not do it. So the Ford government says, okay, we won't require it. So we hope that that will change in time in Ontario, I believe it's required in Quebec. In other provinces, we'll review that as well. Now, the big issue, of course, are condos, multi urban residential buildings. And we're fortunate that as we do a lot of work and research into that, and the solutions have been identified for condos. In Ontario, we have a law that requires condo boards to cooperate if a resident wants to have an EV charger in the garage, and because prior to that, we had some condo boards that said, we can't be bothered or say no. So a lot of residents of citizens live in condos and a lot more will come in the future. So it's important for them to accommodate that. Our conference coming here at the end of April, we have an all day workshop on that how to do EV charging in condos, the role for utilities, condos and municipalities and so on. So that's sort of the next round of challenges to make it easier for on charging.

Dan Seguin  16:34

Hydro Quebec has for a number of years invested significant amounts of work, effort and money into building a network of fast charging stations in the province, including in areas where they don't necessarily expect that those charging stations would be getting a high adoption on their own. The result. A more even distribution of EV ownership between urban and rural areas. Is a better city charging infrastructure the key to increasing Evie ownership. What are your thoughts on that?

Al Cormier  17:11

I think the main key is quite a lot of public high speed charging stations. Most EVs have ranges now that go all the way up to nearly 500 kilometers per charge. So at most people probably just drive 30-40 kilometers a day. So they might charge once a week. And most charging is done at home. I imagine you have any recharge at home yourself for your car. So but if you want to venture out of Ottawa, you need to assurance that on your trip to Cornwall, or Montreal or Toronto that you'll have these charges on the way. So those have to be public charging station, they have to be level three, the high speed charging, so you can charge most of your batteries within within 15-20 minutes. So and of course we're seeing that being adopted now by canadian tire and selling it at their stores, Petro Canada's doing it cut back on the lot in their province. And you bought two activists closer to that a BC. So it's becoming an accepted practice. And the federal government is looking for another 5000 such stations on major highways in Canada. So I think that the the best strategy to promote EV growth is an extensive network of EV fast charging stations across the line. Because private static charging be largely done at home or at work. And so it's when you mentioned the longer trips that you need that assurance.

Dan Seguin  18:57

At least 1/3 of Canadians live in a multi unit residential building today. And that number is not likely to decline. Increasingly, the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today are multifamily. In Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Are there solutions for Canadians discouraged from buying electric vehicles because they have no easy means of charging them either in condominiums in apartment buildings or homes that lack a driveway or even a garage.

Al Cormier  19:41

Yeah, yeah, all of these things are being looked at. And as I mentioned for condominiums, there are technical solutions out there. A lot of companies will come in and set up a charging system in the condo manager and so on so forth. And electric utilities are good on how to deal with condos, assess the condo electrical system capacity and come up with an easy process for the EV owner, the condo to buy and use and charge and EV. It gets complicated because when you buy a condo in the building, you're assigned a parking spot, typically underground or on this side parking lot. And that parking spot is tied by law to your suite. So you can't say move your car to a parking spot near the electrical panel. So you have to run power to the car parking spot. But it's not insurmountable, not all that expensive. So the condo solutions are there. There are companies promoting and assisting condos to do that. They are legislation in some provinces encouraging or requiring condo boards to collaborate and help out. And then we have the other issues and older parts of cities we have people that have cars that park on the street, no driveways, no garages, Some out of Montreal, some out of vancouver, even parts of Toronto, and probably even parts of downtown Ottawa as well. And in those areas they are technology where a charger can be placed on the sidewalk or next to the sidewalk on the street side of the sidewalk so to speak. And people can charge then pay for their electricity depends on the parking arrangement on the street.

Dan Seguin  21:36

Do you believe that EV adoption is directly tied to provincial or federal financial incentives for EV buyers?

Al Cormier  21:44

very strongly tied? Yeah, we saw that in Ontario when they stop incentives. In 2018, the sales dropped by about 40%. So because EVs at this point in time costs more than regular car. These incentives help offset the cost difference. And that's the same with any new technology. As the sales volume go up and production levels increase, the per unit cost will go down. And there are strong predictions that perhaps in five years or less electric cars will charge costs the same as an ordinary car as a gasoline engine car. So these incentives are important in the meantime, to help offset the cost difference. And we clearly see the evidence of where they exist. sales go up where they don't sell. So then

Dan Seguin  22:44

do you think the electric highway will move the needle?

Al Cormier  22:49

Very much so like the electric highway? I guess the term really means highways, we're charging stations along the road so people can travel with the worries of running short of electricity. Yes, it's that's why the major companies like Suncor, Canadian tire and others are investing the government's investing in those facilities along the highways. And that is we'll remove the constraint from the viewers the range anxiety, they're afraid that they'll very rarely choose they get out of town. So the electric highway is very much important. And it is moving the needle already.

Dan Seguin  23:39

Here's a good one for you out. What's your view on the role municipalities play in the electrification of transit

Al Cormier  23:49

well transit across Canada are a municipal responsibility. And of course the municipalities buys the buses or light rail or whatever, or all the rail systems in Canada are already electric, so there's no worries there. And new ones being planned are also coming electric. But on the bus side. The emissions from diesel engine buses is not insignificant. And then major transit hubs like Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal, you have a lot of densities of buses, the city centers that are contributing significantly to pollution. So it's incumbent upon all municipalities to look at alternative technologies. They are hydrogen buses being developed. But that's a little bit down the road. We already have the electric buses we have to two companies, three companies making electric buses and Canada. One making electric school buses as well. So we have a lot transit system buying electric buses and trying it out. And the success rate so far has been quite good. The federal government is hoping to see the end of diesel engine buses in the near future. And a total switch to electric buses, that we encourage that so municipalities obviously have to go along with this thing and plan accordingly. And the funding levels from provinces in federal government, or the purchase of transit buses have to change to accommodate electric buses as well.

Dan Seguin  25:39

Can you talk to me about the EV 2020 conference coming up?

Al Cormier  25:43

Yeah, that would be our 11th annual National Conference taking place in Mississauga at the end of April. And we're already very actively involved in developing the program for the conference. And it's the place to be if you want to talk about automotive learn what's happening is electric mobility technologies, policies, etc. Or what's coming down the road. We have about 500 people from across the country that attend these things, marvelous exchange of information, strategies and policies, particularly among the municipalities and utilities that don't compete with each other. We even have exchange within industry members, some are competing with each other, but they collaborate. And we have speakers coming from universities, research centers, industry members be talking about I would say 1520 major project types dealing with policies, dealing with technology, dealing with trends, and we'll have 15 technical sessions, but about 45 to 50 speakers, seven or eight major plenary sessions, a trade show, where you see the latest and the greatest. So it's the place to be out.

Dan Seguin  27:16

Thank you for joining me today. If someone wanted to reach out to you and connect, what should they be doing?

Al Cormier  27:23

Well then go to our website, www.emc-mec.ca or just click Electric Mobility Canada and they'll take us to our website, lots of information there. Or anyone can call me 416-970-9242.

Dan Seguin  27:41

Again, thank you very much. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. You're welcome that thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The think energy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydro ottawa.com backslash podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #36:

If the Wizard of Oz was remade for the 21st century, Dorothy might now declare: there’s no place like a net-zero home. And she’d be right. But would she need the Wizard to grant her wish for a net-zero home or would Dorothy be able to afford one on her own? In this episode, Kevin Lee – CEO of the Canadian Home Builders Association (CHBA) - tells us what it means for a home or building to be “net-zero,” the pros and cons, and what the CHBA is doing to make net zero homes an affordable reality for all current and aspiring homeowners.

Related Content & Links:

• https://hydroottawa.com/
• Websites:
  • The Canadian Home Builders Association - https://www.CHBA.ca
• Linkedin: Kevin Lee - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-lee-bbb49782/
• Twitter: Kevin Lee - @CHBAKevinLee

---

Transcript

Dan Seguin  00:42

Hey, everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. Dorothy said it best: "There's no place like home." Now... If the Wizard of Oz was remade for the 21st century, Dorothy might now declare there's no place like a net zero home and she'd be right. But would she need the wizard to grant her wish for a net zero home, or would Dorothy be able to afford one on her own? On today's podcast, we're going to talk about the 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions that Canadian homes and buildings release into the atmosphere every year. And we're also going to talk about how net zero homes and buildings are combating climate change from foundations to rooftops with each new build. Designed and constructed to produce at least as much energy as they consume, net zero home buildings are up to 80% more energy efficient than typical new homes. The key difference is that a net zero home uses renewable energy to produce the energy it consumes With a growing demand from energy conscious House Hunters looking to make their environmentally responsible choice for one of their biggest life purchases. What do they need to know about purchasing in net zero home? Who are the builders? What impact will net zero home have on the purchase price on their future energy bills? What renewable energy system is the best option? Or are there government subsidies or incentives? In short, how can more and more Canadians take advantage of living greener and more energy efficient? So let's get going with today's big question. Is there any real movement whereby net zero homes will become the new standard in the next decade and what will it take for the industry to get there joining us to shed some light on net zero Homes is the chief executive officer of the Canadian Home Builders Association. Mr. Kevin Lee. Kevin, would you mind giving us a brief description of your background, what the Canadian Home Builders Association does, and why do you think net zero homes and buildings are the future?

Kevin Lee  03:25

Well, my background is that I am an engineer with a master's in architecture. And I've worked in the housing fields my entire career, I ran my own consulting business for about 11 years and energy efficient housing, construction and research and development. I also worked for the federal government for several years running housing buildings and community research and development programs, as well as doing running programming like the R-2000 program. The energuide rating system for homes program the eagle energy retrofit homes program. So big background anon and I've been the Chief Executive Officer at the Canadian Home Builders Association for the past seven years at CHBA, as we call it. We represent builders and renovators and developers all across Canada as well as the suppliers and trades and services that support residential construction. And we work together to improve the performance of houses, improve the relations with governments to help. One of the big things we really pushed is housing affordability and making sure people can afford to buy new homes as well as afford to rent homes and there are obviously lots of challenges these days with the cost of housing. So we spent a lot of time on that. And we do have a net zero energy housing council that does work on net zero energy homes and advancing that we have a labelling programmer we have had to label close to 400 houses across the country now over the past couple of few years. And in terms of the future, with respect to net zero, we've always as an industry and as an association been leaders in energy efficiency we do incredibly well in balancing the performance - Houses today are, you know, more than 50% better than they were 25 years ago. Sometimes I hear people say, Oh, they sure don't build houses like they used to do, which I would always respond.: "Well, thank goodness!" We continue to do better and nowhere is that more true than in terms of energy efficiency. How far we're able to go with respect to net zero and under what kind of timeline I would suggest is very much a function of costing and affordability because investing in a net zero home is a great way to invest your money and in your home and there's a lot of benefits, but it's still not cheap. Definitely costs a little bit more and when it comes to regulations, we're always trying to think about affordability. So from the association perspective, or I was trying to say: Okay, well, yes, we want to make homes better, but we also want to make sure people can still afford to buy them. So let's find like most cost effective ways and cost efficient ways. And let's try not especially this day and age, and when we build such good new houses, how do we make sure that we don't increase the cost of houses with every code change that we make?

Dan Seguin  06:25

Okay, Kevin, what's the difference between a green home and a net zero home?

Kevin Lee  06:31

Well, when we talk about net zero energy homes, you're talking about a house that produces as much energy as it needs over the course of the year to sort of net out at zero, and certainly in Canada with our cold climate, you can expect that in the winter, you're probably going to be using some energy, more solar than you're able to generate, but on other times when you don't need as much energy - Typically in art programs as through solar energy, you're able to create surplus energy that you're able to feed back into the grid and net zero. So that's a net zero energy home. A green home tends to encompass many other things that will almost always encapsulate energy efficiency. But it'll also look at things like green environmental products, especially in different roofing materials, that kind of thing. So green tends to encompass a little bit more than net zero. And while many of so in our, in our case, in our program, we really focus on the energy efficiency piece. So, you know, builders do add a lot of other special features to homes that would be green, but the big differences the green is more about the broader environmental, whereas our net zero work is very focused on the energy efficiency.

Dan Seguin  07:45

When building or renovating to net zero standards, what are the key considerations you should start with? Are we talking everything from walls, ventilation, foundation, windows, and more?

Kevin Lee  07:59

Oh, absolutely. I mean, certainly when you're driving to get down to basically using close to zero energy, you have to look at everything that uses energy and that can, you know, save energy and be efficient with energy. So every element of the home, as you said, walls, ceilings, foundations, windows, mechanical systems: hugely important. So you have to look at all of it and where do you start? Well, frankly, if you're a homebuyer, you start by looking for a builder with the experience and know how to do this and even through our programs. And we follow, we use the energuide rating system, which is a government of Canada system and label for measuring the energy performance of homes. And there are energy advisories that are certified by the Government of Canada to do that. And we provide those energy advisors additional training, to work with our builders to be experts and getting all the way to net zero. So they're sort of recognized through our program through additional training and education. So really, as a homebuyer or a homeowner, because we now have a retrofit program as well for renovating houses to get to this level. Really it's finding the right finding the right contractor homebuilder, you know, you can look at CHBA.ca. And you can find a list of our rent renovators and our home builders that are certified, they know what they're doing. And they're working very closely with an energy advisor who works on the design because like I said, when you're trying to get to net zero, you're talking about squeezing every ounce of energy you can out of that house. And it's every element. So it's not so much that you start one place. You look at everything.

Dan Seguin  09:36

You touched on this earlier, but wondering if you could further demystify for me, how does a net zero home produce as much energy - clean renewable energy - as it consumes?

Kevin Lee  09:48

Yeah, well, and I did touch on that earlier. So I'll go back to that. And the idea is that again, especially in Canada, it's a little bit tricky, you know, when it's very cold, you know, you're going to have to use some energy. Typically in our program, the renewal Bull energy that is used is photovoltaics or, you know solar panels, on the roof generating electricity. But when it's when it's really cold, you're probably not going to be able to generate enough energy to meet the entire heating load of the home. As well as all the other loads that are going on: ventilation. We plug a lot of things in too, we're charging a lot of cell phones and all these other things. There's a pretty heavy what we call base load these days as well. So what you're trying to do is make sure that as you look at the course of the whole year, you're producing as much energy as you need. Sometimes you might be producing surplus energy. Sometimes you may be using a little bit more energy than your system can produce, but overall, you net out at zero through the course of the year.

Dan Seguin  10:48

Okay, Kevin, I'm wondering if you could dispel any myths around the cost associated to building a standard home compared to a net zero home. Is it significantly more to be net zero?

Kevin Lee  11:02

I think probably the biggest myth would be if somebody said it doesn't cost anything because it definitely you know, we're talking about you know, different technologies you're talking about things like moving from standard double pane windows to triple pane windows, you're talking about being more insulation walls, sometimes building you know, fatter walls and using you know, more lumber or whatever your material is to build more, so there's definitely an additional cost. Some of that clause is defrayed by your energy savings, which is great over time. And so it really varies it depends on your climate, it depends on the size of your home, it depends on the design of your home and those design features. You know, some people like to have lots of windows probably we all love having lots of windows are actually one of the more expensive things though, and they also are tend to be a bit of a heat loss. If you have lots of windows, you might have to spend money in other places. So is it more expensive? Yeah, absolutely it is. It's part of the reason why we say before we get this into regulation, we want to make sure we continue with a research and innovation and costing to bring those prices down. And then when it comes to how much more is it going to be, it also depends on what's the baseline construction standard of your builder. Some builders build the code, which is adding their energy efficiency measures in the building code, and that's still a very good home. Others build the levels like the Energy Star program, which is a little bit higher. So your jump from ENERGY STAR to net zero or net zero ready is a little bit less. So that's not a very direct answer, because it really varies and you can't say it's 5% 10%, etc. It really depends. But it's definitely a great investment. And for people who are looking to stay in their home a long time looking are conscious about climate change and the environment, want a more comfortable home because the nice thing about a triple glazed window just as an example as you sit beside there's practically no condensation. You're right comfortable sitting there. And it's like in the winter. So a lot of good reasons to choose to invest your money that way. And it really comes down to working with your builders to figure out, you know what those costs are going to be.

Dan Seguin  11:58

Is there a net zero movement in Canada? Is it in the response to climate change science now showing that in order to have a real impact on carbon emissions, reducing isn't enough, we essentially have to neutralize our environmental footprint.

Kevin Lee  13:29

I think that the energy efficiency movement has been going on in Canada for a long time. And you know, we developed the R-2000 program back in the 1980s, in response to the oil crisis prior to that, and then as climate change and environmental concerns have grown and grown, there's been a constant movement of improved energy efficiency, and energy performance of houses and net zero is really that ultimate goal. And as concerns about climate change, continue to escalate, obviously, every sector of the economy needs to do its part to get there. And homes are a big part of that. I will say that, you know, we can definitely get to net zero from every house in Canada built that way, at some point. As I said, it's really about at what point are we able to do that where it's not making it too expensive for homeowners. And the other really critical thing when you're talking about climate change and GHG emissions from housing, it's the very much the existing housing stock that's really critical. The new houses are very efficient, we can make them more efficient, the returns are diminishing a little bit though, and the more energy efficient, you make it the less you get in terms of savings over time. But the existing housing stock and especially the older housing stock is so critically important and that's why we've added renovation to our program and we always recommend to governments things like there should be a home renovation tax credit for energy efficiency, so that people in their existing homes can improve them and we can help defray the costs that,

Dan Seguin  15:04

Kevin, we've covered renovations and new builds. What about apartments and condos? Are they a challenge or an opportunity?

Kevin Lee  15:14

Well, you know, as with every challenge, of course, there is an opportunity. So a little bit of both, for sure. We can, again, you know, the technology is there, it's a little trickier, with big buildings because you tend to have more units in them and not as much surface areas. Actually, for renewables, you know, you need a certain amount of surface area on the roof for photovoltaics and the solar systems that would go on them. They also tend to have a lot of glazing, windows, people like to have, you know, their exposed walls to be all glass if they could have it in many cases, and that glazing is often the weak spot in in energy efficiency. It looks great, but it tends to be not as efficient as a nice thick wall with lots of installation, but the technology exists, it really comes down to the cost and also potential and those types of systems, you might have to have your renewables off site, or you might be looking at your company draw renewable energy from another place rather than trying to be generating it all with the building itself. And frankly, we also think that that's a big part of, as, you know, we look down the road to the future for net zero homes, you know, should every house be generating its own? Or will it make more sense and will it be more effective for there to be more community systems that generate the renewables and you don't have to have it on your individual unit, I'm going to do a home it could be nearby. So the power generation or renewable power generation is also going to be a big part we think of the future as we move towards sort of net zero economy at large.

Dan Seguin  16:53

You’ve alluded to this earlier. There's a variety of home energy performance standards to make homes more energy efficient, are you able to expand on the Canadian Home Builders Association net zero home labeling program? How are those standards baselined?

Kevin Lee  17:12

Well, when we set out to develop our program, we wanted to go with sort of tried tested and true rating system. And so, as I mentioned, we base our program on the government of Canada's energuide rating system. That system has labeled over a million homes in Canada. It's backed by the Government of Canada, there are energy advisors trained and certified by the Government of Canada. So that we feel like that is the system to use. The Energy Star program uses that as well. The R-2000 program uses it as well. So the energuide rating system is sort of the point system that grades how much energy you use, and then programs like energy star and our net zero label are points on that scale, if you will, that you're trying To achieve to show a certain level of energy efficiency. And this is the kind of thing that was also used through the equal energy retrofit homes program, a grant program run by the government that through that program, over 600,000 homes are renovated and each one of those dots and energuide label as well as the nice thing about the existing home side of things. And that renovation path is the energuide. Label also provides the homeowner full report on where they can go with their house to make it energy efficient. So you kind of get this pathway, which we think is really important because you can't always afford to do everything on a renovation at the same time. But the energuide system allows you to plan over a few years to do maybe not maybe you can do your windows this year, you're doing insulation in the basement and sealing the next you're going to replace your furnace and three years, whatever the case may be, but you can sort of see that pathway laid out so we really feel like the inner guide rating system is super important. We also think that it should be the rating system for every home in Canada and every program, I often use the analogy, boy, if we have all different rating systems for nutrition labels, it would be very difficult to imagine if you if you went to buy mushrooms off the shelf at the grocery store and you pick up two cans, and it's two different energy labels and you can't compare you wouldn't know which one to buy. And so we're big proponents of saying let's use the energuide rating system, it's the Government of Canada. Let's get that on for all programs, so that everybody can compare and we can what we need to improve in Canada is energy literacy for consumers. It's hard sometimes - it's an invisible thing, energy efficiency. So good labeling and information would help everybody make the decisions.

Dan Seguin  19:39

Okay, time to dust off your crystal ball. What are some of the emerging technologies, innovations that hold much promise for the future of an energy efficient and a net zero home? What's exciting you right now in the industry?

Kevin Lee  20:00

Well, I think you know, what's exciting is that we have within our membership, leaders in the industry all across the country that are working together to find the solutions. And the interesting thing about a home is its builders putting together all of these different technologies and making choices and using energy advisors to help them and make those choices. So I think what's exciting is that everybody's working together. And we're also working together to innovate, and also identify to manufacturers, what are the next things we need, especially to make the energy efficiency componentry even less expensive, so it can be more readily available to everyone. And so whether you're looking at there's some very one of the most important things in energy efficiency is air tightness and air sealing to avoid air leakage. And there's some great new technologies coming in to help make that easier because it's one of the most important things and also one of the most complicated things. Think about every  penetration if you own the house, whether it's your, your cable guy or your, you know venting for gas appliances, or there's always lots of things popping in and out of what we call the building envelope, as well as it's hard at floor-wall intersections and wall to ceiling intersections. Anyway, there's some very interesting technology coming out for air sealing. Another thing that's very interesting is net zero energy homes. Sometimes joke, you can eat them with a candle. So you need very little energy. And interestingly, our heating systems and even our cooling systems are built for bigger loads are built for bigger houses or even a house with things that uses more energy. So optimizing our mechanical systems for really small loads becomes very important, as does then the distribution of that air around the home to make sure that the temperatures are always balanced. And then there's also the opportunity to integrate ventilation smartly into those sorts of combination systems. Things that we still need to do you know, and would be great to find solutions for in research and development. You know, if we want to pack more insulation in the walls, we really need to have more effective R-values, those are called like, basically we've sort of hit a limit right now on how much how much insulation we can put in a wall, and then you have to build a fatter wall. But building a better fatter wall becomes more expensive, it'd be really great if let's say within the standard two by six wall, you can put insulation in still what ends up being five and a half inches, but it had what we call greater, much higher R-values. So you'd have to build a thicker wall, you just put better insulation inside. So those are some of the directions that we're headed, I'm looking for a very good technology to build the stuff right now, but we're constantly innovating and we know we need more research and development to work together with and the government's always been a big supporter of that and housing because our industry is made a lot of small organizations, we don't have the Fords and the Mercedes and none of the world that have been r&d shops themselves. So collaborating with government to find these solutions that are more affordable is going to be really important as we move to do more and more of these over time.

Dan Seguin  23:14

And let's take this from R&D to behaviors, what kinds of lifestyle changes are required within net zero home?

Kevin Lee  23:23

Well, I think the great thing about energy efficient homes is they tend to not require any lifestyle change. Energy Efficiency is about being more efficient using technology and construction techniques so that you can live in your home and enjoy it. I always draw the distinction between energy efficiency and energy conservation. Energy conservation is taking a shorter shower, turn down the thermostat, and wear a sweater that's conserving energy. Energy Efficiency is about using technology to make sure that you can still do the things that you like to do, but the houses energy efficient in the first place. Now, lots of people who buy a net zero home are very energy conscious and environmentally conscious as well. So they'll probably elect to do lots of other things. They're probably very avid recyclers and composters and maybe they will turn down the thermostat just because they want to save even more energy. But the nice thing about energy efficiency and net zero homes is sometimes you can't even tell that it's an energy efficient home other than maybe, wow, this is a lot more comfortable than the other house. There's no draft. I can sit beside my windows and I feel really great. There are a lot of benefits and lifestyle benefits, but you typically don't require lifestyle changes.

Dan Seguin  24:41

Despite demand for greener homes. The majority of homes built in Canada continue to be built to a minimum standard. Why is there a disconnect between housing desires and what is actually constructed? Will we see a time where building codes could force all new housing to meet the net zero standard. What does the future look like?

Kevin Lee  25:07

Well, I think we need to be a little bit careful when we say there's a disconnect between code and what people want, because you also have to add in what people are willing to pay for. So there are a lot - So for example, we already have in our net zero program, and the Energy Star program has existed for a long time, known as quite successful. But as we've talked about all through this, it's a little bit more expensive to build to these standards. And so people have a choice and they often choose and I've spent my whole career working in energy efficiency, and sometimes it's been frustrating because homeowners rightly have the choice. What do they want? Do they want to have a hot tub? Do they want granite countertops? Do they want more space? Do they want to pay more to live closer to town or, or do they want to live a little further away from town where it might be cheaper, and then on top of that, you've got to save If you want a more energy efficient house, it'll cost more. And you're sort of doing these trade-offs  within your budget is why we're so keen on making sure that energy efficiency standards are also married to technology that makes it not more expensive, so that people don't have to make that choice, and in terms of today's minimum requirements through the building code, they're actually very good. And they continue to improve and they're much higher than they were years ago. So when will the code end up being net zero? Well, we would suggest that that should be at a time when you're not causing affordability challenges for Canadians especially for first time homebuyers. That of course you have to build the code, social housing, and even social housing,  ask a social housing provider why they're not building to ENERGY STAR net zero standards. And the reason is because it's very expensive for them, and they're more important for them. It's just to put roofs over people's houses and so it's that that trade as it's happening right now, and it's why we're really pushing for advancements in technology so that it's not more expensive. So we can, when the regulation comes, we're not causing affordability challenges so we can get there. It's just a question of when.

Dan Seguin  27:15

So until net zero homes become the standard, what are some simple things that people can do to improve on to make their existing home more energy efficient?

Kevin Lee  27:26

Well, the first thing I would say is, you know, think of it holistically. And there are various programs that will supplement the cost of having an energy advisor come by, but really that the best thing is to have an energuide rating system evaluation of your home, and that'll give you the big picture. Sometimes people think for example, that, uh, you know, I just, I should replace my windows and usually you're replacing windows because the seals shot at that point and they're starting to get milky and there's some condensation or whatever, and it's time or maybe wood windows and there's been condensation And the paint is chipping, you know, I want to I need to get the window. Turns out that if you ask an energy advisor to come in and do an energy analysis, he or she'll probably tell you that you can do that and you'll get good enjoyment out of that. But for a fraction of the cost, you can actually just go and blow a bunch of cellulose insulation in your attic and you'll save twice as much energy and so you know, looking at the insulation is a big thing but I would start with an energy assessment to have somebody come in and tell you all the things you can do but through the you know, air sealing is really important. Insulation in the attic is tends to be cheap. Go up through the attic hatch, blow insulation, you're good. Obviously insulating your basement  is a good one to do. It's usually accessible if you have an unfinished basement and does have the benefit of all that improved comfort. Obviously if you have old mechanical systems and old furnace and old water heater, replacing those tends to be a really good move as well. So there's lots we can do lots we need to do over time to help us. We're hoping through the economic recovery that hopefully we're going to get into very well over the next little while that the government steps forward and helps a little bit with what we're recommending would be a tax credit that really incentivizes people to do this. And the other thing I have to say is, when you go to do this stuff, hire a reputable contractor. It’s not worth getting the cash guy to do a side job ladder off the back of the truck, save a few bucks, there are so many risks. So we have a whole get it in writing program that we promote. If you go on our CHP website, it just talks about the pitfalls of not getting a contract, not getting receipts, not getting warranty, all the things that we should all do with your house is probably the biggest investment you'll ever make in your in your lifetime. Let's make sure we take care of that and protect ourselves. So just hire a reputable contractor. And if you're looking for that list, you can go on our website at chba.ca and we list our members all across the country.

Dan Seguin  29:57

So Kevin, I really think this is worth repeating where can folks learn more about net zero homes and find a list of builders in their region?

Kevin Lee  30:06

Yeah, absolutely well, so we are the Canadian Home Builders Association, and our acronym is CHBA. So if you go to CHBA.ca, or frankly, if you just Google net zero in Canada will pop up on your Google Search pretty much at the top. And on our website, there's all the information there's information about buying a new home, there's information about renovating, renovating the home and making smart choices. And there's information about our net zero program and a full list of all of the builders that we recognize through our program across Canada. So you can find a builder in your region that would be more than happy to work with you and more and more so renovators as well I could help you get on your pathway to getting to net zero.

Dan Seguin  30:51

How about we close off with some rapid fire questions? What is the one thing you can't live without?

Kevin Lee  30:59

I think it's music, I love music. I'm a bit of a musician. So let's go with that.

Dan Seguin  31:03

What is something that challenges you?

Kevin Lee  31:06

To try to change the world in positive ways, and it's fun to work on that every day. It's a never ending challenge for all of us. But trying to make good, solid contributions. We have a better world and a better Canada is a big challenge and something I love doing.

Dan Seguin  31:22

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Kevin Lee  31:26

It would be too slow time. I don't have enough time to get everything done. So I would be able to just freeze time, get a bunch of things done, and then turn time moving forward. Again, that would be that would be great. Even for doing hobbies. I don't have enough time to read. I'd love to stop time and read a couple of chapters every once in a while.

Dan Seguin  31:47

If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?

Kevin Lee  31:52

Well, I would tell them the same thing that I'm telling my kids - which is, you know, do the best at everything that you do this work put in the hard work. It will always pay off even if you think it won't. If you're working on something that you don't enjoy, get it done, do a good job on it. And you'll be surprised down the road when, even if it's 'Wow, I hated doing that. I never want to do that again'. Well, you learned it, you did a good job. Yeah, work hard and put in the effort and have fun while you're doing it. Find the fun and everything.

Dan Seguin  32:24

What do you currently find most interesting in your sector?

Kevin Lee  32:28

The most interesting thing in our sector right now, I think is the challenges that we're facing with affordability and trying to make sure young Canadians and new Canadians can afford their homes. We have a lot of things that are driving up the prices of new homes and, and mortgages and mortgage rules have been tightening, making it even more challenging. So finding that right solution that will really help people become homeowners and get into it. While we also are continuing to try and improve all homes. We've spent this whole time talking about energy efficiency, but we want to make sure it doesn't cost more so people can afford owns that. That whole affordability challenge, which our members are working on all the time, I think is the most interesting and the most challenging, but a huge opportunity because we know, almost every Canadian either owns their home, but two thirds of Canadians own their home and most renters wish they could and hope they will one day you know, so helping to achieve Canadians dreams, I think is a huge opportunity and a huge challenge that we're all working on.

Dan Seguin  33:28

Well, Kevin, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. Last question for you. How can our listeners learn more about your association? How can they connect?

Kevin Lee  33:43

Yeah, definitely check out our website at chba.ca. All the information is there. We are also structured as an association with provincial and local associations as part of our organization. So we have local associations all across Canada. And pretty much every urban center and so that's another place that you can connect very locally with the members of our organization that can help you with your housing dreams.

Dan Seguin  34:12

Again, Kevin, thank you very much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers. Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcasts. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Cheers, everyone.

---Join us for our Summer Rewind series as we feature past podcast episodes!--- EPISODE #15: Smart buildings have the potential to consume less energy, generate less waste, and provide better quality spaces for their occupants. But just how practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies and can they actually improve the bottom line? Terry Young, Vice president of operations at KRP Properties sits down to talk to us about the rise of smart buildings and the importance of training his employees on the ever-changing technology.

Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:44

Greetings everyone and welcome back. This is Episode 15 of the ThinkEnergy podcast. We spend our lives in buildings at home at the office, community centers, shopping malls, movie theaters, and the list goes on. We're also surrounded by smart technology and gadgets, smartphones that can turn on the heating in your home before you get there smartwatches that track how many steps you take each day. Now that smart technology has made a remarkable entry into commercial office building space. Enabled by technology smart buildings have the potential to consume less energy, generate less waste, and provide better quality spaces for their occupants. Did you know buildings produce 17% of Canada's greenhouse gases, including emissions from generating electricity that buildings use. modern buildings are equipped with 1000s of sensors recording air quality, humidity, motion, temperature and the presence of noxious gas, light carbon monoxide, formaldehyde. These sensors continuously record energy consumption and waste. Smart algorithms running on network computers, analyze sensor generated data in real time to keep the building systems running at peak efficiency while the air is clean and fresh. So here's today's big question: Smart buildings lead smart cities. How practical is it for building owners to adopt these new technologies? And can they actually improve the bottom line? Our guest today is Terry Young, Vice President of Operations at KRP properties. He manages a portfolio of over 30 commercial properties in Ottawa's high tech hub in Kanata. Welcome to the ThinkEnergy podcast,Terry. So what's your take on this smart building trend? What are some of the technologies you've adopted in your own buildings?

Terry Young  03:02

So I don't even know if I'd call it a trend it is a "must-have" moving forward. Basically, what we've tried to do is try to understand how our buildings, use the utilities, be a gas, be it utilities, gas, electric, and or water, and try to understand how that from an energy perspective is being used. But how do I make my clients comfortable. So we've sort of broken it down into three things. safety, comfort and energy. That's how we kind of run our buildings. So some of the technologies that we've put in place is anywhere from, you know, low voltage, DC lighting, LED lights. We've put in, state of the art building automation systems, we run artificial intelligence, the IoT devices, there's millions of them. We've tried probably millions, and we don't have millions, but we've you know, we play a lot in the space to try to make you more comfortable burning less energy.

Dan Seguin  04:07

Quick question, how does AI fit into that? You just talked about artificial intelligence.

Terry Young  04:12

Yeah. So I could I could talk here for like five hours on this. This is my thing. I love this. So what we found is we get data coming in from the sensors and the IoT thing. So we talked about earlier on, how do you maximize the efficiency of how you're running a building? You say, Well, I can turn off the lights at four o'clock when people are going absolutely. But how can holistically you look at how the building's burning its energy and how you're maximizing the comfort to the fourth or fifth decimal place. And this is where AI comes in. So we feed all of the data that we get in from the sensors in our buildings, and we feed it into a data analytics platform. And what that does, it understands how the building is really being used by the people in the building. Okay, and I'll give you a quick example. So if you've got an r&d department who meet every second Thursday, for instance, and what the building will do, it'll start understanding the trends of how that room in that section of the buildings being used. So if it's not being used, the building's going to say, Well, I don't need to light it, and I don't need the air condition it properly. So if I'm only going to do that, if indeed, they use the building, so over time, trending will actually start to occur and the analytics takes over to automatically lower the temperature, turn off the lights, etc. Likewise, these guys are going for pints and they're trying to bugger off every Friday, not that never ever happens, where the building sort of starts understanding that he'll start shutting the lights down three o'clock. Yeah. So So basically, we've been very forced in some of our buildings, you know, putting this AI stuff in, we can save 27, even up to 30% of energy just by turning this stuff off.

Dan Seguin  05:59

Okay, well, that actually flows nicely into the next one. And maybe you have something to add. So the question was around, how does it work? And how does it help make your building minimize energy costs, support the electricity grid and mitigate environmental impacts?

Terry Young  06:18

Yeah, again, great question. And it's quite loaded, and has many levels of answers. So I'll try to simplify it. Minimize the use of every electrical device in your building. Basically, if you have another example, if you got a 60 horsepower motor on the roof drive and a fan, for instance, what that does is now this technology will say I don't need the full 60 horsepower. So at three o'clock in the afternoon, maybe we need 22 horsepower, or six horsepower. So we put variable speed drives in variable stuff. And again, remember, this technology is understanding holistically how that fan works. So you only will use the minimum amount to maintain your comfort. So ultimately, what will happen is twofold. One, you're going to burn less energy full stop. Among other things, and this is where the math is, is sort of very hard to quantify. I don't replace it normally. So if you have a useful motor, you have a useful life and say 18 to 20 years on electric motor, for instance, that's under normal conditions, I've minimized those normal conditions now with the software. So what happens is, I don't need to spend $300,000, or whatever that huge amount of investment from a capital perspective, to buy a new motor 18 years, I maybe want to push that to 22 to 25, you expand your life expectancy, here's the thing, the amount of energy and the amount of everything carbon and everything to build the motor, I don't I'm not throwing it out. I'm not building a new one, I'm actually trying to save and extend the lifespan of what I have already.

Dan Seguin  08:01

The only thing is maintenance.

Terry Young  08:03

Exactly. And again, again, they come back to the artificial intelligence, predictive maintenance. So this is the artificial intelligence gives us the ability to predict based on trending analytics now, so we actually be able to maintain and operate even when I say 100 times better, literally 100 times better than we did before.

Dan Seguin  08:21

So these improving these system efficiencies, like event, venting and lighting you're talking about does actually affect the bottom line, and I would assume in a positive way. And also with regard to your your carbon footprint.

Terry Young  08:37

Yeah, well, so so not to get too technical. But the more efficient, you can run a building, obviously, the less money that you have to spend to run it. So right, that's the bottom line number. Likewise, you create a brand when you run a building like this, that people want to be there, and they're willing to pay a premium sometimes to lease this space in a building like that, because their operating costs are lower, and they're more comfortable. So it's good business, very good business.

Dan Seguin  09:07

Okay. What are some of the potential barriers, though, to the adoption of smart building solutions? Like I mean, are there any talk to me maybe about return on investment? Maybe the inconvenience factor downtimes to get that set up?

Terry Young  09:22

Yeah. So not too much downtime, return on investment, certainly. What probably the biggest, if not, it's not anything, it's usually about the money to do this, how when, where all that kind of stuff we can play with, but coming up with the million dollars or the 350,000, or whatever it is. That's the biggest problem have. Some of this technology, the payback is not even quantifiable. For years, 10 years, 12 years. I'm a finance guy. And that doesn't make any sense. So, you know, after seven years, there's not really a return. So we try to, you know, put if, if it's any less than three years, it's a pretty good business. Sort of decision, the biggest besides the money is, and again, before I continue to number two, there are specific financial institutions that were specialize in this too, by the way. So if you gotta if you've got a building, or you're in the space where you don't know exactly what to do, and you don't think you have the money, most of our lending institutions, now they do have specific people who understand the technology and are willing to loan you money to buy the technology, because that's what they're really specifically, their expertise there. So there's divisions of these and the big all the big banks have divisions now. And we often get third party financing from these guys. Okay, so that's one, the financing check. Number two is we're having a big issue with HR. So it's one thing to put in a great system, and it's amazing, who's gonna run it. So at the end of the day, you still need a smart human behind everything. So you know, we often say, Well, you know, working ourselves out of a job, never, you will always always need somebody to understand the number and how to run it. So, you know, most of our workforce is probably like, in everybody's outfit. You know, they're 55. And over. Yeah. And so we're bringing a lot of this technology in, and we were struggling trying to find the expertise to run it.

Dan Seguin  11:27

Yeah, that was that was one of the questions actually, that I had, now that you have this advanced technology in your buildings? How do you convince the operators that you have in hand, to join that smart workforce? And how do you recruit, are they are they there yet? Do you have that workforce available?

Terry Young  11:47

No, I don't have a fully, you know, our workforce is is again, probably 60% is over 55 years old, we have adopted a lot. What we've done is we've had to change the way we do business a little bit. So when we purchase something, we don't purchase just the thing, I purchased training for the thing. Okay, you see how that changed a little bit. Now, he come back to the economics now. So the ROI, because I've just increased my bill a little bit. But in order to maximize like golf lessons, and I use this example, 1000 times, so I buy a brand new set of ping golf clubs. And if I give that to a person who doesn't know how to play golf, the ball is still gonna be in the woods. Yeah, it's best to buy the big golf clubs and get a golf lesson or two. Yeah, it's worth the 1200 bucks, it really is. And this is where we are right now. So we've done in all of our building automation systems, or AI, I bring the guy in, bring the boys in, and we have, here's how I can make my client because we're very, you know, we're, it's almost a personal thing for us. And so it's our clients, it's my clients, if I can make you more comfortable by sitting in some training and doing a little better job, that's what I'm going to do. And most of our guys are very, very dedicated like that. So you know, training, training, training is the key. And at the end result, when we look and we and I obviously bring numbers to all this and benchmark this. We're doing better. So we make our clients more comfortable. And by burning less energy, life is good. That's basically our job. Cool, you know?

Dan Seguin  13:17

Yeah, will optimization of these systems provide data that can translate into actionable asset repairs or replacement?

Terry Young  13:26

Oh, absolutely. Oh, I did. Yeah. Yeah, no, we're a lot. I wouldn't say all, but a lot of our capital investment that was based on analytics. And basically we break these numbers in. And we can cross reference that now from a financial perspective, see, understand how much from an operational perspective we've been spending on a certain asset class, be it a fan or a motor, something like that. And then the analytics have come in and say you've repaired this 66 times you have 88 service calls, heat and cold calls. There's an issue, there's a and you know, you there's a red point here, you should look at replacing this, because there's a couple of parameters that aren't looking good. Now, if you didn't have some piece of software, looking at this, there's no way that you could, you know, we have 10s of 1000s of devices, you'd never be able to do that. But this AI stuff, when you open the screen, it actually comes up with a green, red and yellow. So if it's red, we got to look at it. If it's green, we're good. And it sort of categorizes in a hierarchy perspective, what I need to look at exactly and remember every point is being looked at so I know right down to the thermostat if there's an issue.

Dan Seguin  14:39

We're talking a lot about the technology but you have these providers also they're closely linked to that the building automation systems of this world if you want, are you able to expand on your partnership model to execute on your smart building strategy?

Terry Young  14:54

Oh, absolutely. The reason the only reason why are successful is because We have great partners. And shout out to you guys as well. The Hydro Ottawa guys, we budget and we look at what we're going to do based on your recommendations and your expertise. You have teams of really smart people, get them around the table, they're more than happy. They're some of the smartest guys in our business. Ask him for advice. What a concept. You know, so we literally get partners, and that's exactly we don't have vendors and clients and we got partners sit around a table, and we got lots of smart people. We got building automation, guys, we got cybersecurity guys, i t guys, utility guys. And they're all wanting to try to make a difference. So you sit around a table, you put a sort of a pathway, and you can It's amazing. What what can be achieved with smart people around the table. And then so you layer then the finance piece, you layer, the analytics piece, you layer the smarts, there's no way you can make you the right decision has to float to the top. Okay? So you never you don't second guess yourself anymore. So if you have to spend a million dollars or 5 million, whatever it is, you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, you've made a really good decision because everybody around the table is in the same direction as you are.

Dan Seguin  16:20

Let's look at the other side of the spectrum. All those good decisions. But is there something that keeps you up at night? What makes you nervous?

Terry Young  16:31

Cybersecurity? You know, I sit on a pile of boards, and we have a conference every year with real calm, which specifically understands how the operational side of the building operates. We're all online now. Okay. And it's vulnerable, in certain circumstances, how you are online from a building perspective. So there's, there's bad guys in the world, unfortunately. And, you know, for whatever reason, they're trying to be destructive. And how you can sort of solve that, or how to barricade those bad guys to come. You know, because you don't want your clients, you just want to keep lights on, keep them warm. And some bad guy wants to stop that, unfortunately. So we put up a pile of sort of cybersecurity and firewalls and a whole pile of IT things that some, again, one of our IT experts, sort of helps us out with, but at the end of the day, I'm worried that as we get further and further down the line, everything is online, everything, you know, there, there's a cybersecurity issue, and that there's a cost to that. And so we got all this data is out there, we have our buildings are our clients, sorry, rely on us as landlords to ensure that, that they're safe, and their lights are on and their their heat and cold. So, you know, as we get more and more technologically advanced, we have to combat that every single day. The building of yesteryear was, don't let the guy in by the electrical switch in the electrical room, lights are still going to be on. That's not the case anymore. You know, you're going even this bill is probably no light switches. Most of our buildings don't so if you you know, so that that's that's probably what keeps me up the most.

Dan Seguin  18:32

that was very informational. I appreciate this. Listen, thank you very much for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed it. I did. If someone wanted to connect with you, what's the best way?

Terry Young  18:42

Hey, my phone for sure. call my office KRP properties or [email protected]? Absolutely. I have a LinkedIn profile as well. And I enjoy speaking on this topic. very passionate. Yeah, I Well, I like it, it's better. The buildings that we run are better because of it. And I think as a society, and as a community, we're very fortunate to have very tight knit community. If we all chat, which we do our carbon footprint as a whole as our industry can drop, because we're just doing things a little better, a little cleaner, so I can learn from somebody they can learn from us how to do a little bit better. I think we can you know how to eat an elephant one bite at a time. So I think we're going to do really good things here.

Dan Seguin  19:25

Thanks again. Tori. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Hey, folks, thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, we'd appreciate a rating on iTunes, or maybe even tell a friend or a colleague. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Peace, everyone.

The race is on to reach Canada’s target - net-zero emissions by 2050. This is a relatively aggressive timeline, so what should businesses be thinking about now? How do we future proof commercial properties and other industries that are large-emitters for the net-zero future? Glenn Mooney - Manager of Energy Services at Envari, joins us to share his knowledge on sustainable energy solutions and the practical steps that businesses should start with.

Related Content & Links: 

• Glenn Mooney - Manager of Energy Services, Envari 
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenn-mooney-4656265/
• Envari Energy Solutions - https://www.envari.com

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:02

Hey, everyone, welcome back to the ThinkEnergy podcast. Canada's climate plan has put the country on track to not only meet but exceed its 2030 Paris Agreement emissions reduction goals. What's more, Canada is moving entirely to net zero emissions by 2050. A lot of Canadians embrace this approach citing the environment and climate change as major factors. But there are some that will require a heavier lift than others to achieve these future net zero targets. For some, that means planning now. The Paris Agreement target is less than 10 years away, and 2050 isn't so far into the future as it sounds. With only three decades to go. The finish line is closer than we think. The International Energy Agency released a report stating that these goals will require rapid scaling of energy efficiency, renewable energy, and electrification. The Government of Canada has introduced new funding and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector promising 3 billion to establish a netzero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. The pandemic has given all of us the opportunity to rethink our energy habits, lifestyles, our impacts on the environment, and of course, how we work. Think of all these office towers that have sat empty for more than a year. And the discussions that are being had about the viability of remote work versus returning to the office. A lot of companies and industries are in uncharted territory. Will tenants return to those office towers? Add to this the expectation to meet emission targets by making investments in their properties. And there's a lot of uncertainty, but perhaps also opportunity. So here's today's big question: How do we future proof commercial properties and other industries that are large emitters for the net zero future? Our guest today is the manager of energy services for Envari, a subsidiary of Hydro Ottawa, which offers large scale sustainable energy solutions for businesses, governments and other utilities. Dear listeners, please welcome my friend Glenn Mooney. Glenn, this race to reach net zero emissions by 2050 seems like a mission tailor made for the expertise and services of your organization. Perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself, what drew you to your current role? And what does Envari do?

Glenn Mooney  04:00

Sure Dan, thanks. I'm kind of the old guy. So I've been around the energy business for a long, long time I started way back in, in the nuclear world. So I actually worked in the Bruce at one point and then I moved into energy efficiency, Sustainability. I worked for the old Ontario hydro, I worked in performance contracting for a while. So energy management's always been a path that I followed. And it's kind of brought us here so I was actually here at the start of Envari or what used to be Energy Ottawa energy services. So we got to kind of build a business around just needs in the business world with supporting customers in areas that they didn't have support. And so I like to call it concept to commissioning so we do anything that's energy or sustainability related, we do from the analyzation side two studies. We really love to build projects. So that's kind of where we go we commissioned projects we do work in a lot of fields, energy, electric vehicles, battery storage, lots of lighting, tons of lighting, HVAC, building automation, anything sustainability or energy or greenhouse gas, data analytics and presentation, we build generation projects. So we touch pretty much anything that is energy resources: electricity, natural gas, water, steam. We've been involved in that.

Dan Seguin  05:22

Now, Glenn, what's the first piece of advice you would give to municipalities, large commercial property owners, and those in large industries about these emission reduction target dates of 2030 and 2050.

Glenn Mooney  05:38

That's something I think a lot about these days and as a person that's been doing this for a little bit longer than some, 2030 is not that far away, that's nine years away. So if somebody is giving you some targets for nine years from now, you better be thinking about it now. And 2050, that's not that far away, either. If we think back to y2k, or 9/11, that wasn't that long ago. So it doesn't take long to cover 20 years. So when we're making our decisions, we need to be thinking about that.

Dan Seguin  06:04

We know the final goal is net zero by 2050. That can seem like a huge hurdle for some, but with three decades to get there, it's more of a journey. Where do they begin? Let's look at this through maybe a strategy lens, planning, forecasting and investments.

Glenn Mooney  06:27

Yeah, and I guess if this thing is just think it through make it part of the new vocabulary, because it's something that we haven't thought about. And I'll be honest, we've all kind of pushed it off a bit. We know what's been coming, we've talked about it coming for quite a while, but we don't want to overreact on it, but we need to make it part of our thought process. So any decisions that we have to do in our buildings that involve, I'll say something mechanical things that building equipment, if you're making decisions on it factor in these target dates of 2030, or 40, or 50, or whatever it is in your world, or your owners world or your shareholders world, and make a part of your planning process. Every time you take a look at something and you have to make a business decision on it. Think about it, stay in tune, get informed, get some help if you need it, but help make wise decisions. Because these you only get one chance to do it right now.

Dan Seguin  07:17

What's a good game plan to adopt now, that will get results, but also save them money in the long run? Is it benchmarking and setting actionable, achievable goals that can be done along the way?

Glenn Mooney  07:34

Absolutely, just have a game plan, set yourself out a roadmap doesn't all have to be done this year. But a lot of times the goals are getting set for us. So our owners or pension funds that own buildings, or shareholders or governments or whatever institution, whoever we work for whoever's setting our marching orders, they're setting our goals for us, we don't want to get behind that ball, we want to be up in front of it. So yeah, find out where we are, let's get some get some help qualifying the impact of the options that you have before you, if you've got something, as I said earlier, you've got a piece of equipment that needs to be changed for whatever reason, figure out what the impact of it is. And it may not, it's a different business model right now, it may not always be that best cost solution or best payback solution. But we need to take a look at it, plan it out and avoid what they call lock in, don't if you replace something today, like for like and it doesn't fit into your carbon plan for the future, you've probably made a 20 year decision. So that piece of equipments gonna last 20 or 25 years, you don't get to make that decision again. So you've kind of locked in that missed opportunity for 20 or 25 years. So if you do the math on that now we're talking 2040/2045. So if people are putting pressure on you to reduce your greenhouse impact, and you're putting in equipment that is just like for like and not moving sticks, then those are things we need to think about. A big part of the carbon world is just it's reducing greenhouse gases. So a lot of times natural gas is great fuel. It's not as great for climate as maybe electricity is because we live in a very low carbon electricity, world and material here. So it's finding ways to maybe do better. And I'm not suggesting replacing gas boilers with electric boilers, because you probably can't make the business case for it. But you may want to look at things: We can talk about them heat pumps, things like that, that use electricity more efficiently, or use less gas. So that's one of the things too is always the less you use it but the less you pay for it, the less impact you have on the climate world.

Dan Seguin  09:45

Okay, Glenn, what types of investments would you recommend from the owners of Canada's largest commercial real estate properties and from municipalities? What should they invest in now versus later?

Glenn Mooney  09:59

Well, that's actually the heat pump is a good example. They don't fit everywhere. I'm not there's no one solution for this. It's just think about it. What are my options? So what are not but the other side of that equation are what are natural gas price is going to be? So the federal government's been pretty clear that they're moving up the carbon price on natural gas to $170 a tonne by 2030. That's not that far out. So what impact is that going to have on the natural gas impact? Because you're probably basing your decisions right now on what natural gas prices are today, you need to look at what they might be in the future. There is a focus on electrification. So what can I do to use electricity more efficiently in my building, and maybe less carbon negative products if you want to use that term. So things like the heat pumps, envelope opportunities, making your envelope using again, like using less, sealing things up better automation, controlling your building more, so that you're only using the energy you need to do the purpose it's intended to new age factor approaches. So again, those might be challenging business cases, but get some help making those decisions.

Dan Seguin  11:07

Now, looking for some tips, Glenn, what are some untapped or low hanging fruit options that folks either haven't thought about or considered that you would recommend?

Glenn Mooney  11:19

I always go to my, if you don't need to use it, use less of it. So that's the number one thing, the cheapest option is the pure conservation. Take a really good look at how you use energy in all forms. And find out ways that you can reduce the amount of energy use things like lighting, still a good option, like LED more efficient lighting, turning lights off when people aren't in spaces, HVAC, managing your automation system so that you're not using energy in hours that the building's unoccupied, we still need HVAC, we need to provide air and there's a lot of focus on that these days with little COVID situation but use it wise. Other technologies are coming along, I keep kind of going back to heat pumps, they they may be a more expensive option right now. But we're seeing a lot of movement in costing and we're seeing a lot of movement in performance. So there may be as a good business case to look at some of the newer technologies like that.

Dan Seguin  12:16

Great segue here. Certainly, technology changes quickly. But there's a lot of tech that exists today that can help building owners and municipalities prepare for the future. What are some out of the box ways that today's technology can help?

Glenn Mooney  12:36

I keep harping on cold climate heat pumps, we've we've done a lot of work with them lately. And just the the performance levels and even the last three, four or five years they've improved and they're being built for Canadian environment, we're not your typical environment globally, where minus 30 minus 40 some days in the wintertime. And what we're finding is we're getting these, these heat pumps are starting to perform well at minus 20, even minus 30, some of them even at minus 25. So we're we're getting a lot more efficiency out of these products. And I think with adoption, we're going to start to see the pricing come down. They already have quite a bit right now. And there's some really good technologies out there right now,

Dan Seguin  13:18

Glenn, the Government of Canada has just introduced new funding, and new initiatives to help support the commercial sector, promising $3 billion to establish a netzero accelerator fund to help large emitters reduce their emissions. What are some of the highlights? And what should clients know?

Glenn Mooney  13:40

So great programs in this, there's quite a few out I've just even in the last month, I've seen the three or four announcements of different programs for different applications. So great programs, a lot of money on the table, those are billions, not millions. So that 'b' is a big factor. So I think it's going to drive a lot of change. I think they'll be more programs coming as well. And they tend to be more sector specific or industry specific or building types. So you're gonna start to see more tailored programs, I think coming out. Bottom line, know what you want to do have your roadmap in place, plan for it, get a little bit of help, the one thing we are finding with a lot of these incentive programs is there needs to be a really good justification built at the start of it, which may take a little bit of energy modeling, creating a benchmark that they can actually assign the performance part of the incentive to. So that's quite often a little intimidating for customers. So that's one thing that we spent a lot of time doing. They are usually post project incentives. So you do need to put the capital aside. It's a call it a rebate or an incentive after the fact. So you want to make sure that you've done everything properly. You don't want to jeopardize the incentive. So read closely. They are there's some pretty good programs out there.

Dan Seguin  14:56

Now can you give us some examples of work Envari is doing and how you've helped clients reduce their energy usage and save money?

Glenn Mooney  15:06

Yeah, sure. The we're spending a lot of time right now doing deep retrofits. So a deep retrofit is to go into a building. Look at every way that it uses energy, find out how to reduce A) the amount of energy. So you need to, in lots of cases get at least a 25% reduction, which is a challenge, it's not easy. Also looking at what can I do with fuels to get more climate friendly, reduce the footprint and then reduce the GHG. So the deep retrofit, it starts with a study, it has to be integrated, everybody has to be involved, because it does affect operations in a lot of cases, too. So you need everybody at the table to, to work through it. It is a big process. And it looks at things like the envelope. Things like heating and cooling. So we've done a lot of work with electric boilers. And again, not not the need to replace everything on electric boiler. But there may be places where a smaller electric boiler serves a purpose. And it can be maybe dispatched on price signals when it's when it's cheaper to run electric boiler and make sense to run it then run it. Things like that, again, the heat pumps everywhere he comes through, they're kind of a unique thing because they provide you heat, but they also provide you cooling. So the air conditioning is part of that. But they also allow you to move heat around. So in commercial spaces or institutional spaces, heat pumps quite often can take heat from one area, put it somewhere else or take cool and put it somewhere. So it can be a whole ecosystem in and of itself in a building. We're doing three schools right now where it's driven by ventilation improvements based on COVID. But the heat pumps are there, we're offsetting baseboard heat with the heat pumps, we're adding cooling to a lot of spaces that didn't have room which is ideal in schools, we're putting in a lot of energy recovery ventilators or heat recovery ventilator, so let's not waste that heat. Let's not dump it outside. We need the fresh air. But let's use the heat that's in that air, not let it leave the building so that we're maximizing as much as we can. And that's all underpinned by a building automation system. So a lot of emphasis on good building automation, proper schedules, proper strategies, do everything you can to use as little as you can. And then lighting, we do a ton of lighting, indoor lighting, outdoor lighting, it's a big part.

Dan Seguin  17:22

Okay, let's now fast forward to post pandemic. What is your prediction for commercial real estate? Will people return to the office towers downtown like before? Ultimately, what do you hope these emission targets will achieve for companies and municipalities? Will they be required to innovate plan for a sustainable future and control costs?

Glenn Mooney  17:49

All of the above, it's going to be a challenge. It's it's we're in such a strange time right now. It's obviously it starts with a lot more awareness of ventilation in your buildings, people we didn't talk that much about it before, we just assumed that we had lots of fresh air, but COVID has really highlighted that and put a spotlight on it. So I think building owners have a lot of they need to pay a lot of attention to that because I think their tenants or their users or the community, whoever's in their buildings are demanding that and it's gonna be a struggle to balance those dollars because we've we've lost opportunities over the last year, we've incurred a lot of costs over the last year. Now you're asking what society is asking for us to spend more and more money to green our fleet of buildings and more value to our shareholders, our shareholder want to see us reduce our carbon footprints, as well. So it's going to be a lot of planning. And that's the thing is, everybody needs some help. There's a lot out there. I don't think anybody has all of the answers. I certainly don't. But I think it's going to take a little bit more thinking than we've kind of riden through in the last few decades with just in general with energy management. And again, I can't stress enough be careful with your decisions do not lock in equipment for 20 or 25 years and lose an opportunity to meet your long term goals.

Dan Seguin  19:08

Okay, Glenn, what's exciting you right now about the energy management and energy solutions industry

Glenn Mooney  19:17

it's it's just really disruptive right now it's it's a challenge to balance energy efficiency with electrification it's counterintuitive at times like it opposes each other you've got you know, you use less, use cheapest use, you know, reduce greenhouse gas is just so many variables out there now that we're all trying to manage. It's not an easy task. And the landscape, it's changing, it's going to change for the next few decades like this is I've done energy management for 30 years I've kind of seen progression from you know, I started in the days they were you know, they said go electric, which is, you know what is old is new again, but what they meant there is get your oil furnace out and go to an electric furnace will go electric Now has a totally different meaning to it. So the other thing is 2030. A lot of goals are set for 2030. That's only nine years out. And if anybody's been working for a few years, nine years flies by very quickly.

Dan Seguin  20:13

Okay, we're just about done here. Glenn. How about we close off with some rapid fire questions?

Glenn Mooney  20:21

Ready to go?

Dan Seguin  20:22

Glenn, what is your favorite word?

Glenn Mooney  20:29

I don't know if I have that. I know a lot of words through COVID. I haven't been crazy about like, pivot and something to do with COVID. I guess just optimism. I just, yeah, I like people that are optimistic. I like when people use that word. And that's the driving force behind what they're trying to do.

Dan Seguin  20:47

Now, what is the one thing you can't live without?

Glenn Mooney  20:52

Early on in COVID are working from home, I bought noise cancelling headphones. And I can't believe how valuable they have become in so many different aspects of my life, not just sitting in front of my computer for work, but going for a walk and just listening to music and just drowning out street noise.

Dan Seguin  21:09

I like that. What is something that challenges you?

Glenn Mooney  21:13

Oh, I'll make it recent COVID I find with COVID not just me, I think everybody, there's just so many balls up in the air. And I think the biggest thing is just try not to drop too many of them, you know, you're gonna drop some of them, pick them up as quick as you can and get it repaired.

Dan Seguin  21:28

Now, Glenn, if you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Glenn Mooney  21:35

Probably not to bore people. I find, you know, listening, listening teachers is a lot more than talking. And I guess I'm always trying to be cognizant of that. I'd rather I'd rather listen to what people say than to always found my opinion on them.

Dan Seguin  21:49

And if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell him?

Glenn Mooney  21:56

People that you always think that don't get it? People like I am right now. They've actually seen a lot. They've learned a lot. They've tried a lot of things. They're not as dumb as you may think they are. But the other side of that is don't grow old and cynical, because that's the one thing I've really tried to avoid. Keep learning. Like I have 18 great nieces and nephews and I learned more from them than I learned from most people in my life. So stay young. Have fun.

Dan Seguin  22:21

Okay. And lastly, what do you currently find most interesting about your sector

Glenn Mooney  22:29

Change. I've, done energy management for over 30 years, I have never seen a rate of change like there is right now. And right behind is  a rate of technology development for energy storage, electric vehicles are coming we're all seeing that come quick - discussions like we've just had, we now have to rethink how we do things in our buildings. And in our life, just it's things are changing very quickly. It's gonna be a fun next decade.

Dan Seguin  22:54

Well, Glenn, we've reached the end of another episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast if somebody wanted to connect what is the best way

Glenn Mooney  23:02

our website Envari.com please reach out, reach out. Always happy to chat.

Dan Seguin  23:11

Thank you for joining us today. I truly hope you enjoyed this episode of The ThinkEnergy podcast. For past episodes, make sure you visit our website hydroottawa.com/podcast. Lastly, if you found value in this podcast, be sure to subscribe. Anyway, this podcast is a wrap. Cheers, everyone.